Reminiscent of an earlier review of "Spider-Man 3" that complained about the American flag's cameo in the superhero blockbuster, Times of London film critic James Christopher added "Sunday School morality" as a black mark against the action flick.This incessant Tom and Jerry action makes it impossible to actually care. The Sunday School morality, and the inevitable flash of the American flag, are perfectly irritating. It’s extraordinary how often the third movie of a tent-pole franchise fails to deliver, in this case by trying to deliver too much. It’s hardly the kiss of death for Raimi, but with a budget as huge as his the pressure is surely on to pull in more than $400 million.
That's much harsher than critic Leo Lewis, who said it was "disappointing" that director Sam Raimi was unable "to end the romp without a fleeting shot of the American flag."
Picture posted above via Starbase 21 Comics & Collectibles.
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
As far as I'm concerned, thes
May 4, 2007 - 12:31 ET by Rupert CadellAs far as I'm concerned, these critiques are about filmmaking, not politics.
"I'm liberal, but to a degree; I want everyone to be free." -B. Dylan
I wonder if he has the same c
May 4, 2007 - 12:33 ET by USA4freedomI wonder if he has the same complaint about James Bond movies? Look, just pretend it has a sickle and hammer and you will feel much better. IT’S A MOVIE, GET OVER IT. (Hey that is what you would tell us, if it were about the assassination of our president.)
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagn- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Well, not being and America
May 4, 2007 - 12:34 ET by MightyMouthWell, not being an American, you wouldn't be offended.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
There are times when the grea
May 4, 2007 - 12:37 ET by USA4freedomThere are times when the greatest generation has to scratch their heads and wonder why we went to war for some of these people…
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagn- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Last I checked, I was an Am
May 4, 2007 - 12:56 ET by Rupert CadellLast I checked, I was an American, but thanks for reminding me to update my passport.
I'd rather mainline Drane-O than see a Spiderman movie, so I don't have a great frame of reference, but surely you could agree that lingering shots of American flags aren't necessarily appropriate in every film. Maybe you can argue that it was in Spiderman, I don't know. My point is that I read it as a criticism of an artistic choice of the filmmaker, not an affront to the US.
"I'm liberal, but to a degree; I want everyone to be free." -B. Dylan
The libs across the pond are
May 4, 2007 - 13:00 ET by Buckeye_Paul01The 'sensitive' libs across the pond are, no doubt, offended that many of Spidey's superhero friends also call NYC home.
I'm sure the pink panty wearing leftists over in GB aren't complaining about James Bond. Can you imagine an American being so sensitive, insecure, and weak to be offended by the sight of Union Jack on the big screen?
lol
Sure, you read it how you wan
May 4, 2007 - 17:06 ET by mattmSure, you read it how you want to read it, others read it differently.
To me, the critic's perjorative tone is the give-away.
Exactly right. The critics'
May 4, 2007 - 21:22 ET by MPayneExactly right. The critics' tone is the give-away. Did they complain about Spiderman 1 & 2? Both had similar shots of Spidey in front of Old Glory. Also, I read an article about Sam Raimi; he has a large America Flag on the wall behind his desk. He has no qualms about his country. That is great to hear from the crazy enteratainment industry...
" Courage - a perfect sensibility of the measure of danger, and a mental willingness to endure it. " - William T. Sherman
MM, I am proud of being an Am
May 4, 2007 - 13:01 ET by ForeverOnTheRightMM, I am proud of being an American, it does not mean that I am proud of everything an American does. I have noticed that Hollywood always has Americans saving the world in these big disaster movies, like “Independence Day.” Is this arrogance or just being ethnocentric? Are these accidental comedies or what? It is becoming ridiculous.
Ya know, if an American makes
May 4, 2007 - 13:12 ET by Ruths husband BenYa know, if an American makes a movie there is nothing wrong with the American being the hero. If the French want to save the world, let them make their own freakin' movie and do it. The Japanese, Chinese and Indian films have their own folks saving the world. Even the British. I think James Bond saved the world in every one of the Bond flicks.
Spiderman and Superman are American icons for goodness sakes. The rest of the world is welcome to cheer them on or kiss my ass. Their choice.
Jeez, I get so tired of hearing folks say we don't have a lot to be proud of. Sure, America makes mistakes, but you got to be doing something to make mistakes. Sitting on the sidelines casting stones does not count as contributing in my mind.
Yaba daba doo! -Fred Flintstone campaign slogan
Good job. Exactly." 'F
May 4, 2007 - 15:26 ET by kathleenirishGood job. Exactly.
" 'Fred's Slacks' is a winner!!"
Let me count the ways:They're
May 4, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Ron_servativeLet me count the ways:
A question that has been asked but not answered, Do they say the same thing about the Bond movies? All that babble about the Queen this, the Queen that.
Quite distastful, what?
A question that has been aske
May 4, 2007 - 13:20 ET by Buckeye_Paul01A question that has been asked but not answered, Do they say the same thing about the Bond movies?
=====================================
Not to mention, Bond has Hollywood "USA" to thank for his fame on the big screen.
PS.... I really like the new "Casino Royale".
French Pride
May 4, 2007 - 13:19 ET by Cool ArrowYou gotta admit the French did a splendid job in saving their beautiful cathedrals and museums when Hitler threatened. All they had to give up was their little girls, boys, freedom, and flaccid weapons.
Funny, this "arrogance&q
May 4, 2007 - 20:57 ET by zfFunny, this "arrogance" has not affected the non-elites of the world, as Hollywood movies (especially the blockbluster and more general audience forms that elites sneer at) are gobbled up en masse in virtually every corner of the globe.
I agree, and made that argume
May 4, 2007 - 13:56 ET by balboaI agree, and made that argument before, but it falls on deaf ears here.
Balboa, *sigh*... A megamil
May 4, 2007 - 14:09 ET by MightyMouthBalboa, *sigh*... A megamillion dollar movie gets made with all the action and stuff you go to the movies to see and the limey "critics" choose precious column inches to call out a glimps of the American flag??? That's doesn't sound like sour american grapes to you?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Because it's erroneous
May 4, 2007 - 14:20 ET by Mr. BishopThe reason your "argument", as parroted by Rupert, falls on "deaf ears" is because it is a political argument, and there can be no denying this. Spider-Man is an American, both in the comic books, and in the movie. Even in the comic books, Spider-Man was portrayed as being quite the American patriot, and very supportive of the American way of life. Any complaint about morality (as the critic of the film, did complain about) as well as the appearance of the US flag, is political in nature -- since it is an American icon represented in the film, and an American made movie. I suppose the second that Captain America is portrayed in a high budget film now, when someone complains about his name being "Captain America", that won't be political in nature as well?
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Your Captain America argume
May 4, 2007 - 15:17 ET by balboaYour Captain America argument is a bad one. Yes, Spidey is quintessentially American, but he's not portrayed as super-patriotic in his comics. His patriotism is not an intrinsic part of who he is as it is with Captain America.
I still say his criticism is about the choice of using an American flag in a scene because it seemed to be overdoing it, kind of a hack move that was really unnecessary to the movie as a whole. If Spidey was fighting Nazis, Islamic terrorists, or even a foreign super-villain, then OK, I get it.
What about my post? You are
May 4, 2007 - 15:19 ET by MightyMouthWhat about my post? You aren't pissed at me are you? :-)
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Hold on, you. ;-)I think th
May 4, 2007 - 15:35 ET by balboaHold on, you. ;-)
I think the critic points out the flag scene because, as a film critic, he doesn't think it's a worthwhile choice by the director, not because he's anti-American but because he sees it as an unnecessary hack move, pandering perhaps.
Ok bal, rewind before this
May 4, 2007 - 15:39 ET by MightyMouthOk bal, rewind before this thread started. Suppose you had gone to the movie and had to critique it. Would YOU have even mentioned the flag? huh??
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Hard to say. I'm sure the g
May 4, 2007 - 15:46 ET by balboaHard to say. I'm sure the guy is being nit-picky, but that's what critics do.
I just don't tend to think "Oh he's anti-American! You anti-American! How dare you poo-poo a scene with an American flag in it! ARGH!"
Your probably right Amigo,
May 4, 2007 - 15:48 ET by MightyMouthYou're probably right Amigo, he's not anti-American... just anti-American flag! :-p
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
No
May 4, 2007 - 15:23 ET by Mr. BishopNo because Captain America comics were not limited to Captain America's fighting against Nazis. The Avengers, for instance -- modern day superheroes, led (for the most part) by Captain America. "Spidey" was also a part of the Avengers, if I recall correctly, and was portrayed as very supportive of America in his comic books. Even if he were not -- it doesn't change the fact that Spider-Man is, and always has been, an American comic book. I imagine, that if Spider-Man was portrayed as being anti-Iraq in the movie, that would be okay (by you, or the original critic)?
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Any anti-Iraq statement wou
May 4, 2007 - 15:33 ET by balboaAny anti-Iraq statement would be hackish as well. I know that Cap didn't only fight Nazis, but being patriotic is an essential part of who he is. Spidey's just your friendly neighborhood superhero. While he may display patriotic tendencies, it's not something he wears on his sleeve. The flag scene isn't needed.
Perhaps, perhaps not
May 4, 2007 - 15:45 ET by Mr. BishopFirst, allow me to point out that yes, Spider-Man is our friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. I want to point out, in that statement, that our "neighborhood" in terms of Spider-Man is considerably larger then simply New York. If not, his popularity would not have been so great. While he fought, primarily in New York City, he did also fight elsewhere in the country, as well as the world. His actions were never limited to New York. Now, does Spider-Man wear his patriotism on his sleeve? No, and I never said he did. I said he was [quite often] extremely patriotic. What I did say, was that complaining because of the appearance of the US flag, is political in nature. Now, whether or not the flag scene was necessary, is irrelevant to the fact it is there. Complaining about it existing, is only complaining about the fact the US flag was represented at all. There is no reason to complain about the representation of the US flag being present unless you don't like the US flag, for whatever the reasoning. At that point in time, any statement becomes political.
If you had seen the movie, and the US flag was flashed, would you be irritated? My guess, is no. So, why the irritation on the part of a British movie critic? It can only be surmised his irritation is due to his dislike of the US flag, which means he dislikes what it represents, which means he dislikes the United States.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Complaining about it existi
May 4, 2007 - 15:55 ET by balboaComplaining about it existing, is only complaining about the fact the US flag was represented at all. There is no reason to complain about the representation of the US flag
being present unless you don't like the US flag, for whatever the
reasoning.
Can't disagree more. Complaining about the flag being in a shot is about the composition of that scene. It is possible for someone to say "The flag shouldn't be in that shot" and still like the flag. It's not about liking or not liking the actual flag and what it stands for; it's about whether or not the flag is necessary in a scene.
Not what he said
May 4, 2007 - 16:00 ET by Mr. BishopExcept that is not what the critic said. He said the flash of the American flag was irritating. Irritating, not saying the flag should not be in the shot. There is a profound difference in what you are trying to say, and what the critic DID say. What the critic did say, was anti-American, by proxy of being irritated by the representation of the US flag in a "flash" moment.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Did he say "I'm irrita
May 4, 2007 - 16:15 ET by balboaDid he say "I'm irritated by that shot with the American flag because Americans suck"? Nope. He said "and the inevitable flash of the
American flag, are perfectly irritating." If anything, the use of "inevitable" reveals he thought it was a hack move because it was entirely too predictable, and thus quite lame, in his opinion.
He must have also mentioned
May 4, 2007 - 16:23 ET by MightyMouthHe must have also mentioned the numerous "inevitable" product shots that are in nearly every movie these days. Did he say the Coke logo was irritating too?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
No
May 4, 2007 - 16:31 ET by Mr. BishopHe said, "The Sunday School morality, and the inevitable flash of the American flag, are perfectly irritating." By adding the Sunday School morality portion, that negates the entire statement as being a hack move. The reasoning behind it has to do with the statement as a whole. He does not have to add anything more to the statement, to show a dislike of the US flag. There is no reason to complain about it -- none whatsoever, unless you have a problem with the US flag. He obviously had a problem with the "Sunday School morality", which also irritated him. How you can, on one hand suggest that it is okay to have a problem with the "Sunday School morality", and on the other hand, suggest the flash means that he found it a "hack move", is somewhat disappointing to me.
The other two movies did not contain any flashes of the US flag. As such, your statement of it being "too predictable" fails on that merit. The only way for it to be "too predictable" is if it has happened before. So, try a different argument, that one is erroneous -- unless you can somehow prove the entire movie represents an overbearing show of American patriotism -- then, and only then, can your argument about predictability hold any water. Until such a time, it is not "too predictable", and would need a lot more then your opinion, that it is.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
I think when he says the Sund
May 4, 2007 - 18:31 ET by balboaI think when he says the Sunday School morality and flag irritated him, that doesn't automatically mean he hates America. He didn't think they had any business in that shot, that it was a bad choice for the director. That's all. There's no deeper meaning.
A scene element doesn't have to be in every movie in a trilogy to be too predictable. And perhaps he didn't think it was predictable. Maybe he thought it was pandering, maybe he thought it was pointless, maybe he thought it ruined the mood of the movie, etc. None of those things have anything to do with a deep-seeded need to bash America.
Maybe
May 4, 2007 - 18:57 ET by AgnosticHow many times to you have to go through 'maybe' until you get to possibly or even probably? The maybes are really adding up.
About five hundred and eighty
May 4, 2007 - 19:07 ET by BlondeAbout five hundred and eighty seven until all of the liberal possibilities for just trying to have a point have been exhausted.
Tiresome, huh?
But, but, but.......
I prefer "maybe" in trying to
May 4, 2007 - 19:31 ET by balboaI prefer "maybe" in trying to explain the critic's thoughts instead of the absolutes everyone else is throwing around her.
However...
May 4, 2007 - 20:05 ET by Mr. BishopHowever... up until the previous post, you dealt in absolutes on this subject.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Hey, I could be wrong, there'
May 4, 2007 - 20:16 ET by balboaHey, I could be wrong, there's no doubt about that. He could hate America. I can see your side of the argument and why you might think that. I disagree.
Perhaps so
May 4, 2007 - 20:24 ET by Mr. BishopIndeed, and don't think I can't see what you are saying on this either balboa. I know what you are trying to say, I am merely saying that his words don't support it, when taken on the whole (I really can't say those last three words now, without thinking about Goldmember and Preparation H).
Until I see the movie (which won't be until Sunday perhaps, when I take my kids to see it), I will not know if the movie is overly patriotic (not thinking it is however), but I definitely know that the last two movies were not predictable in any iconization of America, so there is little reason to assume that this one will follow a pattern, since there is no pattern.
Now, whether this guy hates America, or not, remains to be seen -- however, his complaint of the US flag being shown, seems to exhibit some level of intolerence for the United States, for whatever the reasoning.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Ah, the word "maybe.&quo
May 4, 2007 - 21:20 ET by zfAh, the word "maybe." The mantra of moral, intellectual and social paralysis.
the word "maybe." a
May 4, 2007 - 21:28 ET bythe word "maybe."
and it's step-brother 'what-if' the mantra of special-pleading activism
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmous test for President.
I wish I had all the answers
May 4, 2007 - 21:44 ET by balboaI wish I had all the answers as you apparently do. Until then, "maybe" it is.
And you know this.... how?
May 4, 2007 - 19:13 ET by Mr. BishopAnd you would know it doesn't have any deep-seeded need to bash America... how? You know him? I can only tell you what his words mean. I can only tell you that your theories don't add up because of previous Spider-Man movies, and his own words. You translated (yes, translated) the words about flash of American flag being irritable, into him thinking they had no business in that shot.
You've got a long way to go to make a case here, and you can only prove it by one of several things:
Watch the movie, and prove that the flag did not belong (Since it comes out today, you could not have seen it already, thus you have no clue if it belonged or did not belong).
Watch the movie, and prove it was predictable on the patriotic front, so the flag would be unnecessary -- however, in so doing, you would most likely prove wrong your other attempt at saying that it was a movie hack (In either case, one or the other of those two, would be wrong, since they two cannot both be right).
Write to the critic, and request a clarification of his meaning (As it stands right now, you don't know what he meant, and you certainly don't know what he thought. His words indicate far different from what you are attempting to claim he was thinking).
EDIT: I would also like to point out... this is the SECOND British movie critic to piss and moan about the US flag flying in a US movie, with a US comic book character... Yeah -- they hate the US, and they wear it proudly it seems.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
Just because people might dis
May 4, 2007 - 17:09 ET by mattmJust because people might disagree with you doesn't mean what you say "falls on deaf ears."
I'm simply stunned. Complai
May 4, 2007 - 13:46 ET by InsufficientContextI'm simply stunned. Complaining that a movie based on an iconic American comic book has a plot line that, *gasp* resembles an iconic American comic book, is so far beyond cynical it's verging on nihilism. It's like watching a classic western and complaining about the dialogue.
The so-called 'Sunday School
May 4, 2007 - 14:15 ET by GalvanicThe so-called 'Sunday School morality' of which the critic writes, is, of course, one of the key ingredients of success of the Spider-Man flicks, as well as some other super-hero films. And for decades, Hollywood cranked out thousands of successful films with that very ingredient.
That's because commericially successful films are most often those which reinforce or even celebrate the cultural mythos. Spider-Man is a traditional character who is good, and his opponents are clearly evil --- a persistent cinema and comic book formula.
One need only look at its box office numbers to see that it works.
Sorry there James, maybe you
May 4, 2007 - 14:47 ET by USA4freedomSorry there James, maybe you can come up with your own super heroes. How about sphincter man? He can fly any flag you like.
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagn- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
I agree totally. And it's too
May 4, 2007 - 21:37 ET by zfI agree totally. And it's too bad the actual comic books themselves aren't like that anymore. DC has become a propoganda wing for terrorists and Marvel is now even worse. First they turned Captain America into a angst ridden dolt haunted by America's "past crimes" as he listens to the writers anti-American propoganda that they stick in other characters mouths and then they have the gall to have him shot and killed. Disgusting.
Hopefully the movie will be as hugely sucessful as the previous ones and snap the creative teams at the Big Two comics out of their misery and get them back to making comic books fun and uplifting again.
DC has become a propoganda w
May 4, 2007 - 21:43 ET by balboaDC has become a propoganda wing for terrorists
I know that's what I think of every time I read Neil Gaiman's "Doll's House." Morpheus is obviously anti-American...
Check out the September 2003
May 5, 2007 - 07:27 ET by zfCheck out the September 2003 issue of "Justice League of America" and call me in the morning. And that issue has not been the last of it either.
So, is Sam Raimi a conservati
May 4, 2007 - 19:02 ET by NewsbusterbrownSo, is Sam Raimi a conservative or just a patriotic liberal?
A patriotic liberal? C'mon, t
May 4, 2007 - 21:22 ET by zfA patriotic liberal? C'mon, that is as fantastic a concept as the Green Goblin! <g>
Heh.Seriously, Joe Lieberman
May 5, 2007 - 07:15 ET by NewsbusterbrownHeh.
Seriously, Joe Lieberman would be a good example of a patriotic liberal.
True, maybe that's why he's n
May 5, 2007 - 07:28 ET by zfTrue, maybe that's why he's no longer in the Democratic Party...
So I saw Spider-Man 3 today.
May 5, 2007 - 19:19 ET by balboaSo I saw Spider-Man 3 today. It was good I thought, though with some problems. Too much Peter Parker crying, too many plot lines, but I still really enjoyed it.
As for the flag scene, I have to say I thought it was really cool actually. Didn't feel forced, didn't seem silly. I think the reviewer wanted this to be more "edgy," more fringe, what with Peter Parker going to the "dark side" and all. Or perhaps with the war on terror going on he thought it was a cheap stunt to elicit "hurrahs" from the crowd, but it didn't come off that way.
Invent your own superheroes...
May 11, 2007 - 07:23 ET by cunservatyveIf you Brits don't like the fact that Peter Parker IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN an American superhero then invent your own. Don't expect that we'll internationalize our heroes to suit your anti-American tastes. Don't consume our culture if you don't like our culture!
Yes, and please do have James Bond stop with the Union Jack and God Save the Queen in the future please.
Cunservatyve military medical guy
If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on Paul's vote!