On the March 14 edition of "Imus in the Morning" guest and "60 Minutes" commentator Andy Rooney discussed the possibility of a draft with Don Imus. In that exchange Rooney, like Senator Kerry and Congressman Rangel, implied that those who volunteer to serve do so out of desperation rather than patriotism.
DON IMUS: Tell me about your thoughts on re-instituting the draft.
ANDY ROONEY: Well, I think a draft produces a better army than the one we would have with all volunteers. Because I think you get average Americans if you, if you have a draft. And if it’s an all volunteer army, you get people who join up because of some problem in their own lives. They don’t have anything else to do, they don’t have a job, or they can’t find what they want to do, so they join the Army. And it doesn’t produce the best army.
Rooney should have checked over his facts before making such a statement. This recent study directly contradicts his assertions.
Comments Policy
Rooney is SENILE! Don't li
March 14, 2007 - 15:46 ET by MightyMouthRooney is SENILE! Don't listen to him. But here is some advice Andy, get ready for the backlash!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
My dad served in WWII, Korea,
March 14, 2007 - 15:51 ET by ThisnThatMy dad served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I was in the Air Force. My father-in-law was wounded at the Battle of the Bulge. My son is currently serving in IRAQ.
If Mr. Rooney or any of his MSM friends wants to discuss "producing the best army" with me in a dark alley sometime, I would welcome the opportunity.
Otherwise, Mr. Rooney and the rest of you sons of bitches, SHUT UP.
There. I feel better already. And I'm ready for my offensive post to be deleted.
I stand with you!
March 14, 2007 - 16:00 ET by misterbillI stand with you! It is sad to see Andy Rooney in his latest antics about the military and the government. I used to read him un the Starts and Stripes that my brother sent home during WW2. I don't remember him being anything but a good reporter. Alas!
Andy Rooney
March 14, 2007 - 17:52 ET by rapubakinYou want to beat up an 87 year old WWII hero?
Rooney attended The Albany Academy in Albany, New York, and later attended Colgate University in Hamilton in upstate New York, where he was initiated into the Sigma Chi fraternity, until he was drafted into the Army in August 1941. He began his career in newspapers there, writing for Stars and Stripes in the European Theater during World War II. He later published a memoir, My War
(1997) about this war reporting. In addition to recounting firsthand
several notable historical events and people (like the entry into
Paris, the concentration camps, etc), Rooney describes how it shaped
his experience both as a writer and reporter.
In February 1943, flying with the Eighth Air Force, he was one of six correspondents who flew on the first American bombing raid over Germany. Later, he was one of the first American journalists to visit the German concentration camps as World War II wound down, and one of the first to write about them
We thank Andy Rooney for his service.
March 14, 2007 - 17:57 ET by Free StinkerWe thank Andy Rooney for his service.
Now he needs to shut up!
.
Benedict Arnold was a hero before he was a traitor.
"War hero"!? Surely
March 14, 2007 - 18:03 ET by Mean Gene Dr. Love"War hero"!? Surely, you jest. I really hope you're being facetious.
Audie Murphy was a war hero. The 3rd, 4th and 5th Divisions of the V Amphibious Corps (USMC) that took and held Iwo Jima were war heroes. The young men that landed at Normandy were war heroes. Andy Rooney was an Army news reporter.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Benedict armold was originall
March 14, 2007 - 20:38 ET by BDBenedict armold was originally considred to be a hero as well.
Does service automatically grant a higher level of credibility in an argument? In that case there are several members present with 5 times the length of service in three times the wars than Rooney. Do they get a greater "Credibility" rating from our friend Rapubakin?
Benedict Arnold was a great h
March 15, 2007 - 08:05 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveBenedict Arnold was a great hero and an asset to our young nation until he succumbed to his selfish desires and betrayed the Continental Army.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Rooney is old, senile and w
March 15, 2007 - 08:05 ET by MightyMouthRooney is old, senile and waaay past his prime. That's not beating up. That's being realistic. Looking at the effort that was put into your post I would say you have some affinity with the old coot. It doesn't matter if a person is distinguised like Rooney, if he spouts nonsense, it is still nonsence and he should be called on it.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The draft produces a better A
March 14, 2007 - 16:05 ET by dscottThe draft produces a better Army? Are you daft Rooney? Oh that's right, a better Army to produce draft dodgers and desserters so you the MSM can have someone to interview to play up the anti-war theme. I mean why in the world would the MSM want highly motived people joining the military, that just takes the wind out of low morale stories and dissention in the ranks. You see there is nothing in it for the MSM. Boring, boring, boring.
“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius
Draft
March 14, 2007 - 17:21 ET by Daniel BakerDraft produces a worse Army, but a better country. If we could draft some of these liberals they would become much better people, and actually worth listening too.
Hear, hear!
March 14, 2007 - 17:30 ET by misterbillHear, hear! I have held the same opinion for years.There are many other civic and social benefits. One other thing that would really be good--if , as a part of recruit training, an hour of American History was taught each work day.
I imagine we could improve ma
March 14, 2007 - 20:41 ET by BDI imagine we could improve many an Ivy School grad if they were inducted in the armed forces. We could probably save many of them from a life of dissolute liberalism if they make it through Basic Training.....
The Left's call for a draft i
March 14, 2007 - 16:10 ET by mattmThe Left's call for a draft is such a perfect example of their hypocrisy, it's almost too precious!
First they burned their draft cards* in protest of America's fight against tyrannical communism, and now they want to reinstitute the draft. Why? For military reasons? Obviously not; otherwise they wouldn't be calling for troop withdrawls. So what else could it be but political pot-stirring????
They know that 90% of the 1960's anti-war movement was merely people who didn't want to get drafted (which is not an illegitimate reason - btw). Now, even with all their propaganda they can't seem to generate anywhere near the same level of America-Hating activism which characterized the '60's. So, what's their answer when mere rhetoric won't work? Conscription! Government coercion!
This has nothing to do with military readiness, socio-economic fairness or any other equity issue - it's purely designed to revive the 60's protest vibe - man!
*and don't give me the bogus argument that Andy Rooney served...that was WWII - almost everybody served in one way or another.
Apparently Rooney only served
March 14, 2007 - 16:17 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveApparently Rooney only served in WWII because he was drafted--even then, he was a reporter, not a typical soldier in a combat role. I highly doubt he would have joined voluntarily.
*BTW Andy needs to get those eyebrows of his under control before they start seeking nuclear weapons like NK and Iran.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
I just cannot reconcile how t
March 14, 2007 - 16:11 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveI just cannot reconcile how the liberals can support compulsary service through a draft while being so "pro-choice" on just about everything else under the sun.
I've been in the military for 11 years now, granted there are a number of "dirtbags" that joined for reasons Rooney listed. However, I have seen some of those people turn their weaknesses into strengths and reform themselves to become assets to society. These changes in their lives probably would not have happened without the discipline of the military. I would also have to go on to say that the majority of honorable, hard-working, unselfish, reliable, and generous people I know have served several years in the military. The sacrifices associated with voluntary service bring out the best in people because of their willing service. Compulsary service usually results in resentment, especially when the individual is only complying to stay out of legal trouble.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
I would also have to go on
March 14, 2007 - 16:53 ET by motherbeltI would also have to go on to say that the majority of honorable,
hard-working, unselfish, reliable, and generous people I know have
served several years in the military.--Mean Gene Dr. Love
The people we met during my husband's 20 years in the Air Force are the best friends we have made. 20 years after he retired, we still keep in touch with many of them.
Having served in the United S
March 14, 2007 - 16:56 ET by DirkCSHaving served in the United States Marine Corps, I would first like to echo the comment that I would be happy to discuss these ideas in a dark alley any time.
Next I wonder how it is that Rooney reconciles the fact that service in the armed forces is looked so favorably upon by prospective employers with his belief that we are all losers.
In closing, Rooney can take his opinions and stick them where the sun don't shine.
Dirk
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Don't take what Rooney says p
March 14, 2007 - 17:12 ET by mattmDon't take what Rooney says personally, Sir. There is only one reason Libs like him favor a draft: to revive the protest movement atmosphere of the 60's.
All their other stated arguments are just a smokescreen.
I personnlally have a differi
March 14, 2007 - 20:46 ET by BDI personnlally have a differing theory. THe bulk of the US military serving today in combat is something like 85% conservative according to most sources.
Rooney and his clones are simply looking down the road for candidates twenty years from now when the Conservative candidate will be able to say he helped clear buildings in Fallujah, or fought on mountain sides in Afghanistan.
What will the liberal be able to say? I was a Code Pink protestor and made wounded soldiers at Walter Reed miserable with my ceaseless protesting at the gate....
Wouldn't you want to draft some of your liberal youth if you were Rooney and it was an option?
Shakespeare had it right...Th
March 14, 2007 - 20:49 ET by BDShakespeare had it right...
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put in his purse:
We would not die in that mans company,
That fears his fellowship to die with us,
While I think your suppositio
March 15, 2007 - 08:14 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveWhile I think your supposition makes a lot of sense, you've gotta look at the big picture...Liberals typically don't have much foresight. They seem to never consider the consequences (intended or unintended) of their choices and actions until it is too late. And at the rate they are going, twenty years from now anyone that claims to be a Democrat and supports or ever has supported the military will be forced out of the party.
I don't want a draft...we have enough volunteer "problem children" in the military already...and seeing some of the things these anti-war people do, I would hate to be stuck in a fox-hole with them.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Gene:Actually, seeing how the
March 15, 2007 - 19:39 ET by BDGene:
Actually, seeing how the left has been able to seize control of the press, schools, and colleges, I would assume that they have marginal abilities to plan.
It is just their loathing of the military that has hurt them in this issue.
Thanks for the service, but y
March 14, 2007 - 17:27 ET by FastEdThanks for the service, but you make the assumption that rooney would be able to find that place for the stick, considering how he speaks.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
I don't think the BEST Army/N
March 14, 2007 - 17:08 ET by JayTeeI don't think the BEST Army/Navy/Marine forces this country ever produced (WWII) needed a draft.
How does one get on TV and express opinions totally unsubstantiated by facts, and without prefacing statements with factual research, before you make the statements ? Is this a special "Journalist" club that one can only do this if they have a Journalism degree ?
We need a congressional investigation into the drive by / fly over media.
At Times like these, it becomes more than just a Moral Obligation to express ones opinion, it becomes a Pleasure.
Rooney is way beyond the reti
March 14, 2007 - 17:24 ET by FastEdRooney is way beyond the retirement age, but that is no surprise, libs don't have to follow the rules that they subject the rest us. He annoys me, is a dope, and should have retired long, long ago. Seems that C an't B e S mart, likes having people who make up stories and like to hear themselves speak.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
His statement 'if it's an all
March 14, 2007 - 17:42 ET by Clear thinkerHis statement 'if it's an all volunteer army, you get people who join up because of some problem in their own lives' has some validity...
I know people that joined because they 'had a problem' with the bastards that flew planes into the twin towers, and the pentagon.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Rooney-tunes
March 14, 2007 - 17:56 ET by Gat New YorkRegarding Andy Rooney, I agree that he either senile or just a nut. I am curious if Imus' had a retort since he enlisted in the Marine Corps.
I stopped listening to Imus since he became the shameless mouthpiece for Park-Avenue-Limousine-Liberals. He's not terribly bright and I stopped when he showed enormous disrespect to Joe Lieberman.
As usual, Andy Dufus, Kerry,
March 14, 2007 - 17:57 ET by jdhawkAs usual, Andy Dufus, Kerry, and Rangel are full of shit.
Meanwhile, we have been at the WOT for 4 years and I have yet to view a drive-by media broadcast celebrating and honoring our armed service personnel. Where are the stories of our heroes? Where are the stories of valorous exploits? Where are the stories of sacrifice, courage, and selfless service that this generation that are in this fight have earned?
F**K You Andy and all of you pieces of shit in our liberal media.
I apologize for the above foul language, but this is one topic that just pisses me off!!!
Here are the heroes in the Gl
March 14, 2007 - 18:06 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveHere are the heroes in the Global War on Terror.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Sorry to say, but the majorit
March 14, 2007 - 18:16 ET by samharmonSorry to say, but the majority of people I know who joined the military (Army, Air Force and Navy) in the last decade did so because they had nowhere else to go. A couple were in trouble with the law and were given the option by a judge to enlist or serve time in jail. Not all of them mind you! But better than 50 percent felt the military was their best option when their options were running out.
I don't subscribe to Andy Rooney's contention that a draft produces a better fighting force, but to pretend everyone in the armed forces enlisted due to overwhelming patriotism is just not true.
sam,What bloody decade is it
March 14, 2007 - 18:21 ET by Blondesam,
What bloody decade is it to which you refer?
Perhaps the late 70's?
Try posting your tripe to someone who doesn't know any better, you smelly hippy troll.
The judge/jail thing hasn't been pertinent in a very long while.
Try again.
blonde unfortunately
March 14, 2007 - 18:36 ET by misterbillblonde unfortunately for Sam, he didn't grow up in Mr Rogers neighborhood. When I was a young lad, the draft was still in effect. Many of us joined shortly after High school. The college attendance rate was much less then. Our attitude was--we have to go, why not enlist and try to get into a job type that we can use when we get out. It worked for me. I also am still proud that I gave 4 years to Uncle Sam. I met a whole lot of great guys while I was in. Sorry Sam, I don't buy it.
Quite so, misterbill.And your
March 14, 2007 - 18:39 ET by BlondeQuite so, misterbill.
And your words say it all...you are proud that you gave 4 years to Uncle Sam. Thank you.
Sam is just a new troll....dropping little scats all over the threads.
The great Ronald Reagen eliminated the need for "jail or join".
This guy is a twit, pure and simple.
Must say it again, mb....glad you're back here, friend.
Mid- to late-90s.The majority
March 14, 2007 - 18:46 ET by samharmonMid- to late-90s.
The majority of the peple to whom I'm referring were out of the military before 2001 (some later) and all of them are still under the age of 35. I should add that every one of them who received honorable discharges were contacted by their respective branches and offered perks to re-enlist in the months following the 2001 terrorist attacks. I suppose why some of them got into the military didn't matter if they served honorably while they were there.
FYI, to a man, none of them re-enlisted.
Nice story, Sam. Not buying
March 14, 2007 - 18:51 ET by BlondeNice story, Sam. Not buying it, at all.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Sc
March 14, 2007 - 19:10 ET by samharmonSorry, but you're wrong. Scroll down for more details.
Being that re-enlistment is a
March 14, 2007 - 20:58 ET by BDBeing that re-enlistment is at an all time high, I doubt this.
I have not had a single Army E-4 and above turn down re-enlistment in several years.
I have had one Air Force E-4 turn it down, but she immediately became a GS employee analyst because the pay was significantly better.
Just this week I've had two
March 15, 2007 - 08:20 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveJust this week I've had two E-5s and one E-4 come through my office to out-process for separation because the USAF's "Force Shaping" each of these airmen were pretty upset because they didn't want to get out. We can thank our Congress for their drastic budget cuts for this. Fortunately, these airmen all took advantage of the MGIB and so they will have money for college. On the whole, I have seen more airmen chose to re-enlist than I have that chose to get out.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Concur....
March 15, 2007 - 19:41 ET by BDConcur....
Maybe they didn't reenlist
March 14, 2007 - 23:03 ET by Ken ShepherdMaybe they didn't reenlist because the training they received in the military gave them a leg up for more lucrative civilian careers. Fair enough, they signed on for a term of enlisted service and did their duty. They had no obligation to re-enlist.
But that said, the all-volunteer model puts a premium on paying, training, educating, and retaining military personnel that want to be in the military and deserve to be well paid for their sacrifices and potential for having to give the ultimate sacrifice.
Why on earth would you think a draft, which puts a premium on quick, rudimentary training and churning through high turnover in personnel, is a better model for national defense for a country of our size and presence on the world stage?
I'll tell you why I think a
March 15, 2007 - 08:31 ET by sarcasmoI'll tell you why I think a draft is becoming discussed again: Its greatest intellectual enemy, Milton Friedman, recently passed away. The control-freaks -- correctly -- consider that 'an opening.' They're still just as wrong on the issue as they've ever been, but it's hard to blame them for this recent effort when you consider the fact that he's been intellectually-spanking them over the past few decades and he's finally-gone. :(
JMR
Army
March 14, 2007 - 19:04 ET by rapubakinBlonde,
Some of the Army's stick requirements:
a.
If you are still in High School, are a
High School Graduate, or have a GED AND 15 credit hours of college, then you
will require a waiver (special permission) if you have:
1) Received 1
conviction or adverse disposition for one of the following listed serious
offenses:
(a)
Carry of weapon on school ground
regardless of disposition when imposed by court or school officials (i.e.
expelled, suspended, fined).
(b) Possession
of marijuana on school grounds regardless of disposition when imposed by court
or school officials (i.e. expelled, suspended, fined).
Solicitation for/and/or prostitution
http://www.us-army-i...
Please list the results of re
March 14, 2007 - 21:00 ET by BDPlease list the results of request for waiver.
I know many recruiters who remark that it is VERY difficult to get a waiver and drove them to distraction since it caused them to fail mission on occasion.
"Sorry to say, but the
March 14, 2007 - 18:40 ET by ckc1227"Sorry to say, but the majority of people I know who joined the military (Army, Air Force and Navy) in the last decade did so because they had nowhere else to go. A couple were in trouble with the law and were given the option by a judge to enlist or serve time in jail. Not all of them mind you! But better than 50 percent felt the military was their best option when their options were running out."
So, 2 out of the 3 people you know who joined the military did so because their only other option was jail time? That settles it for me then. Rooney is right.
"but to pretend everyone in the armed forces enlisted due to overwhelming patriotism is just not true."
I don't think anyone here said it was true. Only a Sith(or a lib) deals in absolutes. We try not to do that around here.
Reminder: Don't forget to pay your taxes. 12 million illegal immigrants are counting on you.
Hey ckc,Love your new tag lin
March 14, 2007 - 18:53 ET by BlondeHey ckc,
Love your new tag line there, fella!
Prepare to duck, tho....illegal immigrant apologist attack soon to follow every time you post. :D
The number of people I know w
March 14, 2007 - 19:04 ET by samharmonThe number of people I know who served is much closer to 20-30. (If you don't mind my including Vietnam vets and friends of my parents who served in the 70s and 80s, that is. One of them actually served in the Pentagon as an aide to the Secretary of Defense for about a dozen years. In fact, he still speaks quite highly of Vice President Cheney and his wife.)
I can tell you three of them enlisted within the last decade because a judge said jail or the military. Two of them were popped for repeated DUI's and another for assaults and other crimes (though not drugs). The assaulter wound up going AWOL, served time in the brig and was dishonorably discharged from the Navy in 2000.
President Reagan did away with the "jail or military" thing on paper, but it still happens. It's just done very quietly and it's never entered into the court transcripts.
I forgot to add that the two
March 14, 2007 - 19:15 ET by samharmonI forgot to add that the two DUI guys did their four years and were honorably discharged--one from the Army and one from the Navy. The Naval vet was actually a bosun's mate on either the Grasp or the Grapple (I can't remember which) when they were called in to recover wreckage and bodies from the TWA Flight 800 crash. He says he still has nightmares about what he saw.
Bull, Sam
March 14, 2007 - 19:23 ET by RJThis reads like a load of barroom bull, Sam. You talk like an outsider who knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy......
Nope. I'm just relaying my
March 14, 2007 - 19:29 ET by samharmonNope. I'm just relaying my personal experiences.
I was boozing this past Saturday with the former aide to the Secretary of Defense (one of three people I know who served in the Pentagon).
The guy who helped with the TWA 800 recovery has been my best friend since kindergarten. He still hates the judge who told him enlist or else, but it's all good now. He got straightened out in the Navy, went back to school, got married and just started a career as a teacher.
Like I said, Sam
March 14, 2007 - 19:40 ET by RJLike I said, you're probably a non-military outsider with stories you pick up in barrooms.
Nah. I'm just a guy lucky
March 14, 2007 - 19:48 ET by samharmonNah. I'm just a guy lucky enough to never have been put in a position where the military was my last choice, unlike a couple of my friends.
"a couple of my friends"
March 14, 2007 - 20:00 ET by RJ"a couple of my friends" Well, that's better, and a change from your apparent earlier position that a significant percentage had the military as their last choice. There's a lot of vets on this board who would be happy to join me in educating you if you persisted in pushing that fallacy.
P.S. Personally, I think it's a great alternative in certain situations. One of my brothers was one of those who a judge put into the military, but he's the only one I know personally after many, many years of military and military family experience.
"A couple of my friends&
March 14, 2007 - 21:06 ET by samharmon"A couple of my friends" (three, actually) were given an enlist-or-else choice.
I stand by my post that the majority of the people I know who enlisted (20-plus) did it because they were kind of meandering through life and didn't really know what else to do. They saw the military as their last-best choice. Some enjoyed their service; many more hated it. Most of them are doing very well today, thank goodness.
I'll bet that there are quite a few of you who post here who know people who enlisted because they didn't really know what else to do with their lives.
RJ, you're the one with "many, many years of military and military family experience(s)." Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What's your point, Sam?
March 15, 2007 - 08:05 ET by RJWhat's your point? The military is valuable for providing focus to some, to others it isn't. Some people like the military, some don't. Some like working in cubicles, some don't. You're probably not even aware of it, but you talk like a socialist elite who wants everyone to fit into YOUR vision of a good career.
You have limited, slanted knowledge of the military experience, but you began posting as if you had wide-ranging knowledge. Many of us immediately saw through that and exposed you as a hanger-on who knows a few guys who know a few guys. You obviously hang out with a group who mostly see the military as being for losers who have no other choice. It's clear that your mind is closed and no one is going to change it, so why not move on to a subject you know something about?
So, Samharmon, there's a problem with the military as work?
March 15, 2007 - 08:14 ET by acaiguanaSo, Samharmon, there's a problem with the military as work?
All the Liberals have spent trillions of tax dollars on Job Corps programs; CETA (Department of Labor) Programs; Private Industry Council (PIC) programs; job training programs; education subsidies (most don't complete); subsidized Union Apprenticeship Programs; etc. etc. etc.
And what do they have to show for it? They can't point to any successful return on the dollar spent number that makes any sense at all.
So, according you your logic as I read your post, it is not a good thing that young men have the military as an option of choice. You'd rather do what?
Draft them?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Drafts only make sense when you hate an Administration that you want to destroy and need college campus riots to get the job done properly.
That's why we cannot trust Democrats in the White House or to be in control of National Security. The blood of millions of innocents are on the hands of the Democrats as per Vietnam.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
Sounds like you need to find
March 15, 2007 - 08:32 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveSounds like you need to find a higher caliber of friends.
I have been around the military all my life (35 years) and I have been in the military for 11 years. I have worked with hundreds of people and supervised scores of people...to my knowledge not a single one of them were coerced to join the military.
I'm not saying that you don't know three people that had to "enlist-or-else". All I'm saying is maybe you need to start hanging out with a higher class of people.
And one could do worse than enlisting because they don't really know what else to do with their life. It least they take the opportunity to get out of their parent's house, see the world, learn a skill/trade, and get some discipline in their lives. What other job does that for someone with a minimum of a high school diploma (or GED)? Some of the best airmen I have know have been from this category, and as a result of joining the USAF, they consider that they had found their calling in life and are completely happy.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Mean Gene, most of the 'enlist or else' stories are untrue.
March 15, 2007 - 09:16 ET by acaiguanaMean Gene, most of the 'enlist or else' stories are untrue.
Even when I was in during 1967-69, the canard that 'judges' were giving this out as an option was not true.
First, the military doesn't take losers, even during a 'draft'. People with parking tickets that were obnoxious (more than 3 or 4) were often rejected. For sure, if one was standing in front of a judge for an arrest offense, the military wasn't too excited about taking them in because they were just a problem all the way.
I find it hard to believe this guy at all.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
ACA,I agree with you.At the s
March 15, 2007 - 11:36 ET by Mean Gene Dr. LoveACA,
I agree with you.
At the same time I think that there are probably some judges or more likely District Attorneys that go outside the bounds of their authority and ethics and tell a delinquent that their only options are to enlist or to face trial knowing that any person capable of thinking would chose enlistment over being convicted, especially when conviction and jail time are certain. That way, the judge/D.A. pushes his problem onto the military, rather than letting the justice system take responsibility for them. Basically, I think that some judges/D.A.s could possibly "unofficially" offer the choice to people and expunge their record so they can enter the military. Things like this could very easily happen before trial.
IF and only IF it does happen, instances of it are certain to be very few and far between. Like I told him, if he does in fact know 3 people as he describes, he needs to stop hanging out with so many criminals/demand that his local D.A. uses the legal system to take those troubled people out of society rather than pushing them onto the military.
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt, 26th president of US (1858 - 1919)
Mean Gene, ACA
March 15, 2007 - 11:42 ET by RJMean Gene, ACA, it doesn't take a thing away from what you said, but "enlist or else" does happen, but probably not often....mostly under the table, I think. It was the option given to one of my three brothers...all vets. I come from a large military family, but he's the only one I personally know about.
Even if a judge wants it, it doesn't mean automatic acceptance. They still have to undergo the same entrance requirements as anyone else. My brother was a "first timer", so he had a clean record...which is probably the circumstance with most others.
In any event, as I told him a couple of times, Sam has no clue about the subject. Obviously, he has an anti-military agenda.
I would agree that it happened and maybe still does.
March 15, 2007 - 11:55 ET by acaiguanaI would agree that it happened and maybe still does.
But not on any scale of magnitude. Some of the guys when I was in used it as an 'excuse' to appease the draftees making fun of them. I just never heard of it as a 'truth' and it certainly wasn't anything anyone put any credence in.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
So "enlist-or-else" is a myth, eh?
March 16, 2007 - 22:58 ET by samharmonSo, "most enlist or else stories are untrue?" Really?
Check out this article from the Philadelphia Enquirer dated March 4, 2007. Two upstanding young men from Central Pennsylvania who opened fire on a neighbor's animal were given the option of criminal punishment or the military. Guess what they chose? They'll be sailing the Seven Seas in the U.S. Navy (I've also provided the link to the full story):
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/philadelphia_county/philadelphia/16830976.htm
"BELLEFONTE, Pa. - Two 19-year-olds facing probation and community service or even jail time in the shooting of a steer considered a family pet took advantage of another option offered by the judge - joining the Navy.
Chris Jabco and Eric Smith, both from Bellefonte, had pleaded guilty to criminal conspiracy to commit cruelty to animals and two summary violations in the shooting of the $3,500 Scottish Highland steer.
The two were drinking Sept. 17 and drove through Spring Township with another man in search of deer to poach, culminating in the shooting of the steer, authorities said. The pair reached a deal with prosecutors, who recommended two years' probation and at least five hours of community service.
But Centre County Court Judge Bradley P. Lunsford said the case warranted more than probation. He noted the pain caused to the animal's owner and said Jabco and Smith had been drinking and driving around looking for something to kill. Their actions, he said, "were premeditated, senseless, and your motivations were evil."
The judge said they could spend 48 hours in jail, two years on probation, and 100 hours caring for animals on a farm; avoid jail time but spend 200 hours on the farm and remain on probation for two years; or enlist in the military."
Why was it not your first cho
March 14, 2007 - 21:01 ET by BDWhy was it not your first choice like it was for me?
I knew what career I wanted o
March 14, 2007 - 21:10 ET by samharmonI knew what career I wanted out of high school and I saw no reason to join the military.
I would have gone nuts anyway in the military. Authority issues!
So, why would you wish anyone
March 15, 2007 - 06:23 ET by BDSo, why would you wish anyone else to be forced to join something that you did not wish to do yourself?
I do not want any draftees to stand in the ranks behind or beside me. If they did not wish to join of their own free will, then "Let them depart."
Regarding "authority issues", that disappears when you are forced to depend on others during basic training for the simplest of tasks, but apparently you will never learn this.
Schmuck!
March 15, 2007 - 07:51 ET by ChasvsNothing but a F#CKING Schmuck!
That Jail or military crap we
March 15, 2007 - 07:48 ET by ChasvsThat Jail or military crap went out 30 years ago! STOP with the ancient history. In TODAY'S military ex-cons don't cut it! Neither do near-felons! This IS NOT Vietnam! That was a DRAFTED Mlitary and look what we got? THIS is what Andy Rooney figures is a better Military? F#CK him!
This is not my experience at
March 14, 2007 - 20:53 ET by BDThis is not my experience at all.
I stopped getting recruits with no where else to go at the end of the 80's. While todays entering recruit is not as physically strong at the outset as those of previous decades, I have not encountered anyone who survived basic and AIT that did not desire to.
THose who do not desire to make it through basic have WAY too many outs (Chapters) to get out without prejudice.
In a way, that kind of makes
March 14, 2007 - 21:12 ET by samharmonIn a way, I think you've helped make my point. If people feel the military is their last-best choice, they commit themselves to it. If they wash out, where do they go?
If they "wash out"
March 15, 2007 - 06:26 ET by BDIf they "wash out" they become liberals.....
THey wonder major metropolitan areas and claim they have service related disability, basically sucking on the old government....
Later in life they create intricate stories of heroism and become college professors.
die now- avoid holiday rush
March 15, 2007 - 06:29 ET by CarpareusWe can always hold our breathes elsewhere 81.
Dr. Carpareus ASS.SK.
Or liberal politicians...
March 15, 2007 - 17:04 ET by wwsmithOr liberal politicians...
You don't knoe Jack
March 15, 2007 - 07:45 ET by ChasvsAdmit it a$$hole, you don't know one person who joined ther military! You are an ignorant Liberal who's talking out his A$$ just like Andy Old Fart Rooney is!
Bull$hit
March 15, 2007 - 07:42 ET by ChasvsYou must have a very limited number of people you know who joined the military So if 2 out of 3 joined for such reasons, does that mean you figure 75% of the rest of the MIlitary had no better choice? . Not one Officer has to settle for what the Military offers. We do it for Duty, Honor, Country. John Kerry did it for his Political future and is the most despicable member of Congress, closely follwed by Jack " Redeploy to Okinawa" Murtha.
got to sign off but--
March 14, 2007 - 18:44 ET by misterbillgot to sign off but-- Just picture this Shrillary wins--she appoints Rosie as Secy of Defense. God help me, my brain cells are dying faster than they should.
Rooney's comments echoed John
March 14, 2007 - 19:17 ET by mostlymoderateRooney's comments echoed John Kerry's comments. Honestly, if I was a volunteer in the military I would be quite *pissed* right now at both of them. WOW
Pat Tillman desperate?
March 15, 2007 - 04:48 ET by Full MonteI suppose millionaire NFL star and war hero Pat Tillman didn't appreciate superstar status in the NFL. The pay just didn't cut it. Or maybe he had some serious personal issues. Army benefits must have really enticed him. What an insult to those of us who serve because we love our country and what we do.
We, the Military are intelligent enough to know......
March 15, 2007 - 06:25 ET by OldSailor88That Andy Rooney gets his sources in the same place as Dan Rather. If you suck as a reporter and can't find real news, well, hell. Make something up. As an 18 year Navy vet and Supervisor of Sailors both at sea and ashore, let me assure you that in my experience, Sailors are not enlisting because it's their only choice. Those of you who haven't looked around the service web sites should check them out. We are offering big money to recruits with prior education. Our College incentive programs are second to none. There are MANY of us nowdays who have at least their Associates or Bachelors degree, and I personally know several enlisted folks with Doctorates and/or an MBA. Most of us initially enlist for college money, and soon discover that we think of this as a rather noble profession. As for getting mad at this kind of stuff......yes, a little. But we know down deep in our patriotic hearts that the reason Andy Rooney can spew such drivel and make such a fine wage is BECAUSE WE SERVE AND ALLOW HIM THE FREEDOM TO DO SO.
Fat A$$
March 15, 2007 - 07:37 ET by ChasvsIf Andy would get his FAT A$$ out of his stuffy office and go talk to a soldier, airman, sailor or marine he'd find out how many of them had ample opportunity to do something 'better" with their lives than risk it for A$$holes like him! The liberal journalists, or fiction writers as I like to call them live in some screwy time-warped place that seems to stand reason on its head! This guy just needs to die and let the world get over him.
With as many constructionist
March 15, 2007 - 12:20 ET by MikeBWith as many constructionist judges on the Supreme Court, I don't think a draft is possible. Should congress actually pass such legislation, and if it were signed by a president, an 18 year-old draft protestor could immediately file suit in federal court claiming violation of his 13th amendment rights.
By definition, being drafted is involuntary servitude, is it not? As the 13th amendment reads, the only group that could be drafted would be convicts: "...nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted..."
I have to wonder about Rooney's attitude, though. He apparently objects to those who feel they have limited options wanting to try to improve their lot? If they "can't find what they want to do", they should apparently backpack around Europe on a dollar a day? If you want to "find yourself", why not the military? If you "find yourself" in the military, and decide that you like being part of a huge family and making a significant contribution to society, how is that a bad thing? And, if an enlistee finds he or she is not suited for military life, they don't have to stay.
If a draft was reinstated, and a draftee finds themselves not suited for military life, how is that a benefit to the military?
Tell me, Andy, which is better if you are young and haven't found your niche in life: to join the military, and possibly find that niche, or hang around the mall wi