Hitchens Tears Apart Hedges in Debate on War and Religion

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A battle of wits between two men named Christopher took place in Berkeley, California, on May 24. Unfortunately, one contestant came embarrassingly unequipped, so much so that by the end, he chose to not even respond.

Break out the cashews and your favorite libation, sports fans, because this debate between former New York Times Pulitzer Prize winner Chris Hedges, and the never at a loss for words Christopher Hitchens was one for the ages.

The following video is an edited compilation of key moments as prepared by our friend at Zombietime (h/t Allah). What follows is ZT’s transcript of this video. However, the reader is highly encouraged to view all of the videos of this event created for your viewing pleasure:

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CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS: The decline -- not to say the moral eclipse -- of the secular left has just been illustrated on this very platform by someone, who makes excuses for suicide murder and tries to trace them to a second-rate sociology.

[…]

HITCHENS: But, to what I think is the hidden agenda of the question: 'Is George Bush on a Christian crusade in Iraq and Afghanistan?' Obviously not, obviously not. Anyone who's studied what's happening in either of those countries now knows that the whole of American policy -- and by the way a lot of your own future, ladies and gentlemen -- is staked on the hope that federal secular democrats can emerge from this terrible combat. We can protect them and offer them help while they do so. We know that they're there, that we are -- I've met them, I love them, they're our friends. Every member of the 82nd Airborne Division could be a snake-handling congregationalist, for all I know, but these men and women, though you sneer and jeer at them, and snigger when you hear applause and excuses for suicide bombers -- and you have to live with the shame of having done that -- these people are guarding you while you sleep, whether you know it or not. And they're also creating space for secularism to emerge, and you better hope that they are successful.

CHRIS HEDGES: I feel like I should be reading Kipling's White Man's Burden.

Audience: Laughter.

HITCHENS: What you mean is you wish you had read it.

[…]

HITCHENS: It's exact equivalent of the evil nonsense taught by Hedges and friends of his, who say the suicide bombers in Palestine are driven to it by despair. Have you read the manifestos of these suicide bombers? Have you seen the videos they make? Have you seen the manifestos they put out? The propaganda that they generate? These are not people in despair. These are people in a state of religious exultation. Who are promised everything. Who are in a state of hope. Who are in a state of adoration for their evil mullahs. And for their filthy religion. It's this that makes them think they have the right to kill others while taking their own lives. If despair among Palestinians was enough to create psychopathic criminal behavior, there's been enough despair for a long time, and enough misery to go around. It is to excuse the vicious, filthy forces of Islamic jihad to offer any other explanation but that it is their own evil preaching, their own vile religion, their own racism, their own apocalyptic ideology that makes them think they have the right to kill everyone in this room, and go to paradise as a reward. I won't listen, nor should you, to anyone who euphemizes or excuses this evil wicked thing.

[…]

HITCHENS: Religion consists now, we find, no longer of moral absolutes. It used to be, when I debated with religious types, they would say, 'Yes, circumcision is good; masturbation is bad. We know this, because God tells us so. Hacking of the genitals of a child with a sharp stone is divine; touching them with a hand -- not so great.' We know -- so we knew where we were. We were absolute. Now [gesturing towards Chris Hedges] it's all relative. Now it's all completely relative. It's made up a la carte and cherry-picked by mediocre pseudo-intellectuals who want you to believe that the following thing that would have happened -- in the year, in the month of the year that the liberation of Iraq took place, that finally, after an endless thesaurus of United Nations resolutions condemning every aspect of its regime, that Iraq was free from the proprietorship of Saddam Hussein -- that was March, 2003 -- do you know what would have happened in April, 2003? Iraq was going to be the chair of the United Nations Special Committee on Disarmament. Some people think that would have been a better outcome. More humane, more legal, less troubling, altogether more dealable with. Just as Iran and Libya have just been re-elected to that very Committee on Disarmament at the United Nations. I ask you: You pick that kind of relativism, you'll also find you're dealing with a very surreptitious form of absolutism, which is only capable of describing as fascistic relatively comical forces (who I've denounced up- and downhill all my life in the United States), but cannot use the word totalitarianism about the religion that actually conducts jihad, actually organizes totalitarianism, actually inflicts misery, pain, unemployment, and despair upon millions of people, and then claims what it has done as the license for suicide and murder. A perfect picture [gesturing towards Chris Hedges] has been given to you of the cretinous relationship between sloppy moral relativism, half-baked religious absolutism, and the journalism that lies in between. Thank you.

MODERATOR: Chris Hedges? [Inviting him to respond.]

HEDGES: [Waves his hand, to indicate 'No more.']

Amazing. Hedges was so destroyed he couldn’t even respond.

Game, set, and match to Hitchens.

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.


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Oh wow, I can't wait to see h

Oh wow, I can't wait to see how some people here react to this. A story about an atheist, that shows the atheist as the smart person.

<insert something clever>

Well, if you're nonbiased the

Well, if you're nonbiased then you give the hat tip to Hitchens.  I am a Christian and give the tip to him.  I'm not sure if you think people will react and think that they have to side with Hedges.   One thing I will admit about Hitchens is that he seems non biased.  He is an atheist and I don't agree with him on his portrayal of religion, but I don't classify him as a biased person.  Penn and Teller are atheists and don't seem to have high opinions of religion, but their expose they did on PETA on the show "BS" was absolutely brilliant.  If you want to see a classic portrayal of PETA I would strongly suggest watching their expose.  There are many posters who post on here who are atheists or who don't seem to have strong religous beliefs that I respect.  Unsane is one who comes to mind.  He and I wouldn't agree on much if it came to a topic of religion, but other than that we have a lot in common.  So I don't know if you're trying to say that persons of Faith can't recognize if an atheist makes a good point that we can't give them the hat tip or not or what, but in my opinion if a person seems unbiased and makes good points then give them the hat tip when they make a good point. 

"I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane"  Waylon Jennings

Thank you for taking the ti

Thank you for taking the time to make a coherent, reasoned responce. My point is that Newsbusters has more than its fair share of, what I consider, pushy Christians.  People who feel the need to push the scripture into every story, no matter how much of a stretch it is to wedge it in there.

I was expecting to wake up this morning and see Book Name, Chapter:Verse all over this.  I'm glad I was wrong.  Who knows, maybe later they'll show up.

<insert something clever>

Book, Chapter, Verse

Well, liberals always get this wrong.

When you believe the Bible is the Word of God, you can't divorce it from your life or compartmentalize it.

Yes, you can't run around at work quoting the Bible instead of making a sentence related to the facts. However, when your on a blog and the subject is RELIGION it is incumbent upon the Believer to quote the scripture, rather than their own opinion which in the end means nothing.

It's like the argument that I shouldn't take my faith into the voting booth or that GWBUsh should pray about his decisions and feel that God is directing him.

Liberals and Atheists are "Scared" that someone might think they are doing God's Will, or as Hitchens states, are brazen enough to say they "KNOW" God's will.

To me it's scarier to have someone in the WH who fakes his Faith like BClinton did. Even though in the end I believe God is in control no matter who is running the country.

(The 1st Christians had to deal with a ruler that wanted to kill them)

It all goes to a lack of understanding.

As the night stalker said, there are many "atheists" who still "get it" in that they understand those of us with faith because in reality they have "faith" too. it's just their faith is not in Jesus.

You don't have to be liberal or atheist

exLib, you don't have to be liberal or atheist to dislike the aggressive proselytizing of some on this board.

I have frequently defended religious free speech and will continue to do so.  I would literally defend it to the death.  The so-called "separation of church and state" is a phony leftist concoction.  

But, having said that, I will also continue to speak out against the several posters here who constantly insert their religion into threads and who denigrate other faiths.

They are little different than the Politically Correct, Thought Police ideologues of the left.

You don't have to be libera

You don't have to be liberal or atheist to dislike the aggressive proselytizing of some on this board.

Testify, brother-man! It's nice to see that people get as annoyed as I do when Debra steps up to the pulpit.

bal, you write as if you've n

bal, you write as if you've never seen posts like mine.  It's not just Debra (by a long shot) and there have been many who object as I have.

P.S.  Your "testify brother-man" is an unnecessary snark.

You misunderstand me. I'm a

You misunderstand me. I'm agreeing with your post. There have been many posts like the ones you describe.

church wars

We should keep the religious battles off this site. We have more in common than different in most cases. Arguing over religion is a futile exercise, minds are rarely changed in the discussion.

there are battles, and there are

Listen, fla;

There are battles, and there are battles. Then there are great big LIES. --When the Big Lie is dusted off and sent into action, only a brave man battles back; with the truth. May the best man win.

the sad thing is tumbler is y

the sad thing is tumbler is you among others think you win with insults and with your own great big lies. There is no bravery when you are rude.

Florida is right...too many times the threads turn into holy wars, we have more in common then not...leave the holy wars for the crusaders.

It's serve & volley, cv

When the ball's in your court hit it and get ready for the next one.

A debate only becomes harsh when one party loses a point and starts showing his/her anger. Say what you will about me. I keep my posts entertaining. Too many like you are dead-serious and can't even laugh at yourselves. Learn not to flinch.

Its a tennis game I will avoi

Its a tennis game I will avoid in the future. I am comfortable in my faith, no matter what others say or think about it.

Tumbler - have you changed anyone's mind in you discussions on this site about religion?

please forgive me, cv

Asking pardon beforehand:

What is important about stroking your sensibilites ? You take your chances when you enter an open debate. Religion is only one of them.

Besides; I try not to cry when I get shafted. It means nothing in the long run, as long as I don't change the truth. If the truth doesn't change you, I feel sorry for you. Did you know that in Rome, 250 A.D. my paton saint Cecilia; a patrician;

Was commanded by Caesar to burn incense before the gods of his Empire. Guess what she told him?

"These gods you worship must have affected your eyesight. You don't seem to see they're made of stone." For this she was sentenced to die by the sword (they couldn't crucify her, a Christian; because she was of noble Roman blood. Well; when it came time to die, Cecilia became a Christian martyr. ON THE SPOT.

She could've shifted or distorted the truth, to save herself. But she was able to die joyfully for Christ, in His grace. That's exactly what I'll do, given a chance. I really can't worry about saving your feelings, or "winning" arguments. --I care about the truth.

Tumbler, I have quite the s

Tumbler, I have quite the sense of humor thank you very much, and your insults are not entertaining...they are rude and sometimes crude. Want to debate, fine I will play "tennis" but when it comes to being rude and crude...no thanks. You have yet to win any debate tumbler...you may claim yourself the winner, but I have yet to see you convince anyone of anything other than you being a jerk.

And when it comes to debating religion...can't debate it, because its based in faith. Can't prove religion. I have defended my religion from the likes of Debra in the sense I have stated she is not an authority of what I believe....but I have attacked her...not her religion.

The religious flame wars are annoying to most people here, because you can't debate faith and because its divisive...and we have more in common then different. If Glenn Beck can find common ground with Al Sharpton, then by all means we regular folks should unite with each other.

cv let's be frank

Here we are, you figure we should unite. I'm united enough, CV, without getting much pleasure out of debating with debra or with you. We agree to disagree, OK. But I don't agree you or Debra have the last word on God and religion. If that's your idea of common cause you can keep it.

If I insult you, it's a level playing field; I receive insults here every day. We must take what we can get in this life. Let's drop our replies and cheer up.

tumbler, you aren't under

tumbler, you aren't understanding.

I am not saying I have or Debra has the last word on God and religion, in fact I have in this thread said YOU CAN"T DEBATE RELIGION. I have never said everyone needs to join the same church either. Hence no one has the last word BUT GOD.

Things we have in Common: we both see religion as important...check

we both believe in God...check

we both try and live our religion as best we can...check

we both agree that it is good for the country if we are a moral people...check.

You see? Never said you have to agree with everything I believe to be correct...why is it that you and Debra can't get this? Stop being so black and white.

I am also refering to how you debate in general. You are rude and crude. You can make whatever excuse you want, but that doesn't make it OK. People have called me all kinds of names, big deal. Be a man, and stop whining, real men don't have to be rude, bullies are rude because they are weak. You never win a debate with insults and rudeness.

I gave you your say

OK, cv, and thank you chad.

I couldn't agree with you on all points, but thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a quiet, considerate poster. You'll see.

But I shouldn't be asked to give up a freedom. You speak if you like; so do I. Don't try to muzzle anyone, and not me, for starters. Ciao, no hard feelings.

It's a conservative site wh

It's a conservative site where conservative values can be discussed. If the topic is of faith based orientation then it's relevant. No, I agree, it does not belong on every post but it is appropriate on many. To unilaterally dismiss it is foolish and selfish.

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Tumbler and TWC

There is a time and place for it, yes. On some threads it is part of the discussion, but too often threads, that have nothing to do with religion, degrade into a church war argument.

not only the faithful do it

It's very true; we shouldn't carry anything to extremes.

For instance, during many of our painful and protracted arguments about illegal immigration, for some reason the main subject was put on a back burner. The subject then hotly pursued became Moi. (How to shut that guy up; or beat him up, or sic the dogs on him !) Some of those threads were LONGGGG! And Tumbler was too dumb to quit, so they came at him in relays ! Ha Ha!

RJ WWBD

What Would Buddha Do

Jack Kevorkian - America's Economist

Caution - offends zebras

Tumbler, be careful.  A double lined horse is unstabled in all his ways.

Jack Kevorkian - America's Economist

Carl, your assessment is spot

Carl, your assessment is spot-on. In my opinion, Hitchens is an unmistakably brilliant man with a rare ability to put his thoughts into coherent dialogue. Even though I, too, am a Christian, I have to respect a man who can discuss the concept of religion, but then weigh the moral severity of Iraq on a completely different intellectual plane. Whether he likes Bush or not, he knows where the incentives align in the end. This is the ironic topic we constantly address in NB – why liberals side with hardline extremists that openly condemn the left’s ideals as blasphemous, all in the pursuit of a narrow-minded grab for political power. Hitchens chooses not to be mentally lazy and go lock-step in line with the default position.

Compare him to a guy like Andrew Sullivan, who is fairly articulate and happens to share a similar “paradox” - but in a different manner - as a Catholic homosexual. I sympathize with Sullivan’s internal conflict with religion, but his short-sightedness regarding the topic of national defense leaves me questioning his logic. So if forced to choose sides, I would easily align with a non-believing Hitchens rather than a believing Sullivan.

Oh, I don't know...I always g

Oh, I don't know...I always get a kick out of some wiseacre Leftists trying to use religion to convince me Socialist approaches (for example) have some sort of religious/Biblical sanction, and then see their reaction when I tell them it doesn't mean anything to me due to my atheism.  It ruins the Left's belief in a monolithic Right.  

TWELVE DOWN, FOUR TO GO...(until the SPURS' FOURTH RING!!!)

Do I detect a smirk in that c

Do I detect a smirk in that comment? It's understandable. Not all believers are terribly "smart" in the worldly sense, and they don't have to be.  God doesn't judge us based on how well we did on the SATs or whether we got into Harvard Law. At the same time, I would note that there are some terribly "smart" people who are not atheists, including Christopher Hitchens' brother, Peter Hitchens, as well as that old fuddy-duddy Albert Einstein. He was pretty "smart" and he believed in a God. ...   When it comes to a debate between Hitchens and Hedges, Hitchens clearly has the advantage because Hedges' hostility to traditional Christianity clouds his anlayses and his judgment.  And when it comes to Islam, I think Hitchens makes many valid points, and he has done so in other debates (see You Tube for the actual debates)----that the Muslim world has a history of unprovoked violence against the West.  That the West fought back, e.g., the Crusades, is rational and defensible.  ... At the same time, Hitchens' hostility toward all religions, particularly Christianity, clouds his judgment as well.  He is consistently contradictory.  Hitchens contends that the ideas he supports---rule of law, private property, free expression, individual liberty, etc.---somehow sprang out of a secular humanist current that existed somehow outside of Christian (and earlier Judaic--Old Testament) parameters.  But it is clear that most of the freedoms we take for granted (and the subsequent prosperity, too) in the Western world developed from Christianity. Hitchens tries to gloss over all this as if it somehow happened differently because some of the Founding Fathers, for instance, were deists, or that some of the French Revolutionaries were atheists/materialsts.  He misses the forest for the trees.  The "freedom" and prosperity that Hitchens supports were all made possible because Christianity and Christendom set the foundation for them, and it carried it along (warts and all, and often sloppily) up through the present day. Hitchens may believe there is no God but he cannot deny that many of the liberties he enjoys today are the result of 2,000 years of Christianity, with good backing from the Ten Commandments.

Well said, Mike. As the ver

Well said, Mike. As the very smart St. Paul once wrote:

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" I Corinthians 1:20

OIFveteran

I have almost a heroic gladness that Christopher Hitchens has emerged to take on his old comrades, and expose their ridiculous lechery in loving and excusing the Islamic enemy of everyone.
He is a genius, and a wonderful speaker and top of the line debater, I really cannot say I have experienced or seen another with such skill and recall and application of points. Indeed, in addition to all of that, he has a set of long knives and is more than happy to use them at any moment and with startling and judicious effect.
This man Hitchens housed Salmon Rushdie when the Fatwah was(is) upon his head, in his own home, in DC, displaying a lot more than wordy intellectualism with a biting and frighteningly cogent sting, travelled to Iraq many times without endless firepower surrounding him, certifying his credentials against attack by the anti-war crowd, and I have found him to be the last vestige of a REAL LIBERAL as perhaps the liberals that were around before I was born like to in nostalgia claim they currently "represent". They do not. Women, children, and their fellow countrymen they have abandoned, and embraced a fantasy certainly as large as Hitchens considers religions to be.
Well, Hitchens R-E-P-R-E-S-E-N-T-S, and in turn humiliates the crumbling and pathetic new progressive left's diabolic and distortedly micharacterized stabbing of the hand that feeds them, namely the USA and western ideals. He absolutely grinds them into a discarded shame of muddled putridity.
I'm a huge fan.
Rarely do I think it would be an honor to shake a man's or an undeserved treat to have a talk in person with the same, but Hitchens bears that distinction, as does at least one other, Robert Novak.
Three cheers for a brave intellectual giant who has some glaring faults, is more than happy to openly admit and embrace them, and go far beyond the weight they carry and breach the lies and inconsistent tomfoolery of the very drivel that issues from his former associates now deranged by their own failing prospectus, and whom no doubt never were deserving of his alliance in the years prior, a truth to which he has certainly become overwhelmingly aware of.

Good job Mr. Hitchens.

In my opinion, the debate il

In my opinion, the debate illustrated the void of rational thought that exist in liberal media, which Hedges aptly represents. Hitchens is delightful to listen to even if I disagree with his positions, thus I can respect him.

An intellectually honest soci

An intellectually honest socialist--wrong on God (and socialism) but right on jihad and the intellectually (and actually) dishonest left.  He probably won't be received by the mass number of takers (or would-be takers) in this country whose sole interest in my view is what can they take from me and you.  Lies don't bother them much and that's why I wish Mr. Hitchens good luck on the circuit that takes him to places like Berkley...being intellectually honest won't attract the vast majority of our leftists enemies.

Liberalism is a convenient lie.

Atheism

Atheism is a religion of sorts (belief system) as well as modern liberalism (now secular socialism). Can one prove there is no God? Can one prove that secular socialism is the best form of government? NOT to each. Its faith alone. They do go together like eggs and ham though.

Doug Schexnayder, Ph.D.

(theconservativecrawfish)

Alright, the first slur aga

Alright, the first slur against Atheism. Atheism and liberalism go together like eggs and ham. Does the good Dr. have any empirical evidence that more Atheists are liberals and hold liberal ideology than conservatives? Maybe some census data?

<insert something clever>

OIF, not all liberals are ath

OIF, not all liberals are atheists but all atheists will lean toward liberalism. That's an axiomatic truth. The attempt to remove God is a necessity to assuage the conscience of the liberal. Even the atheistic "conservative" will be conservative for the fiscal / small gov't benefits of the party's belief system. Socially they'll want to be left to their own desires. Either way liberalism or atheism is about SELF, SELF, SELF!

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Very high quality articulatio

Very high quality articulation - i give it a 10!

Let's see. Atheism presup

Let's see. Atheism presupposes human intellect is infallible enough to determine for certitude that there is NO God. As opposed to agnosticism which is a little humbler and merely states that God's existence is neither provable nor disprovable.

Given that, atheism is a religion, but one wherein the worshiper and the object of worship are the same. It is man worshiping his own intellect, reason, will, and sovereignty. It is man who sees himself as omniscent enough to determine the nonexistence of a Deity.

it makes sense to them ken...

it makes sense to them ken...

Religion or Spiritual?

Seems to me that folks are confused about Hitchens' philosophy. He's not a supporter of organized religion, obviously, but appears to me to be quite spiritual. In my view, he's got a lot of the criticisms of organized religion spot on but he doesn't aggravatingly generalize likes Hedges does.

Focus on Hedges. He's the enemy of both religious and spiritual people because he is apparently unable to differentiate between the two while Hitchens is not..

Bill W.

Indeed one should note his admonishment of the babbling liberal boobs in the crowd where Hitchens excused the Military's perchance " religious snake handlers" in favor of their task stated as currently being delivered - the shielding of the very tards that cry out against them, and then heaped shame upon them for their actions and declared they have been saved by the same wether they admit it or not.
I think that ended the idea that Hitchens is against the religious when they happen to be on a mission that is aligned with the expansion of the space where freedom and democracy may take hold. In his sting against the rabble, he declared his own understanding that religion is not always on the wrong side of history.

Chris Hitchens ... A hero of

Chris Hitchens ... A hero of mine I hate to love ...

Same here..I love seeing him

Same here..I love seeing him flip off Bill Mahler audience in a youtube video.It was so cool.
As far as his belief or lack of that is his buisness.I believe but that is my buisness.How others believe is theirs...oh well

drill and well... I agree

drill and well...

I agree with both of your posts, I forgot about the flippin' off Maher.

That was priceless...

So was this venue with leaving Hedges speechless.

Yup!I would of paid money to

Yup!I would of paid money to see that.

My Take

A perfect picture [gesturing towards Chris Hedges] has been given to you of the cretinous relationship between sloppy moral relativism, half-baked religious absolutism, and the journalism that lies in between. Thank you.

I only watched the compilation video and did not get a good sense of the topic of the debate. The topic was not the Iraq war, Islamo Fascism, or political policy. It was a debate on " ... over the value of religious faith". Once again the fumbling over language as they look at 'religious faith'. As I said in the past, religion is man’s attempt to better understand and adhere to his faith, while faith is fundamental belief system. Christianity, Islam, and Atheism are faiths. Southern Baptist, Wahabi, and Scientologists are examples of religions applying doctrine to better understand the faiths in the previous sentence. No one says that a Southern Baptist is the same as a Catholic, but they both adhere to key beliefs to be considered part of the Christian faith. I am certain that Hitchens would not say that he belonged to the Scientologist group, but they are both essentially atheists.

So if the topic was the value of religious faith Hitchens failed to make a valid point. What he showed was that some religions are incredibly flawed and did not address faith at all. In the quote below Hitchens throws three issues our and applies them to Hedges.

A perfect picture [gesturing towards Chris Hedges] has been given to you of the cretinous relationship between sloppy moral relativism, half-baked religious absolutism, and the journalism that lies in between. Thank you.

The problem here is that this speaks to nothing in the topic of the debate. More than that, it ties relativism and absolutism in a quick snarky put down.

Now I thought Hitchens hit a home run in talking about the threat of terrorism and the religious base for what is going on today. I also think he made a fair comment on religion. He did not address faith. If C.S Lewis were to debate Mr. Hitchens it would have been a big win for Lewis. Everyone has faith in something and religiously apply doctrinal principles to practicing that faith. This includes Atheists. In this and according to the topic of the debate in hand, Hitchens did not prove himself as a debater. He is a good, snarky pundit and right on the mark about the war on terror

Any Pulitzer for Hedges is an

Any Pulitzer for Hedges is another indication that that Prize is awarded for PC reasons and not for intelligence, writing skills, or coherent thinking.

Hitchens is a Heavyweight and Hedges is punching above his weight at the Bantam level.