In a typical move, Europeans want to ban something they don’t like. In an English-language article, the Danish Heise Online reported several members of the European Parliament, which is the elected body of the European Union, will submit a draft of a declaration next week that “calls on providers in somewhat vague language to make provisions against "hate pages" part of their standard terms and conditions” with the ultimate goal to “banish racism and hate propaganda from the Internet altogether. This is the same environment in which publishing the satirical Jyllands-Posten Mohammad cartoons (images here)was considered an act of Islamophobia, and therefore hate speech. The draft specifically mentions Islamophobia in the preamble, which would likely mean that anti-terrorism sites like Little Green Footballs, the Brussels Journal and Melanie Phillips, publisher of the book, Londonistan could be labeled "hate speech" (emphasis mine throughout):
The ultimate object of the push by five EU Members of Parliament, Glyn Ford and Claude Moraes of the UK's Labour Party, the Hungarian Liberal Party member Viktoria Mohacsi and the two German European Members of Parliament Bern Posselt (Christian Social Union; CSU) and Feleknas Uca (The Left Party), is to banish racism and hate propaganda from the Internet altogether. The preamble to the declaration mentions anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and anti-Romany campaigns. Should the providers refuse to act more forcefully the five initiators of the declaration have vowed to pressure the European Commission into drafting appropriate legislation (the article includes links to the politicians' websites).
The Parlimentarians are essentially extorting Internet Service Providers to monitor and ban online “hate speech” and “hate" sites, and if the ISPs don’t, the five will begin making the policy law.
It sounds like the EU agrees with the leftist idea that “hate speech is not free speech.” The danger here, other than a slippery slope and limited speech, is that the EU will decide what hate speech is. Many in Europe believe that criticizing or making fun of Islam or denying its legitimacy is hate speech, and therefore verboten. Public schools in Scotland even said staring at Muslims is Islamophobia. Is it much of a stretch to think that sites dealing with Islamic terrorism, atheism or honor killings could be among those shut down with the neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers. What about sites such as those promoting Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the late Theo Van Gogh's movie “Submission” or Hirsi Ali’s books?
Of course, the US received some blame:
The Commission should, within the framework of the Safer Internet Plus program, do more to have such nefarious content removed, the parliamentarians declare. In addition it would be wise to learn from efforts undertaken in this regard by other countries, such as the United States, the MPs write. It is there, however, that many of the anti-Semitic pages that so upset the Europeans are hosted and where by invoking the First Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits Congress from making any law "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press," such pages are able to last.
A very telling phrase is at the end of the article. It discussed the “delicate question” which the draft does not address of “where to draw the line between pages a company should on no account host and those it might find offensive but not be expected to do anything about.” Would the Jyllands-Posten cartoons fall into that category? It seems the idea of abhorring speech, yet recognizing its right to exist never made it across the ocean.
In many countries it is illegal to deny the Holocaust or in Germany, support neo-Nazi groups. Europe tried to restrict online “hate speech” at least one other time, in 2002, which the US flatly rejected, and in 2006, the EU unsuccessfully tried to regulate online video content.
(h/t Ars Technica)
Lynn can be reached at: tvisgoodforyou2ATyahoo.com (Email was altered to prevent spam. Change “AT” to the usual “@” to email me)
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
The EU is toast.
April 25, 2007 - 09:41 ET by Dave RMany in Europe believe that criticizing or making fun of Islam or denying its legitimacy is hate speech, and therefore verboten.
It appears the Euro-pee-on Union has decided to cave-in to their future Islamic masters without so much as a wimper.
Good riddance, I say.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Euro-pee-on Union Is this
April 25, 2007 - 13:24 ET by BAUHAUSEuro-pee-on Union
Is this funny to you?
More sardonic than funny
April 25, 2007 - 13:32 ET by RJConsidering the rest of the post, I'd guess it's intended to be more sardonic than funny.
I still don't like it.
April 25, 2007 - 13:35 ET by BAUHAUSI still don't like it.
Boo Hoo Bauhaus
April 25, 2007 - 13:41 ET by RJWell, Boo Hoo, Bauhaus. Dave's point is accurate.
Mighty sensitive there aren't
April 25, 2007 - 13:41 ET by bigtimerMighty sensitive there aren't you Bauhaus?
I thought it was a great play on words...lighten up once in awhile.
Geesh.
It's simply offensive to me.
April 25, 2007 - 13:49 ET by BAUHAUSIt's simply offensive to me. Just my opinion.
Don't worry, Bauhaus. The E
April 25, 2007 - 13:54 ET by RJDon't worry, Bauhaus. The EU would be certain to ban it....
It made me laugh, just like y
April 25, 2007 - 13:57 ET by florida_chadIt made me laugh, just like your profile.
... just like your profile.
April 25, 2007 - 14:05 ET by BAUHAUS... just like your profile.
Just the plain truth.
your truth - which is differe
April 25, 2007 - 14:10 ET by florida_chadyour truth - which is different from the actual truth.
Whatever you say.
April 25, 2007 - 14:13 ET by BAUHAUSWhatever you say.
April 25, 2007 - 16:34 ET by Dave R
oops
BAUHAUS,Is this funny to you?
April 25, 2007 - 16:47 ET by Dave RBAUHAUS,
Is this funny to you?
Well, it would depend on ones point of view.
As a student of history, and one who is not exactly unfamiliar with the extremely bloody history of Europe, I have always found it quite amusing that the inhabitants of said continent have been able to conjure up the audacity to criticize the United States of America for anything, particularly our use of military action.For the last sixty-plus years, this country has possessed the most formidable military power the world has ever seen, yet we have employed it most sparingly and with a great deal of restraint-far more than we should have IMHO.
We could literally take over this entire planet if we so desired, and nobody could really do anything about it. Yet we have not done so.As I look back through history, I have a very difficult time believing that most of the major players in this world, had they possessed the power that we have, would have employed that same power as judiciously as have we.
Furthermore, nearly every country of Europe, including the residents of the U.K., owe their very existence to this country. The United States of America has rescued that unfortunate continent from living under tyranny twice in the last century, yet these same ingrates, or their immediate descendants, have the unmittigated gaul to wag their finger at this country, while lecturing us on how we choose to defend it.
Unless you have been residing in a cave since the late seventies, you have robably noticed that the barbaric Islamic horde is in the process of reconquering most of the areas they occupied prior to theCrusades. Apparently, they have decided to resume the war Mohammed declared against the civilized world all those centuries ago. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, they have actually accelerated their progress, and, for a wole lot of reasons, of which the current disparity in birthrates is only one, are very close to occupying the same lands they did prior to the Crusades.
They aren't going to stop there, however. They have, as their stated goal, promised to spread Sharia law over the entire known world. As things currently stand, aside from a mere handful of countries in various parts of the world, including Australia, the United States my very well become the only power able to stem the Islamic tide. Sadly, if history is any example, the civilized world appears to beunwilling to do what it takes to stop it before it gets out-of-hand. At the moment, I am unfortunately including this country in that group.
Spain has essentially already surrendered to them. France is well on its way to doing so, and the U.K will probably be next, as they appear to be about to throw in the towel in Iraq, as well as at home. Many areas of Asia and Africa aren't far behind, either, as they are seeing a huge resurgence on the part of the Islamic horde. Western society has, for the most part, shown the Islamic barbarians nothing but weakness. Even in this country we have an entire political party that represents roughly half of the U.S. voting public that appears to willing to throw in the towel as well. This is playing right into the hands of the Islamic horde.
And yet, given all this, the E.U. has decided to outlaw critism of these same Islamists that will, in the not too distant future, be the ones who will be pressing the barrels of their AK's against the backs of these same Europeans and forcing them to pray toward Mecca five times a day. Those who refuse will, most likely, be killed.
They will have no one to blame other than themselves.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.- Neal Boortz.
Nicely said, Dave.I particula
April 25, 2007 - 18:02 ET by BlondeNicely said, Dave.
I particularly liked your spelling of "gaul"...so appropriate when speaking of the euros, and the frogs. :)
Blonde,That's what happ
April 26, 2007 - 05:50 ET by Dave RBlonde,
That's what happens when I think about the French. :-)
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Can you say something else th
April 26, 2007 - 10:17 ET by BAUHAUSCan you say something else than "Nicely said". I always read the same from you. Or is confirming all you can do.
Oh yeah, BAUHAUS,I can say al
April 26, 2007 - 18:18 ET by BlondeOh yeah, BAUHAUS,
I can say alot more than that.
That's just a typical little trollish provocation on your part....doesn't bother me in the least. First grade "nah nah nah" post all the way. Sheesh.
Shall I say you germans are arrogant beyond belief, for a people who've had your heads handed to you twice in the last century, by the United States.... That germans are so ultra paranoid that you now have to have official "hate speech" legislation....That you are so supremly arrogant that you feel you can freely criticize that which you don't understand?
Just so you don't misunderstand me, I could hardly care what you have to say about me....and if I choose to compliment my fellow posters here, what exactly is that to you? Other than to take some "false offense" and to try to get into some argument, which you surely shall lose.
Try again.
At least no American is arrog
April 27, 2007 - 03:37 ET by BAUHAUSAt least no American is arrogant beyond belief and especially not you.
Spain has essentially already
April 26, 2007 - 10:13 ET by BAUHAUSSpain has essentially already surrendered to them
Example please.
And yet, given all this, the E.U. has decided to outlaw critism of these same Islamists that will, in the not too distant future, be the ones who will be pressing the barrels of their AK's against the backs of these same Europeans and forcing them to pray toward Mecca five times a day. Those who refuse will, most likely, be killed.
What you write all makes sense. We are surrendering to Islam. That's why Muslim women aren't allowed to wear a veil while teaching in schools. And that's also the reason why Metin Kaplan [1] is banned from Germany. You're so right.
And obviously you're so smart not to understand that with this law radical forms of Islam are offically banned in the whole EU. It is by the way banned form years in Germany.
That's all part of the European Plan To Surrender.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan
Spain has essentially alrea
April 26, 2007 - 11:43 ET by Dave RSpain has essentially already surrendered to them
Example please.
Easy. Spain had a government in place that was somewhat resistent to the Muslim horde and supportive of us in our efforts against the spread of "radical" Islam.
BOOM!
Trains are blown up just before Spain's national election by members of the "peaceful" religion of Islam. Spanish population panics and promptly votes in the peace at any price socialist government types who have done nothing but appease the barbarians ever since.
Huge victory for Radical Islam. Sad day for what remains of the civilized world.
That's all part of the European Plan To Surrender.
The decision whether or not to surrender to the Muslims may already be out of their hands.
Look at the birthrates in Europe as they pertain to native Europeans vs. Muslim immigrants. Europeans are not having children at anywhere near the rate that the Muslims are. If this trend continues, the Muslim populations all over Europe will grow to the point where they will become a considerable force in the governments of said countries.
Not a good thing for Western Society.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Easy. Spain had a government
April 26, 2007 - 12:11 ET by BAUHAUSEasy. Spain had a government in place that was somewhat resistent to the Muslim horde and supportive of us in our efforts against the sread of "radical" Islam.
You're so stupid. There's no prove at all in your comment.
Look at the birthrates in Europe as they pertain to native Europeans vs. Muslim immigrants. Europeans are not having children at anywhere near the rate that the Muslims are. If this trend continues, the Muslim populations all over Europe will grow to the point where they will become a considerable force in the governments of said countries.
You sound exactly like the American racists i saw on TV. The same theories just about Blacks.
Not a good thing for Western Society.
Glad we're still part of our Western Society.
BaU, not only are you deaf, b
April 26, 2007 - 12:16 ET by bassndudeBaU, not only are you deaf, but your blind and stupid also. Those are not theories, they are facts that are in the printed record. Go on, read about it. Google it if your to stupid to look for yourself.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
You're so stupid. There's n
April 26, 2007 - 12:24 ET by Dave RYou're so stupid. There's no prove at all in your comment.
BAU, on exactly which planet have you been residing for the last three years?
Does the term Madrid train bombings mean anything to you?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
And when you country is exper
April 26, 2007 - 12:28 ET by BAUHAUSAnd when you country is experiencing a terrorist attack it is surrendering to Islam? Your logic makes no sense at all.
And by your logic the US has also surrenderd to Islam because of 9/11.
Bau,Read this.
April 26, 2007 - 12:29 ET by Dave RBau,
Read this.
Then this.
And, after 9/11, we didn't turn around and vote the peace at any price democrats into office, which is our equivalent to the Euro-socialists.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
The first thing I read: Th
April 26, 2007 - 12:39 ET by BAUHAUSThe first thing I read:
The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.
Post the exact pharse your refering to.
Damn Bau, how deep was your head in that pile o' sand
April 26, 2007 - 12:50 ET by Dave RBau,
The attacks in Madrid came three days prior to the elections in Spain. The socialists were behind in the polls at that time, yet, three days after the bombings, the Spanish voted the socialists into power.
This is a fact of history. It occurred back in '04. The whole world saw it happen.
Where were you?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
You understand that the spani
April 26, 2007 - 12:54 ET by BAUHAUSYou understand that the spanish mood changed because in their view the current administration couldn't protect them. So they replace it. Or is that too complex for you.
Bau, you have the intellectual depth of a fly swatter
April 26, 2007 - 13:10 ET by Dave RSo they decided to vote in a government which they knew was going to appease the Islamo-fascists, in the hopes that, if they were just nicer to the people who have, as their stated goal, world-wide domination over the infidel (that means anyone who is not a Muslim, or any Muslims they do not agree with) that somehow the Islamo-fascists would just go away and every thing would be just peachy.
All they really managed to do was further embolden the enemies of the civilized world. Now the Spaniards are sitting ducks and are subject to the whims of the Islamic illiterate barbarians.
They have, as did the citizens of the Roman Empire, lost the will to defend themselves.
They are toast, and they know it.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Read what I wrote again. They
April 27, 2007 - 03:35 ET by BAUHAUSRead what I wrote again. They thought another government offers better protection because apperently the other couldn't.
Seems reality is a foreign concept to you.
"Better protection?"
April 27, 2007 - 09:54 ET by RJ"Better protection?" No, just as Europe has historically done, the Spanish hoped to appease the extremists. Appeasement has never worked in the past (making it necessary for America to repeatedly bail Europe out) and it didn't work for Spain today.
Europe allows itself to be raped
April 27, 2007 - 10:01 ET by The Wicked ConservativeTake a look. I know it's been around for a while but this truth is apparently just another axiom of liberalism. Appeasement will lead to our demise, but at least no one will be offended.
The rape of Europe
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to aliberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
Logic, critical thought.
April 28, 2007 - 08:46 ET by NL207Logic, critical thought. These concepts seem to foreign to you, Herr Haus.
I will explain the Spanish debacle for you since you are unable to comprehend the situation for yourself. Radical Islam in the personages of Al Qaeda did not like Spanish policy. In an attempt to influence that policy, the Islamofascists carried out a mass train bombing. A craven Spanish electorate caved in to that act of war, effectively surrendered, and voted in a new government with a policy favorable to the Islamofascists, thereby surrendering their sovreignty to the Islamofascists.
You, of course, do not believe this. I will pose this question which will clarify the situation for you: What do you suppose the Islamofascists are going to do the next time Spain has something they want and the Spanish refuse to deliver it on demand?
The situation the Spanirds faced was no different than that the Allies faced at Munich in 1938. There, the weak minded fool, Neville Chamberlain, capitulated to a bully and bought "peace in our time". His time proved to be all to short.
How long do you have?
Today I converted to Islam an
April 28, 2007 - 15:13 ET by BAUHAUSToday I converted to Islam and Communism to appease my new masters.
I gave up all my liberties which I, according to you never had, and live now under Shariah law.
That was a joke. Hope you're able to understand it.
You're anyway superior to me, so why should I now bother what you write. You won't believe me anyway.
Read your link---
April 26, 2007 - 13:09 ET by misterbillRead your link---happy to see that Western Europe stood up to a radical.
The explosion at the train station did seem to affect Spain quite a bit. At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all, I will offer some opinions re: the European and American attitudes. I think that people forget history. At great cost of human life, the US has stepped in to help Europe on many occasions, Some has been help proffered by individual Americans, e.g. The Lincoln Brigade in Spain. Misguided or not, the American spirit waved its beliefs. WW1, WW2. The pilots in the Canadian Air Force before America was in WW2. Claire Chennault in China. Where was Europe? How many of us died to free conquered Europeans? What do we see in return? It may be largely due to the reporting by our biased press, but we see resentment where many feel we should see the hand of friendship for past endeavors, extended to us. We are called ugly, crude, rude and ignorant. Maybe we are, by the civilized judgment of Western Europe, but , that's a two way street, and by God, we are there when you need us. Why can't you be there when we need you? Now don't jump all over me--that is what I, and perhaps I alone, think is behind the rift.
Next is the lifestyles of the world. (And the moral code.) We are seen as decadent, yet, save Nevada, prostitution is illegal in the USA. I argue neither for or against that in this article, but there is an old West attitude in America. We have a hard time thinking of friends or families, etc. engaged in such fields. So to some of us, Europe is , again, quite decadent. Europe seems to be quite willing to sacrifice some liberties to maintain this lifestyle. You, at one point referenced some favorable newspaper articles in the European press about us. Do you honestly think that any American media would ever show that to us??? You, in Europe are as much a victim of the US MSM as we are.
It is easy for me to deliver this treatise, since I am far to old to serve in the military anymore. But, by Heaven, I did and I did it to help another country that was under attack by its Northern neighbor: were I able, and you neede help, I would want my country to answer the call again to help you. We put Germany back on its feet after the horrifics that country put upon other European countries. We work on the premise that there are any number of good, decent folks in any country that deserve the chance to live in peace and dignity.We are "cowboys". We fight for right. And if we make mistakes, we ask you as friends , to forgive us and to keep helping us make the world a better place. We inflict no religious beliefs on any of you. We merely ask you to stand up and be counted in the fight against evil in the world. Be it evil concealed in a religious front or in a racial or ethnical base.Do not judge us by our Harry Reid's. God will handle him.
So, in closing, in this one old man's opinion, you do not offer us the true hand of friendship that we feel that our blood and the blood of our fathers spent on your soil warrants. All of Europe should have a Continental holiday. That day should be May 7, in honor of the anniversary of the unconditional surrender of all German forces. (Perhaps you could say, God bless you, Audie Murphy.)
Read your link---happy to see
April 27, 2007 - 03:14 ET by BAUHAUSRead your link---happy to see that Western Europe stood up to a radical. We've been doing this since the founding of The Federal Republic of Germany. That's the only job of the Verfassungsschutz (Constitution Protection)
European and American attitudes.
I understand your view. And I like most Europeans are thankful for our involvement during WW2. I'm thankful for destroying that ill ideology but you won't hear a thanks for killing my ancestors. I think you can understand that.
You wrote: What do we see in return?
What do you expect? You know that Europe is in Afgahinstan only because of the US. I can imagine you in American don't hear anything what Europeans are doing around the world. I can't speak for all Europeans, but I can speak for Germany. But it is the German Army that has war correspondents in Mogadishu and Sudan. Or Germans like Reinhard Erös who continues to build schools in Afgahnistan although his 4 year old son died there. Then it is securing the Libanese Coast, rebuilding Kosovo and patrolling along the African Coast (Horn of Africa) as part of Enduring Freedom. Does this all not count?
EU-USA-MSM
I've never seen TV in the US but looking a CNN's German correspondent Frederick Pleitgen I'm not surprised. His reporting is definitly Anti-German.
But what are you expecting. The US is a Media Superpower which can't handle it right. Are you aware the Anti-Americanism is mainly fueled by TV shows like MTV's Sweet Sixteen (that smug's birthday show) or American Talkshows like Jerry Springer. We are seeing them. And they are disgusting. I know it's not your vault but why am I here at NB constantly under fire for being European. No one ask what's my opinion on the War against Iraq. No one knows that it's me arguing alone against 25 students that the War against Iraq is legal and a good thing. What ever I say I'm pushed into the 'All Europeans are Socialist and hate America'-corner. I'm sick and tired of it.
BAU at the risk of sounding like a toady---
April 27, 2007 - 10:33 ET by misterbillBAU at the risk of sounding like a toady---I was not attacking you. Perhaps my writing leaves something to be desired. I was trying to explain to you what I feel most Americans are like and why they have the attitudes they do.
Were you to disagree, I would definitely challenge you on my opinion that most Americans are good people at heart, thus the comment about being cowboys.
We are absolutely in accord on the American MSM. It is sad. Jerry Springer should have been spent to spend his formative years in a monastic cell. He is disgusting. A great deal of American TV is disgusting. I am older with far more conservative values in entertainment than a lot of Americans--my wife and I seldom go to movies anymore because of lewdness and profanity. The drug culture is something I simply do not understand. It has played havoc with my family.
"Does this all not count?" Absolutely, to me, it counts a lot.
I have seen on this site, that it is ANTICIPATED that you are opposed to America and the war and so forth. I have not seen that in your posts. I have seen explanations of cultural differences. I hold you no more under fire for being European than I am for being American. You provide information which we may not otherwise hear. I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to share that data with us.
"I can imagine you in American don't hear anything what Europeans are doing around the world.
" Bingo, we don't, we only hear what our hate-filled one-sided journalists(?) want us to hear or read. I am afraid that is true worldwide.
You and NB members share a common problem. I will call it, simply, misreporting.
In another vein, I would very much like to read your opinions about the "Islamification of Europe."
Where ’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land?
Sir Walter Scott
Misterbill, I know you were n
April 28, 2007 - 14:32 ET by BAUHAUSMisterbill, I know you were not attacking me, but those outrageous other comments let me boil over with anger.
A great deal of American TV is disgusting. I am older with far more conservative values in entertainment than a lot of Americans--my wife and I seldom go to movies anymore because of lewdness and profanity. The drug culture is something I simply do not understand. It has played havoc with my family.
What you might not know is that such values are exported to the world at the expense of the image of your country. And with 'exported' I mean really flooded.
"Does this all not count?" Absolutely, to me, it counts a lot.
That's good.
I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to share that data with us. Sure, although I had never expected so much Anti-Euro sentiment. But your comments always rebuild my faith in the American People when it's destroyed by hatefilled comments.
" Bingo, we don't, we only hear what our hate-filled one-sided journalists(?) want us to hear or read. I am afraid that is true worldwide. I wonder why, do these people want war. Is journalism to difficult for them or are they simply unable to write the truth.
Like one German philosopher said once: "Is this still the truth or already journalism?"
In another vein, I would very much like to read your opinions about the "Islamification of Europe."
Before I answer, what exactly are you meaning. The integration of muslims into the European Society. How we deal with Islam. Or how some at NB say it 'The Surrender Of Europe To Islam'.
I'm asking because all that would be very much to write.
To say at least it's far less grave than what you might have heard.
And Walther, you really gave me back hope in the American people.
PS: Did you know that Henry Kissinger (my favorite American Secretary of State if I had to choose) is honorary citizen of the state Baden-Württemberg. (That's were I live)
BAUHAUS --the "Islam" question
April 29, 2007 - 10:37 ET by misterbillBAUHAUS --the "Islam" question--when I read the news on the internet--I see statistics on % of muslims in various EU countries, birthrates of the immigrants versus the native population and dire predictions that by 2050 the Muslim population in each country of Europe will be greater than natives, therefore Europe will bea Muslim continent. One comment before the question--I think you know that Americans are quite suspicious of the Muslim people. They do not protest the evil deeds of the radicals--this is not good. It leads us to suspect that the majority of Muslims want to convert the rest of the world--forcibly, if necessary. Not good.
Now to the question(s)-- you read my first comment above (2050)--
1. is this true, possibly true??
2. You obviously do not agree with "surrender of Europe to Islam". Please share how far wrong I am to believe that.
misterbill,Here's some good n
April 29, 2007 - 10:42 ET by Blondemisterbill,
Here's some good news from Turkey regarding the islamists.
blonde==thanks
April 29, 2007 - 11:08 ET by misterbillblonde==thanks-- encouraging ---we should watch it closely. Let us hope that they do not go as far as some in America are trying to go with secularism. They should still be able to mention Allah's name in their schools and in their political sessions.
But again, good news!!!!
One comment before the questi
May 1, 2007 - 04:37 ET by BAUHAUSOne comment before the question--I think you know that Americans are quite suspicious of the Muslim people. They do not protest the evil deeds of the radicals--this is not good. It leads us to suspect that the majority of Muslims want to convert the rest of the world--forcibly, if necessary. Not good.
I know, and no offensense but I'm not surprised. I once saw a representative of a US muslim lobby group and he was such an arrogant asshole. Proud of his citizenship but not very friendly towards the American people. I'm not 100% sure if they try to convert everyone, but there are a few people who converted to Islam (in Germany the number was 14000) and as usual when I see converts regardless of their origin I wonder why they converted. I simply don't get it.
But to get back to your post. In this thread I got under fire because Germany is not supporting every religion like it's Christianity while in the US every religion is treated equally. Maybe that's the reason there are no protests. Maybe the radical muslims who want to convert everyone see the US as a open ground waiting to get developed.
I know how the police and the intelligence handle radicals in Germany, how are they handled in you country?
Would you say there's also a creeping islamification in the US.
The Islam question
I also have heard of those studies. And they're true. If you have your study based on that immigrants have in general more children than natives and will continue to do so, the study is right.
e.g. if an immigrant family has 5 children and every children has also 5 children and so on, there will be on the long term perspective be more immigrants than natives. That's a fact.
But what makes the authors so sure that exactly this will happen?
I see this a little different. Here's my explanation.
First you need to find out why the first generation immigrants' family has so many children. That's because the vast majority immigrants that comes to Europe has farming background. And in farming regardless where on the Earth the farmers have many children, because they are cheap labour. This was true in Europe before the industrialisation, it's true in China, true in Africa and true in the Middle East. Until this point those studies are correct.
But immigrants in Europe don't become farmers, so for the economical reason there is no need for children.
e.g. Compare Afro-Americans with Africans. I don't need to do much research to know that not every Afro-American family has so many children as the 'Cosby Show'-family [1] while in Africa families tend to have many children for the economical reason I mentioned above.
Then there is also a very important factor. The correlation of poverty and children outside farming.
As you should know, raising kids is expensive. The more you have the more they cost. You need to know that most immigrants have bad or no education and therefore are usually working as blue-collar workers.
Those are the first generation immigrants. They raise their children in poverty. I'll call those the second generation. Their children because of a failing parental house, a negativ immigrants' culture (they don't integrate themselves good enough) and despite access to good education they end up at best as blue-collar workers. Many second generation immigrants already had trouble with the police. And also a high stake leaves school without any graduation.
That's true for whole Europe. Just look why those immigrants rioted in France.
Negative for them will also be that the European economy will continue to reduce its demand for cheap workers. Either they leave Europe or become unemployed persons. To round it up in one sentense altough it sounds very tough. They have to live with the fact that they will be poor. It's a vicious circle.
Not a rosy future for them, and therefore I don't think the will have that many children.
And then there's my personal view of the second immigrants attitude.
I can hardly imagine that those people, only interested in getting drunk every weekend and driving a pimped BMW will also be interested in raising something like 5 children. But thats only my view.
As you can see, I based my 'study' mainly on the human factor.
I don't know if it is true, but I heard that in the Middle East there are more men than women. That could also reduce birthrates.
Maybe I also should explain why native Europeans' birthrate appear so low. Again thats very complex. But one explanation would be that an increasing number of native Europeans go to university. And therefore are longer occupied with education.
e.g Myself, I plan having kids when I'm 30-35 years old. My grandparents had kids when they we're something around 20. It appears that you have a shortage, but it doesn't mean that in the future there will be less children of native Europeans, it means that they will have them latter.
For the Surrender of Europe to Islam you have to wait for tomorrow, I need to get to university.
BAUHAUS.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cosby_Show
BAUHAUS
May 1, 2007 - 22:57 ET by misterbill"Would you say there's also a creeping islamification in the US."
Yes--but through immigration far more than conversion. We, Americans are too engrossed in our daily activities to pay attantion to what our government is allowing to happen. We were especially founded on a Judeo-Christian basis. A;; of my readings and study define us that way. We would most probably never give a second thought to any problems with another religion (e.g. Islam), if it did not try to enforce its religious rule into our secular life. We respect Ramadan, Seder, Christmas, and many other religious customs and holidays.
Unfortunately, it is being interpreted that Christianity is a threat to America if we celebrate Christian holidays or allow prayer in our schools. I, for one believe that every school should set up a classroom or area where children of each religion can repair to pay tribute to God in their own way. I have been honored in my life to have been friends with people of different religions, ethnicity and race. I think Americans spend a little too much time worrying about those issues.
"Maybe the radical muslims who want to convert everyone see the US as a open ground waiting to get developed."
I can only guess at this, but there are so damned many people who believe their religion is the one and only that it makes me cringe. I am content with who and what I am. I am also comfortable with any other religion that oes not spend its time proselytizing. That does not make me dislike their religion, it may irritate me at times.
"I know how the police and the intelligence handle radicals in Germany, how are they handled in you country?"
I plead ignorance. I only believe that our professionals are good at it. Much better today than before 9/11/2001.
I will post a second reply--this is getting quite long.
BAUHAUS Part 2
May 1, 2007 - 23:16 ET by misterbill"The Islam question" --"But what makes the authors so sure that exactly this will happen?"
You have explained that above---when people emigrate to other (us. more Western), countries, they bring with them what you have mentioned re: farming. They also bring with them a culture in which contraception is not practiced ,for many reasons, but IMHO the main 2 reasons are--ignorance and religion. So short of death and taxes, one could argue that nothing else is certain.
"They have to live with the fact that they will be poor. It's a vicious circle."
Only partially true. It is a catch 22 more than a vicious circle. If the children are willing to "suck it up", they can take advantage of opportunities, (at least in America), that will place their generation in better circumstances than their parents. I strongly believe that this is by making every effort to be assimilated in their new country. (My grandparents did and so did my parents.) My grandparents had accents but spoke excellent English. If I were to migrate to Germany (Joke here) at your kind invitation, I would make very effort to become conversant in your language.
"Maybe I also should explain why native Europeans' birthrate appear so low. Again thats very complex. But one explanation would be that an increasing number of native Europeans go to university. And therefore are longer occupied with education."
If that is so, then the problem will rectify itself over time. However what is far more likely to happen is exactly what has happened throughout history in conquered countries. Intermarriage. Now, the problem is not ethnic, it is religious only. But, that is far more dangerous than ethnic issues. That is why, I believe that Europe will be mostly Islam within 25 years.
I have my doubts this will ha
May 3, 2007 - 14:24 ET by BAUHAUSI have my doubts this will happen. You really need to look at the second generation. Trust me, this aren't the muslims you're thinking of. Rather like Ghetto kids. (I don't no how to express this more politely)
They are not immigrants in the way of Europeans who came to America. That's why I don't think they will ever break the catch-22 situation. (The German word is Teufelskreis (devil's circle), thats why I wrote vicious circle)
Taking advantage of opportunities is more difficult theses days anyway. e.g. in the past starting your own motor company was easy (okay not easy as starting a restaurant but achievable). But compared to today, it's nearly impossible. And that's true for several other businesses too.
We will see, I'll tell you in heaven how it turned out. And if it really gets that worse, there's always the US to immigrate. *g
Currently there is Conference between various muslim's lobbies and the government to find out if they respect our constitution or prefer sharia law. If it turns out they prefer sharia law, residence permits will get tighter and our constitution protection service will take care of them. Accepting our constitution is not negotiable. Here's a translation if you want to take a look. http://www.bundestag...
Here's also a link to a German ex-muslim lobby. http://www.ex-muslim...
Do you have such study handy. I would like to read it.
PS: If the Democrates become president you can always immigrate to Germany where the south is governed by conservatives for 60 years. *g
Example please (of EU followi
April 26, 2007 - 13:54 ET by Lynn DavidsonExample please (of EU following sharia law, etc.)
The media have reported many stories such as the ones you are asking about. Here are a few that were in the news over the past year or two:
“A German judge rejected an application for a speedy divorce by referring to a passage in the Koran that some have controversially interpreted to mean that a husband can beat his wife.” The judge stated, "It must be taken into account that both man and wife have Moroccan backgrounds. I don’t think that could be any clearer.
German schools allow a fundamentalist Muslim group which the German government suspects is an “extremist organization” to teach religion classes in Berlin schools. A principal who snuck in after being banned from observing the classes in her own school, said that students are taught “women are for the house, for the children.” She said that since they began teaching, Muslim girls have dropped out of sports and field trips. Is Germany no longer concerned with gender equality and bigotry?
Germany is pushing for an EU proposal would allow the laws of non-EU countries to apply in divorce cases, meaning that sharia law would be the law of the land in the EU divorce courts.
London police began consulting "with a panel of Muslim leaders before mounting counter-terrorist operations." The panel will advise whether there is sufficient evidence and the potential consequences of the arrest. The UK did not consult with Catholic leaders when apprehending Catholic IRA terrorists.
Britain is conforming to sharia law. The UK issued sharia-compliant bonds. The governments of Pakistan and Malaysia have issued sharia-compliant bonds before, but never a western nation.
UK schools serving halal school lunches without telling parents. It violated Hindu students religious rules and offended the RSPCA and students who support animal rights. Other schools have banned pork altogether, which they did not do for Jewish students.
You get the SHACK prize today
April 26, 2007 - 14:23 ET by Airforce_5_OYou get the SHACK prize today Lynn. That was great!
Reduce the U.S. Carbon Footprint. Send Rosie to Iran. Airforce_5_O 04/04/2007
Thanks, but what's the "
April 26, 2007 - 18:10 ET by Lynn DavidsonThanks, but what's the "SHACK prize"?
A German judge She wasn't a
April 27, 2007 - 03:31 ET by BAUHAUSA German judge
She wasn't a real judge. She was a Schöffin (something like a juror with background in law). Her comment stirred up a debate whether we're "surrendering" to Islam. After she said that she was sacked and some commenters think all she wanted was to provoke.
By the way, Muslim's who stopped believing in Islam and are facing death threats are under special protection by the German state.
German schools I have never ever heard of that. I believe that is a lie. Just look at the source, jihadwatch.org seems to me very biased.
Have you heard of the students who were banned from school for wearing the burka. After lobbying of the German muslim lobby they now where only a veil and not no longer the burka.
EU proposal Sounds like something from the Greens. Like their crazy plans to introduce muslim's holidays. None of this will ever happen.
British Bonds I don't see a problem with that.
I don't know about the rest, but I advise you Lynn to stop reading the Spiegel, it's like the German version of the New York Times.
I don't know how to say this
April 28, 2007 - 15:27 ET by dmntd1I don't know how to say this without, at the very least, sounding rude, so forgive me in advance... You advised Lynn (therefore, the rest of us) to stop reading the Spiegel, as it's the German version of the NYT. What then, would you advise us to read to get a more fair version of your country?
I'd be honored to tell you what to read here, but so far, I'm still not sure what to read!
On a not previous, you mentioned the German Schools, and said that the news article from jihadwatch.org is biased, and while so is USNews and World Report, the article is originally FROM USN&WR.
Please make sure your train of thought carries freight.
I suggest http://www.euronews
April 28, 2007 - 16:04 ET by BAUHAUSI suggest http://www.euronews..... IHMO the most unbiased news source I've lately came across.
German Schools
This story can't possibly be true. You need to know that only a handful of schools get Islam teached at school. Mainly in the big cities. And the German School Authority spends much attention that those who teach are no radicals. I also have seen a documentation about those teachers. Don't worry, they are well spoken, believ in the true form of Islam (the peaceful) and most of them don't even were religious symbols like the beard. That article is rather alarmism than real journalism.
According to many European ne
April 29, 2007 - 03:33 ET by Lynn DavidsonAccording to many European news sources (some of which surely acceptable to you) and the principal, Marion Berning it did happen. Suppposedly it was also reported in the Berlin Daily Mail, too. If you don't believe it, then search for it in your own country search engines. That way you get the original story in German.
I'm sure they were very well spoken and believe in the "true" form of Islam, don't wear beards and claim to be moderates. Those adjectives could have been used by neighbors to describe the 9/11 hijackers before they followed through with their plans. Besides, many "moderate" Muslims don't believe that women have the same rights as men. What is alarmism, the fact that a newspaper reported Berning's claims at all? Let's say that you find a source that you accept and believe it happened; then what would you think about Europe caving to Islamic demands?
A German judgeShe wasn't a re
April 29, 2007 - 03:45 ET by Lynn DavidsonA German judge
She wasn't a real judge. She was a Schöffin (something like a juror with background in law). Her comment stirred up a debate whether we're "surrendering" to Islam. After she said that she was sacked and some commenters think all she wanted was to provoke.
Call her a judge or whatever, she is a German official denying a divorceto a woman claiming domestic abuse and death threats based on the Koran and the Islamic law from another country.
German schools I have never ever heard of that. I believe that is a lie. Just look at the source, jihadwatch.org seems to me very biased.
Come on Bauhaus, it is too easy and lazy for you to use the leftist trick of burying or denying statements because of the website that it came from, regardless of its validity. Follow the link or search online if you question it. If you had, you would have foun that story reported by many other sources. Try 'marion berning germany' and you will find sites that are willing to believe like the original story , DeutchWelle.com and Spiegel. Or are they also biased and therefore all information they provide should be ignored, regardless of how many other sites and news media back it up?
EU proposal Sounds like something from the Greens. Like their crazy plans to introduce muslim's holidays. None of this will ever happen.
Like Paris banning the thong bikini fron its beaches during the summer? Or government offices in England banning Piglet and other images of pigs ? The country that mocks the US for puritanism, popularized the dirty postcard, gave the world topless dancing girls at the Moulin Rouge and is so closely aligned with sexual freedom that a kiss was named after the nation, is now banning the thong because polliticians were afraid that showing a little skin "could provoke dangerous temptations and behaviour." When did the French suddenly become more modest than a suburban swimming pool in Texas?
The EU proposal was "strongly" resisted by "liberal Sweden," but the point is, it was proposed. Hey! Let's get rid of European law, adopt the laws of a foreign country and set women's rights back 700 hundred years! What's next, requiring four witnesses for women who report a rape or stoning to death gay men? It's crazy, and I can't believe you don't see the danger.
I don't know about the rest, but I advise you Lynn to stop reading the Spiegel, it's like the German version of the New York Times.
Wow. If Europeans believe that the NYT is a right-wing, pro-American, anti-Muslim newspaper, then they probably won't mind sharia. I look forward to those new sharia Parisian fashions. It will make those East German clothes look positively risque and daring...and attractive. See, that was a joke. That is not hate speech or an indication that America is teetering toward fascsim.
If you don't see the problem with allowing a religion to dictate governental policy, then I suggest you substitute Islam with Scientology, fundamentalist Baptism or Anabaptist Christianitiy (Amish) and see how willing Europe is to change laws and policies for those relgions. I doubt England will begin teaching that psychiatrists are quacks (meaning they don't know what they are doing) and ban anti-depressants, ban dancing and popular music or teach that buttons are the devil's handiwork (evil). What other religion could get a European school to teach that women are only mothers and shouldn't work or contradict men?
Don't you think it is a little bit sexist to teach that women are not equal to men? If German officials are telling women that domestic abuse is not a reason to expedite a divorce, then I can't wait until German school girls are taught how to cover up bruises put on them by their husbands because it is allowed in Islam, supported in the Koran and legal in Morocco.
Viva le thong!!!
Come on Bauhaus, it is too ea
April 29, 2007 - 06:08 ET by BAUHAUSCome on Bauhaus, it is too easy and lazy for you to use the leftist trick of burying or denying statements because of the website that it came from, regardless of its validity. Follow the link or search online if you question it. If you had, you would have foun that story reported by many other sources. Try 'marion berning germany' and you will find sites that are willing to believe like the original story , DeutchWelle.com and Spiegel. Or are they also biased and therefore all information they provide should be ignored, regardless of how many other sites and news media back it up?
What is really strange that I can't find anything of Marion Berning or VIKZ. I looked at FAZ (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitungs) and Sueddeutsche, both are conservative newspapers and Berlins' Berliner Morgenpost also had nothing about your story.
I also looked at the German version of Spiegel, but coudn't find anything about your story. I wonder why this article is only avaiable in English but not in German. Apperently I'm wrong about the Spiegel International, I didn't know that it was publishing different articles. That's why I compared it to the NYT, I really thought they are equal.
The only thing I found was a court ruling that muslim pupils have to attend swimming classes. http://www.morgenpos... In this article Berning's name is mentioned.
When I look at the German version of Google and search 'Marion Berning' I find lots of articles mainly about schools in general, but nothing in particluar of Islam. Only when I look for 'Marion Berning Islam' I get articles of none-newspapers about your story.
This is all very strange to me. Either you're right and Europe is surrendering to Islam or some people are paranoid or try to make a fast buck. Like always the truth is somewhere in between. That makes even me feel unsecure now.
EU proposal
I don't think that European will ever really adopt foreign laws, but I also realized something strange these days. Why are those feminists not campaigning openly against the veil. There are a few who do so, but the big majority is doing more campaigning for management jobs for females than for those basic rights. This isn't different in the US too, isn't it?
Again, those stories accumulate these days. Maybe we really have creeping islamification.
By the way. A party has recently been formed to do something against this creeping islamification. Although I'm not sure if this is not counterproductive.
I also should add that the cu
April 29, 2007 - 10:50 ET by BAUHAUSI also should add that the current situation in Europe is similar with Iraq. Just because the media reports only about car bombs doesn't mean nothing else happens.
I really think Islam is at its own crossroad. Either it becomes more secular or more radical. Just look at Turkey, there are many secular muslims but also very religious ones.
Google US WebGoogle.de WebGoo
April 29, 2007 - 19:07 ET by Lynn DavidsonGoogle US Web
Google.de Web
Google.de news
Pew Forum (left-leaning), dw-world.de (in English)
Spiegel (2 articles--one Eng, with quote I read by Marion Berning & one De)
US News-- first paragraph
German language die tageszeitung (I have NO idea what this is)
New York Times article copied on another site.
I can't read German, but I see her name. You'll have to look at them to see which ones apply. I see several of them refering to German-language sites, like Spiegel. She is also referenced in English-language sites, several of which I gave in the comment above. Take your pick.
From your comments, you don't seem to believe any news that comes from "conservative" sites in any country. Over ten media sources (that is without looking very long) in three countries wrote about this incident with consistent reporting. Is that not enough, or do you just want to see it reported by a media source that you agree with ideologically?
Just because I don't ideologically agree with media sources, doesn't mean that I automatically decide that they are lying. Try reading different media. It's good that you are stepping out of your comfort zone (doing something different than what you are familar with) and reading Newsbusters (extra kudos for doing it in a different language!), but open up to the idea that conservative sites might be reporting real events.
Try searching "Marion Berning school" or "Marion Berning germany" or "marion berning muslim" without the quotation marks.
But Germany already has referenced foreign law and lawmakers are proposing it now. I wrote about this in another post. Feminists stopped caring about how women are treated in Islam somewhere between the late 1990s and 9/11. They no longer believe that Muslim women are subjugated or that Female Genital Mutilation is an issue to persue. Now feminists either claim that Islam actually liberates women, they stay silent.
Again, those stories accumulate these days. Maybe we really have creeping islamification.
It is something to be aware of, and if you are alarmed by something, whether it is Germany following sharia law or a neo-Nazi group gaining ground because of this issue, complain to your government.
From your comments, you don't
May 1, 2007 - 13:56 ET by BAUHAUSFrom your comments, you don't seem to believe any news that comes from "conservative" sites in any country. Over ten media sources (that is without looking very long) in three countries wrote about this incident with consistent reporting. Is that not enough, or do you just want to see it reported by a media source that you agree with ideologically?
I think you got me a little wrong. Were you in a hurry as you read my comment?
I was looking at my conservative media sites, I trust those and therefore I looked at them, but the strange thing is that they had nothing about your story. That's what made me so suspicious.
Why is my media not reporting about this? Or why does no German version excists of the Spiegel article you showed me.
But Germany already has referenced foreign law and lawmakers are proposing it now. I wrote about this in another post. Feminists stopped caring about how women are treated in Islam somewhere between the late 1990s and 9/11. They no longer believe that Muslim women are subjugated or that Female Genital Mutilation is an issue to persue. Now feminists either claim that Islam actually liberates women, they stay silent.
This world is getting strange everyday. I had never imagend that I as a conservative one have to do the feminists job and fight for women rights.
But its the same with animal rights, does Greenpeace actually cares only a bit about the way radical muslims practice halal slaughter.
Brave new world.
It is something to be aware of, and if you are alarmed by something, whether it is Germany following sharia law or a neo-Nazi group gaining ground because of this issue, complain to your government.
That doesn't work here. I proposed once some ideas how to reduce violence in Afgahnistan, it were economical solutions, and what they wrote back was that my foreign affairs office has all the information I need on their website. Such idiots.
I re-read your responses and
May 5, 2007 - 03:39 ET by Lynn DavidsonIgnoring conservative sites: I re-read your responses and I did not get what you meant when I first read them. I think the comment about doubting Jihad Watch threw me. It is OK to doubt sites that have a particular slant, which Jihad Watch does, but when it is just a cut and paste of an article or a brief retelling of the facts, there's not much bias. So, I now get what you were saying, and it makes much more sense. When I was looking for the links to show you, I too noticed that there were no German-language articles. I looked on Google.de and was surprised when the only ones there were in English. I don't want to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist, but why the lack of coverage? Would it have been different if a fundamentalist Baptist group told girls the same thing? It would here.
Strange activist bedfellows:The new lineup of activists is indeed a Brave New World. Pass the Soma.
That doesn't work here. I proposed once some ideas how to reduce violence in Afgahnistan, it were economical solutions, and what they wrote back was that my foreign affairs office has all the information I need on their website.
Our government wouldn't be so snide about refusing ideas, it generally has a return email saying something like, "Thank you for your email. We value your opinion, but due to the volume, we are unable to respond personally." Who says Americans are rude? *s
It is the volume that gets attention, and sending to local politicians who have interns to sift through the communications and determine which way the wind is blowing.
Feminists and activists ignoring the misogyny, subjugation and violence: I was very surprised to find this information about Germany and disheartened. Setting women back to before the Dark Ages isn't the way to go. What's next, preventing them from inheriting property and driving cars? Better yet, how about the Koranic rape law that requres a women to produce four witnesses to be believed? After endorsing wife-beating and death threats, that's the next step. When I started reading articles by feminists and liberal writers extolling the true freedom of the veil, I knew the women's movement had truly become a joke.
Thanks, Lynn. I didn't have t
April 27, 2007 - 06:11 ET by Dave RThanks, Lynn.
I didn't have the time to dig it all up. Work kinda gets in the way. :-(
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.- Neal Boortz.
Heise is german. "H
April 25, 2007 - 09:42 ET by kafkakaeferHeise is german.
"Hegel says somewhere all great events and personalities in world history reappear in one fashion or another. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second as farce."
The Eighteeenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte (1852) sect. 1, Cf.
Heise is indeed German as is
April 25, 2007 - 11:15 ET by NL207Heise is indeed German as is Censorship and repression of unpopular political thought and activity. How can any nation claim to be free where ownership of private property and firearms are effectively banned as are various books, symbols and political parties?
Tell me this isn't so, Herr Beetle, and I will have some fine sport with you.
ownership of private property
April 25, 2007 - 13:32 ET by BAUHAUSownership of private property
What are you talking about? Have you noticed to fall of the Berlin Wall. It turned from DDR to BRD and not the other way round.
ownership of private property
Who needs them in a country with nearly no crime (so little it's not even worth to mention). And NL207 you can own firearms in Germany too.
various books, symbols and political parties?
You're aware what does represent. Don't you?
Think about it, what could it be that they're banned.
Tell me this isn't so, Herr Beetle, and I will have some fine sport with you.
I hope I didn't destroy your battle with my comments. Would have been interested to read.
State censorship is wrong no
April 25, 2007 - 13:44 ET by florida_chadState censorship is wrong no matter what the subject it.
What would you say if some Ar
April 25, 2007 - 13:48 ET by BAUHAUSWhat would you say if some Arabs buy that NASDAQ billboard on Broadway to teach Anti-Americanism?
Capitalism would prevent it.
April 25, 2007 - 13:51 ET by RJCapitalism would prevent it.
Good answer. :) How about
April 25, 2007 - 14:02 ET by BAUHAUSGood answer. :)
How about that company from Dubai with plans to buy major US harbors?
There was enough money and no one else wanted to buy them.
I can image now you saying. "But then whole Corporate America would buy the billboard".
So I reformulate my question. How about Anti-Americanism on a billboard near you. Remeber you can't buy them all.
Same answer
April 25, 2007 - 14:14 ET by RJSame answer, but you apparently misunderstood it the first time, as you misunderstand the concept of capitalism and the free market.
I didn't mean that corporations would buy the billboard. I meant that financial self preservation would prevent an intelligent business owner from accepting such a message.
As for Dubai, the liberals successfully blocked that deal.
Same answer, but you apparent
April 25, 2007 - 14:26 ET by BAUHAUSSame answer, but you apparently misunderstood it the first time, as you misunderstand the concept of capitalism and the free market.
Don't even dare to question my understanding of capitalismn I'm the student business counsultant not you.
I didn't mean that corporations would buy the billboard. I meant that financial self preservation would prevent an intelligent business owner from accepting such a message.
You got me wrong. Your aware that NASDAQ's billboard displays stocks not message. I meant that Arabs buy the whole billboard, including the infrastructur, the technology, the whole thing. Not just the advertising slot.
As for Dubai, the liberals successfully blocked that deal.
The freest economy in the world.
I knew you were a bit silly
April 25, 2007 - 14:34 ET by The Wicked ConservativeI knew you were a bit silly! Now I get why. Student business consultant....HA! Todays rash of "consultants" in our culture is the greatest living example of the old addage "those who can't do, teach" The very term student business consultant should be an oxymoron. Who the heck are you to offer your opinion to someone if you aren't able to succeed on your own first. But hey, who knows maybe you can offer your opinion to your arab friends on how to take over the Nasdaq.
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to a
liberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
Your aware the idea of studen
April 25, 2007 - 14:38 ET by BAUHAUSYour aware the idea of student business consultants is from the US and the biggest companies in management consulting are from the US too.
Who the heck are you to offer your opinion to someone if you aren't able to succeed on your own first.
Demand and supply. Think about it. At least my opinion is worth enough for some people to pay for it.
Demand and supply. Think
April 25, 2007 - 14:44 ET by The Wicked ConservativeDemand and supply. Think about it. At least my opinion is worth enough for some people to pay for it. You know...you've got me there. The whole cosultant thing can only last as long as there are people willing to pay for it. Cash in while you can. I spent several years working for a Fortune 500 and they would cyclically bring in consultants and pay them millions of dollars to hear what casual observation could tell you. Capitalism isn't without it's ugly portions.
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to a
liberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
I just say I agree. No compan
April 25, 2007 - 14:56 ET by BAUHAUSI just say I agree. No company would need consultants if they could handle lay-offs, market analysis and strategic investments by themselves.
That's foolish arrogance, Bauhaus
April 25, 2007 - 14:41 ET by RJ"Don't dare question me?" hahaha! Now, that's foolish arrogance. You see capitalism through a socialist's eyes and you don't even know how much you don't know.
You're changing your story about the billboard. Earlier you said "remember you can't buy them all." However, the same principles of capitalism would apply. Arabian businessmen would not waste their investment money purchasing the NASDAQ billboard in order to promote anti-Americanism.
As for "the freest economy in the world", you again show your ignorance of America. The Dubai decision wasn't economic or capitalistic, but political.
"Don't dare question me?"
April 25, 2007 - 14:53 ET by BAUHAUS"Don't dare question me?" hahaha! Now, that's foolish arrogance. You see capitalism through a socialist's eyes and you don't even know how much you don't know.
I don't understand what's your problem with me. Have we ever meet? Have we talked about our political beliefs? Do you know me?
I don't get it. Why in the world do you think I'm a socialist? Is it because I'm from Europe. Follow only Amercians the true path of capitalismn?
Arabian businessmen would not waste their investment money purchasing the NASDAQ billboard in order to promote anti-Americanism.
My example wasn't about investing. Or wait. Iran is investing in Hizbullah. So promoting Anit-Americanism is a valid investment. But I don't think you will ever understand the core concept of my example.
Is there anyting in the whole wide world that could offend you? Offed you so much you want to ban it.
As for "the freest economy in the world", you again show your ignorance of America. The Dubai decision wasn't economic or capitalistic, but political.
Restriction is restriction. No matter which reason.
It's a concept that seems beyond you Bauhaus
April 25, 2007 - 15:06 ET by RJI have no problem with you, but it was YOU, after all, who said "don't dare question me." As for socialism, it's not as if this is your first time on this board, Bauhaus. Additionally, Europe IS socialistic and your questions and responses today tend to confirm that.
An example of that is your complete inability to grasp my point about capitalism and the billboards.
Your Dubai comment shows more ignorance of America. No system exists without politics. And even though I dislike the outcome, since there was a supposed security angle involved, what happened there is not inconsistent with the ideals of our capitalistic system.
I have no problem with you, b
April 25, 2007 - 15:16 ET by BAUHAUSI have no problem with you, but it was YOU, after all, who said "don't dare question me." As for socialism, it's not as if this is your first time on this board, Bauhaus. Additionally, Europe IS socialistic and your questions and responses today tend to confirm that.
And I stand by my statement. I'm not a socialist. Are we talking about the same Europe? What is exactly socialistic in Europe. Give me an example, what makes Europe socialist's state.
An example of that is your complete inability to grasp my point about capitalism and the billboards.
Or inability to understand that it wasn't about capitalismn.
I'm finished with you Bauhaus
April 25, 2007 - 15:39 ET by RJ"What is socialistic in Europe?"
Well, there's a conversation ender. That statement is completely devoid of intellectual merit, and a response would be pointless. If you're serious, you have no objectivity and there's nothing anyone could offer that would convince you otherwise. If you're being factetious, I'm not interested in going along with your foolishness.
This conversation is over.
RJ,A better question would ha
April 25, 2007 - 18:07 ET by BlondeRJ,
A better question would have been "What (rather which) county in Europe isn't socialistic?".
These oh-so-smart and above-it-all europeans, who deign to weigh in on capitalism, are sooooooo funny.
Like I said to Mobi the other night....."As If".
Sounds like you have no argum
April 26, 2007 - 10:27 ET by BAUHAUSSounds like you have no arguments to prove that Europe is socialistic to me. I'm not surprised at all.
This conversation is over.
Sure. If YOU ran out of arguments the conversation is over.
It proves only one thing. You are a overweening American filled to the bursting point with prejudices.
Or how people like you say it. You're full of shit.
Your arguments have been shallow and easily defeated
April 26, 2007 - 11:53 ET by RJYour lack of knowledge about America should embarrass you. But, because you (claim to be) a typical elitist European, it's understandable that you aren't able to be embarrassed. However, to deny that Europe has become socialist clearly marks you as either an arrogant fool or playing a facetious game.
Because your arguments have been shallow and easily defeated, you've only barely held my interest. Now, you attempt to lower the intellectual level even further. I'm not interested in debating with an individual who is either an arrogant fool or playing a facetious game.
Your lack of knowledge about
April 26, 2007 - 12:25 ET by BAUHAUSYour lack of knowledge about Europe should embarrass you, but because you are a typical unemployed, drunken American idiot, it's understandable that it doesn't. But to claim that Europe has become socialist marks you as either a fool or playing a facetious game.
Because your arguments have been shallow and easily defeated, you've only barely held my interest. Now, you attempt to lower the intellectual level even further. I'm just not interested in debating with an individual who is either a fool or playing a facetious game.
Bauhaus, you obviously unders
April 26, 2007 - 12:34 ET by RJBauhaus, you understand that you have lost the debate and you have reverted to the insults and language of a 12 year old.
If I have lost why did you st
April 26, 2007 - 12:42 ET by BAUHAUSIf I have lost why did you stop and refuse to continue. Stop explaining away like a little girl.
Childish.
April 26, 2007 - 12:45 ET by RJChildish.
More mature than you. At leas
April 26, 2007 - 13:02 ET by BAUHAUSMore mature than you. At least I'm not running away form a discussion.
Still childish
April 26, 2007 - 13:09 ET by RJStill childish
RJ -- you are, of course, cor
April 26, 2007 - 12:52 ET by Jack BauerRJ -- you are, of course, correct.
Even a supposedly "conservative" party like that in the U.K. is so wedded to the welfare state mentality, socialized medicine and high taxation they are a disgrace to any true conservative principles.
The fact that the sour kraut cannot even comprehend that shows exactly how far left the "EU" (sic) has drifted.
Great your back World Greates
April 26, 2007 - 12:56 ET by BAUHAUSGreat your back World Greatest American Of The World. I missed your competent comments.
As usual you are 100% wrong.S
April 26, 2007 - 12:57 ET by Jack BauerAs usual you are 100% wrong about me.
Though I have to admit you are correct about my competency.
And you don't understand iron
April 26, 2007 - 13:00 ET by BAUHAUSAnd you don't understand irony.
Congrats on your title - its
April 26, 2007 - 13:05 ET by florida_chadCongrats on your title - its well deserved.
Thanks chad -- it is flatteri
April 26, 2007 - 13:07 ET by Jack BauerThanks chad -- it is flattering, though wholly undeserved!
Does that qualify me for a Green card?
Oh yeah, Jack,Green Card all
April 26, 2007 - 18:23 ET by BlondeOh yeah, Jack,
Green Card all the way.....you're an honorary citizen already!
Answer me a question, if you'd be so kind....are the continental euros all as stupid as the latest batch here?
Unfortunately jah. The defa
April 26, 2007 - 18:40 ET by Jack BauerUnfortunately jah. The default position for the Eurotrash is an addicted reliance on the state to offer womb to tomb social security, and that covers ALL political parties, including those which used to be conservative.
They have an arrogance about the US you have to hear to believe, which is odd because they have virtually no knowledge of how the greatest country in the history of the planet works politically and socially.
Their delusions of grandeur are comical and pathetic, and much of it is fueled by an obsessive envy of America. And these are the people the US elites (in the media, the Democrats, et al) want please.
Thanks, Jack.I thought that w
April 26, 2007 - 18:49 ET by BlondeThanks, Jack.
I thought that was the case, but it's been quite a while since I've been to Europe (and it will be a very, very long time before I go back).
The, um, quality of the euros we've seen here (present company excluded of course) is truly staggering in the naive, childlike, stubborn, slogan spewing stupidity.
....you are correct about my
April 26, 2007 - 14:56 ET by bigtimer....you are correct about my competency.
Laugh out loud funny Jack!
Strike one! (Could be more, haven't read the whole thread...hehehee)
Can't help not commenting, that caught me just right...and it is sooooo like you!
BT -- I think it's our german
April 26, 2007 - 18:23 ET by Jack BauerBT -- I think it's our germanic komrad who is somewhat lacking in the irony stakes.
BAU...you obviously have neve
April 26, 2007 - 12:10 ET by bassndudeBAU...you obviously have never been to Europe, or you dont know what a socialist is. Either way, your arguments are ignorant and full of misinformation. You should try to educate yourself to what socialism is. I have lived in Europe, some years back, and even then it was socolist. The health care system sucks. You may wait a week to see a Dr. and be seriously ill in the mean time. No worries tho, cause the goverment sees to it you have a place to die while you wait to see the Dr. It is not uncommon for three or four generations to live in one home. The privliged have the nicer homes in the country. Engineers, meterologists and other professionals are afforded exclusive homes in select villiages. Like seperation of professional and labor types. You know, like Moscow did during the USSR hey days. If that is not socialism, you tell me what is.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
When have you been last time
April 26, 2007 - 12:19 ET by BAUHAUSWhen have you been last time to Europe. In 1910? I really have doubts that you have ever been to Europe. Seriously.
By the way I'm German. Is was born here and I live here. Can you undestand that?
BaU...funny you should mentio
April 26, 2007 - 14:29 ET by bassndudeBaU...funny you should mention Germany. I lived there from 1976 to1979. And it was as I said. Watched a little boy, Christian was his name, sick for a week waiting to see a Dr. there. I know what it was like then. Cant figure it has gotten any better sence. Seeing as how you were born there, but live here. That kinda speaks for its self dont it? Can you understand that?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, I'm sure you noticed th
April 26, 2007 - 14:45 ET by RJBass, I'm sure you noticed that he could not dispute your earlier descriptions and was forced to give a lame generalized response instead. He's been given many specific examples for both America and Germany, but he ignores them and blindly flails around with non-sequiturs.
RJ, yes I noticed. He cannot
April 26, 2007 - 14:51 ET by bassndudeRJ, yes I noticed. He cannot refute what I said. Its true. If, and I do say IF, he was born in Germany, his mother married a GI while he was a baby, and they moved over here, and he was raised up NE somewhere, or maybe SF or LA. Maybe Seattle. He really has no idea what Europe is like. Doubt he has ever been there, as an adult, for any length of time at all.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Interesting. What makes you b
April 27, 2007 - 03:39 ET by BAUHAUSInteresting. What makes you believe I'm not living in Germany?
Try 50% of the GDP of France
April 25, 2007 - 22:22 ET by UnsaneTry 50% of the GDP of France going to the government. They vote in Segolene Royal, they are doomed.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
I didn't know that Europe con
April 26, 2007 - 10:28 ET by BAUHAUSI didn't know that Europe consists only of France.
The French think so. "
April 26, 2007 - 10:45 ET by MightyMouthThe French think so.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Says who?
April 26, 2007 - 11:27 ET by BAUHAUSSays who?
I do. "There are two
April 26, 2007 - 11:32 ET by MightyMouthI do.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
And your opinion is based on
April 26, 2007 - 12:04 ET by BAUHAUSAnd your opinion is based on ...?
Four years of dealing with
April 26, 2007 - 12:35 ET by MightyMouthFour years of dealing with French businessmen. The French are slightly more arrogant than Americans. And don't get me started on Mexican businessmen.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
umm... the French?
April 26, 2007 - 12:47 ET by PeskyDaneThe French. They whined and
April 26, 2007 - 19:44 ET by UnsaneThe French. They whined and cried until Trichet could be placed as head of the ECB to start out, instead of a Dutchman as initially planned for. Also they are not happy that now 90% of EU documents are in English, instead of in French as before Britain was admitted in 1973.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
1. Trichet is completely in i
April 27, 2007 - 03:42 ET by BAUHAUS1. Trichet is completely in independent.
2. All EU documents are in the there offical working languages (English, French and German).
I didn't know that France was
April 26, 2007 - 19:47 ET by UnsaneI didn't know that France wasn't European!
You DID ask for an example of socialism in Europe, and I gave you one. Deal with it.
(How about free health care for all Germans, except those evil greedy German bastards who make more than 47,000 euros a year?)
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
There is only free health car
April 27, 2007 - 03:46 ET by BAUHAUSThere is only free health care for the poors. Everyone else pays health care dues and the rich pay higher dues to get above the average health care. Average doesn't mean bad, we have high standards.
RJ how could you
April 25, 2007 - 14:42 ET by florida_chadDon't even dare to question my understanding of capitalismn I'm the student business counsultant not you.
hahahahahha
What's your job. Say somethin
April 25, 2007 - 14:58 ET by BAUHAUSWhat's your job. Say something about your economical background.
I don't see a problem with th
April 25, 2007 - 14:22 ET by florida_chadI don't see a problem with the billboard you propose. I see stuff on billboard that bother me all the time.
You fight free speech with mo
April 25, 2007 - 14:16 ET by florida_chadYou fight free speech with more free speech. Not by censorship.
So you just tolerate whatever
April 25, 2007 - 14:29 ET by BAUHAUSSo you just tolerate whatever it is?
You can't ban everything you
April 25, 2007 - 14:33 ET by SouthJersey1953You can't ban everything you don't like. We have something called free speech, remember?
"You can lead a man to Congress, but you can't make him think." - Milton Berle
And racial remarks? Are those
April 25, 2007 - 14:40 ET by BAUHAUSAnd racial remarks? Are those also free speech.
How is it handled in Germany, Bauhaus?
April 25, 2007 - 14:54 ET by RJFor the most part, social pressure takes care of it...except for the socialistic concept of "hate speech." How is it handled in Germany?
Depends on how grave it was.
April 25, 2007 - 15:01 ET by BAUHAUSDepends on how grave it was. Usually it's media pressure (aka public pressure). But in worse cases like denying the shoa it's a law case.
YES - sometimes free speech h
April 25, 2007 - 15:04 ET by florida_chadYES - sometimes free speech hurts - no doubt about it.
@BAUHAUSAnd racial remarks? A
April 25, 2007 - 15:55 ET by Lynn Davidson@BAUHAUS
And racial remarks? Are those also free speech.
That is very much the crux of this post. When the government declares that "hate speech is not free speech" and "intolerant" speech will be restricted or banned, then the government essentially controls society at a level beyond pure governing and policy. "Hate speech" is so vague that it can mean anything, and slowly, freedom is taken away.
You only have to look to England for examples. As I wrote, a school considers staring, Islamohobia--hate speech. By not being able to confront, ridicule and berate people, religions or kinds of people, our ability to fully interact with them and embrace issues. Look at Nick Ginsburg, and atheist who denounced Christianity on YouTube with no controversy, but when he did the same to Islam, the video was yanked and he was banned; now add the force of a government to that.
How can we have free discussion when certain topics are off limits? Without free speech, how do you confront Holocaust deniers if you can't even talk about the topic. It isn't as if the banned ideas go away, if banning speech worked, there would be no neo-Nazi movement in Germany and no one would deny the Holocaust.
Then there is the inequality in the way that governments regulate speech...
You understand that with this
April 26, 2007 - 12:03 ET by BAUHAUSYou understand that with this law denouncing Christianity is also forbidden.
I understand your point about free speech to confront deniers, but the neo-Nazi movement is mainly fueled my unemployment and bad integrated emmigrants and less by the ideas like the shoa wouldn't have happend. Neo-Nazi's aren't know for their intelligence, I have doubts that they understand what they are saying.
Yes
April 25, 2007 - 18:39 ET by Mr. BishopYes -- racial remarks ARE free speech. I have had this conversation many times before. Racial remarks, insults... they're just words. Who cares what someone says? If you care, then you're simply insecure. If someone is using a word that you find offensive, get over it. If they are using words that society seems to deem as "offensive" or any sort of racial slur, that says something about the person saying it, but it says more about the person who takes offense to it.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Quite so, Mr. Bishop.Had some
April 25, 2007 - 18:48 ET by BlondeQuite so, Mr. Bishop.
Had someone called me a "blonde headed ho"....I think I'd have laughed him (more than likely) out of the room.
As I'm sure you've taught your kids...."sticks and stones can break my bones", etc.
These hyper-sensitive libs and pc'ers drive me absolutely bonkers.
Seriously, if you get your feelings hurt over a bad name, what are you going to do when someone steals your car, or hurts someone you love?
Save your anger and outrage for something that matters!
Do you understand the concept
April 25, 2007 - 14:35 ET by florida_chadDo you understand the concept of free speech? Yes - I tolerate whatever it is or avoid it. ALL speech is free, otherwise none is. If I am bothered too much, I fight back with more free speech.
Yes. We combat people who abu
April 25, 2007 - 14:41 ET by Roger the ShrubberYes.
We combat people who abuse their freedom of speech rights the American way: hit them in the pocketbook.
We're pummeled with anti-amer
April 25, 2007 - 14:19 ET by The Wicked ConservativeWe're pummeled with anti-americanism everyday. The capitalist system is dealing with it. Just look at the ratings of the major network news programs and the drop in circulation of major lib rags like the NY Times and Time.
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to a
liberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
If you think that private pro
April 25, 2007 - 18:27 ET by NL207If you think that private property ownership in Germany is encouraged, then you obviously are ignorant of the most recent real estate laws in the Socialist Worker's Paradise. All private home ownership in the DR is now subject to a "lease" of 99 years, after which title to the property reverts to the Gemeinde. Land sold prior to the introduction of this law, [?1992?], is grandfathered, but the state still gets this after a while anyway through the social welfare machine. Any family that receives social assistance is in jeopardy of forfeiting their property upon the deaths of its owner of record at the time the assistance was rendered. Its really tough to find English translations of these laws, but this guide for notarys give some hints about this business. The role of a German Notary is very different than here in the US, more like a real estate attorney here rather than Rechtanswalt.
You think Germany has no crime or even low crime? You couldn't be more wrong. Crime rates in Germany are only little different that the US. See here. The German murder rate is about 3.1 per 100,000. The concurrent US rate was about 5.5 per 100,000. Less than a factor of two apart, and Germany effectively prohibits private firearm ownership outside of secured shooting clubs. How could this be? This same document reports 2,384,000 distinct criminal suspects arrested in the same year, 2004. US arrestees totalled [table 32 on page 284] about 8.5 Million for 2004. The US had 293M people and Germany about 80M at that time. Do the math for yourself. I get arrest rates that are near equal.
So you admit Germany bans books. political parties and symbols, eh? Then you have the cheek to insinuate without direct claim that it is only Nazi regalia, political sympathizers, and books that are banned. This is factually incorrect. While it is true the aforementioned items and assemblies are prohibited, the list of banned political parties includes others, some far removed from Naziism such as this fine organization, banned in 1956. The list of banned books includes some philosphies which are not "Nazi" but are considered too radical.
I hope you didn't mind having your empty rhetoric reduced to ashes. It was the least I could do for an ignoramus like you. I'd have called this a battle except you acted more like a Frenchman than any German.
Property Rights I have no cl
April 26, 2007 - 11:24 ET by BAUHAUSProperty Rights
I have no clue what your talking about. Can you give me the exact phrase of what your refering to.
I searched through the whole text and didn't even found your 99 years.
Gun Rights
So. What's you're point. Does Germany need more guns to have less murders?
Censorship
Are you complaining that a Communist party is banned? Are you a Commi yourself? Long story short in Germany everything is banned that is against the democratic state or human rights. Not matter if it's communistic, racial or violent Islam. I have no problem with banning such crap.
I'd have called this a battle except you acted more like a Frenchman than any German.
Why do you Americans hate France so much?
Switzerland doesn't have much
April 26, 2007 - 19:55 ET by UnsaneSwitzerland doesn't have much crime to speak of and its male populace MUST be armed as required by law.
Actually, last time I checked, the Communists of the SED reorganized themselves into the PDS, and then into the New Left party. So much for them being banned. As I recall they did quite well in the last election. Of course, parties of the far right in Germany are banned as well.
Here in the United States (I find it very hard to believe you live here) we like our bigots to out themselves via free speech. That is one reason we have it. Besides, freedom of speech does not mean having the freedom to be heard, as a wise man once explained. Therefore, I do have a problem with banning anything.
It is not we Americans that hate France. It is the French that hate America. As such, I look upon them with contempt for their ingratitude at all we have done for them. The French need to accept the fact that they are a third-rate world power, if that, and move on.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
The Notary's guide does not r
April 26, 2007 - 20:01 ET by NL207The Notary's guide does not refer to the term, 99 years. For that, you will have to consult a copy of BürgerlicheGesetzbuch, which I have never seen on line in either English or German. What you might have noticed was a prvision in that guide where the Notary is required to check all real propery transactions for forfeiture to the state before completing the sale contract. Most of these forfeitures presently involve debts to the Social Welfare organization but in the future, when the 99 year rule begins to apply, they will bcome numerous indeed.
I see you have tacitly conceded that overall crime in Germany is similar to the United States and that citizens and their property are no safer in their homes than in America in spite of the effective ban on firearms. i also see that you concede the gun control laws in Germany are in effect, a virtual ban, since the individual applying for a license to keep a firearm in their home must satisfy the government they have a valid reason to do so. This is like New York City here in the US, which effectively bans private ownership of handguns in this manner.
Now I see you are defending censorship as long as those who are censored disagree with your values. Once one group is censored, all are vulnerable. Human rights? Some people think it is a human right to take their neighbor's poperty by force if necesary as long as that neighbor has more than they. Democratic state? Just because a majority of those who voted, voted for the incumbent regime does not mean that regime is not a tyranny. The former East German People's Republic is a case in point. This thinking is no different than that of any other tyranny. Limited government is the only free government, and it is difficult to attain and harder to preserve, because of the tendency for power to corrupt.
The French? Those miserable boot lickers cannot be trusted to stand up for Western Civilization no matter what transpires as hey have clearly demostrated for the last 30 or more years. Moreover, if it were not for America, they would now be speaking German instead of French. They are completely useless in the ongoing struggle between the the Liberal tradition and the assortment of fascists, Islamic and otherwise who now threaten it. They can't even muster the backbone necessary to deprive Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the means to acquire nuclear weapons.
Here it is: http://www.gesetz
April 27, 2007 - 03:57 ET by BAUHAUSHere it is: http://www.gesetze-i... (BGB is short form for Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch.
Now I understand what you mean. Yes it's true. If you have debts and can't pay them back the state distrains property.
Human rights? Some people think it is a human right to take their neighbor's poperty by force if necesary as long as that neighbor has more than they. Democratic state? We have our version of human rights written into the constitution. Everything that is not valid will be banned. I stand to this.
French
You know that the French sent CARE package after Kathrina and your country refused them.
There are at least three cond
April 27, 2007 - 20:51 ET by NL207There are at least three conditions that lead to land seizures in Germany.
(1) You owe private debts and your creditors foreclose on your property. This can occur in the US as well, but only after some lengthy legal proceedings and most states' debt laws in addition to the National Bakruptcy laws usually prevent the siezure of the primary residence.
(2) You have had public debt forced upon you by the social welfare organization uch as child support payments or a member of your immediate family has received social services to which hey were entitled. This kind of thing is unheard of in America.
(3) You purchased property which the Gemeinde or Catholic Church owns and retains peremptory rights to despite "selling" it for deveopment. After some number of years, usually 99, the property will revert to the community or the church. Try looking under 'Gemeinderecht'. This practice is also unheard of in the US. The state is not allowed to own land for private purposes.
German Censorship: I will refer you to the former Constitutions of each of former Warsaw Pact countries. All of hem had their version of human rights written into their constitutions; all of them practiced repression and censorship; and all of them were totalitarian states. You can stand where you like, but you are still advocating tyranny no different than that carried out by Fascists, Communists, Nazis, or despots. Censorship and the prohibitoin of free assembly and free political thought is one of the hallmarks of these regimes. You live in a nation which bears this mark.
French CARE packages? C.A.R.E. packages were invented by the US. I know. As a boy I recall helping my mother pack them for delivery to .... Germany. Tell me Bauhaus, why would I be packing C.A.R.E. packages for Germany? As for the alleged French aid, Google this search. I don't see a single reference anywhere in the first 50 results to French CARE packages. This reference details what France delivered or proposed. I don't see ANYTHING from C.A.R.E. on that list. Conclusion: France delivered no C.A.R.E packages. You are factually incorrect.
Quite franklly, those people in New Orleans do not deserve any more help. Our own National goverment provided local aid there of over 100 Billion USD. The total estimated damages caused by Katrina in all affected US areas was only about $85B. That city [of French origins, I might add] is so corrupt that most of that aid was siphoned off by local crooks and politicians there. It is not really clear if there is any difference between the crooks and politicians in New Orleans anyway.
Now I will highlight another German injustice. The German State collects a 1% payroll tax from each citizen who designates themselves a member of a religion and delivers it to the designated religion .... that is, a STATE APPROVED religion. This means either the Roman Catholic or Lutheran churches. All others need not apply. The various other Christian denominations do not receive this priviledge nor are the Muslims allowed to participate. And these pretentious Germans pretend they are progressives!
Let's see? How is Bauhaus doing? He has been forced to concede:
Things aren't going so well, are they Bauhaus? And it isn't looking good for the unequal treatment of religion under the law either.
Before I spend much time to s
April 28, 2007 - 14:58 ET by BAUHAUSBefore I spend much time to show you that you're wrong.
Why does all that matter so much to you?
Speaking of censorship and repression of thought
April 25, 2007 - 13:38 ET by RJSpeaking of censorship and repression of thought, NL207, don't forget that Germany does not allow home schooling.
speaking of censorship and re
April 25, 2007 - 13:45 ET by BAUHAUSspeaking of censorship and repression of thought, NL207, don't forget that Germany does not allow home schooling.
I always wondered about this home schooling. Why is that so important for you?
home schooling
April 25, 2007 - 13:48 ET by RJIt offers an excellent alternative for those who aren't satisfied with the state controlled centers of education.
Because the education receive
April 25, 2007 - 13:49 ET by florida_chadBecause the education received is better than that of the public school system. And it is free of the politics of public education.
I understand your point. But
April 25, 2007 - 13:53 ET by BAUHAUSI understand your point. But what do you write in your CV to apply for a job or university. I mean how about grades.
Universities love home school
April 25, 2007 - 14:02 ET by RJUniversities love home schooled students. They perform above average.
I'll ask that the two student
April 25, 2007 - 14:10 ET by BAUHAUSI'll ask that the two students from the US in my semester.
Are there no numerus clausus (a certain grade average to have to be allowed to study) in the US?
Isn't that a rather vague assumption that all home schooled students perform above average.
It's not an assumption. Stu
April 25, 2007 - 14:20 ET by RJIt's not an assumption. Studies have shown it.
Perhaps it would help your understanding if I also mention that this is not a mom and pop operation. The cirriculum of home schooled students must be approved by state education agencies. Advanced courses are taken with certified educators. The students are tested throughout their education to make sure they are keeping up with state standards. Thus, there is a record for universities to look at.
Home schoolers can take stand
April 25, 2007 - 14:13 ET by florida_chadHome schoolers can take standardized tests and also take the entrance exames for college. I know several homeschoolers parent and their children did not have problems getting into a college.
Okay. I didn't know that. Tha
April 25, 2007 - 14:35 ET by BAUHAUSOkay. I didn't know that. That makes more sense to me.
But what about the social aspect. In German schools you stay for 9/10/13 years with the same people in the same class. Your classmates are your friends, there's not such thing as rotation as in the US.
BAUHAUS,Before you try to thr
April 25, 2007 - 18:13 ET by BlondeBAUHAUS,
Before you try to throw your euro-superiority around here....
We don't fast-track (nor slow-track) our children for university before they're old enough to go through puberty. So our children are not picked for a profession while still children, or told while they're young and impressionable that they're too stupid to be put on a college track. Sounds to me like your system of education is a bit of an, um, holdover from a certain regime to me....picking and choosing who shall succeed.
Our friends in school are our friends in school. What on earth are you blathering on about in regard to "rotation"?
He would be quite horrified t
April 25, 2007 - 22:36 ET by UnsaneHe would be quite horrified to know what the OECD thinks of the German school system...
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
So what? I never went to sc
April 25, 2007 - 22:35 ET by UnsaneSo what? I never went to school to socialize and be buddy-buddy with everyone. (That is one reason why high school sucked for me here.)
In fact, I would dare say that though I hardly know anyone from any of my grade school days anymore - and certainly no one past eighth grade - that "rotation" you speak of was in fact quite beneficial to me. For instance, when my father was sent to Germany to defend the whiny European ingrates from the Soviets, I went with him, as did the rest of the family. I learned more there in the time I lived there than I would in any normal U.S. setting. And yes, I attended an American school there. In fact, before all was said and done, I moved numerous times and saw quite a few schools before moving on to college.
Your post also indicates a failure on your part to understand a fundamental aspect of American life. We move around; relatively few of us remain in the same city or state for long periods of time. We move around for various reasons, like job opportunities and promotions. Americans by and large have no problem with this; it has been in our nature since the lands beyond Appalachia awiated settlement and many fathers told their sons to "go west, young man".
It always amazes me how Europeans are so shocked and horrified at various aspects of American culture and our way of life, without bothering to examine a single aspect of our history or how we live.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Uns,You're surprised by the e
April 25, 2007 - 22:48 ET by BlondeUns,
You're surprised by the eurotrash view of us?
Hardly.
They select their children for "tracks" when the kids are about ten years old....Gymnasium, or auto mechanics.
Stupid euros.
More on the silly, whiny European ingrates
April 25, 2007 - 22:57 ET by UnsaneBlonde - I was speaking to a German woman (blonde, no less!) in a wonderful restaurant in Kyoto about all things European and American. I had to explain some things to her about the United States in such detail where I understood quite quickly that she, nor most Europeans, really understood why and how the United States does what it does and why it citizens think the way they do.
For instance, she was whining about Iran and what we were going to do about them, and why we weren't more diplomatic like the Europeans. I asked if the German embassy in Tehran was ever stormed with its staff held hostage. I think she got the point, even if she didn't like the terse way I pointed it out.
I am merely pointing out to our European friends that instead of whining or lecturing us, they really ought to shut the hell up and examine the United States and its people a bit more closely.
All of this reminds me of a great letter to the editor I read many years ago in The Economist. An article there quoted some Frenchie who opined that the Americans badly wanted to go to war with Iraq because we didn't understand what war was, since we never "had a Verdun in the United States." A Virginian wrote the mag and said, "I wish I could take him on a tour of where I live. In a fifty mile radius from my home, some of the bloodiest battles of the Civil War were fought."
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Uns,Leave the euros to rot in
April 25, 2007 - 23:07 ET by BlondeUns,
Leave the euros to rot in their own idiotic worldview of themselves.
I could hardly care, at this point.
They are so totally insular (not to mention beyond stupid).
Do they not understand that we will never bail them out again? Particularly the frogs, whom the islamofascists are rapidly taking over, in la belle France?
Oh well.
Sego v. Sarko: more on the whiny Euros
April 25, 2007 - 23:21 ET by UnsaneI know, it is fun watching their system fail without them even knowing it.
I am really looking forward to watching the French screw themselves in 2 weeks time.
If they vote in Nicholas Sarkozy, anytime he proposes a reform that MIGHT help the French get out of double-digit unemployment for the first time in a quarter-century, those whiny children will take to the streets and riot at the first opportunity.
If they vote in Segolene Royal, I will watch gleefully as that Socialist drives France into the pavement, and digs a nice deep hole for them. (And vomit everytime the U.S. media gushes over her, which they will, mark my words!!!)
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
You know...
April 25, 2007 - 23:45 ET by Mr. BishopTo be honest Unsane, Europeans are more then simply ignorant of their own failings and their own problems. They are, in ever sense of the word, superiorists -- especially the French. Have you ever noticed, that Europeans always think they know more about what everyone should do, and they could do it better, yet they neglect to examine their own history, as well as current situation when making those statements? The French always want to complain about the US going to war in Iraq, completely neglecting that they were decimated in World War II when they refused to fight back against an enemy that threatened them. Sure, that is the most commonly referrred to example of this, but there is so much more, and it's actually somewhat disappointing to see the country that helped us to gain our independence is far too busy indulging in lazy greed, to care what happens to their own people. Sad...
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
To clarify
April 26, 2007 - 00:01 ET by UnsaneYou get no argument from me there. Note that the French consider themselves to have bravely resisted the Nazi occupation, and that they routinely paper over that chapter of their history with "we ALL resisted bravely". Of course, we know the truth: that there were plenty of eager French collaborators, and that those who were resisting were in truth too busy fighting themselves to effectively resist the German occupation (especially those resistance fighters that were Communist).
I think it is both the European failure to examine their own failings (they were on top of the world stage 100 years ago and they coughed it all up over the span of less than a century) and their absolute refusal to make sense of what makes America tick.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Don't forget the Marshall Plan
April 26, 2007 - 00:02 ET by Carl KolchakIn regards to the French and WWII, keep in mind France and Great Britain declared war on the Nazis first, once the Nazis invaded Poland. This is what's referred to as the "Phony War", because neither side was really fighting against each other. The Nazis then decided they would invade France, and made the Maginot Line look like a joke. One of the biggest blunders of WWII was Hitler allowing the Luftwaffe to try to destroy the remaining British and French forces at Dunkirk. It was extreme heroism by the British RAF as well as people using whatever would float to rescue stranded soldiers. The French then also collaborated with the Nazis once they were defeated. The French government rounded up French Jews and had them sent to concentration camps. The French also had about 10,000+ soldiers that fought on the Eastern Front, and for awhile had forces fighting against the Allies in North Africa, but those forces soon switched to the Allies. The French also sent many civilians to go work in Germany as well. For every 2 or 3 civilians that would go to work, the Nazis would return one French prisoner of war. For anyone interested in what was happeing in France during WWII, checkout a movie called "Eye of Vichy".
Now as far as the Marshall Plan goes, I believe Finland is the only European country to repay the loan. So far all the rest of the European countries who don't like us, please feel free to repay the money owed to the United States from the Marshall Plan.
"I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane" Waylon Jennings
Finland is indeed the only na
April 26, 2007 - 00:13 ET by UnsaneFinland is indeed the only nation to repay all of its debts to the United States incurred in WWII.
Kautta erämaajärven
matkaa kulkuri yksinäinen
Näkee lammella joutsenparven
vapauttaan itkevän
Kaipuu menneisyyteen
kiirii ilmassa huutoina kotkien
Ikijärveltä turvatulta
käy matka vuorten taa
- Nightwish, "Lappi" (Part I: Erämaajärvi), from Angels Fall First (1997)
Florida_chad,I agree that hom
April 25, 2007 - 14:42 ET by LeonFlorida_chad,
I agree that homeschooling can be an effective method of education, however, I feel that it can be an incomplete approach in the sense that children miss out on the social interaction that they can engage in in school.
Developmental psychological studies have found repeatedly that social interaction is as important as education in the child's overall quest towards normative development. The lessons we learn in the classroom are often as important as the lessons we learn on the playground.
School teaches important lessons, such as problem solving, learning strategies, knowledge acquisition, but it doesn't teach things such as empathy, theory of mind, ability to understand and interact with others, social orientation, etc.
How does homeschooling address social development? It's great to be well-educated, but if you're not well-adjusted it's not going to be very useful.
My kids are in private school
April 25, 2007 - 14:54 ET by florida_chadMy kids are in private school. So don't think I am giving you an insiders view. But todays home schoolers have lots of chances to interact with kids their age. Certainly it is harder, but many facilities here cater to the home school crowd with field trips, recess sessions, sports teams, etc.
That's a very narrow minded
April 25, 2007 - 14:56 ET by The Wicked ConservativeThat's a very narrow minded view of home schooling. Do you honestly believe I lock my children away? They have friends from our church, social groups, and my friends that have children. We're going to homeschool to avoid the social problems in the schools. The politics of the school system disgust me now. The distractions are overwhelming for a child. The actual amount of time spent learning at public schools is shameful. You can homeschool your child in half the time twice as effectively. No doubt there are loons out there that home school and there are even worse loons that attend public schools. Often they are referred to as "teachers" but they are really the ones that try to indoctrinate. I consider it my job to protect my children from their poison.
do a little reading here Home School Legal Defense Association
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Talk sense to a
liberal and he calls you a racist, sexist, biggot, homophobe, denier.
I wasn't attacking homeschool
April 25, 2007 - 15:03 ET by LeonI wasn't attacking homeschooling, I was simply asking a question that I hear come up often. It seems to me that you have understand that homeschooling must be coupled with social activities.
To play devil's advocates, people might argue that the less social interaction time, the less the developmental possibilities. Thus, 8 hours a day in a social environment vs. 2 hours a day can make a huge difference. Furthermore, there might be a social advantage that comes from being away from your parents, out of the house. Gain a higher sense of independence.
I'm sure most parents of home-schooled children make an effort to involve their children with other people outside of the home. But I think if they don't do this (and i do believe there are probably a sizable number of homeschooled children that spend an exorbitant amount of time with their parents and siblings) then the damages can be large and pervasive.
Basically the golden rule applies. Moderation in all things. If you can successfully balance homeschooling and an adequate level of social interaction, than I'm sure children will turn out fine.
In no way did I mean to imply that it is impossible to get social interaction in a homeschooling environment.
Ever heard of such organizati
April 25, 2007 - 22:40 ET by UnsaneEver heard of such organizations as the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, Little League Baseball, etc? Sounds to me like their are a myriad of ways to accomplish social interaction outside the realm of the public prison, er, school.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
I agree. Where else but in t
April 25, 2007 - 14:57 ET by Roger the ShrubberI agree. Where else but in the public school system can a child be spared the unwelcome traits of accountability, the ability to overcome adversity, and humility/modesty?
God bless the public school system! Pink eye for everyone!
how exactly does public schoo
April 25, 2007 - 15:04 ET by Leonhow exactly does public school system not teach these traits?
You only learn to overcome adversity in a homeschooling environment? It seems to me the public school system is a prime way to learn about adversity and accountability.
Could you expand on your post at all?
Everybody gets a ribbon! Ther
April 25, 2007 - 17:44 ET by Roger the ShrubberEverybody gets a ribbon! There are no winners and losers! Nobody gets an "F", and teachers, you cannot mark your students' tests with red! Red is such an angry color!
Let's ban tag! No Dodgeball! No touch football!
We're raising a generation of sissies, who cannot make it in the real world (unless mom and dad help, of course). Ill-equipped to handle life.
Sorry, Hater. You be Generation Wuss.
where is the shrub report???
April 25, 2007 - 17:50 ET by misterbillwhere is the shrub report??? I have become dependent on it. I am starting to shake in withdrawal!
Haha thx, man.Been real busy
April 25, 2007 - 17:54 ET by Roger the ShrubberHaha thx, man.
Been real busy working. Big project. Many extra dollars to be made. Had to put the Shrub Project on the back burner for the time being. It will be back. Soon, I hope!
Well all righteeee then----
April 25, 2007 - 18:00 ET by misterbillWell all righteeee then----just send me some of the extra money and I will allow myself to be deprived.
(Or is that depraved??)
Your choice, MB!Or both!
April 25, 2007 - 18:01 ET by Roger the ShrubberYour choice, MB!
Or both!
I second that emotion, mister
April 25, 2007 - 17:58 ET by BlondeI second that emotion, misterbill.
Rog....come on guy!
We need the Shrub report, even if it's an abbreviated version.
Because competition means hav
April 25, 2007 - 22:27 ET by UnsaneBecause competition means having more choices. If people want to home school, they should be free to do so. (Public schools in the United States are a disaster and should be forced to earn their pay like everyone else.)
Besides, Germany doesn't look so hot in the educational realm. At least, the OECD rankings aren't flattering to Deutschland.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
This will happen to us if the
April 25, 2007 - 10:41 ET by ZoneDaiatlasThis will happen to us if the Democrats win in 2008....
Zone,Given that the rep
April 25, 2007 - 10:53 ET by Dave RZone,
Given that the republican suits are every bit as empty as the democrat suits, I really don't think it matters which party is in charge.
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.-
Neal Boortz.
Big brother takes another step closer
April 25, 2007 - 12:44 ET by c5thenPrediction: Saying anything derogatory or even espousing violence against a Christian or Christianity will be exempted.
Just wait and see what the NAU will do!
April 25, 2007 - 17:54 ET by misterbillJust wait and see what the NAU will do!