Ivy League Professor Bets Al Gore $10,000 He’s Wrong About Global Warming

Photo of Noel Sheppard.

As most right-thinking people are aware, soon-to-be-Dr. Al Gore has refused to debate scientists and politicians that disagree with his views on manmade global warming.

Of course, as you know, the debate's over.

Potentially realizing that Gore has turned down such challenges in the past, a Wharton professor is willing to put his money where his mouth is that Gore’s cataclysmic planetary predictions are wrong.

*****Critical Update after the break with more specifics about the challenge.

As marvelously reported by the Daily Pennsylvanian (emphasis added throughout):

For the past year, Al Gore has been the darling of environmentalists, as his popular documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, made their case about the dangers of global warming to people worldwide.

But now, Scott Armstrong, a Wharton Marketing professor, wants Al Gore to put his money where his mouth is.

Armstrong has challenged the former vice president to a 10-year bet, in which $10,000 from the two would be set aside in escrow as Gore pits his forecast of how much global temperature will increase during that time against a so-called "naive model," in which temperature would be expected to stay the same.

The winner would get to donate the $20,000 and accumulated interest to the charity of his choice.

How thoroughly delicious. Of course, I doubt highly that Gore, regardless of the millions of dollars he's earned in the past couple of years promoting his junk science, will accept the wager:

Armstrong explained that the idea of a bet arose out of research a colleague and he - both specialists in forecasting - had done on global-warming forecasts put out by Gore and organizations like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a United Nations-sponsored entity formed to help achieve scientific consensus on climate change.

Armstrong said that he discovered that most climate-change forecasts use bad methodology.

"We've been unable to find any scientific forecast, and what we have are forecasts by scientists," he said.

Armstrong and his colleague, Keston Green of Monash University in Australia, are presenting their findings in a paper to the International Symposium on Forecasting on Wednesday, but Armstrong said the bet is meant to serve as encouragement to his peers in the field "to start making forecasts for important problems" and not to question whether climate change is occurring, per se.

For those interested, one of Armstrong’s students, Kelly Jin, has created a website where you can follow the events surrounding this wager.

Also, folks should be aware that Armstrong is no lightweight when it comes to forecasting. As his Wharton bio outlines:

Professor Armstrong is internationally known for his pioneering work on forecasting methods. He is author of Long-Range Forecasting, the most frequently cited book on forecasting methods, and Principles of Forecasting, voted the “Favorite Book – First 25 Years” by researchers and practitioners associated with the International Institute of Forecasters. He is a co-founder of the Journal of Forecasting, the International Journal of Forecasting, the International Symposium on Forecasting, and forecastingprinciples.com. He is a co-developer of new methods including rule-based forecasting, causal forces for extrapolation, simulated interaction, and structured analogies.

In addition to forecasting, Professor Armstrong has published papers on survey research, educational methods, applied statistics, social responsibility, strategic planning, and scientific peer review. Most recently, his research activities have involved political forecasting (he is a co-founder of PollyVote.com) and forecasting for conflicts and terrorism. Among his findings is that competitor-oriented objectives are harmful to profits; formal planning improves profitability; and stakeholder management reduces social irresponsibility. He also developed the widely used “extrapolation-by-waves” method for estimating nonresponse bias in surveys.

Bravo, Scott.

*****Update: What follows are more specifics about the challenge as posted here:

The general objective of the challenge is to promote the proper use of science in formulating public policy. This involves such things as full disclosure of forecasting methods and data, and the proper testing of alternative methods. A specific objective is to develop useful methods to forecast global temperatures. Hopefully other competitors would join to show the value of their forecasting methods. These are objectives that we share and they can be achieved no matter who wins the challenge.

Al Gore is invited to select any currently available fully disclosed climate model to produce the forecasts (without human adjustments to the model’s forecasts). Scott Armstrong’s forecasts will be based on the naive (no-change) model; that is, for each of the ten years of the challenge, he will use the most recent year’s average temperature at each station as the forecast for each of the years in the future. The naïve model is a commonly used benchmark in assessing forecasting methods and it is a strong competitor when uncertainty is high or when improper forecasting methods have been used.

Specifically, the challenge will involve making forecasts for ten weather stations that are reliable and geographically dispersed. An independent panel composed of experts agreeable to both parties will designate the weather stations. Data from these sites will be listed on a public web site along with daily temperature readings and, when available, error scores for each contestant.

Starting at the beginning of 2008, one-year ahead forecasts then two-year ahead forecasts, and so on up to ten-year-ahead forecasts of annual “mean temperature” will be made annually for each weather station for each of the next ten years. Forecasts must be submitted by the end of the first working day in January. Each calendar year would end on December 31.

The criteria for accuracy would be the average absolute forecast error at each weather station. Averages across stations would be made for each forecast horizon (e.g., for a six-year ahead forecast). Finally, simple unweighted averages will be made of the forecast errors across all forecast horizons. For example, the average across the two-year ahead forecast errors would receive the same weight as that across the nine-year-ahead forecast errors. This unweighted average would be used as the criterion for determining the winner.

Terms of the challenge can be modified by mutual agreement.

If Al Gore accepts the challenge, each party would invest $10,000 in a mutually agreed Charitable Trust stock account on December 1, 2007. The charity will receive the total value in the fund when the official award is made at the annual International Symposium on Forecasting in 2018. Should Scott Armstrong win, the gift would be made to the International Symposium on Forecasting, in Arlington, Virginia. Should Al Gore win, he will designate the charity.

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.


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It's not just Gore, Noel

It's not just Gore, Noel.   Are you aware of ANY of the leading Anthropogenic Warmists who will agree to a debate?

RJ

RJ,

None. Wouldn't you think that when Larry King had Lindzen on a few months back, they tried to get somebody like Hansen, but couldn't? Instead, they got Heidi Cullen and Bill Nye to represent the alarmists. What a joke.

As you and I and all of the skeptics know, the reason the debate was declared over is because the science doesn't support the view of the alarmists. As such, they have to posture about a consensus and the science being settled because their positions can't possibly survive scrutiny and they know it!   ns

I read an article yesterday a

I read an article yesterday about reserachers in canada, that were looking into the fisheries off the eas coast, to see if they could tell which years would be good and which would be bad, (fishing), so to set the quotas. He reported that it ran in 11 year cycles, with the sun spots. The higher the number of sun spots, the warmer the temps and the more fish there were. He said that this solar cycle was going to be of low intensity comming up, and folks should prepare for cooler temps.

Today you will find on drudge that paris is going to sizzle and the mediterranean is going to wilt. Algore is going to fade into oblivion when this winter is one of the coldest. Here in Oklahoma, we havent hit 90 degrees yet. Normaly we have had one or two 100 degree days by now.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Bass

Bass,

Yeah, that's Patterson's piece. Great stuff. Media ignored it.

The problem now is that if we do begin cooling, the alarmists will say that's just part of climate change. They've so properly framed this debate that anything that happens with the weather proves them right. It's really absurd.  ns

Actually, I think if we do

Actually, I think if we do start cooling and I believe we will, the eco-nuts will just say their methods are working and call for more regulations and restrictions.

"Media ignored it...&quo

"Media ignored it..."

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the Hillary talk radio thread.  The facts don't support the Left's position, so they avoid them, or try to control their dissemination...

Debate, discussion, examination of facts...all work against the Lib position, thus "the debate is over."

I'm more afraid that if we be

I'm more afraid that if we begin cooling, the alarmists will then claim "see? starting to enact policies is helping!" In other words, they'll try to take credit for it no matter how slight the drop in temperature or ludicrious.

(p.s. Noel, did you ever get my PM?)

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

CG..thats going to be a tuff

CG..thats going to be a tuff sale. Unless the CO2 levels are down alot, and they wont  be. CO2 levels will be higher than they are now. No matter how you look at it. CO2 as a green house gas will forever after be a hard sale to global warming. I look for them to blame Karl Rove and his weather machine.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

I don't know what part of O

I don't know what part of Oklahoma you live in but where I live it has managed to hit over 90, if just barely, at high noon. Still, its not a very warm summer for... um.. summer.

Arepublican, I live kinda in

Arepublican, I live kinda in the middle. They have said it was going to get to 90. Was supposed to on Wed, but was overcast and rain and never made it past 80 here at the airport, which is where I work. Warmest day so far here has been 88. Thats close, but no cigar. Might make it today tho. Mild summer so far. Last May it hit 100 degrees one or two days. But then it most always does. Been good for the lakes to. Been in a drought for the last 5 or 7 years. Now we have rain, lakes are full, or above normal elevation.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

So, yesterday I had The Weath

So, yesterday I had The Weather Channel on during the afternoon because there were storms riding through here in NE Ohio.  Every damn time I walked through the kitchen Dr. Heidi Fleiss ... er, Cullen had her skinny mug on TV ... Instructing which things to water in your yard first ... Use of sun screen ... Blah-blah-blah ... So, not only is she a "weather expert", but she's also a "botanist expert" and "medical expert" ...  This woman has WAAAAAYYY too much exposure and importance on that station.

Aside from the radar, everything else on TWC is either purely speculation ... or fiction.

I heard that this has become

I heard that this has become a major source of in-fighting at TWC, with about half of the meteorologists buying into these theories and the other half claiming that they are preposterous.

Man, I certainly hope there i

Man, I certainly hope there is at least a little concern at TWC by the few that have at least bothered to study SOME climatology....  Surely they've HEARD of Ice AgeS and other climatological variation occurring before the invention cars..... Surely....  Please somebody help me here...... They can't ALL be serious....can they?

Welcome to my world.  In the Land of the Insane, the merely deluded must seem prophetic and visionary.

Congress: Do your Duty!  Enforce Article 4 Sect 4 of the Constitution!

You're right.  In the Land o

You're right.  In the Land of the Insane, the half-brained man is king.

Excellent!  Discussion, deba

Excellent!  Discussion, debate, thinking ...

Are the two camps really divided 50/50, Phan?

That's what I heard.  I wish

That's what I heard.  I wish I knew who stood where and why because I actually really like TWC and don't want anything but facts from them.  If I want opinions, I can get them from many, many places.  To me, TWC must be objective.

Perhaps it's time for a secon

Perhaps it's time for a second weather channel on cable?  They've obviously had the monopoly long enough.

RJ you're right

The Vast Left Wing Consensus is shrinking fast.  The bandwagon has lost a wheel and some of the guys hope to be called scientists again someday.

Now, we're talking.  We all

Now, we're talking.  We all know that cliche about sunlight being the best disinfectant. 

Gore needs to be openly challenged.  Even the MSM would cover that, because they are so confident that he can defeat the so-called 'flat earthers.'

Get Armstrong, or Lindzen, or Lomborg up there in front of the cameras with him, and Gore will wilt.

By the way, a Danish newspaper offered Gore a considerable sum of money to come to Denmark and debate Danish professor Bjorn Lomborg ("The Skeptical Envirnmentalist"); Gore declined.

Gore is a big chicken!

If he is so sure of himself, he will debate.  Obviously he is scared that someone may actually stand up to his rantings.  Which is typical of most liberals.  And even if one of us "skeptics" did debate him, would it even get media attention?  But then again, I forgot, the debate is over. There is a consensus! Global Warming exists, is the fault of we evil humans, especially in the USA, and we are all going die as a result.  Yeah, right, sure.  Oh by the way, where I am right now at 10:47 a.m., it's 64 degrees F.  This on the first full day of summer.  Can somone please tell me where the warming is????

Oiz

The debate IS over - may not

The debate IS over - may not have ever really begun: The Global Warming Chicken Littles lost a LONG time ago but everyone who reports just forgets that little part of the report.

The debate is over!  There is a consensus!  Al Gore lost!

See what a difference the whole story makes?

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

Like I have said...

The battle cry of liberals: "Our minds are made up - don't confuse us with the facts!"

Help control the game show host population by having Bob Barker spayed or neutered.

Or to the dyslexic liberal...

Or to the dyslexic liberal...

"Our facts are made up - don't confuse us with your minds!"

When asked if he went to war with Iraq  to derail the impeachment
vote:  “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Since the "debate is ove

Since the "debate is over" Al Gore won't accept.

Hi Florida_Chad,I truly belie

Hi Florida_Chad,

I truly believe that is why Gore won't accept.  In his mind it would be like accepting a debate with a person who claim the earth is flat.

Dutch

Hey Darth - I think that is w

Hey Darth - I think that is why he declared the debate over. I saw him in some interview saying that he wasn't going to focus on answering the critics anymore. He was moving forward with trying to fix the problem.

The more important question i

The more important question is if there were to be a debate (televised, of course) would Gore wear that great make-up he had on during one of his 2000 debates with George Bush?

He could give John Travolta (Hairspray) a run for his money ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=463595&in_page_id=1773

most climate-change forecasts

most climate-change forecasts use bad methodology

If you research AGW, it doesn't take long for this to become evident.  From computer models that do not "predict" observations to the location of thermometers to (my favorite) reliance on inferred temperatures prior to 1880, the theory of AGW is built on questionable science.

(Can I get a piece of this action ...?)

These kinds of bets require

These kinds of bets require semantic parsing in a "what the meaning of 'is' is" manner, so might I ask a simple question regarding a topic we've repeatedly-covered over the past few days? Namely, whose measurements, from what/what-kind-of temperature measuring stations?
JMR

Seems like the the 3rd thru 5

Seems like the the 3rd thru 5th- to-last paragraphs described the criteria and process for selecting the temp stations.....

Congress: Do your Duty!  Enforce Article 4 Sect 4 of the Constitution!

Algore won't take the bet -

Algore won't take the bet -- He doesn't believe what he's selling. He might still be travelling the world telling everyone else how to live, but if he really believed a crisis is imminent, he would have long ago done something real to reduce his home energy usage.

Lee T.

U.S. Navy (ret.) / Vancouver, Washington

The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal.-- Mark Twain

Gore's tactics, as he so well

Gore's tactics, as he so well demonstrated before Boxer's subcommittee several months ago, is to spew out a few mega-syllabic chemical names to sound authoritative, and then immediately proclaim "But then I'm no scientist, so you'll have to talk to the experts about the details."  This has the effect of making him look knowledgeable while simultaneous insulating himself from challenges to his inflated claims; it should also be noted that he neither forwarded his paper 72 hours prior to his appearance as the Senate requires, nor allowed himself to be sworn in under oath.  And quite a show at the Senate, when you think about it, when Gore is invited in as an SME (subject matter expert) and he declares that "I'm no expert." 

The fact that this buffoon is the international spokeman for GW speaks volumes about the so-called 'consensus.' 

I think we need to have a poo

I think we need to have a pool so we can wager for who wins as well. I'll bet you could put money on this contest (if it happens) in Vegas.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson

I would rather take the money

I would rather take the money that would end up in the pool and help seed Armstrong's bet.  Imagine an organized effort to up the ante and make the bet say $50,000 or $100k or more using donations from the vast majority of people who know AGW is complete hogwash.   

It would make Gore look even more foolish if he did not take the bet and you published the number of contributors.

I was thinking along those li

I was thinking along those lines originally, but I think many people wouldn't wager unless there was a possible monetary reward. Plus, you never know what charity will receive the winnings...(i.e. Republicans for Abortion Rights (a hypothetical charity organization)).

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson

Maybe NB can put together a M

Maybe NB can put together a Million Dollar Challenge for AGW much like the JREF has at http://www.randi.org.   That would be interesting. 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

I know I'll be called a rig

I know I'll be called a right-wing bible-thumping "AGW Denier", but I read a great article from the people at "Creation Moments":

Did you know that a tree is aerodynamically more sleek than the smoothest jet plane? As the wind blows, the leaves and branches of tree move, allowing the wind to pass. As a result, the tree has less aerodynamic drag than a jet plane.

The creation is full of examples of the Creator's principle that life needs to be resilient to change. This means that, for the sake of survival, life is not rigidly designed but has certain flexibility.

Much is said today about an increase in carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere and concern is expressed about global warming. However, man's production of carbon dioxide is infinitesimal compared to the carbon dioxide from volcanic eruptions. Now science is learning how plants are designed to regulate carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. When carbon dioxide levels increase, many plants increase their absorption of carbon dioxide, at the same time making more oxygen available. With increasing carbon dioxide levels, plants also tend to produce tissue that decays less easily. This ties up the excess carbon for longer periods of time.

Our Creator expects us to take care of His creation. However, He knows that we cannot change conditions on planet earth that are beyond our control. For this reason He has built mechanisms into the creation that adjust to stabilize changing conditions. How wise He is in His goodness to us!

The arrogance of some people never ceases to amaze me - that they think we puny humans (even all the billions of us) can have any significant or measurable effect on a system as large and complex as the Earth's atmosphere is laughable.

Kahuna

You have been given the choice between war and dishonor. You have chosen dishonor, and you will have both.

--Winston Churchill to Neville Chamberlain

}}----> Good post Atilla

But you're still right-wing bible-thumping "AGW Denier"

AK...You said it all...Thank

AK...

You said it all...

Thank you, I enjoyed your post more than you know.

As a firmly agnostic conserva

As a firmly agnostic conservative and engineer and licensed aircraft mechanic....   I gotta laugh (and cry about our educational system...)..... How quaint.... "the tree's limbs bend so wind just slips by"....  HA HAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!      Wow! Just wow!   Those big, hard airplanes don't bend so therefore a tree is more aerodynamic.    Wow! Such reasoning is unbelievable........

I'll match your tree against a plane in a wind tunnel test, any day!!!!

Tell ya what, lets just see how your tree holds up to 300-400 mph winds and how much resistance it has compared to a modern plane.....

It is EXACTLY this type of BS reasoning that continues to support creationism.....  

You can only deny the evidence so long before you marginalize yourself...  basically covering your ears and saying "BLAH BLAH BLAH, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!" isn't a very mature response.....

Science and Reason are the answer, not 4000, 2000 or 1400 year old mythologies and ravings of lunatics that "spoke" to god. 

Congress: Do your Duty!  Enforce Article 4 Sect 4 of the Constitution!

}}----> mythologies

Thus endeth our session in Zen and the Art of Airplane Maintenance.

"Blah Blah Blah I can't

"Blah Blah Blah I can't hear you" is exactly the tone of your response, and is typical of fact-denying, agnostic-know-it-alls (which is a contradiction in terms) who think "Ha Ha Ha" is a valid argument.

Evolution has never been observed or proven, so to behave as if it is a fact is the height of blind arrogance and ignorance.

You want to dispute someone, try this guy: http://www.uark.edu/~cdm/creation/

mattm, I recall a pretty le

mattm,

I recall a pretty lengthy discussion that we had about this topic some time back. From your comments, it's obvious that it was a waste of time.

First, scientific theories are not "proven".

Second, your criticism that evolution hasn't been observed - the implication, I guess, being that that makes evolution nonscientific - could be leveled against a ton of other scientific theories (stellar and galactic evolution comes to mind). I'm just wondering if you find astronomers equally arrogant about their theories as you do people who support evolution?

Lastly, the individual in your link seems to start from a standpoint that most scientists would reject - that you can incorporate supernatural causes in a legitimate scientific theory. (Note, I only read the intro page, so if his argument is more subtle, I'll admit I'm wrong on this). Consequently, most scientists won't be swayed by his arguments.

And you, hydro, seem to start

And you, hydro, seem to start from the standpoint that somehow incorporating Supernatural causes is contradictory to scientific theory.

I realize that many are comforted by the arrogant belief that they are as good as it gets - spiritually, mentally, whatever ("Please God, butt out.  We don't need you.  We know everything."  Kind of sounds like getting help from a two-year-old).  When you Meet your maker face to face your position is going to feel embarrassingly weak.

But enjoy your moment.  God is gracious and won't yank it from you.

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

HelenS, The standpoint that

HelenS,

The standpoint that science doesn't incorporate supernatural causes isn't my standpoint - it's generally accepted within the scientific community. But then, I'm just one guy - if you can find a ton of scientists that disagree with this, I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong.

Your comment about my arrogance is unwarranted. You know nothing about my world view or the importance I place in science vs other forms of explanation of the world. So you might want pull back your judgmental fangs until I say something that is worthy of that kind of condescension.

Lastly, if you going to post off of one of my comments, you might want to actually address what I said. Is there anything in my post that you would like to discuss?

Hydro,There are two premises

Hydro,

There are two premises that I wanted to mention briefly:  one - science is ONLY equipped to observe or study recurring phenomena.  There is such a thing as a one-time event that has to be either accepted or rejected but are never reproducible.  Science is the observation and study of the world around us so things like creation, the flood (I'll give you a moment to recover...) the alleged big bang bada bing bam to name a few.

There is no more conclusive proof for your position than there is for mine by the very nature of the phenomena under discussion.

Which brings me to my other point: as I've said before, I'm not nor have I ever been a herd animal so I don't need a ton of scientists to agree or disagree with me in order for me to read the Bible and understand the concepts in it.  It's pretty straight forward.  I discard a theory if it disagrees with scripture.  I do no discard scripture if it disagrees with anyone's theory.  So no, I don't have a ton of scientists to throw at you.  I could recommend the truth, however.

And about the fangs?  I have a dentist appointment on the 29th at 2 p.m.  Maybe I'll mention it to him, see if he can trim them for me.  Or even de-fang me! 

p.s. You might compare your statement in your post prior to my previous one and compare your wording to the verbiage with which I opened my comment addressing the wording with which you dealt with the topic of supernatural causes in alleged scientific circles and discuss the subtle yet apparent clarity of connectivity from one opening salvo to the other.  OK?  Tha's all I'm sayin' yo.

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

HelenS, All the things you

HelenS,

All the things you say about the limitations of science and proof I know and agree with. In fact, sometime today I'll post something in the forums about this topic (If you're willing to read all six pages of it, I'd like your feedback on it).

I respect your process for deciding what to accept as true and what not too. Again, my forum post will address this stuff in general. I'm just curious if you respect those who accept evolution over creationism. (You seem reasonable, so I'm guessing I know the answer to that).

Regarding the wording and tone of my first post - it was not directed at you, it was to mattm. We had a lengthy discussion about this topic some time back and the attitude I adopted was toward him with that history in mind.

p.s. Good luck at the dentist. I have to make an appointment myself soon - been putting it off cause, well, I'm a chicken when it comes to that stuff.

I'm wandering off for the day

I'm wandering off for the day in about 15 minutes so I may not be around to find your post about the limitations of science.  I would love to read it if there is a way for me to find it on Monday!

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

HelenS, I'll post it in the

HelenS,

I'll post it in the "forum" section of this site (see top this page), in the "Off-Topic Discussion" section. I'll probably label it "Evolution and the Conservative" or something like that.

Thanks for the interest and have a good weekend.

I look forward to joining you

I look forward to joining you...

Science is just as much a faith as Christianity...and Christians observe repeating phenomena just as much as scientists do...

It's fun to see the science crowd try to deny this...

Me thinks this will be a live

Me thinks this will be a lively thread in the forum.

TruthMonger, I've spent a r

TruthMonger,

I've spent a reasonable amount of time talking with scientists from lots of fields - and thought the topic doesn't come up that often, it does occasionally. The "scientific crowd" doesn't generally deny what you said. The vast major of scientists I've met are people of faith.

Don't base your view of scientists off of some cartoon of them.

dear hydro...

No offense my opinion is based upon talking to people like you as well as scientists with doctoral degrees on a weekly basis - some are religious some aren't - about an even 50/50 in my experience...about 100 or so spoken to...

Most non-religious scientists deny that science is a faith...

Your not making assumptions about me based on an MSM cartoon are you?

Truth, Your comment about t

Truth,

Your comment about the "scientific crowd" let me to believe you were making a general statement. Thanks for the clarification.

And no offense taken - from someone who works in and has a degree in science ;)

thanks hydro

No problemo at all - appreciate your insights! And so why not make it 101 - is science a faith or not:)? And yes or no is fine - 1000 words still boil down to the same...

Truth, Yes. But I like to h

Truth,

Yes.

But I like to hear myself type, so I have to explain why in about six pages.

thanks hydro

Thanks much for your opinion!And you can type away if you want to:)...

As you can see my research on this hasn't been all that scientific:)! About as inconclusive as you can get really...

It'll be fun.  Thank you for

It'll be fun.  Thank you for the head's up on where to find you on Monday :o)

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

HelenS,All this talk of fangs

HelenS,

All this talk of fangs leaves me with a mental picture of Lauren Hutton in some bad 80's vampire movie. Once Bitten?

BTW - I loved your PS to the post.

Hmmm, a ton of scientists; Il

Hmmm, a ton of scientists; Ill take you up on that offer.  Scientifically speaking a ton is 2000 puonds unless you use a long ton and then its 2200.  So we will use the long ton for this exercise just to throw you some crumbs.  If we take teh average body weight of 150 pounds and divide it into 2200 we get 14 and some change so we will for more crumbs round up to 15.

I think I can round up 15 scientists but will you honor what you said or are you honorable?

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.

Dan, I like your reasoning

Dan,

I like your reasoning on this. I think, however, you chose an average weight that put you at a disadvantage. If you concentrate on pudgy scientists, you could drop your number down to about 10.

But to be serious, I would actually be interested to know of any reasonable number of scientists who not only feel it's ok to incorporate supernatural elements into their work but actually do so with success.

I anticipate, however, that a discussion of what defines a "real scientist" will follow, so, in anticipation of that, I'll say that they have to publish regularly (however you want to define that) in the recognized journals of their respective fields.

Good luck.

Are we taliking about dead on

Are we taliking about dead ones too? 

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.

Dan, Well, yes, but let's k

Dan,

Well, yes, but let's keep it to the last century. My view on science is from the present day perspective. Using examples of scientists who are currently active is what I had in mind.

Since the definition of science has changed so much over the centuries, it probably wouldn't be too tough to find examples of scientists trying to incorporate supernatural elements into their theories a few centuries back (I'm thinking before Francis Bacon).

Hydrodyn, I ran a search on &

Hydrodyn, I ran a search on "scientists who believe in creation", and in 0.41 seconds the search engine turned up over 10 pages of sites dealing with this topic.  Here is just one of the sites.  Included is a partial list of present and past scientists (defined in the article as those who have at least a Master's degree in an acknowledged field of science) who believe in creation.

This post is not an endorsement of the site, nor is it an endorsement of the beliefs of those scientists listed.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx.  An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx."  Ronald Reagan

Obviously you didn't listen t

Obviously you didn't listen to my points.  I thoroughly answered every single one of your points, but your responses demonstrated to me that you had no intention of even considering my points. - So, yeah, it was a waste of time.

First: If scientific theories aren't proven, then why do so many of you know-it-all scientists act as if they are?

Second: Your implication is based on your own bias.  I never said evolution was non-scientific.  It is YOU who are saying Creation is not scientific.  I've always maintained (and it's a verifiable fact) that evolution and creation are equally scientific and equally religious (or philosophy-based).  This is a point that the Agnostics and Atheists refuse to concede, because to do so would destroy the basis for their "Scientific High Ground" position. Who gets to decide what is and what is not science? And you wonder why I see arrogance in people who make those kinds of presumptuous arguments? 

It's not the people who support evolution that I find arrogant, it's the people who laugh at people who don't support it, and people who think "ha ha ha" is a valid argument.  Why are you so sensitive to the arrogance charge?

Lastly, whether "most scientists" reject something is a pointless argument.  Science is not determined by a majority vote. If you want to define "science" in such a way as to fit into your particular philosophy, that's up to you.  But that is religious decision on your part, and not a scientific one; and it's exactly what the Left does in order to control, or end the debate on any issue.

BTW, if you want to throw your degree in my face: the guy who designed this also had a degree. http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1095302542&fr=yfp-t-482

mattm,How science is presen

mattm,

How science is presented and how it's understood within science are two different things. We talked about this before. It's a matter of laziness on the part of scientists to use terms like "true" and "proven". But the alternative is to expect that folks outside of science will understand why this is - most don't and most don't really care.

I recall your point about how creationism and evolution share certain characteristics that put them on par with one another. I didn't agree then and I don't now. If you want to define science in a way that makes you comfortable, go right ahead. What difference does it make? Me? I'll stick with the definition that scientists use.

I agree that the arrogance shown by SoftRight is unwarranted. No argument there.

By the way. I stopped responding in our previous discussion because your points were becoming more and more chaotic. I basically couldn't follow you. But, if you want to pick up were we left off, I'd be more than happy to.

How can you not see the arrog

How can you not see the arrogance in statements like "to expect that folks outside of science will understand why this is - most don't..."

You may find this a tough pill to swallow, but disagreeing with my points doesn't make you right about them.

If my arguments, in our previous discussion, seemed chaotic it was because I was forced to try to follow your meandering into side issues and questions of semantics which missed the whole point - which I think was intentional.

I'll take the scientific definition of science...not for my comfort (another typically arrogant and condescending statement on your part) but for the facts.  It's YOU who want to define science in such a way as to fit your prejudices, and your philosophy.

mattm, So you're gonna tell

mattm,

So you're gonna tell me that our current understandings about what defines science - something that has taken centuries of thought by thousands of people - is so obvious to everyone else, that I should just assume that everyone knows it intuitively?

Who's being arrogant? I guess them dumb ass philosophers have just been wasting their time, right?

And if you can find a single place in any of my posts where I said "I am right", I'd be interested in seeing it (man, I hope that doesn't back fire on me).

Look, mattm. I think I get you. You appreciate science in general. But you have a real problem reconciling some areas of science with your understanding of scripture. So you denigrate those areas. You suggest they are no more scientific than your views on those topics. You accuse scientists in those fields or being arrogant and not understanding what science really is. I get it.

The problem is, when we get down into the details of your criticisms, it turns out that you could level them against just about any theory in science. And yet, you don't seem to have a problem with scientists who extol the virtues of Relativity or those who work on models of galactic evolution. Nope. You only find those scientists who work in areas that you can't reconcile with your faith to be arrogant jerks who don't understand what science is really about.

Why is that?

No, Hydro, I don't think you

No, Hydro, I don't think you get it. You're making a ton of assumptions.

Your last sentence is a perfect example.

First, You're assuming there are areas of science that I feel can't be reconciled with my faith. I don't think that. 

Second, you assume I'm calling certain scientists who work in certain fields arrogant jerks, when I'm merely referring to the tone or the basis of particular statements they make.

Thirdly, you assume I'm saying certain people don't understand what science is all about.  I didn't say or imply that, merely that some people use the mantle of "science" in order to shut off debate.

The problem is basically philosophical.  Certain people hold to a particular philosophy which they try to buttress with science.  But, when someone of another philosophy comes along with scientific arguments which challenge their philosophy, they say "Shut up, we're scientists.  You have no part in this discussion."  And they use this position of scientific superiority which they set up for themselves to push their philosophy into the ascendency.

That's the attitude I find, not only arrogant, but scientifically invalid.  And if you are a reasonable person, I don't see how you can disagree with that.

mattm, Notice how I said &q

mattm,

Notice how I said "I think I get you"? That's a way of saying that I'm going to express an opinion and so probably make some assumptions.

I know you try to argue that certain areas of science do in fact agree with your faith. But as far as I can tell, you do it by redefining science in a way that suits you.

Arrogant scientist vs Arrogant statement made by scientist. Ok.

As for you last comments - are you talking about me? I've been more than happy to engage you in conversation about this. So if you aren't talking about me, then what's your point? That there are scientists who aren't nice? Got news for you - there are people of faith with all those same negative attitudes you mention.

As long as we're sharing, for the record, I don't like people who use the mantel and authority of religion to denigrate science. Now that I got that off my chest, I feel all warm and fuzzy.

But like I said, if you want to continue our discussion from before, ok. And for the record, if you'd like me to post all of our previous discussion here for others to judge, I'd be happy to. They can decide how concise your responses were and how meandering I was. I'd be happy to accept the criticism.

By the way, I'll post something in the forum here later today which addresses a lot of this stuff. I'd be interested on your take on it.

You think my point is that so

You think my point is that some scientists aren't nice?  How could you possibly interpret it that way? 

You made declaratory statements of an apparent factual nature.  I pointed out that you were basing those statements on assumptions.  So you reply by claiming they were opinions.  This is what I meant by meandering. 

But, go ahead and post whatever you think is relevant. 

I will say only one more thing:  I do not try to argue by way of redefining science in a way that suits me. I argue against that very practice, especially when it's used, not only to denigrate anyone or anything, but to shut off debate.

mattm,

mattm,

First, I'd like you to point out where in my post I said that it was your overall point that scientists aren't nice. I was specifically addressing a couple of the comments you made.

Second, I'm sorry if you don't know how to tell when I'm expressing opinion and when I'm asserting something as fact. I'd be willing to bet that most people reading my posts can tell the difference. But if you would like, I can start all of my sentences with "In my opinion" when that's what I'm doing. How's this - in my opinion, you do know the difference and are just playing dumb.

Last, in my opinion, your point seems to be that some scientists in certain areas have accepted such a narrow view of what science in their area of work is that it causes them to reject certain ideas or theories that do, in fact, have scientific merit.

Seems reasonable, in my opinion. But in my opinion, you have failed to explain why the theories or ideas you hold true have scientific merit. From what I recall (that's kind of like "in my opinion") you tried to do this by pointing out weaknesses in (specifically) evolution that (in my opinion) could be leveled against the vast majority of scientific theories out there. That, in my opinion, amounts to a redefinition of what should count as scientific.

<edited>

You aren't specifically tryin

You aren't specifically trying to refer to anything, you're simply deflecting again.  You aren't the least bit interested in my points. You either deliberately misinterpret them, or you claim I said things I never said - and you do this simply in order to denigrate me; as your "in my opinion" ridiculousness clearly demonstrates. 

Go back a few posts if you want to try to actually figure out what my point was.

[UPDATE]

I posted a response in the forum. (I hope you'll find it a bit less contentious than these threads tend to get.)

How can you not see the arrog

DP

......soooooo, fossils are ju