Count on Toilet Paper to jump in with an anti-American rant in response to another lame WhichWay question.

I'd really like to hear TP's and WW's explanation of what they think. I am very disappointed that although the democrats and the left have been screaming we have to learn whyour enemies hate and want to destroy us for so many years, they have never apparently answered the question themselves.

 How lame is that ? How many years can you scream that someone else must do the work of figuring out what needs to be known, yet never once after hundreds of answers freely given, ever state your own conclusion ?

 It is very frustrating really. I don't know if those two actually have formed an idea of why. I understand TP was being a smart aleck with his first reply in the thread, but is that all we can ever have from these types of inquisitors ?

 They've had YEARS to form their conclusions. I think it's high time they told us what they are, instead of constantly asking everyone else - as if the rest of us hadn'tformed an opinion yet, in all these years.

 I think we should all encourage themto share their answer. If we're all wrong in our ideas about it, they had better tell us what we're missing, so that the proper corrective actions can be taken.

 I'd sure think that would be something someone for peace and justice would do.

Well thanks for not bailing WhichWing. Now onto the argument:

{ I posted those videos from the debate because I agree with what is said in them. I think terrorists want to attack America because of our intervention in their countries.]

Ok, not a bad argument so far, I won't disagree, but will note the terrorists want to attack their own governments, and indeed have. So, you'd have to stipulate that fact.

 [And throughout the world really.]

Nope. Not us throughout the world really. We aren't in Russian Islam - but the Russians have their hands full. Not in Africa(wholly)- where terrorist governments go on jihad slaughters. Abu Sayeff in the Phillipines - not USA's fault. Sorry, - NOT throughout the whole world really - EXCEPT true of the terrorists attacking OTHERS - pretty much throughout the whole world.

[ I reject the idea that they hate our freedom. That is silly.]

Ahh, but it is their rhetoric. When they have control (as they did in Afghanistan) their rule is wicked indeed. They have demanded we not change their totalitarian slaughter ways - therefore it is true, not silly. Constitutional Republics are not compatible with Islamic governments. Therefore they do hate our "freedoms" because it will destroy them and their religion as supreme ruler of their nations.

 [Our oppresion prevents their freedom.]

I see. So, before we were on the scene (about 200 years ago) were they free then ? LOL Another BAD line of yours.

[ I reject the idea that their religion dictates it, and that's why they do it. ]

Well, they certainly claim to be doing it in the name of Allah and religion. In fact they demand a FATWAH before attacking. I guess you're saying they would do it without their religion, but indeed their religion joined with the State apparatus is what has caused most of the opression on them for centuries, long before the USA was around.

 I hear what you're saying, you don't like "easy simple phrases" - but the ones you don't like are a lot more accurate than yours > our opression prevents their freedom <. NO, sorry, your phrase is much worse than the ones you complain of.

[ What about China? Mexico? And the rest of the non-Muslim world? ]

China has been attacked by muslims within, whole provinces have gone into muslim vs nonmuslim riots.- RECENTLY.

Mexico I'm not sure I have heard of anything there, but then the general crime alone would make any muslim attack negligible.

 The rest of the world is filled with muslim on non-muslim attacks -especially AFRICA - and very bad in Indonesia.

[ I reject the notion that understanding their motives is a "garbage line." ]

Well, no problem with that. I agree. It comes from frustration, though, since having a discussion about what it is, has been like pulling teeth with you people. Instead of presenting your side, you've goaded and ridiculed the other. Now, that you have finally said what you believe, the discussion can begin.

[ If I'm punching you in the face repeatedly, everyday, eventually you would want to know why. ]

Bin Laden and the rest have always said why. It hasn't been a mystery. You think everyone here hasn't heard the Palestinian whine ? Bin Laden, the man who declared war on America is a very old book at this point. Yassar Arafat tried to takeover JORDAN, so he didn't just want Isrraeli land.

[And until you stopped coming into my backyard and telling me how to raise my kids, I would continue. ]

Ahh, but how has that been a decades long issue ? You mean the USA's fight for civil rights for other nations for the past decades since WW2 is the real problem ? Amnesty International is bad ?

 Do you REALLY mean by that, "bullying their governments"?  What does that really mean ? You're making a strange simile there, but I'll play along for kicks.

 I note Ron Paul is a liar when he claims " We installed the Shah". ( The succession of the Shah was a round a long time before we "re-installed one that had been illegally removed in an Islamic coup" in his reference.

[You're solution would be to "eliminate" me. ]

Uhh, no, the solution would be to make sure you stopped murdering and raping your children, and to make you give back your neighbors garage and his automobile.

[But then my brother would proceed to punch you in the face everyday. You have solved nothing.]

Umm, that is, if you were still in charge. More likely, your brother wouldn't like your murdering and raping, and would boot you to the curb, and thank USA. Of course then, you'd have to fight like a dog to the death( instead of murdering your brethren like dogs), or accept the new fairer and more just head of the household.

[Rimsky, you shouldn't forget that you are advocating the elimination of your fellow human beings. ]

You shouldn't forget the terrorists advocate total elimination of infidels, and total elimination of the middle eastern governments currently in place. The USA has advocated HUMAN RIGHTS for the opressed - ( if you knew what the hell you were talking about - you could claim Bin Laden has demanded rights for opressed muslims from middle eastern governments - as he HATES them... but Bin Ladens example of rule with the Taliban is certainly no better - just as bad - and likely worse. I think bin ladens reign might be the worst kind of horror - any info that it wouldn't be ?)

[You say that is what they want to do to us, so you are now no better than they are.]

Umm, not really man. Any government we put back in place is better than the Middle Eastern dictator governments, and better than binnies and the Talibans. The people of Iran have been begging for the good ol days of the Shah for 2 decades now. ( NOW >no music, no drinking - and the whip for their backs - but under the Shah they had some freedoms )

[Understanding why they attack us is the key to stopping it.]

Umm, not really. We understand full well, it's just that we aren't about to make sure Binny gets put in power over there - because noone really thinks it would be pretty - except Binny himself, and the Taliban is a perfect example if it.

 I do not believe the terrorists are true reformers, but just another worse faction from the same old murder and overthrow factions that have been there forever.

 I think the closest you came to a half truth was your second sentence, which I don't reject out of hand.

I'm amazed at how so few of my blogmates think things out, except superficially.

First off, which terrorists ? Clearly here we infer Islamic terrorists. Is there a reason Muslim fanatics have turned to terrorism ? If we need a certain reason, it's surely because on a battlefield, all their arrayed power is puny compared to the power we can bring to bear. Terror therefore is another alternative for them. It actually works, against ANY powerful enemy. For ONE suicidal "martyr" they can collect (figuratively) maybe as many as a hundred scalps (victims at one site).

Why America ? It isn't only our country they hate. We're merely the tip of that iceberg (I keep mixing metaphors). They abhor all western countries, with all their men, women and children. There's a truly basic reason for that hatred. To the Islamic fanatic, we represent what is EVIL about the world. --Not just Christians; all western culture. And they follow a false prophet who denounces everything ostensibly evil, and embraces what is absolutely true and indisputable: God is good. Allah is great, we obey Him, He loves us. They see these things in black and white, because that's the fanatical way of seeing everything. No uncertainty.

We are EVIL. They are on the side of Allah, GOOD. They carry around this false notion of the nature of things from infancy to the grave. When they hate you and me, it's not really America they hate; it's all that is evil.

Of course, we all hate what's evil. None of us is quite fanatical about crushing evil out of existence because we haven't followed false prophets. (Not always.) Our God is a God of LOVE and mercy. He's willing even to give His only-begotten Son for our salvation. That's infinite love. We hate evil on the basic premise that it destroys peace and love. Evil strikes out even at God. (Regarding this truth, Muslims are absolutely correct. Evil offends Allah.) This hatred of whatever offends God, whatever extinguishes love in the world, is what makes great saints. For love there will arise souls like Mother Theresa, who entered the Black Hole of Calcutta offering relief from despair to the most afflicted people on the planet. She was there out of love for Jesus Christ. She was only one; a famous saint. In fact there are thousands. Possibly hundreds of thousands.

Yet a Muslim terrorist will deem her unworthy to be spared from their explosives, their hatred. Even if they admire her; she's part of the opposing culture, Christianity. They can't see beyond that. Anyway, Mother Theresa would merely be an exception to the rule, for a terrorist. She isn't as evil as they perceive Bush to be, or us, all rank and file Americans. Their hatred for EVIL, as they've been indoctrinated to see it, is why they must always hate us. If we were GOOD, as they judge goodness (Islam) then they would love us.

WW, I don't know what videos you're talking about, so I'm jumping ahead of that.  Our intervention in their countries?  What do you call 9/11?  You and so many others forget so quickly.  Throughout the world?  Not true.  But even where we are a presence it's been for good not to dominate.  I don't care what the terrorist hate or don't hate.   They are terrorists.  That's all I need to know.  Oppression?  Get Real!  Again, I don't care what their religion dictates or doesn't dictate..  they've attacked and killed Americans, unprovoked.  If you punch me in the face repeatedly, everyday, and I don't do anything in defense or to prevent it from happening again (and again, I don't give a rats as why) then I'm most likely dead.  Oh, by the way, I'm not going to punch you or your brother or your kid or anybody in your entourage, unless you provoke me.  Another thing, I don't believe that you are evil..  misguided, maybe even severely misguided, but I don't have any reason to believe that you are an evil terrorist, so guess what, I'm pretty much going to let you do your thing.  Same for your brother.  Terrorists are evil, and bent on nothing but total dominiation, whether it stems from their so-called religion or not.  They will kill us if we don't kill them first.  WW, have a nice day.