Brian Fitzpatrick of our Culture and Media Institute passes along the latest nugget of wisdom from CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin (also of The New Yorker magazine), on the Supreme Court and partial birth abortion:
Most notoriously, the Court, for the first time in its history, upheld a categorical ban on an abortion procedure. The case dealt with so-called partial-birth abortion—a procedure performed rarely, often when there are extraordinary risks to the mother, the fetus, or both.
Writes Brian, as he nominates this for stupidest quote of the year: "Oh, sure. As if an abortionist takes risks to the fetus into account!" What genius from the Harvard man (B.A. 1982, J.D., 1986)!
Via Google: Toobin says fetus a lot.
Toobin was once the fetus of CBS News anchor Marlene Sanders.
PS: Perhaps Toobin feels some kinship with Melinda Beck across the decades:
"Sadly, many home remedies could damage a fetus instead of kill it."
-- Newsweek Senior Editor Melinda Beck on pregnancy remedies, July 17, 1989 issue.
Comments Policy
The mind just stands still, s
June 19, 2007 - 09:30 ET by HelenSThe mind just stands still, slack-jawed, at such stupendously abyssmal stupidity. If Mr. Al Neuharth wants to discuss stupidity, he's an idiot for passing up this opportunity.
I really can't believe it...I tried, really I did.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
Come on, now, I'm sure ther
June 19, 2007 - 11:03 ET by ckc1227Come on, now, I'm sure there are perfectly good reasons for having a late-term abortion. In Kansas, for example, you can have one done because being pregnant keeps you from going to the rodeo.
I guess if someone's life is
June 19, 2007 - 09:35 ET by HelenSI guess if someone's life is at risk, the best thing to do is suck their brain out through the top of their head.
...I'm still trying to comprehend this...
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
Good observation Helen
June 19, 2007 - 09:40 ET by Cool ArrowOr as Monty Python would say: I love animals, that's why I kill them.
They are slaves who dare not be In the right with two or three
Helen,Your obvious care conce
June 19, 2007 - 10:03 ET by LeonHelen,
Your obvious care concerning human life (i.e. pro-life abortion stance) implicit in your post is sort of at odds with your tag line. What with war being anti-life and all.
It reminds me of Joker's helmet in Full Metal Jacket. Peace button right next to "Born To Kill".
Yeah, I'm so conflicted. Wi
June 19, 2007 - 10:07 ET by HelenSYeah, I'm so conflicted. Wipe out terrorist skum...? Kill unborn babies...? It's SO the same thing!
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
get a grip
June 19, 2007 - 10:53 ET by LionKingIf it helps, try thinking of the WOT as us aborting terrorists. [paraphrase from Dennis Miller]
Seriously, Leon, this (il)logic is even beneath you. Abortion and war are at totalling different ends of the spectrum. War is for the presevation of rights; abortion is about the loss of rights (for the baby).
I don't think this illogic is
June 19, 2007 - 12:25 ET by mattmI don't think this illogic is beneath Leon. It exemplifies him, and his Lefty cohorts. This shows why they're wrong on every issue - they can't think straight.
Leon has plenty more where th
June 19, 2007 - 12:49 ET by TruthMongerLeon has plenty more where that came from...
Helen - I think I love you...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
TM, between you and Mighty Mo
June 19, 2007 - 13:00 ET by Airforce_5_OTM, between you and Mighty Mouth the rest of us have no chance.
Airforce old buddy, Helen cou
June 19, 2007 - 13:40 ET by TruthMongerAirforce old buddy, Helen could really cause some problems around here - if the city of Troy is any indication anyway...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Sadly I have no Trojon Horse.
June 19, 2007 - 13:44 ET by Airforce_5_OSadly I have no Trojon Horse.
You can pick some up at any
June 19, 2007 - 13:51 ET by TruthMongerYou can pick some up at any drug store!
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
HORSE TM! Trojon Horse! I
June 19, 2007 - 14:03 ET by Airforce_5_OHORSE TM! Trojon Horse! I'm a married man I don't need those.
AF I'm married too but pleas
June 19, 2007 - 14:07 ET by TruthMongerAF I'm married too but please do not hijack this thread and take us off the condom topic - stay focused now...ever try ribbed at all:)?
Just between you and me, now...your secret is quite safe...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
War is not anti life. War i
June 19, 2007 - 10:18 ET by Dan The Man 2War is not anti life. War is trying to protect one life sometimes at the expense of others who are trying to snuff it out. War is not pretty but sometimes needed. The problem with your analogy is that the baby has done nothing to warant the snuffing out of his life.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.
"Your obvious care conce
June 19, 2007 - 10:20 ET by QueenMum"Your obvious care concerning human life (i.e. pro-life abortion stance) implicit in your post is sort of at odds with your tag line."
Leon: This is indeed a conundrum that many Christians struggle with - myself included. Are we to confront evil and destroy it ourselves? Or is it more important to consider the human being who is doing the evil? It's usually presented as "an innocent life" vs. "an evil life" choice. I personally am opposed to capital punishment of criminals on the basis of being pro-life. So that puts me into the category of those who should also believe that there is no justification for killing an enemy in war. But for some reason, I can't quite equate the two.
But I see that my comment may well put this thread into the realm of religious debate. So, I'll withdraw now.
We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. - Queen Victoria
The US military goes out of t
June 19, 2007 - 12:51 ET by TruthMongerThe US military goes out of their way, putting themselves at extra risk, not to kill people...
Leon I can implicity translate for you: "blahblahblahblahblah"
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
God bless you!
June 19, 2007 - 12:55 ET by florida_chadGod bless you!
u2
June 19, 2007 - 13:25 ET by TruthMongeru2
TM,as usual you are off topic
June 19, 2007 - 13:53 ET by LeonTM,
as usual you are off topic. Stay specific my good man.
War leads to death. I never said anything about a specific country, a specific war, or a specific cause for war. Simply stated war = death.
I'm not sure what the US putting themselves at extra risk not to kill people has to do with anything.
Oh Leon you never cease to en
June 19, 2007 - 14:01 ET by TruthMongerOh Leon you never cease to entertain...
I guess my mistake was that your post was about pro-lifers hypocritically supporting war because it kills people. Then, like a doofus, my post was about war not really being about killing people, but rather about resolving disagreements by force, and people are inadvertantly killed in the process, kinda like how driving is not about killing people either, but thousands are inadvertantly killed in the process, whereas abortion is definitely about killing someone, it does not "inadvertantly" happen during the violent sucking out process and disgardment into the trash bin with the doctors half-eaten shrimp salad sandwich and new Ferrari brochure...so yes clearly I was wrong...dumb, dumb, dumb...
So I am sorry for going completely off topic on this...I'm so lame...please be patient with me...don't abort me old friend...I want to live...LIVE DO YOU HEAR!!!
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Wrong TM. Assumption makes
June 19, 2007 - 14:10 ET by LeonWrong TM. Assumption makes a what out of you and me?
I was specifically speaking to Helen but naturally you got immediately defensive without actually understanding my post and assumed I was charging pro-lifers with being hypocritical for being pro-war.
NOT THE CASE AT ALL.
I know reading comprehension is not at a premium on this site, but it's so annoying when you all expand the meaning of posts so that you can retort.
I was simply saying it was hilarious that in her post Helen was talking about being pro-life and then her tag line is a war cry. It's funny to me. Reminded me of the full metal jacket scene.
Irony
June 19, 2007 - 14:18 ET by RJFunny that Leon would say that "reading comprehension is not at a premium on this site, when he was, apparently, the only one who did not understand the headline that began the thread....and had to have it explained. ;^>
Leon we all seem to have a pr
June 19, 2007 - 14:21 ET by TruthMongerLeon we all seem to have a problem with this except you. Show us the way old buddy!
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
I know. Trust me I'm trying
June 19, 2007 - 14:28 ET by LeonI know. Trust me I'm trying my hardest to get my simple post across. (Keep in mind that Queen - one of the most rational posters on this site got what I was saying)
As for RJ, still bitter about my dismantling of your weak attack on yesterday's open thread? It's ok buddy the sun'll come up tomorrow.
You are correct, I did misread the quote, which I noted immediately, and admitted my mistake. You should look into doing the same sometime. Humility can be a wonderful thing.
Yet another chestnut of wisdo
June 19, 2007 - 14:31 ET by TruthMongerYet another chestnut of wisdom - please do keep them coming ,my friend...I am learning so much!
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Ah, Leon, you're so easy.
June 19, 2007 - 14:32 ET by RJ"Misread the quote?" hahahaha!
Ah, Leon, you're so easy and so thin-skinned.... ;^>
Queen:Great post, but you got
June 19, 2007 - 13:56 ET by LeonQueen:
Great post, but you got much more in depth than I was even thinking. I was referring to war in general. War leads to death, so I find it funny that somebody that is so strongly pro-life would also be strongly pro-war.
Typical bogus liberal "r
June 19, 2007 - 10:46 ET by mattmTypical bogus liberal "reasoning" - equating the murder of defenseless infants with war. What kind of mental disorder can make you Lefties think this way?
The real contradiction is from YOU Leftists who think it's O.K. to kill babies, but not to kill terrorists....
I could go on, but it would be wasted words....
Sorry Leon, you hung youself
June 19, 2007 - 13:02 ET by Airforce_5_OSorry Leon, you hung youself out on this dude. LOL
Stuck you foot in your mouth there.
I disagree Airforce.I think m
June 19, 2007 - 13:52 ET by LeonI disagree Airforce.
I think my example works just fine.
I just found it funny that she was arguing about defending life, then her tag line was a cry for war.
I didn't realize it was going to cause such a rabid line of responses. My full metal jacket example works perfectly as a similar example.
Leon the key here is your &qu
June 19, 2007 - 14:04 ET by TruthMongerLeon the key here is your "thinking" old chum...hint...hint...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Leon --you are incredible---
June 19, 2007 - 13:12 ET by misterbillLeon --you are incredible---which you proved earlier today. You leap to the fray with little or no knowledge. You wrap yourself in cloak of hatred for all things conservative.Now you prove yourself to be the champion of syllogisms. You are a fool!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leon--all cats have four legs, all dogs have four legs, ergo all dogs are cats. What a maroon!!!!
Let's not beat up on Leon jus
June 19, 2007 - 13:27 ET by TruthMongerLet's not beat up on Leon just because he's an astounding idiot - I happen to be one too...and I can tell you it kinda hurts:(...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Granted, I'm not the quickest
June 19, 2007 - 09:38 ET by LeonGranted, I'm not the quickest of cats at the best of times, but I'm not seeing why this quote is so unbelievably stupid.
Partial birth abortion IS a procedure performed rarely when their is risk to the mother's life. What's wrong with that statement? What am I missing?
This seems to me exactly what partial birth abortion is.
Oh, silly Leon
June 19, 2007 - 09:41 ET by Cool ArrowThe health of the fetus?
read it again leon - slower this time
June 19, 2007 - 09:42 ET by florida_chadrisks to the fetus?? The fetus is KILLED in the process.
That's what I missed. I tol
June 19, 2007 - 09:43 ET by LeonThat's what I missed. I told you I wasn't quick.
Now I got it. Thanks.
Better you than me
June 19, 2007 - 09:46 ET by Cool ArrowI'm gonna read closer too. This place can be brutal.
Watch the quotes. The conse
June 19, 2007 - 09:42 ET by sarcasmoWatch the quotes. The conservatives' problem is that a "fetus" magically transmogrifies into a "baby" at some point, at which time an "abortion," for them, is like murder. Late term especially, I can see their point quite clearly. Distilled, it is the following: It's a lot easier to kill a "fetus" than a baby, and something that looks like a baby & survives outside the womb like a baby might just be a "baby" to them. I'm technically "pro choice" according to them (even though it's not quite that simple, IMO) and even I can see that.
JMR
"At some point"You
June 19, 2007 - 09:55 ET by Jimbo"At some point"
You mean at the moment of conception?
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Well, that's the controvers
June 19, 2007 - 09:59 ET by sarcasmoWell, that's the controversy! If it's truly "the moment of conception," then an IUD, which prevents implantation of a fertilized egg before either partner is/was aware of a potential pregnancy, is morally exactly like a partial birth abortion done late-term at 8&1/2 months. That particular argument, however, does not seem to do too-well in the real world, does it?? Therefore, arguments have "evolved," but scientific facts remain facts despite any and all opinions.
JMR
Good point Sarc, I wonder i
June 19, 2007 - 10:05 ET by MightyMouthGood point Sarc, I wonder if IUD users are made aware of the mechanics of the device.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
They're probably about as a
June 19, 2007 - 10:11 ET by sarcasmoThey're probably about as aware as car owners these days are aware of the mechanics of how their car gets down the road (or how many kinds of gas they really buy every year, even if they think it's "one"). Namely, not much. But facts remain facts. If you're saying "it's conception that's the moment," then logically you're also effectively saying "all IUDs are murder." I'm not sure, but this might be an argument to bring back the "Today" spermicidal barrier sponge, featured on Seinfeld. I'm not all that concerned about it, because I don't think IUDs resemble murder.
JMR
"f you're saying "
June 19, 2007 - 13:32 ET by ckc1227"f you're saying "it's conception that's the moment," then logically you're also effectively saying "all IUDs are murder."
Not exactly, because conception doesn't occur everytime someone has unprotected sex. In fact, it doesn't happen most of the time. Conception isn't an automatic. Abortion, however, kills an unborn child 100% of the time.
No, exactly, and I'll tell
June 19, 2007 - 17:10 ET by sarcasmoNo, exactly, and I'll tell you why. With IUDs, it's at least possible for conception to happen without implantation (see QM & me below). This makes for moral issues as described extensively here already, for some people not-including me, with that form of contraception (which, to be honest, they'd call "abortion" if even one implantation were prevented). I have many more issues with abortions as they get later, and idiots who can only "win" debates with themselves are very unlikely to change my mind -- especially in this forum -- on a moral issue. One thing about me that conservatives (well, ok, the honest ones here...) must admit is that I'm perfectly willing, 100% of the time, to take you people on, toe to toe, on any subject. "Truthmonger" may need to deal with that obvious fact, but I suspect the brighter ones among the rest of you are quite aware of it by now.
JMR
Trying to muddy the water to
June 19, 2007 - 10:08 ET by JimboTrying to muddy the water to gain support for your approval of abortion doesn’t sway me one bit.
And I find your attempt to equate an IUD with a partial birth abortion on the morality scale as offensive.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Facts != muddy the water. A
June 19, 2007 - 10:12 ET by sarcasmoFacts != muddy the water. And it's not me that's logically making them equivalent, I'm just pointing out the facts, which -- as usual -- is pissing people off.
JMR
The facts arent pissing me of
June 19, 2007 - 10:14 ET by JimboThe facts arent pissing me off. You are.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Good. Try to do something a
June 19, 2007 - 10:15 ET by sarcasmoGood. Try to do something about it!
JMR
I already did.Jimbo says - &q
June 19, 2007 - 10:19 ET by JimboI already did.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
And failed.JMR
June 19, 2007 - 10:19 ET by sarcasmoAnd failed.
JMR
You're a fool and continue to
June 19, 2007 - 10:21 ET by JimboYou're a fool and continue to prove it.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Sarc is quite correct - let's
June 19, 2007 - 12:55 ET by TruthMongerSarc is quite correct - let's oppose IUD's too! Thanks sarc!
Was that the response you were hoping for:)? Hope not...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Jimbo, Now I am not here to c
June 19, 2007 - 10:34 ET by BinxlyJimbo,
Now I am not here to create problems like some aggitators on here but what pains me is that you are flat out *ignoring* alot of what sarc has said. He said he supports choice but that *it isn't that simple* meaning its not a matter of 'if they want it, go for it.' That its a much more gray area. Plus, facts sadly DO muddy water. Nothing, well, *few* things in life are black and white. The reason people disagree so much and partisanship *does* exsist today is because there is NO ideal answer. He brings up a good point. I myself am against abortion but I am a libertarian and therefore believe, while there should be things put in place to protect the welfare of the unborn child, I do believe certain EXTREME cases are times when considering abortion, although sad, may be an option worth exploring. What about rape? Incest?
I know you feel strongly on your position but being so closed minded and quick to anger only hurts the argument and further invalidates your opinion to others. That said, i'm not attacking, I'm just trying to help. I imagine you and sarc and I actually agree on ALOT. Simply because we disagree here is not a valid reason to get personally angry or as Ive seen in the past, label anyone not towing the party line as a 'crazy liberal.' Afterall, we can't accuse the left of such acts of alienation if we do the same. We should promote dialog, not stifle it.
Why is a certain Talking He
June 19, 2007 - 10:37 ET by sarcasmoWhy is a certain Talking Heads album's title-song running-madly through my mind at the moment??
JMR
Fear of Music sarc
June 19, 2007 - 10:39 ET by Cool ArrowThis ain't no party. This ain't no disco
Same as it ever was
Does sarc support the baby's
June 19, 2007 - 12:56 ET by TruthMongerDoes sarc support the baby's choice? Or is that too simple...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
crickets as usual... someday
June 19, 2007 - 13:11 ET by TruthMongercrickets as usual...
someday i really hope to have an abortion conversation with someone about the baby's choice - nothing against mothers of course...everyone has one...
what a lovely sound...chirp..
June 19, 2007 - 13:28 ET by TruthMongerwhat a lovely sound...chirp...chirp...chirp...so peaceful...so serene...so...(snore)...(snore)...
How absolutely-moronic. Fee
June 19, 2007 - 17:06 ET by sarcasmoHow absolutely-moronic. Feel good "winning" a debate with yourself, dummy??
JMR
crickets are chirping
June 19, 2007 - 17:42 ET by sarcasmoI'm going to be rude, because you (unlike me -- I went to Hooters while you "debated" you!) have posted, and say "crickets are chirping"!
JMR
Sarc-o-gram
June 19, 2007 - 17:46 ET by TruthMongerI just want attention:(...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Obviously...JMR
June 19, 2007 - 17:47 ET by sarcasmoObviously...
JMR
Life begins at conception.
June 19, 2007 - 10:42 ET by JimboLife begins at conception. Black......and.....white. No muddy water, no ifs, ands, or buts. Actually, it's a very simple concept that supporters of abortion try to obscure.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Ok Jimbo, and I have to agree
June 19, 2007 - 11:10 ET by BinxlyOk Jimbo, and I have to agree. However, when the egg is fertilized, in our definition, it is indeed 'alive.' While IUD's are not *always* used to separate the fertilized egg from attaching, the cases where that DOES happen is just as sarc said, equal to abortion in the sense that you're killing a live being. i'm not trying to mince words, but rather, take a page out of your book of black and white and present it under such pretense. therefore, IUD's although not ALWAYS killing a life, have the risk to do so. Therefore sarc's argument *does* hold weight.
Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm presenting what the facts boil down to, and again, its never a pretty pie that they boil down to. Usually a muddy stew which can offer not ideal solution.
No it doesn’t. While both
June 19, 2007 - 11:16 ET by JimboNo it doesn’t.
While both scenarios would technically be considered abortion of a life and therefore wrong, my problem with Sarc is that he is putting the use of an IUD on the same moral plane as partially removing a baby from it’s mother’s womb and scrambling it’s brains with a piece of steel in an effort to stop it’s heart and kill it. If you are ok with that, so be it, but I will disagree with you too.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
Of course literally it isn't
June 19, 2007 - 12:16 ET by BinxlyOf course literally it isn't the same. One is less graphic, but that isn't his point. Sarc isn't arguing the 'means' are the same, rather arguing that the 'end' is the same. In that case it is, an aborted life. I'm just saying his point is not as unfounded as you may want to think. Is late term abortion the same as an IUD? Heck no. Thats a slippery slope however. An early term abortion in that sense isn't 'the same' as a late term abortion, however, all three end up the same way, a 'murdered' life. Again, Sarc isn't saying IUD's and sucking an unborn child's brain from it's head is the same, that'd be crazy and sarc isn't crazy. Sarc is simply saying that IF the argument is 'it's wrong to abort a life' then IUD's techincally fit into that category.
Why is this a problem Jimbo?
June 19, 2007 - 12:59 ET by TruthMongerWhy is this a problem Jimbo? It's nice to see sarc halfway to pro-life here...gimme a hand and we'll pull him into captivity...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Any idea why adoption isn't t
June 19, 2007 - 10:43 ET by HelenSAny idea why adoption isn't the first option if rape has occurred? And wouldn't amniosynthesis indicate if there's a problem in the case of incest so adoption could be an option there as well?
When, medically, is there such a risk to the mother that the only way to save her is to kill her baby? (A possibility might be a particularly agressive cancer that will only respond to equally agressive chemo or other treatment but that would hurt or kill the baby). I don't often hear of that scenario being mentioned as a justification for abortion. Always, or usually, rape / incest.
There's got to be another option than death to baby if it's inconvenient to carry it to term.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
Smokescreens, HelenS
June 19, 2007 - 10:49 ET by Cool ArrowBring up the subject and all the "what ifs" come out of the woodwork.
Honestly, pro abortionists want it when they want it and how they want it. They also demand the legitimacy of a "consensus" of scientists.
Hmmm, where have I heard that word "consensus" before?
Well that is true, but when t
June 19, 2007 - 12:19 ET by BinxlyWell that is true, but when there are new studies showing that there is reason to believe many rapists are 'mentally unsound' they risk passing on such a gene to their illegitimate offspring. I'm not one to argue nurture can't overturn nature, in fact I believe it absolutely can, however, the argument there still stands and creates a bit of a conundrum as to whether the child will grow up and become just as 'disturbed' as their father.
I think the rape argument is
June 19, 2007 - 12:25 ET by ErgoDyneI think the rape argument is flaccid.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
"Well that is true, but
June 19, 2007 - 12:45 ET by QueenMum"Well that is true, but when there are new studies showing that there is reason to believe many rapists are 'mentally unsound' they risk passing on such a gene to their illegitimate offspring. "
No offense, Binxly. But that's the way my hillbilly in-laws feel about adoption. "You can't know for sure what you're going to get." A slippery slope argument, IMO. For instance, should anyone who has a mental illness be prohibited from having children? The gamut of mental illness is pretty wide. Do you want to draw the line?
Helen S.: As regards the question of encouraging the rape victim to consider adoption: I don't think it has anything to do with the baby or the possiblity that it may be "flawed". Those who would argue for abortion in the instance of a rape are looking out for the well-being - physical and mental - of the rape victim. Talking to them about adoption doesn't make sense. Now, if the victim is willing to carry the baby to term, then it's time to talk adoption. Please understand that I'm playing devil's advocate here. These statements do not necessarily represent my personal view.
We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. - Queen Victoria
Totally agree there personall
June 19, 2007 - 12:53 ET by BinxlyTotally agree there personally Queen Mum but the problem is that I don't really command the moral authority to say either way. I agree, I don't believe mentally unsound children should be killed or sent off to be forgotten but the argument many will bring is that, if you remove the 'emotional' aspect of it, getting rid of those at risk to be inclined to such distasteful behavior as rape and violence would be better off 'removed' from society. Again, this is not *my* opinion, but again creates that 'slippery slope' and becomes a problem.
As for the rape argument being 'flacid,' I'm not saying *claiming* you were raped is grounds for justified abortion, no abortion is 'justified' as the child never committed a crime upon anyone, they didn't choose to be conceived. However, if I was a woman who was raped, especially at a young age where carrying the child would create *great* difficulty in my life (HS years or even earlier) I can't say I could carry it. Maybe that makes me an awful person. If I was raped however, the result is a burden *I* must carry and I certainly cannot judge any young woman who is truely 'raped' for not wanting to have to go through the distress of pregnancy and constantly knowing that inside of you is the seed of a most heinous act.
The baby is always innocent -
June 19, 2007 - 13:03 ET by TruthMongerThe baby is always innocent - regardless of how they get here - if you can ever justify abortion you are judging the value of the baby's life...
Don't like to use the H word that puts one in identical league with Hitler...
Abortion is a holocaust...over 3000 every day here in the land of LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...
P.S. I also oppose capital punishment...
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
TM, you are absolutely right.
June 19, 2007 - 13:27 ET by BinxlyTM, you are absolutely right. Again, I'm *personally* against abortion but I cannot judge certain instances as it is simply not my place, and, again, if I were raped and became pregnant, wrong or not, I don't think I could carry it. As an adult, yes, I would. If I were 15, no. Again my argument is not the baby's innocence, of course, a life not yet lived is by default innocent. What about the girl? If she is getting trashed and passing out in an alley it's one thing, but what about the girls walking home who are abducted, raped, and dropped off in some park a sobbing mess? Is it right for us to condemn them for not wanting to carry the child?
BTW, I'm not asserting a right or wrong here, merely presenting the question to give some perspective on the issue. Sadly its easy for us watching at home to say 'I would have done it differently' when we aren't the ones suffering from the problem.
The child is innocent - we ar
June 19, 2007 - 13:32 ET by TruthMongerThe child is innocent - we are not "condemning the mother..."
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Please stop looking for some
June 19, 2007 - 14:06 ET by BinxlyPlease stop looking for some underlying accusation, I am aware you are not accusing the mother. My point is that it is a situation where *someone* must suffer, be it the mother or child. Again, I'm not advocating abortion or making raped women carry to term, it's not my place to judge. I was merely presenting a case, sort of 'food for thought' on the issue. That's all :)
"Is it right for us to c
June 19, 2007 - 14:40 ET by TruthMonger"Is it right for us to condemn them for not wanting to carry the child?"
Sorry I mistook this for an underlying accusation of condemning the mother. Leon can certainly attest to my reading problems here:)...
All must suffer no matter what happens. The non-suffering life hasn't been invented just yet...although I'm sure algore is working on it now that he's done inventing the internet and global warming...
I know you're not advocating - I was offering a little seasoning on your absolutely scrumptious food for thought.
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
hehe good deal. I can't thi
June 19, 2007 - 15:01 ET by Binxlyhehe good deal. I can't think of any food that can't use a lil seasoning ;)
As for the mis-interpretation no worries, I don't mind explaining myself as I sometimes fail to convey my message well.
The majority of pregnant-by-r
June 19, 2007 - 13:23 ET by ErgoDyneThe majority of pregnant-by-rape women carry the child to term.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
Well that is good news. My
June 19, 2007 - 13:49 ET by BinxlyWell that is good news. My only thing was that I think it'd be wrong to judge a rape victim who chooses not to carry it. If a woman who *was* raped and carried it, I can say they are neither wrong or right for passing judgement, but anyone who hasn't been in that situation it is definately wrong to judge.
If she wanted to kill her rap
June 19, 2007 - 14:43 ET by TruthMongerIf she wanted to kill her rapist it would certainly be wrong to judge that too!
...it was hard but I managed to keep religion out of it:)...
Well consider me wrong but I'
June 19, 2007 - 15:05 ET by BinxlyWell consider me wrong but I'll judge it. I give it a 10 out of 10! haha.
I'm not for capital punishment but personally, I wouldn't look at someone in that case as a 'murderer' in many ways, in my own mind at least, rape is just as bad, just on a *different* level. That life is forever ruined with a certain awful stigma. If I was raped and saw him walking free, I'd probably want to stomp his face in!
Binxly: I find your comment r
June 19, 2007 - 16:30 ET by QueenMumBinxly: I find your comment refreshingly honest. I too struggle with the issue of "What would you do if your daughter was raped?"
We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. - Queen Victoria
The life is in the blood
June 19, 2007 - 10:15 ET by Cool ArrowI suppose a case can be made for an abortion within 21 days of conception when blood first appears, but who knows that soon?
life begins at conception - p
June 19, 2007 - 10:12 ET by florida_chadlife begins at conception - period. Call it whatever you like, fetus, baby, mistake - but it is life. Any attempt to stop it is wrong. IMO
life begins at conception - p
June 19, 2007 - 10:12 ET by florida_chadDP
By the way – by your logic,
June 19, 2007 - 10:13 ET by JimboBy the way – by your logic, IUD = partial birth abortion is on the same scale as partial birth abortion = sticking an ice pick into the back of an adult’s head.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
It's not "my logic,&a