Jacoby of the Globe: Border Fence Like Berlin Wall

Photo of Mark Finkelstein.
  • Bookmark and Share

Is liberalism contagious?

For some years, Jeff Jacoby has been a brave and lonely conservative voice on the op-ed pages of the Boston Globe, one whose voice I have admired. All the more disappointing, then, to read his column this morning, The demonizing of illegal immigrants, which could just as easily have been written by his erstwhile Globe colleague Thomas Oliphant, the quintessential effete East Coast liberal. Consider these excerpts:
Illegal immigrants don't steal across the Mexican border because they lack the patience to wait their turn in line. They do it because there is no line for them to wait in. The great majority of immigrants who enter the United States lawfully qualify for visas because of family ties: They are lucky enough to be related to a US citizen . . . For most illegal immigrants, a legal option simply doesn't exist.

To . . . the Pat Buchanans, the Lou Dobbses, the conservative talk-show hosts and their riled listeners -- the illegal entry is all that matters. They don't ask whether it makes sense to bar industrious and productive go-getters who value America as a land of opportunity and who supply labor for which there is a yawning demand.

[S]omething is not wrong -- intrinsically wrong, bad in and of itself -- merely because it is illegal.

Someone who crosses the border without a visa in order to find work doesn't deserve to be branded a "criminal."

The demonizing of illegal aliens keeps us from having a rational discussion about US immigration policy.
Most shocking is Jacoby's final paragraph:
Twenty years ago this week in Berlin, President Reagan uttered his memorable challenge: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Conservatives who extol Reagan's legacy might ask themselves what he would have thought of the idea that our response to hard-working risk-takers so eager for a piece of the American Dream that they endanger life and limb to come here should be a Berlin-style wall of our own.
As commentators from Rush to Rich Lowry have pointed out, the Berlin Wall was built to keep its people in -- to render them prisoners in their own country. The border fence is there to keep people out. And any country that doesn't control its borders will eventually cease to be a country.

It's disappointing that Jacoby doesn't acknowledge this. Has Jeff acquired some fuzzy liberal thinking via osmosis? Could it be time for him to take a Beantown break and recharge his conservative batteries elsewhere?

Contact Mark at mark@gunhill.net



—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.


Comments Policy

All comments are owned by whoever posted them and are subject to our terms of use. They should not be assumed to represent the views of NewsBusters.

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

It's called White Guilt Mark.

It's called White Guilt Mark. And if their not White, it's call "Whitey is a Racist, so these poor souls must be oppressed, hence, we must let them in."

Either way, it's pure liberalism on parade.

____________________________________________________

"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities." ~ Thomas Paine

They are Criminals

Maybe not in the felony sense, but definitly in the civil sense,  they steel from the system ie hospital, welfare, low income housing, food stamps, tax credits and anything else they can garner. hundreds of thousand of felony convictions, including murder, vehicular homocide, armed robbery, theft, false and stolen documents. And on and on.  Of course American citizens do some of these things too,,,,,,,,,,,,but they are American Citizens and we have to deal with them, we don't have to deal with illegals who are hear just to take advantage of our system,,,,,,,,BTW the Berlin wall worked, the Great Wall of China worked, and the Wall Isreal is building is working.......A WALL WILL WORK!!!  AMNESTY BY ANY OTHER NAME (guest worker prograg, z visas etc,) is still AMNESTY.  I SAY NO TO ANY TYPE OF AMNESTY.

You want to become an AMERICAN? Do it leagaly, go home apply then wait for an invitation like everyone else had to. Then respect out soverenty our language,and out flag and laws. Oh yes and our customs.

What other laws are liberal

What other laws are liberals opposed to? I mean, besides sodomy, under-age sex, etc.?

Considering the way they fawn

Considering the way they fawned over Tookie and that psycho woman who drowned her five kids, I'd say just about all of them.

Mother nature is a bitch - Ninth Corollary of Murphy's Law

Murder?

Murder?

What a load of unmitigated bu

What a load of unmitigated bulls#it! What the hell is with these morons and their open borders rhetoric?

Illegal immigrants don't steal across the Mexican border because they lack the patience to wait their turn in line. They do it because there is no line for them to wait in. The great majority of immigrants who enter the United States lawfully qualify for visas because of family ties: They are lucky enough to be related to a US citizen . . . For most illegal immigrants, a legal option simply doesn't exist. - So, there is no legal immigration from Mexico? The only Mexicans who are allowed to come here have American relatives? I would LOVE to see his source for this line of crap.

To . . . the Pat Buchanans, the Lou Dobbses, the conservative talk-show hosts and their riled listeners -- the illegal entry is all that matters. They don't ask whether it makes sense to bar industrious and productive go-getters who value America as a land of opportunity and who supply labor for which there is a yawning demand. - No, it makes sense to bar ANYONE attempting to enter this country illegally, according to our laws.

[S]omething is not wrong -- intrinsically wrong, bad in and of itself -- merely because it is illegal. - No, maybe not. But it's still illegal. If this is the case, one changes the law. One doesn't violate it because it's not "bad or wrong".

Someone who crosses the border without a visa in order to find work doesn't deserve to be branded a "criminal." - Someone who breaks the law is instantly a criminal.

The demonizing of illegal aliens keeps us from having a rational discussion about US immigration policy. - No, the empty rhetoric of politicians playing both sides against the middle for political gain keeps us from having any discussion. Besides, congress is elected to serve the will of the people, and the people (disregarding the loud-mouth minority and those with a special interest) want this stopped. PERIOD!

And I'm sick of the tired old line that "we can't deport all 12-20 million illegals". Not all at once, to be sure. If we were to first turn the faucet off by securing our borders, we could clean up the mess through attrition. As illegals are caught, for whatever reason, deport them.

NO ONE has the "right" to enter this country illegally. Tens of thousands wait their turn, following the legal procedures to gain US citizenship. Those who EARN their citizenship this way VALUE it more than many Americans born here, including, obviously, morons of the open border variety. Any immigration bill that offers any form of amnesty for being in this country illegally devalues citizenship and slaps the faces of all who adhered to our laws to come here.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

Dead-on! The other thing th

Dead-on! The other thing that pisses me off is that we the people are suppose to just roll over and accept whatever these idiots propose to fix a problem that THEY caused through their utter negligence!!!

You're exactly right, Sarge.

You're exactly right, Sarge.  The more senior  Fools on the Hill who are insisting that this bill is the only way to fix the "immigration problem" are, for the most part, the ones who promised us in 1986 that everything would be fixed after a blanket amnesty, then through gross negligence --- and that's exactly what it is --- failed to resource and oversee the enforcement of the laws guarding our borders and processing immigration.

Now they expect us to believe that this significantly more complex bill will fix the problem.  Yeah, right.  Utter nonsense!

Well said Beowulf. We need

Well said Beowulf. We need to close the borders first. Why can't we find a politician who wants to do this???

Not a word about how Mexico m

Not a word about how Mexico must be a horrible place to live, how their government has failed them. Oh, no. It's always that WE SUCK for wanting to keep illegal entry 'illegal!'

Then, when the terrorists hit a major city in the U.S., and it's proved that they entered this country through Mexico, the same people who demand rights for the right of illegal entry into our country, will blame Bush for not doing anything to protect our borders.

Isn't it great? The people in my country risk their lives to get out of it, and it's the Americans who are struggling with the issue, not me! Ha, ha, ha! Dopey Gringos! - - What Vincente Fox is probably thinking

Mark,I think you just may hav

Mark,

I think you just may have stumbled upon tumbler's true identity!  :-)

Seriously, though, I think Mr. Jacoby needs to replace the batteries in his calculator.

To me, one of the more hideous aspects of the immigration "reform" bill is the provision that each illegal alien will be permitted to bring in five more over ten years.

Now, the government's "official" estimate is that there are about twelve million illegals in this country today. Knowing the government's propensity for stroking numbers, that tells me right up front that the actual number is probably twice that, or around twenty-four million (personally I think it is closer to thirty million, but who's counting?).

If Mr. Jacoby would just pull his calculator out and run the numbers, he might be surprised at what he discovers:

12 mil. x 5 = 60 mil. over ten years.

24 mil x 5 = 120 mil. over ten years.

30 mil x 5 = 150 mil. over ten years.

No culture that has ever existed could withstand in influx of that many outsiders in that short a period of time without losing its identity.

What makes Mr. Jacoby think that we can?

Build the damn fence, George!

Standard liberal line, they (

Standard liberal line, they (illegals) are victims and thus they get a pass on doing the right thing.   Victims have no responsibility for themselves since that would involve blaming the victim.  Since victims have no responsibility, the closest person with the deepest pockets is responsible to clean up the mess.  Corollary: If no one person has deep enough pockets, make everyone pay/share that way we all can feel good about ourselves.

Um, Mr. Jacoby, when does the government of Mexico and other South American countries have the responsibility of taking care of their own people?  When are they required to clean up their act and create opportunities for employment for their people?  When are the people of these countries responsible to demonstrate in the streets demanding an end to corruption and bad laws and policies that stifle business in their countries? 

Btw- Mr. Jacoby we have more than done our part to spread the wealth, we outsourced millions of jobs around the world now they demand to come here and take the remaining jobs especially from our own poor? Maybe it is time for liberals to grow up and become conservative.  Only a child runs home to momma to get their problems solved, we ain't your momma.  The difference between a survivor and victim is taking personal responsibility for the outcome, the same difference is true between what makes adult and a child.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

OUT-FRIGGIN-STANDING post dsc

OUT-FRIGGIN-STANDING post dscott! Talk about spot-on! Why does no one else place the responsibility (read: BLAME) where it belongs?

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

Amen, brother, amen!  I love

Amen, brother, amen!  I love this line: "Maybe it is time for liberals to grow up and become conservative" ... Ab-so-lute-ly Fu*king fantastic!

Simply brilliant!

Simply brilliant!

Do people actually believe th

Do people actually believe that a wall is going to prevent illegal immigration?

Seriously, it seems genuinely silly to me.  If people want to come here, they will come.  A wall won't do anything.  They'll dig under it, or go around it.

There are two things the government can do very little to control:  Drug Traffic & Illegal Immigrant Traffic.

My solution to the problem?  Simple:

1)  Punish those that hire illegal immigrants harshly - no jobs = no illegals
2)  Legalize and regulate drugs - people should be able to make their own decisions concerning substance use - if you want to spend your money on drugs, go right ahead - you'll get them whether they're legal or not

time to accept the reality of the situation. 

Ok Leon I give you one for th

Ok Leon I give you one for three, Punish those that hire illegals.

On the other two, fence and drugs- way out there in liberal land and Libertarian fantasy, respectively.

Fence - no one here claims that the fence will stop 100% of the illegals from coming, just as punishing any employer for hiring illegals will not stop 100% of the hiring, both must be done in addition to other things to be 99.9% effective.  Oh, and just because we can't stop the 0.1% doesn't mean we failed to stop illegal immigration, it just means we still are working on the solution. We view such rhetoric as insincere debating, few things in life are 100% effective. 

I won't get into the drugs debate, you won't convince most of us on that, I have seen people on drugs and the human wreckage that results, any argument you muster fails in the face of the wreckage I have seen.  This is the same failed idea as libs wanting to pull out of Iraq leaving them to their fate with the terrorists.  Quitting is the stench of failure.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

Great reply dscott.I hear wha

Great reply dscott.

I hear what you're saying about the wall, and I agree that i could prevent some illegals from coming, but I don't think it would be many.

I genuinely believe the only way to prevent illegal immigration is to punish employers that hire illegals.  I mean, let's be honest, it's not hard to target industries that might be more likely to hire illegals.  We all know what they are, why not go after them?  Huge fines, take aways licenses, etc.

This to me, seems like the easiest solution to enact and the most effective solution.  Again, why would they come here illegally if they know they won't be able to work?  I'll bet you'd start to see people lining up to become legal immigrants almost immediately.

As for the drugs, no need to get into it here, I just find these two issues to be similar in that they are purely market, invisible hand driven. 

Yes, I agree whole heartedly

Yes, I agree whole heartedly that employers need to be punished severly for hiring people who have no business working here.  My sentiment is not just on the principle of breaking the law but the harm their lazy and inconsiderate behavior has on our country's poor.  Depressing their wages and then saddling us the taxpayer with having to pay for government programs to deal with the results of their behavior.  This cost shifting in my opinion is stealing.  Just today another meat processing plant got raided, of 600 employees only 48 were legal with valid SS#s.  Inexcusable!  People need to go to jail for this as an example to the rest. 

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

I agree w/ Leon! Hell has officially frozen over!

I totally agree with Leon on the fence. They already use tunnels! The only way to stop them from coming in illegally is to take away the incentive. Even barring punishment if we'd just stop rewarding them so handsomely they'd stop the invasion. As for the drugs though Leon, legal or not the are a highly progressive and highly destructive. Just because uncle sam regulates it doesn't mean that they can be used responsibly. The crime associated with it could only drop briefly in the short term when the dealer wars ended. After that it would be replace by more prolific habit support crime.

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Ergo... no new legislation

Ergo... no new legislation is needed.

They already use tunnels!Re

They already use tunnels!

Release the GIANT MUTANT RATS, Smithers!!

You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll talk jive! Just check out my latest YouTube video Hillary Clinton Talks Jive

Don't be too quick to mock

Don't be too quick to mock there Scooter! I just said I agreed with him. I don't want to pick out china or anything.

Supertunnel!

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Hi Leon,About the drug th

Hi Leon,

About the drug thing. I agree with decriminalizing marijuana, but i have seen what crystal meth and crack does to people lives. I also like your immigration idea.

Agreed shawn.  Crystal Meth

Agreed shawn.  Crystal Meth and crack are devestating monsters, however, I don't consider that to be in the same category as say marijuana. 

Some might argue also that if drugs are legal, people wouldn't need to turn to cheap substitutes like Crystal Meth.

It's a complicated problem with no easy solution.  The only thing we know for sure is that the war on drugs is a complete waste of money.

I'm only really in favor of l

I'm only really in favor of legalization because I think government oversight and regulation is about the only way to destory something.

I mean look at tabacco. I say we legalize drugs, put the tabacco companies in charge of them and then let the government tax and regulate them out of society.

It is funny sometimes talking with people who advocate drug legalization yet are part of the "anti-smoking" movement and I reply: "Are you ok with putting tabacco companies in charge of them?" (note: Leon excluded)

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

Challenger,I think that's the

Challenger,

I think that's the perfect plan.  Let the tobacco companies handle everything and sure, tax the hell out of it.  It's better than flushing money down the toilet fighting drugs only to have them become more accessible, stronger, and cheaper.

Alas, sad to say it I have entered the world of the non-smokers.  I've been saying i was going to quit for a while and I finally did this spring.  But, in no way am I anti-smoking.  Again, I'm all for people killing themselves if that's their choice. 

Just so no one misunderstands

Just so no one misunderstands me, I'm not "pro-drug". I just think the drug war as it's currently being waged is failing so it's best to try a different strategy.

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

Leon???

"The only thing we know for sure is that the war on drugs is a complete waste of money."

As a parent, I could not disagree with you more. We may lose battles, but we win some too. We should never be afraid to fight the Good Fight...even against tremendous odds.

Hollyweird and their lot promote drug use with their movies, TV Shows and their lifestyles. There is no doubt that they are not helping the cause.

Now the question for you is, if the War on Drugs saves one life, is it worth it?

Winners never quit, Quitters never win.
[Which are you?]

outlaw booze or legalize refe

outlaw booze or legalize refer....................

booze is more dangerous than pot.

We should have learned from prohibition, it doesn't work. The drug war is very expensive.

Exactly florida.  Extremely

Exactly florida.  Extremely expensive.

And I'm tired of people acting like drugs are the devil and then going out and getting drunk on the weekends. 

Drinking is worse than any drug.  How many people die every year from drunk driving?  10s of thousands.

No other drug even comes close to this level of death.

"No other drug even co

"No other drug even comes close to this level of death."

Well no duh, could it be because they are NOT legal?

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Technically speaking, alcohol

Technically speaking, alcohol IS a drug by textbook defintion.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

Ha true true!

Ha true true!

Right, so give all the addict

Right, so give all the addicts and kids hospital grade Morphine....   Hahahahahahha!!!!  You guys KILL me.

Actually, the prosecution of the war on drugs, while not perfect, does have beneficial effects.  Those effects are that illicit narcotics flow into the country IS limited.  Just because Libertarians can get their supply from a dealer they know does not mean the flow is not mitigated in some manner.  (No vending machines on street corners selling Qualone to all comers for $1 a pop.)

That, and only those with weak character use illicit drugs.

How is booze different than d

How is booze different than drugs other than it being legal? Do drinkers have a weak character?

Those who imbibe tooo much as

Those who imbibe tooo much as a matter of sport do.

We in society pass value judgements on smokers these days, why not druggies and alchy's as well?

BD,You are wrong.  Anybody w

BD,

You are wrong.  Anybody who wants drugs can get them easily.  Their illegality is immaterial. 

Not only that but if you look at prices and strength of all drugs, prices are way down and strength is way up.  Cocaine and marijuana especially. 

The war on drugs has simply  made drug traffickers more efficient.  While wasting my tax dollars.

In my experience, when I was in high school it was easier to get drugs than alcohol.

Eric Schlosser, the author of

Eric Schlosser, the author of Fast Food Nation, wrote a great book about 3 years ago called Reefer Madness.

In the book he analyzes two current black markets (Marijuana & illegal workers) and contrasts them with an industry that was black market but is now public (porn).

Very interesting book.  His ultimate thesis is similar to that of Adam Smith.  Where there's a demand, there will be a supply, regardless of the barriers set up to block said supply.

Going Nowhere

One little problem: your posts show that you have completely given up on the United States.  I haven't.  You would be HAPPY to see the United States just exist, and Go Nowhere.  I wouldn't be.  The nations that have decriminalized drugs all have one thing in common: They Are All Going Nowhere. 

FIFTEEN DOWN, ONE TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

unsane

Well, your theory of a country going nowhere is if they do not have a great military and are short on innovation. Well I am convinced the leaders of taco bell must be potheads and innovative, how else could you create a cheesy gordida crunch if you were not stoned? lol.

Who gets to decide which dr

Who gets to decide which drugs are legal and illegal. I'm sorry but this is way too slippery of a slope to say that one drug is worse than the other and this one should be legal and this one not. 

Walls do work.  Of course, t

Walls do work.  Of course, they are only as good as the personnel manning them.

I do love love love this idea

I do love love love this idea.
But, how do we find out who is hiring illegals if there is no documentation of them working for the company or business?

It's called enforcing the exi

It's called enforcing the existing law, every person who is hired fills out the I-9 form.  They must supply two forms of ID ususally a drivers license and SS Card. Make ICE run the SS#

Every state in this country keeps a running tally (data base) of "every" employed person in their state to match against for child support enforcement purposes. Run the names with associated SS# against the SS data base, any mismatches, dispatch ICE agents to investigate and arrest.

Every person who is hired fills out the W-2 for their employer to calculate the proper withholding tax.  On this form, the SS# is required, in fact the employer is required by law to submit a check or payment to the IRS every quarter with the employee's name and SS# for withholding.  The IRS has the means to run every name and SS# against the SS data base for which it receives payment of taxes. 

As you see, we already had on the books the means to enforce the law, the lazy politicians and bureaucrats didn't do their jobs three times over.  I don't want to hear the quack that something isn't legal, that's why we have legislators to pass laws to make something legal or illegal.  They created the problem by their incompetence, now they can fix it by being conscientious.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

MrLister:It's simple.  Have

MrLister:

It's simple.  Have the police do the 'pop-in' on companies that are more likely to hire illegals.  i.e contractors, agriculture, maid services, restaraunts, etc. 

It's pretty easy to make an educated guess concerning the companies that would employ illegals.  All you would have to do is bust a couple in a particular area and i can guarantee other's that employ illegals will begin to change their behavior.

"I hear what you're sa

"I hear what you're saying about the wall, and I agree that i could
prevent some illegals from coming, but I don't think it would be many."

Right, and the Berlin Wall didn't stop many from leaving either, and the wall around Israel has done little to reduce suicide bombings, lol. Seriously, do you people even think at least a nanosecond about what you post before you post it?

People who oppose the wall do so for one primary reason: because it will work.

"I'm tired of hearing the nonsense that we can't deport 12 million who are here too"

Of course it's nonsense. No, it wouldn't happen over night, but no one said it would, or that it had to. In fact, it's better that it doesn't happen so quickly. That's nothing more than a strawman argument.

According to Michael Chertoff, 1 million illegals were deported last year. At that pace, we could deport the 12 million in 12 years, and by sealing the border, we could keep most of them from coming back.

Would this stop all illegals? Of course not. But if it reduces the current million or so who come here illegally each year to 100,000 a year, that would be a success.

Real quick.  I have to run,

Real quick.  I have to run, but how long is that wall in Israel again?

how long is the border between the US and Mexico?

That's what I thought.

Good thing Leon wasn't in charge

So if a wall is difficult to build and if it doesn't stop "most" illegal immigration, it's not worth the attempt?  

Good thing hand-wringers like you weren't in charge of, say, the Manhattan Project, the Hoover Dam, or the Space Program.

RJ, libs like Leon have a h

RJ, libs like Leon have a hard time getting off their asses to do anything worthwhile. Ohhh, it's gonna be HARD so lets not do it!

Or smack dab in the middle of an endeavor Libs will wanna give up and go home because it's soooo HARD!! Liberal head hurt too much, must quit.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

not that they have the courage to admit it, MM

"or smack dab in the middle of an endeavor, Libs will give up and wanna go home because it's so HARD!!"

Not that they have the courage or self-awareness to admit that. 

I suppose we could take all o

I suppose we could take all of our prison walls down in this country then - i mean if their not really doing anything...

TM,Could you please explain h

TM,

Could you please explain how your comparison is even remotely similar?

RJ,why waste the time and the

RJ,

why waste the time and the money to build a wall that 'might' work when all we need to do to stop illegal immigration is to hold employers accountable?

Seems worthless to me.  Why is everybody ignoring the obvious solution?  Enforce the laws we already have.  It's not that complicated.

For once, we're in agreement, Leon

For once, we're in agreement, Leon, at least partially.

Yes, the primary focus should be on enforcement of existing laws, in particular going after employers.   But that can't be the only focus.   As we've seen recently, the pro-illegal forces have been putting legal roadblocks in the way of attempts to envorce the law and that will continue and increase.   Further, I don't trust legislators in Washington.   There will be ongoing efforts from that quarter to change the laws to the benefit of the illegals.

Therefore, border enforcement, including a fence, is necessary as a back-up while enforcement is being fought out in courts and in Washington.  

RJ,It had to happen sometime

RJ,

It had to happen sometime :) 

Plus, I'll bet if we were sitting at a bar, having a beer, chatting we'd agree with each other on a lot of things.  Just not liberal media bias!

I hear you on the wall, I just think that you have to look at Mexico.  It's a horrible place.  People will do anything to get the heck out of there.  Wall or no wall.  People are clever, especially when it comes to criminal things.  Where there's a will there's a way.  So for me, the wall can be defeated.  Not being able to find a job b/c employers that hire illegals are getting fined, etc. canNOT be defeated.

Mexico, Leon...

Mexico, Leon, needs to have their feet held to the fire.  The only way to do that is to force them to keep enough of their people home to foment sufficient anger to create change.   No, a fence won't keep out all, but it would keep out enough. 

Further, a fence will make OTMs hesitate about using our southern border for entry.    

RJ,I agree that in an ideal w

RJ,

I agree that in an ideal world Mexico could be held accountable, but if you ask me. I don't think they really care if their citizens come to America or not.

They certainly aren't interested in stopping illegal immigration.

All I'm saying is if I'm making 25 cents a day,  I'm coming to America, wall or no wall.

Disagree, Leon

I disagree, Leon.     I think Mexico cares very much that their citizens come to America.   The billions of dollars they send helps the economy, but more importantly, America provides a pressure relief valve for their unemployed and unhappy citizens.   Oh, the Mexican government cares very much.

Main sources of income for Me

Main sources of income for Mexico:

1) Oil

2) Remittances from the United States

FIFTEEN DOWN, ONE TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

Mexican income

Unsane, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your 2 observations in the wrong order?

But you are correct, sir.

Lysdexics Untie!

No, especially not these days

No, especially not these days.  PEMEX has a lot of oil to spare. 

But what does that tell you about a country like Mexico, that has a TON of geographical and demographic advantages in its favor?  It's number 2 earner of GDP are remittances?  Something is wrong, and indeed HAS been wrong, for quite some time...

FIFTEEN DOWN, ONE TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

PEMEX

What is wrong is that the big money folks have a convenient receptacle for all their poverty.  US.

The gift that keeps on giving is that our economy gets bloated with Illegals who, in a very dysfunctional way still love the Country that hates them.  So much so that Mexico enjoys the benefit of having its children trying to buy the love of their parent country.

We're not hearing a lot about Mexican citizens condemning the corruption in their country, but get them across the border, and they aren't very damned quiet about what is wrong with ours.

Reminds me of the riddle:

How many Country Western singers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Four.  One to screw it in and three to sing about how much they miss the old one.

Lysdexics Untie!

Hi Leon,You do have a point a

Hi Leon,

You do have a point about the size and scope we're dealing with here.  But I've always boiled down illegal immigration in my mind to an uninvited house guest.  I'm more than willing to let people in my house that I know (this equates to the legal immigration process).  I also take away incentives for people to steal my stuff by not putting a TV right by my window (this equates to taking away incentives for illegal aliens to be here by not giving them benefits, jobs, etc.).  Up to this point I'm sure you and I agree.  No one would stop there with their personal home, they would lock the doors, code the alarm, have guard dogs, and even have a gun in the house to protect themselves from unlawful entry.  My question is, why stop there when is at a national scale?

Yes, doing this would be expensive, but if it could cut the number of illegals down from the full flow it has been to a trickle, we'll see savings that will more than pay for the cost of the wall, maintenance, personnel, materials, etc.  And, our country will be much more secure.

Dutch

Great post Darth.  I underst

Great post Darth. 

I understand your house analogy unfortunately locking down an expansive border is a little more complicated than locking one's house.

The sheer size of our border makes a wall utterly absurd.

Leon and Tumbler

Leon is using the "it won't work" argument because he agrees with the liberal (and LaRaza) position against border enforcement.

It fits that he agrees with the liberal position of that intellectual giant, Tumbler.   Both of them wring their hands and say that since a fence is "difficult", there's no sense in attempting it....but it's just a cover used by open border proponents.

I'm reminded of what Rich Low

I'm reminded of what Rich Lowry wrote the other day.

Not to mention, primative Chinese can build a 4,000 mile wall but we can't?

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

This comment from a spoiled L

This comment from a spoiled Leftist who cries and whines whenever presented with any difficulty, and aches for a day when the United States shoots for total mediocrity on a daily basis.

(By the way, the inner-German border was 858 miles long.  The total was 960 if you toss in the Berlin Wall.)

Sure, I agree, punish those who hire illegal immigrants...BUT you MUST turn off the taps.  Shut down the border.  Burn the candle at as many ends as possible.  (But why am I not surprised at your sole focus on business, considering your documented intense, passionate hatred of business and capitalism?)

FIFTEEN DOWN, ONE TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

Unsane,The difference between

Unsane,

The difference between you and I (and many on this site) is that you're an idealist.  I'm a realist.

I think about realistic situations while you daydream about what 'should' happen.  It must be nice.

No, a wall won't prevent ille

No, a wall won't prevent illegal entry into the US (it just plain ain't immigration, so lose the term). It will, however, reduce it. The only way to prevent illegal entry is to fulfill Jacoby's accusation, and really make it like the Berlin Wall. Coast-to-coast wall, fence, concertina-wire, minefields, and machine-gun nests. How many coyotes, river swimmers, fence hoppers, and drug runners do you think would challenge that?

While I certainly wouldn't endorse such a thing, I will come right out and say that I would support it over open borders. And if it came to a choice between the two, I would add the same configuration to our northern border as well as mines and gunboats along both coasts. Think of all the employment opportunities such security would generate... 

Radical enough for you Leon???

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

It is more cost-effective t

It is more cost-effective to ENFORCE the laws we already have. That, or use land mines rather than a wall.

You have a point there, Leon,

You have a point there, Leon, but the main problem with Jacoby is that his hyperbolic rhetoric completely discredits him.  To compare a border fence to the Berlin Wall is a non-sequitur of the highest order.

Sadly, there is way too much of this kind of crap masquerading as legitimate journalistic debate.  Jacoby should be fired.

1.)  A wall will not prevent

1.)  A wall will not prevent illegal immigration by people walking as much as it will be a five minute obstacle.  If not covered by adequate border patrolmen it will be a wasted exercise. 

However, the wall in question WILL stop what the border patrolmen in the Cochise County area call "Drive throughs"  Drive throughs are usually 4WD vehicles that are used to smuggle contraband into the US.

2.)  Government CAN control narcotics trafficing at the border, but you might not like the results. 

Another reason the border fen

Another reason the border fence can't be compared to the Berlin Wall is because the BW split one country (or group of citizens) into two.  The fence America is building is between two countries (or two different types of citizens).

Exactly. The Berlin wall wa

Exactly. The Berlin wall was constructed to keep people in, rather than out. A more accurate comparrison would be the The Great Wall of China.

What bothers me is that I don

What bothers me is that I don't hear the argument about cultures coming from very many people. The Berlin Wall separated Germans from Germans.  They all spoke the same language, lived under the same law and had the same value system.  The Border Fence is separating Americans from Mexicans, two different cultures.

What bothers me is that our

What bothers me is that our government ignores the fact that their government officially sanctions illegal immigration.

Sarge,What bothers me still m

Sarge,

What bothers me still more is that our government appears to be unofficially-officially sanctioning illegal immigration.

Build the damn fence, George!

That's a pretty fair observ

That's a pretty fair observation. And both sides have their reasons, but none of them are good for the country.

About the only thing East and

About the only thing East and West Germans had in common was language. Their post-WWII philosophies were diametrically opposed. And the Berlin Wall was to keep people from leaving that "People's Paradise" in the GDR, not to keep FRG West Germans from swarming into East Germany for their fair share of the vast benefits of communism.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

The culture issue doesn't bot

The culture issue doesn't bother me so much.  To solve that problem, we need a Constitutional amendment to make English the official language (Read the next part very very carefully) of all government transaction: meaning that at minimum, you need to speak English in order to interact with government officials. 

FIFTEEN DOWN, ONE TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

Constitutional Amendment

Don't you remember from your diversity training that we don't want a "melting pot" but a "Salad Bowl" where we all celebrate each other's cultural beauty?

Shouldn't we force the rest of the world to accept our state of confusion and be happy with it?

Lysdexics Untie!

We can send man to the moon but --

"We can send man to the moon but we can't (fill in the blank)" as the liberal mantra goes. Germany recently built a seven mile fence in weeks to protect Bush from protestors that proved very effective. We've spent six years building a fence on our southern border and we're finally up to (drum roll) "seven miles". Only 700+ more to go. A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. We all know that from "1984". Even conservatives have heard "a wall can't work" so many times that most now accept it as the truth. It is not the truth. The Berlin Wall worked for 30 years with people risking all to flee from a brutal tyranny that was not anywhere comparable to living in Mexico. Unfortunately, it was almost 100% effective.  Our government has no interest in anything other than open borders and citizenship for all who want it. The reasons why some want this are clear (more votes and more victims equals more power) but, for those we thought really cared for our country, it is baffling. We have no political party on the side of America. How did that happen?

But, we don't need a wall,

But, we don't need a wall, but rather enforcement of existing laws. I guarantee you that if the wall is constructed (it's really a fence in most places) that those that defeat it's purpose will not be prosecuted by the Federal government. It's all an illusion.

We need both. Enforcement is

We need both. Enforcement is the priority, but without a barrier to stem the flood, enforcement is a finger in the dike (no innuendo intended for those with sewer minds ;-)~ ...).

Eliminating the hiring of illegals goes hand-in-hand with prohibiting social assistance. Dry up the money and entitlements and you dry up the incentive to come here. Plug the remaining reasons for illegal entry with a barrier and effective law enforcement, and the problem effectively goes away, and, I predict, within 5 years.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

But that's not gonna happen

But that's not gonna happen. The legislation that's touted is just another example of past legislation where enforcement of the law is ignored. The Federal government has demonstrated gross negligence on this issue.

"But, we don't need a

"But, we don't need a wall, but rather enforcement of existing laws. I
guarantee you that if the wall is constructed (it's really a fence in
most places) that those that defeat it's purpose will not be prosecuted
by the Federal government. It's all an illusion."

We DO need a wall, and we DO need enforcement. What your arguing, even though you may be right, is a different issue.

Enforcement alone isn't the solution either. You don't really think every illegal here has a job, do you? And then you have the ones who come here illegally just to have a kid that will instantly be an American citizen, and, as such, qualifies for every benefit and entitlement that you and I do. A wall/fence will stem that tide.

In the end, it doesn't matter what you or I believe. The reality is nothing worthwhile will be done to address this issue. Either the status quo will be maintained, which sucks, or congress will make the problem worse by "solving" it, lol.

I wonder if they're gonna throw in free Spanish lessons for all Americans when they pass the new legislation?

They already do free lessons,

They already do free lessons, you didn't take Spanish in high school?

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

Hey, did you hear about the

Hey, did you hear about the Mexican plan to put a man on the moon?

They're building a tunnel -- starting just inside the border in Tijuana.

You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll talk jive! Just check out my latest YouTube video Hillary Clinton Talks Jive

.....about the Mexican plan t

.....about the Mexican plan to put a man on the moon?

So getting people into San Fransisco has been their plan all along.  :-)

Build the damn fence, George!

Mark, NBers - I am from--

Mark, NBers  - I am from--Boston. I am a longtime admirer of Jeff's. I admire his courage  being the only conservative on such a weasely liberal newspaper. All that said, I had occasionally sent complimentary emails to Jeff and received nice responses. When the ICE raided the New Bedford factory and arrested numerous illegals, Jeff wrote a very sympathetic article favorable to the illegals. The reaction to "families torn apart", somehow changed Jeff's usual writings. I sent an email telling him that for the first time I disagreed with him. I sent him the URLs of studies done by CIS, FAIR, and some articles from NRO discussing the long term negative impact of illegal immigration. I did not, on that occasion receive a nice response, I did not receive any response. An otherwise highly talented journalist has succumbed to sympathetic reactions rather than to conservative attitudes and damage to America.  After years of following his columns, I have been turned off by this reaction. Jeff, if you really want a cause to cry about, take a trip to Darfur.

It is impossible for the United States or any country to have such a massive inflow of immigrants over a short period of time and maintain their  principles and practices. Eurabia is one example, Mexifornia is another. Anyone who denies that our countries ethos is being unalterably changed to that of a second world country is either blind or a liar!

Once again I recommend that everyone read Fredo Arias-King's article at CIS.

A little long but worth the read.

Here 

If we had a "wall"

If we had a "wall" like the one seperating the two Koreas and enforced the same, I guarentee that the flow of illegals would slow to a trickle through Mexico.  Even with a really good wall it would slow down the entry quite a bit.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.

Dang! A topic tailor-made

Dang! A topic tailor-made for Tumbler.... and he's gone!