On the top right of Friday’s front page of The New York Times is a story headlined "Immigration Bill Provisions Gain Wide Support In Poll: Majority Favors Path to Legal Status for Illegal Aliens." Reporters Julia Preston and Marjorie Connelly wrote the story in a way that framed the poll like a memo to Congress, saying "Please pass the bill, the polling water’s warm."
The reporters claim the American public is "taking a pragmatic stand on a divisive issue," which could be interpreted to mean they change their answers based on how the poll question is phrased. It's so divisive individual voters have two different opinions depending on the pollster's lingo. But Preston and Connelly began by insisting: "As opponents from the right and left challenge an immigration bill before Congress, there is broad support among Americans – Democrats, Republicans, and independents alike – for the major provisions in the legislation."
The Times illustrates four poll questions with pie graphs, and three of them are written in softball terms for immigration-bill proponents:
– "Would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?" Sixty-six percent said favored, 30 percent said opposed.
– "What should happen to illegal immigrants who have been in the U.S. for at least two years?" Sixty-two percent agreed they "should be allowed to apply for legal status," while 33 percent said they "should be deported."
– "Should illegal immigrants get a renewable visa if they pay a fine, have a clean record, and pass a background check?" Unsurprisingly, after loading up all these conditions, 68 percent favored the visa, and only 27 percent opposed it.
This a bit like asking the public if they would support speeding 30 miles over the posted speed limit if the driver otherwise "pays a fine and has a clean record." This idea of a "law-abiding illegal" -- as Greg Pollowitz found one Washington reporter recently posed at a press conference -- is a little nonsensical.
The less favorable questions for the immigration-bill supporters were illustrated on page A-16, or at least one was less favorable: "How serious a problem do you think the issue of illegal immigration is right now?" Sixty-one percent said it’s "very serious," 30 percent said "serious," and only 6 percent said " not serious." Two other numbers that would concern the amnesty proponents arrive in the text inside the paper:
– "[Fifty-nine] percent said illegal immigrants should be considered for citizenship only after legal immigrants who have played by the rules."
– "In the poll, 75 percent of those who responded favored tougher penalties for employers of illegal workers, and 82 percent said the federal government should do more to reinforce the border."
But there are other questions in the survey (posted in PDF format here) that Preston and Connelly did not include at all in their story.
– "Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the issue of immigration?" (27 percent favorable, 60 percent unfavorable.)
– When given four policy priorities and asked to rank them, 56 percent chose action on the issue of "health insurance for all," while only 22 percent chose immigration.
– "Do you think illegal immigrants do more to strengthen the economy because they provide low-cost labor and they spend money, or do illegal immigrants weaken the economy because they don’t all pay taxes, but use public services?" (22 percent said do more to strengthen economy, and 70 percent said weaken.)
– Should illegal immigrants be prosecuted and deported for being in the U.S. illegally, or shouldn’t they? (69 percent said they should be prosecuted, 24 percent said they should not.)
The last two answers seem to contradict the answers to other questions that the Times highlighted. On page one, they highlighted that 62 percent didn’t agree with deporting illegal aliens after two years, which clashes a bit with the general deportation question.
On page 16, the Times highlighted that when asked if "most recent immigrants to the United States contribute to this country, or do most of them cause problems," 57 percent said "contribute," and only 28 percent said "cause problems." This clashes with the strengthen/weaken the economy question. But notice that "do they contribute" question says "most recent immigrants" without making any legal/illegal distinction, and that it can seem suggestive of a racist attitude (most immigrants "cause problems," not most immigrants "contribute less than they benefit.")
It might seem a bit comical, but when the Times asked the "do they contribute" inquiry a different way, and asked respondents "Do you think most other people would say" recent immigrants contribute or cause problems, 32 percent selected "contribute" and 53 percent picked "cause problems." That could either be interpreted as respondents trying not to sound racist, while secretly harboring doubts about immigration in general, or respondents think they are high-minded, but all their fellow citizens are more pejorative or xenophobic than they are.
To their credit, Preston and Connelly balance a contention that illegals have paid "as much as $7 billion to the Social Security Administration while claiming no benefits because of their illegal status" – which seems to preclude the idea that some illegals collect Social Security by lying about their immigration status – they do quote Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation and his finding that "low-skilled illegal immigrant families cause an overall fiscal drain." The Times had no polling question about the taxpayer costs of immigration.
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Tim, Given the fact that th
May 25, 2007 - 13:47 ET by Dave RTim,
Given the fact that the results of this "poll" are directly opposite the results of all of the other polls I have seen regarding this issue, I have to wonder;
Was this "poll" perchance taken in tumbler's back-yard?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-Neal Boortz
Senators say constituents jamming lines
May 25, 2007 - 13:58 ET by RJAnd both Dem and Rep Senators say they've been surprised at how constituents have been jamming their lines with negative reactions.
Kinda disputes the Times article. This bill is an abomination that sells the Republicans and the country down the river.
RJ,LOL-That's because those
May 25, 2007 - 14:07 ET by Dave RRJ,
LOL-That's because those same politicians have been spending way too much time in Tumbler's back-yard, too. That is why those of us who have written them expressing our derision for this hideous "reform" bill keep getting responses like this from one of my two senators who best be updating their resume's right about now:
Dear Mr. R****** :
Thank you for contacting my office regarding the current debate on immigration reform in the United States Senate . I appreciate hearing from you and appreciate the opportunity to respond.
Illegal immigration is the most important domestic issue facing our country today. I have long been an advocate for two key principles: border security first and no special pathway to citizenship. T hese two core principles are non-negotiable . With that in mind, I am reserving judgment until we complete the debate , all amendments to the bill have been added and I see the finalized bill. I look forward to the coming debates, and as we continue to move forward in this process I will keep your thoughts in mind.
Thank you again for contacting me. Please visit my webpage at http://isakson.senat... for more information on the issues important to you and to sign up for my e-newsletter.
Sincerely,
Johnny Isakson
United States Senator
For future correspondence with my office, please visit my web site at
http://isakson.senate.gov/contact.cfm
_________________________________________________________
Seriously, though, those clowns at the NYT must think we are all as stupid as they are.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-Neal Boortz
well, you got something right
May 25, 2007 - 14:22 ET by tumblerDave R,
Swell guess. I live close by Napa Valley. The grapes there depend largely on hired help of Mexican descent. To try to estimate just how many of these large numbers have documentation would be kind of daring. But there are swarms of hard-working farm peones in that town. They're actually indispensable to the wine-growers of this region.
What's not to like about it ?
It's America, our beloved land of the Free. And; hear me out: I never promoted an amnesty. if it happens it happens. But; the other extreme-- alienating all our country's Mexican-Americans and hispanic-Americans, by inciting hatred against Mexicans who cross over illegally; demonizing and belittling them and their country of origin in public displays of anger -- Is not the way we'll succeed in other upcoming national elections. Dick Morris explains why. I agree with his appraisal of this HUGE problem for all American conservatives of good will.
We'll hand America over to the Kennedy-Pelosi-Reids and Rosie O'Donnells by disparaging the fastest-growing minority voting bloc over this issue. I want that voting population on OUR SIDE. You've been warned, Pal.
"I want that votin
May 25, 2007 - 14:31 ET by ckc1227"I want that voting population on OUR SIDE. You've been warned, Pal."
That's the difference between many of us and you: We don't sell out our priniciples just to get votes. By selling out to this ridiculous bill, it's no longer our side, it's their side.
Dick Morris?
May 25, 2007 - 14:37 ET by RJDick Morris? That guy who has the best interest of the conservatives at heart? Well, ok, then.....
Read it before you have the cow
May 25, 2007 - 14:41 ET by tumblerGo see his column. If he makes you puke, say so. But he's exactly right about this. Or is your taste running to Pat Buchanan all over again ?
Please don't make assumptions
May 25, 2007 - 14:59 ET by RJPlease don't make assumptions. I've never been a Buchanan backer.
As for Morris, sorry, but I'm not impressed by the opinion of a liberal, morally bankrupt ex-Clinton aide who is wrong at least as often as he's right. Instead, I'll agree with the majority of conservative pundits who say this bill is a sellout and that if it passes Republicans won't win many national elections for a long, long time.
Studies have said that this group of immigrants will not swing to Republicans no matter what happens. In fact, President Bush has tried his best to pander to them and yet if he were up for election, he wouldn't win their votes. Beyond that, I believe it's morally wrong to cheat the immigrants who have been trying to get into the country legally.
your principles ?
May 25, 2007 - 14:38 ET by tumblerPrinciples ? Stop; don't make me laugh.
You throw away another election bawling about your principles and all you'll prove is you're stupid. This is LIFE; we need conservatives in office; unless you admire Nancy Pelosi's and Harry Reid's principles. Get the hispanic and Mexican American vote within our our range; do it by showing some damned respect for others; not squawking about them.
Most Mexicans (yes, illegals too) come over here CONSERVATIVES., not Liberals. This is an uncontestable truth.
"You throw away anothe
May 25, 2007 - 14:50 ET by ckc1227"You throw away another election bawling about your principles and all
you'll prove is you're stupid. This is LIFE; we need conservatives in
office;"
Earth to tumbler the retard: why do we need conservatives in office if they're going to act and vote like liberals?
"Most Mexicans (yes, illegals too) come over here CONSERVATIVES., not Liberals. This is an uncontestable truth."
Here's another "uncontestable truth" for you: the fastest growing demographic for unwed mothers/out of wedlock births is Hispanics. So much for those Conservative values.
tumbler, stumbler, bumbler
May 25, 2007 - 17:30 ET by DontFeedTheTrollstumbler Says: do it by showing some damned respect for others
Here's how tumbler shows respect for others,
he uses ethnic slurs.
How nice.
D
A day without NewsBusters is like a day without sunshine.
Whether or not they are conse
May 25, 2007 - 18:19 ET by RESTLESS 1Whether or not they are conservative or liberal when they get here is of no importance to me. If they will throw away votes to a party that agrees with their principles on one issue only, and I'm not sure about that one (immigration), due to loyalty to another country, then we don't need them.
Most of the people you are talking about are second, third generation or older. It seems to me that they had better get their allegiances straight.
Most Hispanics who are here legally are against ILLEGAL immigration as well.
Dave R---I'm whichoo---
May 25, 2007 - 14:36 ET by misterbillDave R---I'm whichoo---I don't want a continued invasion of the the USA. We let in a large number of temporary workers every year. One of the debate points I hear (which makes me gag!) is that we have a 4.7% unemploment rate--we need workers. No, we don't! When we are at 0%, then we need workers. 4.7% is more than 7 million people. The raid at the chicken plant in Texas has proven that there are many Americans ready to fill the jobs when they are not being pushed aside by employers who are greedy.
And again--the 2006 unemployment rate in Mexico is 3%. That really shows you how reliable that number is!!!!
Of course it's 3%. They're al
May 25, 2007 - 18:23 ET by RESTLESS 1Of course it's 3%. They're all over here.
Senitors Supprised
May 25, 2007 - 15:07 ET by PAPA LOf course they are supprised.........they haven't been listening....... they won't have to listen after the next election, because those that vote for it will not be there!
I suggest the next group of new senators find a way to eliminate their retierment money, maybe for being incomptient boobs.
I haven't seen any polls on t
May 25, 2007 - 14:13 ET by mattmI haven't seen any polls on this...not that I look for polls very hard, since they're usually so bogus.
The worthlessness of this poll is clearly demonstrated in the fact that it shows the people disapprove of Bush's handling of the immigration issue, yet they apparently support exactly what he's favoring...i.e. a guest worker program.
Why do Mexicans need to come to the U.S.?
May 25, 2007 - 14:35 ET by RJExcellent analysis on why the U.S. has become a relief valve for Mexico and why the proposed immigration bill won't work:
"Mexico is a country rich with natural resources. With its wealth of petroleum, silver, copper, gold, lead, zinc, natural gas and timber, it has all the resources a country would need to keep it from becoming a destitute Third World country....so why do more Mexicans emigrate to the United States than die in Mexico each year?
"According to a recent report produced by the World Bank, a majority of the identifiable problems facing the Mexican economy are directly related to bureaucratic corruption."
"...they allow the corrupt special interest robber-barons to run roughshod over the Mexican economy, facilitating an economic environment that encourages the mass emigration of Mexican citizens to the United States.
"In essence, the Mexican government, through its lack of courage to engage in governmental and economic reforms, which would strengthen its economy to the benefit of its citizens, is exporting its most crucial economic problems -- unemployment and an impoverished citizen class -- to the United States."
More here:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200705/COM20070525a.html
"Sorry, R Jughead; i
May 25, 2007 - 14:54 ET by ckc1227"Sorry, R Jughead; it's a crock of BS. Why do youz guys always side with demagogues and liars ?"
What are you talking about? No one here is siding with you, lol. By the way, do you let your illegal employees have the weekend off for Memorial Day, and, if so, do they fly the Mexican flag?
Now, unrelated, but important: Rosie gone from the View.
Illegal Immigrants cause global warming. Build the wall to save the Earth. Don't we owe it to the children?
This was about '94 tumbler in
May 25, 2007 - 15:00 ET by bigtimerThis was about '94 and later tumbler in the great state of Calif. ....tell me what is much different now?
It is all the same goal now, some they have already obtained.
Subject: California the Hispanic State"You old white people. It is your duty to die."
HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT!Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston ! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . Through love of having children, we are going to take over. Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico , "The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."
Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas ; "We have an aging white America . They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shaking in their pants with fear. I love it."
Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to
non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California."
Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back." Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and
California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, " California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."
Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , "We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California ."
Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University ; "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . "
Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders. THE U.S . VS MEXICO :
On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts? It's called affirmative action or racial privilege.The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent. Recently, a vote was taken in the U.S. Congress to end this practice. It was defeated. Every single Democratic senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special privileges for Hispanic, Asian andAfrican immigrants. They were joined by thirteen Republicans. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly stated that they believe that massive immigration from countries like Mexico is good. They have also backed special privileges for these immigrants.Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.
DID YOU KNOW?:
Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?
According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia ,30% are still on welfare compared to 8% nationwideWall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.
Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."WHEN I WAS YOUNG:
When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island . They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture. They demand FREE heath care, Free education, Free Food, and want to PAY NO TAXES!
BT they act this way because--
May 25, 2007 - 15:22 ET by misterbillBT they act this way because--in America they get away with it. In Guatemala, Mexico, etc., they would be very quickly in jail or dead. I still get angry about the Post Office incident, the high school incident (both in Mexifornia) and the soccer game.
Why don't we line up thousands of protester and go to (e.g) Mexico city, waving the American flag and insisting that Mexico do something about their social programs and industry so that Mexicans do not have to flee to earn money.
RJ -- I think it's not just a lack of courage--
May 25, 2007 - 15:15 ET by misterbillRJ -- I think it's not just a lack of courage--as cited in the article--I believe it is a form of racial intolerance.I am open to input from anyone except you know who, but, I see many work groups at locations around Atlanta, and God forbid, I must be racially profiling but almost all of them are fairly short and somewhat dark-complected. I don't see any tall, Castilian types. Most of them, (and forgive me, I don't know if the word became a bigoted word in PC language) look to be mestizo. They are not being given the opportunities in Mexico as they have here. We are the dumping ground of the world. "Oh, send them to America, the liberals will see that they stay. It will give us here in Mexico another 50 years of raping the land and enriching ourselves. Hey, Jorge, send another couple of mill up to those latino advocate associations in the big American citeies. They will use the money to help the lowlifes here to stya in America." "Oh , yes, keep B---Sh-----g those Senators and Senor Bush. They all help too."
If Mexico developed their natural resourves. put more money into education, alot of these folks wouldn't have to risk their butts coming acros the border. rather, they would, as American tourists going south, be heading north, as tourists too!
PS Almost all I have come in contact with speak Spanish. They come through Mexico whether Mexican or not.
misterbill, the government calls them "OTMs"
May 25, 2007 - 15:24 ET by RJ"whether Mexican or not"
misterbill, the government calls them "OTMs"...Other Than Mexican. There's a huge underground railroad for people from all over the world who come in through our southern border. That our leaders don't protect the country there is in dereliction of their constitutional responsibilities.
As for Mexico, they have the resources to be a first world country. I've said before that only by significantly slowing entry of illegals here will the resulting internal pressure force their government to reform. The other thing that disgusts me is the massive amount of money we pour into Mexico to maintain the status quo.
yes, he's just the same misterboil
May 25, 2007 - 15:45 ET by tumblerOh my ! When you step in it, you do it hard. STILL A BIGOT,
as your longish, indecent post here shows.
tumb...I see you decided to a
May 25, 2007 - 15:50 ET by bigtimertumb...
I see you decided to avoid answering my longish post...
Says a lot about you....you did that about a year or more ago when I had facts and figures about the cost in Texas when it came to just hospitals with the illegals.
You always avoid facts right in front of your face when it comes to illegal immigrants.
hi, bigtimer
May 25, 2007 - 16:04 ET by tumblerHave I avoided your posts? Or are they too boring to answer ? If we count costs, do it honestly. There are costs for everything worth having.
As for me, I've gone on record many times saying I favor capture & deportation of illegal entrants. But I hate lies and object to racist hate speech. Those are the evils I always confront. I don't approve of illegal immigration. As for Texas; so what ? I'm in Califrnia. I've personally witnessed the evil done to poor peones by white supremacists and bigots. If your hospital is heaven on earth so what ? Poor people are treated at EVERY hospital in this country. Those patients who PAY give subsistence to the charity cases. You know; by paying through the nose, with insurance money. I saw the bills: $10 for two aspirins. $25 for a plastic bucket to vomit in. Why don't we complain about that ?
tumbler...answer the post..racist hate speech by mexicans
May 25, 2007 - 16:09 ET by bigtimertumbler, I am now talking about the above post I entered here awhile ago...just scroll upward and you will see RACIST HATE SPEECH....from MEXICANS in my home state...let alone their goals.
Tell me what you think of them since you now reside there.
dear bigtimer
May 25, 2007 - 16:16 ET by tumblerOK, I saw that. You used BOLD, and it's uncommonly long and stultifying; and I can't read it very well.
Yes; we have serious bigots and racketeers on both sides. I know these idiots are in it all to boost their careers, not in the interests of poor illegal aliens. Well, screw 'em.
I favor No Fence; simply enforcement; adding border patrol personnel; and jail terms for repeat offenders. I don't favor amnesty for anybody; just leave 'em alone. They're here; it's a fait accompli, we can live side by side with them. This is America; the land of opportunity. The Land of the Free.
and very importantly,
May 25, 2007 - 16:21 ET by tumblerBTW; I respect Tim Graham very much. I hope he doesn't take my commentary personally. I simply have my grain of sand to add here. We're all free to speak our minds. (Hearing some Bozoes here, you wouldnt think so. They would black-ball George Washington over a pet knee-jerk opinion of theirs.)
I don't favor amnesty for any
May 25, 2007 - 16:32 ET by bigtimerI don't favor amnesty for anybody; just leave 'em alone. They're here; it's a fait accompli, we can live side by side with them.
That is the problem tumb....they are here illegally...they are ILLEGAL...we are paying through the nose in more ways than one.
We most certainly should NOT just leave them alone.
La Raza and other groups have an agenda to take over portions of the west and eventually who knows what else....something must be done....NOW..the majority of the people are fed up tumbler...past fed up.
Btw...I could not help the bold, it was not done intentionally.
to all people of good will
May 26, 2007 - 14:53 ET by tumblerThey're here; it's a fait accompli, we can live side by side with them.
"That is the problem tumb....they are here illegally...they are ILLEGAL...we are paying through the nose in more ways than one. (Bigtimer) Illegal is in the eye of the law. In the opinion of a judge. Not by God carved in stone. If the mass deportation was feasible, we could likely push these folks out. It just ain't; and I thank God. Because doing it to all those people would place our nation historically in the category of heartless, perverse and wanked-out SELFISH as human beings. A nation of dirty basdards, worthy of the whole worlds' scorn. We're better than that.
"We most certainly should NOT just leave them alone." . . . . .That's YOUR miserable opinion. Are you then, the Wicked Witch of the North ? YES.
"La Raza and other groups have an agenda to take over portions of the west and eventually who knows what else....something must be done....NOW. the majority of the people are fed up tumbler...past fed up." YOU have been watching too many game videos. This drivel you're suggesting is dumb-@ss stupid. No entity can "take over" a thing. All those wackos would go straight to prison if a coup were ever attempted. You should know that. PLUS: YOU are not the "majority." You represent a fringe group of tub-thumping bigots.
In fact; the so-called La Raza has NO control over the rank and file Mexican-American, Hispanic-American OR --illegal aliens in our cities. A march through the streets is typical of rabble-rousers. It has NO shelf-life. No radical agenda lasts over a year or two. They must simply back off when the subpeonaes come calling; same as you an I do. I'm appalled at your hysteria and alarmist mentality. Are you off your meds ? Stop being a fool, bigtimer.
good gosh Eugene
May 26, 2007 - 15:06 ET byYou title a post to people of good will and include:
Are you then, the Wicked Witch of the North ? YES.
you're suggesting is dumb-@ss stupid.
Are you off your meds ? Stop being a fool, bigtimer.
Eugene, you want good will, show some good will. Who is supporting law-breaking here? Did not Jesus say Render to Cesaer (ie; follow the law)?
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
its also a land ruled by la
May 25, 2007 - 16:38 ET by Conservative Voiceits also a land ruled by law, and if we pick and chose which laws are ok to break, then all laws are ok to break.
Still not sure why you think a fence won't help...not sure why you think adding more guards would help...when our guards aren't willing to do their job when you get thrown into prison for 11 years for not properly filling out a report (give me a break). Whats the point of putting them in jail if you can stop them from coming over in the first place? You say on the one hand its the land of opportunity the land of the free and on the other you say we should throw them in jail if they are caught...doesn't sound too free to me. A fence that has security on it is very effective. The land of the free, doesn't mean its ok to steal, the land of opportunity doesn't mean its ok to steal. I am more than happy to make it easier to come here legally...(speak English, not have a criminal record, and be American, no hyphens please ).
Not putting up a fence is like sailing a sail boat with a hole on the bottom, and not plugging the hole. Pail water all you want, its still going to leak back in...putting that pail of water in a bucket (prison) not only is expensive and not effective your boat will sink faster.
Happy Friday CV, BTOne thing
May 25, 2007 - 16:46 ET byHappy Friday CV, BT
One thing they can do is to start hitting the employers with fines for hiring illegals, also follow up on the list of SSI numbers that are bogus. I know that there have been what 3 high profile cases in the past 3 months, No they need 3 a day! it could be self-funding.
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
EXACTLY, BOTG!
May 25, 2007 - 16:51 ET by RJEXACTLY, BOTG!
Enforce the laws! Enforce the laws! Enforce the laws!
Do what was promised in exchange for the LAST TWO AMNESTYS, and we won't need to do much of anything else.
Agreed, and they could enco
May 25, 2007 - 17:01 ET by Conservative VoiceAgreed, and they could encourage business to invest and create jobs in Mexico instead of China. We should charge Mexico for housing their citizens in our prisons for how much it costs us plus 10%, failure to pay means we send them to China or India.
We should build a wall...secure the wall with armed guards ( and pardon the ones we have unlawfully prisoned ). Make it not so profitable to hire illegals, and make the idea of prison be bad...and we might have a formula that will turn the tide.
Or we can simply invade Mexico and make it official.
And happy Friday to you too :)
Bingo CV!Happy Friday to all
May 25, 2007 - 17:16 ET by bigtimerBingo CV!
Happy Friday to all of you...thanks botg!
Bless our military past and present for this sacred week-end.
I'm checking my local paper f
May 25, 2007 - 17:22 ET byI'm checking my local paper for services at a local cemetary
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
wait wait wait
May 25, 2007 - 17:17 ET byOr we could just wait????
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
I need to do my homework on
May 25, 2007 - 17:35 ET by Conservative VoiceI need to do my homework on that...I tend to agree with unsane, but even Glenn Beck is concerned by it. I'm for free trade, but we first need to get control over our borders.
Tumbler is living on borowed time
May 25, 2007 - 15:59 ET by Dave Rtumbler,
Given that you were just reinstated to this site for the second time, I would suggest that you knock off the personal attacks and insults you've been spewing out here since you were allowed back in.
I'm not sure, but I would guess that you probaly long ago surpassed double-secret probation and are now on triple-secret probation and possibly heading for quadruple-secret probation.
You need to be doing it cleaner than the other guy, as most here have about had their fill of you and your ceaseless insults.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-Neal Boortz
dear dave r
May 25, 2007 - 16:06 ET by tumblerWhen I need your advice I'll ask for it. Here's some free advice for you:
Get a life.
It's odd they choose to leave
May 25, 2007 - 15:42 ET by UndercoverConservativeIt's odd they choose to leave out the prominent racial/tribal problems that allow certain "class" Mexicans to hold higher positions within the businesses that the government owns-why certain regions are abandoned or ignored while others receive the windfall benefits of the state's oil industry.
Why do you think the majority of illegals are not of the spanish-descended nobility, but the poorer and more desperate native descended variety?
I noticed that, too, UC
May 25, 2007 - 16:01 ET by RJI noticed that, too, UC. I've read elsewhere that Mexico is highly stratified, and that the ruling class treats the rest like something out of Medieval times. Of course, that makes the answer to your rhetorical question obvious.
Further, those who do come here tend to be less educated, less skilled types more likely to depend on government assistance, and therefore more likely to vote Democrat.
oleaginous Mexican sons of Spaniards and French
May 25, 2007 - 18:58 ET by Ten7sSome use technical poly-sci jargon to obfuscate the political and economic reality, but its really just a defacto aristocracy in Mexico. The only time you see the oleaginous Mexican sons of Spaniards and French in relation to illegal aliens/immigration is when they're on TV telling us how good it is for America. In reality, its NOT good for ANY of the related parties, but its damn convenient for the Mexican Aristocrats who get to push their problems off on us.
Ten7s...Screw the Mexican Ari
May 25, 2007 - 19:08 ET by Clear thinkerTen7s...
Screw the Mexican Aristocrats, this is still our country, not theirs!
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877
Yep, and America's starting t
May 25, 2007 - 19:23 ET by Ten7sYep, and America's starting to get stratified too. The people who don't care, don't care b/c they live in gated-communities or jet from megalopolis to metropolis above the fray. And/or they are getting wealthy on serf labor and saving money on cheap servants while pushing the economic and social costs onto average Americans.
Clinton [Bill] supported Bush on immigration
May 25, 2007 - 15:23 ET by Gary HallTim. In regards to this result:
One would have to wonder how the poll results would be different here, if the media had fairly reported many of their favorites (Clinton, Reid, JFK, etc) past views on immigration reform - finding a proper balance, etc.
For instance had the MSM widely reported Bill Clinton's view of the current debate on immigration reform, and on how Bush was doing... and had the media correctly kept Clinton's views on the table in the coverage of the debate, might the media, which hates Bush, and the left, which hates Bush, been surprised to find out that Bush and Clinton see rathter eye to eye on this one?
And, speaking to a La Raza (oh help me, keep my mouth shut) gathering in Los Angeles, according the the LA Times, on July 9, 2006, he was credited with:
The story was there for the media to pick up - and to add to the discussion. Of course, the MSM does not want the voters to find any common ground here. They are on Ted Kennedy's side, in the issue. Adding Clinton's voice to this one, cuts their legs off. The MSM finds itself to the left of the moderates, no surprise. Result - the MSM must hide voices which endangers their own leftist agenda.
Imagine the openning question in one TV interview after another. For instance, Tim Russert could have openned with this for Sen. Harry Reid, or Ted Kennedy:
Russert: Topic today - Immigration reform and the great divide between President Bush and the Democrats. Sen's Reid and Kennedy. Does former President Clinton's statement this past week, in which we discover that he is not only in sinc with Bush the needed legislation here, but also rather pleased with how Bush has led on this most major issue facing our country today, put one heck of a lot of pressure on the Democrats to come around to playing ball, instead of politics. And you Senator Reid, back in 1993 the reform bill you presented to the Senate, was way to the right of where President Bush stands on the issue today. What in the world has brought you completly leave all of your old strong convictions (convictions shared by the majority of American's, by the way) behind, and land on the same side of the street as your buddy here, Teddy Kennedy. Why can't you stand with Clinton and Bush on this one?
PS - Agreed, it's almost a push poll. Secondly - the media, as with SS reform, Medicare RX reform, the Iraq war, etc., had a long hard year of trying to move the public to the left on this issue, by pounding them with victim stories, and misinformation on the facts of illegal immigration, the costs, etc., and to a great extent - they achieved some success.
Former President Clinton agre
May 25, 2007 - 19:11 ET byFormer President Clinton agrees with Bush immigration plan
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
bot...Tells ya all ya need to
May 25, 2007 - 19:13 ET by bigtimerbot...
Tells ya all ya need to know right there with your sentence bot...without reading the link...which I will.
Pathetic.
<edit> read the link and your double meaning was rich bot...in fact priceless...LMAO
Something stinks here!The ONL
May 25, 2007 - 19:06 ET by Clear thinkerSomething stinks here!
The ONLY people in this country that likes this ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION bill are the illegals and our politicians. The rest of the country has been steadfast in being against anything that resembles amnesty, so why the hell can't we get OUR own public servants to do what WE want?
I'm mad at all the Dems that are pushing for this bill, and positively furious at the Republicans that say it's the best we can hope for. If this bill passes it WILL be the end of many a political carreer. And if we are real lucky, it will also be a nail in the coffins of many of our liberal MSM outlets.
Please keep the pressure on with phone calls and emails until we get an "enforcement first" bill with no strings attached.
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877
Hold employers accountable and pay whistleblowers
May 25, 2007 - 19:12 ET by Ten7sThe first step to solving the problem is holding buisness AND individuals that hire illegals accountable. I mean actually accountable, ignorance is no excuse (99.99% know they're hiring illegals anyway). Fine the hell out of them. Make it unprofitable to hire illegals. Put a bounty on employers, i.e. pay people A LOT to turn them in. But this is the ONE thing that our politicians are absolutely avoiding. If they aren't going to hold employers accountable or build a wall, its best just to leave things as they are and actually enforce the laws as they stand.
Ten7s...Employers use the exc
May 25, 2007 - 19:17 ET by Clear thinkerTen7s...
Employers use the excuse that they are not allowed to look into the validity of SS numbers or other documentation of a potential hire. This is what the lawmakers need to fix first. Take any and all excuses away from them then you can hold them responsible.
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877
I can't remember the name off
May 25, 2007 - 19:28 ET by Ten7sI can't remember the name off the top of my head, but there was a statute passed right before this started getting REALLY bad. It gave employers some sort of legal cover to release them of liability when they are caught hiring illegal aliens. All of this needs to be changed post-haste. If they aren't going to do that then, I'd like the politicans to just shut up and allow the legal system to enforce the laws on the books.
These issues and a fence alon
May 25, 2007 - 19:41 ET by Clear thinkerThese issues and a fence along the entire southern border should be in a bill by itself. If and when we have the flood problem fixed, then we can entertain the idea of legalization issues. Enforcement and protection must come first!
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877