In a typical move, Europeans want to ban something they don’t like. In an English-language article, the Danish Heise Online reported several members of the European Parliament, which is the elected body of the European Union, will submit a draft of a declaration next week that “calls on providers in somewhat vague language to make provisions against "hate pages" part of their standard terms and conditions” with the ultimate goal to “banish racism and hate propaganda from the Internet altogether. This is the same environment in which publishing the satirical Jyllands-Posten Mohammad cartoons (images here)was considered an act of Islamophobia, and therefore hate speech. The draft specifically mentions Islamophobia in the preamble, which would likely mean that anti-terrorism sites like Little Green Footballs, the Brussels Journal and Melanie Phillips, publisher of the book, Londonistan could be labeled "hate speech" (emphasis mine throughout):
The ultimate object of the push by five EU Members of Parliament, Glyn Ford and Claude Moraes of the UK's Labour Party, the Hungarian Liberal Party member Viktoria Mohacsi and the two German European Members of Parliament Bern Posselt (Christian Social Union; CSU) and Feleknas Uca (The Left Party), is to banish racism and hate propaganda from the Internet altogether. The preamble to the declaration mentions anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and anti-Romany campaigns. Should the providers refuse to act more forcefully the five initiators of the declaration have vowed to pressure the European Commission into drafting appropriate legislation (the article includes links to the politicians' websites).
The Parlimentarians are essentially extorting Internet Service Providers to monitor and ban online “hate speech” and “hate" sites, and if the ISPs don’t, the five will begin making the policy law.
It sounds like the EU agrees with the leftist idea that “hate speech is not free speech.” The danger here, other than a slippery slope and limited speech, is that the EU will decide what hate speech is. Many in Europe believe that criticizing or making fun of Islam or denying its legitimacy is hate speech, and therefore verboten. Public schools in Scotland even said staring at Muslims is Islamophobia. Is it much of a stretch to think that sites dealing with Islamic terrorism, atheism or honor killings could be among those shut down with the neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers. What about sites such as those promoting Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the late Theo Van Gogh's movie “Submission” or Hirsi Ali’s books?
Of course, the US received some blame:
The Commission should, within the framework of the Safer Internet Plus program, do more to have such nefarious content removed, the parliamentarians declare. In addition it would be wise to learn from efforts undertaken in this regard by other countries, such as the United States, the MPs write. It is there, however, that many of the anti-Semitic pages that so upset the Europeans are hosted and where by invoking the First Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits Congress from making any law "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press," such pages are able to last.
A very telling phrase is at the end of the article. It discussed the “delicate question” which the draft does not address of “where to draw the line between pages a company should on no account host and those it might find offensive but not be expected to do anything about.” Would the Jyllands-Posten cartoons fall into that category? It seems the idea of abhorring speech, yet recognizing its right to exist never made it across the ocean.
In many countries it is illegal to deny the Holocaust or in Germany, support neo-Nazi groups. Europe tried to restrict online “hate speech” at least one other time, in 2002, which the US flatly rejected, and in 2006, the EU unsuccessfully tried to regulate online video content.
(h/t Ars Technica)
Lynn can be reached at: tvisgoodforyou2ATyahoo.com (Email was altered to prevent spam. Change “AT” to the usual “@” to email me)
Comments Policy
The EU is toast.
April 25, 2007 - 10:41 ET by Dave RMany in Europe believe that criticizing or making fun of Islam or denying its legitimacy is hate speech, and therefore verboten.
It appears the Euro-pee-on Union has decided to cave-in to their future Islamic masters without so much as a wimper.
Good riddance, I say.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Euro-pee-on Union Is this
April 25, 2007 - 14:24 ET by BAUHAUSEuro-pee-on Union
Is this funny to you?
More sardonic than funny
April 25, 2007 - 14:32 ET by RJConsidering the rest of the post, I'd guess it's intended to be more sardonic than funny.
I still don't like it.
April 25, 2007 - 14:35 ET by BAUHAUSI still don't like it.
Boo Hoo Bauhaus
April 25, 2007 - 14:41 ET by RJWell, Boo Hoo, Bauhaus. Dave's point is accurate.
Mighty sensitive there aren't
April 25, 2007 - 14:41 ET by bigtimerMighty sensitive there aren't you Bauhaus?
I thought it was a great play on words...lighten up once in awhile.
Geesh.
It's simply offensive to me.
April 25, 2007 - 14:49 ET by BAUHAUSIt's simply offensive to me. Just my opinion.
Don't worry, Bauhaus. The E
April 25, 2007 - 14:54 ET by RJDon't worry, Bauhaus. The EU would be certain to ban it....
It made me laugh, just like y
April 25, 2007 - 14:57 ET by florida_chadIt made me laugh, just like your profile.
... just like your profile.
April 25, 2007 - 15:05 ET by BAUHAUS... just like your profile.
Just the plain truth.
your truth - which is differe
April 25, 2007 - 15:10 ET by florida_chadyour truth - which is different from the actual truth.
Whatever you say.
April 25, 2007 - 15:13 ET by BAUHAUSWhatever you say.
April 25, 2007 - 17:34 ET by Dave R
oops
BAUHAUS,Is this funny to you?
April 25, 2007 - 17:47 ET by Dave RBAUHAUS,
Is this funny to you?
Well, it would depend on ones point of view.
As a student of history, and one who is not exactly unfamiliar with the extremely bloody history of Europe, I have always found it quite amusing that the inhabitants of said continent have been able to conjure up the audacity to criticize the United States of America for anything, particularly our use of military action.For the last sixty-plus years, this country has possessed the most formidable military power the world has ever seen, yet we have employed it most sparingly and with a great deal of restraint-far more than we should have IMHO.
We could literally take over this entire planet if we so desired, and nobody could really do anything about it. Yet we have not done so.As I look back through history, I have a very difficult time believing that most of the major players in this world, had they possessed the power that we have, would have employed that same power as judiciously as have we.
Furthermore, nearly every country of Europe, including the residents of the U.K., owe their very existence to this country. The United States of America has rescued that unfortunate continent from living under tyranny twice in the last century, yet these same ingrates, or their immediate descendants, have the unmittigated gaul to wag their finger at this country, while lecturing us on how we choose to defend it.
Unless you have been residing in a cave since the late seventies, you have robably noticed that the barbaric Islamic horde is in the process of reconquering most of the areas they occupied prior to theCrusades. Apparently, they have decided to resume the war Mohammed declared against the civilized world all those centuries ago. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, they have actually accelerated their progress, and, for a wole lot of reasons, of which the current disparity in birthrates is only one, are very close to occupying the same lands they did prior to the Crusades.
They aren't going to stop there, however. They have, as their stated goal, promised to spread Sharia law over the entire known world. As things currently stand, aside from a mere handful of countries in various parts of the world, including Australia, the United States my very well become the only power able to stem the Islamic tide. Sadly, if history is any example, the civilized world appears to beunwilling to do what it takes to stop it before it gets out-of-hand. At the moment, I am unfortunately including this country in that group.
Spain has essentially already surrendered to them. France is well on its way to doing so, and the U.K will probably be next, as they appear to be about to throw in the towel in Iraq, as well as at home. Many areas of Asia and Africa aren't far behind, either, as they are seeing a huge resurgence on the part of the Islamic horde. Western society has, for the most part, shown the Islamic barbarians nothing but weakness. Even in this country we have an entire political party that represents roughly half of the U.S. voting public that appears to willing to throw in the towel as well. This is playing right into the hands of the Islamic horde.
And yet, given all this, the E.U. has decided to outlaw critism of these same Islamists that will, in the not too distant future, be the ones who will be pressing the barrels of their AK's against the backs of these same Europeans and forcing them to pray toward Mecca five times a day. Those who refuse will, most likely, be killed.
They will have no one to blame other than themselves.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.- Neal Boortz.
Nicely said, Dave.I particula
April 25, 2007 - 19:02 ET by BlondeNicely said, Dave.
I particularly liked your spelling of "gaul"...so appropriate when speaking of the euros, and the frogs. :)
Blonde,That's what happ
April 26, 2007 - 06:50 ET by Dave RBlonde,
That's what happens when I think about the French. :-)
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Can you say something else th
April 26, 2007 - 11:17 ET by BAUHAUSCan you say something else than "Nicely said". I always read the same from you. Or is confirming all you can do.
Oh yeah, BAUHAUS,I can say al
April 26, 2007 - 19:18 ET by BlondeOh yeah, BAUHAUS,
I can say alot more than that.
That's just a typical little trollish provocation on your part....doesn't bother me in the least. First grade "nah nah nah" post all the way. Sheesh.
Shall I say you germans are arrogant beyond belief, for a people who've had your heads handed to you twice in the last century, by the United States.... That germans are so ultra paranoid that you now have to have official "hate speech" legislation....That you are so supremly arrogant that you feel you can freely criticize that which you don't understand?
Just so you don't misunderstand me, I could hardly care what you have to say about me....and if I choose to compliment my fellow posters here, what exactly is that to you? Other than to take some "false offense" and to try to get into some argument, which you surely shall lose.
Try again.
At least no American is arrog
April 27, 2007 - 04:37 ET by BAUHAUSAt least no American is arrogant beyond belief and especially not you.
Spain has essentially already
April 26, 2007 - 11:13 ET by BAUHAUSSpain has essentially already surrendered to them
Example please.
And yet, given all this, the E.U. has decided to outlaw critism of these same Islamists that will, in the not too distant future, be the ones who will be pressing the barrels of their AK's against the backs of these same Europeans and forcing them to pray toward Mecca five times a day. Those who refuse will, most likely, be killed.
What you write all makes sense. We are surrendering to Islam. That's why Muslim women aren't allowed to wear a veil while teaching in schools. And that's also the reason why Metin Kaplan [1] is banned from Germany. You're so right.
And obviously you're so smart not to understand that with this law radical forms of Islam are offically banned in the whole EU. It is by the way banned form years in Germany.
That's all part of the European Plan To Surrender.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan
Spain has essentially alrea
April 26, 2007 - 12:43 ET by Dave RSpain has essentially already surrendered to them
Example please.
Easy. Spain had a government in place that was somewhat resistent to the Muslim horde and supportive of us in our efforts against the spread of "radical" Islam.
BOOM!
Trains are blown up just before Spain's national election by members of the "peaceful" religion of Islam. Spanish population panics and promptly votes in the peace at any price socialist government types who have done nothing but appease the barbarians ever since.
Huge victory for Radical Islam. Sad day for what remains of the civilized world.
That's all part of the European Plan To Surrender.
The decision whether or not to surrender to the Muslims may already be out of their hands.
Look at the birthrates in Europe as they pertain to native Europeans vs. Muslim immigrants. Europeans are not having children at anywhere near the rate that the Muslims are. If this trend continues, the Muslim populations all over Europe will grow to the point where they will become a considerable force in the governments of said countries.
Not a good thing for Western Society.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Easy. Spain had a government
April 26, 2007 - 13:11 ET by BAUHAUSEasy. Spain had a government in place that was somewhat resistent to the Muslim horde and supportive of us in our efforts against the sread of "radical" Islam.
You're so stupid. There's no prove at all in your comment.
Look at the birthrates in Europe as they pertain to native Europeans vs. Muslim immigrants. Europeans are not having children at anywhere near the rate that the Muslims are. If this trend continues, the Muslim populations all over Europe will grow to the point where they will become a considerable force in the governments of said countries.
You sound exactly like the American racists i saw on TV. The same theories just about Blacks.
Not a good thing for Western Society.
Glad we're still part of our Western Society.
BaU, not only are you deaf, b
April 26, 2007 - 13:16 ET by bassndudeBaU, not only are you deaf, but your blind and stupid also. Those are not theories, they are facts that are in the printed record. Go on, read about it. Google it if your to stupid to look for yourself.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
You're so stupid. There's n
April 26, 2007 - 13:24 ET by Dave RYou're so stupid. There's no prove at all in your comment.
BAU, on exactly which planet have you been residing for the last three years?
Does the term Madrid train bombings mean anything to you?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
And when you country is exper
April 26, 2007 - 13:28 ET by BAUHAUSAnd when you country is experiencing a terrorist attack it is surrendering to Islam? Your logic makes no sense at all.
And by your logic the US has also surrenderd to Islam because of 9/11.
Bau,Read this.
April 26, 2007 - 13:29 ET by Dave RBau,
Read this.
Then this.
And, after 9/11, we didn't turn around and vote the peace at any price democrats into office, which is our equivalent to the Euro-socialists.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
The first thing I read: Th
April 26, 2007 - 13:39 ET by BAUHAUSThe first thing I read:
The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.
Post the exact pharse your refering to.
Damn Bau, how deep was your head in that pile o' sand
April 26, 2007 - 13:50 ET by Dave RBau,
The attacks in Madrid came three days prior to the elections in Spain. The socialists were behind in the polls at that time, yet, three days after the bombings, the Spanish voted the socialists into power.
This is a fact of history. It occurred back in '04. The whole world saw it happen.
Where were you?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
You understand that the spani
April 26, 2007 - 13:54 ET by BAUHAUSYou understand that the spanish mood changed because in their view the current administration couldn't protect them. So they replace it. Or is that too complex for you.
Bau, you have the intellectual depth of a fly swatter
April 26, 2007 - 14:10 ET by Dave RSo they decided to vote in a government which they knew was going to appease the Islamo-fascists, in the hopes that, if they were just nicer to the people who have, as their stated goal, world-wide domination over the infidel (that means anyone who is not a Muslim, or any Muslims they do not agree with) that somehow the Islamo-fascists would just go away and every thing would be just peachy.
All they really managed to do was further embolden the enemies of the civilized world. Now the Spaniards are sitting ducks and are subject to the whims of the Islamic illiterate barbarians.
They have, as did the citizens of the Roman Empire, lost the will to defend themselves.
They are toast, and they know it.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Read what I wrote again. They
April 27, 2007 - 04:35 ET by BAUHAUSRead what I wrote again. They thought another government offers better protection because apperently the other couldn't.
Seems reality is a foreign concept to you.
"Better protection?"
April 27, 2007 - 10:54 ET by RJ"Better protection?" No, just as Europe has historically done, the Spanish hoped to appease the extremists. Appeasement has never worked in the past (making it necessary for America to repeatedly bail Europe out) and it didn't work for Spain today.
Europe allows itself to be raped
April 27, 2007 - 11:01 ET by The Wicked ConservativeTake a look. I know it's been around for a while but this truth is apparently just another axiom of liberalism. Appeasement will lead to our demise, but at least no one will be offended.
The rape of Europe
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to aliberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
Logic, critical thought.
April 28, 2007 - 09:46 ET by NL207Logic, critical thought. These concepts seem to foreign to you, Herr Haus.
I will explain the Spanish debacle for you since you are unable to comprehend the situation for yourself. Radical Islam in the personages of Al Qaeda did not like Spanish policy. In an attempt to influence that policy, the Islamofascists carried out a mass train bombing. A craven Spanish electorate caved in to that act of war, effectively surrendered, and voted in a new government with a policy favorable to the Islamofascists, thereby surrendering their sovreignty to the Islamofascists.
You, of course, do not believe this. I will pose this question which will clarify the situation for you: What do you suppose the Islamofascists are going to do the next time Spain has something they want and the Spanish refuse to deliver it on demand?
The situation the Spanirds faced was no different than that the Allies faced at Munich in 1938. There, the weak minded fool, Neville Chamberlain, capitulated to a bully and bought "peace in our time". His time proved to be all to short.
How long do you have?
Today I converted to Islam an
April 28, 2007 - 16:13 ET by BAUHAUSToday I converted to Islam and Communism to appease my new masters.
I gave up all my liberties which I, according to you never had, and live now under Shariah law.
That was a joke. Hope you're able to understand it.
You're anyway superior to me, so why should I now bother what you write. You won't believe me anyway.
Read your link---
April 26, 2007 - 14:09 ET by misterbillRead your link---happy to see that Western Europe stood up to a radical.
The explosion at the train station did seem to affect Spain quite a bit. At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I will offer some opinions re: the European and American attitudes. I think that people forget history. At great cost of human life, the US has stepped in to help Europe on many occasions, Some has been help proffered by individual Americans, e.g. The Lincoln Brigade in Spain. Misguided or not, the American spirit waved its beliefs. WW1, WW2. The pilots in the Canadian Air Force before America was in WW2. Claire Chennault in China. Where was Europe? How many of us died to free conquered Europeans? What do we see in return? It may be largely due to the reporting by our biased press, but we see resentment where many feel we should see the hand of friendship for past endeavors, extended to us. We are called ugly, crude, rude and ignorant. Maybe we are, by the civilized judgment of Western Europe, but , that's a two way street, and by God, we are there when you need us. Why can't you be there when we need you? Now don't jump all over me--that is what I, and perhaps I alone, think is behind the rift.
Next is the lifestyles of the world. (And the moral code.) We are seen as decadent, yet, save Nevada, prostitution is illegal in the USA. I argue neither for or against that in this article, but there is an old West attitude in America. We have a hard time thinking of friends or families, etc. engaged in such fields. So to some of us, Europe is , again, quite decadent. Europe seems to be quite willing to sacrifice some liberties to maintain this lifestyle. You, at one point referenced some favorable newspaper articles in the European press about us. Do you honestly think that any American media would ever show that to us??? You, in Europe are as much a victim of the US MSM as we are.
It is easy for me to deliver this treatise, since I am far to old to serve in the military anymore. But, by Heaven, I did and I did it to help another country that was under attack by its Northern neighbor: were I able, and you neede help, I would want my country to answer the call again to help you. We put Germany back on its feet after the horrifics that country put upon other European countries. We work on the premise that there are any number of good, decent folks in any country that deserve the chance to live in peace and dignity.We are "cowboys". We fight for right. And if we make mistakes, we ask you as friends , to forgive us and to keep helping us make the world a better place. We inflict no religious beliefs on any of you. We merely ask you to stand up and be counted in the fight against evil in the world. Be it evil concealed in a religious front or in a racial or ethnical base.Do not judge us by our Harry Reid's. God will handle him.
So, in closing, in this one old man's opinion, you do not offer us the true hand of friendship that we feel that our blood and the blood of our fathers spent on your soil warrants. All of Europe should have a Continental holiday. That day should be May 7, in honor of the anniversary of the unconditional surrender of all German forces. (Perhaps you could say, God bless you, Audie Murphy.)
Read your link---happy to see
April 27, 2007 - 04:14 ET by BAUHAUSRead your link---happy to see that Western Europe stood up to a radical. We've been doing this since the founding of The Federal Republic of Germany. That's the only job of the Verfassungsschutz (Constitution Protection)
European and American attitudes.
I understand your view. And I like most Europeans are thankful for our involvement during WW2. I'm thankful for destroying that ill ideology but you won't hear a thanks for killing my ancestors. I think you can understand that.
You wrote: What do we see in return?
What do you expect? You know that Europe is in Afgahinstan only because of the US. I can imagine you in American don't hear anything what Europeans are doing around the world. I can't speak for all Europeans, but I can speak for Germany. But it is the German Army that has war correspondents in Mogadishu and Sudan. Or Germans like Reinhard Erös who continues to build schools in Afgahnistan although his 4 year old son died there. Then it is securing the Libanese Coast, rebuilding Kosovo and patrolling along the African Coast (Horn of Africa) as part of Enduring Freedom. Does this all not count?
EU-USA-MSM
I've never seen TV in the US but looking a CNN's German correspondent Frederick Pleitgen I'm not surprised. His reporting is definitly Anti-German.
But what are you expecting. The US is a Media Superpower which can't handle it right. Are you aware the Anti-Americanism is mainly fueled by TV shows like MTV's Sweet Sixteen (that smug's birthday show) or American Talkshows like Jerry Springer. We are seeing them. And they are disgusting. I know it's not your vault but why am I here at NB constantly under fire for being European. No one ask what's my opinion on the War against Iraq. No one knows that it's me arguing alone against 25 students that the War against Iraq is legal and a good thing. What ever I say I'm pushed into the 'All Europeans are Socialist and hate America'-corner. I'm sick and tired of it.
BAU at the risk of sounding like a toady---
April 27, 2007 - 11:33 ET by misterbillBAU at the risk of sounding like a toady---I was not attacking you. Perhaps my writing leaves something to be desired. I was trying to explain to you what I feel most Americans are like and why they have the attitudes they do.
Were you to disagree, I would definitely challenge you on my opinion that most Americans are good people at heart, thus the comment about being cowboys.
We are absolutely in accord on the American MSM. It is sad. Jerry Springer should have been spent to spend his formative years in a monastic cell. He is disgusting. A great deal of American TV is disgusting. I am older with far more conservative values in entertainment than a lot of Americans--my wife and I seldom go to movies anymore because of lewdness and profanity. The drug culture is something I simply do not understand. It has played havoc with my family.
"Does this all not count?" Absolutely, to me, it counts a lot.
I have seen on this site, that it is ANTICIPATED that you are opposed to America and the war and so forth. I have not seen that in your posts. I have seen explanations of cultural differences. I hold you no more under fire for being European than I am for being American. You provide information which we may not otherwise hear. I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to share that data with us.
"I can imagine you in American don't hear anything what Europeans are doing around the world.
" Bingo, we don't, we only hear what our hate-filled one-sided journalists(?) want us to hear or read. I am afraid that is true worldwide.
You and NB members share a common problem. I will call it, simply, misreporting.
In another vein, I would very much like to read your opinions about the "Islamification of Europe."
Where ’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land?
Sir Walter Scott
Misterbill, I know you were n
April 28, 2007 - 15:32 ET by BAUHAUSMisterbill, I know you were not attacking me, but those outrageous other comments let me boil over with anger.
A great deal of American TV is disgusting. I am older with far more conservative values in entertainment than a lot of Americans--my wife and I seldom go to movies anymore because of lewdness and profanity. The drug culture is something I simply do not understand. It has played havoc with my family.
What you might not know is that such values are exported to the world at the expense of the image of your country. And with 'exported' I mean really flooded.
"Does this all not count?" Absolutely, to me, it counts a lot.
That's good.
I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to share that data with us. Sure, although I had never expected so much Anti-Euro sentiment. But your comments always rebuild my faith in the American People when it's destroyed by hatefilled comments.
" Bingo, we don't, we only hear what our hate-filled one-sided journalists(?) want us to hear or read. I am afraid that is true worldwide. I wonder why, do these people want war. Is journalism to difficult for them or are they simply unable to write the truth.
Like one German philosopher said once: "Is this still the truth or already journalism?"
In another vein, I would very much like to read your opinions about the "Islamification of Europe."
Before I answer, what exactly are you meaning. The integration of muslims into the European Society. How we deal with Islam. Or how some at NB say it 'The Surrender Of Europe To Islam'.
I'm asking because all that would be very much to write.
To say at least it's far less grave than what you might have heard.
And Walther, you really gave me back hope in the American people.
PS: Did you know that Henry Kissinger (my favorite American Secretary of State if I had to choose) is honorary citizen of the state Baden-Württemberg. (That's were I live)
BAUHAUS --the "Islam" question
April 29, 2007 - 11:37 ET by misterbillBAUHAUS --the "Islam" question--when I read the news on the internet--I see statistics on % of muslims in various EU countries, birthrates of the immigrants versus the native population and dire predictions that by 2050 the Muslim population in each country of Europe will be greater than natives, therefore Europe will bea Muslim continent. One comment before the question--I think you know that Americans are quite suspicious of the Muslim people. They do not protest the evil deeds of the radicals--this is not good. It leads us to suspect that the majority of Muslims want to convert the rest of the world--forcibly, if necessary. Not good.
Now to the question(s)-- you read my first comment above (2050)--
1. is this true, possibly true??
2. You obviously do not agree with "surrender of Europe to Islam". Please share how far wrong I am to believe that.
misterbill,Here's some good n
April 29, 2007 - 11:42 ET by Blondemisterbill,
Here's some good news from Turkey regarding the islamists.
blonde==thanks
April 29, 2007 - 12:08 ET by misterbillblonde==thanks-- encouraging ---we should watch it closely. Let us hope that they do not go as far as some in America are trying to go with secularism. They should still be able to mention Allah's name in their schools and in their political sessions.
But again, good news!!!!
One comment before the questi
May 1, 2007 - 05:37 ET by BAUHAUSOne comment before the question--I think you know that Americans are quite suspicious of the Muslim people. They do not protest the evil deeds of the radicals--this is not good. It leads us to suspect that the majority of Muslims want to convert the rest of the world--forcibly, if necessary. Not good.
I know, and no offensense but I'm not surprised. I once saw a representative of a US muslim lobby group and he was such an arrogant asshole. Proud of his citizenship but not very friendly towards the American people. I'm not 100% sure if they try to convert everyone, but there are a few people who converted to Islam (in Germany the number was 14000) and as usual when I see converts regardless of their origin I wonder why they converted. I simply don't get it.
But to get back to your post. In this thread I got under fire because Germany is not supporting every religion like it's Christianity while in the US every religion is treated equally. Maybe that's the reason there are no protests. Maybe the radical muslims who want to convert everyone see the US as a open ground waiting to get developed.
I know how the police and the intelligence handle radicals in Germany, how are they handled in you country?
Would you say there's also a creeping islamification in the US.
The Islam question
I also have heard of those studies. And they're true. If you have your study based on that immigrants have in general more children than natives and will continue to do so, the study is right.
e.g. if an immigrant family has 5 children and every children has also 5 children and so on, there will be on the long term perspective be more immigrants than natives. That's a fact.
But what makes the authors so sure that exactly this will happen?
I see this a little different. Here's my explanation.
First you need to find out why the first generation immigrants' family has so many children. That's because the vast majority immigrants that comes to Europe has farming background. And in farming regardless where on the Earth the farmers have many children, because they are cheap labour. This was true in Europe before the industrialisation, it's true in China, true in Africa and true in the Middle East. Until this point those studies are correct.
But immigrants in Europe don't become farmers, so for the economical reason there is no need for children.
e.g. Compare Afro-Americans with Africans. I don't need to do much research to know that not every Afro-American family has so many children as the 'Cosby Show'-family [1] while in Africa families tend to have many children for the economical reason I mentioned above.
Then there is also a very important factor. The correlation of poverty and children outside farming.
As you should know, raising kids is expensive. The more you have the more they cost. You need to know that most immigrants have bad or no education and therefore are usually working as blue-collar workers.
Those are the first generation immigrants. They raise their children in poverty. I'll call those the second generation. Their children because of a failing parental house, a negativ immigrants' culture (they don't integrate themselves good enough) and despite access to good education they end up at best as blue-collar workers. Many second generation immigrants already had trouble with the police. And also a high stake leaves school without any graduation.
That's true for whole Europe. Just look why those immigrants rioted in France.
Negative for them will also be that the European economy will continue to reduce its demand for cheap workers. Either they leave Europe or become unemployed persons. To round it up in one sentense altough it sounds very tough. They have to live with the fact that they will be poor. It's a vicious circle.
Not a rosy future for them, and therefore I don't think the will have that many children.
And then there's my personal view of the second immigrants attitude.
I can hardly imagine that those people, only interested in getting drunk every weekend and driving a pimped BMW will also be interested in raising something like 5 children. But thats only my view.
As you can see, I based my 'study' mainly on the human factor.
I don't know if it is true, but I heard that in the Middle East there are more men than women. That could also reduce birthrates.
Maybe I also should explain why native Europeans' birthrate appear so low. Again thats very complex. But one explanation would be that an increasing number of native Europeans go to university. And therefore are longer occupied with education.
e.g Myself, I plan having kids when I'm 30-35 years old. My grandparents had kids when they we're something around 20. It appears that you have a shortage, but it doesn't mean that in the future there will be less children of native Europeans, it means that they will have them latter.
For the Surrender of Europe to Islam you have to wait for tomorrow, I need to get to university.
BAUHAUS.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cosby_Show
BAUHAUS
May 1, 2007 - 23:57 ET by misterbill"Would you say there's also a creeping islamification in the US."
Yes--but through immigration far more than conversion. We, Americans are too engrossed in our daily activities to pay attantion to what our government is allowing to happen. We were especially founded on a Judeo-Christian basis. A;; of my readings and study define us that way. We would most probably never give a second thought to any problems with another religion (e.g. Islam), if it did not try to enforce its religious rule into our secular life. We respect Ramadan, Seder, Christmas, and many other religious customs and holidays.
Unfortunately, it is being interpreted that Christianity is a threat to America if we celebrate Christian holidays or allow prayer in our schools. I, for one believe that every school should set up a classroom or area where children of each religion can repair to pay tribute to God in their own way. I have been honored in my life to have been friends with people of different religions, ethnicity and race. I think Americans spend a little too much time worrying about those issues.
"Maybe the radical muslims who want to convert everyone see the US as a open ground waiting to get developed."
I can only guess at this, but there are so damned many people who believe their religion is the one and only that it makes me cringe. I am content with who and what I am. I am also comfortable with any other religion that oes not spend its time proselytizing. That does not make me dislike their religion, it may irritate me at times.
"I know how the police and the intelligence handle radicals in Germany, how are they handled in you country?"
I plead ignorance. I only believe that our professionals are good at it. Much better today than before 9/11/2001.
I will post a second reply--this is getting quite long.
BAUHAUS Part 2
May 2, 2007 - 00:16 ET by misterbill"The Islam question" --"But what makes the authors so sure that exactly this will happen?"
You have explained that above---when people emigrate to other (us. more Western), countries, they bring with them what you have mentioned re: farming. They also bring with them a culture in which contraception is not practiced ,for many reasons, but IMHO the main 2 reasons are--ignorance and religion. So short of death and taxes, one could argue that nothing else is certain.
"They have to live with the fact that they will be poor. It's a vicious circle."
Only partially true. It is a catch 22 more than a vicious circle. If the children are willing to "suck it up", they can take advantage of opportunities, (at least in America), that will place their generation in better circumstances than their parents. I strongly believe that this is by making every effort to be assimilated in their new country. (My grandparents did and so did my parents.) My grandparents had accents but spoke excellent English. If I were to migrate to Germany (Joke here) at your kind invitation, I would make very effort to become conversant in your language.
"Maybe I also should explain why native Europeans' birthrate appear so low. Again thats very complex. But one explanation would be that an increasing number of native Europeans go to university. And therefore are longer occupied with education."
If that is so, then the problem will rectify itself over time. However what is far more likely to happen is exactly what has happened throughout history in conquered countries. Intermarriage. Now, the problem is not ethnic, it is religious only. But, that is far more dangerous than ethnic issues. That is why, I believe that Europe will be mostly Islam within 25 years.
I have my doubts this will ha
May 3, 2007 - 15:24 ET by BAUHAUSI have my doubts this will happen. You really need to look at the second generation. Trust me, this aren't the muslims you're thinking of. Rather like Ghetto kids. (I don't no how to express this more politely)
They are not immigrants in the way of Europeans who came to America. That's why I don't think they will ever break the catch-22 situation. (The German word is Teufelskreis (devil's circle), thats why I wrote vicious circle)
Taking advantage of opportunities is more difficult theses days anyway. e.g. in the past starting your own motor company was easy (okay not easy as starting a restaurant but achievable). But compared to today, it's nearly impossible. And that's true for several other businesses too.
We will see, I'll tell you in heaven how it turned out. And if it really gets that worse, there's always the US to immigrate. *g
Currently there is Conference between various muslim's lobbies and the government to find out if they respect our constitution or prefer sharia law. If it turns out they prefer sharia law, residence permits will get tighter and our constitution protection service will take care of them. Accepting our constitution is not negotiable. Here's a translation if you want to take a look. http://www.bundestag...
Here's also a link to a German ex-muslim lobby. http://www.ex-muslim...
Do you have such study handy. I would like to read it.
PS: If the Democrates become president you can always immigrate to Germany where the south is governed by conservatives for 60 years. *g
Example please (of EU followi
April 26, 2007 - 14:54 ET by Lynn DavidsonExample please (of EU following sharia law, etc.)
The media have reported many stories such as the ones you are asking about. Here are a few that were in the news over the past year or two:
“A German judge rejected an application for a speedy divorce by referring to a passage in the Koran that some have controversially interpreted to mean that a husband can beat his wife.” The judge stated, "It must be taken into account that both man and wife have Moroccan backgrounds. I don’t think that could be any clearer.
German schools allow a fundamentalist Muslim group which the German government suspects is an “extremist organization” to teach religion classes in Berlin schools. A principal who snuck in after being banned from observing the classes in her own school, said that students are taught “women are for the house, for the children.” She said that since they began teaching, Muslim girls have dropped out of sports and field trips. Is Germany no longer concerned with gender equality and bigotry?
Germany is pushing for an EU proposal would allow the laws of non-EU countries to apply in divorce cases, meaning that sharia law would be the law of the land in the EU divorce courts.
London police began consulting "with a panel of Muslim leaders before mounting counter-terrorist operations." The panel will advise whether there is sufficient evidence and the potential consequences of the arrest. The UK did not consult with Catholic leaders when apprehending Catholic IRA terrorists.
Britain is conforming to sharia law. The UK issued sharia-compliant bonds. The governments of Pakistan and Malaysia have issued sharia-compliant bonds before, but never a western nation.
UK schools serving halal school lunches without telling parents. It violated Hindu students religious rules and offended the RSPCA and students who support animal rights. Other schools have banned pork altogether, which they did not do for Jewish students.
You get the SHACK prize today
April 26, 2007 - 15:23 ET by Airforce_5_OYou get the SHACK prize today Lynn. That was great!
Reduce the U.S. Carbon Footprint. Send Rosie to Iran. Airforce_5_O 04/04/2007
Thanks, but what's the "
April 26, 2007 - 19:10 ET by Lynn DavidsonThanks, but what's the "SHACK prize"?
A German judge She wasn't a
April 27, 2007 - 04:31 ET by BAUHAUSA German judge
She wasn't a real judge. She was a Schöffin (something like a juror with background in law). Her comment stirred up a debate whether we're "surrendering" to Islam. After she said that she was sacked and some commenters think all she wanted was to provoke.
By the way, Muslim's who stopped believing in Islam and are facing death threats are under special protection by the German state.
German schools I have never ever heard of that. I believe that is a lie. Just look at the source, jihadwatch.org seems to me very biased.
Have you heard of the students who were banned from school for wearing the burka. After lobbying of the German muslim lobby they now where only a veil and not no longer the burka.
EU proposal Sounds like something from the Greens. Like their crazy plans to introduce muslim's holidays. None of this will ever happen.
British Bonds I don't see a problem with that.
I don't know about the rest, but I advise you Lynn to stop reading the Spiegel, it's like the German version of the New York Times.
I don't know how to say this
April 28, 2007 - 16:27 ET by dmntd1I don't know how to say this without, at the very least, sounding rude, so forgive me in advance... You advised Lynn (therefore, the rest of us) to stop reading the Spiegel, as it's the German version of the NYT. What then, would you advise us to read to get a more fair version of your country?
I'd be honored to tell you what to read here, but so far, I'm still not sure what to read!
On a not previous, you mentioned the German Schools, and said that the news article from jihadwatch.org is biased, and while so is USNews and World Report, the article is originally FROM USN&WR.
Please make sure your train of thought carries freight.
I suggest http://www.euronews
April 28, 2007 - 17:04 ET by BAUHAUSI suggest http://www.euronews..... IHMO the most unbiased news source I've lately came across.
German Schools
This story can't possibly be true. You need to know that only a handful of schools get Islam teached at school. Mainly in the big cities. And the German School Authority spends much attention that those who teach are no radicals. I also have seen a documentation about those teachers. Don't worry, they are well spoken, believ in the true form of Islam (the peaceful) and most of them don't even were religious symbols like the beard. That article is rather alarmism than real journalism.
According to many European ne
April 29, 2007 - 04:33 ET by Lynn DavidsonAccording to many European news sources (some of which surely acceptable to you) and the principal, Marion Berning it did happen. Suppposedly it was also reported in the Berlin Daily Mail, too. If you don't believe it, then search for it in your own country search engines. That way you get the original story in German.
I'm sure they were very well spoken and believe in the "true" form of Islam, don't wear beards and claim to be moderates. Those adjectives could have been used by neighbors to describe the 9/11 hijackers before they followed through with their plans. Besides, many "moderate" Muslims don't believe that women have the same rights as men. What is alarmism, the fact that a newspaper reported Berning's claims at all? Let's say that you find a source that you accept and believe it happened; then what would you think about Europe caving to Islamic demands?
A German judgeShe wasn't a re
April 29, 2007 - 04:45 ET by Lynn DavidsonA German judge
She wasn't a real judge. She was a Schöffin (something like a juror with background in law). Her comment stirred up a debate whether we're "surrendering" to Islam. After she said that she was sacked and some commenters think all she wanted was to provoke.
Call her a judge or whatever, she is a German official denying a divorceto a woman claiming domestic abuse and death threats based on the Koran and the Islamic law from another country.
German schools I have never ever heard of that. I believe that is a lie. Just look at the source, jihadwatch.org seems to me very biased.
Come on Bauhaus, it is too easy and lazy for you to use the leftist trick of burying or denying statements because of the website that it came from, regardless of its validity. Follow the link or search online if you question it. If you had, you would have foun that story reported by many other sources. Try 'marion berning germany' and you will find sites that are willing to believe like the original story , DeutchWelle.com and Spiegel. Or are they also biased and therefore all information they provide should be ignored, regardless of how many other sites and news media back it up?
EU proposal Sounds like something from the Greens. Like their crazy plans to introduce muslim's holidays. None of this will ever happen.
Like Paris banning the thong bikini fron its beaches during the summer? Or government offices in England banning Piglet and other images of pigs ? The country that mocks the US for puritanism, popularized the dirty postcard, gave the world topless dancing girls at the Moulin Rouge and is so closely aligned with sexual freedom that a kiss was named after the nation, is now banning the thong because polliticians were afraid that showing a little skin "could provoke dangerous temptations and behaviour." When did the French suddenly become more modest than a suburban swimming pool in Texas?
The EU proposal was "strongly" resisted by "liberal Sweden," but the point is, it was proposed. Hey! Let's get rid of European law, adopt the laws of a foreign country and set women's rights back 700 hundred years! What's next, requiring four witnesses for women who report a rape or stoning to death gay men? It's crazy, and I can't believe you don't see the danger.
I don't know about the rest, but I advise you Lynn to stop reading the Spiegel, it's like the German version of the New York Times.
Wow. If Europeans believe that the NYT is a right-wing, pro-American, anti-Muslim newspaper, then they probably won't mind sharia. I look forward to those new sharia Parisian fashions. It will make those East German clothes look positively risque and daring...and attractive. See, that was a joke. That is not hate speech or an indication that America is teetering toward fascsim.
If you don't see the problem with allowing a religion to dictate governental policy, then I suggest you substitute Islam with Scientology, fundamentalist Baptism or Anabaptist Christianitiy (Amish) and see how willing Europe is to change laws and policies for those relgions. I doubt England will begin teaching that psychiatrists are quacks (meaning they don't know what they are doing) and ban anti-depressants, ban dancing and popular music or teach that buttons are the devil's handiwork (evil). What other religion could get a European school to teach that women are only mothers and shouldn't work or contradict men?
Don't you think it is a little bit sexist to teach that women are not equal to men? If German officials are telling women that domestic abuse is not a reason to expedite a divorce, then I can't wait until German school girls are taught how to cover up bruises put on them by their husbands because it is allowed in Islam, supported in the Koran and legal in Morocco.
Viva le thong!!!
Come on Bauhaus, it is too ea
April 29, 2007 - 07:08 ET by BAUHAUSCome on Bauhaus, it is too easy and lazy for you to use the leftist trick of burying or denying statements because of the website that it came from, regardless of its validity. Follow the link or search online if you question it. If you had, you would have foun that story reported by many other sources. Try 'marion berning germany' and you will find sites that are willing to believe like the original story , DeutchWelle.com and Spiegel. Or are they also biased and therefore all information they provide should be ignored, regardless of how many other sites and news media back it up?
What is really strange that I can't find anything of Marion Berning or VIKZ. I looked at FAZ (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitungs) and Sueddeutsche, both are conservative newspapers and Berlins' Berliner Morgenpost also had nothing about your story.
I also looked at the German version of Spiegel, but coudn't find anything about your story. I wonder why this article is only avaiable in English but not in German. Apperently I'm wrong about the Spiegel International, I didn't know that it was publishing different articles. That's why I compared it to the NYT, I really thought they are equal.
The only thing I found was a court ruling that muslim pupils have to attend swimming classes. http://www.morgenpos... In this article Berning's name is mentioned.
When I look at the German version of Google and search 'Marion Berning' I find lots of articles mainly about schools in general, but nothing in particluar of Islam. Only when I look for 'Marion Berning Islam' I get articles of none-newspapers about your story.
This is all very strange to me. Either you're right and Europe is surrendering to Islam or some people are paranoid or try to make a fast buck. Like always the truth is somewhere in between. That makes even me feel unsecure now.
EU proposal
I don't think that European will ever really adopt foreign laws, but I also realized something strange these days. Why are those feminists not campaigning openly against the veil. There are a few who do so, but the big majority is doing more campaigning for management jobs for females than for those basic rights. This isn't different in the US too, isn't it?
Again, those stories accumulate these days. Maybe we really have creeping islamification.
By the way. A party has recently been formed to do something against this creeping islamification. Although I'm not sure if this is not counterproductive.
I also should add that the cu
April 29, 2007 - 11:50 ET by BAUHAUSI also should add that the current situation in Europe is similar with Iraq. Just because the media reports only about car bombs doesn't mean nothing else happens.
I really think Islam is at its own crossroad. Either it becomes more secular or more radical. Just look at Turkey, there are many secular muslims but also very religious ones.
Google US WebGoogle.de WebGoo
April 29, 2007 - 20:07 ET by Lynn DavidsonGoogle US Web
Google.de Web
Google.de news
Pew Forum (left-leaning), dw-world.de (in English)
Spiegel (2 articles--one Eng, with quote I read by Marion Berning & one De)
US News-- first paragraph
German language die tageszeitung (I have NO idea what this is)
New York Times article copied on another site.
I can't read German, but I see her name. You'll have to look at them to see which ones apply. I see several of them refering to German-language sites, like Spiegel. She is also referenced in English-language sites, several of which I gave in the comment above. Take your pick.
From your comments, you don't seem to believe any news that comes from "conservative" sites in any country. Over ten media sources (that is without looking very long) in three countries wrote about this incident with consistent reporting. Is that not enough, or do you just want to see it reported by a media source that you agree with ideologically?
Just because I don't ideologically agree with media sources, doesn't mean that I automatically decide that they are lying. Try reading different media. It's good that you are stepping out of your comfort zone (doing something different than what you are familar with) and reading Newsbusters (extra kudos for doing it in a different language!), but open up to the idea that conservative sites might be reporting real events.
Try searching "Marion Berning school" or "Marion Berning germany" or "marion berning muslim" without the quotation marks.
But Germany already has referenced foreign law and lawmakers are proposing it now. I wrote about this in another post. Feminists stopped caring about how women are treated in Islam somewhere between the late 1990s and 9/11. They no longer believe that Muslim women are subjugated or that Female Genital Mutilation is an issue to persue. Now feminists either claim that Islam actually liberates women, they stay silent.
Again, those stories accumulate these days. Maybe we really have creeping islamification.
It is something to be aware of, and if you are alarmed by something, whether it is Germany following sharia law or a neo-Nazi group gaining ground because of this issue, complain to your government.