Gun Control: Clueless in Chicago

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A curious editorial appeared on the Chicago Tribune website, written by their “senior correspondent”. In keeping with a classic anti-gun-rights gambit, the author claims to be speaking for everybody besides Texas when declaring that a new debate has begun about gun control due to the Virginia Tech shooting, while attempting to stigmatize and ostracize Texans:

HOUSTON -- Much of the rest of the nation might have begun debating whether new gun-control measures are in order in the wake of the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history at Virginia Tech last month. But here in Texas, a place where guns seem a part of the state’s very DNA, folks have got some other ideas.1

Suffering a dearth of factual information to support his stance, the data that was cited should give one pause as to the competence of one who purportedly represents the Tribune’s more experienced staff as well as “much of the rest of the nation”:

Nearly 250,000 Texans held licenses to carry concealed handguns at the end of 2005, the most recent year for which official figures are available.2

Actually, more recent data was available as early as March 28, 2007. As of the end of 2006, there were 258,162 active concealed carry licenses in Texas.3 Even if technically untrained in web searching, this supposedly “senior” writer could have asked a co-worker to download this data for him: after all, the Tribune does have its own website. Moreover, the author refers to legislation that was signed into law a month after the 2006 data became available online; this was not a case of needing to go with what was available due to deadlines:

Another law, signed by the governor this week, prohibits law-enforcement officials from confiscating legally owned weapons during a state of emergency -- an idea inspired by reports of police seizing guns from New Orleans residents in the chaotic days following Hurricane Katrina in 2005.4

This bill was signed by the governor on April 27, 2007.5

Gun Control Fundamentalism

With such inattention to detail, it should come as no surprise that the author justifies creating a tempest in the anti-rights teapot, citing unsubstantiated verbiage from his favorite anti-rights organization:

But of all the new pro-gun initiatives, it was the governor’s suggestion this week that access to guns be expanded in public places that has provoked the most controversy…

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington, said Perry’s idea is a recipe for more mayhem, especially because ordinary citizens, unlike police, are not trained to use weapons in the midst of a crisis.6

Between 1976 and 2004, only 2.0% of law enforcement officer (LEO) justifiable homicides occurred during a criminal attack on a citizen, while 50.7% occurred during an attack on a LEO (self-defense). Meanwhile, 27.6% of citizen justifiable homicides were to defend against attack, but 60.9% came while disrupting crime, including defense of others at risk of forcible felonies, compared to 23.2% LEO justifiable homicides disrupting crimes in progress.7 A legally-armed citizen is far more likely to be on hand to protect other people when a crime is occurring.

In his book The Bias Against Guns, John Lott examined the relationship between gun availability and multiple murders. He concluded:

If right-to-carry laws allow citizens to limit the amount of attacks that still take place, the number of persons harmed should fall relative to the number of shootings… And indeed, that is what we find. The average number of people dying or becoming injured per attack declines by around 50 percent.8

Lott also found that both the total number and rate of multiple murders in right-to-carry states are one-third that of restrictive states.9 In an email interview, he clarified by stating:

The simplest numbers showed a 67 percent drop in the number of attacks and about a 79 percent drop in the number of people killed or injured from such attacks. The number of people harmed fell by more than the number of attacks because some attacks that weren’t deterred were stopped in progress by people with guns.

Lott’s data remained at the state level, including “gun-free” zones within that state. How many more lives would have been saved, had victim-disarmament zones not existed?

Last fall, a mentally deranged individual took over an Amish school house, executing three girls and wounding seven more.10 (The Amish are “committed pacifists.”11) Early this year, an off-duty policeman was fortunately on hand to stop a shooter near the beginning of his rampage, but the mall where this took place bans concealed carry.12 Recently, 32 students were murdered at Virginia Tech, a public school.13 Over a year earlier, the Virginia legislature considered a bill allowing concealed carry licensees to carry on campus, but the university fought against it (the bill failed to pass).14 Nearly all mass shootings occur in documented victim disarmament zones, many in government-run schools.

The government has passed laws denying the people’s right to defend themselves in certain public places but has been unable to stop deadly attacks. Yet, anti-gun-rights people fight to disarm us even further in the blind belief that the government will protect us from mass murderers. This makes less sense every time society’s aberrants claim more victims in our “crime-enabled” zones.

Governor Perry’s quote reflects reality:

· Cops rarely arrive in time to halt completion of a crime.

· Armed citizens are a form of social triage against random violence.

· In states where armed citizens are empowered to provide for the common defense, mass homicides are greatly reduced.

Helmke At the Helm

“In a shoot ’em up situation, it’s tough for the person to get their gun quickly, to use it properly, to not become the first person the gunman kills, to not be the person the police think is the bad guy when they do respond,” Helmke said. “Life is not like the movies.”

It is of great curiosity how Helmke suddenly became an expert on the tactical use of firearms. He couldn’t reign in crime while mayor in Fort Wayne, Indiana (1988-2000). During his last five years in office, the national violent crime rate fell 7.0 percentage points faster, murder fell 12.6 more, and rape fell 12.1 faster, while the aggravated assault rate in Fort Wayne actually rose 15.9%, trailing the national index by 38.4 points. In the five years since Helmke left office, Fort Wayne has beaten the national violent crime index by 11.2 percentage points. He can’t even blame his failure on the state criminal justice environment. During his last five years as mayor, Indiana realized a 33.5% drop in the violent crime rate, beating the national index by 7.5 points and leaving Fort Wayne 14.4 points behind the state index.15

Like the Movies?

A man and his wife were in the checkout line at a grocery when two men walked in and headed to the office. After one placed his gun against the manager’s head, the armed citizen drew his handgun and shot the attacker, driving both from the store.16

In another incident, a woman kept her cool when her ex-boyfriend broke in and pointed a shotgun at her. He told her he planned to kill them both, and told her to get dressed. She persuaded him to let her let her dogs out first, which gave her an opportunity to call the police. He caught her doing this and they struggled in the bedroom. She managed to get control of the shotgun and ran into the dining room. When he pursued, she shot him.17

Conclusion

It is curious that the anti gun-violence crowd are wont to say “if it saves a life, it’s worth it,” but remain curiously silent when their criterion is proven to support policies against their wishes. Gun control has become an article of faith, not facts.

About the Author

Howard Nemerov is a columnist for the Texas State Rifle Association’s TSRA Sportsman magazine and is Investigative Analyst for NRA News. He can be reached at HNemerov[at sign]Netvista.net.

Endnotes

[1] Howard Witt, Guns deep in the hearts of Texans, Chicago Tribune, May 3, 2007. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0705021315may03,1,4935844.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

2 Howard Witt, Guns deep in the hearts of Texans, Chicago Tribune, May 3, 2007.

3 Active License Holders and Certified Instructors as of 12/31/2006, Texas Department of Public Safety, downloaded March 28, 2007. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/PDF/ActLicAndInstr/ActiveLicandInstr2006.pdf

4 Howard Witt, Guns deep in the hearts of Texans, Chicago Tribune, May 3, 2007.

5 Actions on SB 112, Texas Legislature Online. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/Actions.aspx?LegSess=80R&Bill=SB112

6 Howard Witt, Guns deep in the hearts of Texans, Chicago Tribune, May 3, 2007.

7 James Alan Fox and Marianne W. Zawitz, Homicide trends in the United States: Trends in justifiable homicide by justification reason, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, last revised on June 29, 2006. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/justifyreasontab.htm

8 John R. Lott, Jr., The Bias Against Guns, page 123.

9 Ibid, page 107.

10 Pennsylvania Police: Amish School is ‘Horrendous Crime Scene’ After Shooting, Fox News, October 2, 2006. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217073,00.html

11 Joe Wittmer, Ph.D., Responds to Questions Regarding the Amish (Installment #1). http://www.holycrosslivonia.org/amish/q_and_a_no1.htm

12 Paul Foy, Off-Duty Cop Helped End Utah Mall Rage, Fox News, February 13, 2007. http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Feb13/0,4670,UtahShooting,00.html

Christopher Smart and Sheena McFarland, Trolley Square: Gun-rights debate gets drawn into aftermath, Salt Lake Tribune, February 14, 2007. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5223644

13 Worst U.S. shooting ever kills 33 on Va. Campus, MSNBC, April 17, 2007. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/

14 Greg Esposito, Laurence Hammack, Gun bill targets colleges, Roanoke Times, January 26, 2006. http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/49915

15 Compiled from FBI data. Email request for spreadsheet.

16 Lori Fullbright, Man Uses Concealed Weapon To Stop Robbery, KOTV, April 11, 2007. http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=124857

17 Woman turns gun on, wounds assailant, Cincinnati Post, April 18, 2006. http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060418/NEWS01/604180380


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Chicago has deeper problems t

Chicago has deeper problems than not being able to research.

In-Uniform, off duty cop, wearing a windbreaker over his uniform shirt, gets mugged, shoots and kills mugger.

Please make sure your train of thought carries freight.

From San Antonio, TX, I am

From San Antonio, TX, I am proud to say I exercise my right under the second ammendment to bear arms. I am trained and ready to go should some wacko feel the need do something stupid. Ron White said it best, "some states are trying to abolish the death penalty, mine is putting in an express line."

"Before I refuse to take your questions...I have a statement.." Ronald Reagan

Yeah, Chicago's biggest probl

Yeah, Chicago's biggest problem is Richard M. Daly (the "M" clearly stands for "Moron").

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

Hey, "Senior Corresponde

Hey, "Senior Correspondent": Kennesaw, Georgia.  Google it.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx.  An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx."  Ronald Reagan

Howard,Thank you for your dil

Howard,

Thank you for your diligence and hard work for all of us here in this country.

It is much appreciated by my family.

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tol

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun ban. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

This was written by Ted Nugent

Rye...Bingo to you and Nugent

Rye...

Bingo to you and Nugent!

My sentiments exactly...always have been.

Thank you for this nugget from Ted too btw.

The sickening thing is that

The sickening thing is that, in this case:

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law
school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a
madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave,
average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

the students with guns, one a civilian and the other an off-duty policeman, held their guns on him and other students rushed him and threw him to the ground, disarming him.   The news story about it made no mention of the other students' guns....it simply reported that a group of students rushed and tackled him.

As has become his custom, Swe

As has become his custom, Sweaty Teddy, the Motor-City Madman, has once more hit the nail squarely on the head. Everything with the anti's is excuses. Never is the root cause addressed. It's the equivalent of putting a band-aid on a decapitated limb, and blaming the knife and not the hand that held it for the damage.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

This reminds me of something

This reminds me of something I read on BBC last night.  Apparently there is a UN embargo on arms to Darfur, but not to the rest of SUDAN.  So the knuckleheads at the UN, who are supposedly concerned about the people of Darfur, have cut off their weapon supply , while continuing to allow the gov of Sudan to be supplied who are in turn arming the Janjaweed raiders.  The UN is now trying to stop the Gov of Sudan from being supplied with weapons.  But it seems this is typical of the gun control crowd.  They blame the weapons while leaving the victims defenseless.  The gun control crowd is the best ally that criminals ever had.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6634639.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6595333.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6641929.stm

Gun control talking points

What are some good responses to gun control advocates who bring up the "huge number" of accidental deaths in gun owner households, and the relatively high murder rate in the U.S. compared to our European counterparts?

Thanks,

The Maryland legislature and

The Maryland legislature and the NRA teamed up several years ago to creat a program where public school kids would take a field trip to a shooting range twice while in school (I think the trips were in 3rd and 6th grade, but I'm not sure).  The purpose of these field trips was to expose kids to firearms safety issues like how to tell if a firearm is loaded or not, what to do if you should find a firearm, how to safely handle a firearm, etc. 

The purpose of these field trips was to de-mystify firearms for kids.  Most kids only see a firearm used in the movies or TV, and when they do come across one they tend to mimic what they've seen, which usually ends up in an accidental shooting.  By educating kids, and allowing them to handle firearms in a safe and controlled setting, the kids get a much better understanding of firearms safety and what they should, and shouldn't do, if they come across one.

The program was piloted in two mainly rural Maryland counties, and was a great success.  The Maryland legislature approved the measure to expand the program to all Maryland counties, but then Governor Parris Glendenning vetoed the measure and ended the program.  His stated reason was that he was concerned about the liability issues of having school children at shooting ranges, but shortly after the veto he was caught on tape at a political event telling someone that there was no way in Hell he would ever be seen supporting anything to do with the NRA.

So, Governor "The Children Come First" Glendenning, the guy who heaped law after law on families requiring kids to wear helmets, pads, and other safety equipment before they could perform just about any outside activity, and justified these laws because "what's more important than the safety of the kids?", nixed a great child protection program because of petty political agendas.

Want to annoy the grab-lobb

Want to annoy the grab-lobby right in their Maryland proving ground? Give a buck or 2 to this guy's group. Not as big as the NRA, but keeps 'em from...er...soiling their own shoes in a complex and very political state.
JMR

Parker ---This would take a f

Parker ---This would take a few hours but I suggest reseaching "accidental "death stats to put things in perspective. For instance, 115 people will die today in auto accidents, 45 due to alcohol. For whatever reason, DC has the highest drunk driving death rate in the US. Also eight motorcycle riders will assume room temperature today. As for the murder rate, if you factor out the gang bangers, the murder rate drops. Remember, the murder rate is not the same as gun related deaths. Violent crime has been going down since about 1991 while it is rising the nanny states around the world. But then I don't think you can't compare cultures and crime, 'cause how they report what skews the results. As for leaving a loaded gun where kids can get at it, there is no excuse. When you have the facts, please report back.

Accidental death

Parker,

I have a number of previous papers with this data. Send me a message here at News Busters with an email and I will get you the data, with references.

Living in Texas, my wife and

Living in Texas, my wife and I have CHL licenses and are very happy that we now have the Castle doctrine and the lastest law that protects against giving out a list of names of those that carry to anyone, especially the news media.

The entire “anti-gun” arg

The entire “anti-gun” argument simply goes to illuminate the attitude the left maintains for total and absolute control of society.  Living where I do, the Wash DC area, I often get to hear their opinions on the gun ownership issues.  DC has barred ALL gun ownership, though that may soon change.  Yet the city continues to be mired in a swamp of violent crime.  The surrounding Maryland and Virginia areas, which allow gun ownership, have lower violent crime rates.  

The rant from the left is always the same.  The reason there is so much violent crime in DC is because felons can get guns in Maryland and Virginia.  True enough.  However, as a DC police officer friend once quipped, “The only thing you need to get a handgun on the streets of DC is EXACT CHANGE.”  I find it funny though that after obtaining their guns, the felons don’t stay in VA and MD, where the citizens might shoot back, to commit crimes.  

That aside, in this statement we see the classic need of the left to exercise absolute, complete and total control over all who surround them.  There can be no debate, no disagreement, and no variance with their personally held opinions, plans and policies.  For the left there is no middle ground.  They live in a world of absolutes.  They are absolutely sure that they are right, and that everyone else is absolutely wrong.

Ask anyone who owns a gun if they think everyone in the country should be forced by law to carry a gun and you will get a very resounding NO!  Gun owners will invariably tell you that if a person does not feel comfortable carrying a weapon they should not be forced to do so.  However, the reverse is not true.  Ask any anti-gunner if they think everyone in the country should be forced by law to surrender their guns and you will get a very resounding YES!  

The left is incapable of looking around them, seeing the repeated failure of their well meaning but tragically naïve policies, and admitting error.  They truly believe that all their blundering failure is always the fault of someone else.  What then is the solution to their repeated failures?  Why, it’s a simple three step plan:

  1. Rigid continuation of the failed polities,
  2. Draconian enforcement of these failed policies, and;
  3. The demonization and silencing of anyone with the audacity to point out their error.  

They are a very frightening bunch.

I live in the People's Republ

I live in the People's Republic of Maryland which has a very high crime rate. Mostly concentrated in Prince George's County and the City of Baltimore. Maryland has very strict gun permit restrictions. The nasty little secret that no one on the left and MSM wants to reveal is that states like Virginia with reasonable right to carry laws have had little or no problem (that I could ever dig up) with someone permitted to carry a firearm. In the state of Virginia I have never even heard of any misuse by someone authorized and permitted to carry much less commit murder or mayhem. I am sure the MSM would be all over it if it had occurred

 

"A mind is a terrible thing." - A comic I forgot the name of.

I used to live in Maryland, a

I used to live in Maryland, and when I realized that Ehrlich was never going to accomplish anything in rolling back gun control, I left for a state that has very reasonable gun control laws.  I often hear from my pals back in MD, who tell me they are putting up a valiant struggle to maintain what they have (forget about making things better), and I have to tell them I think they are trying to empty the ocean with a tin cup.  I don't understand why anyone would want to stay in the state given the taxes, laws, and general surliness of the people, but they keep trying to fight the good fight.

The night we moved to FL, my daughter (who had been raised in MD) and I went to a WalMart to get some essentials like shower curtains, groceries, etc.  As we walked down the isles, shoppers would look at us and say "How's it going?" or "how you'all doing?", and I would say "great" or "fine".  And my daughter asked "do you know these people?"  and I said "nope.  That's just the way folks are down here."  In Maryland you had to think twice before looking someone you didn't know in the eye.  Needless to say, after three years of living down here, she never wants to see MD again.

I would like to make two poin

I would like to make two points about this post.  The first is that the use of the number of concealed carry permits is an invalid means of indicating how well armed a populace is.  I have a CCP and have carried a weapon only once in three years.  I am a member of one of the biggest shooting clubs in the area, and know many people with CCPs, and they don't carry either.  Unless you're in actual danger, the process of carrying about 2.5lbs of steel on your person gets burdensome pretty quickly, and the "glamour" of carrying a concealed weapon quickly gives way to the hinderences and the guns spend more time on the rack than on your person.

My second point is that I see a lot of supposed valid comparisons showing where gun ownership is up, crimes are down.  I live in the greater Jacksonville, FL area (in which I include Clay, Duval, and St. John's Counties), and we are the murder capital of Florida if not the whole South.  Our rate of murders and homicides is twice the national average and almost twice the rates in bigger Florida cities like Miami and Orlando.  This area also accounts for the lion's share of guns sold in the state.  There are numerous gun shops, pawn shops and sporting goods stores that sell guns, and we have 6-10 gun shows a year. 

We have a very easy CCP program, lots of guns, and our murder/homicide rate is amongst the highest in the country.  This is a pretty solid contradiction to the more guns/CCPs = less crime theory, and one might think the gun grabbers are onto something unless you dig just a bit deeper.  Most of the victims of these crimes are poor, black, men, living in the downtown and Northside sections of Jacksonville.  Some people like to equate that the higher incidences of violent crime stem from poverty, hopelessness, lack of jobs, etc., but I've been looking at it from a different angle.   Although this area accounts for a large percentage of gun purchases in Florida, most of the purchasers live in Clay and St. John's Counties, or the west and south sections of Duval county, i.e., they do not live in the high-crime areas.  These counties and areas are also where most of the money is, so it would make sense that this is where most of the crime would be (following the old "I rob banks because that's where the money is" philosophy).  Yet where the guns and the money are most concentrated, crime is at it's lowest, and where the guns and money aren't, the opposite is true.

My take is that poor people living in downtown Jacksonville and the northside area can barely pay for rent and food, so they aren't likely to be able to afford a bunch of guns to protect themselves.  The crooks know this, and since there is little risk to themselves, they target these areas.  If a thug comes to Clay County to rob a house or steal a car, there's a decent chance he's going to get shot.  If a thug robs some poor, unprotected, guy on the northside, there's a good chance the thug will shoot the guy while he puts up a struggle to protect what little he has.  So while on the surface it would appear that increased guns and CCPs contribute to crime, a more thorough analysis of what's happening to whom and where reveals a different situation.

I am so happy that our governor realizes this, and is trying to enact a new anti-murder act that uses taxpayers dollars to get violent fellons off the street and keep them in prision longer, and doesn't waste them on "feel-good" programs that turn cops into gun grabbers, or fund useless buy-back programs, or any other such nonsense.

Is it the amount of guns avai

Is it the amount of guns available that drives up the murder rate or some kind of cultural ethos that the solution to every perceived slight, disagreement or crime is punishable by murder. If someone comes up to you and displays a handgun and wants your money the odds are in this day and age you will be shot anyway even if you give the money. Why does the majority always have to suffer for the acts of a few? Many of our rights have deadly consequences. They just aren't as dramatic as people being gunned down. When the Government steps in you wont even have a choice as to whether you want to carry or not and I don't think the crime rate will go down when your gun is taken away. 

"A mind is a terrible thing." - A comic I forgot the name of.

I think it comes down to the

I think it comes down to the mindset of the criminal.  A criminal usually has nothing more on his or her mind than getting what they want... usually something of value.  What they want more than anything is to have a victim be passive and give them what they want.  In our area, the places that offer the best victim opportunities, i.e, individuals with cash on them, an ATM card that'll net the criminal $400-$500, or jewelry are also places of high concentrations of gun owners and CCP holders.  Even though the actual likelihood of encountering a CCP holder who's actually carrying a gun are quite low, it generates enough of a threat to force the criminal to go after victims who yield less in regards to things of value, but who are also much less likely to be armed.  Unfortunately, these people are much more likely to more aggressive in defending what they own as they can't afford to lose much, hence a lot of poor people are getting shot.

When faced with a criminal, w

When faced with a criminal, wishing me harm, frankly I do not care about their mind, I only care that the pistol I cary with me daily is in good working order and that I shoot straight.  Just because someone is poor does not give them the right to take what I have worked for and harm me in the process.  Maybe some day you will get the opportunity to question your assailant up close, but then again, I don't think he will have the time or patience, he will just kill you.

Also, contrary to your data that it is the circumstances in which the criminal lives which drives them to crime, it really is the spiritual state of the indevidual. 

You actually scared me for a

You actually scared me for a minute there, Bruzilla. I thought I was watching a guns = bad scenario unfolding in an area I am also very familiar with. My parents lived for years in Mandarin in Jacksonville and I have other family in Orange Park. A good friend runs a gun/pawn shop on 103rd St.

You are absolutely correct that when only looking at the surface numbers in this case, more guns does indeed seem to equal more crime. Most of the anti's rants are the same (those that have any basis in fact, that is). On the surface, they can be often be seen to have a point. Of course this requires one to see the numbers without the benefit of a drop of common sense.

It's almost a given that low income urban areas dominate violent crime statistics. I won't even open the argument on why this is. Let's just say it is, and let it go at that. You identified one point - poor people can't afford a gun. Some other points are:

Criminals tend to haunt familiar territory, in other words, close to where they live. Middle class and up don't tend to roam the streets mugging people. Therefore it follows that many (most) violent criminals, committing their crimes in poor neighborhoods, are poor themselves, and probably live near where they "work".

Criminals, for the reasons listed above, have a pretty good idea that those they are wont to prey upon will be unarmed. It has been scientifically determined that a criminal's greatest fear is the potential that their intended victim may be armed. Therefore, it follows that they will operate where the chances of an armed victim are as low as possible.

And common sense (which is, unfortunately, becoming more uncommon) is that a legally armed, law abiding person can, and will,  if given the opportunity, take out a psycho bent on murdering people.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

I always like to direct peopl

I always like to direct people to this site that records how private citizens stop crime with their firearms. The Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog...it's updated daily.

"Believe what you want. You work your side of the street, and I'll work mine." --Frank Bullitt