The poster child of the Democrat/liberal party. ..."I don't like what's happening, but I don't have ANY answers or a plan".. But I will stand in the corner and bitch and moan and groan like a 5 yr old and have a g'damn hissy fit and blame everbody else for not coming up with a solution!! If you don't have anything that would help besides "I don't know", maybe you just need to just STFU!!!! You offer NOTHING!!!!, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO!!

"Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money...." MARGARET THATCHER

What you miserably fail to understand is the following:

1) If the crime rate in Houston goes up, I won't expect to see Bill White get on TV and say "I am reducing our police force by half because having a police force makes more criminals".  That is, if he wants to continue to be mayor of Houston.

2) If fires and arson becomes a problem, I won't likewise expect Mr. White to say "To reduce the threat of fires, I am shutting down half of the fire stations permanently.  That is, once again, if he wants to continue to be the mayor of Houston.

3) Did the ranks of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union swell after the deployment of Pershings and GLCMs to Europe in 1983?

4) Did the Nazi Party gain more members after D-day? 

5) Is there a massive South Korean wing of the Korean Worker's Party that is swelling in ranks due to U.S. forces being there? 

6) I visited Japan last year and was treated with extreme kindness by the Japanese people.  Mind explaining why that was?

You are going to have to face cold, hard reality one day.  As long as the United States exists, someone will harbor a grudge against it.  In short, the only way we will not have enemies of any kind is if we just wake up tomorrow and end the United States of America.  You, WhichWing, are close to being 231 years too late. 

"We created the chaos in that country" - Sure, and life was WONDERFUL under Saddam Hussein, wasn't it, WW?  Of course it was!  Nothing Bad Ever Happens On The Left, according to WW. 

In closing, I recommend you read the novel Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.  If only to read one specific scene:

In the world of this novel, every high school student had to take a course called History and Moral Philosophy.  Every student had to take it, but none ever had to pass.  On the final day of the course, the teacher heard this whine from a student: "My mother told me that violence doesn't solve anything."  Without hesitation, the teacher said, "The citizens of Carthage would very much appreciate those views.  Why doesn't she go there and tell them?  Better yet, you go tell them." 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Ah, diplomacy.  Good to see you have vested so much faith in it!  Too damn bad its record in history is so piss-poor, especially when not teamed with things like MASSIVE VIOLENCE, the imminent threat thereof, and VICTORY.

Let me give you a great example of how I would do diplomacy.  Let us use the recent captivity of the British sailors as an example.  I am not a Brit, nor am I a Foreign Minister, but I'll just play one on NB. 

Negotiations would be quite short.  I would enter the room and would say, "You know what to do.  Hand over the sailors and nobody gets hurt."  Of course, the Iranians would make their statement; except unlike most diplomats, who repeat their positions ad nauseum (arms control negotiations were painful in that regard especially), I'd get up and leave. 

I would then hit the mikes and the waiting media outside, and have the shortest press conference in history, consisting of three little words, which spark the military operation: "Sorry.  We Tried." 

Bombs begin falling and a rescue operation commences.

The next day, after I have gotten what I wanted, I begin another press conference with "Now that they know I am serious..."

Look at what Reagan did.  In October 1986, when Gorbachev made lousy offers to him (begging Reagan to put an end to SDI), he got up and left the Reykjavik summit.  I remember this well.  The world was aghast at why Reagan would do such a thing.  Well, for one thing, he was in a position of strength.  Why cave to The Evil Empire when he didn't have to?  BUT, as a result of that confrontation, and the military buildup in Europe and elsewhere, and the deployment of the Pershing 2s and GLCMs in the face of whiny Leftist opposition (who never dared ask themselves why the Soviets couldn't withdraw their SS-20s from the European theater), a better deal was on tap in late 1987 in Washington, as both sides agreed to eliminate an entire class of nuclear weapons. 

When you desire peace, you don't just babble about how much you want peace.  You arm to protect it.  As Vegetius once said, "If you desire peace, prepare for war."  Sad but true, and I am, as I was once described, "the ultimate realist".

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

WhichWing....

     Don't you get it?  These terrorists aren't the result of our actions in Iraq, or anywhere else in the world.  They are the result of an ideological difference.  Are you really trying to say that we caused their radicalization, and as the result of a free Iraq, there are more terrorists?

     Well, you would be right.  I am not joking here, nor am I in agreement with anything else you have said.  But on this one point, you are correct.

     You asked earlier what Victory would be to us?  Well, I can't speak for my friend Unsane, but I'm guessin he feels very near to the way I do.  Let me give explaining this to you a shot.

     I said previously that you were correct in the notion that we caused the radicalization of many of these new terrorists.  But we view this in very different terms.  Yes, our actions brought about an increase in the attempt to radicalize new islamists, but no for the reasons you suggest.  Fear is the true reason.   They fear the Hope that we bring with us, and ultimately, they are trying to recruit more in the hopes of stifling that hope.

     What is Victory?  Victory is liberty.  Victory is Hope.  And these new terrorists are an indication that the untimate victory is cycling on.  Why are these Terrorists recruiting so hard?  Because hope is their greatest enemy.  Islam may be a religion of peace, related to Judaism and Christianity.  But Radical Islam is a tool of oppression.  They think differently than we do.  They do not want what we want.  We can give them everything they ask, and they will cheer, and then start plotting our death.  We can leave the middle east, and they will cheer, and start plotting to attack us here.  The basis for all of this is the difference between the ideologies.  We wish to advance the world, regardless of race, religion, etc.  They seek to kill those who do not believe as they do.  Nothing we offer them, short of conversion to Islam (but even that has it's problems, as the constant Shiah/Sunni fighting is evidence of.), will appease them.  Because we stand for everyhting they don't.  Tolerance, Liberty, Prosperity.....and most of all Hope.

     The Statue of Liberty is more than just a monument.  It is a symbol.  It is an Idea.  Her torch is a beacon, a shining light, meant to guide the world through the fog of tyranny, subjegation and oppression and toward a better way of life.  Nothing strikes more fear into the core of the fundamentalists hearts than her visage.  Because hope is truest weapon against oppression.  She is a symbol of hope the world over.  Every one of our troops carries her light with them.

     This is why they fear us.  This is why they fear our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.  They fear that if her light reachs this place, and starts to spead to the Syrian, Iranian, Jordanian, Saudi, and other arab peoples, that hope will spread.  And those with hope are far less easily oppressed.  That Light...That hope, is the seed of liberty.  And the Radical Islamists fear nothing more.  Hope is the beginning of liberty. 

     This is why leaving is wrong.  This is why we have never left Korea, Japan, and Germany.  Because Lady Liberty's light shines through us.  Look at Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia.  Look what her light has done.  But it doesn't happen overnight.  It doesn't happen on a scheduled timeline.  Over sixty years have gone by since the end of World War II, and we are still seeing the fruit of our efforts blooming in Asia and Europe today.  And more will bloom tomorrow.  This is what we strive for in the middle east.  This is what we work for.  To make true Jeffersons words, "that all men were created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.  That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

     Lady Liberty is why they hate us.  She is why they fear us.  And the only way to silence her is to silence us, to kill us.  To try and remove that symbol of hope, to extinguish her spark from the hearts of those they wish to oppress.  We could leave Iraq tomorrow, and they would celebrate their victory, and then use that victory to recruit even more terrorists to come here and work towards a final victory. 

     And, regardless of what the Media, who have moved closer and closer to becoming active propagandists for dictators, despots and oppressors in general, may print, we are winning this battle.  I have two brothers currently in Iraq.  Our soldiers, who are far more reliable and have far more invested than some socialist scribe with an axe to grind at the local AnyMetro Herald, tell us of continued greeting and attempted giftings in the street by appreciative Iraqis.  The seeds have been planted, and these fundamentalists want to spoil the crop by displacing our troops before the Lady's Torch starts to shine in the shadows of the surrounding nations.

     But for now, the Matron of Freedom bears down to fend off the newest waves of oppression and smiles a little at their folly.  When left to her work, she and her infantry have never failed.

     -"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream.   It is something that must be fought for, protected, and passed on to them to do the same." Ronald Reagan-