This may come as a surprise to many religious Americans in the country: PBS this month is broadcasting a documentary presenting both sides of the controversial issue of the “separation of church and state.”
As many of you know, this has been an ongoing debate for decades as to when this term first appeared, and what the Founding Fathers’ intent truly was concerning government involvement in organized religion.
The documentary’s goals are described thusly at the PBS website (emphasis added throughout):
America is a nation forged in the furnace of controversy over religion in politics. The events of 9/11 brought that conflict into sharper relief, and the 2004 presidential election provoked a closer examination of the role of religion in American government. The historical documentary WALL OF SEPARATION, airing in June 2007 (check local listings) on PBS, examines the origins and history of this controversy.
The “wall of separation” is a metaphor deeply embedded in the American consciousness. Most Americans assume that the First Amendment prevents the mixing of politics and religion. The freedom of religion clauses protect individuals from the entanglement of religion with government and secure the right to freely exercise religious faith. America is a religiously pluralistic culture guided by a secular government.
And here was the shocker:
But what would surprise most Americans is the discovery that this is not what the Founding Fathers intended when they established the nation and wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights. In fact, they had a radically different interpretation of the role of religion in state and federal governments. Just what was their view? Why was it different? Where did the “wall of separation” metaphor come from? And how did its meaning evolve into what we consider it today?
WALL OF SEPARATION explores both sides of the issue by telling the story of the “wall” metaphor, from its humble beginnings in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church through important Supreme Court cases like Everson vs. Board of Education and the most recent decisions about Ten Commandment displays. Actor Liev Schreiber narrates.
For those interested, this is what President Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut:
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
And, this was their inquiry to him:
The address of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut; assembled October 7th 1801.To Thomas Jefferson Esq., the President of the united States of America.
Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your Election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoy’d in our collective capacity, since your Inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief Magistracy in the United States: And though our mode of expression may be less courtly and pompious than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, Sir to believe, that none are more sincere.
Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty – That Religion is at all times and places a Matter between God and Individuals – That no man ought to suffer in Name, person or effects on account of his religious Opinions – That the legitimate Power of civil Government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbour: But Sir our constitution of government is not specific. Our antient charter, together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted as the Basis of our government at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws & usages, & such still are; that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation; & therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek after power & gain under the pretence of government & Religion should reproach their fellow men – should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.
Sir, we are sensible that the President of the united States is not the national Legislator & also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial Effect already, like the radiant beams of the Sun, will shine & prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America’s God has raised you up to fill the chair of State out of that good will which he bears to the Millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence & the voice of the people have cal’d you to sustain and support you in your Administration against all the predetermin’d opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth & importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.
And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.
Signed in behalf of the Association,
Neh’h Dodge
Eph’m Robbins }The Committee
Stephen S. Nelson
It should be very interesting to see how this is all covered.
*****Update: NB reader Jeff Dietz found this fabulous piece of information at the Library of Congress website:
THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.




















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In his "Danbury" letter Jeffe
June 18, 2007 - 10:09 ET by Warner Todd HustonIn his "Danbury" letter Jefferson used the words "act of the whole American people" and "supreme will of the nation" for a very specific reason. While he obliquely seemed to be supportive of the Baptist's plight, he did not give them direct support for overturning Connecticut's state laws just on his say-so. Jefferson restricted his response to the Federal (or National) position, distancing himself from being seen to talk badly about the state's laws. After all, as president of the United States, Jefferson had no power to alter a state's Constitution. Worse, should a letter he had written attacking a state's Constitution on an issue that was commonly extent in most of the Union become public, it could lead to a messy backlash that Jefferson did not need after the tumultuous and vicious presidential campaign of 1800.
Lastly, it should be remembered that Jefferson already had an unsavory reputation as an irreligious, heathen as the charge was leveled against him during the contentious 1800 campaign. Jefferson knew that every state in the Union (except Rhode Island) had a state sponsored religion since before the days of the Revolution, so by, relegating himself to the settled national issue, he could not easily be accused of more atheist sentiments.
So, what does this mean to the issue of "separation of church and state" for today's argument? It means that Jefferson's letter should not be used by anti-religionists to support their position. Jefferson was clearly saying that religious issues were in the various state's area of influence and control, not his as leader of the Federal Union. Unfortunately, today's anti-religionists who wish to eliminate religion in the states as well as the Federal Union illegitimately use Jefferson's words in their cause misconstruing Jefferson to say that all religion should be eliminated from government.
A true reading of Jefferson's letter would tend to undermine the secularists who imagine that Jefferson was saying in the Danbury letter that all government should be separated from religion because he made no effort to say that the states should emulate the Federal government's separation. After all, an "act of the whole American people" refers to those acts made concerning rules for the Federal Union, not those of the individual states.
In summation, Jefferson was addressing the separation of powers as much as he was of that of the Federal government and religion.
This is a fascinating point you make Warner.
June 18, 2007 - 10:37 ET by acaiguanaThis is a fascinating point you make Warner.
Sometimes, I wish Jefferson hadn't been so prolific in his writings. Gives the other side too many ambiguous cites.
My favorite is the one engraved on his memorial which basically states that he dedicated his life in a struggle against tyranny over the minds of men.
But, this is a good take. States have been relegated to the whim of the Constitution in that they too cannot make laws regarding religiion. Jefferson wouuld argue that unless specifically enumerated, the State's rights are embodied in their sovereignty.
I'm not too sure that your idea here is valid from the sovereign concept of a national Constitution being dominent over all, but it is an interesting argument.
I think it was probably settled during the Civil War.
Unfortunately, the sovereign definition that came out of the Civil War watered down the American Indian sovereignty that was recognized specifically in the Constitution which treated the Indian Nations as sovereign states.
Oh well, just had to comment on this.
ACA
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Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
I'm not too sure that your id
June 18, 2007 - 10:45 ET by Warner Todd HustonWELL! Ya Could have just said... "Jane you ignorant slut."-- Ha, ha. (and I typed my little fingers to the BONE on that idea, too!)
Still, while it may have been settled by the Civil War to some extent, that solution had nothing to do with the Founders or their era in any way other than tying up that pesky slavery question.
So, I'll return the favor and say I'm not too sure that bringing the Civil War into the argument is valid.
Well, that's what I get for trying to cover sovereignty.
June 18, 2007 - 10:54 ET by acaiguanaWell, that's what I get for trying to cover sovereignty. Just can't please all of the people all of the time. Drat.
Jane...
:-)
ACA
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Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
LOL
June 18, 2007 - 10:56 ET by Warner Todd HustonLOL
Warner, here's my favorite Jefferson Quote.
June 18, 2007 - 11:08 ET by acaiguanaWarner, here's my favorite Jefferson Quote.
"I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Be nice if Al Gore and the Democrat Left would think like this,huh?
ACA
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Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
ACA
June 18, 2007 - 11:43 ET by Dave RBe nice if Al Gore and the Democrat Left would think like this,huh?
Actually, there are more than a few republicans out there who would benefit as well.
Are you litening, Trent Lott?
Yeah, Dave R, the love fest for politicians is scary.
June 18, 2007 - 11:56 ET by acaiguanaYeah, Dave R, the love fest for politicians is scary.
This is the problem with professional politicians of both parties. They are truly afraid of the free expression of ideas.
Republicans are as bad as Democrats in this regard. I have a great distrust of these people. They do not ever produce anything of substance in their lives. They never run a real business nor make a payroll.
They exempt themselves from the very laws they foist on the citizenry and then they ignore the enforcement of their laws which reduces the respect for all laws. Take immigration for example.
The polticians are so enamoured with kowtowing to the immediate craze or fad demand from the special interest group that we ban trans fats in NY and allow 12 million illegal immigrants to flood the gates of the city.
No wonder the average slob (like me) is disgusted with the whole thing.
ACA
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Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
Religion Vs. Faith
June 18, 2007 - 13:09 ET by dwillmoreThere is a great deal of confusion between religion and faith. The two words mean very different things but are used interchangeably in our language today. Faith is a belief system and religion is a doctrinal positioning by man to better adhere to a belief system.
Our Founding Fathers were, for the majority, part of the Christian faith but practitioners of many different religions in that faith. These people left Europe to be able to practice their religion of choice and not be part of a State sponsored religion. This is what the First Amendment clause was all about. The people did not want interference by the government in their religious lives. It plainly states that Congress shall make no laws regarding religion, not that religion had no place in politics.
It is also important to note that the clause is in the Federal Constitution. The States were free to set their own constitution and many states did have religion/governmental body interaction.
A Matter of Interpretation
June 18, 2007 - 13:17 ET by dwillmoreCan you imagine what the courts would do if our current breed of politicians had been part of the Constitutional Convention? All of the flip-flopping and grab handing being done by the politicians would open anything in the Constitution up to multiple interpretations.
The security and national sovereignty of the nation would be questioned.
Exactly what the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branch authority was.
Did they really want an Electoral College over the popular vote?
Who has the power to declare and un-declare war?
Ben Franklin
June 18, 2007 - 13:21 ET by Cool ArrowSome insignificant joker might say:
We need to all hang together on this or we will all hang separately.
It is very interesting how th
June 18, 2007 - 10:23 ET by GothampcIt is very interesting how the liberals have taught history and completely left out how religious the Founding Fathers were. There are many examples of their actions toward a mixture of religion and state. Thomas Jefferson attended weekly church services that were held in the Capitol Building. Tax payer money was used to print Bibles to teach children to read. In treaties with the American Indians, one of the goals was to get missionaries to teach them Christianity.
One good source of the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers is David Barton of Wallbuilders.org.
Unfortunately, the first amen
June 18, 2007 - 10:29 ET by FishFace222Unfortunately, the first amendment which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise of" has now morphed into the phrase "It's illegal for Congress to endorse any religion." The last time I checked, endorsing something and making laws for something are 2 different things.
I guess we should expect that from a party that thinks "the right not to be offended" is also a law.
Argument
June 18, 2007 - 10:52 ET by cvgbuckeyeWell lets see now. I was just practicing my speech upon standing before God at his judgement of my life.
No, no Lord. I'm aware that you are the author of all life and all things BUT, such was not the case with the government that I and my fellow Americans elected. No, no I'm not saying they were greater than you, Lord, but our Constitution prevented us from allowing you in. Yes, I know that you created all the people in the government but we (I) thought you wouldn't mind taking a back seat to them for a while.
Yes, I knew it was wrong but a very few people were so loud and abusive about it that I did not object when they excluded you.
Then where else did I exclude you? Well there was the schools, the Boy Scouts, team sports, the military, public buildings; etc.; etc. Oh no Lord, we didn't exclude atheists and evolutionists and homosexuals. We wouldn't dare.
How do I explain all this? Well, let me see now;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; well;;
Perhaps the next PBS document
June 18, 2007 - 10:46 ET by balboaPerhaps the next PBS documentary will tackle the original meaning of that "right to bear arms" thingamajig?
Or whatever happened to the
June 18, 2007 - 10:53 ET by Jack BauerOr whatever happened to the 10th amendmernt thingy!
Ask the majority in Raisch,
June 18, 2007 - 10:57 ET by sarcasmoAsk the majority in Raisch, they were the ones last seen handling it rather-roughly...
JMR
I'd be more concerned if they
June 18, 2007 - 10:54 ET by FastEdI'd be more concerned if they were to look at, "We the people . .", and how that would affect the over-extension of government, by both parties.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
bal,Actually, I would be most
June 18, 2007 - 10:58 ET by Dave Rbal,
Actually, I would be most interested to see just how many different ways these intellectually tortured wretches can interpret "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Should be a hoot.
Wow, what a total surprise.
June 18, 2007 - 17:12 ET by JasonCWow, what a total surprise. A conservative libertarian who wants to be able to have a small arsenal in his home and walk around in public with two glocks on his person forgot about the entire first half of the second amendment: the dependent clause "A well-regulated militia being necessary to security of a free state." I'm shocked. The NRA regularly forgets to include this part, since the majority of their members just want to own guns so they can feel like bad asses, not so they can assemble in an organized and regulated militia to defend their state.
Seriously, how do you right-to-bear-arms types reconcile that pesky portion of the amendment which explicitly links gun ownership to a regulated militia? This oughtta be good.....
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
JC
June 18, 2007 - 21:45 ET by Noel SheppardJC,
I'll give it a go. Here is the actual text of the 2nd Amendment:
From this, you seem to believe the intent was only for members of a militia to bear arms. Why? The second part of the sentence says "the right of the People." It doesn't say "the right of members of a militia." If the Founding Fathers only wanted militia members to bear arms, wouldn't they have been so specific rather than stating "the People."
Throughout the entire document, didn't "the People" mean everyone save slaves? Are you suggesting that in this one instance, "the People" meant something different? That's quite a stretch.
Furthermore, you must understand some of the precedent concerning this right in England. Please forgive the Wiki:
I hope this helps. ns
Noel, I'll address semantic
June 19, 2007 - 11:39 ET by JasonCNoel, I'll address semantics first. Without getting into a big thing about grammar and usage (never mind grammar and usage in the late 18th century, which any AP US History student knows can be really damn difficult to decipher despite being technically the same language he/she speaks), I gotta say that I read the amendment as explicitly meaning "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state." This isn't me reading it the way I want to read it or the way that flatters my ideological precepts, this is strictly how I believe the amendment is written.
As to the Henry II/III portion, which I found very interesting and did not begrudge for being from Wiki, this seems to me rather obsolete. Now, after all, we do have police and National Guardsmen which perform essentially the same function as the armed citizenry you describe in that era. The notion of a state militia is now irrelevant. As such, the clause that is linked to it in A#2, ought also to be re-evaluated. Paul Fussell's excellent essay "A Well-Regulated Militia" addresses these points very well.
Now, I am not anti-gun. I enjoy shooting. But I do find 2nd Amendment absolutists to be extremists along the lines of "Bush Planned 9/11" advocates on the left. And unlike them (the A#2 absolutists), I do not live in paranoid fear that the federal government will swoop in to take away my rights; be they guns, worship, or Christmas.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
I think the reason for the se
June 18, 2007 - 11:26 ET by BruzillaI think the reason for the seperation of church and state is perfectly clear, and I'm an Agnostic. The Founding Fathers did not want another Church of England episode where the king (Henry VIII) was able to create his own religion and make himself the head of it, then force the nation to renounce their religion and convert to his while he got to make all the religious rules. The purpose of the Establishment Clause was to keep government out of the affairs of the church, not the other way around, and has nothing to do with government endorsing, supporting, or being involved with a religion... the government is just banned from creating a Church of America. That's why Jefferson had no issue with religious services in the Congress.
And this is also why Jimmy c
June 18, 2007 - 11:40 ET by TruthMongerAnd this is also why Jimmy can't thank Jesus Christ in his valedictorian speech...!
It wasn't just against the Ch
June 18, 2007 - 12:04 ET by KC MulvilleIt wasn't just against the Church of England. It was the practice in all of Europe for as long as anyone knew. The king (or prince, or whoever was locally powerful) selected the religion. If your king changed from Protestant to Catholic, so did you, whether you liked it or not. If he changed his mind, so did you, whether you liked it or not. That practice in Europe was slowly dying, but it still existed at the time of the constitution. The clause in our constitution was simply intended to ratify the idea that the State cannot pick your religion.
Here's the important point: the clause carries no value judgment, about either side. The clause doesn’t presume that government will “meddle” in religion, or that believers will impose voodoo on atheists. It doesn’t imply a value judgment for or against religion. It doesn’t imply that governments will corrupt religion. It carries no hidden agenda. It simply means that an individual can select his own religion. That’s it. Period.
Most of the arguments about freedom of religion presume that it was intended as a value judgment, either against religion or government. Then, the whole argument takes off on a tangent, and believers and atheists argue about whether religion is good or bad. Well, you can have that argument all you want, but the freedom of religion clause has little to do with it. The clause itself simply means that individuals can select their own religion.
From an Agnostic, no less..
June 18, 2007 - 12:53 ET by rimskyFrom an Agnostic, no less..
Religion = Belief System
June 18, 2007 - 15:56 ET by TheGuru22One of the things that constantly irritate me is the attitude secularists take against others who believe differently. An honest question to them would be "Do you feel anyone who holds a position of so called faith should serve office?" or "Can anyone express their ideas about their beliefs in the public shpere?" Their answers would be interesting.
The fact is that everyone is religous. Religion or Faith in contemporary terms is ones belief about the world, its creation, its function, and the moral values they derive from it. Why is their non-belief in an entity more valid than my belief in one? The common response is that "we use evidence and you just believe blindly". Faith does not mean the absence of evidence. It is quite the contrary. People have faith in something because of the evidence. I have faith that my wife will not sleep around on me based on the evidence of her behavior. If she was constantly not coming home at night and seen in seedy locations... my faith would take a hit.
In that same vein, I believe in God because of the evidence I have seen in my life. I will not go through the evidence here, but all sides believe something based on evidence we see from our own point of view. A non-belief in an Almighty is no different. They have a religion. It guides their thoughts, actions, and lives as does mine. The question is why do they think theirs is better.
Late,
The Guru
Brian Godawa wrote and direct
June 19, 2007 - 09:12 ET by JPninerBrian Godawa wrote and directed this film, check him out at http://godawa.com
He's a reformed Christian and hollywood screenwriter/director.
Check out Dkos, they are calling this 'falsified history' and are trying/calling pbs to get them to pull this. I can confirm in NC and SC this is not airing on our PBS stations.