There’s a new national campaign called “First Amendment First” that is looking to eliminate the influence that religion and religious groups have in setting policy and impacting elections. On Friday, former CBS anchorman Walter Cronkite endorsed their views.
As reported by MediaNews (emphasis mine throughout):
Alarmed by what they see as religious groups' growing influence on government policy, a consortium has launched a public awareness campaign to defend the First Amendment's vow that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
The article continued:
"That cherished freedom is under severe attack," the Rev. Welton Gaddy said before an audience of about 700 people in San Jose. Friday's event included an appearance by newsman Walter Cronkite, who endorsed the new national campaign called First Amendment First.
Isn’t that special? This is what the campaign advocates:
It calls for houses of worship to stop endorsing political candidates and for states' tax dollars not to go to any charity that discriminates in its hiring or requires people hold a certain faith to receive services.
It also says science and health policies should be based on scientific data, "not religious doctrine," and that schools shouldn't promote any religious preference.
Hmmm. Why is it that liberals are always attacking any groups that typically support Republican candidates, but have absolutely no problem with the incredible political might wielded by America’s labor unions?
Regardless, the article concluded: “Religion and politics are both important, said Cronkite, but 'we ought to be able to concentrate on each of those without crossing the two of them.'"
C’mon. Enough of the double-speak. Tell us what you really mean, Walter: America needs to legally prevent any group that supports Republican causes and candidates from being allowed to do so.
There. Don’t you feel better just speaking the truth?
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.













Comments Policy
Uncle Walter opposes all reli
February 24, 2007 - 15:42 ET by BDUncle Walter opposes all religions, except the one he passionately believes in: Liberalism.
Legend in his Own Mind
February 24, 2007 - 18:47 ET by allanfMr. Cronkite, who is a legend in his own mind, also worships at the Al Gore, Church of Global Warming.
Faith = Belief. Liberals be
February 25, 2007 - 00:57 ET by Scout FinchFaith = Belief. Liberals believe in the religion of 'man-made climate change'. I believe in nothing that the supposed 'most trusted man in news' says. Cronkite sold his soul to the devil forty years ago.
Well Walter, thanks for calling for the end of the welfare state
February 26, 2007 - 03:54 ET by SportPoliticsWell Walter, thanks for calling for the end of the welfare state.
I duly note that every liberal that I have ever encountered has demanded that the government take care of the poor like Jesus said we should (sarcastic or not they've said it ). Therefore, there must be an immediate cessation of that liberal doctrine that forces the government to coddle the poor, thereby separating Church and State a bit more, as the Cronkite has demanded.
I also call for the immediate removal of the crime of murder, as in thou shalt not kill, obviously religious doctrine intermingled with the power of government. Furthermore, this absolutely means the death penalty must be supported, as this type of killing would according to many left churchies of the insane, be not in alignment with religion.
Stealing shall now be allowed also, lest we become far too biblical in our government.
The liberals have already taken care of false gods, and coveting the neighbors goods and spouse, cursing in vain, depravity unleashed, and many others.
It calls for houses of wors
February 24, 2007 - 15:50 ET by mlongIt calls for houses of worship to stop endorsing political
candidates and for states' tax dollars not to go to any charity that
discriminates in its hiring or requires people hold a certain faith to
receive services
I wonder dose that include all those black churches dems always goto to start preaching from at the start of elections and that are used by the left to get out the black vote for them?
Also it goes without saying that Islam will be exempt from this effort
I thought of that Democrat an
February 24, 2007 - 16:00 ET by HumanEventsI thought of that Democrat and media hypocrisy too, mlong. Dems can use churches as much as they want to promote themselves and the media don't care and even heavily cover it to help them look "pious".
So the only "religion" Walter Uptight has a problem with in politics is when it endorses Republicans, as Noel mentioned near the end of the blog.
This is clearly aimed at wh
February 24, 2007 - 16:43 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsThis is clearly aimed at white evangelical Christians. The democrat candidate of your (MSM) choice can still campaign from the pulpit.
D
Want your elected reps to know what you think? Go to Congress.org, it's real easy.
You can also send faxes to your reps about immigration from Nu
And the funny thing is that
February 24, 2007 - 17:03 ET by Eric TurnerAnd the funny thing is that in almost 40 years of attending church I've never - not once - heard a pastor endorse any public office candidate.
Endorsing candidates
February 24, 2007 - 21:56 ET by austinhookI never noticed candidates being endorsed in church services either, but then maybe I didn't go to any of the more ecstatic churches.
I do often hear candidates being endorsed during religious broadcasts on the radio however. Makes me think that there are some churches that do the same during the service. Anyone have the experience? Did you feel fully comfortable with it?
I listen to a local Christi
February 24, 2007 - 22:11 ET by Eric TurnerI listen to a local Christian station here in the Tennessee and Kentucky border - WNKJ and it is listener supporter so they don't air political endorsements.
I know this is purely anecdotal but it's great anyway.
My experience with endorsements has been from hearing them from certain democratic individuals (Rev Jackson and Rev Sharpton). No one says anything when it's those folks who are backing liberal candidates. It's only when individuals who are associated with the evangelical right who back conservative candidates when the MSM gets upset.
My Dad has been a southern
February 25, 2007 - 00:29 ET by seth_kegleyMy Dad has been a southern baptist minister for over 30 years and not once has he ever stood in a pulpit and endorsed a candidate for office. He has openly prayed for the leaders of our country, but he has never told his congregation who they should vote for. Its ridiculous that an organization calling itself a supporter of the First Amendment would call for the outright banning of religion in public life. That is not what the Constitution calls for, it calls for not establiching a particular religion not banning all religions.
Check out my blog at: http://preacherskid.blogdrive.com/
If a bill comes up relevant
February 24, 2007 - 17:17 ET by motherbeltIf a bill comes up relevant to that, it won't have a prayer, not while the Dems have a majority. They are not about to give up campaigning..oh, excuse me, "preaching" in black churches. During this past election, the Washington Times did a piece on this, including one church, (Mt. Ennon Baptist), where members of the congregation actually admitted after the service that the preacher had changed minds about who to vote for (in the Steele vs. Cardin race).
But of course, the Democrats would be in favor of banning Catholic Churches from even handing out "voting guides" that tell candidates' positions on things like abortion, without endorsing anyone, lest the faithful be unduly influenced by the knowledge.
Good Point, Mlong
February 24, 2007 - 22:55 ET by emjem24Good point, Mlong. Didn't even think of that. Why is it that Big Bad Bubba Clinton can say alelujah at a black church but the instant Pres. Bush did that he was villified for being "religious" and "consulting with a higher power." Curious, isn't it? Wonderfully hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer. Air Force Motto
emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.
Absolutely emjem
February 26, 2007 - 05:52 ET by SportPoliticsAbsolutely emjem. Now BarakHussieOsbama has his militant black church, and I'd really have a hard time believing a barak crusade hasn't overtaken that place.
Yes, the rule is as long as the church preaches forced government taking and then givings backs to the poor(vote demcorat), it's what Jesus would do, and it's a OK, because that means the real xtians,the dems, are gonna make the world better and peaceful, as Jesus said, they tell me all the freakin' time. I hope John Kerry gets banned from Communion again, until he repents. That was just great when he went church shopping wasn't it. Great separation.
Demojackassed hypocrits, the most astounding liars I've ever seen.
Well you over-blown narcissti
February 24, 2007 - 15:59 ET by bigtimerWell you over-blown narcisstic old self-important leftist wind-bag, what a hypocrite...it was always alright when the dim-wit dem's were holding hands in all the black churhes...ala Clintoons and Gore as recent examples...why yest thats just A-Okay...you phony leftist hypocrite...
You cannot go away fast enough for me...you are the perfect epitome of the enemy within, always have been.
Pot calling kettle....
tax dollars not to go to any
February 24, 2007 - 16:08 ET by AtheistRepublicantax dollars not to go to any charity
If I cut the quote down to that I agree 100%!Private individuals and groups can do what they want and support any politician they want, a religous group is no different then any other to me.
to all atheist republicans
February 24, 2007 - 16:59 ET by tumbler_2007Speaking only for myself, there's actually a plethora of atheistic influences today in our society;
Religious influence hardly begins to counteract what's polluting this nation and will eventually destroy it. A current of religious faith living and operating in our citizens is essential to the future of this nation. We will not become indifferent to the evils all around us just because atheists have rights.
I'm not completly sure what y
February 24, 2007 - 17:39 ET by AtheistRepublicanI'm not completly sure what you're trying to say, when I try putting all the sentences together they don't make sense to me, could you clarify? My heads not working right today.
yeah, I see
February 24, 2007 - 19:10 ET by tumbler_2007What I mean is, seeing so plainly all the powers of hell loose in our society at present, without a living spiritual counterbalance we are all going to hell in a handbasket.
An atheist has no clue, since he's always been in the basket anyhow.
I resent the idea that only r
February 24, 2007 - 20:11 ET by AtheistRepublicanI resent the idea that only religion can provide a counterweight against all the bad things, but thats beside the point.
I don't mind religion, or religous leaders supporting candidates. I have a problem with the government giving money to any charity, religous or not. My point in my original post was that Cronkite got it half right, gov't shouldn't be giving money to religious charites, but it shouldn't be giving money to charity at all.
I understood it AR...A minori
February 24, 2007 - 19:14 ET by bigtimerI understood it AR...
A minority is not going to stop the majority....no matter what.
Good example...Larry Dadow (sp) or whatever his name is trying to take the word God off of everything....trying to stop the pledge of allegiance....a couple of examples...
Not speaking of you personally as I hope you know...as a matter of principle we could look at tumbs views of the border situation and illegal aliens...there is a perfect example of the minority trying to loom over the majority...
All through laws, congress, public pressure, on and on it goes.
For me it is good vs. bad, right vs. wrong...no matter what you want to call it.
This nation had better wake up...before it is too late.
taking it all wrong once more
February 24, 2007 - 19:34 ET by tumbler_2007There's BT, again. Insisting that tumbler wants open borders. Which is ridiculous.
"we could look at tumbs views of the border situation and illegal aliens...there is a perfect example of the minority trying to loom over the majority..."
Not very perfect. A pipe dream you keep calling the facts.
I'm with the majority. I support immigration law. I think our ways of dealing with illegals are flawed, but we must keep trying. And do so without racial hatred.
Ooops...sorry tumbster.Had ya
February 24, 2007 - 19:38 ET by bigtimerOoops...sorry tumbster.
Had ya all wrong.
LOL!
You have a good one ....
Politics inside religion
February 24, 2007 - 22:19 ET by austinhookI agree that religious groups should be entitled to support politicians -- except that they should lose their tax exemption on donations in as much as that donation money is a way around laws that say that donations to political campaigns should not be tax deductible.
I also agree that there should be no tax deductible donations to charities, except that charities should not have to consider that the income they receive from donations is, in itself, taxable income. (People should not be taxed twice on using their money to accomplish charitable or political goals.) However, getting rid of tax deductions is not easy, so the first most important thing is that donations for political purposes should not benefit from tax deductible status.
Finally, I find that endorsing candidates during church services would really turn me off, so if it is happening, then I don't blame people for railing against it. I'm with them. However I dont see how it can legislated against, disgusting and insulting to the meaning of religion as it is. However, ultimately, any religious group is entitled to take sides as it's members choose. Of course, no one notices so much as when they choose a side you dont like personally. Tough luck. So perhaps laughing at Cronkite is correct here.
Oh come on austinbook
February 26, 2007 - 06:06 ET by SportPoliticsOh come on austinbook. The big lying joke is over, the mccrook fineforgold bill is blasted upon us, and the 527c's launched into the limelight and the big lie fell forever,as the 527c's stood in obvious violation and were totally excused.
Screw 'em.
Now mr lying liberal that's the way it wasn't for how many decades still thinks someone should listen to his exposed ranting loon rooney lib face ? I'll go opposite his crap based on principle alone, and be solid every time.
It's just another big grab for lib power. It'ed do us well to shove a giant elephant ear in fatso libs lying yapper and hope he croaks from it. Can you tell I can't stand someone who lies to me for 30 years straight, then is too stupid, feckless and immoral to keep the charade alive until he expires.
That's the best thing the Bush Presidency has done for me, perhaps. The cockroaches I respected because I was too ignorant to know any better have crawled out from under their fake face,and yappered up dozens of gigantic lies for me to view. It's been a very productive 6 years.
I have to say that I'm a
February 24, 2007 - 16:11 ET by WhichWingI have to say that I'm a little disappointed in this post. I agree 100% with these statements:
The original idea of the separation of church and state was a brilliant one. I don't think this has to do with Republicans and where their support comes from. There's plenty more places to get funds.
Obviously I speak for myself, and no one has to agree, but please don't attack me over this.
WhichWing
February 24, 2007 - 16:20 ET by Noel SheppardWW,
Why should any person or organization in this country be prevented from endorsing political candidates? Doesn't that go counter to the first amendment and the entire concept of democracy?
Furthermore, why should a religious organization be penalized for requiring employees or members to believe in its tenets? Isn't that rather preposterous?
As for the second sentence, given the current debate regarding anthropogenic global warming, who should be responsible for determining what scientific fact is? After all, if you buy into the current thinking -- which obviously I don't -- that it is a 90 percent certainty that man is responsible for GW, even the existence of a 10 percent uncertainty makes it NOT a fact.
As such, at what point should science trump the opinions of others in any public policy debate? ns
Bravo, Noel Sheppard
February 24, 2007 - 16:40 ET by tumbler_2007Might just add;
What gives the foolish old creep authority and why has he the public forum to dispute with the faith of mainstream America? Nobody forces him to attend a church. He's free to be a pagan and an idol-worshipper. Or a saint. It's not our business.
This is my country and my tax dollar too. I resent Kronkite deciding where it will or will not be spent. He can go P(#)SS up a rope!
Tumbler said: "What gi
February 24, 2007 - 17:09 ET by WhichWingTumbler said: "What gives the foolish old creep authority and why has he the public
forum to dispute with the faith of mainstream America?"
I think he got it the same why you did.
Then he said: "I resent Kronkite deciding where it will or will not be spent."
He hasn't been elected to congress or anything, he's sharing his opinion.
Noel said: "Why shoul
February 24, 2007 - 17:27 ET by WhichWingNoel said: "Why should any person or organization in this country be prevented from endorsing political candidates?"
Noel said: "Furthermore, why should a religious organization be penalized for requiring employees or members to believe in its tenets? Isn't that rather preposterous?"
Noel: "As for the second sentence, given the current debate regarding anthropogenic global warming, who should be responsible for determining what scientific fact is? After all, if you buy into the current thinking -- which obviously I don't -- that it is a 90 percent certainty that man is responsible for GW, even the existence of a 10 percent uncertainty makes it NOT a fact."
WW
February 24, 2007 - 17:35 ET by Noel SheppardWW,
First off, most of us believe that PBS and NPR do only hire extreme liberals. Yet, they still get our tax dollars. As such, you've kind of made my point for me with this analogy. :-)
Secondly, you think we're only reasonably certain that cigarettes are carcinogenic? Really? Could you show me some credible medical organizations or well-respected scientists that contest this fact with links please? I'm breathless with antici........pation. :-) ns
We are reasonably certain tha
February 24, 2007 - 17:46 ET by AtheistRepublicanWe are reasonably certain that smoking causes cancer. It has not been proven 100% to be fact, but there is still a warning on every pack of cigarettes.
There are plenty of us who don't believe that warning should be there even though its pretty much proven by the way.
AR
February 24, 2007 - 17:50 ET by Noel SheppardAR,
Why shouldn't it be there? ns
If a company wanted to it pu
February 24, 2007 - 18:03 ET by AtheistRepublicanIf a company wanted to it put there fine, but its their product, its not a corparations responsiblity to protect people (or the enviroment) to ignorant to realize that smoking is dangerous, even without all the antismoking commercials and education in the school systems breathing in smoke is instinctively known to be bad. Many people may say that the good that label does outweighs the harm to personal freedom, but not If the gov'ment wants to force corps to put it their they better start forcing corps to put warnings on, cars don't have warnings saying they might crash, I'm 90% sure eggs don't warn that you may catch Salmonella.
Maybe 'plenty of us' was an exaggeration by the way, though the word plenty is relative I would just like to take back that part of my statement right now.
Oh what do I know, I'm probably just crazy.
AR...Hold on a sec... I thoug
February 24, 2007 - 18:11 ET by Clear thinkerAR...
Hold on a sec... I thought the connection to smoking with cancer has been proven. My Doc has been trying to get me to quit and has shown me literature that says so.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
It.. has, well pretty much. I
February 24, 2007 - 18:16 ET by AtheistRepublicanIt.. has, well pretty much. I'm sorry I am having a hard time expressing myself today, sorry if I've left people scratching their heads.
It's Okay AR
February 24, 2007 - 23:19 ET by emjem24Hey AR, it's okay. We all have our bad days. For example, I try to be short and to the point, but well, the writer in me just won't have it. I'm trying though. You don't sound that bad...believe me, I've heard worse. You know what I mean? :)
The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer. Air Force Motto
emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.
Say It Ain't So, Clear Thinker
February 24, 2007 - 23:17 ET by emjem24Aww....Clear Thinker you smoke? I used to smoke and quit about ten years ago. I quit when I learned my grandmother, a life-long smoker since a teenager, had been diagnosed with emphesema (sp?). She later died from pneumonia as a result of the disease. Most of my mother's family smokes and I've got an aunt connected to an oxygen tank and she still smokes (when nobody's looking). It's a nasty habit and it will probably do its damage to me later on when I'm older (hope not). I'm not judging you but as a former smoker I gotta say I've never felt better. Good luck quiting. Have you tried the patch?
The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer. Air Force Motto
emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.
AR
February 24, 2007 - 18:17 ET by Noel SheppardAR,
Gotcha. I've got a mixed opinion on this probably like a lot of people. On the one hand, I don't want the government telling me what I can and can't do outside of what is considered legal and illegal. And, it does seem a bit preposterous to issue a warning that seems obvious.
On the other hand, haven't folks used the ignorance argument in their cases against the tobacco companies? Haven't people even won using such a specious argument? ns
I'm sure they have, doesn't m
February 24, 2007 - 18:30 ET by AtheistRepublicanI'm sure they have, doesn't mean they were right to do so. Ignorance is an individuals own fault, and besides alot of those people who sue tobacco companies don't seem particularly honest. Remember the guy(s?) who sued McDonalds for making him fat? In my mind its the same thing. Should Mcdonalds have to put a warning somewhere that eating it will make you fat?
.. and your question was rheotorical wasn't it? Well I already wrote my response so I'm posting anyway!
AR
February 24, 2007 - 19:07 ET by Noel SheppardAR,
Well, I think we're moving to a point when fast-food chains will be forced to put up signs concerning the fat and caloric content of what they're serving. I'm not saying I agree with it. But, it seems a natural extension to the obesity concerns. Moreover, I'm not sure I would completely disagree with it. After all, we require food sold in supermarkets to have such labels. Why shouldn't we require the same from restaurants? ns
What?!?!?
February 24, 2007 - 22:43 ET by UphillWhoa, NS! What are you saying? Is there something I don't know about fast food? I smell lawsuit! Somebody find me a tobacco lawyer!
Brontosaurs are not in favor...
February 24, 2007 - 16:21 ET by heldmywBrontosaurs are not in favor of faster-breeding tree-climbing mammals invading their territories, but... Do we really care what dinosaurs think?
Somebody come get grampa...
He He He He I Smell An Old Fool
February 24, 2007 - 22:49 ET by emjem24Isn't this guy like 100 already? My father-in-law, a WW II vet, has more of his wits about him than this old coot. When did we start caring what this old fart thought? Oh, that's right he thinks he's the father of journalism. Perhaps grandfather. He doesn't show his age (or his intelligence) very well. Pretty sad if he wasn't such a biased, media hog.
The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer. Air Force Motto
emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.
The intent of the seperati
February 24, 2007 - 16:50 ET by MidAmericaThe intent of the seperation of church and state was not to protect the government from churches but to protect churches from governtment intrusion.
Conservitive churches never became a problem until the democrats lost an automatic lock on congress.
Belonging to a church also makes it difficult for a liberal press to tell you what is right and moral.
Don't listen to you, listen to us!
February 24, 2007 - 16:51 ET by KC MulvilleThis is where the separation of church and state goes wrong. It is true that you shouldn’t use religious authority as an unchallengeable trump card in public debate. When we enter public debate, we leave religious authority behind, but not our religious values. And that’s what these initiatives are all about. They’re not about stifling religious authority; they’re about stifling religious values. Usually, they’re about stifling sexual restrictions, promoting gay marriage and abortion, and other libertarian agenda issues. Liberals believe these are “taboos for yahoos,” and that they themselves don’t need any restrictions on their exercise of freedom.
You don’t have the right to force others to follow your religious values, but you certainly have the right to follow your own. You can’t force anyone else to obey them, but they can’t prevent you from following them. That should go without saying, but liberals confuse the two.
When a liberal demands that “no one should impose their religion,” they don’t want you to even consider your own religion when it comes to public policy. They want you to forget about your religion, and instead follow their version of “rationally acceptable” arguments. Therefore, you can’t reasonably oppose prostitution or pornography, because (they believe) these are only religious preferences.
This “religion and politics … should never cross” idea is a naked attempt to get people to disavow their own religion. If they know what they’re doing, then they’re dangerous liars. If they don’t realize that this is what they’re doing, then they’re just dangerous fools.
Nicely put, KC. I'll take i
February 25, 2007 - 09:03 ET by Chicago RepublicanNicely put, KC. I'll take it a step further. When I hear people talk about religious groups' "interference" with politics (which, lets just put our cards on the table, when they say "religious" they mean Christian) it essentially means that they feel people who are religious have no place in politics. This is absurd. Christians who are American Citizens (yes, this includes the hated Pat Robertson. Sorry Leftists) have every right to participate in the political process as any other.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
I have no problem with Pat
February 25, 2007 - 09:12 ET by sarcasmoI have no problem with Pat doing politics (and I've frequently made fun of him when he tried in the past) but I do have a problem with his followers passing laws that, for example, forbid sarcasmo and the local owner of a convenience store (possibly a Hundu, possibly a Muslim -- I dunno) from executing a (capitalist) transaction and buying a six pack of beer this very morning... I say leave me alone, or alternatively make your church services so-interesting for a change that they needn't have this big-government crutch to compete with Apu's beer-sales.
JMR
Sarc, I'm not here to shill f
February 25, 2007 - 09:21 ET by Chicago RepublicanSarc, I'm not here to shill for Pat Robertson but.....His followers passing laws that forbid you from?? Not sure I understand what the Christian Gestapo has deprived you of? Legislation is brought before the voting body, then it is voted on and signed into law by an executive IF it passes. There are no goosestepping Gideons marching into the convenient store and tellling Apu and Sarcasmo that the High Authority has hereby decreed that you cannot drink beer before noon on Sunday. Laws are put into place through the political process. Christians who feel you shouldn't drink on Sunday may bring the item up for a vote on the Federal State or local level, but unless they have the votes, they won't succeed. The Christians are merely exercising the same rights that you do. By the way, the STUPIDEST law ever passed was the "no alcohol before noon on Sunday law." Ranks right up there with the IL law (other states do this as well *sigh*) that a minor can't drag my twelve pack across the scanner at the grocery store. I have to sit and wait for some pimply 21 year old to come do it. This state amazes me with some of its idiotic laws.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
We're supposedly a republic i
February 25, 2007 - 09:36 ET by sarcasmoWe're supposedly a republic instead of a pure democracy, but I'll let that aspect pass, and just say that I stand by my words making fun of Pat's minions passing big-government loving laws. I don't like it, however, when they steal small-government loving rhetoric during election-season and then don't follow through (keep their word) once in office because they're control-freaks every-bit as much as the lefties.
JMR
Alright, Sarc, you and I are
February 25, 2007 - 09:57 ET by Chicago RepublicanAlright, Sarc, you and I are usually on the same page so I'll just let it be. You are correct - we are a Representative Republic, not a Democracy (when I speak of spreading freedom around the world, you'll notice I never use the word "democracy", even though GWB does. Democracy isn't much more than mob rule). Not really sure where in my post I called this nation a democracy, but.... oh well. I'm assuming "Pat's Minions" are the regular rank and file Republicans that are outspoken on social values.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
In the Constitution it says I
February 25, 2007 - 10:25 ET by sarcasmoIn the Constitution it says I have a right to contract with Apu, as well as a 9th amendment right to be left-the-hell-alone. Without repealing those provisions of the Constitution, SOME majority SOMEHOW passed laws against me doing what I want to do, and you defended their doing that above, so I said what I said. If this majority TRULY wanted such laws, they'd need to be honest enough to try to repeal the 9th amendment first instead of just ignoring it. And I don't mind people being outspoken on "social values" in the least, but I don't want their alleged "values" to be imposed on me by thugs at gunpoint -- especially by morally-inferior busybodies who IMO need to find something else to do with their ample free time.
JMR
Ok, I went to public school s
February 25, 2007 - 10:52 ET by Chicago RepublicanOk, I went to public school so I'm obviously a bit slow here.
Not sure what thugs are pointing a gun to your head and instituting Theocratic law.
Does the court always rule correctly? Of course not. Case in point, Kilo v New London. As long as I live, I'll never get over that decision. However, its the best system in an imperfect world.
So, in my mind the rights of the minority have numerous safeguards. Additionally, I felt like your original post to me you felt that, in order to safeguard your personal rights, that those of religious persuasion should should just sit behind stained glass windows and not participate. Sarc, If I was wrong in that assumption, I owe you a deep apology.
If you feel like something is unconstitutional, there is recourse for you in the courts. If you feel like the Ayatollah Reverend Lovejoy is keeping you from buying Duff from Apu at 8 am on a Sunday, then challenge the law in court. Its an imperfect system but its the best we can do.
PS - Sarc, its 9 am here in Chicago. You can come over and have a Bloody Mary with me if you like. We're in agreement there.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
I want them to participate,
February 25, 2007 - 11:05 ET by sarcasmoI want them to participate, but I'd prefer it if they'd actually THINK first. For example, I'd like religious people to think about the number of tithes big government costs them. Then I'd like them to think about what's essential and what's obviously excess, and try to put laws into one of those 2 categories. Laws, after all, do get enforced by large men carrying guns in the end, Apu's not gonna take that risk and neither am I. And if this law we're talkin' about somehow isn't theocratic, just what the hell IS it, anyway? I'd love to attend the church of any pastor with big-enough balls to oppose and help me civilly-disobey this moronic law, but nobody seems all that upset about it on the church-lady side of the issue, unless I'm mistaken.
As far as the courts go, no law has ever been repealed in this nation's history solely for violating the 9th Amendment, which is why I've proposed a serious debate on its repeal. Needless to say, the people who want to keep-ignoring an amendment DON'T want to see any sort of debate involving it, so my appeal to reason -- much like my appeal for the religious to count the tithes they pay in taxes for big government -- falls on deaf ears.
JMR
I want them to participate...
February 25, 2007 - 11:27 ET by Chicago RepublicanI want them to participate...
Sarc, that's really been my only point all along. They have a right to participate. If you think they are wrong for the things they promote via the "democratic" process, then engage them in the arena of ideas, plead your case to those who are voting and the system works itself out. If the final decision infringes on any of your rights safeguarded by the Bill of Rights, challenge it. But don't act like Jackbooted Jesusfreaks are arbitrarily walking into Apu's store and taking your Pabst away. That's just not the case. The law is the law - challenge the law and change it via the political process rather than pretending you live in a police state where Christians rule by fiat.
PS - Hurry up, the ice is melting on the Bloody Mary I made for you.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
Um... Chicago, go ahead and drink the BM.
February 25, 2007 - 11:50 ET by acaiguanaUm... Chicago, go ahead and drink the BM.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
Way ahead of you, Aca. Besi
February 25, 2007 - 12:31 ET by Chicago RepublicanWay ahead of you, Aca. Besides, wife was bitching at me to go outside and shovel the slush in the driveway. Couldn't wait for him any longer.
**************
Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
I'll not choose to directly
February 26, 2007 - 04:49 ET by sarcasmoI'll not choose to directly challenge it via the legal process for the reasons I outlined above, but it's irrefutable that men from the government, with guns like it or not, enforce the law that both Apu and I followed today. Some Christians I've argued with in the past on this subject have tried to deny it's about Christianity, but that's a big-ass stretch, IMO, too. Instead of challenging the law, what I do is exactly what I've done here -- point out the obvious. 1. This law is stupid. 2. This law is theocrat-motivated (like it or not, unless you can pull another motivation outta your hat, it's quackin' like this duck) but note you used the term "Jackbooted Jesusfreaks," not me. 3. This law is, like all laws good and bad, enforced in the end at gunpoint, whether or not its proponents want people to think of it that way. I stand by all those points, and unless I get donations from you and others, making fun of the theocrats right here, just like I did above, is all I'm gonna do. It's not pretending I live in a police state to state the obvious, it's merely stating the obvious...The state is too-big and growing, and that means the police are tasked with too-much, IMO.
We decided on margaritas, instead, but enjoy your drinks.
JMR
Fair Enough, Magaritas and Ji
February 26, 2007 - 10:59 ET by Chicago RepublicanFair Enough, Magaritas and Jimmy Buffett are never a bad choice.
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Support the Spread of Open Society and Capitalism around the World. Do it for the Children.
I'm assuming this means it
February 24, 2007 - 17:08 ET by motherbeltdelete post
"There’s a new national cam
February 24, 2007 - 17:36 ET by muh-oon"There’s a new national campaign called “First Amendment First” that is looking to eliminate the influence that religion and religious groups have in setting policy and impacting elections. On Friday, former CBS anchorman Walter Cronkite endorsed their views."
Walter then commanded that he be rightly restored to his throne of influence over setting policy and impacting elections once the false idols had been cast down.
lets start with the Church
February 24, 2007 - 18:02 ET by jm1656lets start with the Church of Liberalism
And an offshoot of the Church
February 24, 2007 - 18:08 ET by Clear thinkerAnd an offshoot of the Church of Liberalism, the Church of Global Warming.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Only a true Leftist would use
February 24, 2007 - 18:11 ET by 10thAmendmentOnly a true Leftist would use a guarantee of Freedom Of Speech to supress Freedom of Religion. As for the liberal sanctity of "Seperation of Church and State" - please show it to me in the document.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Even Saint Walter of Cronkite (patron saint of fictional news reporting) will have trouble getting this on through the courts.
I speak as one who belongs to no organized religion but loves and respects the Constitution.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
10th, Thank you , thank you.
February 24, 2007 - 21:07 ET by RayRio10th,
Thank you , thank you. The
RR
"Seperation of Church and State" nonsense has been used by the Democrats for the past 40 to 50 years to try on get God out of our lives. They have used Thomas Jeffersons quote to brainwash citizens to make it seam as those it is actually in the Constitution. Of course since the public school are teaching our kids I'm sure they never make that correction. This is just another way the left is trying to destroy the Constitution.
..please add my gratitude for
February 24, 2007 - 21:21 ET by bigtimer..please add my gratitude for that well stated plain spoken post...
You said it all 10th!
Hear Hear 10th
February 24, 2007 - 23:36 ET by emjem2410th...
Couldn't agree more with you on this one. Though brought up a presbyterian, I'm not overly religious. However, I know that there is some kind of higher power that I look to in times of trouble, doubt, and liberal insanity. I'm uncomfortable with either political party shilling for votes in churches. However, we shouldn't be denying an organization the right to use its 1st amendment rights as it so wishes. I don't know about the whole tax dollar assisted charity/religious organization thing either. One thing I want to know, why are dems and atheists so obsessed with even a 10 commandmants plaque in a courtroom? I never minded that. We live in a republic that allows us to practice (or not practice) whatever religion we want. Tom Cruise practices Scientology and Madonna practices Kabala...yet Madonna criticizes Catholicism and religion every chance she gets. There are a lot of double standards to this issue and dems like Cronkoot are being deceitful. It's utterly sad...
The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer. Air Force Motto
emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.
Soviet Union Constitution
February 25, 2007 - 02:15 ET by CGatton"..."Seperation of Church and State" - please show it to me..."
Article 52(2) of the Constitution of the (former) Soviet Union is the only constitutional document that contains this, to the best of my knowledge. Thus, your statement that "Only a true Leftist would use..." is more true than you realized, perhaps! :o)
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
We practicing Christians bett
February 25, 2007 - 09:49 ET by fosstenWe practicing Christians better watch out. Once the left is successful in getting all religion out of government via the judicial system (which they will be eventually, by the way), they will come after all the Christians in the country and start arresting us for openly practicing our beliefs. They will do so with impunity because there won't be one sympathetic ear remaining in Washington to save us.
It's the same thing with gun control, if I may use an example. Once they are successful in removing our guns (2nd amendment notwithstanding), they will be able to abrogate the other nine amendments in the Bill of Rights, because the ONLY ONE that guarantees the other nine is the 2nd.
Walter Cronkite a prototyp specimen of an old man in his dotage.
February 24, 2007 - 18:29 ET by CTWalter Cronkite
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
dot·age –noun
1.a decline of mental faculties, esp. as associated with old age; senility. 2.excessive fondness; foolish affection.
Can I say " Fuck you W
February 24, 2007 - 18:38 ET by 1sttofightCan I say " Fuck you Walter"?
You can, but most of us (even
February 24, 2007 - 23:46 ET by MikeBYou can, but most of us (even those of us, like me, who are not religiously inclined) would appreciate it if you either deleted or diguised the expletive. That being said, most, if not all, of us agree with your sentiments.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Cronkite & religion
February 24, 2007 - 19:20 ET by M_StuartThis old poot needs to get over himself. It's been a long time since we cared what he thinks. This anti-religion stuff only concerns liberals when it is white evangelicals. The blacks bring candidates into their pulpits, and NPR is ridiculously left-wing.
Somebody tell this man to take his motheaten old brain and go away!
Aside from the Cronkite issue here, doesn't he appear to have ga
February 24, 2007 - 19:49 ET by acaiguanaAside from the Cronkite issue here, doesn't he appear to have gas?
Really bad gas?
Or is it just me?
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
I hope not cause that would
February 24, 2007 - 19:51 ET by Eric TurnerI hope not cause that would contribute to gw (note use of lower case).
If so, please note that we ha
February 24, 2007 - 21:49 ET by dahliatraversIf so, please note that we have carbon credits available for purchase.
ROFLMAO!!Good one to exit on
February 24, 2007 - 21:58 ET by bigtimerROFLMAO!!
Good one to exit on for awhile...thanks for laughter, I always need it!
I don't know, Aca, but it app
February 24, 2007 - 23:48 ET by MikeBI don't know, Aca, but it appears to me either he is severely constipated, or he just realized he needs to take a dump and his depends is already full.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
All we have to do is look bac
February 24, 2007 - 21:10 ET by usinkoreaAll we have to do is look back at our history to see what is going on here.
It is beyond a shadow of doubt that what Cronkite and crew are pushing for is something new - not something the people who wrote the Constitution practiced. It is beyond doubt that religion (Christianity) had much more influence on our government in the past, including at the nation's founding, than it does today.
And if we just look at the words this group quoted, and look at the past, we can see how they are trying to flip the meaning on its ear:
The quote they used means the government shall not establish a national religion and laws to prevent the freedom of religious expression and thought - you know - like what happened in Europe which drove boat loads of people to flee to the American colonies in the first place...
The focus in the words is on a top-down process whereby the government shall not interfere in the free exercise of religion.
What Cronkite and crew want to do is say the words actually means to attack religious interference from the grassroots-up.
Which is so plainly not what the government leaders who wrote the Constitution practiced themselves. It is clear from history, the vast majority of them would be baffled by what these groups are trying to accomplish.
What they are trying to do is something the Civil Rights Movement did.
They are trying to say that the Constitution inherently called for an extension of democracy that the contemporary society at the time of the founding could not accomplish due to opposition: meaning - that "all men are created equal" is what the Constitution meant as part of its core democratic founding, and this core meant all men (and women) regardless of race, but because of the power of the politicians from slave-holding states (and a few supporters up north), the inherent meaning of the Constitution could not be put into effect until a long time later when the nation had changed more and the Civil Rights Movement could rise up and put an end to segragation and other forms of discrimination that were actually counter to the meaning of the democracy our Constitution spells out.
That is what Cronkite's crew wants to do with religion. They say the Constitution actually called for the government to interfere in religion to free the govenrment (and increasingly the public sphere) of all influence by religion - not just the founding of an official state religion.
They believe American society will be more democratic the closer it gets to secularization just as the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement were convinced that you could not label American society "democratic" as long as segragation and institutionalized discrimination were practiced.
I agree one of these campaigns was dead-on correct - and the other is full of poo....and obviously so....
Excellent clarification
February 24, 2007 - 23:25 ET by austinhookThat was an excellent clarification of the issue, usainkorea. I like it.
Now the question is if it accurately portrays Cronkite's agenda, as most people here think it does. I suspect Cronkite gets carried away from time to time, in attacking the things that bother him. And, of course it is easy to impugn people motives. People having a more modest agenda might well "say" the same as Cronkite, on certain occasions.
Now, there are at least some parts of the mix of religion and state that are dangerous. So, for those who are certain that Cronkite's agenda is so extreme, keep those facts and quotes flowing. Meanwhile the rest of us will cut him some slack, until the case is totally proven.
I don't think you can really
February 25, 2007 - 05:38 ET by usinkoreaI don't think you can really question whether or not this is what they are trying. The effort has been going on long enough with enough examples to tell what is going on.
The post specifically quoted from the group he was endorsing and what the interpretation of the Constitution they qouted themselves.
It is also clear they are trying to get any and every reference of religion from any remote connection to the government - like "In God We Trust" or crosses on a state or city flag - and so on.
They are not attacking extreme examples of the government promoting religion. They are attacking many tiny elements here and there as well as seeking to prevent religious orgs from having a voice/influence on politicians and political parties. (Which would be them advocating that the freedom of expression and assembly should be curtailed in this instance for the greater good of the nation becasue the threat of the religious groups is greater and counter to the sections of the Constitution they quote)...