Evolution and the Conservative

Photo of hydrodynDM.
By hydrodynDM | June 22, 2007 - 17:29 ET

Evolution and the Conservative

I hold conservative (or maybe libertarian) views on most topics. However, as an agnostic, I often find myself at odds with the views expressed by some conservatives – particularly when the conversation turns to the topic of evolution. I decided to try to put together an argument to suggest that there is, in fact, no real need for those of faith to attack evolution theory. I should make it clear, that this post is NOT an attempt to convince anyone that evolution is true and that it should be accepted. In fact, if you do decide to read this, you will see that I’m actually going to argue for something like the opposite of this.

I should first point out that I have nothing against those who hold strong religious beliefs. As an agnostic, I don’t believe in the existence of God but I also don’t reject the possibility. In a nutshell, for whatever reasons, I’ve never found the faith to believe in a supreme being. I view this as the result of the details of my life, not the result of some deep philosophical ideas that force me to intellectually reject the idea of God. It seems to me, that belief in God rests on faith and you can’t force faith. You have it or you don’t.

Consequently, I’m not very impressed with the tendency among many liberals of bashing those of faith. Generally, I find it immature and I tend to view the practice as being motivated by a desire to convince others (and themselves) of just how smart they are(1). In particular, many liberals argue for the “truth” of evolution as “scientific fact” and use that attitude to paint people who believe in creationism as being ignorant, in denial or just plain stupid. The problem is that most of those same liberals don’t really understand science, so their arguments tend to rest on false assumptions.

Similarly, I’m not very impressed with the attacks and criticism I see made by many conservatives against evolutionary theory. Again, from what I’ve seen, the problem generally stems from a misunderstanding of what science is.

So here goes…

What science is and isn’t

Well, obviously I can’t really answer this in full. First, I don’t really have the background (that’s for philosophers) and I don’t have the desire or energy to devote the hundreds of pages it would take just to get started. But I do work in a scientific field (and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) and I have thought about this a bit, so consider this my (very simplistic) take on the topic.

First, science isn’t really about discovering the “truth”. Aside from the fact the there isn’t a generally accepted definition or theory of “truth” (notice what seems like a contradiction in that statement), the business of science is to put together models that hope to describe the empirical world in some way. I use the word “model” on purpose here. Others might use the word “theory”, but I think that word carries too much baggage with it. Using my terminology, Special Relativity is a model that attempts to describe the behavior of macroscopic objects and Quantum Mechanics is a model that attempts to describe the behavior of microscopic objects. Models are not the things they model. They are a kind of replica. They attempt to mimic some part of the thing being modeled. No model is perfect. There are always some differences. And so it goes with scientific models. They are models of the empirical world. They are not the empirical world. That last sentence seems obvious, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say something like “well, it has to be that way because such and such a theory said so.” No! The world is the way it is – regardless of how we describe it or what we say about it. Scientific models hope to describe its behavior. They don’t dictate its behavior. Given this view of science, it seems natural to reject the idea that scientific models (of sufficient complexity) are “true”. They might be good models or bad, but not true.

On top of that, I’d like to suggest that in principle, it isn’t even possible to “prove” as “true” any scientific model (or theory). This view stems from a consideration of the manner in which these models are created – they are built up from empirical knowledge.

Empirical knowledge – information we get about the physical world around us through our senses (or using instruments that extend our senses) – is inherently limited in space and time. To use an old example, it is difficult to show why I should accept the statement “all crows are black” as true when neither I nor any other human has actually taken the time to view every crow in the world at any given moment to confirm this. Yes, every crow seen so far has been black, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that every crow is (or has to be) black. You can use the same kind of argument (as David Hume did) to question the truthfulness of a statement like “the sun will rise tomorrow”. Just because it has for as long as anyone can remember, doesn’t mean that it will (or has to) tomorrow.

To get a bit fancy with the terminology, scientific models involve the creation of general statements from a finite collection of empirical statements using induction. This is in contrast to the way math works. In mathematical systems, you can prove that some set of statements follow logically from some other set of statements (taken as true) via deduction. In these kinds of systems, you can say that some statement is “proven true” in light of the axioms of the system. But this doesn’t work in science. The crow and sunrise examples above allude to what is called the “Problem of Induction”. In a nutshell, there is no way to prove that any given scientific statement (model or theory) is true beyond a shadow of a doubt since, ultimately, these statements are based off of a limited number of empirical observations (which might, themselves, be flawed).

As an aside, I differential models from singular empirical statements. I recall seeing an argument where the validity (or soundness, to get technical) of the statement “the Earth revolves around the Sun” was debated. Although you can see this as the basis of the Copernican Model of the Solar System, I consider this to be the kind of thing you can verify or reject, based on direct observation – in the same way that I can accept or reject “a pen falls toward the ground when I release it” by doing a little experiment and making an observation. In science, singular empirical statements are accepted, by convention (or faith) as “true” or “false” based on how well they agree with (repeated) observation.

Another thing I’d like to point out is that scientific models change and, in some cases, get replaced over time. Special Relativity replaced Newtonian Mechanics about a hundred years ago. Does this mean that Newtonian Mechanics was “false” and that Relativity is “true”? No. It just means that Relativity is a better model. It does a better job of describing the behavior of macroscopic objects than Newtonian Mechanics does (particularly when the objects are moving very fast). My point is, if scientific theories were “true” there would be no sense in trying to replace them with something “more true”.

As a final comment, as far as I know, every scientific model has shortcoming or deficiencies of some kind. Given the purpose of this post, that obviously includes evolutional theory. But as another example, consider two of the most fundamental theories in physics – Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity. For reasons that (thankfully) I won’t get into, Quantum Mechanics (specifically, Quantum Field Theory) and General Relativity (Einstein’s theory of gravity) seem to be deeply incompatible with one another. Not just a little incompatible, but incompatible in the very way in which each describes the world. In fact, trying to resolve this conflict is one of the largest tasks (if not the largest task) of current physics. This suggests that there is something wrong with one or both of these models(2). Does this mean we should chuck them in the garbage? No. It just reflects the idea that scientific models are … well, models. They all have their shortcomings.

Science as a Game

You can view (and many philosophers have viewed) science as kind of a game – one with certain rules. One of the rules is that scientific models should (at least in principle) be grounded in empirical evidence. Put another way, the game of science doesn’t allow its players to invoke or use supernatural agents or causes in their models(3). I use this game analogy because, viewed in this way, science is a regulated activity which limits what scientists can talk about and how they talk about it. If you can get past the idea that science is some kind of search for the “truth”, then you can accept science as a human activity which tries to describe nature in a kind of limited fashion.

From this, it seems to me that just because science doesn’t comment on some aspect of the world, that doesn’t mean we have to look at that aspect of the world with suspicion. As far as I know, science doesn’t have anything close to a coherent model of emotions, but, on a personal level, I have no doubt that my parents love me. Similarly, science doesn’t comment on matters of faith. They fall outside of the allowed topics of science. Same goes with supernatural agents. They aren’t (officially) allowed in science. But that doesn’t mean that these matters aren’t worthy of serious attention.

Criticisms of Evolution

Ok, given what I’ve said above, you can see where I’m going with this. Evolutionary Theory (whatever version) is a model. It has deficiencies – like every other scientific model does. To criticize evolution because there are holes in it, in the hopes of “proving” that evolution is “false” doesn’t really make sense. Not only does the idea of “proof” not apply to scientific theories, but you can attack any other theory or model in science on the same general grounds.

Now, don’t get me wrong. For all you followers of Karl Popper out there, pointing out the deficiencies or incompatibilities of a model with empirical evidence is an important part of scientific progress. It’s what helps us recognize weaknesses in models and allows us to see where we should concentrate our research in an attempt to improve the model or replace it with a better one (which will hopefully have fewer weaknesses). But the motivation, in this case, is scientific progress.

In the case of those who object to evolutionary theories for religious reasons, the motivation isn’t progress in the way I described above. Remember, if you view science as a game with certain rules, you know that no scientific model is allowed to incorporate supernatural agents. Consequently, even if evolution is improved in a way that does address its weaknesses or is replaced with a completely different model – it still won’t be one that uses supernatural causes and so won’t be compatible with creationism. Does that mean the creationists are incorrect? No. It just means that, according to its own rules, science can’t embrace something like creationism.

I get the sense that some who believe in creationism think they can prove or show that creationism is right if they can prove that evolution theory is false (or, a least, by showing that it’s garbage and should be rejected). This, of course, doesn’t follow. If it were the case the there were only two possible theories – evolution and creationism – and you somehow knew that one of them was true, then this tactic would work. But this isn’t the case. Not only can you come up with a bunch of other theories to explain the origin and development of life on Earth, but we have no way of know if any of them are true. But this actually leads to my final topic …

Science and Religion and Truth

Fundamentally, I don’t think you can really compare religious and scientific theories or views or models on how things are, will be or where. They don’t use the same standards for defining what is accepted as “true”.

You might argue that this attitude is ass backwards. The world is, was and will be a certain way – the indisputable truth of the matter, so to speak. And a given view or theory either has it right or it doesn’t. Whether it’s scientific or religious doesn’t matter.

Well, that sounds reasonable, until you actually get down to looking at how we decide if something is true or not. It seems to me, that we really aren’t in much of a position to assert, with complete confidence, the truth of much of anything. To become a bit of a skeptic here, I think I know what’s going on right know, and I’m pretty sure I know what happed a moment ago and I can maybe guess what will happen in a moment, but … when you get down to it, a lot of what we accept as true rests on a mountain of assumptions which are simply accepted as true without proof.

Like I mentioned, even philosophers can’t agree on what “truth” is, let alone coming up with a theory that helps us define it concisely. If you accept the idea that, ultimately, just about everything can be questioned on some level (see Rene Descartes) and that most of what we think we know follows from a bunch of assumptions which are assumed to be true (without proof), then you have to mindful of the process that gets us to what we accept as true. You can accept certain truths based on faith in a certain religion. You can decide to play the game of science and only accept as true things that can be tied to direct empirical observation. Ultimately, both are based on assumptions and in reality, most people rely on both.

If two people agree on the same set of assumptions, then a meaningful debate can follow. If they don’t, then there is no real point to a debate (other than to simply trip up or embarrass your opponent). The argument can never be resolved. Arguing about the origin of life on earth from two different sets of assumptions (religious and scientific) is, in my opinion, fundamentally pointless.

But the flip side to that, I think, is that there is no need for people who believe in evolution and those who believe in creationism to butt heads over it. You might say “Well, at least one of these views has to be false since they don’t seem compatible with one another.”(4) OK. But I doubt we’ll ever be in a position to really know. So it’s ultimately a matter of faith – for both sides.

Footnotes

1. I expand on this in my other post “Why Liberals Do What They Do” in this forum. (Nice plug, eh?)

2. You can argue that the two theories are, in fact, basically correct but we just aren’t interpreting what they mean correctly. If that is correct and if the proper interpretation is found, it would still amount to a development and extension (i.e. a change) in one or both theories. And if you don’t buy that, then ok, my point still holds in general – most scientific theories have some holes or areas that still need to be developed – so substitute any of those instead.

3. Historically, scientific theories have incorporated non-empirical elements in their interpretations. Things like “cause and effect” or “action at a distance” are more recent examples. To get around this, I could argue from the standpoint that a scientific theory is really just its non-interpreted elements. In physics, that amounts to the equations which serve as its basis. But that’s debatable and anyways, it’s harder to extend this to other areas of science that aren’t as equation heavy. So, I’ll argue that traditionally, the non-empirical elements of a typical scientific theory have some (maybe philosophical) basis in empirical evidence, thought the nature of that basis might be unclear. At the least, they aren’t of the “deus ex machina” variety.

4. This is debatable. Fundamentally, I don’t think there has to be any incompatibility between creationism and evolution – but that’s another disc

Comments Policy

All comments are owned by whoever posted them and are subject to our terms of use. They should not be assumed to represent the views of NewsBusters.

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

This is a forum post I'd recommend

For those who didn't see it the first time, or perhaps if you've been reading the Ben Stein thread with interest.

Thanks, hDM, for the reference. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

Evolution and Conservatives

Evolution and Conservatives.

I appreciate any comments by those with the stomach to wade through this.

I'm going to log off for a few hours, but for those who feel the need to tear me a new one, rest assured, I will respond.

hdM,As usual, another interes

hdM,

As usual, another interesting and well thought out essay.

And I hope posters here will read it objectively as to what "truth" really is, as you've presented it in this context. 

I really, really hope the warmers read it and take it to heart.  Not that I expect they will....but it would be nice.

Welcome back, Blonde. ;)We ar

Welcome back, Blonde. ;)

We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. - Queen Victoria

Blonde, Thanks, I hope they

Blonde,

Thanks, I hope they do as well. I didn't put this up as a kind of "religion is dumb" post - something that's obvious if you read it.

But who knows?

Anywho. I'll be back later to see if anyone cares.

hdM,Well, having done a bit m

hdM,

Well, having done a bit more reading here since I posted my response to you, I see where you were coming from.  But knowing you the way I do, I suspect you'd been pondering this topic for a while before posting it.  Nicely done, BTW.

Anyone who is familiar with your postings here would know that this isn't a "religion is dumb" post....rather a thoughtful attempt to deconflict the inanity (and insanity) of the creationism vs. evolution debates that get going here sometimes.

What I particularly liked was your take on the "truth".  It made me think.  We all have our "truths"....but when taken from the point of view of the "black crows" or the "sun coming up"....truth is not fact....the "truth" to each of us is rather faith and perception.   And it's made me realize that many people here (myself included) argue from a postion of something being true or not, or factual or not, while not recognizing that proving the truth (or fact) is a whole lot more difficult than it appears at first glance.

Which is always the continual argument.  Perhaps if we can be big enough people to admit that our truths are personal, and cease trying to bash each other over the head with our own particular version of "the truth", we might be able to advance intellectual debate (on any topic) here.  Just a thought.

Blonde, Yes, it was my view

Blonde,

Yes, it was my views on the idea of "truth" which pretty much motivated me to think about this.

There's a kind of funny balance in the idea. On some level, it's hard not to accept the skeptic's view that pretty much everything is questionable - but where does that get you? Not too far. So you have to take some stuff as true - on faith (whether consciously or unconsciously) - as a kind of starting off point.

So if you're in a scientific setting, it's empirical evidence (however defined) that is taken as "true". If you're discussing topics in a Christian setting, you take the scriptures as the basis for truth.

The problem I noticed with the evolution/creationism debate is that you have two groups of people going at each other with two different standards for what is accepted as true. Unless I'm missing something, I can't see what the point is. It's like a Euclidean and non-Euclidean guy arguing over what the definition of parallel lines is - since they don't agree on certain fundamental truths (axioms in this case) they will never reach an agreement.

hdM,Precisely.Which is why I

hdM,

Precisely.

Which is why I enjoyed your essay.

If the two sides in some of the more heated debates here were to consider your basic tenet before going at it tooth and nail, we might have some more reasoned debates here, instead of the bash-fests that often happen.

To reframe:  If each side in the "Romney as a Mormon Candidate" reframed their "truths" in light of your post....what would there be to argue about?  I get rather tired of "my truth is better than your truth".

Anyway, nicely done.

I'd imagine the level of invective gets just as high during scientific "debates" over the truth.  People are passionate....a "fact" of life that keeps us all amused.

This supports my argument

This supports my argument that you can't prove religion, so it isn't a worthwhile debate ( discussing religion isn't the same thing as debating ).

Its a long read, but I enjoyed it hdM. Great job.

I would like to illustrate your point with the all odd numbers are prime proof

It also supports the other

It also supports the other logical fallacy I see on NB, if I "prove" someone wrong then I must be right

* proof is often defined as if the crickets chirps I win

PS, for those in Rio Linda, the above post is a joke.

it don't prove nuttin   

it don't prove nuttin   

It's cool that you noticed

It's cool that you noticed that part and got what I was referring to in the more general sense.

And your above post was a nice excuse for me to emphasis (in the post below) that I'm not taking an anti - religious stance. Ditto-heads will, of course, understand.

Conservative, Actually, I t

Conservative,

Actually, I think my argument is that you pretty much can't "prove" anything. But that really isn't original on my part.

Thanks for the kind words.

HydroYour argument that you c

Hydro

Your argument that you can't prove anything "if true" can't be proven and is thus self-defeating.  You may of course be an unyeilding sceptic but you can't in truth live that way.  For example you believe the truth that headon collisions in your car are undesirable and avoid them.  You live as though many things are true. 

If you are genuinely interested then i would recommend 'Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air' by Beckwith and Koukle.  It's an easy read.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, The problem you point

botg,

The problem you point out is something I refer to in passing in my original post (the part near the beginning in parenthesis where I mention what seems to be a contradiction).

This problem of circularity or self-reference is, from what I understand, the main problem when it comes to trying to develop theories of true. How do you define "true" without using the idea of truth? I'm not too up on the topic now a days, and I know there are some approaches to try to get around this (using metalanguage ideas for example) but I don't think the issue has been resolved.

Either way, yes. I am guilty of asserting it's true that just about nothing is true. You can view this as contradiction or you can view it as an example of something I simply take on faith.

As I mentioned to Blonde (above), in practice you pretty much have to accept some things as true (your head-on collision example) but at the same time, it's hard to deny the skeptic's argument.

Thanks for the reference. I'll look into it.

When i assert that there is t

When i assert that there is truth as a true assertion i don't contradict myself.  We do need to be careful and yes there must be premises that we accept.  We do not have to contradict ourselves however, and when we do that that know that we have accepted a premise which is not true (or have a faulty reasoning)  I do not accept David Hume's reasoning on scepticism.    

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, I used the word &quot

botg,

I used the word "contradict" in too loose a fashion (and, as you point out, incorrectly). Maybe "circular" is a better description. Either way, I think you are correct. To have meaningful discourse, we have to agree on something as true, and work from that.

The last time I read Hume was like a 100 years ago as an undergrad. I only mention his example about the sunrise to get my point across, not really to try to defend his reasoning (if that's what you are referring to when you say his "scepticism"). I'm relying more on the typical formulation of the "Problem of Induction".

HydroI mentioned Hume since h

Hydro

I mentioned Hume since he was the one to popularise the extreme sceptics viewpoint. 

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

Blonde, I agree that if peo

Blonde,

I agree that if people kind of accepted that their opinions are just that - opinions based on a whole lot of assumptions that can't really be proven one way or the other - I think people would chill out more and become less emotional. But, hey, I'm guilty of that too, so who am I to speak?

And anyways, it's the passion of arguing a point that makes the effort so fun - for me, anyways.

"If two people agree on

"If two people agree on the same set of assumptions, then a meaningful debate can follow. If they don’t, then there is no real point to a debate (other than to simply trip up or embarrass your opponent). The argument can never be resolved. Arguing about the origin of life on earth from two different sets of assumptions (religious and scientific) is, in my opinion, fundamentally pointless."

The point I've been trying to make is that Evolution is based on a religious assumption, i.e. that God doesn't exist. Obviously, without a supernatural cause, some form of Evolution must be "true" (to use layman's terminology).

Even assuming a "God" doesn't mean Evolution is not true (which makes Theism more flexible than Atheism or Agnosticism).

But this is not the basis for a scientific inquiry. The facts are what matters. The only assumption should be that the universe somehow came into existence and has operated a certain way throughout.

So, the question is basically, how?

The scientific method requires the gathering and analysis of data. Theories are postulated based on this data. Other data and analyses are gathered and used to test the hypotheses. Theories are either abandoned or modified as the data warrant, and/or new theories are developed.

Am I (basically) right so far?

If I am, then when it comes to Evolution vs. Creation, making assumptions before postulating theories would be to go outside the scientific method.

It's true that general discussions of Creationism seem to start from the premise that God created everything. From a strictly scientific viewpoint, this would be wrong methodology.  But that doesn't mean true science can not be, or is not, applied to the study of Creationism. 

On the other hand, it can't be denied that religious assumptions are, and have been applied to Evolution. This denial, on the part of some, is my point of contention.

The idea that Creation is religious, whereas Evolution is scientific seems to me to be highly suspect and dogmatic.  You seemed to disparage this thought in our previous discussions, yet you also said, "So it’s ultimately a matter of faith – for both sides."

We seem to agree on that point. Yet those who ridicule Creationism, or try to place it outside the realm of science while insisting Evolution is pure science, seem to be operating under the assumption that this issue is NOT "ultimately a matter of faith" but rather a matter of established fact.

And they use this assumption as a basis for ridiculing those wacky creationists who believe such nonsense in the face of what they claim is absolute fact. Which would be a legitimate line of reasoning, IF they actually knew it was a fact - but they don't.

This is not to say that I know it's not a fact.

If we want to discuss scientific issues, we should let the facts speak, and try as best as we can to weed out, or at least take into consideration, our biases.

This is what I've spent the better part of 25 years doing. And I believe that anyone who begins with the notion that nothing is known, and then seeks knowledge and facts, will ultimately conclude, at least, that the universe didn't come into existence of its own accord. But that's just a belief on my part.

mattm, Thanks for the reply

mattm,

Thanks for the reply. I'll try to address most of your points (the points I don't address are the ones I pretty much agree with):

"The point I've been trying to make is that Evolution is based on a religious assumption, i.e. that God doesn't exist." "

I think this is a disengenuous use of the word "religious". In the way that you seem to be using it, just about any world view of belief system is a "religion" because they all pretty much reject some ideas over others as true. So just to be clear, when I use the term "religion", I mean a belief system which accepts the existance of some supreme or supernatural (or whatever) being which has had a hand in the way the universe is (or will be). I think my definition is pretty much the traditional one and by that definition, science isn't a religion in the way that you have suggested.

"Obviously, without a supernatural cause, some form of Evolution must be "true" (to use layman's terminology)."

I don't agree with this. I see no reason to think that someone couldn't come up with a theory which explains the origin of life on Earth which doesn't incorporate supernatural agents or some variant of evolution.

"But this is not the basis for a scientific inquiry. The facts are what matters."

Well, one of the main points of my post was to suggest that what we call "facts" is predicated on what we place faith in, since ultimately, pretty much everything we accept as true can be questioned on some level. This sentence of yours suggests that either you didn't get that or that you disagree. If it's the later, I ask that you explain where my take on the issue is flawed.

"If I am, then when it comes to Evolution vs. Creation, making
assumptions before postulating theories would be to go outside the
scientific method."

I disagree with this as well. If scientists weren't allowed to make assumptions before postulating theories, then how would they even know what kinds of experiments or theories to postulate? Maybe I'm not getting your point, but the way you advance in science is to work from gut instincts, personal beliefs and hunches (all, to me, are forms of assumptions) and see if they go anywhere. They usually don't, but once in a while, you get somewhere.

"It's true that general discussions of Creationism seem to start from the premise that God created everything."

General? Can you give me example of a Creationist theory that doesn't have the premise of a supreme being at its core?

"From a strictly scientific viewpoint, this would be wrong methodology."

I wouldn't say "wrong", just different. And that really is one of my main points of my post.

"But that doesn't mean true science can not be, or is not, applied to the study of Creationism."

You can apply scientific methods to any area of study. But I don't think that that makes that area of study a science. Scientific methods are applied to some economic theories but I think most people (me included) would hesitate to classify those economic theories as being part of science.

"On the other hand, it can't be denied that religious assumptions are,
and have been applied to Evolution. This denial, on the part of some,
is my point of contention."

If you are referring to your first sentence, then I do disagree (as explained above). If you mean something more, then you need to explain this.

"The idea that Creation is religious, whereas Evolution is scientific seems to me to be highly suspect and dogmatic."

This seems tied into your previous sentence and so, again, I ask you to elaborate on this.

I won't comment on how other people within the scientific community present science or treat creationists or those of religious faith. This post is my view - not theirs and I have said nothing in my post that reflects the attitudes you mention.

"If we want to discuss scientific issues, we should let the facts speak,
and try as best as we can to weed out, or at least take into
consideration, our biases."

Again, I'm not sure that you got my point about how "facts" are, to a large extent, dictated by the standards we use to define truth.

"This is what I've spent the better part of 25 years doing. And I
believe that anyone who begins with the notion that nothing is known,
and then seeks knowledge and facts, will ultimately conclude, at least,
that the universe didn't come into existence of its own accord. But
that's just a belief on my part."

I respect your view and more importantly, I respect the fact that you acknowledge it as a belief - as I do my views.

Thanks for the reply. I'll tr

Thanks for the reply. I'll try to address most of your point...(ditto)

I don't think it was a disingenuous use of the word "religion."  It's a pretty common definition that a religion is simply a belief system and doesn't neccessarily require a supernatual realm.  But if that's the way you're using the term, then we've been largely arguing at cross purposes.

Regarding facts, I basically agree with the point you're making, but it shouldn't be too hard for honest knowledge-seekers to agree on what a fact is.  If we can't do that much, then theoretical pursuits are merely academic exercises.

I didn't mean to imply that assumptions don't have a valid purpose within scientific inquiry, only that they can't be used to make factual conclusions, unless facts, analyses and tests justify moving them out of the realm of assumption and into the realm of fact. (I realize this is a clumsy explanation, but if you cut me some slack, I think you'll get my meaning) 

It must be kept in mind that the assumptions we make could tend to bias our conclusions, if we're not careful, just as our "religion" (or philosophy, if you prefer) can bias our assumptions before any scientific inquiry begins.

If a person is motivated by philosophy, this will color the conclusions they come to, and even the data they choose to accept or reject.  A point you seem not to disagree with, if I understand you right.  I believe evolutionists are at least as "guilty" of this as they claim creationists are.   

You asked: "General?"  I was referring to the fact that people don't usually speak in precise scientific language.  And , "Can you give me example of a Creationist theory that doesn't have the premise of a supreme being at its core?" 

Yes I can - and this is the key:  It's simply that the premise isn't the Supreme Being; The premise is simply that the universe exists, and that it came into being in some way.  

This is the starting point for Creationism (although it's rarely spoken of this way - the same of which it true for Evolution, simply because it's rarely considered relevant in other than philosophical or semantic discussions)

This should also be the starting point for Evolution, but I don't think it is.  I think Evolution is based on the premise that there is no Supreme Being and therefore only a completely naturalistic explanation of origins etc. can be scientifically valid.

This is why I said to another NBer that Evolution was not originally postulated because of scientific facts and observations, but simply as a possible explanation for the existence of a "self-caused" universe.  This is basically a philosophical premise, which is why I object to the claim that science is the province of Evolution to the exclusion of "Special Creation."

I understand you disagree with that. That's fine, we'll agree to disagree, but maybe now you understand my point better.  

Thanks.

Again, addressing your poin

Again, addressing your points:

"I don't think it was a disingenuous use of the word "religion." It's a pretty common definition that a religion is simply a belief system and doesn't necessarily require a supernatural realm. But if that's the way you're using the term, then we've been largely arguing at cross purposes."

The generally understood meaning of "religion" implies belief in the supernatural. Technically, you are correct, but I'm not going to argue it. Using your general definition of religion, then, it seems that one of your main points (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that science has "religious" elements to it, just as Creationism has "religious" elements. Ok, using your very general meaning of that word, I'll agree. But the kind of "religious" elements are different. In fact, the difference is fundamental to the difference in how science is distinguished from theology.

You say in a previous post "that God doesn't exist" is a "religious assumption". Using your definition of "religion", that's true. But, science doesn't hold this assumption. Science isn't atheistic - it's more agnostic. Science doesn't talk about supernatural agents, let alone deny they exist. Individual scientists might have a personal opinion one way or the other, but show me a scientific theory that incorporates the idea that "God doesn't exist". I've never seen one.

Also, despite your attempt to assert that some aspects or assumptions within science are "religious", simply calling them that doesn't make them "religious" in the same way that the religious assumptions in Creationism are "religious". So rather than using the word "religious" ('cause I'm sick of putting that word in quotes), lets talk about "belief in a supernatural agent" and agree that science doesn't use this belief while creationism (in its usual form) does. I think that might clear up some of the confusion between us.

"Regarding facts, I basically agree with the point you're making, but it shouldn't be too hard for honest knowledge-seekers to agree on what a fact is. If we can't do that much, then theoretical pursuits are merely academic exercises."

Well, maybe. I think most people will accept what they experience directly through their senses as fact. But beyond that, maybe not. And that's one of the main points (maybe the main point) of my original post. The reason I said that debates between evolutionists and creationists are pointless is precisely because they don't agree on the facts and since you can ultimately question just about any fact, there is no way to show who is correct. You can decide (on faith) on way or the other, but that isn't proof. And in the same vein - if you don't agree with this point, then there is no way you and I can reach an agreement on this.

Your next three statements are about "assumptions" and "bias". It seems that you are saying that scientists (or evolutionists in particular) and (maybe?) creationists (you seem to hedge on this) can be guilty of allowing false assumptions into their work as a result of (philosophical or whatever) biases. I'll assume that you mean this on a scale that can affect the entire field of study. But, you seem to suggest, if we are careful and truthful, we can recognize these and eliminate these bad assumptions.

But then you don't specify what assumptions or bias you are talking about. You have to tell me this for me to comment. I think I know what you are talking about, but don't want to be accused of making assumptions.

"Yes I can - and this is the key: It's simply that the premise isn't the Supreme Being; The premise is simply that the universe exists, and that it came into being in some way."

I'm curious to know how many others here, who believe in Creationism, would agree with you. My understanding of (and so my use of the word) "Creationism" is a theory which incorporates a supernatural agent to explain the creation of the universe and/or life on Earth. The premise you state is one that just about everyone would agree with (except those who have a steady state view of the universe, in which case they will deny the "came into being" part).

Just as you did with "religious", you seem to be taking a very general definition of "Creationism" so that you can group science and Creationism together. Ok, I'll suggest what I did before. To be clear, instead of "Creationism", let's talk about theories that incorporate supernatural agents and those that do not. Science does not and Creationism does.

"This should also be the starting point for Evolution, but I don't think it is. I think Evolution is based on the premise that there is no Supreme Being and therefore only a completely naturalistic explanation of origins etc. can be scientifically valid."

Yes. If you accept Evolutionary theory as being a part of science then, as I outlined in my original post, it can not, according to it's (science's) own rules, incorporate supernatural agents into its models. And maybe this is the crux of the disagreement between us. If you don't accept Evolution theory as being a part of science, then we have a fundamental disagreement and I think that pretty much ends the discussion.

"This is why I said to another NBer that Evolution was not originally postulated because of scientific facts and observations, but simply as a possible explanation for the existence of a "self-caused" universe. This is basically a philosophical premise, which is why I object to the claim that science is the province of Evolution to the exclusion of "Special Creation.""

If you read my original post (and I'm starting to wonder if you did) then the rejection of supernatural agents in science is a central assumption that science imposes on itself. I would suggest that this assumption is a necessary one for an area of study to be called a science (though not sufficient). If we don't agree on this, then, again, there is no way for us to reach agreement.

As a last comment, I don't think that the way I have defined science is controversial. I think the vast majority of present day scientists (in all fields) would accept the assumption I mention above as being a fundamental part of what defines a science. You seem to reject this. From your posts, it seems you are trying to argue that, fundamentally, Evolution and Creationism are on par with one another. If this isn't your point, then maybe you could just state what your main point is as concisely as possible so I can finally get it.

However, if this is your point - that Evolutionary Theory and Creationism are on par with each other - you seem to do this by generalizing the definition of "religion", altering the definition of "Creationism", maybe denying that Evolution really is a part of science (?) and rejecting what just about every scientist in the world accepts as a fundamental assumption in what defines a science. If this is the case, then you are correct - I disagree with you.

But that's cool.

After posting last night I th

After posting last night I thought you would make the claim that I was wrong about Creationism not having the premise of a supernatural agent. i.e. that Creationism requires a supernatural agent, and since science doesn't allow or deal with (however you want to say it) a supernatural agent, Creationism is not science according to the generally accepted definition of the word. I'll get to that in a minute, but first:

I ask why does science exclude a supernatural agent? Because it can't be measured or observed and therefore incorporates the unknown and the unknowable? What other reason could it be?

So, assuming that this is the objection to a SA, then the same objection would apply to the non-existence of a SA because that is also unknown and unknowable, unobservable and unmeasurable.

I am not redefining terms, I'm just trying to get down to the bare bones here.

Evolution is basically an explanation of the origin and development of the universe without the action of any SA. Even though Evolution doesn't require the non-existence of a SA, it is nevertheless predicated on that assumption.

Therefore (according to generally accepted definitions), since Evolution excludes a SA, as does science, then Evolution qualifies as science.

However, since Evolution is predicated on a philosophical assumption which basically entails the same problems of unmeasurability as the SA objection to creationism, then it would also have to be excluded from science on that basis.

I know you disagree with that, but either way all of this is really a philosophical discussion. Yes, I would include both evolution and creation as containing both scientific and philosophical  elements. 

Now, getting back to my first point - aside from definitional objections. It's true Creationism is basically the idea that some SA caused the universe.  However, from what I think we would both agree was a purely scientific standpoint, the basic question is about origins.  This is my "starting point" mentioned in my previous post, which is the key to my point:

The universe exists and it came into existence in some way.

This is the starting point for both Evolution and Creation, and so far no Supernatural Agent has been incorporated, so there could be no "scientific" objection to either postulate.

O.K.  Next we have to decide how we are going to figure out how this could have happened.  We have to first agree that the universe actually does exist.  Then we have to decide what information we need to discover how it happened - IF it's even possible to do so.

So far we're still in the realm of science, right?

O.K. Now we set up two possible explanations as assumptions to which we can apply data and analysis: One will be a purely naturalistic explanation, and the other will include a Supernatural Agent.

Now, the scientific community says: STOP, you've introduced a Supernatural Agent, this is not science, so that explanation is excluded.

So, Evolution becomes the scientifically accepted view of the origin and development of the universe before ANY data are gathered!

I would call that something other than science - I'm not sure what, though.

But, let's let that stand, for the moment: Now let's gather some data. We've already established Evolution, but we still want to understand how it works, so we start gathering and analyzing data, making hypotheses, testing them etc. etc. What happens when data come it that contradict the established view? Simple, we either ignore it or explain it away.

This has been the history of Evolutionary science for over 150 years.

Since Creationism has been exculded from the science, none of the data which contradicts Evolution can be interpreted as supporting Creationism. But, if we were to truly accept the data at face value, without assuming the establishment of Evolution, we just might have to come to the conclusion that Evolution never happened as far as science can tell. (And there is tons of evidence that this is the case, for anyone willing to look it up.)

This would lead to the conclusion that if Evolution never happened, then Creation must have happened. For Creation to have happened, there must be a Supernatural Agent.

So, let's recap. We excluded Creation because of the SA. We gathered data for Evolution and excluded Data against it, or for Creation. Nevertheless, we've concluded that Evolution is at best problematic. The only realistic alternative is Creation which requires a Supernatural Agent.

So, the Supernatural Agent is not the premise for an inquiry into the origin of the universe, it's the conclusion of that inquiry!  Since, the SA wasn't introduced until the end of the unquiry, it can not be used as an objection to Creationism as science.

Obviously this is a very broad generalized outline of my reasoning steps.  And I'm not presenting this as "proof" of anything.  I'm merely stating that for science to be truly scientific (regarding this issue especially) some step-by-step process resembling mine, with the basic starting point I mentioned, would have to be followed.

You say: "...just about every scientist in the world accepts as a fundamental assumption in what defines a science."

It this how we define science, by consensus?  There was a time when just about every scientist in the world accepted spontaneous generation, yet they were wrong about that, too.

Thanks

matt, this is very well writt

matt, this is very well written, but there is one flaw. Your premise that if evolution is wrong then creationism is right. I don't believe in evolution, and believe in creation...however there maybe other explanations as to how we came to being other than evolution that science hasn't resolved yet. Do agree though that from the start the "model" of evolution had the premise no God, and there by takes data and forces it to fit in the model.

As far as teaching intelligent design in high school as science...I think you can just mention the data holes in evolution, explain how evolution is a model, but doesn't mean truth, and I would be satisfied. A model is only good if you understand where the limitations are and the underlying assumptions...and this is often ignored. Its the same with global warming science. Computer models are created and taken as facts, but often the computer models don't account for things such as cloud cover, which is a huge factor in weather.

Why did Stephen J Gould postu

Why did Stephen J Gould postulate the theory of 'Punctuated Equilibrium' with no idea whatever of how or why it would happen?  Because the fossil record is inconsistent with the predominant gradual evolutionary theory.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

Hydro, your thoughts on this

Hydro, your thoughts on this aspect of evolution por favor.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, I have no comment on

botg,

I have no comment on this topic. Biology isn't my area of work and I've never worked with any form of Evolutionary Theory - so you probably know more about Punctuated Equilibrium than I ever will.

But before you roll your eyes, you will notice that for the purposes of my original post, the only thing about Evolutionary Theory that factored into my argument was that is was a scientific model (though some on here seem to disagree with that). Consequently, its details, variants, history, specific weaknesses, etc ... aren't relevant to my main points.

Very good (no eye rolling)Sup

Very good (no eye rolling)

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

Conservative, See below my

Conservative,

See below my take on mattm's post (I mention the criticism that you bring up).

As for teaching evolution/intelligent design in high school science - as I mentioned to botg, when I've covered the Big Bang in classes I've taught, I've done exactly what you suggested - point out it's strengths and weaknesses and emphasized that it's only a model.

But I still don't think Creationism should be taught as a science ;)

mattm,"I ask why does

mattm,

"I ask why does science exclude a supernatural agent? Because it can't be measured or observed and therefore incorporates the unknown and the unknowable? What other reason could it be?"

I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyways. Yes, it's because supernatural agents (in the way I'm using the term) can not be independently verified by empirical means. No other reason is necessary. By way of explanation, I'll just repost here what I posted to botg's on here:

"The problem I see with that is that you can't consistently and uniquely derive empirically verifiable results from non-empirical (supernatural) causes.

If I present a theory to explain how electricity works and I suggest a natural cause - that it's the result of the exchange of photons, then this model will (based on the known empirical properties of photons) have certain unique (specific to this model) consequences that can be experimentally tested.

However, if I suggest that electrical effects derive from some supernatural agent, then by the very fact that it's supernatural, I have no way of knowing what it's empirical properties (since it is non-empirical) and so there is no way for me to derive unique consequences from this model that will help me test it. You might say the consequences are one thing and I might say they are something else, but since supernatural agents, by definition, don't have known empirical properties, there is no way for us to see who is correct."

"So, assuming that this is the objection to a SA, then the same objection would apply to the non-existence of a SA because that is also unknown and unknowable, unobservable and unmeasurable."

If you are not going to read my posts, I'm not going to bother to respond. I clearly said that science doesn't assert the non-existence of supernatural agents. Given that science can only make comments about empirically verifiable phenomena, it couldn't even do this if it wanted to.

"Evolution is basically an explanation of the origin and development of the universe without the action of any SA. Even though Evolution doesn't require the non-existence of a SA, it is nevertheless predicated on that assumption."

Again, Evolutionary Theory (or any scientific theory) neither requires or is predicated on the assumption that supernatural agents don't exist. They simply don't use them. If you can not or are unwilling to acknowledge this, then there is no point to this. You can criticize science for taking this approach, but then you would have to explain to me how you get around the problem I mentioned above in my electricity example. If you can do that, you can usher in a new era of science.

"Therefore (according to generally accepted definitions), since Evolution excludes a SA, as does science, then Evolution qualifies as science."

No. I said the exclusion of supernatural agents is a Necessary, but not Sufficient condition for a model to count as scientific. I can propose a model that says that the reason the sky is blue is because dogs bark. No supernatural agent there, but hardly scientific. Again, if you don't want to really read my posts, just let me know and we can end this.

"However, since Evolution is predicated on a philosophical assumption which basically entails the same problems of unmeasurability as the SA objection to creationism, then it would also have to be excluded from science on that basis."

I'm guessing the philosophical assumption you are referring to is that supernatural agents do not exist. As I stated here and before, this is not an assumption of any scientific theory (Evolutionary Theory included). Science chooses not to use supernatural agents in its models. That doesn't mean that science says there are no supernatural agents. Reread the original post. My comment about my parents makes that pretty clear, I think.

"I know you disagree with that, but either way all of this is really a philosophical discussion. Yes, I would include both evolution and creation as containing both scientific and philosophical elements."

The decision of science not to incorporate supernatural agents is not merely a philosophical one, it's a practical one that follows from the acceptance as "true" only those things which can be checked empirically. Otherwise you get problems like the electricity one I mentioned.

Regarding your next couple of points, OK. But you are assuming that the universe has a beginning. Some don't accept that (and fundamentally, there isn't any reason to reject the idea that the universe has been around forever) , but ok. Let's gloss over that.

"So, Evolution becomes the scientifically accepted view of the origin and development of the universe before ANY data are gathered!"

No. As I said before, rejection of supernatural agents is a necessary part of a scientific model, but not sufficient. Evolution is accepted as a scientific model for reasons that go beyond just not invoking God.

Your next comments are criticisms of evolution. OK. Thanks for suggesting that scientists who use evolutionary theory are dishonest and purposely ignore data that doesn't support their theory. I'm not one of those scientists, so I don't really care about these details. I'm not here to defend Evolution (I said that in the very first paragraph of my original post) - the kind of criticism you level will never lead you to your conclusion ...

"This would lead to the conclusion that if Evolution never happened, then Creation must have happened. For Creation to have happened, there must be a Supernatural Agent."

As I said in my original post (did you read it, by the way), this doesn't follow. Isn't it possible that Creation theory can be replaces by a better scientific theory (ie no supernatural agents) that does account for all the empirical evidence? The answer, of course, is yes.

The rest of your statements are based on the assumptions or statements you make that I don't agree with - that a model that rejects supernatural agents is automatically scientific (nope) and that if Evolutionary Theory is wrong, Creationism and consequently, the existence of a supernatural agent must follow (nope, again).

Your last statement...

"It this how we define science, by consensus? There was a time when just about every scientist in the world accepted spontaneous generation, yet they were wrong about that, too."

Your analogy doesn't work. The activity of science is a self regulating one that imposes certain restrictions on itself. Yes, this is done by consensus. If you don't like how science works, don't become a scientist. If you're cool with it, then you might become one and carry on the tradition. Pointing out some erroneous theory that was held once by some group of scientists does nothing to undermine the way scientists have chosen to work.

Despite your implication that

Despite your implication that I don't read your posts, I will respond to the only relevant (to what my original point was) statement in your last one.

"As I said before, rejection of supernatural agents is a necessary part of a scientific model." "...because supernatural agents...can not be independently verified by empirical means."

Believe it or not, I get that. My point is, however, that no study of origins can be independently verified by empirical means because no scientist was around at the origin of things to take measurements and make observations.

Therefore no study of origins would qualify as a scientific model according to your statement...in other words, assuming you're correct, not only would rejecting SA's be a necessary part of a scientific model, so would rejecting anything which can not be independently verified by empirical means - so, by your own standards Evolution would also have to be excluded from the realm of science. 

Here are two quotes from noted scientist Karl Popper:

"...There will be well-testable theories, hardly testable theories, and non-testable theories. Those which are non-testable are of no interest to empirical scientists. They may be described as metaphysical." - Conjectures and Refutations (New York: Basic Books, 1963), p. 257. ...

"I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme a possible framework for testable scientific theories." - Unended Quest (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court Pub. Co., 1976), p. 168.

The basic question is not Evolution and Conservatism, or Evolution vs. Creation, or Creation and Science. The question regards Origins and Science. (This is a distinction that I should have emphasized earlier, but I made the mistake of assuming that this is what we were talking about.)

The question of origins is unique in science because it involves more of an "unknown" factor than practically any other area of study.  Because of this, a line of inquiry, specifically regarding the study of origins, (where the question is simply "how did the universe come into existence...?" ) should not be rejected as unscientific merely because it includes the possibility of a Supernatural Agent - as long as that's not a premise (unless taken as merely a model for predicting data)

The only truly scientific reason to object to the collection, observation and analysis of data from a Creationist perspective is if you only accept, as truly scientific, doing this from no particular perspective whatsoever, not even from an Evolutionary one, and then to let the evidence speak for itself. I believe most Creationists would not object to this at all.

It has been my underlying contention that the "scientific community" chooses to exclude Creation from the definition of science (especially with regard to the study of origins) purely and only for philosophical (or religious) and even political reasons.  If that doesn't describe you, fine.  I'm not insiting that it does.

Before Darwin, science was basically described as "thinking God's thoughts after Him." But, after Darwin, the non-theists took over and eventually arrived at a definition of science that would allow them to avoid scientific challenges to their philosophical belief about origins. 

Science should be less concerned with what is the "accepted view" of one thing or another, and more concerned with what the correct view is. I would think scientists would want to arrive at the correct view - or close to it. Yet this would be impossible to do with regard to origins, if we exclude any reasonable hypothesis - even one that might point to the existence of a Supernatural Agent.

It's been real.

mattm, I would like to firs

mattm,

I would like to first point out that in your latest post, you didn't address a single one of the criticisms I made of your previous post. Not a one. I'm not sure if this means you accept them or you aren't in the mood (or can't) counter them. Your latest post (the one I'm going to comment on now) seems to be you taking a new approach in defending your standpoint. I point this out because not too long ago (in a post on another topic on this site) you accused me of meandering.

First, the way you quote my two statements makes it look like they came from the same sentence or paragraph. They didn't - but that's just a minor point. Second, the second quoted statement preceded the following sentence: ""The problem I see with that is that you can't consistently and uniquely derive empirically verifiable results from non-empirical (supernatural) causes." This, then, is followed by an example that makes clear what I'm getting at. So despite my loose wording (which is clarified in the next sentence and example) and your attempt to try to turn my words against me, it's obvious that what I was saying is that it's the results that are "derived" from an agent in a scientific model which have to be "empirically verifiable". If you can empirically test the agent directly, cool. But at the least, its consequences have to be empirically testable.

With that in mind, you say...

"Believe it or not, I get that. My point is, however, that no study of origins can be independently verified by empirical means because no scientist was around at the origin of things to take measurements and make observations."

You are correct. If you are putting together a scientific model that hopes to explain the origin of something which can not be recreated in an experiment (such as life on Earth, the creation and evolution of stars, galaxies or the Universe, the creation and evolution of surface features on the Earth, etc...) then you can't verify this process through direct observation. However (and now lets get back to the point I made above), these models will have unique and testable consequences - ie they will make predictions. And these can be checked empirically.

For example, lets say that I have a model for the origin of the Universe (some version of a Big Bang model, lets say). That model will contain information about what the initial state of the universe was, what it was composed of, what the forces involved were, etc... From this, I can derive unique predictions from this model (something I can't do if I have incorporated supernatural agents) as to how the Universe is today - things like the existence of a background radiation with certain specific characteristics, predictions about the relative abundance of certain elements, predictions about the large scale distribution of galaxies, etc... I can then go out, and check if these predictions agree with empirical evidence.

"Therefore no study of origins would qualify as a scientific model according to your statement...in other words, assuming you're correct, not only would rejecting SA's be a necessary part of a scientific model, so would rejecting anything which can not be independently verified by empirical means - so, by your own standards Evolution would also have to be excluded from the realm of science."

I think you can see, based on what I said above, that I have said nothing that would force me to exclude Evolution (or large parts of Astronomy, Astrophysics, Cosmology and Planetary Geology) from science. You either unintentionally misunderstood my point (which seems odd, given that I went to the trouble to actually present an example to clarify), or you intentionally tried to play word games to force me to acknowledge that my statements force me to accept something I don't really want to.

You next quote Karl Popper and his take on science, falsifiability and Evolution. I should first point out that Popper's ideas are by no means universally accepted - either in science or philosophy. The thing is, that whereas you use Popper's ideas to suggest that Evolution is unscientific (according to Popper's views), many in philosophy and science turn this around to suggest that there is obviously something wrong with Popper's view since this Evolution is a part of science. If you don't accept that, then more generally, Popper's views also seem to exclude major area of work in Astronomy, Astrophysics, etc... from science. This obviously doesn't seem correct. The second thing I should mention is that, despite what some philosophers think (and maybe Popper is among them), their ideas represent an attempt to describe what science is (and how it evolves, ironically), not an attempt to dictate what science is. I'd be willing to bet that most philosophers agree with this.

At this point, I have to admit that I am having trouble following what you are trying to say. Technically, you haven't said that YOU think Evolution should be rejected because of this suppose problem of empirically checking models that make claims about "origins" - you tried to make it look like I would have to accept this conclusion based on a misrepresentation of what I said and based on the views of Popper. So I don't know if you are asserting something you believe and so I should take this in combination with all of your other statements in your other posts, or if you are trying to paint me into a corner using a view that you don't, in fact, agree with.

Regardless, we somehow get to this ...

"The question of origins is unique in science because it involves more of an "unknown" factor than practically any other area of study. Because of this, a line of inquiry, specifically regarding the study of origins, (where the question is simply "how did the universe come into existence...?" ) should not be rejected as unscientific merely because it includes the possibility of a Supernatural Agent - as long as that's not a premise (unless taken as merely a model for predicting data)"

I have no idea how you get to the conclusion of this paragraph. Yes, scientific models that deal with events that can not be reproduced in a lab or directly observed are restricted to having to check the model's predictions. However, if the agents within the model are natural (as opposed to supernatural), then the model will have unique predictions which can be derived in a consistent manner. However, if the model has supernatural agents, there is no way to do this (as per the electricity problem in my previous post). So, if anything, it's in these kinds of "origin" models that the introduction of a supernatural agent would cause the most problems. It seems, that you have actually made a pretty strong argument for exactly the opposite conclusion that you came to.

"It has been my underlying contention that the "scientific community" chooses to exclude Creation from the definition of science (especially with regard to the study of origins) purely and only for philosophical (or religious) and even political reasons. If that doesn't describe you, fine. I'm not insiting that it does."

For the millionth time, science has decided not to use supernatural agents in their models because of the problem that you can't uniquely derive predictions from them in a consistent manner. You need to explain to my why this isn't the case - why I'm wrong about this - to justify the introduction of supernatural agents into science.

"Science should be less concerned with what is the "accepted view" of one thing or another, and more concerned with what the correct view is. I would think scientists would want to arrive at the correct view - or close to it. Yet this would be impossible to do with regard to origins, if we exclude any reasonable hypothesis - even one that might point to the existence of a Supernatural Agent."

Again, you seem to miss one of the main points of my original post. There is no "correct view". Everything from the empirical to the supernatural is ultimately either rejected or accepted as true based on assumptions or faith. Science has decided that it accepts as true that which is in some way linkable to empirical observation. A model with a supernatural agent is not counted as "reasonable" within science because of the reasons I've stated above. And until you can explain to me a way to get around that problem (of uniquely deriving empirically testable predictions from a supernatural agent) there is no way you can justify to a scientist that Creationism should count as scientific.

However, just because something isn't scientific, doesn't mean it isn't worth having faith in. That was really the main point of my original post.

p.s. If by "It's been real." you mean that you want to end this, that's cool with me.

HydrodynDM,Thank you for your

HydrodynDM,

Thank you for your post. I was fortunate enough to have a father who was both a physicist (retired-he is a farmer, now) and a Very Conservative Baptist Deacon / Sunday School Teacher. Needles to say he is not a 6,000 year old creationist, yet he believes in the literal words of Genesis as well, (Yet he still believes the Earth is FAR older than 6,000 years that a lot of the “Creationist” argue. ) One thing that the 6,000 year old Creationist types seem to deny is that there is certainly room for interpretation between those first two verses of Genesis for A LOT OF TIME as well as some of the later verses in Genesis. In my mind the Genesis chapter 1 verse 2 and forward account is as much a recreation of earth after some catastrophe. Having studied both Creationism and Evolutionary Theory I take it one step further and realize neither the Genesis account, nor the Evolutionary Theory have every piece of the puzzle answered in as much detail as some would like to argue. I have no problem believing things can evolve. But I do not deny the ACT of GOD in the process either.

Long ago I made peace between my faith and my intellect.

Believe me when I say that there are many Conservative Evangelicals who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible but have similar beliefs as I. They just do not speak up. They are likely to be criticized from both the “Creationist” and the “Evolutionary” camps.

As far as your mentioning of Physics go, I find the whole issue of quantumly entangled particles APPEARING to communicate at faster than the speed of light quite interesting, given the fact that that should not be happening. I suspect that was one of the "spooky" issues you were alluding to.

I do not believe in evoluti

I do not believe in evolution to the point where a male and female offspring at the same time are produced that can't have sex and produce offspring with the species of their parents, but can have sex with each other and have offspring of themselves. That probability multiplied by the number of different species we have is 0.

That being said, that doesn't mean within a species evolution takes place. We have seen evidence to this...case in point horses use to be really small like dogs.

As far as taking the Bible literally or science too literally...both have their dogmas, "proof" and faith. It doesn't bother my testimony of God to think the earth is older than 6000 years. It just means I do not have a full understanding on how to interpret scripture which I believe to be true. Your take that its a rebuilding of the earth is interesting, never heard that explanation before. I can see how that makes sense.

As far as teaching intelligent design in schools, I think it can be taught without mentioning a super power or supreme being controlling the universe (because that is a conclusion that can't be measured, proved or disproved), like I did in the above paragraph on evolution. And explain like hdM explained, it doesn't disprove anything, it just means our current models don't explain it.

I think hdMs post should be understood by all students, as well as how market forces also influences what is accepted as science and truth ( then in a hundred years we laugh at our ancestors for their ignorance ) Global Warming is a good example of this. I especially liked his argument that we should call theories models, model is a much better description.

Conservative, You mention t

Conservative,

You mention the idea of teaching intelligent design in schools. My personal opinion has been that it should be, but not in a science class as a science. From my understanding, the fundamental assumption of "intelligent design" is that some intelligent, sentient being, force, whatever, had a hand in the creation of life and/or the universe. As opposed to Creationism, the being can be something like God, but not necessarily (a "super power or supreme being" as you say). The incorporation of this kind of supernatural agent, I suggest, prevents it from being a scientific theory. Not that that denigrates it, but according to science's own rules, it just can't be counted as scientific.

But you suggest that you can teach intelligent design without mentioning a supernatural agent. If my characterization of intelligent design theory is correct, then I can't see how you would do this. I'd be interested to know if you think it can and how.

But even beyond that, in order to teach it in a science class (and I know you didn't say this in your post, but it's typically what the argument is about) you would have to show why it should be considered a scientific theory. In my opinion, not allowing supernatural agents is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for something to count as a scientific model.

Your point about how exterior forces affect what is accepted in science is well taken. I think guys like Kuhn and Lakatos developed ideas about scientific evolution that incorporate this idea. I don't think the idea is some much that exterior forces affect how science is defined (but they probably do, to some extend) as dictate what areas of science or what models are considered important and worthy of study.

HydroThere is another book I'

Hydro

There is another book I'd recommend 'The Design Revolution' by William Dembski i've linked the table of contents and preface.  Here is a review of the book.  The point is we need to discern whether or not things are designed and how can we tell?  You correctly pointed out that the 'natural causes only' assertion of many (not all) in the scientific community is only an assertion and has no scientific basis.  If you listen carefully there is often an equivocation in the definition of science when the topic is brought up.  Def1:  scientific method, research, modelling and testing, etc.  Def2:  materialism. 

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, Thanks again for the

botg,

Thanks again for the link. I'll take a look at the review. Not sure if I'll ever get around to reading the book (I currently have dozens of books I've bought and never read that are more closely related to my area of work) but at the least, I can search around on the web for some reading on the topic.

I did want to comment on this statement of yours:

"You correctly pointed out that the 'natural causes only' assertion of many (not all) in the scientific community is only an assertion and has no scientific basis."

I don't agree with your use of the term "assertion" and your phrase "no scientific basis". The decision (not assertion) to not incorporate supernatural agents within its theories creates a characteristic which helps define what science is. Consequently, you can't really say it's "unscientific" since it's part of what defines what is scientific. You could maybe say that this decision results in models which are "unrealistic" (in your opinion) - meaning that they don't correspond to how things really are. I think you express this in your other post to me (below) when you say "it does not aid scientific investigation to limit the results a-priori".

I should point out, that the decision to exclude supernatural agents from science isn't done on a whim. There is a reason for it having to do with what science does accept as true - mainly, empirical evidence. When I use the term "supernatural", I mean entities or whatever, the existence or actions of which can not be verified independently by many people through empirical means. Or something like that. You can throw in something about repeatability under similar conditions if you want. Since science accepts as "true" things grounded in empirical evidence (ideally), it follows that it can not incorporate non-empirical (ie supernatural) elements into it's theories in any meaningful way.

The other thing I should point out is that science doesn't assert the non-existence of supernatural agents. Individual scientist might (as their own personal opinion), but science doesn't. By its own rules, science can't comment on supernatural agents, so it can't assert anything about them - certainly not that they definitely don't exist.

You speak of empirical eviden

You speak of empirical evidence and yet exclude possible outcomes?  That's not empiricism it's an a-priori exclusion! 

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, "yet you exclude

botg,

"yet you exclude possible outcomes?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "outcomes", or what part of the Wikipedia article I'm suppose to focus on.

Science (tries to) excluded accepting as fact that which is non-empirical in nature. Yes, you can call that an "a-priori" exclusion. I'm not saying anything that is startling. Your own link says that this is the central concept of science.

You can criticize science for doing this. You can say that science will never get a true understanding of how things are if it insists on doing this. But my argument (from the original post) is that there is really no way for any of us to know how things really are. Ultimately, we accept things as true on faith. If you think science is doing things wrong, that's ok. But I find it a nice challenge and I think science has made some progress with its approach. But you aren't obligated to view the results of science as the final word on things.

In the philosophy of science,

In the philosophy of science, empiricism is a theory of knowledge which emphasizes those aspects of scientific knowledge that are closely related to experience, especially as formed through deliberate experimental arrangements. It is a fundamental requirement of scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world(this is from Wiki not the finest of resources on such a topic but we need not be too specific here)

This speaks to the observations and tests in the natural world; that is in the premises; it does not exclude any possible results or causes.  When someone says that all causes must be natural that is an a-priori exclusion and not justified.

I too think that scientific investigation has produced some wonderful results but we do science a dis-service to when we assert materialism only.  (I know we disagree on this but i still hold that materialism only is an assertion) I also know that you are not saying anything startling for you are on the majority viewpoint of this issue.  Might i say in closing that the only constant in the philosophy of science is change?  I also take it that you teach science at some level?

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, OK, I think I get wha

botg,

OK, I think I get what you are saying: The consequences of a theory need to be checked against empirical evidence, but the causes for these consequences don't need to be empirical in nature - they can be supernatural.

The problem I see with that is that you can't consistently and uniquely derive empirically verifiable results from non-empirical (supernatural) causes.

If I present a theory to explain how electricity works and I suggest a natural cause - that it's the result of the exchange of photons, then this model will (based on the known empirical properties of photons) have certain unique (specific to this model) consequences that can be experimentally tested.

However, if I suggest that electrical effects derive from some supernatural agent, then by the very fact that it's supernatural, I have no way of knowing what its empirical properties (since it is non-empirical) and so there is no way for me to derive unique consequences from this model that will help me test it. You might say the consequences are one thing and I might say they are something else, but since supernatural agents, by definition, don't have known empirical properties, there is no way for us to see who is correct.

HydroFair enough, though i do

Hydro

Fair enough, though i doubt the origin of the universe (or abiogenesis, or speciation) is about to be empirically tested any time soon.  Though the research is ongoing (for example KOBE background radiation) which continues to confirm Big Bang cosmology.  (which mitigates against an eternal universe).  

Nice talking to you, sees ya later   

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, Thanks for the talk

botg,

Thanks for the talk, as well.

Honestly, you forced me put some of my vague thoughts into a more coherent (maybe) structure. So thanks for that.

Later

Hydro, Putting all the other

Hydro,

Putting all the other stuff aside, i believe that you have to reconcile you self-defeating 'truth' that you can't prove anything true.  We all live daily accepting many truths (ex: don't drive into oncoming traffic) or we are not around long.  Seems empirically verifiable to me.  As for me i believe in 'true truth' and thus have no problem posting or debating on topics while it seems you have spent many hours here trying to convince others of something you can not prove.  The Relativism book is an easy read and a good start imho.

I'll leave you the last word and will check back for you response (and to the punctuated equilibrium comment above)

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.   

botg, As I mentioned to you

botg,

As I mentioned to you in a prev