Those who remember how quickly the leftists drove conservative blogger Ben Domenech out of the Washington Post blogging corps after three days (with no conservative replacement) should know that the liberal cast of bloggers remain untouched (and perhaps, in some cases, unread). I've been tipped to one Emil Steiner today, taking off after Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy for supporting a marriage-protection bill in Illinois. This, to Steiner, makes him akin to the religious folks who brought 9/11, not to mention foolish religious advocates of "racial purity, ethnic cleansing, and drinking the Kool Aid." Most importantly, Steiner thought Dungy's position showed him to be a traitor to his race:
Though Dungy's position may not constitute "gay-bashing" per se, it certainly implies that homosexual Americans are not entitled to the same rights as heterosexual citizens, much the same way as conservatives have in the past condemned mixed racial marriages in support of "family values." Moreover, the pretext of acting on "the Lord's behalf" has for millennia been used by some as an excuse for the most unholy acts, among them 9/11. Though supporters of Dungy are quick to point out he is only "exercising his First Amendment right," so too, then, are those who advocate for racial purity, ethnic cleansing and drinking the Kool Aid.
The bottom line is that by disenfranchising a group of citizens because of his religion, Dungy is essentially placing the values of church above the rights of the State. Even though he is entitled to that opinion of inequality, the government is not entitled to act upon it. And while, as some have said, Tony Dungy's Super Bowl triumph illustrated how black people are capable of anything white people are, his comments seemingly reinforce that discrimination is among those capacities.
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.






















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Well here we go with the libe
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 16:33 ET by Airforce_5_OWell here we go with the liberal hypocrisy. Tony Dungy, the first black coach to win a Pro Football Championship, is called a racist, and a homophobe.
Well, well, well.
Where are Sharpton and Jessie on this one?
Al and Jessie
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:35 ET by Jerry MackAs soon as there is money to be made or the Msm shows up, Jessie and Al will be there!
Al and Jessie
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:36 ET by Jerry MackAs soon as there is money to be made or the Msm shows up, Jessie and Al will be there!
Personally, I was THRILLED th
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 16:39 ET by SouthJersey1953Personally, I was THRILLED that Tony Dungy voiced his support for families and family values when discussing the award he will receive from the Indiana Family Institute. And I am also not surpised that the activists that DEMAND we be tolerant of thier immorality, are not at all tolerant of any opposing viewpoint and are pressuring Dungy not to accept the award as reported here.
Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for. - Will Rogers
thanks, Tim et al
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 17:27 ET by tumbler_2007Well, the world will protest and the "secular progressives" as O'Reilly insists on calling them, these LIBERAL elitists can squawk. God just will not go away. What are the real ground rules? Do we follow our own passions or follow the Christian faith? --Just a day ago, we were strictly reminded by Pope Benedict XVI, of the true existence of hell; and not a figurative one.
The Pope said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they risked "eternal damnation - the inferno".
Hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more". That's what the Pope says. NOW WHAT ?
What are perverted sinners to think of that ? "--You mean we'll really be damned to hellfire forever, if we persist in defiance of God's word? COME ON !" There wasn't much doubt about it. He said hell is awaiting many souls at the ends of their lifetime. Because they have to repent and change their lives. That was the teaching of the apostles who learned it from the Son of God. Period.
Just a little bit: "If thy hand or thy foot is an occasion of sin to thee, cut it off and cast it from thee! It is better for thee to enter life maimed or lame; than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. --Matthew, 18 :8 Why would Jesus tell you this, and the apostles say it in the Gospel ? Just on a whim ?
He has every right to his bel
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 17:07 ET by PamHe has every right to his belief and there is no logical arguement that was made by the author to suggest otherwise. Um..yes, the State(or government) can and does follow the laws set forth prohibiting gay marriages. His big mistake was citing The Loving vs. Virginia Case as support of his arguement....that case was heard by the SCOTUS and the law deemed illegal because WHITES, and only whites could not marry outside their race...I have debated many gays that try to tell me that their struggle is just the same as that of the blacks...well it isn't and it doesn't even come close.
If one studies the voting patterns of the blacks, it would appear that the majority vote Democrat. It is also fairly well documented that blacks are also very religious. Their religious teaching tell them that homosexuality is morally wrong.
The author does support my stance that the gay marriage stuggle is not divided by Repulican vs Democrat...far too many people from both sides of the aisle disapprove of it and when they are all by themselves in the voting booth, they vote against gay marriage.
and btw, I am a supporter of
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 17:09 ET by Pamand btw, I am a supporter of gay rights....
Pam, I am to so to speak. The
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 17:14 ET by bassndudePam, I am to so to speak. They have a right to be gay, and I have a right to laugh at them and point.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I am totally against gay ri
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:07 ET by liberal_bug_zapperI am totally against gay rights, womans rights, black rights, Latino rights, immigrant rights, workers rights, and <name your minority> rights.
The only rights I support are those that are in the Bill of Rights, everything else should be disposed of and laughed off the stage. Unfortunately, someone early on served you up a bill of goods that stated that someone deserves more rights than everyone already has.
Its the same thing like what Congress is doing passing new immigration laws.... MORONS ENFORCE THE OLD LAWS FIRST... then, if they seem inadequate, amend them.
Gays do not deserve special rights, they deserve the same rights I have.
____________________________________________________
"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities." ~ Thomas Paine
This is typical demagoguery:
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 17:25 ET by mattmThis is typical demagoguery: Demonize your "opposition" through moral equivalence with commonly accepted evil entities.
Libs are experts at this tactic. Example: Conservative, Christian, Traditional, Republican = Nazi, Terrorist, Bigot, Greedy; So, don't listen to those evil people, listen to us, and let us tell you what's what, or else we will lump you in with the evil people.
This tactic is much easier than debating the merits of issues, and it has the added advantage of not legitimizing the evil opposition by allowing them into the debate.
BTW: This is an age old technique which tyrants have used since the days of the Pharaoh's.
Matt, they can't debate and
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:22 ET by Senior ChiefMatt, they can't debate and won't. Exchange of ideas, merits of issues, what's that?? It's too deep for them to comprehend moral and immoral, right from wrong, justice and injustice. Like what you stated, they will be the ones to tell their blind followers right from wrong...Democracks = leftoids = losers. Period.
I was stunned when I read thi
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 18:05 ET by Ron was RIGHTI was stunned when I read this: Dungy is essentially placing the values of the church above the rights of the State.
Notice he capitalized State but not Church. I also was stunned to know that the State has rights. I thought citizens had rights, and I thought that the policies of that State was based on what ever values the citizens are. The Citizens of this country do not want gay marriage and a bunch of liberals want to force it down our throats like they did abortion. These people are Stalinist or at lthe very east their tactics are.
I was stunned when I read thi
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 18:05 ET by Ron was RIGHTdouble post sorry.
It is ironic though that Dung
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 18:38 ET by balboaIt is ironic though that Dungy is a black man, part of a race that had to fight for its rights, taking the position that gays can't do something. Some people used to think blacks mixing in with the white folk--either by marriage, or at the lunch counter or in the same neighborhood-- was immoral, too.
A gay man has exactly the sam
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 19:09 ET by Ron was RIGHTA gay man has exactly the same rights as I do. If I want to marry a Woman, then I can. If a Gay man wants to marry a woman, then he can. I do not have the right to marry a man and neither does he. There are no differences in our rights. What they want is new rights.
I think it is very telling that when Gay organizations are offered 'civil unions' as a compromise, they reject it. Not because it is any different from marriage (its not), but because it is not called marriage. It is nothing more then a issue that they use to stick it to the majority of Americans. Kinda like saying "We're here, We're Queer, GET USED TO IT!"
It's not ironic at all, balboa
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 10:17 ET by RJIt's not ironic at all, balboa. Many blacks, probably most, are offended that the homosexual community and their supporters are trying to use "civil rights" as a wedge in their argument. They see that as diminishing their own battle. I wholeheartedly agree with them.
...or how about we're here, w
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 11:35 ET by TruthMonger...or how about we're here, we're CHRISTIAN, get used to it : ) ?
no sir, balbowa
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 19:24 ET by tumbler_2007Sorry; you're off the mark. It is not "ironic", it's refreshing; that a man should stand up like a man for the truth, instead of dismissing God's warnings in favor of the world's manners. When the world is wrong, we have to say so. As men of good will said it when they fought against racial injustice. Trust in God's approval; not in the morals of the worm pile. Worms live and die in a dunghill. They need no courage to live. Men have to show real courage in our day and age.
You do understand that not ev
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 19:32 ET by balboaYou do understand that not everyone believes that God has the last word on everything.
Well I thought this was a sto
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 20:09 ET by Ron was RIGHTWell I thought this was a story about what Tony believes. We do know that not everyone believes this, but that doesn't mean that the godless are right.
You do understand that african americans have minds of their own and can make decisions for themselves, don't you?
I'm saying just because you b
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:07 ET by balboaI'm saying just because you believe homosexuality to be "godless" and the Bible says not to do it, doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone in this country, and not everyone believes that to be a universal truth.
reply to Ron was Right
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 01:19 ET by JudithAfrican Americans will not have minds of their own until they get off "the Democrat plantation". 85% still vote democrat, its where the freebies come from.
Mr. Dungy expressed his perso
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:33 ET by Senior ChiefMr. Dungy expressed his personal beliefs, irregardless of godless (gutless) people's views of God. God does has the last Word on EVERYTHING, Bal. You just don't want to believe it...That's what Faith is all about, and that's where Faith comes in.
Mr. Dungy expressed his perso
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:36 ET by Senior ChiefMr. Dungy expressed his personal beliefs, irregardless of godless (gutless) people's views of God. God does has the last Word on EVERYTHING, Bal. You just don't want to believe it...That's what Faith is all about, and that's where Faith comes in.
a very specious attitude
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:07 ET by tumbler_2007I find that specious at best.
"Not everyone believes that God has the last word on everything."
That's a given. What isn't a given is that I must respect those who are oblivious of right and wrong. Which homosexual/lesbians seem to be, frankly. I know this Tony Dungy isn't indifferent or oblivious of right and wrong. Therefore he deserves our respect. If I'm wrong, I answer only to God. --Not to offended liberals, straight, gay or atheist. They would never defend my viewpoints, so let them defend their own without me.
"What isn't a given is that I
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:12 ET by balboa"What isn't a given is that I must respect those who are oblivious of right and wrong."
Right and wrong as you see it. Homosexuals and many others would probably say they don't have to respect you, someone they believe to be oblivious of right and wrong as they interpret it.
you only speak for yourself
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:31 ET by tumbler_2007I see you as oblivious of normal human life. But remember I wouldn't force you to live by Christian values. You're free to live on your own terms. However, if I respect you, you will think you're above reproach. You aren't.
Yet, you reproach others who follow God, because you think He's unimportant. You think gays and lesbians are just as important as He is. Better if you wouldn't reproach anybody. Be discreet in your obstinacy. Be quiet and go your way. It was good enough for many admirable and beloved gays, such as Noel Coward, Cole Porter, Truman Capote, Rock Hudson. They accepted a place of their own, unmolested. We loved them and didn't abuse them. But you want the world turned upside-down to please idiots who are never content.
I'm not reproaching people wh
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:34 ET by balboaI'm not reproaching people who follow God. I'm making an argument.
you have a right
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 23:59 ET by tumbler_2007Yes; a specious argument in my view. You ought to save your energy for a stronger argument, IMHO. Take your time and contemplate these things. They are NOT superficial problems, they affect every moment of our lives. As Escalante told his calculus students, who were beefing;
"You figure who cares if we screw up this mathematical course, --don't you? I'm telling you, I don't want you screwing up your whole lives ! Give it all you've got now !"
Gays and lesbians have chosen to screw up not only their own lives. They'll screw up all of western society, because they won't TRY to live correctly.
Gee thanks, but I'm not convi
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 00:03 ET by balboaGee thanks, but I'm not convinced your logic is that strong, either.
you're welcome, bal
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 00:13 ET by tumbler_2007There's little doubt that I haven't yet acquired all the wisdom of a 70 year-old. I can't brag.
But I love God. I know what it means in a man's life, because God is a generous and forgiving Father. He never disappoints. I've had the most unendurable, drastic tests in my life, no exaggeration. Without Him I would have committed suicide. The world didn't come to my aid, only God. He made me believe.
So, logic isn't all on my side. I make it stretch with unwavering faith.
Like a good sermon, AMEN to t
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:27 ET by Senior ChiefLike a good sermon, AMEN to that brother and preach it!
"Some people used to thi
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 12:15 ET by mattm"Some people used to think..." Well, Bal, they were wrong then, but not now.
A person's race is not the same as their behavioral choices. I don't buy the "born gay" argument (unless it's a developmental disorder.) Human beings are male and female. We are heterosexual by nature. It's simple biology.
Yet the gay rights people want to force acceptance of their behavioral choices upon the rest of society. They're aren't satisfied with mere tolerance (which is what their complaint used to be), they want total acceptance. And they want opposing opinions banned, and for those of us who hold opposing views to be persecuted. This is why the term "homophobia" was invented.
This is a far cry from the Civil Rights movement. It's insulting to even suggest the analogy.
There can be no such thing as
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 21:14 ET by MidAmericaThere can be no such thing as 'Gay Marriage'. There can be same sex marriage but there is no way to prove a same sex couple is homosexual or even a couple.
Even performing homosexual acts does not mean a person is homosexual. Humans can learn to swim but that doesn't make them fish.
Unless reliable genetic markers can be recognized making new rights based entirely on a lifestyle choice would open the door to every behavioral splinter group demanding their rights as an oppressed minority.
Mid,I think your post is the
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 21:33 ET by BlondeMid,
I think your post is the absolutely "dead on" post for this issue.
Nothing more needs to be said. You framed the issue, absolutely perfectly.
Emil Steiner - that's higher than God state
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 21:59 ET by SportPoliticsWhat caught my eye was the lib Emil Steiner claiming that Dungy put the values of church above State.
Note how Steiner capitalized only State, and characterized Dungy's viewpoint not as a right bestowed by the Creator, but as a threat to that which the lib worships - Government.
Then Stiener claims the government can't act on Dungy's belief, but indeed Steiner wants the State to acton his behalf for his beliefs, or fails to note the State IS acting on Dungy's behalf currently, and that's what Steiner wants changed.
Quite deceptive. Steiner is in denial as well, or covers his current hatred for the State actually being in the position currently that supports Dungy.
I suppose that's a clue as to why the liberals currently hate the USA.
Tony Dungy...Thank You.
Wed, 03/28/2007 - 22:40 ET by bigtimerTony Dungy...
Thank You.
Winning rights by denying others' rights
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 00:51 ET by nkviking75Unfortunately, a portion of gay rights activists are trying to advance their cause by destroying people of faith who dare to stand up to them. They say the most outrageous and bigoted things they can, choosing to try to discredit the opposition rather than argue against them. Mr. Steiner, you owe Mr. Dungy an apology, and you need to develop some true tolerance.
And here I thought that con
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 01:15 ET by DirkCSAnd here I thought that conservatives were AGAINST big government.
I agree that NO group deserves special privileges, but when laws are created to deliberately abridge or impinge on a person's rights (regardless of race, sex, political affiliation, sexual preference, etc.) then our government is overstepping it's bounds.
I just don't understand how a group of people can condemn another when they treat marriage as if it were a disposable commodity, and still take themselves seriously. I have known gay couples that would make FAR better parents than many of the "traditional" couples I have known.
I also find it hard to understand a group of people that believe so strongly that "Only God shall judge me", yet continue to pass judgement on others so willingly.
Anyone that comes here and preaches intolerance and bigotry only does themself a disservice. You make yourselves look stupid.
I just don't understand how you people don't get yourselves confused with radical Muslims more often to be honest with you. Apparently unless people share your views of morality or religion, they are not entitled to the same rights the rest of us are. You people call it what you want, I call it hypocrisy. Funny that some of you are the same ones that bash Gore for not "walking the walk".
I'm sure many of you will make assumptions based on the opinions I have stated. Allow me to dispel those illusions right off:
(1) I am very conservative in my political beliefs.
(2) I am straight, happily married with kids.
Lastly, I don't understand the mentality of some Christians. Is your opinion of God so horrid that you think He wants you to live your lives judging others, fearing Him and preaching intolerance and hate? I'm sure glad I don't believe in that God.
More on topic, I think Tony Dungy has every right to think and say what he pleases. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him and recognize him for what he is; a small-minded, fascist, bigot.
Someone please explain to me the logic of the following sentiment expressed by many of you - "Everyone is entitled to the same rights that I am, as long as their religious and moral beliefs are similar to mine!"
Last I checked, this wasn't a theocracy and thank God for that!
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
I will use my rights as endow
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 02:10 ET by contraryI will use my rights as endowed to me by my government to say you are hypocrit and "a small-minded, fascist, bigot." And by God, I feel better for saying it, and gosh darn it, it feels good exercising my state-granted right of calling out people who believe different things than me and say they are "a small-minded, fascist, bigot." That is what's important here, the way I express my beliefs and all. Who are you trying to intimidate me here at this blog? What? I just don't understand the mentality of you "people." Thank God this isn't a state-granted rights establishment or I might be mistaken for a Muslim.
Not that I got that out of the way....
We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Vanna, tell our contestant what he just won.
Rosie? Is that
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 09:27 ET by MidAmericaRosie? Is that
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 09:27 ET by MidAmericaRosie? Is that you?
How are things on 'The View'?
"Is your opinion of God
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 09:40 ET by mikej"Is your opinion of God so horrid that you think He wants you to live your lives judging others, fearing Him and preaching intolerance and hate? I'm sure glad I don't believe in that God."
More on topic, I think Tony Dungy has every right to think and say what he pleases. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him and recognize him for what he is; a small-minded, fascist, bigot.
Well, as long as you aren't judging him and preaching intolerance and hate! For crying out loud, you contradicted yourself in the very next sentence. So basically what you are saying is that it is ok for you to say that someone is wrong, but not ok for them to say that you are wrong? Is that your asanine line of thinking of here. Why is judging someone wrong?
The difference is, I embrace
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 11:04 ET by DirkCSThe difference is, I embrace Tony Dungee's (and everyone else's) right to judge others. Just because I disagree with his judgment does not mean I endorse taking his right to free speech away.
"Why is judging someone wrong?"
Judging someone is not ILLEGAL (and rightfully so). However, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on someone else's opinion. My opinion is that those that advocate less rights for a group of people due to your religious or moral beliefs makes you small-minded, fascist, bigots...making your judgment wrong, IN MY OPINION (therein lies the difference). That is a right I have. You have the similar right to disagree with me. Ain't the Constitution grand?
One more time, I have no problem with people judging Tony, or gays or martians or anything else, that is their right under the 1st amendment. What I have a problem with is people advocating the abridgement of others rights based on moral or religious beliefs.
Again, this is NOT a theocracy.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
"What I have a problem w
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 11:27 ET by Spoon"What I have a problem with is people advocating the abridgement of others rights based on moral or religious beliefs."
What right would that be? No one is abridging a man's right to marry a woman, or a woman's right to marry a man. You want to change marriage to say 'two people' rather than a man and a woman. Why two? Why not three? Why people? How about horses, dogs, and '57 Chevy's?
I'm not religious, but I am moral. If you think our rights are not based on moral beliefs, you are a sad person. It is morally wrong to kill except in defense of self or others, or to steal, or to rape, etc. In fact, the morals of a society are the predominant factor in nearly all it's laws. (The exceptions being ordinaces like what color you can paint your house, or how many pink flamingoes you can have on your lawn)
A civil union is a contract between two adults. Feel free to sign any contract you like. But marriage (while I may believe the government should never have stuck it's fingers in it in the first place) is defined as a man and a woman. These laws to protect that definition are not a slam at homosexuals, but a measure against activist judges who would use thier own views to change our society.
somewhat graphic sense of it:
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 13:19 ET by tumbler_2007As marriage exists between a man and a woman, there's an iron-clad proof. Without it, there is no valid marriage.
That proof is the marital act. No valid marriage has taken place until the marital act consummates it. Vows are not proof of a valid ,arriage, nor is it rings, a wedding, or a preacher.
Because, if one spouse wants an anullment, it only needs for him-her to state there wan't a consummation. No marital act. That is grounds for anullment. NO valid marriage exists under canon law or even common. And, far as we know, no marital act takes place between male gays or between lesbians. No sperm meets egg-- SO, Fah getta boutit !
Tumbler,What do you not under
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 13:38 ET by DirkCSTumbler,
What do you not understand about "This is not a theocracy"? Stop preaching.
Look, we as a society have to determine what is right or wrong. Once we have done so, we create laws against the things we deem "wrong". The ONLY PROOF that same-sex marriage is wrong, is religious-based morality. I state once again, this is not a theocracy.
Technically, I did not have to apply for a marriage license when my wife and I got married. Legally, however, I had to do so to ensure our rights as husband and wife.
"No sperm meets egg..."
By that logic, unless a man and woman plan on procreating, they should not be allowed to marry. In fact, if a man and woman don't procreate within a pre-determined time, the government should go ahead and annul that marriage as there is NO proof the marriage has been consummated, right? Hell, by that logic, men and women that are biologically incapable of procreation, should not be allowed to marry, right?
Provide me with an unbiased, logical argument that proves same-sex marriage should not be allowed.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Please, DirkCS--wake up
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 13:53 ET by tumbler_2007I know this isn't a theocracy, and I'm not pushing for one.
Marriage is not cohabitation, either. It's the licit union of two spouses. The male and female. In a theocracy, the union would be religious as well as civil. In totally secular societies, simply legal, but nevertheless between male and female spouses.
Since gays and lesbians cohabit, there's no need for a marriage, which involves the marital act. They are free to love one another & cohabit, aren't they?
But can they truthfully perform a marital act without the consummation? No-- they can feel love, an honest commitment, all of that, but without marriage. No marital act, just kisses and lots of stimulation. That's not the marital act exclusive to a man with a woman. Hence, not a marriage at all. Only an arrangement. ---
Now; rather than appearing to sandbag you, or pontificate, I'll let you respond to my honestly, impartially stated premise. You may rebut what I say here if you like. I may or may not reply.
Tumbler,"Since gays and
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:29 ET by DirkCSTumbler,
"Since gays and lesbians cohabit, there's no need for a marriage..."
From a religious viewpoint, a marriage is created by taking oaths before God. Doing so allows you to:
Cohabit, have sex and procreate with your partner all within the laws of the church.
From a legal standpoint, a marriage is created by signing a marriage license. Doing so allows you to:
Many of these rights do NOT apply to same-sex marriages, domestic partnerships or civil unions.
You ask why same-sex marriage should be recognized lawfully? Because, without taking religious morality into consideration, same-sex couples deserve these rights the same as any other person living in the United States of America.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
weak argument, Dirk
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:48 ET by RJThat's a weak argument, Dirk. Civil Unions already give same sex couples many, if not most, of those "rights". Instead of focusing on "marriage", the same effort should be put into into adding the other items to civil Unions.
RJ,I missed this one earlie
Fri, 03/30/2007 - 00:08 ET by DirkCSRJ,
I missed this one earlier. Civil unions, either those of same-sex or heterosexual couples do enjoy a number of the legal rights that a civil marriage grants. I have stated in other posts some of the discrepancies, but not nearly all of them.
I am in no way an active supporter of "gay rights" (maybe it's naive, but I consider myself an "equal rights for those deserving" advocate) so I have no say what-so-ever in their plan to secure those rights. Perhaps you are correct and it is the privileges granted those in a civil union that needs to be addressed.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
All you need is a contract
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:10 ET by tumbler_2007There is NO marriage between same-sex lovers. Only an arrangement. You merely need a lawyer to write a legal contract covering any aspect of your civil union/agreement which you feel has been denied you as citizens. --NOT as spouses, as legally committed citizens.
Whereas, to be truly married; two in one flesh in the eyes of society (and God as well) one must be a single man, the other a single bride, the female of our SPECIES ! There is no gay species, Dirk. Nor gay marriage; and I know that would be of great benefit to gays/lesbians. Lending them that aura of social respectability they so desperately crave. But we have our indisputable, renewable species preserved in perpetuity by DNA, and it's biologically exclusive to a man and a woman brought together.
That does not deny a homosexual his own participation in society without marriage. You just have to face it. Good lawyers can help you and even comfort you. The rest is all up to you. (I'm ostensibly speaking to a gay couple, not to Dirk personally.)
I agree that many of our righ
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 13:22 ET by DirkCSI agree that many of our rights are based on morals.
If you truly equate two gay people getting married to murder, rape and theft, you are the sad person.
The ONLY argument against a gay couple having the same rights as a straight couple is religious-based morality.
Again I state, this is not a theocracy.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk...You are wrong!It's not
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 13:29 ET by Clear thinkerDirk...
You are wrong!
It's not just a religious-based morality, it is morality, period! You do not have to be a religious person to understand that gay sexual activity is immoral.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
CT,Fine, taking religion comp
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:01 ET by DirkCSCT,
Fine, taking religion completely out of the picture:
How is it wrong? Who does it hurt?
Divorce is wrong because it can severely hurt children involved. Should we make laws against that?
Consuming alcohol is one of the most detrimental things you can do to your body. Not to mention the children, spouses, etc., harmed by alcoholism. Should we make laws against that?
Smoking cigarettes is tantamount to suicide. Not to mention the second-hand smoke children living in those homes are exposed to. Should we make laws against that? We're certainly headed in that direction. While I'm not a smoker and abhor the smell of it, I do not support laws against it.
Where is the victim in consensual gay sex? The three aforementioned things all have "victims" yet we do not outlaw them. Why not?
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Maybe you did not understand
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:08 ET by Clear thinkerMaybe you did not understand what I wrote.
Sex between same sex partners is immoral. They can do it in the privacy of their own home, but that in no way makes it suddenly moral.
When you can show me that any guy-on-guy, or gal-on-gal action will result in a pregnancy, then you will have my attention.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
CT,Read my response to MB bel
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:43 ET by DirkCSCT,
Read my response to MB below.
Your personal morals should NOT dictate mine and they CERTAINLY should not be the basis for abridging another's legal rights. That is some very liberal thinking.
Radical Muslims have distorted their faith to say that all non-Muslims should be converted or killed. Your argument, while not as extreme, is more similar than you would probably like to admit.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk...I repeat...When you ca
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:51 ET by Clear thinkerDirk...
I repeat...
When you can show me that any guy-on-guy, or gal-on-gal action will result in a pregnancy, then you will have my attention.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
CT,Last try...By your logic,
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:03 ET by DirkCSCT,
Last try...
By your logic, if a man and woman do not procreate, they should not be allowed to marry and therefore should not enjoy the same legal rights the rest of us do. Or those that are biologically incapable of procreation should not be allowed to marry and therefore should not enjoy the same legal rights granted us by marriage.
Your "logic" is derived from your personal beliefs. Your personal beliefs should NOT dicate:
Spouting personal biases and bigotries does not make an argument (it makes you look stupid). If you can not provide me with a logical, unbiased argument, I won't bother discussing the issue with you any further.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk...You just won't pay att
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:19 ET by Clear thinkerDirk...
You just won't pay attention to what I'm saying will you?
This is it, so pay attention. The main reason for male and female sex is to procreate. Biological and/or religious reasons will not allow same sex encounters to procreate. It is simply the design of nature and nothing you can say or do will change that. Even marriage can't change this.
As for personal morality, I have higher standards than you!
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
"Radical" muslims h
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:53 ET by mastersofdeceit"Radical" muslims haven't distorted anything.
Fight unbelievers until they convert or submit.
Until Islam is dominant in the world.
CT,Read my response to MB bel
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:43 ET by DirkCSDouble post.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
dirk
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:29 ET by misterbillDirk, I am not going to post links to prove the following, but:
"Divorce is wrong because it can severely hurt children involved."
True, but sometimes , couples staying together inflict far more harm on their children.
Consuming alcohol in small amounts is beneficial to us.
"Smoking cigarettes is tantamount to suicide. Not to mention the second-hand smoke children living in those homes are exposed to. Should we make laws against that? "
I live in GA. We have many laws that regulate where people can smoke and if they are allowed to smoke. And incidentally--I am not a smoker--but a careful study of the WHO findings , which are in the WHO report but not n the MSM report blows a giant hole in the SHS theory. I do not doubt that SHS is harmful but not in the "scare" way in which we have been informed.
"Where is the victim in consensual gay sex?" In a legal worldly legal sense, there is no victim.
To go directly to your premise, except for the children of divorced parents, there is no victim in three of the four example above. (And divorce depends upon each situation). People make themselves victims. Would you prevent me from enjoying a glass of wine because there are alcoholics in the world?? And on and on.
I am not challenging your position on homosexuality in this post. I am challenging your logic.
Please notice I have said nothing negative re: homosexuality in this post.
MB,"Would you prevent me
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:38 ET by DirkCSMB,
"Would you prevent me from enjoying a glass of wine because there are alcoholics in the world??"
Case and point! Thank you.
My personal belief that divorce, smoking or consuming aclohol is unhealthy and can negatively effect others, is 100% irrelevant to whether or not they should be legal.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Apparently I am deficient in logic
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:55 ET by misterbillApparently I am deficient in logic---my case in point is that the sale of alcohol is indeed regulated. One must be of a certain age. It is a crime to sell to underage. Also, any bartender or liquor store salesperson is obliged , by LAW, to NOT sell to an inebriated person. Therefore all of the above are REGULATED by law. Some laws say you can do something BUT this how. Some laws say you cannot do something or you break the law. The whole purpose was to illustrate that your comparisons are weak if you want to win your argument. If you can't see tha oh well!
Now while I did not denigrate homosexuality, I confess, I am a conservative. I support homosexuals in a desire to have a UNION. Call it corny, but the word marriage has a traditional special use to me.
Where ’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land?
Sir Walter Scott
MB,The arguments against same
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:10 ET by DirkCSMB,
The arguments against same-sex marriage that have thus far been put forth are, in my opinion, unfairly biased and illogical.
Therefore, I presented an equally unfairly biased and illogical argument to make a point.
You are correct in your statement that the logic in the post you are referring to would not win a debate. But I did it with the aforementioned purpose in mind.
"Call it corny, but the word marriage has a traditional special use to me."
Fair enough. However, unless an alternate, similarly efficient means is adopted to grant same-sex marriages the same legal rights the rest of us enjoy, it is my opinion that the federal government should recognize them.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk, I fail to see why the f
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:36 ET by bassndudeDirk, I fail to see why the federal goverment should recognize anything that is not left to the jurisdiction of the federal goverment by the Constitution. Marriage, by defination is between a man and a woman, or in older times, women. Persons of the opposit sex. The question of recognized gay union, marriage et. al. relationship, is a question not specified by the Constitution to the purview of the federal goverment. That said, it is a State question, and the individual States have jurisdiction.
It is not a question of federal recognition, it is a question of States Rights.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
While in an ideal world, I'
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:47 ET by sarcasmoWhile in an ideal world, I'd agree, in reality it's all about worship of huge federal government, and has little to do with church anymore, much less the various states. Hmm. But if you're trying to be funny, good one. :) It worked on me...
JMR
sarc...nope, not being funny.
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:58 ET by bassndudesarc...nope, not being funny. I am a Constitutionalist at heart. The duty of the federal goverment is spelled out in the Constitution. Every thing not reserved in the Constitution for the federal goverment is an issue for the individual states. "Congress shall make no law...." is a good start. That is why I am in favor of a repeal of the gun control act of 1968 and any and all sence or before. If a state is a state, and a majority of the people do not wish to recognize same sex union or whatever you want to call it, so be it. If the state wants to recognize it, so be it. Reguardless of the reasons behind the decision. The federal goverment has their fingers in to much pudding out here, and we dont need to encourage it any farther.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
hmm. Then we agree way more
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 16:02 ET by sarcasmohmm. Then we agree way more than I'd previously imagined. Unlucky you. Tax policy is so far intertwined in marriage that a separation of marriage and state is unlikely to be possible in our lifetimes, IMO. I wish others, especially all the non-Thomas Supreme Court Justices, would think about states' rights for a change...
JMR
Thanks, Bass
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 16:14 ET by RJThank you, Bass, for bringing the argument back where it belongs. The gay marriage advocates deliberately reframe the argument, and we get caught up in the less important aspects.
No problem RJ. Things like th
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 16:23 ET by bassndudeNo problem RJ. Things like that do not belong in the federal arena. For my money, the feds have their fingers in things where they do not belong. One reason taxes are so high today, and the budget is trillions of dollars.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Amen, sarc...I do agree. What
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 16:15 ET by bassndudeAmen, sarc...I do agree. What we need is another Thomas Jefferson for President.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass,First, thank you for pro
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 17:33 ET by DirkCSBass,
First, thank you for providing a clear, concise, logical argument.
The question now becomes, if the law, by definition (e.g. marriage is between a man and a woman), deprives a group of people of the legal rights enjoyed by the rest of the citizens of this country, should it not be addressed?
Now, when those rights in question, are rights granted by the federal government (tax benefits, social security benefits, medicare, etc.), then it is a federal matter, isn't it?
Ideally, it should be a state matter. Unfortunately, our federal government has far overstepped it's bounds and has involved itself.
So, I ask in earnest, pretending you agree that same-sex marriages deserve the same legal rights that heterosexual marriages enjoy (tax benefits, social security benefits, medicare, etc.), how would you fix it?
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk, the law dosent deprive
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 17:52 ET by bassndudeDirk, the law dosent deprive the group to cohabit. The marriage tax is a diffrent question. However, that being a point, same sex cannot reproduce. It can be argued that they then cannot meet the requirements for marriage rights, according to the defination of marriage. They are eligable for medicare, social security. Their own, as I am. The tax benefits are debatable. But I would pose to you, that the marriage penality should be shared. If only one party works, then the benefit of dependant is avaliable. Same for me and my wife. They are not hounded and hunted. And I for one do not see them as equals. There is criteria that they cannot meet. Reproduction is one and the foremost. If everyone was "gay", where would you be today? The answer is, you wouldent. Neither would I.
So in answer to your question, I would fix it when the two of them could procreate without outside help. And I am not going to get into the discussion of sterile women or men. That is another question altogether.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass,"The law dosent dep
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 18:37 ET by DirkCSBass,
"The law dosent deprive the group to cohabit."
"If everyone was 'gay', where would you be today? The answer is you wouldent. Neither would I."
Correct, but immaterial to this argument.
"They are eligable for medicare, social security."
Correct, but they are not eligible for those benefits as it pertains to a "legal marriage". I'm guessing your argument is that they do not deserve those rights due to the following quote:
"However, that being a point, same sex cannot reproduce. It can be argued that htey then cannot meet the requirements for marriage rights..."
Now, you say that the discussion of sterile men and women is an entirely different subject, but it isn't. If your definition of someone that deserves the legal (federal and state) benefits of marriage is someone who is able to procreate, than how do you exclude men and women who are biologically unable to create life? Or those that simply exercise the choice not to (via birth control or sterilization)?
You cannot deny same-sex couples those rights solely based on their inability to procreate if you are granting those same rights to heterosexual couples that either can not or do not.
Logically, it just doesn't make sense. Again, I assert that the ONLY reason for denying same-sex couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples is religous-based morality. That is not sufficient reason. If this were a theocracy, it would be and I don't doubt for one second that 99.99% of the people here are wholeheartedly against that.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
what is wrong with "civil union"?
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 19:01 ET by misterbillwhat is wrong with "civil union"? Perhaps I do not understand it (civil union), but I thought it did grant "partner rights" to homosexual unions.
Where ’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land?
Sir Walter Scott
MB,Civil unions do grant so
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 23:31 ET by DirkCSMB,
Civil unions do grant some of the same legal rights as civil marriages. Only SOME though.
A few that are not granted off the top of my head are, Social Security survivor benefits, the right to take leave from work to care for a "partner" and the ability to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes. There are more.
Also, as I mentioned before, the federal government doesn't respect (or recognize) civil unions. Therefore, the tax benefits permitted civil marriages, do not apply to civil unions. This holds true whether the civil union is same-sex or a heterosexual couple.
Further complicating matters is that civil unions are treated differently from state to state. This can cause many issues, one of which is ending said civil union.
That's why, in other posts, I have emphasised the need for (in my opinion anyway) "an alternate, similarly efficient means" by which same-sex couples can enjoy the same rights as the rest of us.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Dirk you obviously missed mrbills point
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:06 ET by RJDirk, you obviously missed mrbill's attempt to point out the illogic of your post. You tried to frame the question in terms of victimhood by equating gay marriage to divorce, alcohol and smoking, which is a patently illogical leap. Heck, you might as well have equated it to the illegal use of drugs, or the immorality of running a stop sign, for all the sense it made.
By the way, I think you meant "case IN point."
RJ,You are correct. I meant
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:15 ET by DirkCSRJ,
You are correct. I meant case IN point.
Read my most recent reply to MB in answer to your post.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
they aren't outlawed
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:31 ET by tumbler_2007Gays & lesbians are not outlawed. They already enjoy equal rights They are completely entitled to form households under civil union. Nobody is persecuting them.
They aren't married because marriage is between a male and female couple. We heteros are married and they also can be married, legally. A Lesbian can marry any single man she chooses, legally. A gay can marry any single woman (of age) he chooses. As such, they share my civil right to marry. Nobody's stopping them or fining or jailing them for living in same-sex unions, Dirk.
No one makes a crime out of this, so how do you bring "victims" into this equation?
Tumbler,"They already en
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 14:56 ET by DirkCSTumbler,
"They already enjoy equal rights."
Wrong. Check the laws. Same-sex marriages, domestic partnerships and civil unions are not recognized by the federal government. Therefore they are not entitled to many of the legal rights heterosexual unions enjoy.
The "victims" comment was directed at CT. The point I was making is that the majority of laws that are based on morals are due to the fact that the committed acts abridge, infringe upon the rights of or make a victim of another person.
Whether same-sex marriage is a crime or not is immaterial to this discussion because: (1) no one has said it is (aside from those saying it is against God's law) and (2) it is not a crime.
The issue is, same-sex couples can not enjoy the same legal rights of marriage until it is recognized by the federal government. That is an injustice.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
please Dirk, rationalize
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:21 ET by tumbler_2007"They already enjoy equal rights."
Absolutely. What you seem to demand is extaordinary rights, not equal.
A gay has the same right as I have. He chooses another, extraordinary, gay right.
Lesbians want extraordinary, not equal rights. --Now, you insist: "Wrong. Check the laws. Same-sex marriages, domestic partnerships and civil unions are not recognized by the federal government. Therefore they are not entitled to many of the legal rights heterosexual unions enjoy."
IF this is altogether arguable (I have no law degree) then instead of demanding marriage be opened up to gays, someone should be lobbying for a clause in the existing law for civil unions. Not for marriage licenses.
Tumbler,"A gay has the s
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 18:55 ET by DirkCSTumbler,
"A gay has the same right as I have. He chooses another, extraordinary, gay right."
"Lesians want extraordinary, not equal rights."
The rights are "extraordinary" as you state, due to the fact that the current law, by definition (marriage is between a man and a woman), is not equal.
Is this justified? I personally don't think so, but my opinion doesn't make it a fact.
"...then instead of demanding marriage be opened up to gays, someone should be lobbying for a clause in the existing law for civil unions."
You may be correct.
As I previously stated in response to one of MB's posts"
"However, unless an alternate, similarly efficient means is adopted to grant same-sex marriages the same legal rights the rest of us enjoy, it is my opinion that the federal government should recognize them."
I don't know if this is an avenue that they are considering or not. I suspect that they prefer the actual marriage license so as to be proven they are equal. Pride getting in the way? I don't know and as I am not in their shoes, I don't think I am in any position to judge it.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
reply to dirk
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 19:41 ET by tumbler_2007"A gay has the same right as I have. He chooses another, extraordinary, gay right."
"Lesians want extraordinary, not equal rights."
The rights are "extraordinary" as you state, due to the fact that the current law, by definition (marriage is between a man and a woman), is not equal.
Is this justified? I personally don't think so, but my opinion doesn't make it a fact.
Tumbler: -- Dear Dirk-- Who's talking about current law ? The law can be changed or circumvented. Nature is unchanging; marriage is dictated by our sexual act. Without a sperm-to-egg tranfer (marital act, ideally,) there is no species. Therein is the condition for calling it true marriage.
I realize that illicit sex is also procreation, if allowed. Or, that if a couple is infertile it would seem the marriage is at least functionaly invalid.
But not so-- These don't affect the legitimacy of marriage's nature. It is marriage because NATURE makes sexual relations between man and wife genuinely marital. Not PRETEND marriage. --The marital act consummates a marriage; while other manners of reaching orgasm cannot legitimize a "marriage" of two people who are of the same sex. Nothing is consummated or genuine. There is no natural Gay Species.
Ours is the human species, in which real marriage is truly genuine under licit circumstances between male and female specimens only.
What I am about to say is rep
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 15:35 ET by InsufficientContextWhat I am about to say is repulsive, and I in no way mean to imply that you condone it.
Where is the victim in consensual gay sex? Where is the victim in child pornography? If a man takes nude pictures of a child in provocative positions, but does not molest or in otherways touch the child, how is the child a victim?
In keeping with this theme(sorry, everyone), how is it that a person can be born with a sexual attraction towards the same sex, but not towards children? Why is it that one is a choice and the other is not?
In my mind, that is the crux of the matter. If homosexuality is a choice, and it does not directly harm anyone other than the participants, a case can be made for civil unions and possibly marriage(choice of the church?). It being a choice however, would mean that individuals and society can exercise moral judgements against it just as they do with alcoholics, adulterers, etc.
Keep in mind that there is absolutely no definitive evidence supporting a biological basis for homosexuality.
IC,The first problem I see
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 23:58 ET by DirkCSIC,
The first problem I see with your argument is that you are equating homosexuality with pedofilia.
The second problem with the argument is that children can not fend for themselves. A child has no say in whether the pictures are taken or not. A child has no say in whether the pictures are distributed or not. The comparison, while a genuine attempt to make a valid argument, doesn't hold up in my opinion.
I have an honest (rhetorical please) question for you and anyone else.
How many of you are married? How many of you have been or are in love? Did you see that woman and say, "I will marry her", or did those feelings develop over the course of time?
I agree that people have every right to exercise moral judgment on homosexuals. As much as I disagree with the opinions of those that would, I would (and have) put my life on the line to defend their right to free speech. I did NOT, however, put my life on the line so people's rights can be taken away based on religious morality. That is the difference as I see it. Condemn them to hell, curse their existence, don't allow them in your homes...I don't begrudge or judge anyone for doing so...but don't deny them the same rights you have based on YOUR religious moral opinions or romantic notions of what the definition of "marriage" should be.
I have another question for the religious people here that condemn homosexuality. What do you say about the fact that homosexuality and bi-sexuality occurs in many different forms of life on this planet? I'm not attempting to use it as a point to make my case, I'm genuinely curious and have never asked before.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
homosexuality in animals ?
Fri, 03/30/2007 - 01:06 ET by tumbler_2007Dirk:
We don' t have to judge why or in whatever manner animals carry out their natural urges. My little dog copulates on his blankets. At first my good wife was shocked. It didn't seem correct to her.
But as I explained to her;-- animals are not under any law of shame or compunctions. They are by definition innocent of wrongdoing as God created them. They shouldn't be held to the higher standards of human beings who are endowed with a conscience and a soul. OTOH; we all know, many human beings in this age choose to stoop lower than any animal. It's appalling but true. Why? Because, unlike animals, we are given free will by our Creator. We pick and choose our moral standards.
Animals are created more mechanical. Animals do what chemistry demands. They cannot bar what chemistry forces upon them. Chemistry is powerful, Dirk. But human beings are greater than mere chemistry. They have power over chemistry and over life itself.
Is this over your head, Dirk? OK, try to see:
Human beings are an infinitely higher creation in God's eyes. He made them practically divine. You and me. We could not BE this higher creation, Dirk-- if God hadn't made us higher to start with. You might doubt the existence of God. But why do you persist in doubting the most marvelous work of His hands? YOU, ME, US --? Unless you're blind to your own body and soul.
So now you do agree that &quo
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 17:00 ET by SpoonSo now you do agree that "many of our rights are based on morals." but before you said "What I have a problem with is people advocating the abridgement of others rights based on moral or religious beliefs." [Bold mine] Which is it? We can't have laws based on the morals of others, or we can?
Consistency, not one of his
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 17:21 ET by contraryConsistency, not one of his strong points.
It has nothing to do with bei
Thu, 03/29/2007 - 17:46 ET by DirkCSIt has nothing to do with being consistent and everything to do with being realistic.
The major flaw in my original argument is that I left it open to people who would compare same-sex marriage to murder, rape, theft, etc. In my opinion, those people are idiots.
The first error was mine. I should have specified that I was referring, in particular, to "religious-based" morals.
The second problem was someone (disingenuously might I add), asserting that my argument was that morals of ANY KIND can not dictate laws. Again, I will take the blame as I consider it common sense that many of our laws are based on morals.
Speaking of consistency...let's let our religious morality decide who deserves to enjoy certain rights and who doesn't. That mentality is about as liberal as it comes in my opinion.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Indiana Tony
Thu, 04/05/2007 - 11:14 ET by icelandicfarmerI'm a big fan of Tony. His speeches at the Christian Athletes in Action breakfasts on Super Bowl weekend are something to watch. I just wanted to point out that the marriage protection bill was in Indiana, not Illinois, as stating in your blog article. This started by Tony speaking to a pro-family group in Indianapolis. To my knowledge he has no ties to Illinois.