Before this is over, I predict that Virginia Tech President Charles Steger will apologize for errors that he and his administration made in dealing with yesterday's massacre. But as of this morning, Steger was still seeking to defend the failure to alert students for two hours after the initial murders. As Matt Lauer politely pointed out, his explanation would seem to fail a simple test of logic.
"Today" host Lauer interviewed Steger during the show's first half-hour.
LAUER: As you continue to mourn here at Virginia Tech University, you're also facing some very difficult questions from students and from parents and from law enforcement people who are saying we had a shooting take place at 7:15 in the dormitory in this part of the campus, and yet an email didn't go out warning students even to be cautious until two hours later.
STEGER: Well, the incident, as reported by our security people, was believed to be confined to that dorm room; an incident between two individuals. When that happened we immediately closed down that dormitory, surrounded it with security . . .
LAUER: But you didn't find the shooter at that time. You didn't find the culprit, so you had to assume that he was at large or she was at large [PC points to Matt for that.]
STEGER: We had to first see whether or not there was a murder weapon and whether or not it was a murder suicide. And then we had to track down witnesses to see if anybody saw anything else. That's what took some time.
Here is the crux of the matter. Steger takes the position that a more benign explanation had to be excluded before taking action based on a more ominous scenario. Lauer exposed Steger's error in logic.
LAUER: I think what I've been hearing talking to students and others over the last 20 hours or so is why not assume the worst assume the worst-case scenario? Why not err on the side of caution and say we've got someone who's taken either one or two lives. If it's murder-suicide, end of story. But if it's someone who's taken two lives, the game has changed and that person now has nothing to lose and has to be considered extraordinarily dangerous.
STEGER: You have to appreciate that of our 26,000 students only 9,000 live on campus. So at that time of the morning you've got 15-16,000 people in transit. You've got another 7,000 employees and 2-3,000 visitors on the campus. And so these people are going to be all over the campus. We felt letting them get into the classroom and then closing down the classrooms, which is what we did . . .
Lauer threw Steger something of a life-line
LAUER: So you're worst-case scenario was thousands of students milling about outdoors when there was a possibile shooter roaming . . .
Steger was happy to grasp it.
STEGER: That's right and you could have also, since we now know the second person was a dormitory resident, we could have ended up locking him in the dormitory and this could have happened just at another location.
LAUER: Students I spoke to yesterday, President Steger, said 'I wish I would at least have had the option. If I had been given the information at 7:45, at 8 o'clock, I could have made my own educated decision as to where to be for the rest of the morning.' And perhaps some of those students wouldn't have gone to a class where you say they could be locked in and protected. As it turned out, unfortunately, they were trapped in those classrooms.
STEGER: Well, the ones in those immediate classrooms were, it's true. But remember, we have 26,000 students to look after.
LAUER: You met with you're executive committee at I think 8:25 yesterday morning? What was the major discussion then, and even at that point was there a discussion about getting that email out quicker than the hour it took from that meeting?
STEGER: Well, we started planning what the options were. We were at that point in time still getting information from witnesses and in fact people were still being questioned at 9:15. As soon as we had some sense we released that.
LAUER: What was your gut feeling, President Steger, when that second call came, and you knew that earlier in the morning you had a tragedy in a dormitory, and here comes a second call, and I believe it was labelled multiple victims?
Though Lauer didn't make it explict, his implication seemed clear: how did you feel when you realized your failure to alert people as soon as you heard of the first incident might have cost other people their lives?
Steger either didn't get the implication or chose to ignore it, speaking instead of his administration's actions to "manage the crisis at the moment."
Steger and his administration are academics, not law enforcement professionals, though presumably he was being advised by campus security officials. There is no doubt much, much more to come out. For the time being, Steger is defending his decisions rather than acknowledging the possibility that, in all good faith, he and his administration made mistakes with tragic consequences.
Contact Mark at mark@gunhill.net
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.















Comments Policy
"Why not err on the si
April 17, 2007 - 08:11 ET by MightyMouth"Why not err on the side of caution?"
That is one of the biggest problems with society today. Over reaction to EVERYTHING!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
You're saying it would have
April 17, 2007 - 08:24 ET by Mark FinkelsteinYou're saying it would have been an overreaction to notify students that there had been a murder on campus and that the murderer had not been captured??
Notify 30 thousand people a
April 17, 2007 - 08:27 ET by MightyMouthNotify 30 thousand people about someone they thought had fled the scene? Yes an overreaction. And notification wouldn't have done anything. Closing the campus and deploying hundereds of cops would. But that wasn't going to happen. All I am saying is we can't second guess the official response to the first murders.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
If you had notified people,
April 17, 2007 - 08:33 ET by Mark FinkelsteinIf you had notified people, which could have been done with the push of an email button, many people would have stayed off campus, not gone to classes, etc. Lives could well have been saved. Again, you had a situation where the administration had to assume there was a killer on the loose.
They "thought" had
April 17, 2007 - 08:33 ET by CaringwhiteguyThey "thought" had fled the scene? Did they know for sure?
Probably not but don't you
April 17, 2007 - 08:36 ET by MightyMouthProbably not but don't you think they were following protocol? If you blame the initial response by the cops, on the cops, then you have to point out where they failed to follow procedure. I know we want to blame someone for this, but the ONLY one to blame, is the shooter, period!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The shooter is responsible,
April 17, 2007 - 08:43 ET by sarcasmoThe shooter is responsible, but there's a reason his victims were disarmed, and that reason is a "well thought out" university policy I'm trying very hard to get people to blame, despite my cloak-impediment. The people responsible for that policy do not want us to talk about it, and instead want us to blame hi-cap mags. I'm not buying that BS, and I hope none of you are, either.
JMR
sarc, I have said elsewhere
April 17, 2007 - 08:54 ET by MightyMouthsarc, I have said elsewhere that these kids were raised victims, and victims they became. Same for 9/11. 100 airline passangers could easily take out 4 or 5 little guys with box cutters. But they didn't, why? Because we are taught to: NOT FIGHT BACK! What I cannot understand is, how people allow themselves to be shot, execution style? What's up with that?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
You should read some of the
April 17, 2007 - 09:18 ET by sarcasmoYou should read some of the studies Milgram & others did, before ethics commissions came around & destroyed all the fun. Ordinary college students can quickly become brutal prison guards or meek prisoners in astounding numbers, with little or even no dissent, when presented with authority figures telling them it's what they should do. Once you're in a defenseless situation due to a failed university policy, at least seeming to cooperate is probably a good survival strategy, so I'm hesitant to judge the actions of the victims without knowing more, but I'm sure being the first guy to fight-back in a Flight 93 type situation like this takes a lot of courage. I'm trying to keep all my focus on the failed policy concealed weapons permit holding members of the VA Tech community warned-about, though, so the particulars of this incident, while horrific, aren't all that important to me -- in the sense that they're not at all a surprise.
JMR
What I cannot understand is
April 17, 2007 - 09:26 ET by Dave RWhat I cannot understand is, how people allow themselves to be shot, execution style? What's up with that?
One word: Liberalism. It, aside from being a mental disorder, is turning us into a society of wusses. Just look at what our resident libtrolls are coming in here and saying about this today.
MM, I am not sayng the administration or the police should be held responsible for the first shooting, or even the second, as the responsiblility for that lies squarely on the shoulders of the shooter. But their reaction, I think, could have been better and quite possibly would have saved many lives. They should have done more, and sooner, until they had at the very least accounted for the shooter.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
"They should have done
April 17, 2007 - 09:46 ET by MightyMouth"They should have done more, and sooner..."
Dave, to a certain extent I am with you and Mark on this. However, I don't think overreaction (by that I mean assume worst case scenerio) should be the first choice. First of all, that won't last long, as with the thousands of murders in the US every year most of them are routine. This one in a million, was not. But who knew? Now if it comes out that the cops were being lazy and not following established procedure, then Yes, there would be a cause for blame.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
I believe it was a mistake
April 17, 2007 - 08:43 ET by Mark FinkelsteinI believe it was a mistake to wait two hours before warning others since the administration could not have been sure that the killer was himself dead.
Mark I agree to a point. S
April 17, 2007 - 08:47 ET by MightyMouthMark I agree to a point. Simply warning others would not have stopped the subsequent murders. A campus shutdown and swat everywhere might have. The first two murders probably did not warrant that. And I believe there were emails sent out (like that would accomplish anything).
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The campus should have been s
April 17, 2007 - 10:45 ET by mattmThe campus should have been swarming with (real) cops within 5 minutes of the first call.
Mark,Boortz just related a
April 17, 2007 - 08:41 ET by Dave RMark,
Boortz just related a story that somewhere around 25 students apparently allowed themselves to be lined up and shot without even fighting back. If this is true, I find it to be one of the most distressing aspects of this whole tragedy.
How could this many people allow this to happpen? Has liberalism so infected our way of thinking that many of us are no-longer willing to act to save even our own lives, much less the lives of others?
As for wanting the president of VT's head on a platter being an overreaction, I don't think so. From what I have read and heard so far, this entire affair was handled badly by both the school administrators as well as the campus police. I would have expected better given that we are living in a post 9/11 world, despite the fact that so many seem determined to forget that.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Warning: Media Lynching in Progress
April 17, 2007 - 08:24 ET by pearlWarning: Media Lynching in Progress
The media are flexing their muscles exercised during the Imus episode to try to lynch the VT President.
VT had no reason to close down the entire school after someone is shot in a dorm. Can anyone cite a single example when this has ever happened at a large college with hundreds of buildings? If it happened at a K-12 school with a few buildings, of course you would shut the buildings down.
You had a situation in whic
April 17, 2007 - 08:27 ET by Mark FinkelsteinYou had a situation in which there had been 1-2 murders, with the killer on the loose. How can you justify not notifying others under the circumstances?
Students were notified
April 17, 2007 - 08:41 ET by pearlStudents were notified.
Even if emails were sent to all students, how many would read their email at 7:30am?
Maybe the real problem is: how do you notify everyone effectively? Colleges all over the country need some way other than email to notify everyone.
pearl,They could have annou
April 17, 2007 - 08:54 ET by Dave Rpearl,
They could have announced this to the local media right away. After all, two hours elapsed from the first shooting until the second, plenty of time to get the word out and to get people off campus even in a place that large.
The assumption that this was a domestice incident was a stupid one, given the times we live in. This, for all they knew, could have been a major terrorist attack, which in a certain sense it was. You had a known armed individual who was not accounted for.
If the place had been shut down, I'm guessing that most, if not all of those students killed in the second attack would have been spared. I think the fact that the place wasn't shut down indicates that complacancy has returned to the outlook of many.
I further think the authorities were more concerned with keeping things quiet and hoping it all just went away.
But that is just me.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Where would you send the 9000 folks from the dorms?
April 17, 2007 - 08:59 ET by pearlWhere would you send the 9000 folks that live in the dorms? 9000 people would be standing around outside waiting on a bus (pretty easy targets).
Why would you think there had been a terrorist attack when someone kills their girlfriend?
1) Students constantly read t
April 17, 2007 - 09:09 ET by Caringwhiteguy1) Students constantly read their e-mails. They are attached like an umbilical cord to their laptops or Blackberries. They are continually texting one another.
2) I don't believe the suggestion is being made to evacuate the campus. The suggestion is to lock down the facilities (keep people in their dorms or commuters off-campus) until a search to determine whether an armed murderer is still on campus.
Why would you think there h
April 17, 2007 - 09:15 ET by Dave RWhy would you think there had been a terrorist attack when someone kills their girlfriend?
Had this guy offed himself and was found laying next to her, as is often the case, I wouldn't have. But this guy was lose somewhere, thus the authorities really didn't know what they were dealing with. If there had been news of this on the radio shortly after the first shooting, people would have had adequate time to get well away from the area.
I mean, this jerk had time enough to chain exit doors closed. Something just isn't right about the way this was handled.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Shut down Manhattan
April 17, 2007 - 09:24 ET by pearlShut down Manhattan
I guess if a shooting happens in NYC the mayor should shutdown Manhattan until the shooter is found?
The VT campus is a small town with 30000 or more folks.
The reponse in NYC is much mo
April 17, 2007 - 09:29 ET by Gat New YorkThe reponse in NYC is much more rapid and professional. In a way they do shut down a particular area when a shooting occurs to prevent other innocents. At VT you were not speaking about 10 minutes - it was hours between the inital shooting and the massacre. Campuses do have procedures to lock-down all residents and faculty. The issue is that they did not do it when they should and did not communicate it effectively.
Hours minutes or days
April 17, 2007 - 09:37 ET by pearlHours minutes or days
Why does that matter? There was no reason for anyone to believe there was a threat to others on campus. The man did not indiscriminately fire into the dorm. He went to a specific dorm room and killed someone he knew.
Of course there was a reason
April 17, 2007 - 09:52 ET by Gat New YorkOf course there was a reason to lock down. They did not have the shooter and he was at large. You have to assume anything can happen.
Gat,Whether or not a total
April 17, 2007 - 10:14 ET by Dave RGat,
Whether or not a total lockdown would have been effective is a matter of debate, but the authorities not informing people about what was going on for two hours is negligence that, IMHO, approaches being criminal.
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Maybe the VTU administration
April 17, 2007 - 08:35 ET by CaringwhiteguyMaybe the VTU administration was aware the shooter was Asian and felt politically uncomfortable with possibly "inflaming" the situation.
Stetching
April 17, 2007 - 09:17 ET by shawn228Thats absurb Caring White Guy.
We'll see.
April 17, 2007 - 09:21 ET by CaringwhiteguyWe'll see.
CWG,I think you are on to s
April 17, 2007 - 09:38 ET by Dave RCWG,
I think you are on to something. When I first heard the shooter was Asian, my first thought was Islamic. We have seen the liberal MSM use the term Asian to describe Islamic terrorists before, in an attempt to hide their true ID as well as what their true motives may have been.
Given the level of liberal PC insanity pervading our society today, I would not be surprised to learn that the long wait before issuing any warnings to the students was, in fact, due to the race of the shooter.
Liberalism is, after all, a self-destructive mental disorder. Just ask those people who allowed themselves to be lined up and executed without resistence. Oh, wait, they're dead now! Silly me.
That is the type of world liberalism is leading us toward. Why do you think they support gun control?
Only a liberal is stupid enough to believe that we will all be safer if only the government has guns, but then, that isn't really why they support the snatching of our guns now, is it?
Homeland Security is you, at home, with a loaded firearm.
Beware English Majors
April 17, 2007 - 09:48 ET by pearlBeware English Majors
No, they were afraid of the public backlash against English majors. People will be discriminating against English majors now.
The immediate rush to blame &
April 17, 2007 - 08:49 ET by Mike SThe immediate rush to blame "the authorities" is truly amazing. The authorities are not to blame. One crazy individual is to blame.
Just like we were caught unprepared on 9-11 because no one had ever used commercial airliners as weapons, this was a unique situation that was not easily anticipated. How many times in the past has a shooter left the scene of a crime, then returned to a different building in the area hours later to continue the rampage?
I live in a large city. I'm sure there have been numerous times that there was a shooting near where I live, work, or commute. No one ever sent me an e-mail warning about that.
There is no defense in delayi
April 17, 2007 - 08:50 ET by Gat New YorkThere is no defense in delaying an aggressive notification and lock-down of all students/faculty with the first shooting when the shooter is at large and even when all they have is a person of interest in custody. Email notification is not enough. They still make loud speaker systems like bullhorns.
There is a larger issue of campus security and how many campuses have ineffective procedures and in the hands of unprofessional administrators.
If the government is to do anything they should enact laws that require a minimum level of procedures to protect students. This is not a gun control issue. There were no so-calle assault weapons and I believe this South Korean national had a license.
GAT, with all due respect,
April 17, 2007 - 08:58 ET by MightyMouthGAT, with all due respect, this couldn't have been fixed with another Law. This was a random act of madness. The only law that could have provided a better outcome, would be one that would allow students or faculty to be capable of self defense.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Liberals are going to try to
April 17, 2007 - 09:15 ET by Gat New YorkLiberals are going to try to rush through a battery of new gun control legislation. Carolyn McCarthy of New York already said if her assault weapon legislation had been enacted it could have prevented this. Unfortunately Carolyn doesn't watch the news and see that it was a 9mm hand gun and not a so-called assault weapon. You can't legislate against psychopaths. But I saw what has happened on other campuses with arson and shootings. I have no doubt that the VT President could have done more to secure the campus to prevent the second round of shootings.
I do not think these campus administrators are trained and equipped to handle crisis situations and there is no consistent standard of security for college campuses in general. They are more concerned about the rights of left wing ideologue teachers than they are the security and the rights of students.
This is about the 3rd time I
April 17, 2007 - 09:20 ET by jcrapes4This is about the 3rd time I tried writing this post. I am trying not to monday morning quarterback VA Tech's call, however I think they misjudged the situation to say the least. I believe a lockdown at first and loud speakers announcements would have caused mass hysteria and great confusion. Possibly even led to a higher death toll than what happened yesterday. That said I don't understand why VA Tech waited 2 hours before saying anything at all. I am going to refrain from the I would have done this comments. I have no law enforcement exp and though I have ideas from hindsight for all I know had I been the one making the call as to who and when to inform people my policies might have gotten more students killed. Sorry for the rambling I am numb this morning.
Neither President Is To Blame
April 17, 2007 - 09:03 ET by CGatton"...I predict that Virginia Tech President Charles Steger will apologize for errors that he and his administration made..."
I hope not. I'm really tired of apologies made when none is owed.
It is not often that I disagree with your analysis, Mark, but in this case I am compelled to point out that the cause of the problem here, the person to blame, if you will, is the person who did the shooting. Thirty plus people are dead, and the college president, members of the executive committee, the head of security, individual security personnel, and President Bush (yes, there are some out there who will be pointing the finger at him) are not at fault. Let's keep focused here, and stop trying to make ourselves feel better by assuming we could/would have made different, possibly better/worse decisions that may (not) have saved lives.
Trying to pin blame, or rather, shift it from the person who did the shooting, can only accomplish self-serving goals. Already there are cries of "Sue! Sue!" and "Fire them! Fire them!" How many ambulance chasing lawyers are already calling on potential clients, or filling out court filings? These cases that will be filed will have nothing to do with "making certain such heinous crimes never again occur," or "sending a message to [fill in the blank] that we will not tolerate..." Instead, they will be about making money for the lawyers involved, and those who feel they are 'owed' something from the system.
Were mistakes made? Perhaps. Would an immediate lock-down have created a different outcome? Yes. Note that I do not say better, since changing the actions taken necessarily leads to an alterative result. Nothing will change what has already happened, nor will anything ever prove that a different course of action would have ended better. Is there any way to determine coulda/shoulda/woulda? Absolutely not!
So, let's offer condolences to the families of those who lost relatives, friends, and loved ones, and refrain from piling on the people who had to make snap decisions in a violent world.
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
Of course the vast majority
April 17, 2007 - 09:12 ET by Mark FinkelsteinOf course the vast majority of the blame is on the murderer himself. But that doesn't mean others couldn't have done a better job in handling the situation.
Absolutely agree. These colle
April 17, 2007 - 09:18 ET by Gat New YorkAbsolutely agree. These college administrators are not trained for security situations like this or events much less horrific. I do not think the VT President's inadequate response was any different than what most college President's would have done, and that is a problem. The issue is not gun control. The issue needs to be campus security.
Ok, let's say that's the is
April 17, 2007 - 09:23 ET by sarcasmoOk, let's say that's the issue then. Why does "gun control" (victim disarmament) lead to less campus security? Why must "we" learn this lesson that predators prefer unarmed victims over & over??
JMR
The fact is that the campus d
April 17, 2007 - 09:34 ET by Gat New YorkThe fact is that the campus does have gun control because although you are permitted to carry a firearm on campus you are not permitted to carry a firearm in dorms or classrooms. I may be wrong, but I think this man had a license to carry a firearm. You can't legislate against a psychopath - all you can do is provide security measures to prevent harm to others.
I don't know about licensin
April 17, 2007 - 10:12 ET by sarcasmoI don't know about licensing (but I doubt the man had any license given FL stats showing license holders tend to be law abiding). I do know that where a handgun was needed is in dorms and classrooms, so the exact way to legislate a solution to the behavior of this psychopath was tried, and failed. With predictable results. Why can't "my side" say "we told you so" to everyone in the grab-lobby without this focus on side-issues? University policy failed, and those who paid for it with their lives were not the failed policy-makers.
JMR
Perhaps There Was No Better Way
April 17, 2007 - 09:21 ET by CGattonI guess the issue here is that we have absolutely no way of knowing what or if there was a better way. Reverting to my past, as the one in charge of security of a submarine in both domenstic and foreign ports, from what I have read and seen (and that is all any of us have to go on!) nothing was done wrong, and anything that might have been done better is pure conjecture. While many things might have been done differently, better is beyond our ken.
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
Mark, you are exactly right.F
April 17, 2007 - 09:30 ET by Jack BauerMark, you are exactly right.
From what I can gather there was some inexcusably poor judgments made by those paid to be better than that.
Fox reports that one of the murder victims was resident in the same dorm that was the scene of the first double murder.
Clearly somebody in law enforcement (confirmed by the VT President) assumed it was a murder/suicide, despite the fact that no weapon was found by the bodies.
This student (and all the others) was allowed to go to class, only to be murdered by the same shooter two hours later.
There are many questions to be answered here. And starting from the assumption everything was done "well" serves nobody's interest, except those trying to hold onto their jobs.
No doubt that VT bungled this
April 17, 2007 - 09:39 ET by bassndudeNo doubt that VT bungled this one. It was supposed to be a gun free zone. After the first shooting, when no gun was found, campus should have been locked down. There is no excuse for this. If your going to declare that there are no guns on campus, it is your responsibility to ensure that there are no guns. And to lock down when there is any type of shooting, untill the gun is found. This is inexcusable.
That said, I dont belive in gun free zones. There is no way to be 100% sure there are no guns in any area. So you should arm everyone in the area, teach them to shoot, and be responsible. One of them goes "nuts" so to speak, you would never see the results from yesterday, again.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Hindsight
April 17, 2007 - 09:35 ET by allanfI don't think Dr. Steger or any rational person could have had an inkling at 7:30AM of what was to follow. Terrible things happen, and quite often there is nothing you can do in the way of prevention.. This may well have been one of those instances.
Imagine if New York City or Los Angeles went on "lock-down" after a male/female homocide in a residence. You just can't do it and still have a functioning city. As with our erstwhile Homeland Security threat system, false alarms would predominate. A warning system with a high false alarm rate is not a warning system.
It comes from a mindset that one can control and prevent anything. Well life just does not work that way. Sometimes things beyond anyone's control happen.
Assuming he didn't know wha
April 17, 2007 - 09:40 ET by Mark FinkelsteinPerhaps
April 17, 2007 - 09:57 ET by allanfIn locking down the campus, you may just have "locked" the shooter inside a building with many other students. The results may very well have been the same.
The police did not know who they were seeking or where he was. It is one thing if armed prison escapees are roaming the streets and you can tell people what to watch out for.
Is is another thing entirely if you are not sure what you are looking for. The young killer could have used his student ID to calmly gain entry into a building an then begun his work anew.
I just can't fault Dr. Steger for the actions of a lunatic.
Amen Brother
April 17, 2007 - 10:01 ET by pearlAmen Brother
Please stop the lynching.
Not lynching but..
April 17, 2007 - 10:37 ET by econ 101...If better communication was used...if it would have kept one kid from going to campus...I dont know about this...I know hindsite...but if it would have kept your kid from going...
FOX NEWS is news. MSM is Jerry Springer crap
WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG
To readily fault the universi
April 17, 2007 - 10:27 ET by Lux Et VeritasTo readily fault the university is to allow hindsight to glare the initial perspective. The email alert is, in fact, rather expedious considering the nature of the crime does not divine itself to police or university staff. This course of action is augmented by the preliminary premise that this was an isolated event, which is seemingly a rational conclusion. The complexities of "locking down" over 100 buildings across 2,600 acres are vast, and maximizing to the abilities of a small police force, which are better devoted to capturing the killer. Furthermore, what would a "lock down" have acheived? Nothing more than to encapsulate the derranged killer in another campus building, populated by students, which is, in its effect, no different than the end outcome. Lastly, it is a massive assumption that the university community could have been thoroughly notified and the property completely secured in the span of two hours. That is to say that the crime was inevitable in the scope of its horror. Any action that was not directed at capturing the killer (and I have not heard argumentation that an effort of this sort was failing), would merely rearrange the tragedy. Criticizing and more exactly, nitpicking, the response is a search for a scapegoat. The reality remains. An unchecked agressor can and will kill indiscriminately in the face of a populace that can and will not defend itself.
This is idiotic statement. If
April 17, 2007 - 11:57 ET by Evil CapitalistThis is idiotic statement. If a university has its own police/security force, then its police/security force must be capable of dealing with such situations, including figuring out how to quickly isolate the potential gunman locations. If they are not capable of doing it, they should not be in a business of being a police and security force.
How are they going to do so is Irrelevant. In business we call it "Not My Problem" and our attorneys are very good at making sure that every vendor knows that we will wipe them out should they fail to deliver what they promise. I hope that administration/administrators of VT get taken to the cleaners by the lawsuits that are coming. It is the threat of losing their cushy jobs, savings and houses that will force administrators of the other universities to do something about providing security in a so called "secure" campus.
No police force, anywhere, ca
April 17, 2007 - 13:23 ET by Lux Et VeritasNo police force, anywhere, can even pretend to secure every building under its purview. It is simply unrealistic as a matter of scale, because that sort of activity is almost never required. The one exception to a definite reality does not impugn the abilities or design of the agency as a whole. There is a limit to the number of secruity agents that can be employed on a regular basis, or in other words the university can not "put a policeman on every corner" because it is practically and financially unfeasible. Because there are practical limits to what a police agency can achieve it is silly to suggest how things are executed is irrelevant. It is elementally relevant. Efforts are channeled towards detaining the criminal, rather than dispersing force to secure that which will henceforth be secure. This seems to have been the aim of the local authorities, to identify and apprehend the prepetrator. It is a matter of efficency of resources.
The non sequitur regarding contractual obligations in business is both bizarre and foolish. Police are expected to prevent crime to the best of their ability, not absolutely. Under the logic advanced anytime police failed to prevent a crime, they would be breaching their contract with the public to provide secruity. This is nonsensical on its face.
It is not my goal to minimize the horror or tragedy of the event. However, hand waving about forgotten preventive measures, be they perceived lax gun control or adminstrative ineptitude, will not ameliorate the situation. There is only one person that wanted those people to die yesterday, and the blame begins and ends there.
The police response to a shoo
April 17, 2007 - 09:41 ET by Gat New YorkThe police response to a shooting in NYC is essentially to have enough of a lockdown of an area after a shooting of any kind to protect others. College campuses do have campuswide lockdown procedures. In this case there were the killing of two people in a dorm and the shooter at large. I am sorry but if I am the college President until I know for a certainty that the police know who the shooter is and either have him in custody or know his whereabouts I lockdown the campus. The responsibilities of a university President are far more expansive than a city Mayor with regard to the welfare of its residents.
You are parsing the definitio
April 17, 2007 - 09:59 ET by Mike SYou are parsing the definition of "lockdown an area" and using information that wasn't available at the time. Why is your judgement to lock down the campus better than their judgement to lock down the dorm building? Why not lock down the whole town rather than just the campus?
A college President has the r
April 17, 2007 - 10:58 ET by Gat New YorkA college President has the responsibility for the protection all the students in their trust. That is why they have lockdown procedures and have their own campus police. What they do not have is the required training to manage crisis situations such as this. They are primarily academics - have generally never run a corporation or a government entity. They should have better capabilities and judgment because the first priority of any parent sending their kid to college is for their safety - not their degree. There was zero excuse for not locking-down this campus before 8 AM when the first shootings took place and before they knew about the shooter. And the communication to students then was unnacceptable.
allanf...if you have prohibit
April 17, 2007 - 09:54 ET by bassndudeallanf...if you have prohibited fire arms in an area, and you control that area, do you not plan for the event anyway? And if you have two deaths from a fire arm, is it not logical to assume someone, somewhere violated that prohibition? And is it not your responsibility to implememt some sort of plan to find that fire arm? The campus should have been locked down, tight, classrooms, dorms and persons should have been searched untill said fire arm was found. This was not NYC, nor LA. Not even close. Do you not plan for the worst and hope for the best? This is a case of neglect. Plain and simple. VT has a responsibility to protect these students, and they failed because of incompetence.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bearer of Bad News
April 17, 2007 - 10:02 ET by allanfAs a practical matter, you cannot always implement a worst case scenario plan based on a tragic event. New York City does not shut down the subways and bridges based on a male/female residential homocide.
They did after a second plane crashed into the World Trade Center.
I think even if the University had implemented a lockdown plan the results likely would have been the same. The only way to have prevented a mass killing that day was to have either caught the shooter or ensured that people did not gather en mass. The second option is difficult in a college campus.
You are assuming that the sho
April 17, 2007 - 10:03 ET by Mike SYou are assuming that the shooter and the gun stayed on campus. You cannot shut down the campus and search until you find the gun when the most likely event is that once he fled the dorm, he also left the campus. Does the college administration have the right to search every dorm room, every backpack, every car, and every locked trunk until they find the gun?
Does the college administrati
April 17, 2007 - 10:17 ET by Jack BauerWell, it's private property owned by the college. Students are there by invitation. So I guess yes, they do.
Private property? Isn't Virgi
April 17, 2007 - 12:39 ET by Mike SPrivate property? Isn't Virginia Tech a state school? Even if it is private property, does Wal-mart have the authority to approve the opening of my trunk and searching my car in its parking lot?
Off Campus Housing
April 17, 2007 - 10:27 ET by CGatton"Does the college administration have the right to search every dorm room, every backpack, every car, and every locked trunk until they find the gun?"
Whether they do or do not, since the murderer also had quarters off campus they might never located the weapon. Does that mean the campus would remain on lock-down forever? Given the length of time between shootings, I suspect Cho Seung-Hui sat back, and only went to the next area when he felt it was safe to do so. In my opinion, a lock-down would have accomplished nothing, since he would have just waited until it was over.
Oh yes...but in that length of time the passion would have faded.... Bull-pucky! If he didn't change his mind in 2 hours, he wasn't going to change it during a 24 hour lock-down.
Oh but...he might have realized he would die in a future attempt...Snork! Since he was prepared to and did commit suicide, I would guess that wouldn't deter him.
Well yes, but...there would have been time to implement better security...You bet! At least one armed officer in every classroom and hallway, screening devices at all entrance points. Just how long was this lock-down going to last?
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
As long as is nessary. You se
April 17, 2007 - 11:24 ET by bassndudeAs long as is nessary. You seem to miss the point. The point is, that if you are assuming the responsibility for the safety of all parties involved, you have the responsibility to do just that. If you are forbidding fire arms onto campus, you have a responsibility to ensure that. If you cant do these two little things, you had best plan on what happned yesterday, and have a response planed. This was not NYC or LA nor any other city in the US. It was a collage. The fact is, VT failed to protect, plan or respond, untill to late. Had the students been armed, how many would be dead today? Not 32 of them.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Missed Point? Perhaps...Perhaps Not
April 17, 2007 - 12:12 ET by CGatton"As long as is nessary"
Not possible. The regular routine has to be restarted at some time, whether or not the gun is found. In this case, from the reports of the first incident, any rational person would assume the perpetrator had fled the scene. Any other assuption would be pure paranoia.
"You seem to miss the point"
I don't think so, but perhaps you are. If you are a member of VT's administration or security forces you might have a better idea of what could/should have been done than the rest of us. Barring those credentials, you are out here with me looking in, and Monday morning quarterbacking. In my opinion, and yes, I am aware of what opinions are like, there was nothing done wrong or inappropriately. Measures commensurate with what had occurred were taken, locking down the entire campus would not be a proportionate response to the shooting of two individuals in a dorm room. Locking down the dorm would be.
"...if you are assuming the responsibility for the safety of all parties involved, you have the responsibility to do just that"
Impossible to do, as you seem to mean it. Your writing implies the absolute safety of all parties, which is an impossible condition to meet. If you wish to argue that by nullifying Virginia's concealed carry law on campus the school took it upon themselves to ensure that no guns were ever brought onto campus, you may try to do so. However, you will run afoul of what possible and reasonable actions could be taken to ensure compliance. Please note that while I do not agree with the University's actions in this matter, it is simply a red herring in this discussion.
"The fact is, VT failed to protect, plan or respond, untill to late."
Please don't use the word 'fact' unless you know it is a fact. I would venture a guess that VT did plan, respond, and protect. Since neither you nor I are privy to the inner policies of the school, we both are making assumptions. What you really mean is they did not take the actions you wanted them to take. I can accept that you disagree with their call...perhaps when you have been in their situation you might feel differently.
"Had the students been armed, how many would be dead today?"
Unknown, but your argument has no bearing on whether or not the administration's actions were appropriate or not, after a dorm room shooting had occurred. You seem to want to make this incident the 'poster child' for VT's negating the concealed carry law. While I do not believe that any subordinate entity has the right to negate legislation passed by a governing body, that argument is just as intellectually disingenuous as is the one the gun control lobby is trying to use, to wit, that better gun control laws would have prevented the actions of a single deranged individual. Neither has any bearing on the actions under review.
R/
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
A thought provoking image can
April 17, 2007 - 10:58 ET by AlgerHissA thought provoking image can be seen here.
Rochester, Minnesota: A Fem_Leftist City!
perpetual lynch mob
April 17, 2007 - 11:08 ET by Ten7sThe media and its followers seem to have transformed into a perpetual lynch mob. All they need is a crime, conjecture, a rope, a tree. Its revolting to see a community victimized by a sociopathic criminal of historical proportions, and then see a pack of ghoulish blood-thirsty hyenas try gorge themselves on the aftermath. I've seen more compassion from an alligator.
VT mistakes?
April 17, 2007 - 11:18 ET by d1carterI heard or read last night that the investigators at the first shooting had witness reports that the shooter left in a black pickup truck. So there was a search in place for the vehicle. Based on what the witnesses were telling them they were following the leads. Yeah, I wish they had posted guards at all buildings and locked down the entire campus, but would it have stopped shootings in the building housing the shooter. Who knows? Knowing what we know now.....
It's disgraceful that a perso
April 17, 2007 - 11:44 ET by sembyIt's disgraceful that a person who is only a journalist and not in law enforcement or not an investigator can rip into someone like a monkey on a cupcake.
I mean please let the normal process take place, we don't need the likes of the media to point out to us what took place and what went wrong.
The media IS NOT trustworthy and are not able to provide a fair and balanced report.
If the president is guilty, then I am sure he will resign; but please just give everyone a week to come to grips with this massacre.
It is already happening. Bria
April 17, 2007 - 13:15 ET by Gat New YorkIt is already happening. Brian Williams is already spinnng a way of blaming Bush for this. He said, "in a way this is part of Homeland Security . . "
VA Tech
April 17, 2007 - 13:16 ET by pocomocoWhat we have here is how a ‘feel good’ law, passed by VA Tech disallowing the carrying of guns on the campus, is showing us yet another glaring example of The Law Of Unintended Consequence at work.
I’m sure that the shooter would have had second thoughts if he knew others ‘may’ also be carrying guns. I for one, wouldn’t have allowed him to line me up against the wall to be executed.