In an article honoring Dallas as "The Lavender Heart of Texas," Time writer John Cloud began with an unusually personal story of his political transformation, "trading movement conservatism for gay libertarianism." When you consider how he stereotypes conservatism as all about J.R. Ewing and an "air of profligacy," you could understand why it was easy to leave:
When I was a kid in Arkansas in the 1980s, we viewed Dallas with something approaching reverence. Mine was a fairly conservative family, aspirational. We passionately golfed and occasionally visited Neiman Marcus, the Dallas clothier that taught the South how to wear Versace and an air of profligacy. I wanted to drive a Mercedes and order bourbon and branch the way J.R. Ewing did. I wanted to go out with a Cowboys cheerleader with marcelled blond hair. The summer I was 13, Ronald Reagan was renominated in Dallas, and I signed up to be a young volunteer.
I've changed quite a bit, trading movement conservatism for gay libertarianism, and Dallas would like you to know that it has changed too. The Dallas Convention & Visitors Bureau operates a website proclaiming that "Dallas truly is the most liberal city in Texas!"
A real movement conservative might take exception to the idea that being a 13-year-old volunteer for the Republican incumbent president marks you as a movement conservative. (Didn't the Arlen Specter Republicans volunteer for President Reagan's reelection?) But my first thought was "if you'd stayed a conservative, there's no way you'd have this Time gig."
As Cloud celebrated how the city's homosexuals have made the city more Democrat-friendly, you have to wonder why he would proclaim his "libertarianism" instead of "liberalism." The Democrats aren't exactly known for libertarianism. It can certainly be argued that what the gay left is pursuing -- a government-enforced regime of anti-discrimination laws -- isn't live-and-let-live libertarianism. In the most "lavender-friendly" nations, the gay-left agenda has led to crackdowns on free speech, where ministers are not allowed to say homosexuality is a sin. So much for "libertarianism."
Cloud also raved about just how gay Dallas has become: "the Dallas visitors bureau gurgles, "[Dallas] has left behind stereotypes of big-haired women and rowdy cowboys--that is, unless you count sassy drag queens and strapping gay rodeo champs." (It's not the main website, but it's one of four "Diverse Dallas" websites within, glbtdallas.org.) But Cloud's emphasis on the joys of materialism still comes through, despite the story of his grand transformation:
This is not the Texas of the American imagination. Or is it? Ensorcelled by strivers and status, Dallas has always tried hard to be sophisticated. And the city knows a mathematical equation about American city life: urban sophistication requires gay civilization.
Gays who felt insecure in small Southwestern and Southern towns like the one where I grew up have long been drawn to this city of great yearning and ostentation. It was in one of Dallas' busy gay bars, ironically called J.R.'s, that I saw a T shirt that has become popular in a not totally ironic way. KEEP DALLAS PRETENTIOUS, it said. SUPPORT YOUR OWN MATERIALISM. (It's an answer to the capital's unofficial slogan, "Keep Austin weird.")
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.




















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Movement Conservatism?
May 23, 2007 - 05:56 ET by Cool ArrowDoes 'Movement Conservatism' mean anal retentive?
I'm just sayin'
Well, Tim, you can't say &q
May 23, 2007 - 06:30 ET by sarcasmoWell, Tim, you can't say "so much for libertarianism" on one hand and turn a blind eye to unfair ballot access laws on the other (if for no other reason, because I simply won't let you!). If this group had more of a voice in USA politics, the "gay movement" overall might be more-tolerant. They don't have much voice, so the "gay community" as a whole is not very tolerant, and now you complain about it. As ye sow, so shall ye reap...
JMR
More moral confusion? Here'
May 23, 2007 - 07:36 ET by dscottMore moral confusion? Here's a thought Sarc, when you advocate tolerance, then your actions should be consistent with your advocacy. Kind of like Al Gore with his $1000/month electric bills, it's called hypocrisy.
Before you point the finger of blame on ballot access laws you need to acknowledge who does the limiting for the most part - that being Democrats. You also need to acknowledge the faulty reasoning of many civic leaders who in order to keep themselves in power limit potential candidates, it's called self interest. Finally, you need to acknowledge that the elections board should never be in the hands of politicians but especially not political plumb jobs appointed by politicians as the spoils of winning an election.
Here is a civics lesson for you: On the separate issue of Homosexuality, in a democratic country where the majority rules, the culture of the majority is the standard of behavior. All power is derived from the people, it's called the consent of the governed. When unelected and unaccountable judges engage in social engineering, the result is the minority imposing it's will on the majority - in the history we call this tyranny. Whether you like it or not, Homosexuality has never been acceptable to the majority, the only reason why Mr. Cloud even gets to push his intolerance on others is that he can do so because of judicial tryanny. Sarc, as a Libertarian you should know that all actions are a result of character. Mr. Cloud's actions are a result of his character (defect IMO), not because we have disaproved of his choices.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Here's a civics lesson for
May 23, 2007 - 07:55 ET by sarcasmoHere's a civics lesson for you. We live in a republic, not a democracy, and it's a republic where minorities, even homosexuals, have certain rights. Bigots don't get to dictate any "standard of behavior," even if they want to, because of our court system and the fact that the ACLU isn't always wrong. The habit of bigots ignoring individual rights -- like thuggish political parties ignoring unfair ballot laws, which both Democrats and Republicans have clearly done -- sows what you've now reaped. I stand by all my words.
JMR
A bigot is a person who decid
May 23, 2007 - 08:29 ET by dscottA bigot is a person who decides a person's character or worth by something they can't change like the color of their skin, national origin or gender. You have bought into Sen. Ted drunk Kennedy's false notion of bigotry. Homosexuality is a choice, an action not a unchangable genetic trait. In fact, you are using the liberal tactic of self righteousness to deny the opinions of others.
As another poster pointed out, if sexual orientation was a genetic trait then pedophila, bestiality and a host of other sexual conduct would be as well. We are not buying into such a fallacy. This is just as stupid as saying a person who is the child of a murderer has the genetic traits of being a murderer and therefore they can't help themselves and should be allow to murder people as their genetics spur them to do so.
I will go one step further, if mankind is predisposed to sin (as Christians and Jews say they are), why not just let everyone act on their impulses? As a Libertarian, you are under the mistaken premise that people left to their own devices would leave each other alone and not commit crime. That is a false premise that is demonstrated to be so by rape, stealing and murder that occurs every day. The Police by enforcing the Law do not instigate crime, people commit crime when they insist on interfering with another's daily activities.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Those that believe homosexual
May 23, 2007 - 08:49 ET by LeonThose that believe homosexuality is a choice display a tremendous ignorance. Most likely willful ignorance.
This debate can be solved with one simple question: Did you choose to be straight? Somehow I doubt it was a conscious decision.
"Those that believe ho
May 23, 2007 - 08:54 ET by MightyMouth"Those that believe homosexuality is a choice display a tremendous ignorance."
Really? How in the "science" of evolution do homosexuals survive? The answer, they don't. Therefore, according to evolution, homosexuals are not the norm. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it Leon.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The same way all recessive
May 23, 2007 - 08:59 ET by sarcasmoThe same way all recessive genes survive. By your weird "science," blue eyed blondes should not exist.
JMR
And which "gene"
May 23, 2007 - 09:06 ET by MightyMouthAnd which "gene" are you talking about regarding homos? The great "sarcasmo" is capable of posting something stupid, who would have thought.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Sodomite apologists tried in
May 23, 2007 - 09:09 ET by Sergeant ROCKSodomite apologists tried in vain to conjure up this mythical 'gay gene' to no avail. : (
Avail yourself. Please.JMR
May 23, 2007 - 15:34 ET by sarcasmoAvail yourself. Please.
JMR
"WASHINGTON, 93 Jul 16
May 23, 2007 - 16:45 ET by MightyMouth"WASHINGTON, 93 Jul 16"
Sarc, the study was done in 1993? Where is all the corroborative science that supports this? In 14 years there should be mountians of data and entire websites with the gay gene proof. Where is it?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
I don't think there ever wi
May 23, 2007 - 16:58 ET by sarcasmoI don't think there ever will be "proof" that genes are anything more than a factor, but where's the proof these repeated studies are wrong?? I doubt many people are studying it -- perhaps because people don't want to know? After all, the author said the first MZ study, done by Kallmann in 1952 -- which may have been flawed, or may have been "luck of the draw" -- had a 100% concordance rate among 37 male MZ twin pairs and a much lower rate of 12% for 26 male DZ twin pairs. Almost 40 years passed before anyone followed it up in the '90s, when there was a flurry of activity, apparently. Science is slow. In this case, it's likely never to be certain, either, but I'm perhaps biased from reading so many twin studies (NOT about sexuality, there's other weird science out there!) in college. Twins can be very similar, in some very strange ways.
JMR
Sarc, homosexual desire is ge
May 23, 2007 - 17:18 ET by TruthMongerSarc, homosexual desire is genetic - it's part of our sinful nature (which we should resist) - science just hasn't found enough evidence to prove it yet - and m not holding my breath...
Probably something near the
May 23, 2007 - 09:09 ET by sarcasmoProbably something near the gene for lisping, but who knows? And prove it, or at least explain why recessive traits like blue eyes and blonde hair survive. MZ twin (clones, genetically, IOW) studies referenced here previously seem to make YOU the stupid one, but honest people can admit the science here is at best incomplete, as I do, while pointing out it's gone from 0 on my side decades ago to something tougher to classify...
JMR
I'm sure if you asked a chi
May 23, 2007 - 09:18 ET by The Wicked ConservativeI'm sure if you asked a child molester, he'd tell you it wasn't his choice either. It's a deviant behavior and choice and environment create behavior...not genetics. The desire to blame genetics for everything is a leftist movement to excuse disgusting behavior of all kinds.
The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
So homosexuality should be
May 23, 2007 - 09:22 ET by sarcasmoSo homosexuality should be outlawed?? Child molestors have victims, and homosexuals are consenting adults. It's a duh-file fact I need to keep reminding people here...It's not "blaming" genetics to say that genetics is probably somehow involved, it's responding to science which contradicts certain faiths. Tough.
JMR
So homosexuality should be
May 23, 2007 - 09:27 ET by The Wicked ConservativeSo homosexuality should be outlawed??...don't be a clown. Where, oh where did you pull that from. You have the nerve to call "red herrings" and then make a post like this. I'm calling them both deviant behaviors. Homosexuality is simply a disgusting rebellion against God. You don't believe in God, I'm sorry to hear that...then let's just call it a rebellion against nature. It's highly illogical and just plain..........wrong!
The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
Well said.
May 23, 2007 - 11:07 ET by buddycWell said.
I get "outlawed"
May 23, 2007 - 15:30 ET by sarcasmoI get "outlawed" from pedophilia, which is illegal and which you mentioned, for reasons-unknown. I'm calling them both different things, one's illegal as it should be and the other's controversial despite pages like this, which infuriate the humor-impaired while making a few good religious points. And how you managed to get from what I've said above all the way to "you don't believe in God" is another "logical" leap I can't fathom. I view it more like "God doesn't make mistakes," but whether it's cannabis or homos, when I say those words conservative Christians tend to freak-out like I've gone mad. I haven't, I just view things, including our God, differently than they do. I'd hope we could try to tolerate eachother, instead of making such willfully-clueless accusations.
Also, if homosexuality really "a rebellion against nature," then given the following quote from here: "Sexual behavior between animals of the same sex has been found in invertebrates (fruit flies); birds (certain gulls, geese, ducks, turkeys); (domestic or held captive) mammals (bulls, cows, horses, antelopes, boars, rams, sheep, dogs, cats); and primates (stumptail macaque, pigtail macaque, rhesus monkeys, Catarrhine monkeys, Japanese macaques, Hanuman langurs, vervets, squirrel monkeys, chimpanzees, pygmy chimpanzees and mountain gorillas). Keep in mind that this is just a partial list. And that, in certain cases, scientists have only observed same-sex behavior under certain circumstances (in the wild or in captivity) and/or among only females or males of a particular species."
How come Mother Nature seems to be such a lesbo in the case of all these nonhuman species? Is she trying to confuse us or something??
JMR
pathetic
May 23, 2007 - 15:36 ET by LionKingPathetic!!! Justifying perverted human activity based on the activity of soul-less animals.
Pathetic. I'm not justifyin
May 23, 2007 - 16:28 ET by sarcasmoPathetic. I'm not justifying anything by disproving claims it's not natural when it's found all over nature, I'm proving someone wrong. There's a difference.
JMR
I'm a fundie sarc and I don't
May 23, 2007 - 15:39 ET by TruthMongerI'm a fundie sarc and I don't find sin or pot to be one of God's mistakes...got anything else to try...?
Y'all sure don't seem to ev
May 23, 2007 - 16:30 ET by sarcasmoY'all sure don't seem to ever vote like it, in Russmo's view or in mine. Russmo's 'toon IMO scores what seems to me like a direct hit on some folks' priorities, and they hate seeing me say that, but it's the truth so I'm saying it.
JMR
This OT shellfish argument i
May 23, 2007 - 16:59 ET by TruthMongerThis OT shellfish argument is so lame it's beyond pathetic - and you said you believed in God - try reading the whole Bible this time...better yet try UNDERSTANDING it...
Perhaps I understand God di
May 23, 2007 - 17:09 ET by sarcasmoPerhaps I understand God differently than you do. Horrors. And if an argument is "beyond pathetic," would it be too much trouble to find an argument against it? In the GodHatesShrimp link the dude says Jesus mentioned homosexuality 0 times and divorce a lot, yet our "moral" leaders seem fixated on the gays to the exclusion of ANY discussion of divorce, and people seem to see nothing wrong with that because religious "leaders" think it should be so. Well, sorry, but I'm my own religious leader, and I think those Elmer Gantry lobby folks are often full of crap. I'm sure they think the same of me, too, and that's a good thing. I'm off to play poker at Hooters, where scantily clad females, beer, and seafood abound.
JMR
Sarc, I don't think you quite
May 23, 2007 - 17:20 ET by TruthMongerSarc, I don't think you quite get it - I'm all for banning shell fish, too...my ideal is something like the Amish lifestyle...
And Jesus does mention homosexuality in the OT and NT - because Jesus and God the Father are one and the same - and the whole Bible is God's word...
Gimme another one to smack out of the park before you head off to "Sarc-likes-to-lust-after-women-as-degraded-sex-objects-and-eat-sinful-shellfish-land...!"
Sorry, Sarc I don't buy it.
May 23, 2007 - 15:44 ET by The Wicked ConservativeSorry, Sarc I don't buy it. I'm going to go ahead and hold humans to a higher standard than fruit flies. I mentioned pedophilia because it is a deviant behavior as is homosexuality and I'd be willing to bet that the pedophile will claim he has no choice either when committing his atrocities. As for the foolish assertion that evangelicals believe that homosexuals are particularly damned let me fill you in a bit more. You're right God doesn't make mistakes beyond that you create a God to suit yourself and that's called idolatry aka commandment #2. You're going to hell just as much as any other liar, adulterer, thief, or murderer unless you put on the Lord Jesus Christ. How's that for intolerance! Leave the homosexuality out of the picture for all I care, you're still dead in your trangressions without Jesus. Repent or perish
The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
In the timeless words of Kath
May 23, 2007 - 15:46 ET by dscottIn the timeless words of Katherine Hepburn:
"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put on this earth to rise above."
The one thing that separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is we have laws and codes of conduct, without such society devolves and collapses under the weight of passion. It didn't work well for Rome, did it? They were having homosexual marriages before the empire fell. They started out with the Rule of Law and where did it get them when they succombed to their lusts?
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Once again, I'm not saying
May 23, 2007 - 16:33 ET by sarcasmoOnce again, I'm not saying humans should act like animals, I'm simply saying that animals apparently sometimes act like homosexual humans, despite earlier unintentionally-funny denials that nature actually works that way. It does work that way. People here need to find a way to deal with it.
JMR
homosexuality is outlawed
May 23, 2007 - 14:17 ET by LionKingHomosexuality is outlawed in many states. The fag supporters of the Supreme Court (before Roberts) stripped Texas of its right to govern itself; violated the Constitutional protection afforded to states.
BTW, you are begging the question asking others to prove the FAG gene does not exist. Get a grip sarcasmo!!!
Homosexuality is outlawed i
May 23, 2007 - 14:25 ET by balboaHomosexuality is outlawed in many states.
Really? Which ones?
here is a link
May 23, 2007 - 14:36 ET by LionKingSodomy laws are actually what I was referring.
Lion -- most states rights have been overturned.
May 23, 2007 - 14:44 ET by misterbillLion -- most states rights have been overturned. I asked a state (not Fed) senator about our GA laws on immigration. He told me that the "compromise" if approved would be superior to our state laws.
(Which are pretty good BTW-GSA) I am a very strong states rightist. I want things the way our Founding Fathers tried to build it.
Im with you misterbill. Howev
May 23, 2007 - 14:49 ET by bassndudeIm with you misterbill. However, any stipulations not covered by the federal bill and in your state bill, will remain enforceable. I dont think this fed deal will get very far anyway. Hope not.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I pray you are right--
May 23, 2007 - 14:56 ET by misterbillI pray you are right--I will never understand why so many fellow americans want to give away their birthright. Is the pottage that attractive. Are we Esau who would do such a foolish thing?
Supreme Ct overstepped
May 23, 2007 - 14:49 ET by LionKingThe Supreme Court overstepped their authority in the Lawrence vs Texas case. Since this was not specifically covered in the US Constitution, it became the states right to govern this behavior. The Supreme Court acted contrary to the US Constitution...it should be revisisted.
Outlaw Homos?
May 23, 2007 - 09:28 ET by Cool ArrowYou confuse legality with morality. There is an obvious difference in law, and I would hope you're cognizant of it.
I served with Homosexuals in the Military. It wasn't a problem. Why Clinton came up with his silly twist on the subject is beyond me.
IMHO Gays should be allowed the right and duty to serve like all other law abiding citizens. But don't tell me I have to accept the lifestyle on moral grounds.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
You already did, when you s
May 23, 2007 - 09:33 ET by sarcasmoYou already did, when you served with 'em and "it wasn't a problem." And it's YOUR side that's confusing what's moral with what's legal, I'm the one who wants LESS political & MORE civil society, which means leaving people alone.
JMR
Then get consistent and back
May 23, 2007 - 15:42 ET by TruthMongerThen get consistent and back the peds too, sarc:)...don't be "intolerant" now...
Difference, as usual, is th
May 24, 2007 - 04:33 ET by sarcasmoDifference, as usual, is the existence of an actual victim vs the existence of various uninvolved people who feature a big-government-enhancing kind of perpetual political outrage and desire to spend my tax dollars on their idea of "morality." And as for homosexual desire being "genetic," I simply don't think so when it comes to all people. I've tried to figure out a way to put this delicately, and failed, and maybe I'm weird but...For me, good sex requires an actual erection, and males have never elicited that particular physiological response in my case! This has led me to conclude that I'm hopelessly heterosexual, despite the considerable allure of potentially-upsetting Islamofascists and lots of people here who need upsetting were it not so. Oh well...
Oh, and Hooters (back when I listened to Limbaugh, they bought ads from him, ya know?) was great. Islamofascists and the people who want to politically force me to live an Amish lifestyle should definitely be upset with all my horrible sins last night. Maybe they should join forces and work together to outlaw Hooters (now a worldwide chain) with some sort of combination of US law and "fatwa"?
JMR
Sarc
May 23, 2007 - 09:43 ET by Cool ArrowYou agree with everything the Muslicrats push? Have you always agreed with your party?
I didn't know you belonged to the minority that has no choice but to blindly follow the Muslicrat line.
I'm sorry this is your plight.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
"The same way all rece
May 23, 2007 - 09:20 ET by MightyMouth"The same way all recessive genes survive."
So you admit your statement above is unfounded. Good. BTW "sarcasmo" I am not putting you down for being gay. I just don't appreciate that fact that you insist that being gay is something I must accept as "normal" . To me it's as abnormal as wanting to bugger young boys (which very few actual gay men do btw). And to clairfy my statement above I don't believe in evolution per se, but if one does, I think one would have a hard time harmonizing the two.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
It's not about tolerance, it'
May 23, 2007 - 09:25 ET by Sergeant ROCKIt's not about tolerance, it's about acceptance.
Accept or be charged with a hate crime!
And on top of where you're
May 23, 2007 - 09:27 ET by sarcasmoAnd on top of where you're already wrong elsewhere in this thread, I'm against all "hate crime" laws, too. I can get gays sputtering mad just as easily as I can with conservatives. It's a gift...
JMR
Admit it, you just enjoy the
May 23, 2007 - 09:44 ET by dscottAdmit it, you just enjoy the rise you get from disagreeing.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
I thought I just did, by ca
May 23, 2007 - 15:12 ET by sarcasmoI thought I just did, by calling it "a gift." :)
JMR
Thanks for the clarification,
May 23, 2007 - 15:18 ET by dscottThanks for the clarification, I'd rather not infer unless I have to since some might say I am putting words in their mouth.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Uh, huh? "Admit"?
May 23, 2007 - 09:26 ET by sarcasmoUh, huh? "Admit"??? "Unfounded"??? And once again, you people need to learn to read, I'm NOT gay. If I were, I'd be "out" about it, but I'm simply NOT, and I CAN'T BE, even though I have gay friends!! My mind just wasn't...er...born that way, I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body. It really worries me when reading comprehension levels are so damn low and at the same time everyone else's votes count the same as mine. No offense, but READ THIS THREAD!!!!!!
JMR
Sarc...I had no idea you were
May 23, 2007 - 15:25 ET by Clear thinkerSarc...
I had no idea you were gay. It does however explain alot.
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877
Reading comprehension: 0.0 (or "good one" - one never knows!)
May 23, 2007 - 15:47 ET by sarcasmoReading comprehension: 0.0 The "lesbian trapped in a man's body" line is a JOKE about being heterosexual and NOT having "a choice" because I find men sexually disgusting to the point that I'm amazed more women aren't lesbos. I'll be honest and admit it -- I wish I didn't sometimes because females can be frustrating, but I'm still attracted to them-not-men sexually and there doesn't seem to be much "choice" involved in the process that could cause me to somehow switch to wanting males. It's not a matter of will, IMO I was born this way. And it still worries me that other people's votes count the same as mine when they can somehow read one thing and immediately manage to think the exact opposite...Unless you were joking, in which case, "good one," but I'm still worried about various others' reading comprehension because of responses to me on this very emotional, and not very logical, NB thread.
JMR
Meh
May 23, 2007 - 15:58 ET by Mr. BishopI always tell my wife I must be a lesbian because I like women... she hits me when I say it.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Heterosexuals do choose to be
May 23, 2007 - 16:02 ET by TruthMongerHeterosexuals do choose to be hetero, sarc...it's an action...not a feeling...
So whattya got next...?
Then why can't I choose to
May 23, 2007 - 17:01 ET by sarcasmoThen why can't I choose to be a homo?? I'm stuck here as a hot young lesbian in an ugly old man's body, and it's like torture sometimes. ;^)
JMR
I have been patiently waiting
May 23, 2007 - 14:10 ET by mulerider24I have been patiently waiting for the word "homozygous" to find its way into this dialogue, but it appears I must cater to my dominant "immature" gene and force the issue.
So are we far enough along to know whether the homesexuality gene is recessive or not? I know just enough about genetics to know that my wife and I, both blonde-haired and blue-eyed, will create a similar Aryan spawn matching our recessive genes. Is it too simple to ask that we fertilize one of Rosie's eggs with a "specimen" from Elton John and see if the horrific by-product results in an extremely dominant homosexual individual?
ah but Rosie met Elton--
May 23, 2007 - 16:13 ET by misterbillaah, but Rosie met Elton--I may get a warning about this, but it's worth it.
--
Rosie while visiting in Khartoum
Invited Elton John to her room
They argued all night
About who had the right
To do what with what to whom.
-
Zo I dont tink your test vill vork.
Homosexuals don't need to rep
May 23, 2007 - 18:52 ET by j. frank wilsonHomosexuals don't need to reproduce to survive. Each generation produces roughly the same percentage as the previous generation. It's nature. It happens. Just as most folks don't choose to be straight most folks don't choose to be gay. A few do, of course. And a few have it thrust upon them (if you will) by years in prison or in the olden days a long sea voyage (see Winnie's "rum, sodomy, and the lash").
Not every straight couple reproduces, either. I believe it's up in Oregon there is a petition drive to void the marriage of any couple what fails to produce a child within five (5) years. After all, if the only purpose of marriage is to protect offspring, why should the state condone marriages that fail to produce?
That's a difference of opinio
May 23, 2007 - 08:54 ET by dscottThat's a difference of opinion son and engaging in tactics that claim the dissenters are willfully ignorant demonstrates how weak your position is and your failure to be able to argue it. You just lost the argument, thanks for playing.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
It is a choice, doofuss. Sex,
May 23, 2007 - 08:59 ET by Sergeant ROCKIt is a choice, doofuss. Sex, as intended by nature, is for reproduction of a species. Which is why, typically with higher lifeforms, that there is a MALE and FEMALE for each species. Penis + anus = gratification, NOT reproduction. Hopefully this will disuade you from posting your ignorance on the matter.. homophile.
gratification...come out of the cave
May 23, 2007 - 19:30 ET by LionKingPenis + anus = gratification ... ewwwww!!! Does not sound gratifying to me by any stretch of the imagination.
Just like Global Warming and
May 23, 2007 - 09:24 ET by Roger the ShrubberJust like Global Warming and evolution, the cause/source/reason of homosexuality is in the theory stage, with no concrete proof one way or another.
You scorn the religious folks on this website for their views on those topics, while you act just as ignorant when you post comments like above. You are no different. Congratulations, you are what you hate.
Did you choose to be stupid?
Does everyone here choose n
May 23, 2007 - 15:10 ET by sarcasmoDoes everyone here choose not to read? It doesn't give me a lot of hope for your intelligence, frankly... I've said the scientific case, while imperfect, seems to be growing for genetics as a factor, and everyone objects, but now I've found the science to back it up, so I guess just about everyone will howl at me. I wish getting attention about unfair ballot laws was even half this-easy...
JMR
Problem
May 23, 2007 - 15:53 ET by Mr. BishopIf you read that sarcasmo... that "study" you link, is based upon statistics and opinions... which is the biggest problem with this whole homosexuality debate. Those that support homosexuality as genetic, can only use statistics, and opinions, to justify their claim. Those that support it as choice, use biology and the natural order of reproduction, to support theirs.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
sarc...NPR letters as a source
May 23, 2007 - 15:54 ET by LionKingTell me...is NPR Letters like Penthouse Forum?
On not getting attention
May 23, 2007 - 16:33 ET by UnsaneYou can't get attention about "unfair ballot laws" because (with the exception of gerrymandering) they are not unfair. I saw Libertarians all over the place on the ballot here when I voted in the last election.
But it is MUCH easier to cry, scream, howl, and throw tantrums about how unfair ballot laws are, rather than do some serious soul-searching as to why people simply aren't voting for you or your cause.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Hilarious.JMR
May 23, 2007 - 16:40 ET by sarcasmoHilarious.
JMR
Hey, ALL good humor has an el
May 23, 2007 - 18:08 ET by UnsaneHey, ALL good humor has an element of truth. In that case, 100% was true.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Me too stoopid to read. Me du
May 23, 2007 - 19:24 ET by Roger the ShrubberMe too stoopid to read. Me dumb redneck caveman.
Apparently you cannot read, either, because, even though you found a study giving some scientific evidence of "gay genetics", it is still a theory, which is what I said.
Nice attempt at trying to paint me with the same brush you have painted many other here today. I have one of the VERY FEW people on this thread today being rational, open-minded, and not a jackass.
You're not going to like this
May 23, 2007 - 10:00 ET by mattmYou're not going to like this, but...
The idea that homosexuality is not a choice is one of the most cruel lies out there! Humans are heterosexual...there are males and there are females.... This isn't "willful ingnorance", it's basic biology.
The born gay lie is just another method "gays" use to a) ease their consciences, b) recruit children (not consenting adults) into the gay lifestyle, and c) convince society to accept them - they used to merely demand tolerance, now they want acceptance...later it will be dominance...(this is directly related to "a")
This is why they so voilently oppose the ex-gay movement...its mere existence disproves their lies!
Consentual? It wasn't so for the victims of these psychopaths.
Look, if you want to behave how you want to behave in the privacy of your own home - as long as it's between consenting adults, fine. Just don't shove it in my face and tell me that I have to accept it as if it were normal human behavior.
Ba-Da-Bing... Ba-Da-Bang..
May 23, 2007 - 10:04 ET by Sergeant ROCKBa-Da-Bing... Ba-Da-Bang..
Assuming...
May 23, 2007 - 15:49 ET by Mr. BishopAssuming, for the instant, that homosexuality is genetic, and not a choice -- there is one, and only one, possible reason: genetic mutation, or birth defect. You can argue this until your face turns blue, but any argument against this, is in vain. Sexual reproduction requires one man, and one woman, to get together sexually, and reproduce. Without this, in the natural stages of evolution, the human sepcies would die out. You cannot reproduce naturally, between two men, or two women. You must have one of each.
Therefor... I propose then, that stem cell research, according to your own line of thought, can then cure homosexuality, or stop it from occurring. Sounds like I need to add that to my signature line now...
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Nonbigots manage to hate th
May 23, 2007 - 08:54 ET by sarcasmoNonbigots manage to hate the sin but love the person they consider a sinner without getting big government involved and once-again spending my taxe$. And interfering with peaceful people is exactly the problem with big government, and it's a moral problem which has effectively made big government a new religion. When there are no victims, people SHOULD be free to "act on their impulses." And as I keep saying, if homosexuality were really "a choice," then frustration with women would have certainly made me choose it by now. I can't because what I think due to my genetic makeup (but nobody's sure, despite your certainty) which has, for better or worse, made me heterosexual so I think guys are disgusting.
JMR
Once again you are mixing iss
May 23, 2007 - 09:06 ET by dscottOnce again you are mixing issues to confuse the argument. Are we arguing about homosexuality or voting or legislation? I'm arguing about Homosexuality specifically. It is a choice and confusing someone's frustration in dealing with the opposite sex is an "excuse" to be a "Libertine" to act upon their impulses. There are plenty of men and women frustrated in dealing with the opposite sex, their problem is they are involved with the wrong kind of person who has a character defect. Not all people have a character defect. I can understand why someone would throw their hands up and say I can't stand a person of the opposite sex. However, that is IMO a "bigoted" stereotype of the opposite sex. You confuse the personal character defect of several bad actors of one group and then apply that character defect as the stereotype to the rest of the group - that is the definition of bigotry. Being a bigot is not a justification for Homosexuality.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
We're going to need to agre
May 23, 2007 - 09:15 ET by sarcasmoWe're going to need to agree to disagree. I showed in the first post how unfair ballot laws combined with a great deal of historical bigotry to lead to what we're seeing today, and I stand by all my words, as usual. People just don't like seeing them, as usual, but that's why I love the interweb...
JMR
Well said!
May 23, 2007 - 11:04 ET by buddycWell said!
Why do you ignore even bold
May 23, 2007 - 08:58 ET by sarcasmoWhy do you ignore even bold? If the ACLU were always wrong, they would not be so strong. They're not, just as I said, and saying something obvious like that in no way references "NAMBLA," although I must admit, the "NAMBLA" red herring is a pretty-good substitute for an actual argument...Nazis in Skokie work, too.
JMR
It's a fact that ACLU defende
May 23, 2007 - 09:07 ET by Sergeant ROCKIt's a fact that ACLU defended NAMBLA members in court. How long have you been a sodomite apologist?
How long have you been an idi
May 23, 2007 - 09:12 ET by sarcasmoHow long have you been an idiot?
JMR
Nice try, sodomite.. but you
May 23, 2007 - 09:15 ET by Sergeant ROCKNice try, sodomite.. but you are the idiot devoid of facts. Probably a symptom of your mental illness with regards to your 'choice' of a lifestyle.
Dummy, I already said I'm i
May 23, 2007 - 09:17 ET by sarcasmoDummy, I already said I'm incapable of that lifestyle. I just don't care what other people do sexually because I'm not a "moral" busybody. In fact, I think only idiots are, as your "argument" proves.
JMR
Yo Sgt Rock
May 23, 2007 - 09:18 ET by Cool ArrowHe was born with his eyes open and vowed never to go back there again.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Idiot?
May 23, 2007 - 09:16 ET by Cool ArrowOh, good maneuver. Lose an argument and turn to name calling. Time to walk away with another in the 'W' column.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
So "sodomite apologist&q
May 23, 2007 - 09:18 ET by sarcasmoSo "sodomite apologist" isn't name calling and therefore losing first! Fascinating double-standard here, I wish I could say I was surprised, but it's situation-normal.
JMR
No, it's a fact.
May 23, 2007 - 09:21 ET by Sergeant ROCKNo, it's a fact.
Then so's idiot.JMR
May 23, 2007 - 09:31 ET by sarcasmoThen so's idiot.
JMR
Sodomite apologist
May 23, 2007 - 09:23 ET by Cool ArrowSodomite apologist is an accurate description of your stance. It is not name calling and it stays on topic.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
a·pol·o·gist [uh-pol-uh
May 23, 2007 - 09:28 ET by Sergeant ROCKa·pol·o·gist [uh-pol-uh-jist] –noun 1.a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
Nice try, hypocrite. It's n
May 23, 2007 - 09:29 ET by sarcasmoNice try, hypocrite. It's name calling, and pointing out that you're a hypocrite is simply accurately describing your attempt to get away with it. :)
JMR
ACLU
May 23, 2007 - 09:13 ET by Cool ArrowWhen did the ACLU get one piece of legislation passed?
I was of the impression they did all their deeds in the courts. Are you saying the Court system is fair?
I certainly don't remember God being removed from schools, Nativity scenes removed from public places, and NAMBLA advocated on the floors of Congress.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
A few years ago, NAMBLA was i
May 23, 2007 - 09:18 ET by Sergeant ROCKA few years ago, NAMBLA was included in a collection of 'gay rights' groups that were trying get NGO status in the U.N. It wasn't until after Republican activism in Congress that these groups reluctantly excluded NAMBLA from their ranks. Maybe next time?
Hey, the activism was probabl
May 23, 2007 - 09:30 ET by sarcasmoHey, the activism was probably led by Mark Foley, too!
JMR
Foley
May 23, 2007 - 09:35 ET by Cool ArrowMaybe, and Barney Crank who also has a fettish for pages. Guess two legislators on the same page isn't always a good thing.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Great post Sarc. People on
May 23, 2007 - 08:50 ET by LeonGreat post Sarc. People on this site regularly forget these facts.
There is a difference between
May 23, 2007 - 07:20 ET by dscottThere is a difference between a country club Repub and a conservative Repub, it's usually called a silver spoon. Mr. Cloud, you were never a conservative, if you were, you would recognize the folly of your actions and not taken the path "you" have "chosen".
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Hey dscott, that's hitting be
May 23, 2007 - 07:33 ET by ncstevemHey dscott, that's hitting below the belt--no pun intended. Well actually the pun was 100% intentional.
I frequent a Catholic site and the question of homosexuality being genetic or chosen behavior was discussed in one of the forums. I simply asked those who seemed to defend the idea of genetic homosexuality if then all sexuality (lesbianism, bisexuality, pedophilia, necrophilia etc.) was also genetic based and if not how they distinguished the origin of these perversions.
The typical response was I didn't know what I was talking about by asking the question.
Well in their mind you don't
May 23, 2007 - 07:39 ET by dscottWell in their mind you don't know what "they" were talking about, that's because you found the false premise of their argument.
In Geometry it's called a false proof: start with a false assumption, apply flawless logic and arrive at a flawlessly false conclusion.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Ensorcelled Is that some so
May 23, 2007 - 07:46 ET by Jack BauerIs that some sort of homosexual slang? Or maybe the guy received a Thesaurus for Christmas.
I can smell an "Enrich Y
May 23, 2007 - 09:15 ET by Roger the ShrubberI can smell an "Enrich Your Word Power" fan a mile away...
Certainly his vocabulary ha
May 23, 2007 - 09:31 ET by Jack BauerCertainly his vocabulary has been embiggened.
You are cromulent for saying
May 23, 2007 - 09:47 ET by Roger the ShrubberYou are cromulent for saying such a thing.
Who you calling Cromulent
May 23, 2007 - 09:50 ET by Cool ArrowI wouldn't take such a retromingent attack sitting down.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Supercalifagilisticexpialidoc
May 23, 2007 - 09:51 ET by NL207Supercalifagilisticexpialidocious.
Now are we done with silliness for today, children?
Supercalifagilisticexpialid
May 23, 2007 - 09:59 ET by MightyMouthSupercalifagilisticexpialidocious, is the California version, the correct spelling is:
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious :-)
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Oh my goodness - words at 20
May 23, 2007 - 10:52 ET by RackieOh my goodness - words at 20 paces -it's just too Fantabulosa.
Antidisestablishmentarianism
May 23, 2007 - 09:53 ET by Cool ArrowOr words to that effect
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I believe the guy actually me
May 23, 2007 - 07:58 ET by MidAmericaI believe the guy actually meant he became a 'libertine' not a 'libertarian'.
libertarian
One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state. One who believes in free will.
libertine
One who acts without moral restraint; a dissolute person. One who defies established religious precepts; a freethinker. Morally unrestrained; dissolute.
Agreed. Much like the terms
May 23, 2007 - 08:03 ET by sarcasmoAgreed. Much like the terms "fission" and "fusion," some very contradictory words can sound quite similar in English.
JMR
liberteen--
May 23, 2007 - 16:57 ET by misterbillliberteen-- like you said for libertine, but younger. Or almost all our teenagers.
The publishing of the article
May 23, 2007 - 08:55 ET by Michael ChapmanThe publishing of the article in TIME magazine and that the article was written by a homosexual, about his homosexuality, and "urban sophistication" is just further proof that the elite liberal media are hell-bent on promoting and "normalizing" homosexuality throughout the culture. TIME is using its influence and clout to promote and celebrate something that old Mother Nature herself has condemned.
Just for the record, I grew
May 23, 2007 - 09:23 ET by dervishJust for the record, I grew up in the South, but east of the Mississippi, and I can't imagine a city with any less influence on my community than Dallas (well, maybe Moose Jaw). If it weren't for the Cowboys, none of us would have known that it even existed. This dude lives in a cloud that extends about three feet out from his navel.
I'm going to have to object t
May 23, 2007 - 13:31 ET by mulerider24I'm going to have to object to your gross mischaracterization of my Dallas-Fort Worth home. Does the name "J.R. Ewing" ring a bell? Sixteen years off the air and Southfork Ranch is still our #1 tourist attraction. It's now wonder why people still believe in the gun-toting, outlaw stereotype of us Texans.
And for the record, there is a HUGE Mason Dixon Line (substitue the race connotation with snobbery and pretentiousness) between Dallas and Fort Worth. Also, I would match the incompetence and ineptitude of the Dallas City Council against any third-world theocratic regime.
I think that if most gays wou
May 23, 2007 - 09:45 ET by Phan of TruthI think that if most gays would just keep their bedroom practices in the bedroom, instead of seemingly wearing their sexuality on their sleeves and promoting it, lots of people wouldn't be so outraged. Personally, I don't really care if you are gay, but I don't want to hear about it or see it, just like I don't want to hear about anybody's sexual behavior or see it.
And is that too much to ask?
May 23, 2007 - 09:53 ET by Sergeant ROCKAnd is that too much to ask? Evidently, it is.
Being the exhibitionists they
May 23, 2007 - 10:43 ET by dscottBeing the exhibitionists they are, they demand we notice! They will not be ignored.
Do we as a society tolerate two people getting it on in public? Then why should anyone be insisting we know about their sexual behavior and then insist we approve of it? Why is it so important to them that we approve of it? Leave us out of your personal choices, just as I don't want you in my personal choices. Keep your business to yourself. Thank you.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
They want to expand Disney Wo
May 23, 2007 - 10:47 ET by Sergeant ROCKThey want to expand Disney World's gay pride week to the rest of the country.
Expand Disneyland
May 23, 2007 - 10:51 ET by Cool ArrowWill they put in footwash stations in the bathrooms next to the peter pans.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Yeah, and Mickey will be hand
May 23, 2007 - 10:54 ET by Sergeant ROCKYeah, and Mickey will be handing out towels in the bath houses too.
Respectful does not equal pru
May 23, 2007 - 10:01 ET by Phan of TruthRespectful does not equal prudish.
I found some actual science
May 23, 2007 - 15:05 ET by sarcasmoI found some actual science, and I'm going to quote part of it here:
"The largest genetic studies to date have been our own, one with men and one with women. These studies included not only MZ and DZ twins, but a third group, homosexual subjects with adoptively-related same-sex siblings, who are genetically least similar and thus should be least similar in their sexual orientations. Our two studies obtained results that were quite similar to each other. In the male study, MZ twins of our gay index subjects had a 52% chance also of being gay, compared to a 22% rate for their DZ twins and an 11% chance for their adoptive brothers. In the female study, MZ twins had a 48% chance of also being lesbian, compared to a 16% rate for DZ twins and a 6% rate for adoptive sisters. Note that similarity in sexual orientation corresponded closely with genetic similarity in both studies.
Quantitative analyses provide heritability estimates of the relative proportion of genetic causation, and our heritabilities were consistently above 50%. Thus, both studies were consistent with moderate to strong genetic influences on sexual orientation. Of course, both studies yielded figures lower than the 100% suggested by Kallmann. Two newer twin studies more or less supported ours. One found concordance rates that were lower than ours, the other found higher rates, but both found MZ higher than DZ rates.
All recent studies find that MZ twins often differ in their sexual
orientations, which shows that sexual orientation cannot be completely explained by genes. Environment must play its part. On the other hand, we emphasize that environmental pathways can be biological as well as psychosocial. One of the most interesting questions to stem from the recent twin studies is what environmental factor could affect MZ twins
differently enough to give them opposite sexual orientations.
One other twin study is worth mentioning because it contained what
many consider to be the ideal (if rare) subjects: twins reared apart. In this study both of two male pairs were concordant for adult homosexual feelings and behavior, which would be highly unlikely if genetic factors were unimortant. Although none of four female pairs
was concordant, this sample was too small to be conclusive; of course it provided no support for genetic factors affecting female sexual orientation.
Although we believe the available evidence is strongly suggestive of genetic influence on sexual orientation for both men and women, one serious methodological limitation of available studies prevent them from being definitive. The studies have recruited subjects via advertising in gay- and lesbian-oriented publications. They may have had an overrepresentation of concordant pairs because such studies might be more appealing to gay men and women with gay twins. Such bias is not very serious unless it was stronger for MZ than for DZ twins, and we have no reason to suspect that such differential bias occurred. But only a study using systematic ascertainment could exclude this possibility, and unfortunately none exists.
Research that helps settle some questions raises new ones. By what
pathway do genes lead to the expression of atypical childhood behavior and homosexual orientation? Our studies have usually been discussed as supportive of neuroendocrine theories, and genetic influences might indeed be neuroendocrine. One could imagine a gene that led a fetus to secrete unusually high or low levels of prenatal androgens during
brain differentiation, or alternatively, to be especially sensitive or insensitive to androgens. But genetic influences on sexual orientation would not have to be neuroendocrine in nature. For example, genes could influence personality (say, independent thinking or unconventionality) that could increase the chance of adopting a homosexual identity. For reasons we discuss later, we doubt that the indirect route through personality is typical, and instead believe that genetic influences operate via a neuroendocrine pathway. But our studies have had nothing so far to say about this.
The Biology Debate
A thorough and thoughtful critique of the biological evidence has
been provided by Byne and Parsons, in a recent version of Archives of General Psychiatry. They argue that the biological case is quite weak. Byne has asserted that reviewing the biological evidence is akin to ; because no one study is methodologically strong enough to establish the biological case definitively. While we agree that no one study has established the case for biological factors, we disagree that their sum is "zero" evidence in favor of biological hypotheses. It is difficult if not impossible to do perfect studies using human subjects. But if different kinds of studies with different research strategies (with different methodological inadequacies) converge to similar conclusions, then the critic who rejects the cumulative evidence begins to sound strained."
...
It goes on, but I hope by now everyone gets the point that the biological case, while certainly imperfect, seems to be growing...
JMR
biological case
May 23, 2007 - 15:11 ET by LionKingThe case appears to be formulated on some empirical analysis regarding 114 families. Not a significant sample and certainly does not account for other factors.
btw, NPR Letters is not exactly a reputable source for scientific publication.
According to science just a c
May 23, 2007 - 15:51 ET by TruthMongerAccording to science just a cosmic second ago the earth was flat. Science is like the weather - it changes everyday.
If science can keep it's story straight for just a few thousand years it might even become as reputable as the Bible...!
You need to actually-read
May 23, 2007 - 16:00 ET by sarcasmoYou need to actually-read, it looks like just someone's web page, perhaps someone with the initials NPR or perhaps someone who writes to National Public Radio, I don't know, but the web page is LONG...Way too long for you to have actually evaluated it in that short a time, IMO.
JMR
I read it
May 23, 2007 - 16:03 ET by Mr. BishopI was bored, so I read your source. What I noted, was exactly as I posted on the first page of this thread -- it is nothing but statistics and opinions, no science involved, except "behavioral" science. That is the biggest problem with the genetic/choice debate... those that support the genetic angle, can only use statistics and opinions, to support their case.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a
The genetic and neuroendicr
May 23, 2007 - 16:08 ET by sarcasmoThe genetic and neuroendicrine evidence is, like it or not, more than just statistics these days (that's why I pasted-in the quote for everyone, so no click would be required to see it). And, as I said, it's evidence that appears to be growing, and THAT fact has certain peoples' panties here in quite a knot. I find it highly amusing, of course...
JMR
Using science to back your cl
May 23, 2007 - 16:12 ET by TruthMongerUsing science to back your claims is not nearly enough, sarc - that's your religion, not mine...
Mine's the "God doesn'
May 23, 2007 - 16:26 ET by sarcasmoMine's the "God doesn't make mistakes" religion, as I've said before. Most folks these days seem to worship the "big government doesn't make mistakes" religion, if you ask me, but I follow the (tax) money -- another argument that seems to infuriate more than it illuminates!
JMR
If God doesn't make mistakes
May 23, 2007 - 16:40 ET by TruthMongerIf God doesn't make mistakes then the Wahhabi's and House of Saud must not be a problem for ya anymore...! I'm happy for you...
You mean they're not either
May 23, 2007 - 16:48 ET by sarcasmoYou mean they're not either part-of (see US supported dictators) or else worshippers-of (see Wahhabis) a very big government which would, if it could, control just about all aspects of human life, in spite of all their empty rhetoric about being "a religion of peace"? Wow. Coulda fooled me!
JMR
Hey man, GOD DOESN'T MAKE MIS
May 23, 2007 - 17:14 ET by TruthMongerHey man, GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES:)!
People Do, and they also have
May 23, 2007 - 17:19 ET by bassndudePeople Do, and they also have a tendency to try to blame God for the choices they make...not gonna work guys. God dont do double speak.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Um.... no
May 23, 2007 - 16:14 ET by Mr. BishopWrong... simply wrong...
I could take 10,000 crack addicts to the side, and ask them questions, to slant their decision to smoke crack, as being the fault of genetics. That article that you supply, does not show a single bit of genetic evidence, concerning homosexuality being genetic -- it only has opinions on the subject. That is where your information is drastically in error, and my guess is, you will fail to see it, and then ignore it.
As I said previously -- if homosexuality is, indeed genetic, then the ONLY explanation is genetic mutation, or birth defect. As such... stem cell research might provide a cure.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
I love it..."It only h
May 23, 2007 - 16:23 ET by sarcasmoI love it..."It only has opinions" when a page cites various studies carried out in actual labs (and fully cites/admits their weaknesses, even!) followed by "If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure." Am I the only one who sees a bit of irony in all this??
JMR
I think we have our hands ful
May 23, 2007 - 16:38 ET by TruthMongerI think we have our hands full with all of the irony in your posts right now sarc:)...
And?
May 23, 2007 - 18:32 ET by Mr. BishopGolly... studies... did you see the word you used? Studies... studies are opinions, based upon behavioral science questions/answer sessions sarcasmo. Do you see why I said, right off the bat, you would deny it first, then ignore it second? These studies are not genetic experiments, which are needed to prove genetic anything.... studies are merely observations. I'm guessing that you won't see this, you'll deny it more, and declare your "study" as the absolute in truth on this subject. I read that "study", from beginning to end. In it, I found no substantiated biological proof, that homosexuality is genetic. I found opinions based largely on the statistics... not experimental evidence.
As for your "irony" question -- go back throughout the forum archives. In it, if you search for anything I have ever said on the subject of homosexuality, is that it is, indeed, possible to be genetic. I have always maintained, that if it is, indeed, genetic -- it can ONLY be a birth defect. Period.
If you research the issue of stem cell research, you will find that I have little commented on the subject on here.
What irony do you see sarcasmo? My comments on this subject are not full of irony, they are undisputable truths, as well as a statement put forth concerning stem cell research. The stem cell research comment is based upon the nonsensical notion, that the cure for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and various other diseases, are right around the corner with the use of stem cell research. I was merely adding another genetic birthing problem to the list. If you insist that homosexuality is, in fact, genetic -- then a cure must be able to be found in stem cell research.
Now, you began this whole argument about homosexuality being genetic. I did not dispute this possibility sarcasmo. If you could take your arrogant ego out of the equation for a few minutes, and re-read what I wrote on this thread, you will see that I have, nowhere, argued the opposite. In fact, I have argued, as I point out again, that homosexuality can possibly be genetic. What I did say, to which seems to really bother you, is that there is no scientific evidence to support such a claim. What I said, in addition to this, was that your "study" is flawed because it is based upon opinions, and statistics... nothing more. If you don't like that being pointed out to you, then use a different report.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
So much sheer idiocy on thi
May 23, 2007 - 15:14 ET by JasonCFirst, at least Sarcasmo and Leon are making sane, rational arguments in the face of thinly-veiled homophobia. Good for you guys for sticking to your guns.
This idea that homosexuality must be caused by one of two mutually-exclusive things is amusing. Is it the mythic gene or is it a decision. Way to be black-and-white, geniuses. Perhaps it has to do with one's upbringing and a near-infinite set of stimuli and experiences that shape one's psyche by the time he or she becomes a pubescent, sexual creature. People don't "just decide" to be foot fetishists either, nor does anyone believe in a foot fetish gene. A vast network of ego-shaping events determine these things.
Someone claimed that "ex-gays" prove that homosexuality is a choice. Well, many gay people spend years in the closet or even convince themselves that they are straight, before coming out. Are they "ex-straights"?
Meanwhile, the liberal use of terms like "sodomite" and "fag" on this board just goes to show that most of you hate gays because you think it's gross or feel your own sexuality threatened or because you were raised to hate them without even questioning why. Pathetic.
Oh, and, like sarcasmo, I am not gay.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
"Meanwhile, the libera
May 23, 2007 - 15:25 ET by MightyMouth"Meanwhile, the liberal use of terms like "sodomite" and "fag""
JasonC, do you have or have you had any gay friends? I have, and believe me they use those exact same words. Kinda like the rapper who uses the "N" word all day long. The point is using the words doesn't prove hate, actions prove hate. It is possible to oppose someones lifestyle without hating them.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Except the people using the
May 23, 2007 - 15:36 ET by balboaExcept the people using the word "fag" here are using it to be hateful, degrading.
Amigo, you have obviously n
May 23, 2007 - 15:38 ET by MightyMouthAmigo, you have obviously never seen a "fag fight". Talk about hateful and degrading....
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Is it anything like Fight C
May 23, 2007 - 15:45 ET by balboaIs it anything like Fight Club? Because the first rule of Fight Club is: Don't talk about Fight Club.
Fight Club is nothing by co
May 23, 2007 - 15:55 ET by MightyMouthFight Club is nothing by comparison. Just be glad you aren't the one tasked with breaking it up or trying to talk sense without appearing to take sides. Yikes!!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
overly sensitive???
May 23, 2007 - 15:41 ET by LionKingHow is the use of this word degrading and hateful? You just used the word, in quotes no less; were you being hateful?
Yes, I was being hateful. S
May 23, 2007 - 15:43 ET by balboaYes, I was being hateful. Spectacular argument.
dumbass (aka balboa)...way to answer the question
May 23, 2007 - 15:47 ET by LionKingWay to answer my question.
Oh I did; You just didn't l
May 23, 2007 - 15:53 ET by balboaOh I did; You just didn't like the reply.
balboa...clarify
May 23, 2007 - 16:00 ET by LionKingHow and when did you answer the following question:
How is the use of the word fag degrading or hateful?
It doesn't get any more straight-forward than that.
And once again we stray from
May 23, 2007 - 16:09 ET by TruthMongerAnd once again we stray from the salient point - which is that hetrosexual ACTS and homosexual ACTS are ACTIONS which require CHOICE just like when I put my left foot forward I CHOOSE TO DO SO...Got it, people...?
The decision to have gay sex
May 23, 2007 - 17:52 ET by balboaThe decision to have gay sex is a choice, but being attracted to someone of your own gender isn't, IMO. I'm attracted to women. If I try, with all my might, I can't choose to be gay.
Bal I'm glad you can admit th
May 23, 2007 - 20:27 ET by TruthMongerBal I'm glad you can admit that. But attraction still leads to a behavior. No one can "be gay" all the time - they can only commit gay acts frequently. There is a big difference.
You're attracted to women and you have only enacted heterosexual behavior so far. But even though you're not feeling attracted to men you could still choose to have sex with a man. This would then "make" you a homosexual - that's how some people phrase it - i don't like to phrase it that way because it sounds like a state of being when it's only an act - and it's the act that "makes" you that way - not you're feelings about men or women...
Incidentally, just thinking sinful thoughts is also an act - Jimmy Carter was once quoted as "committing adultery in his heart." That was a sinful act that "made" him an "adulterer" in the eyes of God. Homosexuality is sinful action (thoughts or real physical actions with your bodies) - it's not really a state of being like "being gay," just like committing adultery is actions and not really a state of being...
balboa...waiting
May 23, 2007 - 16:26 ET by LionKingbalboa...still no answer
A guy's gotta eat sometime.
May 23, 2007 - 17:53 ET by balboaA guy's gotta eat sometime.
"Fag" is commonly known as an insulting term for homosexuals, in the same vein as spic, wop, etc.
balboa ...still not an answer
May 24, 2007 - 17:11 ET by LionKingFrom wiki: "Faggot or fag, in modern North American and Australian English usage, is a generally pejorative term for a gay or effeminate man. Its use has spread to varying extents elsewhere in the English-speaking world."
It merely is term which expresses disapproval. Just because I do not approve of this life-style, does not mean that I hate the person. Actually, I have been taught to hate the sin, love the sinner.
Your gay friends call each ot
May 23, 2007 - 15:43 ET by j. frank wilson@MightyMouth [above]: Your gay friends call each other "sodomite?" That's weird...
Yeah, but only when they wa
May 23, 2007 - 15:57 ET by MightyMouthYeah, but only when they wanted to be hateful and degrading. I've seen it used here in a descriptive way, sort of... Not really defending it's use but just saying...
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
First of all, I never cease
May 23, 2007 - 17:58 ET by JasonCFirst of all, I never cease to be amused and disgusted by the belief of some white people that they can use the word "nigger" because rappers and a small portion of the black community does.
Calling gay people in general "fag" and saying it's okay because you saw some gay guys calling each other fag in a bar or during an argument is hardly a solid justification.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
Oh no, JC, we're wrong. LionK
May 23, 2007 - 18:02 ET by balboaOh no, JC, we're wrong. LionKing tells me that "fag" isn't a hateful term.
Which is why...
May 23, 2007 - 18:41 ET by Mr. BishopYour astonishment at the use of the word nigger, is the entire reason that that black people get away with using it, while white people are crucified for the thought of it. It's a word... nothing more. The only people that find it offensive, are the emotionally insecure people that blow a gasket about its usage. Your defense of someone in the black community using it, while still condemning white people for using it, is the only astonishing thing so far on the subject.
As for fag, queer, or any number of words that are used to describe someone who is gay... same rules apply. My younger brother, he is gay, has told us in his family specifically... that he doesn't mind us using the word(s) in referring to him because we understand something about the words that you do not -- they are words. They're just words. He doesn't like it when other people use them because their intent of the word usage is that of trying to hurt someone with the usage. To me, this philosophy is a point in the right direction... but still, ultimately incorrect in thought. The only people that can be hurt by the usage of a word, are those that find it "offensive". And the reason those that find it offensive, have a problem with it, are because they are insecure with themselves. My brother's opinion on the subject matter of usage of the word in the family ranks, is evidence of this. He is secure in who he is with us, as a family -- but obviously, he's not as secure outside the family.
The bottome line on this is, stop trying to b*tch about someone using one word, or the other -- they're just words.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
So why does NB restrict perso
May 23, 2007 - 18:47 ET by j. frank wilsonSo why does NB restrict personal attacks and insults (sometimes)? We can call you every name in the book and that will be swell with you?
Gosh
May 23, 2007 - 18:54 ET by Mr. BishopSurely you must have noticed two things:
1. The national movement towards politically correctness.
2. I am not an admin of this site.
The former point, I believe is the reason that NB restricts, or attempts to, personal attacks. On the latter, I have no ability to say, "Go ahead... insult away..."
What I can say, is I don't care what you or anyone else calls me. It doesn't bother me, what I am called.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
Is anyone actually reading my
May 23, 2007 - 18:55 ET by JasonCIs anyone actually reading my posts. I thought it was clear that my point is that you're justifying using the words "nigger" or "fag" based on the fact that a few members of the black or gay community use them. Seriously, conservatives get all worked up about gangster rap and then say that Snoop's use of "nigger" justifies their own use of it.
Yes, it's just a word, fair enough. But in our culture, using it indiscriminately or pejoratively, regardless of your philosophical feelings about it, is going to cause you problems. And the people using "fag" on this board, I'm afraid, were certainly not doing it out of sensitivity or camaraderie; this is particularly obvious when the epithet is used in a post about how gay rights are stupid and gays should just CHOOSE to be straight.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
Not at all
May 23, 2007 - 19:00 ET by Mr. BishopI did read your post. I am not attempting to justify anything. I am merely pointing out to you, that any insistance that it is somehow okay to ignore what the black community says, then jump on someone that is white, for using the same word... is just ludicrous.
The same goes for the words that describe someone who is gay.
Your insistance that my usage of a word, regardless of my intentions, is going to cause me problems, is somewhat of the problem that this country is faced with. My usage of a word should not cause me problems. Insistance that it might, is good, sound advice on your part -- however, it ignores the problem, and just covers it up with my not being allowed to use a word. The problem is not the word usage -- the problem is with the insecurities that people have concerning the usage of the word. In fact, on the issue of the word fag -- you are not a gay man, if I read correctly. If you are not... why are you concerned about the word usage? My guess is, you will say that you are concerned about it hurting someone's feelings that is gay, or something along those lines. However, it is not up to you to make that decision for everyone. I'm not excusing the word usage, in any means -- I am merely stating that it should not be an issue, since it is just a word.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
So if I'm understanding you c
May 23, 2007 - 19:06 ET by balboaSo if I'm understanding you correctly, it's now OK to use any slur?
Whatever floats
May 23, 2007 - 19:11 ET by Mr. BishopI have said repeatedly, and always have, you can say whatever you wish around me. I did not say the country accepts this. I did not say this site accepts this. What I did say, is that it should not be a problem because they're just words. The only people that find words offensive, are those that think there is something offensive about them. The only people that think there is something offensive about words, are those that are, in some way, insecure about themselves. When JasonC began this discussion on the use of the words in question -- he was not doing it, I am sure because of his insecurities (whether he is insecure or not, is anyone's guess). He was doing it because he was concerned about the word usage offending someone the words might "target", if you will. The only "targetted" people that would find the word usage offensive, are those that are insecure about themselves, or the quality the word is "targetting".
Use an slur against me? By all means, I don't care in the slightest.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
Well if only everyone else we
May 23, 2007 - 19:22 ET by balboaWell if only everyone else were as evolved as you. People are hurt by insults. That's just human nature. I'd say how long they're upset is connected to how secure / insecure they might be, but initially I don't think it says much more than that you're human.
Okay
May 23, 2007 - 19:34 ET by Mr. BishopAnd? So, you think that it's human nature to coddle people until they die? That's what you're trying to say, no? Coddling makes people unable to handle reality. The reality is, people are cruel by nature. Letting words bother you, when so much more can actually hurt you... that's just plain stupid on a cosmic scale.
People can only be hurt by insults, if they let them. It's not the same as a physical blow, where people can block out the pain with extreme effort. An insult is a word, that only the insecure find to be a problem. Your attempt at sarcasm in your first sentence was noted, however -- and I must add -- I am not more evolved then anyone else... I just don't care what people say about me. It's called being secure in myself. I don't give a damn what someone calls me. I'm not more evolved... Self-awareness is what makes me unable to care about what someone says -- not evolution. So... go ahead, insult away -- it doesn't bother me.
And in closing, I might add -- you asked me. I answered you... if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
I never said people should be
May 23, 2007 - 22:55 ET by balboaI never said people should be coddled. I just don't think refraining from using slurs is "coddling." You might call it "being nice."
If I don't like the answer, don't ask the question? That's kinda pointless. I don't like your answer, but it's not like it's gonna ruin my day. And, again, it's a nice sentiment to say letting words bother you is "plain stupid on a cosmic scale," but it's unrealistic.
Hardly
May 24, 2007 - 01:52 ET by Mr. BishopExplain to me then, how it is that letting words bothering you being stupid on a cosmic scale, is a nice sentiment, but unrealistic? I'd really like to know this. You are only responsible for your own actions. You cannot, in any way, be responsible for the actions of someone else. As such, you letting yourself be told, that using a word is hurtful, is you letting yourself be herded like a sheep.
As for your exception to coddling -- no, you did not say that people need to be coddled, and I never said you did. I asked you if people should be coddled. Your own words to effect that people have their feelings hurt (Oh, poo...), led me to that obvious conclusion that you insinuated. I asked you if that is what you were trying to say. You think that refraining from alleged slurs is not coddling? How naive can you be to think that? By treading on glass, on your toes, your entire life with regards to language, you create the situation of coddling. Coddle is defined as, "to treat tenderly; nurse or tend indulgently; pamper". By the definition, including the breakdown of every word listed in the definition, coddling is exactly what you are suggesting we do. You are suggesting that we not say a word because someone might find it offensive. That is just ludicrous. It's a word, nothing more.
In closing -- did I say that my answer would ruin your day? No, I said that if you don't like my answer, don't ask the question. You are the one that took exception to me saying that only the insecure find words offensive, not me. You didn't like that answer, so you got slightly miffed about it, when you posted your sarcastic response to me in the first sentence. I will say it again: Only the insecure find words offensive. If you find a word offensive, then I would suggest that you take a look at yourself, and see what you are insecure about. If you suggest that you are not insecure about anything, then you cannot possibly find words offensive. If you do find them offensive, you have to be insecure on some level -- or else these words would not be offensive to you.
By the way, just as a bit of an aside -- I do not use these words that are talked about, on a regular basis. I use nigger when talking to my black friends (course, they call me a pasty white cracker, and I laugh), and I use fag to talk to my brother -- to which he laughs. Too bad you and others have this insecurity about yourselves. While the taunt is extremely childish, it's very appropriate, "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..." Try it sometime -- just think of them as just words, without the ability to hurt, and any power that you have given these words, will dissolve.
__________________________________________________________
If homosexuality is genetic, then it must be a birth defect. If it is a birth defect, then stem cell research might provide a cure.
You think that refraining fro
May 24, 2007 - 14:00 ET by balboaYou think that refraining from alleged slurs is not coddling? How naive can you be to think that?
I don't use these slurs. I don't think that my friends would accuse me of having coddled them because I haven't. "C'mon! Call me a wetback! Stop coddling me!"
If someone called me a cracker, I wouldn't care. If someone called a black person a "nigger" in an effort to insult them, I would find it offensive. In other words, I'm not worried about me being insulted, but others using the words in an attempt to insult and deride that person.
From the man who quotes the O
May 23, 2007 - 15:28 ET by dscottFrom the man who quotes the OT for a tag line??? You know, you liberals really have some nerve to claim righteousness, call us homophobes when we disagree with their behavior and then try to quote the Bible.
Here, argue with the Bible: Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
So smart alex are you going to call God a Homophobe???? If you have the nerve to, then I can call you an intolerant anti-religious bigot.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
There's nothing wrong with di
May 23, 2007 - 15:42 ET by balboaThere's nothing wrong with disagreeing with homosexual behavior.
Not according to liberals and
May 23, 2007 - 15:54 ET by dscottNot according to liberals and chief among them, Ted Kennedy said on the Senate floor last year, our disagreement in speaking out on same sex marriage is a "hate crime". So the lines have been drawn, the day that such a bill becomes law, I will be the first one to go to the Police station and tell them I am against homosexuality and same sex marriage, I will publicly defy them to arrest me and then fight their anti-religious bigotry to the Supreme Court.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
If you want to call it wron
May 23, 2007 - 17:27 ET by JasonCIf you want to call it wrong from a religious or personal perspective, be my guest. But sack up and don't obfuscate the fact that you just plain don't like gays with this convenient rhetoric about it being a choice when you have no evidence for that.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
We love gays - you could care
May 23, 2007 - 17:30 ET by TruthMongerWe love gays - you could care less about them - not very loving...
Committing a sex act with someone is a choice - this is not rocket science...
Funny that you say you love
May 23, 2007 - 17:36 ET by JasonCFunny that you say you love them, because if I believed for one second that it's a choice, I would resolve right now to never be gay, for fear of ever running into someone like you in person.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
My gay friends seem to be jus
May 23, 2007 - 20:47 ET by TruthMongerMy gay friends seem to be just fine so far...
I mean seriously, I know an
May 23, 2007 - 17:30 ET by JasonCDoesn't the psychological/behaviorist position that's been written about since Kinsey make a little more sense than "It's the gay gene!" vs. "No, it's a choice!"
???
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
Your points are well taken, w
May 23, 2007 - 15:42 ET by j. frank wilson@JasonC [above]: Your points are well taken, well presented - and 100% correct!
And jfrank and jasonc have 10
May 23, 2007 - 16:25 ET by TruthMongerAnd jfrank and jasonc have 100% ignored my point above - which I can happily repost for you:
Hetrosexual ACTS and homosexual ACTS are ACTIONS which require CHOICE just like when I put my left foot forward I CHOOSE TO DO SO...
Truth, they must ignore you
May 23, 2007 - 16:32 ET by MightyMouthTruth, they must ignore your question because admitting it's validity would weaken their lame "I didn't choose to be straight either..." argument.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
MM- They must be googling for
May 23, 2007 - 16:35 ET by TruthMongerMM- They must be googling for the next pro-gay talking point:)!
What are their so-called &quo
May 23, 2007 - 16:41 ET by mattmWhat are their so-called "well presented" and "correct" arguments?
All I see is basically: "You are a homophobic meany who was raised by Nazis to hate gays who can't help what they do because they were born that way..."
Or, "you disagree with me, so you are the defective one..." That's the logic of kindergarteners.
And exactly what's so-lame
May 23, 2007 - 16:39 ET by sarcasmoAnd exactly what's so-lame about not having chosen to be straight? I was born this way, attracted to females. I fail to see why the fact that particular sex acts with them or (hypothetically assuming I'd be able, which is a dubious assumption at best) with men is a choice makes any difference. I can't choose to be gay, and I don't ever recall choosing to want sex only with females. I fail to see your point, so responding to it is a bit tough...
JMR
Sarc, you can choose to do ga
May 23, 2007 - 16:44 ET by TruthMongerSarc, you can choose to do gay sex acts - you just don't...get it?
There is no such things as being a hetero or homosexual - we are all just human and we can choose all kinds of sex acts...
Agreed. The act of sex is a
May 23, 2007 - 17:01 ET by MightyMouthAgreed. The act of sex is a choice (unless of course you are forced). And btw sarc, many gay guys are very attracted (as in recognize beauty, sensuality) to women (especially hot ones). They just choose to be with a man. In fact some are literally Jealous of Women and try to become like them in a varity of ways.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The way I see it is this. H
May 23, 2007 - 16:52 ET by mattmThe way I see it is this. Humans are by nature heterosexual. "Choice" doesn't really enter into it when it comes to the natural heterosexual attraction since that's what biology has programmed you to have.
I think "choice" is a bad choice of words. But it came about as a reaction to the claim that homosexuality is biologically caused, as if that invalidates any of the moral or sociological arguments against it, or at least against treating it as if it were the equivalent of being Chinese, or freckle-faced.
On the other hand, if it isn't biologically caused, or if it could scientifically be shown that it's a biologic mistake of some kind (like albinism or something), then that would destroy the gay rights movement's goal to "normalize" and inculcate homosexuality into society. This is why they resort to charges of hate and homophobia when someone disagrees with their arguments.
I'm a "fundie" who
May 23, 2007 - 17:12 ET by TruthMongerI'm a "fundie" who actually believes homosexual desire is genetic - we all have a sinful nature...
Just because I desire to do something doesn't mean I can just do it...otherwise I probably would have killed a few people and robbed a few banks by now...
I was just trying to explain
May 23, 2007 - 17:39 ET by mattmI was just trying to explain to Sarc how I see it regarding his question as to why the "choose to be straight" argument is "lame."
If heterosexuality or being "straight" is the natural thing, then you can't "choose" to be straight, you just are... On the contrary, the argument that "you just are" doesn't apply to being "gay" because homosexuality is not the natural, biological state of humans.
Whether you disagree with those points or not, the logic should be clear.
One of the problems with your
May 23, 2007 - 18:22 ET by j. frank wilsonOne of the problems with your post is that being gay is a natural, biological state of humans. It will always be a small percentage, but it will always be there.
jfrank - sin is natural, yes
May 23, 2007 - 20:50 ET by TruthMongerjfrank - sin is natural, yes - that doesn't make it acceptable behavior...
Truth, what the HELL are yo
May 23, 2007 - 17:24 ET by JasonCTruth, what the HELL are you talking about? The majority of text in my post is devoted to addressing your claim that it's a choice, for which you have no ground other than that it flatters your belief that gay people are wilfully evil.
And I wasn't googling talking points, I was out grilling, in direct violation of the MsM's latest orders.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
JasonC, I have no ground that
May 23, 2007 - 17:28 ET by TruthMongerJasonC, I have no ground that choosing to have sex with a man like me or a woman who isn't like me is a choice I can make right now? Please enlighten me then...
You have the choice about who
May 23, 2007 - 17:33 ET by JasonCYou have the choice about who you actually sleep with. You have no choice, I would guess, as to which gender you're attracted to.
"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
I believe many people do not
May 23, 2007 - 20:56 ET by TruthMongerI believe many people do not - but burning desires do not necessarily justify actions...
Homosexuality is not about desire. It's about behavior, actions - homosexual acts - not feelings or desire...
You are confused. The act
May 23, 2007 - 18:17 ET by j. frank wilson@TruthMonger (there's a mis-nomer!) [above]: You are confused. The acts are a conscious choice. However, whether one is attracted to men or women is - for most people - how they were born. Throughout recorded history, a fairly consistent percentage of the population is gay. That's nature. How people act upon their attractions is up to them - the attractions themselves they are born with.
How many babies are born each year with male and female sex organs? How many times do the doctors have to decide (generally without really consulting with the parents) whether this baby is a boy or a girl? More than you think.
Here's some fodder for the scientic conversation:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/26/health/main1753553.shtml
I find it most interesting how the whole topic of gay folks manages to scare so very many people - perhaps threaten is a better word.
PS: Please don't shout. It's very rude.
Not going to get into the arg
May 23, 2007 - 18:31 ET by RJNot going to get into the argument, because it's evident that it's just more rehashing of the old "nature or nuture" arguments and cannot be proven either way with existing science.
However, in scanning the thread, it's seems to me that it's the "nature" lobby that has been exhibiting the most fear....and who seem most threatened by the disagreements with their position.
What is the point of posting
May 23, 2007 - 18:44 ET by j. frank wilsonWhat is the point of posting to tell the world you're not going to post?
Or did you just want to share with us that your gaydar shows a blip?
That's another thing I've noticed, j. faux
May 23, 2007 - 18:48 ET by RJThat's another thing I've noticed, j. faux. Your reading comprehension stinks. By all means, try again....maybe you'll get it the next time.
I'm bummed - I thought you pr
May 23, 2007 - 18:54 ET by j. frank wilsonI'm bummed - I thought you promised to stay away...Good thing you didn't have a point I was supposed to get.
That's two "no comprendes" in a row, j. faux
May 23, 2007 - 19:01 ET by RJGee, I'm bummed, too, j. faux. I had hopes that you'd re-read and "comprende" this time, but that's two in a row now. It's no surprise, though. I've seen you go through an entire thread without a single "comprende." ;^>
Many Christians say that gay
May 23, 2007 - 21:05 ET by TruthMongerMany Christians say that homosexuality is not genetic - I'm a Christian who believes it is as a part of sin...and it's a crappy deal for people who have those strong feelings that they must resist - some would say "why me, God?" to which God usually replies "why not you?" Life is a random crap shoot and many of us get a really crappy deal...
Homosexuality is about actions - not feelings. I don't have gay feelings but I could have gay sex - that would make me a homosexual...the physical actions are the key - not my feelings...
As for your doctors choices i could assert they were influenced by God regarding their decisions - and there are certainly many abnormal variances on gender...doesn't really matter on the topic of gay behavior...
Correlation is not causation,
May 24, 2007 - 14:51 ET by dscottCorrelation is not causation, you are engaging in a logical fallacy. The consisent percentage of any activity whether it be homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, adultery or what have you is irrelevent. In every period of human history there are people making choices to engage in a behavior. Drawing justification or rationalization of any behavior because some element of the population is doing it is not valid.
BTW- "Throughout recorded history," You are making an assertion that studies have been done throughout every time period on homosexuality???? You have no basis to make such an unfounded claim. And that's on top of claiming the percentage is consistent. Liberals and their false assertions of authority.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius