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Debra vs. Tumbler in: The Holy War to End All Holy Wars! 
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Lets get started with the Holy War.
April 17, 2007 - 17:09 ET by Dave ROkay, I'll start.
So, which one of you is going to Heaven and which one of you isn't?
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
*Raising hand*Ooh, ooh...Ca
April 17, 2007 - 17:10 ET by MightyMouth*Raising hand*
Ooh, ooh...Can I choose?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The question is:
April 23, 2007 - 01:18 ET by SportPoliticsNo, the deal is they both go to Heaven, and they're both fighting for the seat closest to the right hand.
Tumbler gets to decide which of us go to Heaven, and which don't, in between telling us only He can make that call, but he'll definitely pray for all of us, a lot, in hopes that the flames actually pass. (pun intended ? )
Now for my part.
I'd just like to point out that I'm the most conservative conservative, that I'm an actual conservative, and no other more conservative goeth here before me.
I know many will argue and fuss, claiming they are in fact really super conservative, more conservative than those who play conservatives on tv, and very fed up with the unconservative conservatives that have been elected, but rest assured, there is only one, and no other truer conservative shall go before you.
Oh Dave this is too fun, what
April 17, 2007 - 17:13 ET by bigtimerOh Dave this is too fun, what a grand idea!
Where the heck are they?
This will be like watching a movie at a drive-in picture show from our own cozy spaces...lol.
Pass the pop-corn and Good-n'-Plenty's!
Don't know. I PM'd 'em both.A
April 17, 2007 - 17:16 ET by Dave RDon't know. I PM'd 'em both.
Anyway, I'll see you guys. I have to go make dinner now.
Dave.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Peeka-boo...... hehe.... :o)
April 17, 2007 - 20:32 ET byPeeka-boo...... hehe.... :o)
I will let Mr. tumbler begin.
April 17, 2007 - 20:33 ET byI will let Mr. tumbler begin...unless someone else would like to.
:o)
...I'll be tumbler for now...
April 17, 2007 - 20:43 ET by TruthMonger...I'll be tumbler for now...
IF YOU ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC YOU WILL BURN IN HELL...end of story...
What say you Debra?
Don't for get to add: "
April 17, 2007 - 20:45 ET by MightyMouthDon't for get to add: "You racist pig!" or something along those lines.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
eek
April 17, 2007 - 20:49 ET byeek
What do you base that on, Tru
April 17, 2007 - 20:49 ET byWhat do you base that on, TruthMonger?
Well I'm not Roman Catholic s
April 17, 2007 - 20:51 ET by TruthMongerWell I'm not Roman Catholic so I base it on tumblers adamant posts...
I'm a nutty evangelical BTW...
you racist pig...
April 17, 2007 - 20:51 ET by TruthMongeryou racist pig...
e·van·gel·i·cal –adj
April 17, 2007 - 20:54 ET bye·van·gel·i·cal
–adjective 1.Also, e·van·gel·ic. pertaining to or in keeping with the gospel and its teachings. 2.belonging to or designating the Christian churches that emphasize the teachings and authority of the Scriptures, that stress as paramount the tenet that salvation is achieved by personal conversion to faith in the atonement of Christ.
...yes, in other words NOT RO
April 17, 2007 - 21:01 ET by TruthMonger...yes, in other words NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC...lol...
Just kidding...........maybe...
:o)
April 17, 2007 - 20:55 ET by:o)
my dear debra
April 17, 2007 - 22:19 ET by tumbler_2007Here we are, though I was unwilling to submit myself to the whims of Dave R and Blonde of the Peroxide Persuasion. I really thought our debate was settled. I still do.
There's no need to give you daily catechism. You renounce the Catholic Church like any other soul with free will. I'm loyal to Her by free will. Could it be you might reconsider? You are proud of yourself. For myself, I'm not here pursuing any personal ends. I already have the Divine Truth. (There are faithful Catholic schoolchildren who already have it, without ever having studied scripture.)
Before you object that the Church cannot save us, only Jesus saves us; let me say that HE is the Catholic Church in the world. We trust in His presence with us. As was promised His apostles. Emmanuel; God with us. We're saved because Christ made us followers IN His Church. When He founded her, He gave to His Church full custody of all His treasury of graces; which were merited for us by His death on the cross. THE CHURCH dispenses them in her sacraments. These are graces coming from JESUS dying for us on Calvary. It's all shown in the bible narratives. So-- don't say there's no need for his Church. And, don't declare unscripturally,
that the Church is made up of all "believers." A believer of false doctrine can't claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ. How does the Christian KNOW if he's the believer or the believer in false doctrine only? Not by just reading the Bible. He shall know for certain he is a True Believer when and if his faith is taught & confirmed by PETER, the Rock. Peter is our beacon upon this ocean of sin-- the Vicar of Christ on earth. Peter's Bark actually carried Our Lord over the sea itself, and now gives us that same voyage, infallibly.
The bishop of ROME is today's lineal, authentic successor of Peter the holy apostle. When the Christian believes and worships in accordance with the Popes, he is in the Church Jesus founded. ONLY THEN, and Jesus only founded ONE, the Catholic Church coming down to us from the beginning. We cannot fall into error in that Church, because the Holy Spirit guards her infallible truth forever.
3 bags full.
April 17, 2007 - 22:22 ET by Free Stinker3 bags full.
Well here you are, making th
April 17, 2007 - 22:23 ET by BlondeWell here you are, making things up again. Hmmmm.....
Tumbler, I have put your word
April 18, 2007 - 00:20 ET byTumbler, I have put your words in ‘Bold’ font and my responses in normal font.
There's no need to give you daily catechism. You renounce the Catholic Church like any other soul with free will. I'm loyal to Her by free will. Could it be you might reconsider? You are proud of yourself. For myself, I'm not here pursuing any personal ends. I already have the Divine Truth. (There are faithful Catholic schoolchildren who already have it, without ever having studied scripture.)
I would not call what I do, towards the Catholic church, “Renouncing” it. It is more like, what I do towards the teachers, priests and popes, and of course the teachings in and of themselves; and that which I do is, “Denounce,” them all.
It is not about being ‘proud’ of myself; it is about speaking the truth. You have decided that the Catholic church holds the ‘Divine Truth.’ I believe that the Bible holds the Divine Truth and that true Catholic church teachings go against the ‘Divine Truth.’ And yes, children have a tendency to believe what their parents teach them, often denouncing such as an adult.
Before you object that the Church cannot save us, only Jesus saves us; let me say that HE is the Catholic Church in the world. We trust in His presence with us. As was promised His apostles. Emmanuel; God with us. We're saved because Christ made us followers IN His Church. When He founded her, He gave to His Church full custody of all His treasury of graces; which were merited for us by His death on the cross. THE CHURCH dispenses them in her sacraments. These are graces coming from JESUS dying for us on Calvary. It's all shown in the bible narratives. So-- don't say there's no need for his Church. And, don't declare unscripturally,
Where is the Scripture that you believe supports your words? Scripture is clear that we are saved by Grace, through faith, which is a gift, lest any man should boast. We get this straight from God, not from a church –not even the true church.
that the Church is made up of all "believers." A believer of false doctrine can't claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ. How does the Christian KNOW if he's the believer or the believer in false doctrine only? Not by just reading the Bible. He shall know for certain he is a True Believer when and if his faith is taught & confirmed by PETER, the Rock. Peter is our beacon upon this ocean of sin-- the Vicar of Christ on earth. Peter's Bark actually carried Our Lord over the sea itself, and now gives us that same voyage, infallibly.
Those who believe in a false gospel are not part of the true church. This includes anyone who truly believes what the Catholic Church teaches for salvation.
And Scripture is clear that Jesus is the Rock, not Peter. Jesus was speaking ‘to’ Peter, about Himself. If you read further in the Scripture where Jesus was speaking to Peter, Jesus had no problem rebuking Peter for wanting to stop that which was to happen. (Jesus said, “Get behind me, Satan.)
Also, a ‘vicar,’ is a stand in. And there is no such thing as a stand in for Christ. Actually, Scripture refers to anyone who thinks that they are in the place of Christ, as an anti-Christ. Jesus was clear that the Holy Spirit would be sent to teach us all things.
The bishop of ROME is today's lineal, authentic successor of Peter the holy apostle. When the Christian believes and worships in accordance with the Popes, he is in the Church Jesus founded. ONLY THEN, and Jesus only founded ONE, the Catholic Church coming down to us from the beginning. We cannot fall into error in that Church, because the Holy Spirit guards her infallible truth forever.
Men voted in the bishop of Rome, not God. Nowhere does Scripture speak of people having to believe as a pope believes.
And though I believe there are true believers who have not left the Catholic church, there is no doubt, that Scripture does not support the teachings of the Catholic church. The Catholic church is not the true church.
And all people are fallible. Only God is perfect.
Debra...
one point at a time, Debra
April 22, 2007 - 12:49 ET by tumbler_2007First:
"what I do towards the teachers, priests and popes, and of course the teachings in and of themselves; and that which I do is, “Denounce,” them all. It is not about being ‘proud’ of myself; it is about speaking the truth. You have decided that the Catholic Church holds the ‘Divine Truth.’
REPLY: Yes; I see it as ATTACKING the faith of Catholics. Not enlightening them with the truth. You and the fundies are wallowing in error. Yet I'm being perverse if I attack your faith. The fact is, you were not given (by God or the Bible) authority to denounce the Church. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the truth, Paul has taught us (1 Tim, 3 :15). "You have decided that the Catholic Church holds the ‘Divine Truth.’ --" said Debra. YES, and in 1 Tim 3 :15, Paul tells us just that !
You have it that the Church isn't Rome, but some other, nebulous, unknown and invisible ether in space comprised of all "believers" genuinely interpreting the Holy Bible. But Believers in ERROR can't be in the Church. You build on false premises.
What's more, the apostles teachings were there in force before the Bible that YOU worship (bibliolatry) and even before there was the written New Testament, the Church had the grace from God to establish which holy books were indeed inspired. No Bible came down from the clouds to Fundie-Land. All the work of producing it was ENTIRELY accomplished by the Catholic Church for the Holy Spirit. Its inspiriation was by the Holy Spirit, entirely IN the Catholic Church.
All the first copies of the completed Bible had to be HAND-WRITTEN and proof-read and bound by Catholic monks in the care of bishops of --the Catholic Church. The Gutenberg Bible was printed by a practicing CATHOLIC, Johann Gutenberg. EVERYWHERE the Bible is in antiquity, you have the Catholic Church which you now audaciously "denounce." If you denounce the Church you have to denounce as well the GLORY of her faith, the Holy Bible. --Furthermore, if you claim the Church isn't Roman, explain the 1st chapter of Paul's holy epistle to the Romans. In it he declares how Rome's faith is renowned all over the world-- which incidently stands for --"universal, Katolikos."
"I believe that the Bible holds the Divine Truth and that true Catholic Church teachings go against the ‘Divine Truth.’ And yes, children have a tendency to believe what their parents teach them, often denouncing such as an adult." REPLY: Of course the Bible contains the Word of God. But the Bible isn't as user-friendly as you imagine. For one thing you can't rely on private interpretation, it was FORBIDDEN by St Peter: "This you must understand first; that no prophesy of Scripture is made by private interpretation," (2 Pet 1 :20,) and "In these epistles there are certain things difficult to understand, which the unlearned and unstable DISTORT, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Pet 3, :16.)
"--just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also, to their own destruction."
Peter put the finger precisely on you and botg, riled off, and the entire sectarian, denominational cohort of Catholic-denouncers. Or isn't Peter speaking the Word of God ? Not according to Debra, she's a Bible scholar ! Ha, ha!
1 Timothy 3:14 - 16 does not
April 23, 2007 - 01:02 ET by1) Tumbler...... 1 Timothy 3:14 - 16 does not even mention the word, "Catholic." It is speaking of the true church.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Debra-- 1 Tim 3 :14
April 24, 2007 - 23:49 ET by tumbler_2007Timothy 3 has Paul writing to a man about to enter holy orders, the priesthood. That's why he exorts Timothy to read the scriptures, be upright and learn well because he must comport himself with grace in the House of the Living God, the CHURCH which is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. The same Church Paul extolled in the first chapter and verse of ROMANS; a visible, active Church, with living saints ! Except Timothy lived in a place called Lystra, not the city of Rome.
Clearly he was speaking of the very same CHURCH JESUS FOUNDED, and which He indwells.
That's only one: the Catholic Church. We know because that's where the Catholic Church acquired and memorized the Holy Gospel; at the feet of Christ and the apostles.
You keep trying to materialize or invent another one, without a space on our planet or anything but a Bible. That's patently absurd. ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC; the four marks of the True Christian Church. Only the Catholic Church has all four.
Yours has . . . none. Not holy. Not one, not apostolic; and only a church in your MIND; not Catholic, . . . Catholic denotes all over the world, and in heaven, and all times. A perfect description of the Catholic Church which is in Rome. And also in the Scriptures, of course.
Have you ever thought of goin
April 25, 2007 - 00:35 ET byHave you ever thought of going into the fossil business, Tumbler? You have that circular reasoning 'thing' down pack. No seriously. Do you even see what you did?
You used 1st Timothy 3:15 to try to prove that the Catholic church is Jesus' Church; then when I showed you that the Scripture did not even mention the Catholic church, you use the Catholic church to try to prove that the Scripture was talking about the Catholic church.
jeeeeeepers.....
Debra...
what's the matter with you, debra?
April 25, 2007 - 01:26 ET by tumbler_2007Catholic, as in Catholic Church is an ATTRIBUTE, the way Christ's Church exists in his plan of salvation. He gives her many great attributes; all by HIS grace, nothing of the world's. Universal means one thing; an attribute applying only to One Church; the One who exists in every land, every people, in past and present and yet to come, and in heaven and on earth. UNIVERSAL; in the Greek, CATHOLIC. Christ made her HIS Church; visible and everlasting, with Peter for his chosen Vicar. He didn't name her, the world saw her; and seeing her realized she is the universal, true Church Jesus gave us (Catholic = universal).
You wanted Jesus to write all this down for people like YOU, who haven't acknowledged His apostles in the least? Who declare that the Bible Only is our rule of faith ? Why did Jesus found any Church, if Debra could wake up one morning and start a new one without even one link to his apostles? Are you kidding ? Catholic is the Church's outstanding attribute, which demonstrates to mankind that her origin is not of men, but God !
Jesus called her HIS Church
April 25, 2007 - 21:42 ET by tumbler_2007Jesus didn't give any name to his Church; but He definitely founded one; and a VISIBLE, everlasting Church.
Christians also called his Church "The Church." Once her influence was world-wide (and still is) the name "Catholic" came into popular use. But this was well after the Bible had been written. That name, Catholic was used as the hallmark; or sure sign that she came from Christ; she had become universal. That's all the word "catholic" means. To expect the name to come out of Peter and Paul's writings is absurd. When they were spreading the Gospel Christ's Holy Church was as yet in its infant stage; only later to be truly a universal body of believers. That's one reason why I usually say that she is the Church of the holy apostles. There is no ambiguity in it; we all know who the apostles are.
The Catholic Church through the centuries and more so today is the Catholic Church. NOT Roman Catholic; a misnomer. CATHOLIC CHURCH of Christ and His apostles.
2) Tumbler... You m
April 23, 2007 - 01:15 ET by2) Tumbler... You mock that I love God's Word and stand on it alone, hence you mock the very Word of God, that you try to use to support your beliefs.
God is very clear about His Word. And God is clear that Jesus is the Word made flesh. Let me give you some scripture about God's Word. And I suggest you ask yourself, why on earth, you would believe man over God's own Word?
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119: 160"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18-19 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." Romans 16:17-18 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:9 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89
"But the word of the Lord endureth for ever..." 1 Peter 1:25
"... the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:8
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul..." Psalm 19:7 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15
3) Tumbler.... The Bibl
April 23, 2007 - 01:46 ET by3) Tumbler.... The Bible is around in spite of the Catholic church, which came into existence close to 400 years after Jesus Christ was here in the flesh. The Word of God was completed around 100 AD, close to 300 years before the Catholic church came to be.
The Catholic church tried to hide the true Word of God and actually killed people who taught about true Salvation by Grace. The Catholic church added to the Word of God, and tried to pawn it off as the true Word of God, nothing less than what the Mormons have done.
The question about the Gutenberg bible, is, "How many 'books' were in it?" However, no matter what, Gutenberg invented "Movable type printing." He did not write what he printed. Just as King James did not write the KJV of the Bible, he commissioned it to be translated in a more easily understood English for the day.
It is a common misconception that all Bibles came from the Catholic church. Fact is, they did not. As I said above, the true Bible is around in spite of the Catholic church. The true Scriptures were here before the Catholic church, which tried to hide them from people.
The Catholic church claims to have gotten their Scriptures from the Western Texts, which they say came from the Original Autographs, completed between A.D. 40 - 100.
There are no surviving complete Traditional manuscripts, from those Original Autographs. However, there are Traditional Text -- Byzantine Text and Majority Text.
Neither the Traditional manuscripts nor the Traditional Text, came from the Western Texts (which the Catholic bible came from.) My Bible, came from the Traditional Text, which came from the Original Autographs, completed between A.D. 40 - 100.
Hence my Bible did not come from the Catholic bible.
Original Autographs
----- Western Texts
Latin text
Roman Catholic Bible
Original Autographs
----- Traditional Manuscripts
------- Traditional Text
(Byzantine Text and Marority Text)
-------1400s--Waldensians in the Italian Alps
------- Calvin's and Luther's translations
-------- Greek Text Editions
------ English Translations
1526 Tyndale
1535 Coverdale Bible
1537 Matthews Bible
1539-41 The Great Bible
1557-60 The Geneva Bible
1568 The Bishops Bible
1611 King James Version
self-serving falsehood
April 24, 2007 - 12:35 ET by tumbler_2007All your claims are self-serving and deceiving, Deb. Save them for the ignorant in your website.
Christ founded the Catholic Church. She is the Church of the holy apostles, the ONLY Church. The 400 years after Christ that you cite is only the end of her persecutions by Imperial Rome. Not her origins. We know for certain on which day ! DAY, the Catholic Church started in the world. Pentecost 33 A. D. when the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and Mary, under the appearance of forked flames over each of their heads. (Chapt 2, Acts of the Apostles.) That was her first active day, she has NEVER died, -- she never shall; but will meet Christ returning in glory, on the last day, according to His promises. SHE was given the Word of God, wrote it for the world, and is the final word on all interpretation of the Word, because she comes to us from the apostles. NOT any sectarian assembly or free-lance church. Without the Catholic Church, you would never have had your Bible. Admit it, live with it, get over it.
Tumbler bears false witness
April 24, 2007 - 14:16 ET by Cool ArrowYo Tumbleweed.
Still waiting for you to explain how the Bible is lying.
Joseph knew her not till after Jesus was born.
Shouldn't be hard for you to twist the truth. you do so much of it.
Riled One,Exactly. "New
April 24, 2007 - 18:06 ET byRiled One,
Exactly. "New her" means that he had sex with her. So Scripture saying that "Joseph new her not till after Jesus was born," means Joseph had sex with her after Jesus was born.
Debra...
Tumbler - you won't change DJ
April 24, 2007 - 14:25 ET by florida_chadTumbler - you won't change DJS or Riled Ones mind on this. They are too sure of themselves that they are smarter than all the Catholics. I guess I'll see you in hell. At least GW will get us acclimated to the increase in temperature. Have fun in Europe.
Chad
April 24, 2007 - 14:58 ET by Cool Arrowmaybe you can answer Tumbler's dilemma.
Joseph knew her not till after Jesus was born.
Didn't think so.
Your arrogance is incredible.
April 24, 2007 - 15:06 ET by florida_chadYour arrogance is incredible. Your are just so sure that I can't answer you didn't even give me time. I don't know what religion you moved to after Catholicism, but it does not serve you well. Good luck in life. OH, being as smart as you are I guess you won't need luck. Hay, can you use that big brain to solve some of the worlds pressing problems?
I didn't think so.................
floriday_chad,Then answer it.
April 24, 2007 - 18:08 ET byfloriday_chad,
Then answer it.
Debra...
If all else fails, lie. Right
April 24, 2007 - 18:03 ET byIf all else fails, lie. Right, Tumbler?
4) Tumbler.... Read the v
April 23, 2007 - 02:13 ET by4) Tumbler.... Read the verse in context, about private interpretation. It is speaking against the teaching 'that understanding Scripture is a private thing' that only some are privy to. Fact is, the Word of God is explained by the One who wrote it, The Holy Spirit, who teaches God's children in all things.
2 Peter 1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
____________________________________________________________
This is supported by:
5) Tumbler ...
April 23, 2007 - 02:41 ET by5) Tumbler ... This needs to be read in context.....
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
_____________________________________________________________
I think I will address true believers here, because, tumbler, you are just not going to grasp this, because YOU do not understand Scriptures.
So, to those who are true believers, reading this:
This Scripture is telling us true believers to be careful not to be led away from our security (steadfastness) in the Lord (not to lose salvation, though).
It is like this. Have you ever had someone challenge you about Scripture, much like Tumbler does? And at first glance, you become confused? .... So, you fall from your steadfastness, you begin to wonder if the person is right.
This Scripture is saying, hey, "Grow in Grace and and in Knowledge," so that you are wise to false teachings and not led away from your steadfastness, by the error of those who are not of God, but still of the world.
And notice the order of this command -- Grow in Grace and in Knowledge <------
While growing in Knowledge, do so while growing in Grace. Do you get it? Grace is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Milk of The Word of God. Knowledge is the meat of The Word of God. Don't try to eat the meat of God's Word, without washing it down with a big glass of Milk.
Everything you take into your soul about God's Word, take it in while growing in Grace. In other words, if something you are thinking conflicts with Grace, then you are thinking wrong. Pray and ask God to show you what Scripture means, don't just believe someone who comes and tells you something that goes against the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Debra..
Deb, you may note in this pas
April 23, 2007 - 17:43 ET byDeb, you may note in this passage Peter gives deference to Paul due to Paul's ability to exposit the differcult things. I don't think the vicar of God would do such:
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
study your Bible, botg
April 26, 2007 - 17:02 ET by tumbler_2007botiger says:
"Note in this passage Peter gives deference to Paul due to Paul's ability to exposit the difficult things. I don't think the vicar of God would do such, blah."
Unfortunately for you unbelievers; Jesus Christ said differently. He said to Peter, "I will give THEE the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou (Peter) shalt bind on earth" --ON EARTH, PALS! "-- shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16 :19.)
Jesus called Paul to convert the Gentiles, but never gave him any keys to the kingdom of heaven. --These keys stand for total PRIMACY; LEADERSHIP over the Church, which on earth is Christ's kingdom. You can hem & haw; but JESUS knew what He was doing; He appointed PETER His Vicar on earth. It's irrelevant that you choose to pick a fight between him and Paul; Peter is the Vicar of Christ.
Tbut JESUS knew what He was d
April 26, 2007 - 19:49 ET byT
but JESUS knew what He was doing; He appointed PETER His Vicar on earth. It's irrelevant that you choose to pick a fight between him and Paul; Peter is the Vicar of Christ.
Of course Jesus knew what he was doing, the point you refuse to see is Paul withstood Peter to his face because he was to be blamed, and the fact that Peter himself claims Paul to be the authority for exposotory (Paul here has the infallibility ex-cathedra not Peter). Also Peter was married. Three reasons Peter could not be the first pope. The Eastern Orthodox Church also claims apostolic authority.
T you also would do well to be a good ambassador, to help you do so i would suggest you print out the Tumbler forum and have your priest read it. He will be able to strenghten you on the doctrine of the church and speak to you about the proper attitude for an good-will ambassador
bo-tiger? may have to cha
April 26, 2007 - 20:52 ET bybo-tiger? may have to change my handle
I tell debra the context:
April 26, 2007 - 17:08 ET by tumbler_2007How can you tell such cock and bull stories from the Bible ? --It's precisely from these silly arguments we see you're NOT a believer. Believers don't distort words from Scripture the way you do. Get it ?
Grace--full
April 26, 2007 - 19:52 ET byGrace--full
How can Jesus call Peter both
April 26, 2007 - 19:56 ET by tracheostomyHow can Jesus call Peter both "Rock" and "Satan" during the same encounter?
Answer me.
-PJ
And thus began the schism of
April 26, 2007 - 20:36 ET by MobiusStripAnd thus began the schism of those that followed Christ, as it was written. And this God of those who followed the Prophets of the First Book, and, yea, those also of the Book of Mohammed rejoiced in their misgivings unto one another, and smote them in their divisive ways, as a cloven hoof they no longer walked as one, yet carried a burden together.
Now why would a freakin ath
April 26, 2007 - 20:42 ET by MightyMouthNow why would a freakin athiest want to join in on a holy war? Get your ass whipped on enough other threads you thought you would come in and give the ignerent' christians a hard time? Welcome to HELL TROLL!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Is there a point
April 17, 2007 - 20:58 ET by E4PukeIs there a point to this thread or did I click on a wrong link?
...this thread points to the
April 17, 2007 - 21:02 ET by TruthMonger...this thread points to the Kingdom of Heaven...where were you going?
truth
April 19, 2007 - 15:09 ET by misterbillI am heading to the Kingdom of Heaven, but I do not believe I will get there by following people arguing with each other on a media blog site. I would rather follow those who are trained to assist me in my path to God, Jesus and salvation.
Here, I would rather discuss the issues of man and the artifices of the MSM.
April 17, 2007 - 21:02 ET by
I think we are waiting for so
April 17, 2007 - 21:03 ET byI think we are waiting for someone to put forth a true question about Biblical "born again" Christianity or about Catholicism.
I like this one:Luke 13.25-27
April 17, 2007 - 21:06 ET by TruthMongerI like this one:
Luke 13.25-27
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity...
THUS ENDETH THIS THREAD....
Tso who's who and how to defi
April 17, 2007 - 21:14 ET byT
so who's who and how to define His will; it still leaves the original question open
...does it? Read it again...p
April 17, 2007 - 21:34 ET by TruthMonger...does it? Read it again...pray for discernment...seek and ye shall find:)!
the passage in question point
April 17, 2007 - 22:45 ET bythe passage in question points out that there are those true disciples and false disciples and that the true do the will of God. It does not expound the evangel nor the true will of God. I would that you would be ready to give an answer to all who ask for the (reason for) the hope of the faith that is within you.
...well I must admit you do n
April 19, 2007 - 15:00 ET by TruthMonger...well I must admit you do need to read the whole Book...then you might get your answers...God won't fail you one bit on instruction of His will...if you are truly seeking it, that is...
Allllrrighttee then
April 19, 2007 - 19:52 ET byAllllrrighttee then
TruthMonger,It is by the Holy
April 17, 2007 - 21:17 ET byTruthMonger,
It is by the Holy Spirit, that anyone is able to do the Father's will. When a person is born again in Christ, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, the person can do the will of the Father. ...Debra
I do concur:)!
April 17, 2007 - 21:22 ET by TruthMongerI do concur:)!
explain to truth monger please
April 18, 2007 - 00:14 ET by tumbler_2007Wouldn't you like TruthMonger to know, Debra;
HOW a Christian can be sure he/she truly DOES that Will; the real Will of God ?
I can say like a Hindu; that God wills for us to bathe on a holy feast day in the River Ganghes. Once I've bathed, my sins are all washed away, and so on. But is this truly what God has commanded?
Then, if some other "believer" tells me that is NOT what I had to do, I argue that it is; because I saw it written in my holy book. -- Who says to you, THIS is the Father's Will? Who says you're already indwelt with His Holy Spirit? You may be going exclusively on your subjective feelings and not indwelt --
Because mortal sin separates us from the Holy Spirit. We leave His divine protection and BAR by sin and rebellion an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We're all sinners !
Jesus Himself had many fervent followers; disciples who loved Him. But we see how (John 6 :54) once He declared a certain truth, a truth they were scandalized in; they went away and walked with Jesus no more. Do you think these men kept any contact with the Holy Spirit despite NOT believing Christ's words?
You may say they weren't born again as yet. Who told you that?
Bible Christians have no real concept of that "rebirth." His Church teaches we're born again in Holy Baptism. You say it's "born again in Christ"-- after you read the Bible?
In balance, you are so far unable to keep all the commandments of the Father. WHY? Because you have not understood and believed the full Gospel of Jesus. Why? Because you have passed into heresy from the original doctrines of the apostles; WHY? Because churches founded by mere MEN have made you a believer in false doctrines.
Hold on ! How could they do that if all believers were "indwelt of the Holy Spirit," --? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth ! EXACTLY. You were with Him in the Catholic Church, where you were kept in His infallible truth.
When you leave the Church (founded by Christ) no longer are you protected from error. When you had a private encounter with God, he made you love Him and desire Him and His glory. But you didn't come to his Church, where we worship according EXACTLY to His divine Will. You are devout as far as your private concept of the Father's Will is concerned. A faulty concept; but it's better than nothing. You need the Gospel as taught by the apostles; not by Henry VIII or John Calvin or Martin Luther or Zwingli or Wesley or Mary Baker Eddy or anybody else. You must embrace the Catholic faith ONLY. --THEN you will have the fulness of the holy Spirit, to do the Will of Jesus Christ's Father in heaven. There will never be any doubt about it. And your faith will truly give Him glory.
Tumbler, I will respond to th
April 18, 2007 - 06:11 ET byTumbler.... You are believing men, over the Word of God, The Holy Bible. Yet, you use Scripture, though be-it out of context, to try to support the fact that you believe men over God's Word. Think about the contradiction in that. ........Debra...
Tumbleweed dodges again
April 24, 2007 - 14:19 ET by Cool ArrowYou still haven't explained away the Bible statement that:
Joseph knew her not till after Jesus was born.
Doesn't fit in with your teaching, huh?
You should mong more truth
April 22, 2007 - 13:07 ET by tumbler_2007Truth Monger:
I like this one:
What you like is irrelevant, it's what God reveals that is important, TM. -- Like it or not.
Luke 13.25-27
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity...
Very good. . . . That is precisely as taught the faithful in the Catholic Church. The Church has never told us all Catholics are inevitably going to heaven; on the contrary. We are taught to LOVE God with all our hearts and SERVE HIM, and love our neighbor.
We are warned that as we sow we shall reap. --We are taught that even ONE unrepented sin is enough to send us to damnation. We must LOVE Jesus Christ, have faith in His promises, and through HIM we must WORSHIP and OBEY Almighty God.
THUS YOU MAY GO IN PEACE.
.
Tumbler still runs
April 24, 2007 - 14:21 ET by Cool ArrowYou still haven't explained away the Bible statement that:
Joseph knew her not till after Jesus was born.
Your whole devotion to Mary depends on this being a lie.
try R. C. Sproul 'Faith
April 17, 2007 - 21:09 ET byDeb
try R. C. Sproul 'Faith Alone' though he juxaposes Roman Catholicism with Reformed Theology
botg, what does that mean?
April 17, 2007 - 21:24 ET bybotg, what does that mean?
Deb, I was responding to yo
April 17, 2007 - 21:37 ET byDeb, I was responding to your post on a true question regarding Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism. R. C. Sproul wrote a book called 'Faith Alone' (Sola Fideas) which examines the positions of Reformed Theology and Roman Catholics in regards to faith and salvation
Oh, I have never heard of the
April 17, 2007 - 21:39 ET byOh, I have never heard of the book. Thanks....
Aww, c'mon, guys! I expected
April 20, 2007 - 13:57 ET by Dave RAww, c'mon, guys! I expected sooooooooo much better here.
Are you going to wimp out on us here? :-)
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.- Neal Boortz.
Well, Dave, how about we move
April 20, 2007 - 21:01 ET byWell, Dave, how about we move on to talk about Mormonism. That is your faith belief? Am I correct, or am I confusing you with someone else?
:o)
Sorry, Deb. Baptist am I. Sou
April 24, 2007 - 06:22 ET by Dave RSorry, Deb. Baptist am I. Southern Baptist.
Funny, eh?
This republic will not survive the continued neglect of its people.- Neal Boortz.
Seriously? Most Southern Bapt
April 24, 2007 - 18:22 ET bySeriously? Most Southern Baptists would find much in common with my faith-beliefs. Why did I think that you had defended Mormonism on this site? Is there another Dave?
Tumbler,Over on another threa
April 21, 2007 - 17:43 ET byTumbler,
Over on another thread, you said the following to me, and I want to comment on it over here as to not go so far off topic on that thread. My response follows. Here is your comment:
Stop acting the drama queen and pharisee.
I marvel at this fact. Never yet have you expressed your LOVE for Jesus Christ, or for your neighbor. It's consistently about You, your blog, and your love of scripture. God being hung out to dry in favor of your self-absorbed Bible study. When do we ever see you proclaim, "I love Jesus Christ, enough to give my life for Him."-- ???
In our Church, all hearts are turned to JESUS. Every prayer to our saints is aimed ultimately at HIM. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We are joyful being His beloved Church --destined for one day entering His wedding feast as His BRIDE, the Church who adores Him. His Church who serves Him and places nothing before Him. And, guess what, Debra ?
The Blessed Virigin Mary is Mother of His Church. She is in the Catholic Church, in His kingdom. She's one level below her divine SON, and over every angel and saint. This is Mary's level of holiness in the kingdom of heaven; having been chosen as Mother of God.
___________________________________________________________
My response to you:
Tumbler,
You do not know the first thing about loving Jesus. Scripture is clear that those who love Jesus do the will of the Father. True believers do not have to go around like flower children, humming and praying on street corners. It is all about doing the will of the Father. Jesus said to the disciples, “as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” –Hence, I am told to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when Jesus asked Peter three times if Peter loved Jesus, Jesus said, "Then feed my sheep."
My entire site is about feeding the sheep and educating them (God says that His people perish for lack of wisdom) and spreading the gospel those who have ears to hear.
You claim to love Jesus? Yet you pray to saints and you elevate Mary higher than she is and you call her the 'Mother of His church,' and the "Mother of God."
Mary is a normal child of God's. Jesus died for her sins too. Jesus is Mary's Savior too. Also, Mary had other children after Jesus – she did not die a virgin. And Mary is the mother of the body of Jesus Christ, not the mother of God. Jesus is fully man and fully God. Mary is not the mother of God.
While you are praying to those saints and worshiping your church and your pope, I am doing the will of God. While you are feeding a sick need to worship Mary, I am feeding Jesus' sheep and educating them, so that more do not perish and I am spreading the true gospel of Jesus Christ. While you love Satan, I love Jesus! <