When it was announced Tuesday that China surpassed the United States as the world’s leading emitter of carbon dioxide, NewsBusters asked, “Will Media Notice?”
In reality, the answer is a mixed windbag, with most press outlets totally ignoring the revelation, and a few actually blaming the problem on – wait for it! – the United States. I kid you not.
However, before we address that stupidity, it first must be relayed that not one of the television news outlets bothered reporting the Chinese CO2 data at all. It appears that television news divisions only feel CO2 is a problem if it’s emitted by American corporations or citizens.
As for the print media, the few that did cover this story either gave it very little attention, or made some fairly predictable excuses for why it’s okay as the planet nears its seemingly inevitable doom at the hands of greenhouse gases for China to be the leading “polluter.”
For instance, the New York Times devoted a total of 83 words to this story in its “World Briefing Asia” section Thursday on page A12 (no link available):
China has overtaken the United States as the top emitter of carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas, because of surging energy use in its economic boom, a Dutch environmental agency said. Other experts have estimated that China will not surpass the United States until as late as next year. ''But whether it is 2006 or 2007 is not the key issue,'' said Fatih Birol, chief economist of the International Energy Agency. ''What is key is that China is becoming the world's top carbon dioxide emitter.''
That was all the print-space the Times felt this story deserved.
Alas, that was more than the Washington Post and USA Today devoted to this story, as LexisNexis and Google News searches identified not one word printed about this in those leading papers.
Not one.
Does this suggest that CO2 really isn’t the problem, and that all this focus on U.S. emissions of this gas is – forgive the pun – a lot of hot air?
After all, if greenhouse gases (GHGs) are indeed destroying the planet, given the media’s focus on manmade global warming, shouldn’t it have been front-page, headline, lead story news that the country with the largest population – which has now just begun an extraordinary economic expansion – has become the largest emiitter of CO2 in the world?
Seems not. In fact, the publications that did give focus to the story made excuses for why China should be given a pass for its gas.
For instance, the Los Angeles Times devoted 1032 words to this story, although placed on page A3 (emphasis added):
Even if that already has occurred, China's per capita emissions are only about one-eighth the average for the wealthier industrialized countries of Europe and North America, Birol said. At current projected growth rates, China's per capita emissions in 2030 still will be only one-third those of the West, he added.
Interesting excuse, isn’t it? After all, the alarmists claim that CO2 is killing the planet, correct? And, we need to do everything possible to immediately halt the continually increasing emission of this GHG or low lying areas will be flooded, species will go extinct, and mankind’s very existence on this planet will be in jeopardy.
If this is the case, why are per capita emissions at all relevant? Isn’t this kind of like a homicide division not worrying about finding sole murderers when there are serial killers still at large?
Or, to put this in more of a “green” perspective, should the Environmental Protection Agency only concern itself with the largest polluters, but ignore the greater number of smaller ones?
For example, let’s assume that you have five major corporations dumping hazardous waste into the San Francisco Bay. One of them is responsible for 49 percent of such dumping, while the other four dump the remaining 51 percent shared equally between them.
Should the EPA ignore the four lesser polluters because they’re each only polluting a quarter as much as the largest one? Pretty illogical, isn’t it?
Regardless, isn't comparing per capita emissions specious on another level altogether? If you really want to compare a country's GHG impact on the planet, isn't land mass somewhat more relevant than population?
As such, shouldn't a nation's CO2 emissions as a function of its size be a better way to compare environmental impact on the atmosphere? If that is the case, given that China is "slightly smaller than the US," it now leads America in emissions per acre. Just something to consider that the media choose not to.
Yet, maybe even more preposterous than this per capita emissions discussion was the Associated Press’s take in a piece entitled “China: Criticism of CO2 Emissions Unfair” (emphasis added):
Developed countries are hypocritical for criticizing China's greenhouse gas emissions while buying products from its booming manufacturing industry, Beijing said Thursday.
For those keeping score, that was the opening paragraph:
Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang called China the "world's factory" and said criticism of its increased emissions was unfair.
"The developed countries move a lot of manufacturing industry into China. A lot of the things you wear, you use, you eat are produced in China," he said at a regular news briefing. "On the one hand, you shall increase the production in China, on the other hand you criticize China on the emission reduction issue."
Unfortunately, AP writer Anita Chang, after presenting this incredibly specious position by Gang, chose not to refute it in any way, or quote folks who did. As such, I feel compelled to do her job for her.
To begin with, the piece mentioned that China’s CO2 emissions have been skyrocketing due to, amongst other things, that nation’s “voracious coal consumption.” In fact, “China relies on coal for two-thirds of its energy needs.”
Is this energy exclusively being used for the production of exports, or do inhabitants use electricity as well? Doesn't some of this energy usage go to the creation of products for said inhabitants, or does China export everything it produces?
Chang conveniently chose not to address this.
Furthermore, can every nation get a pass for the CO2 it emits related to exports, or just China?
After all, according to the CIA’s World Factbook, China trailed the European Union, Germany, and the United States in total exports for the year 2006 (estimates all). Shouldn’t these entities also be allowed to reduce their net CO2 emissions by those specifically related to the production and transport of their exports? Or, does only China get such a convenience?
And, doesn't China benefit from all of the money it takes in for selling these exports, or are Chinese corporations giving everything away for free? Don't these export revenues help the economy and result in increased employment and an improved lifestyle for the citizens, or are these people all slaves for western imperialists?
Obviously, such positive economic ramifications were totally ignored by press representatives suggesting that China's economic boom and its resulting increases in GHG emissions only benefit America and the West.
Finally, it is interesting to note how the press all seem okay with China’s growing CO2 problem being related to the strength of its economy. For instance, this from the LA Times piece: “China's emissions have outpaced predictions because the economy has grown faster than expected.”
So, it’s okay for a country’s CO2 emissions to expand if it’s caused by economic growth? Outstanding. Then, why isn’t this also true for developed nations?
After all, the nations of the West still need to expand their economies to feed their citizens. If the media can realize that with increased economic growth in China comes increased GHG emissions, then shouldn’t all countries who are seeing such growth get a pass for increasing their emissions as well?
As the reader likely has concluded, herein lies the real media hypocrisy, for none of this is about CO2 emissions or GHGs. If that was the case, a new national leader in death-causing emissions would have indeed been front-page, lead story news with experts expressing grave concern for the planet.
Instead, the media’s response to this report or lack thereof indicates that they couldn’t care less about GHGs or global warming. This is all about taking down the big bad wolf of western capitalism, and any pretense to the contrary is totally belied by how Tuesday’s China news ended up not being news at all.
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.




















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Comments Policy
Ahhhhh....When isn't it OUR f
June 21, 2007 - 18:19 ET by bigtimerAhhhhh....
When isn't it OUR fault with the leftist msm...especially when there is President with an 'R' behind his name.
Bush's fault is the norm...no matter the venue here or world-wide.
Even if a Dem gets in power they still blame the repub administration that preceded it.
It do get old.
In fact, the publications tha
June 21, 2007 - 18:27 ET by drillanwrIn fact, the publications that did give focus to the story made excuses for why China should be given a pass for its gas.
Well, not sure one should use the words "pass" and "gas" so close together in the same sentence. ; ^ )
Also, I am so sick of China not being considered a "developing country". Excuse me, but if a country has thousands of multiple warheads that could, in effect, lay to devastating uninhabitable wasteland for decades to come half, if not most, of the planet ... I'd say it's a safe bet that country is "developed".
Drill
June 21, 2007 - 18:34 ET by Noel SheppardDrill,
Ummm...that was the point. :-) ns
: ^ ))
June 21, 2007 - 18:37 ET by drillanwr: ^ ))
Noel, is that a current photo
June 21, 2007 - 18:31 ET by ding7777Noel, is that a current photo of a China Steel Mill? Compare it to smoke pouring into the air from a Pittsburgh steel mill.
Ding
June 21, 2007 - 18:36 ET by Noel SheppardDing,
Interesting. There's actually a lot of ways to view the similarities between pictures. As I've been working on this article for hours and need a break, why don't you tell me your thoughts? ns
I can't see similarities
September 16, 2009 - 08:26 ET by marlenaI can't see similarities between america and china.
Ambien
Noel, I just wondered about
June 21, 2007 - 18:53 ET by ding7777Noel, I just wondered about the photo. Almost like something from the Pearl Harbor movie.
Did anyone notice that the
June 21, 2007 - 19:07 ET by RESTLESS 1Did anyone notice that the Pittsburg photo is form 1890????
RESTLESS 1 - exactly - smoke
June 21, 2007 - 19:22 ET by ding7777RESTLESS 1 - exactly - smoke pollution control has come along way in the past 50 years, that's why I asked about the photo.
btw - Pittsburgh still looked like that into the 1950's.
Thing is, there was no gl
June 21, 2007 - 20:43 ET by GregEThing is, there was no global warming alarmism going on at that time. Pollution was maybe talked about, but nothing like today's earth ending next week global warming touting. Maybe because we did it, China has a 50 year credit to do it before having to tone it down. Stupid thinking, but we are talking mainstream media here.
China not making top news billing means one of two things.......either those touting global warming as a huge threat really don't believe what they preach........or the whole global warming topic is a creation to only slow down the power of the United States by using a topic so vast that it's hard to disprove (or prove) in any short timeframe, if at all............or maybe it's both things all rolled into one nice whacko package.
I don't think it is a quest
June 22, 2007 - 06:46 ET by RESTLESS 1I don't think it is a question of "either -or". I think it is both. Many poeple, including myself, have posted on other threads links that show that climate change is natural, not man-made, not that big of a deal, and that at the very least, is being use to make a select few very wealthy through carbon credits and other nonsense aimed at getting our money into their wallets. We have also seen how some are using this to erode our autonomy and to strenghthen the "one world government" the left so desperately wants.
Exactly restless.What boggles
June 22, 2007 - 10:58 ET by BinxlyExactly restless.
What boggles the mind is that still MANY people sing praises of these carbon offsets but where is the MSM coverage that this is a private company owned partially by Al Gore? Sure, it is the ultimate pay-off, he can funnel funds, dirty or not, into his 'carbon offsets' to make it look like hes concerned about the environment but at the same time that money just goes through the company selling the offsets and right back into lining his pockets. I'm telling you, I've talked to over 20 people who've had NO CLUE Gore was profiting financially off of these carbon offsets and their reactions have been utter disbelief and re-approaching the topic all together with a more 'real' mindset to my crazy lib friends who wanna have Gore's baby *shudder* and basically will play the 'you can't mock a man I believe in! You have proof he's crooked!? NO! it can't be!! La la la la Imnotlistening la la la.'
Seriously, I hate how liberals play this unfair game of misinformation, given, many conservative outlets such as talk radio and Fox News can sometimes give news via rose colored glass, and downplay the bad and left-supporting aspects of news, but NEVER have they been anywhere *near* as bad as liberals. Conservative news presents ALL sides, but then explains why the left side is wrong. Biased? perhaps. Nowhere NEAR as bad as the liberal approach, 'our story, our side, thats the only thing that matters, screw the other side' and simply OMMITING any part of the story that doesn't jibe with their talking points and agenda.
Conservative radio is biased.
June 22, 2007 - 11:15 ET by RESTLESS 1Conservative radio is biased. Ask them and they will tell you. The difference is that Rush, Sean, and the others will ADMIT the fact that they are Conservative. The left just doesn't have the honesty to admit their bias. Maybe they just don't know they are biased, never seeing the other side of issues, but I doubt it.
Btw, I believe I have herd somewhere, maybe here, that Gore has some oil company stocks as well. Does somebody if this is true?
Ding I can assure you however
June 22, 2007 - 10:51 ET by BinxlyDing I can assure you however, as a PA citzen and living so close to, and working in, downtown Pittsburgh I can say our industrial side has cleaned up immensely. There are initiatives in place now to help keep the rivers clean and seeing any smokestack with even a small percentage of that pollution is pretty much impossible as many many steel plants have gone under in the past 30 or so years. There was a time when Ohio and Pennsylvania men could almost *always* guarantee part of their work life would eventually involve the mill, not so much anymore these days.
Shockingly, you found a pictu
June 21, 2007 - 21:33 ET by Roger the ShrubberShockingly, you found a picture of Pittsburgh from 117 years ago, yet lack the ability to find pictures of China polluting the crap out of their air today? Methinks you are either full of crap, or just plain stupid. I'll leave it up to my NB brethren to decide which, because both options could apply.
Dang it Rog...I was trying to
June 21, 2007 - 21:48 ET by bigtimerDang it Rog...
I was trying to ignore ding and his little post that I saw long ago...then I went to the recent comment section..clicked on you post here...and see I get to make a choice now...
YIPEE....
Both options sound good to me.
Thank you.
I feel better.
How about you stop by Denver
June 22, 2007 - 00:24 ET by UnsaneHow about you stop by Denver or Los Angeles and spend about a week in either city...and then travel to Beijing...in 2007???
(I was in Beijing in 2005 and it easily had worse pollution than I had seen in any American city I had lived in.)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
I guess the MSM thinks that
June 21, 2007 - 19:16 ET by JungusI guess the MSM thinks that with Chinese CO2, the earth starts cooling an hour later...
Time out, Noel. At first yo
June 21, 2007 - 19:26 ET by Dave HighTime out, Noel.
At first your position was that global warming was a liberal agenda/conspiracy to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor.
Then, when the evidence of global warming became clear, you: A.) mocked it by citing snowstorms and cold spells during global warming conferences and B.) Attributed global warming to sun conditions, solar flares and other “natural” cycles.
Now that the Bush administration has finally acknowledged that global warming is connected to human CO2 pollution, you choose to blame the media for not faulting China for contributing to the problem.
I know conservatives have a hard time moving forward. It is inherent in the word “conservative.” It is why ya’ll can’t accept the theory of evolution. If the Bible says it’s so, then so it is.
Answer me this, if you please. How do you reconcile your head in the sand and ever shifting desert sands positions?
Regards, Dave High
"And then, sadly, there came a man named George W. Bush." Apocalypse Prescript
Noel:Also, where did you get
June 21, 2007 - 19:52 ET by Dave HighNoel:
Also, where did you get that picture? As an intellectually honest person, please tell me that it is a current polutuion emiter in China. You didn't just grap a photo and put it up, did you?
Regards, Dave High
"Grap" is a neocon
June 21, 2007 - 19:59 ET by Dave High"Grap" is a neocon Bushism found in the 2007 GWB "No Child Left Behind" dictionary. It is a mental fart combining the words "grab" and "crap."
Regards, Dave High
"And then, sadly, there came a man named George W. Bush." ApocalypsePrescript
Well, you managed to move up
June 21, 2007 - 20:05 ET by Roger the ShrubberWell, you managed to move up another slot in the standings with this gem of a post, Dave. I see that current events are not your strong suit. That might explain the 3-5 year-old one-liners you like to throw around.
Here's a Time article for you to read. And a pretty picture from the article. I spent a whole 20 seconds to find that article.
I simply googled "China
June 21, 2007 - 20:23 ET by Kristen ByrnesI simply googled "China Pollution" and found hundreds of pages of pictures. Pretty bad ones too.
Yes, but we've all seen fro
July 11, 2007 - 03:02 ET by sarcasmoYes, but we've all seen from the temperature-station story that you have magic teenage-mutant (well, teenage anyway) hyper-journalism powers, singlehandedly exceeding the combined research forces of an entire hysterical news media. ;) This is Dave we're talkin' about, so the bar is set a bit lower...
JMR
I will accept that they can p
June 21, 2007 - 19:53 ET by nnptcgradI will accept that they can predict global catastrophes in 100 years when they can tell me when it's going to rain next month.
Mother nature is a bitch - Ninth Corollary of Murphy's Law
For being such a "forwar
June 21, 2007 - 19:56 ET by Roger the ShrubberFor being such a "forward-thinker", you sure are having a hard time wrapping that bumper-sticker cliche'-throwing brain around the point of Noel's piece. I once thought you were well-equipped in the brains department, but this last post of yours has really lifted you high in the standings among Newsbuster's less-nimble liberal minds.
You see, you have invoked Roger's First Rule of Liberalism: accuse the Right of doing exactly what the Left is doing. You stereotype Mr. Sheppard as a knuckle-dragging, bible-thumping, mouth-breather, yet your examples of Mr. Sheppard "burying his head in the ever-shifting sands" are actually quite the opposite of the truth. For you worship at the altar of The Church of Global Warming, and that zealotry has made you swallow anything your High Priests dictate, which is exactly what you accuse Mr. Sheppard of with your evolution and "current administration" comments.
Congratulation, Dave. You are what you hate. A religious bigot.
RtS:You are not very good at
June 21, 2007 - 20:09 ET by Dave HighRtS:
You are not very good at conversation. I challenged Noel on an intellectual level, using creative writing techniques, and you responded on his behalf as a storm trooper. I admire your loyalty, but not your ability to see past what is directly in front of you.
Hey, I assume you want to know where Noel got the pollution picture as well. Is it an authentic picture of a current day China power plant, or what?
Regards, Dave High
"And then, sadly, there came a man named George W. Bush." Apocalypse Prescript
The problem is, Dave, is that
June 21, 2007 - 20:18 ET by Roger the ShrubberThe problem is, Dave, is that you have missed the entire point about Global Warming, and Mr. Sheppard can fight his own battles, but I saw the obvious hypocrisy of what you are saying, and thought I explained myself rather clearly in my above (or below) post, but apparently you are too busy trying to be cute and clever, er, I mean, CREATIVE, and not actually reading what people say. I see what's exactly in front of me: socialists like you who was to redistribute my wealth using the farce called man-made Global Warming. Oh, and thank you for invoking Godwin's Law so early in the discussion. You probably could have been more creative than that, couldn't you?
RtS:You strike me as a nasty,
June 21, 2007 - 20:28 ET by Dave HighRtS:
You strike me as a nasty, angry fellow. I am overcoming nast and angry. Shall we do a 12-step together?
Regards, Dave High
Dave H....The pollution pictu
June 21, 2007 - 20:33 ET by bigtimerDave H....
The pollution picture was most likely planted by Rove from an undisclosed location.
Big conspiracy dontcha' know.
Did you even understand the point of the article?
Uh-Oh wait a sec...you only read books that have pictures....like the funny pages, or comics.
Regards,
bigtimer
BT:Your best defense/offense
June 21, 2007 - 20:37 ET by Dave HighBT:
Your best defense/offense is to mock me? Hmmmm. What could that possibly mean?
Regards, Dave High
"And then, sadly, there came a man named George W. Bush." Apocalypse Prescript
Oh puhleeeeeeze Dave H....Hav
June 21, 2007 - 20:44 ET by bigtimerOh puhleeeeeeze Dave H....
Have a sense of humor....
....after-all you and I have been back and forth before.
Btw...I am sure you understood exactly what I meant being as smart as you are.
Bet ya got it right off....
Now lighten up...enjoy life a little....
Regards,
bigtimer
BT
June 21, 2007 - 20:56 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
You are quite correct. I got that photo directly from Karl. He and I go waaaaay back. In fact, I get most of my pictures -- and my ideas -- from him. Isn't it obvious? :-) ns
P.S. Those that actually understand computers, and know how they work, would be able to identify that the picture came from that bastion of conservatism, the online editiion of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. But, keep that between us, okay? I want to keep Dave -- who clearly from the uncharacteristic mistakes in his spelling, punctuation, syntax, grammar, etc., etc., has been drinking more than usual this evening -- guessing on this important and earth-shattering issue of where I got the picture from. After all, as you know, to people on the left who, for the most part, possess a below average ability to comprehend what they read, pictures are MUCH more important than text. So, mum's the word, okay?
LOL...My lips are zipped Noel
June 21, 2007 - 21:01 ET by bigtimerLOL...
My lips are zipped Noel.
You can trust me.
I got that photo directly fro
June 21, 2007 - 21:20 ET by dahliatraversI got that photo directly from Karl.
Cool! Has he shown you the weather machine yet ...?
DT
June 21, 2007 - 21:27 ET by Noel SheppardDT,
Shhhh. Quiet. We're trying to keep this from Dave regardless of how drunk he is. K?
Of course I've seen it. But, that's all I can say now. More later when the coast is clear, and there aren't so many obviously inebriated liberals around. K? ns
Have Karl send in a high pres
June 21, 2007 - 21:28 ET byHave Karl send in a high pressure system to clear up the coast duh
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Botg
June 21, 2007 - 21:32 ET by Noel SheppardB,
Which coast? Out here in Northern California, we're experiencing an extremely mild spring/early summer. The weather has been gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous.
But, don't tell the global warming alarmists. We skeptics want them to remain in the heat, and the dark, as long as possible. K? ns
Which ever one you were refer
June 21, 2007 - 21:35 ET byWhich ever one you were refering to when you told Dahlia, 'more later when the coast is clear'
"the coldest winter i ever spent was a summer in San Francisco" Will Rogers?
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
}}----> Same here Noel
June 21, 2007 - 21:37 ET by Cool ArrowSemi arid West Texas looks like a rainforest.
Keep talking Al. God's laughing.
But.... I thought Al Gore was
June 21, 2007 - 21:38 ET by Roger the ShrubberBut.... I thought Al Gore was God. Mongo brain hurt!
Cool Arrow
June 21, 2007 - 21:46 ET by Noel SheppardCool,
Raining in drought-stricken Florida, too. But, don't tell anybody! It's Karl and my secret. ns
Having an extremely glorious
June 21, 2007 - 21:40 ET by bigtimerHaving an extremely glorious global warming evening here in Big Sky Country too....
Just delicious.
Shhhhh....
It is summer now and we don't want to let on that it is supposed to be this way.
}}----> Secret Summer
June 21, 2007 - 21:47 ET by Cool ArrowThis must be due to the ill wind that blows no good. The gOracle has gone back to his boudoir to read his entrails. I didn't know he had any.
Sigh. Must we send the black
June 21, 2007 - 21:29 ET by Roger the ShrubberSigh. Must we send the black van to Dahlia's house AGAIN?
There is no such thing as a weather machine.
Or time machine.
Honest.
Rog
June 21, 2007 - 21:35 ET by Noel SheppardRog,
Not true. Karl's got both. Actually, one recent weekend at his house, he took me back to see the Eloi. I even got to eat one. Honestly. Tasted just like chicken. ns
Dammit, Noel. I know Karl has
June 21, 2007 - 21:40 ET by Roger the ShrubberDammit, Noel. I know Karl has told us about the dangers of moving AHEAD in time.. Geesh, read the weekly memos once in a while, will ya?
Rog
June 21, 2007 - 21:45 ET by Noel SheppardRog,
Memos? Memos? I don't read no stinkin' memos! :-) ns
Damn, I keep forgetting which
June 21, 2007 - 21:40 ET by dahliatraversDamn, I keep forgetting which topics have been cleared for discussion.
Noel:I want to congratulate y
June 21, 2007 - 21:46 ET by Dave HighNoel:
I want to congratulate you on a nice slap down. I have been submitting far less to this site because slap downs are inevitable. You used to lecture me on my liberal intolerance, but yet I noticed on this last exchange that you ignored all of my key points; specifically your shifting positions on global warming. You instead decided to attack me personally. Whereas I may “stir things up,” I try to avoid personal innuendo.
Please note: as one of the few liberal counterpoints on this site, I enjoy controversy and challenging conservative thinking. If you choose to slap me down personally, as is your tendency, you and your readership will lose me and people like me. As a contributor for some time, this last statement is self evident.
Lighten up and enjoy the controversy.
Regards, Dave High
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 22:00 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
Slap down? Not at all. I slapped you down about as much as you exposed me shifting positions on global warming. I've shifted nothing.
What you've done -- conceivably in your inebriated state, or just out of disingenuity -- is misinterpreted the changes in position by high-ranking Republicans, and assumed -- without being careful of what happens when people do such -- that I changed with them.
Nothing can be further from the truth, though I understand your current confusion.
So, don't consider yourself to have been slapped down. Quite the contrary. I've just been trying to be as entertaining as you, for I don't believe for a second that you really think I've changed my opinion on this issue, as we both know that there's nothing in my posts to suggest so.
Instead, you've been trying to goad me into an argument, as so many of your ilk are inclined to do. Fortunately, I'm in far too good a mood at this moment, and have become so adept at identifying such that I now choose to just have fun with those who are being so obvious with their malicious intentions.
Make sense? ns
"I “... misinterpreted
June 21, 2007 - 22:25 ET by Dave High"
I “... misinterpreted the changes in position by high-ranking Republicans."
Noel: What does this statement actually mean other than you and others of your "ilk" are changing your positions? By-the-by: Please drop the "ilk" reference. It dates you. Just as “by-the-by” dates me.
Peace, Dave High
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 22:56 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
It means exactly as it reads. You've got Newt making some statements that I don't agree with. And, you've got Bush doing the same thing even though I think he came away from G-8 looking like a genius in the way he played everybody.
In the end, both of these "high-ranking" Republicans are doing things for political reasons. However, I've changed nothing. My view on this issue is exactly the same today as it's been for years. It is you that have read THEIR seemingly conflicting views as pertaining to me.
Nothing can be further from the truth.
In the end, Dave, you really haven't paid attention to what I or other skeptics have been saying about this issue from the start. Much like most Americans, you read and hear exclusively what you want, and ignore what goes contrary to your dogma. In fact, you are so adept at this that you are willing to fight a relative stranger at a message board over a disagreement that really doesn't exist.
As such, I suggest you go back through this global warming blog, with most of the posts being mine, and recognize that I have not changed my views on this important subject one iota. ns
Noel:I honor your skepticism.
June 21, 2007 - 23:15 ET by Dave HighNoel:
I honor your skepticism. I am a skeptic as well; just from the opposite point of view. I was a skeptic of the Bush invasion of Iraq from the very beginning. You are a skeptic of global warming. I was clearly correct in my skepticism. Let us hope that you are correct, as well.
Regards, Dave High
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 23:21 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
Actually, my skepticism might prove more correct in the end than yours, as Iraq isn't finished yet, nor is the war on terror. In reality, we might not know which of our skepticisms was better founded for many years nay decades.
So, don't feel so confident that the current condition in Iraq or the Middle East justifies your skepticism, and I won't view one of the coldest springs in recent memory as justifying mine. :-) ns
Dave High
June 21, 2007 - 22:05 ET by RJTranslation: "I should be the only one allowed to post put downs."
Dave High, your whine would hold more water if you hadn't been, from the day you arrived on this site, posting one put down after another.....your complaint is amusing, though.....
Regards,
RJ
RJ
June 21, 2007 - 22:14 ET by Noel SheppardRJ,
Don't you know that the First Amendment declared that liberals are allowed to say whatever disparaging things they want about conservatives, and, in doing so, they're just being good citizens. BUT, if we conservatives don't respond with praise and thanks for the abuse, we're being mean?
It's funny that you posted this, because after I responded, I was thinking the same thing. Dave comes into this discussion with both barrels blazing at me, and when I respond, I'm the bad guy.
It's really enough to drive one to drink, which, of course, I've avowed from the beginning is what precipitated this absurd nonsense from the start. :-) ns
Ah, the old WIARHSI rule
June 21, 2007 - 22:19 ET by RJAh, the old WIARHSI rule.....
(what if a republican had said it)
Regards,
RJ
Noel:Consider it the complime
June 21, 2007 - 22:32 ET by Dave HighNoel:
Consider it the compliment that it is. I enjoy liberal/conservative controversy as I suspect you do. Life would be far more boring without controversy. Have you ever read a really good book with a happy ending? Bono has said it is almost impossible to write a good, happy song. Welcome the intrusion. It makes life more interesting.
Regards, Dave High
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 22:59 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
See, this is what I mean. You really know nothing about people.
For instance, I'm a man. As such, I'm always interested in a happy ending. ns
Noel:I actually got that last
June 21, 2007 - 23:24 ET by Dave HighNoel:
I actually got that last joke. There may be hope for me after all!
Dave
Thanks for an entertaining ev
June 21, 2007 - 23:26 ET by Dave HighThanks for an entertaining evening.
Regards, Dave High
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 23:27 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
See. It's really not me that needs to lighten up. I'm pretty light. :-) ns
I enjoy liberal/conservativ
June 21, 2007 - 23:41 ET by MightyMouthMM must be correct. Imagine that!
I enjoy liberal/conservative controversy as I suspect you do.
A pile of heaping dung as you only respect liberal views and discard conservative views. Evidenced by your posts on NB. Your "happy book" anology is only your lame to attempt to gain acceptance on NB.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Dave High,I want to congratul
June 21, 2007 - 22:05 ET by Dave RDave High,
I want to congratulate you on a nice slap down. I have been submitting far less to this site because slap downs are inevitable.
Actually, the reason I believe you have been contributing less here is because you don't have any more ass left to lose, given the number of times I have seen boots, shoes and even bare feet impacting it here at NB.
You know, Dave, the thing about you that really irritates the hell out of me is your arrogant, condescending tag line. I mean "Regards, Dave High" is just, well, damned rude.
I'd love for you to come to Atlanta sometime. It would be rather interesting to drive you down to the south side (I'm talking near the airport) and dump you in a convenience store parking lot, then wait for a couple of gang-bangers to approach you (should take about 2.3 seconds) and then observe the results when you utter the word "regards."
Of course, I'd probably have to remove the ol' .45 from the glove box to get you out alive, but it would be damned funny, just as well. :-)
"Regards, Dave High"
June 21, 2007 - 22:37 ET by Dave High"Regards, Dave High" is just, well, damned rude."
As a writer, I sign all of my correspondence this way. It is meant to be a gracious salutation. If you find it rude, I am sorry. What would you prefer?
Warmest Regards, Dave High
Well........that Peace thing
June 21, 2007 - 22:48 ET by bigtimerWell....
....that Peace thing will go over well Dave High.....
Peace,
bigtimer
I have been to Atlanta many t
June 21, 2007 - 22:49 ET by Dave HighI have been to Atlanta many times. I feel safe in urban environments. Atlanta has struck me as a city with a lot of "homeless people" issues, though.
Regards, Dave High
Dave High,I was born here for
June 21, 2007 - 23:35 ET by Dave RDave High,
I was born here forty three years ago. I've never lived anywhere else (save six months I was held POW working for an environmental engineering firm in west Birmingham, Ala.) and I have been working mostly in the surveying/engineering business in just about every part of the metro Atlanta area, as well as the eastern US, since I was nine years old (My dad was an RLS, PE-mechanical and civil, as well as a registered landscape architect and licensed pilot).
Trust me, I've been nearly run down a dozen times, had the cops called on me seven or eight times, been shot at twice, not to mention the times I have had a seriously po'd pit bull nipping at my heels and damn near crashed on take-off from a cow pasture in south Georgia when I was eleven years old in a seriosly overloaded Cessna 172. Believe me, I know the places the Atlanta Chamber of Commerce doesn't put in the brochure.
You'd last about two minutes.
How does the saying go?The de
June 22, 2007 - 06:56 ET by Roger the ShrubberHow does the saying go?
The definition of a Conservative is a Liberal that's been mugged, or something like that...
And the definition of a lib
June 22, 2007 - 07:11 ET by sarcasmoAnd the definition of a libertarian is a conservative who's been indicted...
JMR
}}----> And a Liberal
June 22, 2007 - 07:19 ET by Cool ArrowAnd a Liberal is a Conservative who has been downsized
"I want to keep Dave -
June 21, 2007 - 21:46 ET by ckc1227"I want to keep Dave -- who clearly from the uncharacteristic mistakes
in his spelling, punctuation, syntax, grammar, etc., etc., has been
drinking more than usual this evening"
I suspect the culprit is of a more graphic nature: typing one handed. I'll leave it to everyone's imagination to figure out what he's doing with the other hand. Let's just say he gets really *excited* putting us global warming deniers in our place.
"Roger's First Rule of L
June 21, 2007 - 20:14 ET by Dave High"Roger's First Rule of Liberalism: accuse the Right of doing exactly what the Left is doing."
Credit Rush Limbaugh with this one and then credit him again for turning it around. Rush was genious in this and ya'll still live by it. And you know it.
Regards, Dave High
Credit whoever you like, Once
June 21, 2007 - 20:22 ET by Roger the ShrubberCredit whoever you like, Once again, the Lib buzzwords don't work around here. You have to try a little harder, Dave. You are getting lazy. Time to refesh the ole talking points.
Those most vocal about glob
June 21, 2007 - 20:06 ET by JungusThose most vocal about global warming tend to be the same people that want to redistribute wealth from one person (or country) to another. China is an example of this. Burdening the U.S. while giving China a pass will draw us down while not slowing China at all.
Next you say that "when the evidence of global warming became clear ..." well many of us know that global warming happens. The globe can cool down too so A). we like to point out situational irony like anyone else. And B). most of us still point to sunspot activity coinciding with warming / cooling trends. To this last point I ask if you have ever heard of Occam's Razor? It states that when there is too many variables and unknown in an equation, look for the simplest solution and it is likey the right one.
Since sunspot activity matches warming trends I think the case stil stands. However let us take it a step further. If the Earth is warming, is that a bad thing? The answer may not be no. Now a step further, are humans significantly raising the global temperature? It would be hard to argue yes, even with CO2 production, water vapor is far more prevelent and one to one a far more powerful greenhouse gas. Now let's take it one last step further, How many resources (money, materials, and / or human lives) are we willing to spend to "fix" the climate?
As to blaming the media for not faulting China? I think even you can appreciate that it is no fun being held to a double standard. Is it too much to ask for some consistancy?
I don't see you thinking that thru, you simply made a comment about conservatives. Let me give you another one. Conservative were once named that because they wanted to conserve our forests and streams.
I find that your insults are better directed back at yourself.
Conservative were once named
June 21, 2007 - 20:47 ET by general companyConservative were once named that because they wanted to conserve our forests and streams.
And still do. The hunters and fisherman of this country put more funds in to ecology conservation then any other groups combined.
Gore and his merry band of truthers should be on the very first plane to China. Demanding them to stop giving our planet a fever.
And as China's CO2 emissions
June 21, 2007 - 20:07 ET by Kristen ByrnesAnd as China's CO2 emissions keep going up (along with everyone elses) global temperatures keep coming down (before adjusting for burn barrels, BBQ's, air conditioning exhausts, blacktop, concrete, roofing tiles and HHI AKA Hansen Heat Island effect.)
Great point, Kristen. With
June 22, 2007 - 19:24 ET by dahliatraversGreat point, Kristen. With China now the number one emitter of CO2 and accelerating, shouldn't we definitely be seeing global warming effects now and going forward?
Nothing brings out the neo-li
June 21, 2007 - 20:16 ET by mikejNothing brings out the neo-libs like doubting man-made global warming. The uncompassionate unborn baby murders are hilarious in their hateful hypocrisy in that vomitous hate they spew toward anyone that doesn't agree w/them. THE DEBATE IS OVER! Bush is a dictator and needs to be removed from office so progressives can take over and start sending anyone who disagrees with them to gas chambers which will make America better because they know what is best for us and no independent thinking will be tolerated unless St Bill Clinton says so.
mikej:I would like to underst
June 21, 2007 - 20:31 ET by Dave Highmikej:
I would like to understand your thought processes more. NOT!! Yikes!
Regards, Dave High
It's extremely easy to unders
June 22, 2007 - 06:30 ET by UnsaneIt's extremely easy to understand yours:
1) guilt,
2) Socialism,
3) the Nanny State is good and good FOR you,
4) America must be as powerless as possible.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Dave,Where did Noel admit glo
June 22, 2007 - 11:07 ET by BinxlyDave,
Where did Noel admit global warming is tied to CO2 pollution from humans? Also, little FYI, the Bush Administration is doing anything it can to appease the left, color me confused on *any* reason why, although superficial ones are given, but the 'admission' of CO2 guilt you mention isn't that exactly. They believe that human CO2 pollution only 'exemplifies the potential problem' but never came out and endorsed Gore's crazy idea that it is *solely* the fault of humans. Also, Noel is not 'blaming China for global warming.' Frankly I don't think Noel cares much either way if China is over industrialized in its pollution record. his *point* is that for a media that is constantly blaming America for 'global warming caused emissions' he presents the question 'where is the finger pointing at China?' Its a VERY good question.
If you buy into global warming being our fault as humans alone, I cant change your mind, I know the ones who are *sure* of it could be shown proof its a crock and STILL would believe what they do, so I wont even try. THAT said, let's *pretend* it is all our fault. If that's the case, why blame only us? in the Olympics, do they only award second place? Do they scrap the first one to cross the finish line in a race and then celebrate for #2?
Im not saying our environmental policies shouldn't be looked over and improved, we should constantly be mindful of our environment, however, its wrong to only blame one and this case presents an ever BETTER case that indeed the media and nations abroad want to Stifle America as the world leader because no one wants to believe that reliance on a government to work for you is less effective than being responsible for yourself.
Noel is not the only one who
June 22, 2007 - 11:25 ET by RESTLESS 1Noel is not the only one who attributes global warming to "sun conditions,solar flares and other "natural" cycles."
Another article that shows th
June 22, 2007 - 12:47 ET by RESTLESS 1Another article that shows the folly of global warming.
I guess humans are causing th
June 22, 2007 - 12:55 ET by RESTLESS 1I guess humans are causing this.
And this.
June 22, 2007 - 12:56 ET by RESTLESS 1And this.
And this.(Sorry for the multi
June 22, 2007 - 12:58 ET by RESTLESS 1And this.
(Sorry for the multiple posts. I am at work and have access to only one browser).
Noel
June 21, 2007 - 21:21 ET by Dave RIt appears that television news divisions only feel CO2 is a problem if it’s emitted by American corporations or citizens.
Noel,
Please forgive the pedestrian simplicity of this comment, as I am having a difficult week, but as I said:
_______________________
Dave R Says:June 19, 2007 - 16:29
The MSM won't cover it because, as we all know, the only bad pollution on this planet is Amurrican pollution.
_______________________
Of course, this is just further evidence (as if we needed any) that the real target of the GW advocates is the free-enterprise system of the United States of America. "Pollution" caused by others is of no consequence. In fact, the more totalitarian their governments are, the better.
I mean, what alternative conclusion is there?
BTW-Please don't confuse me with the other Dave on this thread. I may be a little nuts, but I swear I'm not high! :-)
Dave
June 21, 2007 - 21:29 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
Sure. Care to go through a pupil check to prove it? Hmmmmmm? :-) ns
Noel,LOL-Only if High goes fi
June 21, 2007 - 21:43 ET by Dave RNoel,
LOL-Only if High goes first.
Psst-I will, however, shamesly admit I am now well into my second glass of The Macallan. :-)
Did you just call someone a m
June 21, 2007 - 21:45 ET by dahliatraversDid you just call someone a macaca?!
Hey...Pass the macaca...Share
June 21, 2007 - 21:49 ET by bigtimerHey...
Pass the macaca...
Share Dave!
bt & dahlia,LOL-I'd love
June 21, 2007 - 22:22 ET by Dave Rbt & dahlia,
LOL-I'd love to, but I am now down to the final draw of that truly remarkable and most excellent single-malt Scottish concoction that I recieved for my birthday back in March.
Should I be so fortunate as to cross paths with another, you two will be the first people I call.
I promise, Scouts-honor, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye.....
Now Dave...Liar Liar Pants On
June 21, 2007 - 22:26 ET by bigtimerNow Dave...
Liar Liar Pants On Fire!
Even I know better than that...
.....but it is the thought that counts....
Right?
LOL!
bt,LMAO-Would you please be s
June 21, 2007 - 22:30 ET by Dave Rbt,
LMAO-Would you please be so kind as to pass the fire extinguisher?
No can do Dave...Those wonder
June 21, 2007 - 22:37 ET by bigtimerNo can do Dave...
Those wonderful wise Senators are cramming the useless fiasco of a joke called an Energy Bill down our throats...they just had a trial run, it passed, so will this final one now they are taking...
...after-all it is a Thursday night and they want to go home per usual....
They cannot work more than three days a week, it is rare when they do.
Their importance is sickeningly despicable.
People ought to be forced to watch what these people do to us in these chambers, if they were, this country would never be in the mess it is now...people would know exactly who to vote for and why and who not to and why.
I am just disgusted....nothing new...it isn't going to wreck this great gorgeous global warming evening I am having here...
No sireeeeee....
bt,I know what you mean. The
June 21, 2007 - 23:07 ET by Dave Rbt,
I know what you mean. The energy bill is almost as comical as the scamnesty bill. We went the CAFE route in the '70's. Damn near destroyed the US automotive industry in the process (Thanks Jimmuh, Joan & Raaaaaaalph.)
52 mpg in twelve years? Gimme a break. I'm no physicist, but I have enough of a technical background to know that a gallon of gasoline only has a finite amount of energy. Sure, they can build vehicles right now that get 70, 80 or 90 mpg, but, if you ever get hit in one, they are most likely going to burry you in the thing. Wonder if the feds will move to absolve any liability on the part of the carmakers? Not gonna happen.
I've been busy participating in a virtual rally here in Atlanta tonight against the scamnesty bill by flooding our two senator's offices with emails every 0.5 hours. I expect the FIBBIES to show up any moment.
And don't even get me started on John Podesta and the anti-free-speech movement.
Perilous times ahead, I'd say.
Jimmy Carter also stopped ANW
June 21, 2007 - 23:21 ET by bigtimerJimmy Carter also stopped ANWR...(long ago)
Long story...I have or had links I have posted here before...
Nevertheless, there was not one REAL thing in the Bill that can be done now or in the near future for our self-dependence here within on our own resources...such as oil or coal, NUKELAR ect...blah blah blah....
Nothing new here as they all pat each other on the back, plus I heard Conrad earlier on the floor infer that they would still get the tax bill that the repub's defeated back into the Bill...by hook or crook...
We shall see.
Gettin' late....feels like a Friday to me....got to get out of here and wrap up a few chores for the evening...
Catch you later...
Have a good one.
Btw....Keep up the good work on the illegal immigration Bill they are getting to next week to attempt to cram down our throats...I am saving my energy for that now.
G'night, bt.And that for the
June 21, 2007 - 23:40 ET by Dave RG'night, bt.
And that for the rest of you, as well.
(Yawn)
June 21, 2007 - 23:47 ET by Free Stinker(Yawn)
pass the fire extinguisherTha
June 22, 2007 - 19:27 ET by dahliatraverspass the fire extinguisher
That had better not be a CO2 extinguisher!
I know. We can all switch t
June 21, 2007 - 21:27 ET by dahliatraversI know. We can all switch to wood burning generators.
http://er.bsysmail.com/go.asp?/.pages.070607.oneplanet/bBBC001/xYNF011
}}----> Day after tomorrow
June 21, 2007 - 21:51 ET by Cool Arrowwe're obviously in denial. I know New York is frozen solid by now and we're ready to thank the Mexican Government for taking us in when we were in need.
Noel,You quoted the NY Slimes
June 21, 2007 - 22:43 ET by Marc SheppardNoel,
You quoted the NY Slimes statement that:
This is, of course, typical alarmist bravo sierra. While the ridiculously biased IPCC lists CO2 as having the greatest radiative forcing impact of the AGHGs, the most abundant GHG in the atmosphere – by far -- is naturally occurring water vapor.
In fact, CO2’s atmospheric presence is so miniscule that the thought of its abatement decreasing global temperatures is downright hysterical. Of course, this doesn’t prevent the dissemination of this disinformation by the enviro-mental-cases.
In an unprecedented example of the pathology of this madness, SCOTUS Justice John Paul Stevens himself declared CO2 to be the “most important species” of greenhouse gases when writing his recent absurd opinion to brand CO2 as a pollutant.
On this great day of Sol’s summer solstice, the hype-machine grinds on.
There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the actions of mankind can impact global temperatures even a single degree Celsius in either direction. Fight the hype.
Marc
June 21, 2007 - 23:13 ET by Noel SheppardMarc,
As you know, it's hard enough writing about and debating this issue without having to regularly correct all of the scientific misstatements made by the press on this subject. Imagine actually trying to convince the masses that water vapor is the most abundant GHG. Never gonna happen.
As such, the problem with media analysis on this subject is the need to pick battles. For instance, in this case, the NYT writer could claim that CO2 is the major GHG because it is indeed the one that receives the most focus by the IPCC, Gore, and other alarmists. As a result, in their view, it is the major GHG. How can you argue with that?
In the end, the alarmists have done such a fabulous job of making CO2 the culprit, the overwhelming majority of Americans agree. That's what makes this the perfect issue for the left, as it is extremely easy to make total falsehoods accepted facts.
How do we combat this? How do we convince people that one plus one does indeed equal two when they're being told by the media and the politicians they revere that the answer is three? Seems almost impossible.
This is why so many skeptical scientists that I correspond with on a daily basis are so frustrated. Don't you find the same condition with the scientists you're in contact with? ns
Why Noel, you just inspired
June 22, 2007 - 08:42 ET by dscottWhy Noel, you just inspired me with a rather sinister idea. Since water vapor is the predominate GHG in the atmosphere, I propose we set up moisture farms or evaporators to pull water out of the air, in so dropping the Relative Humidity we could drop the heat content of the air. As you may or may not know most of the heat (energy) contained in the air is not senible heat as measured by the thermometer, most of the heat is "latent" heat stored in the water molecules suspended in the air. This drying of the air would plunge the world into a new ice age. Muhuhahaha...
If you ever have seen water dripping from an air conditioner, what you are seeing is the moisture that has been pulled out of the air which is the reason why air conditioners are designed to chill the air down to 55F to condense out the humidity. A room at 78F and 80% RH feels much hotter than 78F at 20%, which btw most people would feel very comfortable at.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Noel, Actually, I read Steve
June 22, 2007 - 10:17 ET by Marc SheppardNoel,
Actually, I read Steve's response prior to yours, but I think my reply to him covers most of your questions as well, except the last one. To this I react with an emphatic yes.
There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the actions of mankind can impact global temperatures even a single degree Celsius in either direction. Fight the hype.
Marc,It is certainly true t
June 21, 2007 - 23:46 ET by steve2007Marc,
It is certainly true that water vapor is by far the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. However, this does not mean that one can simply dismiss the possibility that carbon dioxide has any effect on global temperature so quickly. Carbon dioxide's role should be investigated from a more quantitative perspective. This is what scientists have done, and they have determined that human-caused increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide can indeed have an effect on temperature.
Allow me to illustrate this using some crude estimations. The numbers I am using have all been quoted by posters on NB. First, carbon dioxide levels have risen from about 280 ppm at the beginning of the industrial revolution to 380 ppm today. Also, 280 ppm is about as high as carbon dioxide levels ever got over warm/cold cycles during the past half million years. So it can be argued that humans have raised carbon dioxide levels by about 35%.
Now, the greenhouse effect is the process whereby infrared radiation is emitted from the Earth's surface, absorbed by greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, and re-emitted, partly back down to Earth, and partly to space. This extra radiation that hits Earth's surface raises its temperature. The atmosphere heats the Earth in this manner by about 33C. Now, to address your point about the water vapor, let us suppose that the contribution to this effect by carbon dioxide is only 5% of the total. Then, if humans have increased carbon dioxide levels by about 35%, the increase in greenhouse gas levels is 0.05*0.35 ~ 2%.
Finally, although the system is non-linear and much more complicated, we can make a very crude calculation, and say that a 2% increase in greenhouse gases would lead to a corresponding increase in the amount by which the greenhouse effect heats the Earth, or roughly 0.02*33C ~ 1C. If on the other hand, we were to double carbon dioxide levels from pre-industrial levels, we would see a roughly 2C increase.
Despite the roughness of these estimations, the results are pretty close to the numbers reported as predictions from climate scientists. The point, however, is that one cannot simply rule out the possibility of carbon dioxide playing a role in heating the planet out of sheer incredulity when making comparisons to the role of water vapor.
Steve
June 22, 2007 - 00:29 ET by Noel SheppardSteve,
With all due respect, would you please do some more research on this subject before you continue to make ridiculous statements like "280 ppm is about as high as carbon dioxide levels ever got over warm/cold cycles during the past half million years?"
For instance, try Ernst Beck's study from 2006:
Honestly, there's miles of information available out there for folks on this subject if they're interested in learning more than what Al Gore tells them. You should try it. :-) ns
Noel,With all due respect t
June 22, 2007 - 01:25 ET by steve2007Noel,
With all due respect to you, this paper stands among a very few that draw this sort of conclusion about carbon dioxide levels. Indeed, I have a few issues with it:
1. Look at the plot on page 4. The plot shows Beck's determination of carbon dioxide levels from 1812 to 2004. Until 1961, he uses one set of measurements, and after 1961 he uses data from the Mauna Loa Observatory. Notice that the data before 1961 is full of wild fluctuations, but the data afterwards is very smooth. The set of measurements before 1961 surely carries on past 1961, so why does Beck not compare those measurements to the Mauna Loa ones? If the data before was good, then it should match the Mauna Loa data, yet no comparison was made. Surely it does not seem natural for fluctuations in carbon dioxide levels to disappear when we switch to a new means of measurement, but this is what Beck seems to be proposing.
2. The wild fluctuations before 1961 could be accounted for by local effects, such as making measurements near cars, or forests. It is a challenge to account for such effects, and that is why his plot is not reliable.
3. Each yearly data point on that plot was produced from hundreds of measurements, yet there is no indication of the standard deviation of these measurements. Were they consistent at all with each other? A scientific paper should address this sort of question. In fact, there is no statistical analysis of any errors present at all.
4. The article was published in Energy and Environment, a journal which is not very well respected. In fact, this journal is not even listed in the Thompson Scientific Journal Citation Reports (http://scientific.thomson.com/products/jcr/). The editor of this journal, Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, is quoted as saying "I'm following my political agenda -- a bit, anyway, but isn't that the right of the editor?" in
http://w3g.gkss.de/G/Mitarbeiter/storch/CR-problem/Chronicle%20of%20Higher%20Education.030904.pdf
A scientific journal should not have have politically-based editorial standards.
5. The article is very poorly written and formatted. It does not look presentable to a scientific audience.
Al Gore did not tell me any of what I just told you. I did my own research.
Amazing. Because the articl
June 22, 2007 - 06:40 ET by UnsaneAmazing. Because the article is, in your opinion, poorly written and formatted, and in your opinion is not presentable to a scientific audience, why, we MUST bend over and drive America to complete penury in order to assuage your personal guilt.
Also, just because this article is published in a journal that YOU say is "not well respected" does not reduce its validity. But thank you for showing why Copernicus and Kepler had such a rough time of it over the heliocentric theory. I can only imagine what you global warming religionists would do to poor Kepler back in the day...
Anyways, maybe you can answer these questions all on your own:
1) If the Kyoto Protocol addresses a GLOBAL problem called GLOBAL warming, why are China, Mexico, and India, among other countries, exempt from it?
9) Why was I chipping ice off of my truck here in south TX in January 2007? I've been hearing about this global warming thing for 20 years now and, well, if it is happening, well, it has had 20 years to take effect...right?
"Why can't I ask any questions if what you say is true? Am I supposed to believe everything or just everything said by you?" - Suicidal Tendencies,
"Pledge Your Allegiance"
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
2) Why does the Kyoto Protocol not address, at all the issue of tropical deforestation, which is the cause of 20% of global greenhouse emissions?
3) Why no major Atlantic hurricanes this year?
4) How come the world's highest recorded temperature was recorded in 1922?
5) Why did it snow south and east of San Antonio for Christmas 2004? San Antonio RARELY if EVER gets snow.
6) Why did it snow in Lisbon and New Delhi in the winter of 2005-2006? Why did it snow in Johannesburg in July 2006 during the austral winter?
7) Exit Glacier has been melting since at least 1780. What human activity back then was causing the glacier to melt?
8) Explain the appearance of icebergs in the Chukchi Sea and the Beaufort Sea in the Barrow area at the end of July 2004.
unsane -- I'm amazed you co
June 22, 2007 - 08:04 ET by Jack Bauerunsane -- I'm amazed you could be bothered to waste time on this supercilious bore..
Just as an aside -- President Clinton declined to send the Kyoto treaty to the Senate for ratification after the Seante made clear by a vote of 97 to zero that they would not ratify it.
Maybe Bush should actually send it up tomorrow, I'd love to hear the Democrats explain why they were not voting for such a "progressive" move..
Unsane,You failed to addres
June 22, 2007 - 10:17 ET by steve2007Unsane,
You failed to address any of my specific complaints with that article. Instead, you argued with me by complaining about the political approach being implemented to solve global warming issues, and by listing a bunch of weather anomalies that you think debunk the theory of global warming. I would prefer if people challenged the points I was actually making. Why, for instance, does Beck not compare the pre-1961 type measurements with the Mauna Loa observatory, despite the fact that the older measurement technique surely continued past 1961.
To address the general theme of your post, let us consider just one of your points, say, the one about the snow on Christmas in San Antonio. Global warming does not say that you will never have cold days anymore. It says that the average temperature will increase slightly. Do you understand the difference between these two notions? You can still have fluctuations about the average temperature, even if it goes up, so you can still have cold days. So the theory says nothing about the possibility of having snow on Christmas in San Antonio. Your argument cannot be considered a valid blow against global warming theory.
Oh, but my argument CAN be co
June 22, 2007 - 16:07 ET by UnsaneOh, but my argument CAN be considered a valid blow against your dogma. If the average temperature is rising, it only stands to reason that I there will be a point when I am NOT chipping quarter-inch thick portions of ice from my truck in January in southern TX because such occurrences will become rarer. The odds against that increase in a warmer environment. Now, I am no math major by any means, but I can at least conceptualize that idea.
"I would prefer if people challenged the points I was actually making." Sorry, Steve...well, no, not really, but 1) as I actually participate in this economy and make it run so ingrates like you can suck the tit of capitalism while whining all the while about how wrong and evil it is, I lack the necessary time to dissect the specifics of numbers, 2) you are dreaming if you think that politics can be divorced from this issue, and 3) you fail to understand, or perhaps are willfully and intentionally wanting to fail to understand that this subject is nothing new, and has been getting talked about for the past 20 years, and thus, the effects of global warming should be getting felt by now. This means fewer days of cold (not an elimination thereof as you falsely say I was implying) and fewer cold weather phenomena in regions of the world where they are already uncommon.
Now, instead of whining about how I haven't stopped earth's rotation to dissect the very specifics of your questions, why not take a crack at mine? I love about how you guilt-ridden ones HATE answering them,
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
No, Unsane. Your argument
June 23, 2007 - 02:36 ET by steve2007No, Unsane. Your argument still does not work. In fact, if anything, you have inadvertently provided evidence which is consistent with the predictions of global warming.
Think of what happens if you, say, pound a metal rod into the ground with a hammer. Each time you hit it, it moves a bit farther into the ground, and it resonates for a while before stopping. Essentially the same thing happens with global warming: replace the hammer with excess infrared radiation caused by the greenhouse effect, and the rod with surface temperature. When a rapid change in temperature comes about, there is bound to be a great deal of fluctuations, or more severe weather, that also occurs. Scientists have been saying this too -- it's not just me.
Also, the temperature increase has been less than a degree celsius so far, but is espected to be higher in the future. If fluctuations about the mean temperature were to stay the same as before, there would not really be a noticeable difference in the frequency of cold winter days in San Antonio. You will still break records, both cold and hot.
No, steve2007, don't expect m
June 23, 2007 - 22:37 ET by UnsaneNo, steve2007, don't expect me bend over and take it in the shorts from you because you think your word is The Holy Writ. You may answer my questions now, or run away like a coward and demonstrate to us once and for all that you are as intellectually dishonest as any other GW religionist who is enraged because I refuse to share in your guilt.
If my questions inadvertently prove GW, then perhaps you want to explain what has been causing Exit Glacier to melt since 1780. It has been melting since at least that time, as is the case with Mendenhall Glaciers, among others. What industrial activity was occurring then to cause the glaciers to melt, huh?
"Also, the temperature increase has been less than a degree so far,but is expected to be higher in the future." If only I could have as much blind faith in predictions as you do. Didn't Paul Ehrlich predict global famine by this time? (Didn't happen because he failed to anticipate the Green Revolution and ever improving farming techniques). People a quarter-century ago were predicting total gloom and doom in regards to world water supplies (hasn't come to pass) and the "population explosion" which has thus far been a population BUST. So forgive me if I don't feel the burning urge to force the United States into a Fourth World existence because a "prediction" is causing you to wallow in guilt.
Besides, you have already shown your hand - you could care less about the "science". You are a control-freak (h/t sarcasmo) Socialist who wants everyone to be just as miserable and guilt ridden as you are.
"Scientists have been saying this too - it's not just me." Scientists also assumed the Cassini Division contained nothing until some brave souls suggested otherwise and prevented NASA from "threading" Pioneer 11 through it. Scientists also thought that microorganisms on the moon could cause worldwide pandemics. A scientist once specualted that the detonation of the atomic bomb would ignite the nitrogen in the atmosphere. Scientists also thought that you could put perfectly square windows on aircraft, until some Comets broke apart mid-flight. Scientists also believed that the world was flat - never mind the tops of masts of ships beign the last to disappear on the horizon and lunar eclipses demonstrating the earth's round shadow. Scientists even thought that the sun revolved around the earth - and that, to explain the planets' "apparent retrograde motion", they constructed things called "epicycles", until Copernicus, Kepler, and eventually Newton showed them wrong. I know that it upsets and infuriates you that anyone would DARE question your precious dogma - but those scientists have been wrong before and could well be wrong again. Don't expect me to want to destroy the economy as you do, on their whim, just because.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
temperature ... is expected
June 24, 2007 - 09:21 ET by dahliatraverstemperature ... is expected to be higher in the future
Yeah ... James Hansen started promising us that 25+ years ago. "Just give me ten more years ..."
We agree that the global warming situation should be monitored. We just don't think it would be responsible to implement the proposed draconian measures in view of the problems with data collection and computer models, the lack of detailed data prior to 1880 and the fact that (ahem) all the predictions made by AGW's main prophet about temperature trends have proven wrong.
http://newsbusters.org/node/13114
Temperatures have been trendi
June 25, 2007 - 21:43 ET by MikeBTemperatures have been trending upward since the end of the last ice age. The Maunder Minimum was a lengthy aberration to the trend. Eventually this upward trend will reverse and we will enter either another Little Ice Age, or a for real ice age.
The only constant in climate is change. It has always fluctuated, and it always will, until the heat death of the universe.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Another thing I just notice
June 22, 2007 - 01:37 ET by steve2007Another thing I just noticed: Beck's plot is included here and labelled as "raw data". This is clearly false. He claims elsewhere that each point on the plot represents many data points, so a set of raw data must include all of these.
I did manage to find some raw data and did a quick analysis of my own. I looked at one column from 1943. The 35 data points have a range from 300 ppm to 710 ppm, with a mean of 435 ppm and standard deviation of 80 ppm. This is not very good at all, but kind of what I was expecting. The 1-3% error he quotes on the plot itself seems to be referring to the error in making each particular measurement, but he makes no mention of the statistical fluctuation between the measurements, which is apparently huge.
He also shows daily variations in measurements between 340 and 490 ppm. This, along with the above, suggests very strong local effects; systematic errors which must be properly accounted for. Beck seems to have no understanding of error analysis, and no real scientific journal would have published this.
By the way, links to this supplementary information are found here.
Steve,I’m short on time, so
June 22, 2007 - 09:43 ET by Marc SheppardSteve,
I’m short on time, so rather than challenging your numbers and somewhat arbitrary supposition of CO2’s contribution to GHE (which I do), let’s approach this from an angle more in tune with the thread topic – the hyping of the eco-maniacs’ “Mankind stinks and Americans stink the most” mantra and promotion of their essentially socialist orthodoxy.
You see, while non-anthropogenic (NA) theories (Solar, cosmic, volcanic, etc) are given short play, ANYTHING which promotes the misdeeds of homo sapiens is quickly rushed to the headlines -- despite the fact that solar fluctuations throughout retrievable history (observed as sunspots, auroras, etc) clearly sympathize with available climate proxies. Meanwhile, completely hypothetical CO2 offerings are readily accepted as far less suspect, and those arguing the cause and effect order (oceans warmed by NA forces produce more CO2, rather than the other way around) are branded as shills to big oil by double-digit-IQ media whores.
Why all the hype about CO2? The question answers itself – it’s by far the easiest GHG to pin on capitalists and, consequently, to control them through knee-jerk legislation and liberal guilt..
In your response to Noel, you questioned the methods and honesty of Ernst Beck. While I have neither the time nor the disk space to refute both your reasoning and your assertion that his work “stands among a very few that draw this sort of conclusion about carbon dioxide levels” (which is as ludicrous as stating that the “science is settled,” another lefty propaganda lie), I must admit that this line was quite a howler, coming from someone who has obviously bought the hype hook line and sinker:
In fact, there is nothing about the AGW argument that is NOT politically-based. From a scientific standpoint it rivals Astrology, UFOs and Elvis sightings – the facts are emotionally skewed by agenda-driven charlatans and their pocket-book zombies to prove the postulate to the marching morons who are eager to accept it.
I’ll leave you with a great quote from another scientist you’ll no doubt also pillory:
Well said, S. Fred.
Gotta jump.
There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the actions of mankind can impact global temperatures even a single degree Celsius in either direction. Fight the hype.
Marc,"rather than chal
June 22, 2007 - 10:07 ET by steve2007Marc,
"rather than challenging your numbers and somewhat arbitrary supposition of CO2’s contribution to GHE (which I do), let’s approach this from an angle more in tune with the thread topic – the hyping of the eco-maniacs’ “Mankind stinks and Americans stink the most” mantra and promotion of their essentially socialist orthodoxy."
That's no fun! I would much rather you attacked me on what I actually said.
Oh come now Steve, the CO2 ch
June 22, 2007 - 10:37 ET by dscottOh come now Steve, the CO2 chart has already been debunked like Mann's infamous hockey stick, give it up.
The CO2 chart was created by the same flawed methodology as the Mann's hockey stick temp chart, mixing and matching incompatible data sets with different rates of accuracy. Let me put this in layman's terms, when you take ice core samples (let's ignore the issues with those core samples) from the Arctic at sea level plot them on a graph you can not overlay air samples taken at 16,000 ft from the top of a volcano (a CO2 emitter, btw) with an 80 year gap between and then claim to have a scientifically accurate graph depicting CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere! End of Story.
Why pray tell are not CO2 readings taken in the Arctic where the cores were taken, why are they mixing samples from two different sites and elevations? FYI, just as temperatures are different on two different parts of the globe, so are CO2 readings!!!!!!!
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius