LATimes: US Reaction to 9/11 Just a 'Massive Overreaction'

Photo of Warner Todd Huston.

Nearly 3,000 Americans killed in a series of attacks on one single day -- the most American civilians ever killed in a single day with coordinated attacks -- was no big deal as far as David Bell writing for the L.A. Times is concerned.

The attacks were a horrible act of mass murder, but history says we're overreacting.

See, they know this because Russia had a bad time of it during WWII.

...imagine that the attacks had continued, every six hours, for another four years, until nearly 20 million Americans were dead. This is roughly what the Soviet Union suffered during World War II, and contemplating these numbers may help put in perspective what the United States has so far experienced during the war against terrorism.

Such a ridiculous comparison. WWII, a standard, symmetrical war, bears little resemblance to this threat we face today. The Russians were under arms facing Hitler. It wasn't a "nice" war, surely, but it was a standard war none-the-less. Hitler invaded and the Russians resisted.

Standard war stuff, really.

On the other hand, Americans on Sept. 11th, 2001 were going about their daily lives with no thought of impending attacks. No war had been imagined declared and Americans had not the slightest clue that an attack was in the making. Granted Islamofascists had declared war on us, but we faced no nation state with a constituted army and didn't take the threat seriously. Few Americans were even aware that a fight was even brewing.

The absurdity of the Times' piece gets worse as one reads onward.

It also raises several questions. Has the American reaction to the attacks in fact been a massive overreaction? Is the widespread belief that 9/11 plunged us into one of the deadliest struggles of our time simply wrong? If we did overreact, why did we do so? Does history provide any insight?

Overreaction? 3,000 dead is something to ignore, something to consider insignificant??

Why is Russia's loss during a declared war 60 years ago enough to make our own loss something to just forget about? Would the Times rather we sat about and awaited to absorb 21 million deaths at the hands of Islamofascists in order to then be able to claim that we can now be outraged legitimately?

But, wait. The piece tips its hand five paragraphs down.

As an instance of mass murder, the attacks were unspeakable, but they still pale in comparison with any number of military assaults on civilian targets of the recent past, from Hiroshima on down.

(bold mine)

Ah, there you have it. The Islamofascists are not so bad after all. It's REALLY the USA that is the great Satan. The Times cannot tell the difference between acts during mutually agreed upon warfare, and those of a craven attack on an unsuspecting nation's civilians.

They then go on to pooh-pooh the 3,000 dead from 9/11 and the soldiers we have lost since as insignificant compared to our annual traffic deaths.

Even if one counts our dead in Iraq and Afghanistan as casualties of the war against terrorism, which brings us to about 6,500, we should remember that roughly the same number of Americans die every two months in automobile accidents.

Using this somewhat odd comparison I would think the Times, then, would similarly find the losses of civilians in Iraq insignificant since nearly 6 million Jews lost their lives in the Holocaust? We have all seen the Times rant about how the eeevil Americans have killed so many innocent Iraqis.

And don't papers like the L.A. Times make claims that even one death by, say, the death penalty, is too much? Yet here, they seem to feel we need to reach millions of deaths for them to "count".

Now here is where the piece gets surreal. After relegating human life to sterile mathematics, Bell then goes on to explain that our "overreaction" is because of the 18th century Enlightenment thinking that created the modern west.

He explains to us that before the Enlightenment "...most people in the West took warfare for granted as an utterly unavoidable part of the social order." But that the Enlightenment "...popularized the notion that war was a barbaric relic of mankind's infancy, an anachronism that should soon vanish from the Earth. Human societies, wrote the influential thinkers of the time, followed a common path of historical evolution from savage beginnings toward ever-greater levels of peaceful civilization, politeness and commercial exchange."

He goes on to say:

The unexpected consequence of this change was that those who considered themselves "enlightened," but who still thought they needed to go to war, found it hard to justify war as anything other than an apocalyptic struggle for survival against an irredeemably evil enemy. In such struggles, of course, there could be no reason to practice restraint or to treat the enemy as an honorable opponent.

Sadly, Bell gets his analysis horribly wrong. There was a big reason that people didn't intellectually rise up against war before the Enlightenment. Human beings did not have any sort of freedom before the ideas of individual autonomy popularized by the Enlightenment became universal. Men were the property of the King before the Enlightenment. Their individual lives were not important in the scheme of things either as far as the powers that be were concerned or as far as the common man was concerned. The King owned all and most people were relatively resigned to that ages old concept.

Then came the Enlightenment where the focus of government was shifted from a protection of the King's rights to a protection of the individual’s. The Enlightenment's best thinkers didn't just imagine that "Human societies" would "evolve" out of a need for war merely out of the progression of time, but because the individual was ever after considered of prime importance.

This means that any attack is, indeed, an "apocalypse" because that attack isn't an attack on some far off sovereign, but one on every man, woman and child in the country. To be deprived of life is the worst violation of civilized behavior. It must be met with overwhelming force, enough to stop the attempts and return to the status quo of peace.

Bell closes with a straw-man argument made and then harkens to the left's favorite claim against Islamofascism... it's a criminal matter.

Yet as the comparison with the Soviet experience should remind us, the war against terrorism has not yet been much of a war at all, let alone a war to end all wars. It is a messy, difficult, long-term struggle against exceptionally dangerous criminals who actually like nothing better than being put on the same level of historical importance as Hitler -- can you imagine a better recruiting tool? To fight them effectively, we need coolness, resolve and stamina. But we also need to overcome long habit and remind ourselves that not every enemy is in fact a threat to our existence.

Setting up the straw man: Mr. Bell, no one has said this conflict is the "war to end all wars".

As to your prosaic claim that this is but a criminal matter, that absurd argument blithely ignores the fact that we have no jurisdiction over an Islamofascist movement that is spread across the globe in dozens of nations and without jurisdiction criminal charges are meaningless. Additionally, with some of those nations we have bad or no official relations and some are even PAYING for and sponsoring that very "criminal" activity. It is impossible to conduct criminal proceedings with a nation that refuses to participate in the process. Even if we wanted to treat them as criminals we would have to use military capabilities and assets to track them and capture them to bring them up on any charges.

It would end up being a military procedure anyway; either that or it would all be ineffective causing the criminal activity to go on completely unabated.

Worse, Mr. Bell's ideas would force us to sit about and wait for that 21 million Americans to die so that we would have a "crime" to investigate in any case. Otherwise, we would be presumably violating the "rights" of the terrorists planning the very attacks that he claims are but crimes.

Bell and the Times reveal their disregard for life and show their woeful lack of ability to understand and quantify the threat we face.


Comments Policy

All comments are owned by whoever posted them and are subject to our terms of use. They should not be assumed to represent the views of NewsBusters.

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Where's the outrage !

So much is being made of the investments of our government tax dollars in Iraq....how about shining that light on earmarks and welfare cadillacs? War on Poverty?  Drugs?  Climate?

Whodat

Why not all of the above? Why would you ignore the large amounts spent on the war, to look at other pots of money. They all deserve review?

I know your dream is of a too

I know your dream is of a toothless, powerless America that is only concerned with the coddling and babying of its citizens, but we do need to occasionally go to war to protect the freedom you have to sit on the ground and cry about how much you want yourself and everyone else around you nannied by the State. 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

These dunderheads, like David

These dunderheads, like David Bell, with their oh, so calm, measured, and cheesy analysis, earn and deserve total contempt. They think they're the nation's psychiatrists, thoughtfully puffing on their pipes, and asking us, "So, why do you think you have these feelings of unwarranted hostility?". If anyone ever deserved a cream pie in the face...

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

- Arabian Proverb

did you even read the article?

Your "quote" is not from the article?

What in the world does your

What in the world does your reply have to do with anything? I put quotation marks to denote a person speaking. Your're like a bird flitting from post to post depositing your droppings.

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

- Arabian Proverb

Chris

It has to do with you making comments in response to an article, or post about an article, that actually doesn't deal or respond to the article.

It is a technique of only looking at what you want. It doesn't help you or others learn.

That is what the point is.

And it looks like Bell and th

And it looks like Bell and the LA Times also reveal their disregard for the USA.

Good point about how the MSM gets up in arms over a single murderer receiving the death penalty. But to downplay over 3000 innocent deaths on 9/11? Wow. Just like the MSM is much more concerned about how the captured terrorists are treated as prisoners (you better not play that music too loud, that's torture!).

Saying 911 "pales in comparison" to other assaults is not only sickening but also completely unnecessary. Unless Mr. Bell just has to vent his anti-American sentiments that badly.

By the way, when the federal building in Oklahoma City was blown up and when the tragedy at Columbine High School happened they both got tremendous coverage for a long time. No one was stupid and insensitive enough to say they were "only" 168 and 13 deaths respectively. Could it be because it was all federal employees that died in Oklahoma and that the Columbine killings could be used to foster their anti-2nd ammendment agenda? But on 911 we're simply talking about 3000 ordinary US citizens and the attackers were muslim (instead of like Timothy McVeigh in OK). All 3 of these events are sad and dark days for our country and the way the libs inject politics into even gross murderous attacks is appalling.

Wow, I will try my best to be calm in the face of your comments

A. Wow. Just like the MSM is much more concerned about how the captured terrorists are treated as prisoners

1. First there is the distinction of what we do and what others do. 2. The attackers during 9/11 died at the same time, so there is nothing left to do to them. 3. the people behind the attacks, namely Osama Bin Laden, "Have you forgotten", is still free. And our president doesn't spend much time thinking about him. Apparently neither do you.

B. Saying 911 "pales in comparison" to other assaults is not only sickening but also completely unnecessary. Unless Mr. Bell just has to vent his anti-American sentiments that badly.

1. I will not defend his choice of words, but his point is an interesting one. Are all civilians innocent? Then what of actions like Hiroshima? This deserves some thought.

C. By the way, when the federal building in Oklahoma City was blown up and when the tragedy at Columbine High School happened they both got tremendous coverage for a long time.

1. No one is complaining of tremendous coverage of 9/11, it is what the coverage says, and what is purports. 2. There was no reason for someone to say "only" because the response was one that was commensurate and logical to the event. Investigate, locate, and hold accountable the person responsible. For 9/11 however it was used to attack, invade, and occupy a country that did not support the attack, let alone perpetrate it.

"The attackers during

"The attackers during 9/11 died at the same time, so there is nothing left to do to them. "

Utterly ridiculous. So, if all the zeros that bombed Pearl Harbor had been shot down, there would be no reason to seek retribution against Japan?

"..our president doesn't spend much time thinking about him (Osama Bin Laden)."

If you don't think we are after OBL, then you are severely lacking in intelligence. Also, you have no idea what our president does or doesn't think about.

"For 9/11 however it was used to attack, invade, and occupy a country that did not support the attack, let alone perpetrate it."

Japan attacked us. We attacked Germany. I believe there is a precedence.

Terrorist are the enemy. If you recall, right after 9/11 President Bush made a speech in which he identified the "axis of evil", three countries (Iran, Iraq, & N.Korea) that were most responsible for promoting, fostering, and enabling terrorists. He also made it clear that we were taking the offensive in the war on terror. Now, where do you think is the logical starting point in relation to this "axis of evil"???

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Jerry don't make it so simple

1. Look at the next sentence, you attend to those behind them that put this together. Which goes to the point of OBL.

2. These are George Bush's words, that he doesn't spend much time thinking about him.

3. Many things have been done, this does not make them right. 

4. Who are the terrorists, define this.

5. then why did we attack Afghanistan, first? Nor do I accept his premise of those countries being an axis of evil.

I have never defended clinton.

"1. Look at the next s

"1. Look at the next sentence, you attend to those behind them that put this together. Which goes to the point of OBL."

And we went after him in Afghanistan, took out the Taliban, and brought free elections to yet another country.

"2. These are George Bush's words, that he doesn't spend much time thinking about him."

Well, I am glad he is not pre-occupied with someone who is cowering in a cave. He lets his military commanders "think" about OBL, as he should.

"3. Many things have been done, this does not make them right. "

There are also many things that have not been done. This doesn't make inaction right either.

"4. Who are the terrorists, define this."

This is part of the problem. We don't know who all of them are, but we know who enables them. They are non-uniformed Islamic extremists who hide among civilians and seek to kill as many innocent men, women, and children as possible.

"5. then why did we attack Afghanistan, first? "

Uh.. refer to the point you yourself made in number 1.

"5. ... Nor do I accept his premise of those countries being an axis of evil."

I suppose you are privy to the sheer tonnage of intelligence briefings that go into making these decisions. Fortunately for us, you are out of the loop.

"I have never defended clinton."

Neither have you condemned him, I'm sure.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Jerry

1.  don't conflate the Taliban and OBL. Allowing one, isn't the same as doing something.

2. So is he the commander in cheif or the follower in chief? You can't have it both ways. Then why did he remove the generals in charge in Iraq?

3. Although inaction is the opposite of action it is not the only other alternative.

4. You can't know who enables someone that you don't know. How would you know?

5. Yes but this was responding to a different point from you, namely the axis of evil of which Afghan was not one. You asked where would you start? so I asked why afghan?

5. I didn't have to be, logic was my guide, and in fact it turned out I was right. So even without the information I got to the right conclusion, bush had information and got to the wrong conclusion.

6. Clinton is not relevant here, so there is no context for me to have condemned him.

"1. don't conflate th

"1. don't conflate the Taliban and OBL. Allowing one, isn't the same as doing something."

Not sure I follow. OBL was in Afghanistan, supported by the Taliban. Both had to go.

"2. So is he the commander in cheif or the follower in chief? You can't have it both ways. Then why did he remove the generals in charge in Iraq?"

Leaders delegate. Why have generals if you are going to micro-manage them. Generals are highly trained to do their job. Why would any President seek to supercede that expertise?

"3. Although inaction is the opposite of action it is not the only other alternative."

The time for talk had long since passed.

"4. You can't know who enables someone that you don't know. How would you know?"

Don't be silly. We know who the main players are and we know who is aiding and abetting them. It's just hard to identify the foot soldiers, because they don't represent a country, they represent an ideology, and they are non-uniformed combatants who like to hide among women and children for protection.

"5. Yes but this was responding to a different point from you, namely the axis of evil of which Afghan was not one. You asked where would you start? so I asked why afghan?"

Sigh.. Afghanistan was where OBL took us. He thought he could make it another Vietnam. He was wrong.

"5. I didn't have to be, logic was my guide, and in fact it turned out I was right. So even without the information I got to the right conclusion, bush had information and got to the wrong conclusion."

You were right??? That is your OPINION. You liberals all think your opinions are FACT for some reason.

"6. Clinton is not relevant here, so there is no context for me to have condemned him."

You're the one who keeps bringing up your non-defense of Clinton, as if that somehow proves the non-partianship of your criticism of President Bush. You are more than eager to Bush bash. Show me some proof that you were bashing Clinton when he was in office. There were 100 times more reasons to bash Clinton, so your "non-defense" clause means nothing. Otherwise, you should afford this president the same luxury you afforded the last president, and just sit back quietly and "not defend" him also.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

I GET IT! If a terrorist blow

I GET IT! If a terrorist blows up the LA Times leaving nothing but burned posters of Mao and Fidel and some smoldering contact lenses, no one should overeact! Heck, I promise I won't even notice. Thanks, David.

There's no national interest in getting involved in Iraq. We must go to Darfur and get involved. - Lib logic

Heh heh heh. Mica that truly

Heh heh heh. Mica that truly was MAGNIFICENT!

It's a MSM newspaper with typ

It's a MSM newspaper with typical MSM declining readership. Would anyone really notice?

Yes ...

Thanks for writing this, Warner. I saw the article, and I'm glad you tackled this. Cheers.

Yeah, I go a bot long winded

Yeah, I go a bit long winded with that one. But, I could have gone on even further!

This guy just made me so mad... apocolypticly so!

Overreaction - from question to answer

It amazed me as to how quickly Bell went from posing his question:

"It also raises several questions. Has the American reaction to the attacks in fact been a massive overreaction? Is the widespread belief that 9/11 plunged us into one of the deadliest struggles of our time simply wrong? If we did overreact, why did we do so? Does history provide any insight?"

.... to answering his question - 6 short paragraphs later:

"So why has there been such an overreaction?"

When a writer gets there so fast, one wonders why you ever posed the question in the first place. Instead, just title the piece, "We Overreacted to 9/11." Secondly - what should we do? What should countries all over the globe do with a group of radicals whose stated goal is to kill everyone else, but their own, and to force their form of insanity upon those who do convert? Have tea?

What is most comtempable abou

What is most comtempable about Mr. Bell's screed is the unspoken idea that the 3000 who died in the Towers on 9/11 were not "important" people.  One can only wonder how his tone would be if Speilberg or Cruise or Hilton had died in the attacks.  Those people in New York and Pennsylvania were just regular ordinary people.  Why get all bothered by them.  Only their immediate family members even remember their names, why get so worked up.

I am willing to bet if LA is attacked then Mr. Bell and his fellow travelers on the Left would be frothing at the mouth wanting to know why the "gubamint" hadn't protected them and why we hadn't gotten back at the terrorists who targeted them. 

To say Mr. Bell is despicable is to water down the meaning of despicable. 

Important

But they were "important" people to some on the Left.  Remember Ward Churchill referred to them as "Little Eichmans" who derved what they got.

And where is the outrage from the Left about the illegal immigrants who died working in the kitchen of Windows On The World?  The terrorists mistreated the illegals.

thanks for the info.  i didn

thanks for the info.  i didn't know the la times was still in business.  there have been so many staff reductions.  do they have interns doing their reporting now and writing their editorials?

Bell closes with a straw-ma

Bell closes with a straw-man argument made and then harkens to the
left's favorite claim against Islamofascism... it's a criminal matter.

Isn't that ultimately how we ended up in this mess in the first place -- the fact that, for eight years, Bill Clinton treated terrorist attacks as criminal matters? (Otherwise, why does most of The Path to 9/11 take place during his administration ... and why did he demand changes to the film?)

Memo to liberals: a guy who is willing to die for Allah isn't going to be the least bit intimidated by the prospect of doing 5-to-10 in Attica...

~~~
VOTE DEMOCRAT!

(It's easier than thinking)

b/c

The film was a political effort, and some key claims in the film were not true. And they made no claim to be based on facts when challenged.

cj-like you know what you are

cj-like you know what you are talking about?  DNC talking points, gobshite.

"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere"          -Ali ibn-Abi-Talib, 4th Islamic Caliph

LOL, if that's the case, why

LOL, if that's the case, why did a whole bunch of Clinton people, and Clinton himself, threaten ABC? And why did ABC then go and edit the film?

BTW, would you make the same categorization of Michael Moore's film? You know, the film that had multiple documented inaccuracies, yet resulted in Mr. Moore being invited to sit in the VIP Box at the 2004 Demcorat Convention with Mr. Peanut?

Del

Because they were false, so they had to edit it. They didn't make all of the edits.

Moore does make political films, that is intended to influence the audience to a point of view. Where he uses false information I disagree with him. Where he has good points I listen. As I have tried to do with everyone here. I don't think you are all nuts, I just think we need to do better at discussing things and learning from each other.

Well, I don't think we should

Well, I don't think we should see you claiming that you never defended Clinton ever again, right? 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Therein "lies" th

Therein "lies" the problem with Michael Moore. 99% of his audience will not know he is using false information, and I doubt that you know each time he uses false information. 99% of his audience will run around from blog site to blog site, quoting his "false information" as fact.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

the comparison of the plight

the comparison of the plight of the soviet union in WWII to 9-11 is one of the most ridiculous comparisons i've ever seen in modern journalism.  it clearly points out 2 things:

1.  how the media uses numbers with little regard to the source or relativity of those numbers to substantiate their position (on just about anything)

2.  how little people know or understand the "great patriotic war" or anything regarding world war II other than pearl harbor and DDay

first of all, the soviet union was not a nation "at peace" when germany invaded it in 1941 ... the non-aggression pact signed between germany and the USSR sealed the fate of poland before sept. 1, 1939 ... while it is popular knowledge that germany invaded poland to "start the war" ... the USSR also invaded poland from the east.

secondly, the war between germany and the soviet union was a titanic clash of ideologies between 2 dictators that 1. had on qualm with summarily executing their own citizens for disagreeing with the gov't (uh, stalin's purges in the 30s killed more people than germans did) and 2. had intentions of ruling the world ...

thirdly ... the germans themselves were both shocked and frightened by the soviets' general disregard for human life ... battalions of prisoners given the choice of gulag life or freedom joining the army (where they cleared minefields by simply walking through them) ... the human wave attacks against fortified positions ... the uncounted masses of soviet soldiers killed by the NKVD (stalin's enforcers) ... the killing of their own freed POWs ... the incident in the katyin forest ... the list goes on

if someone in a major newspaper wants to actually compare historical events, i would think the editors would at least have the intelligence and forethought to research the source of their argument.

"at some point people need to realize that there is more to being an american than just exercising his/her rights" - me 

Excellent points

Excellent points!  You have to remember that left wing journalists probably went to left wing colleges where they were taught by left wing college professors who see Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin as a bunch of swell guys who never did anything wrong.  I'm reading a book called "Stalin's Folly:  The Tragic First Ten Days of WWII on the Eastern Front" by Constantine Pleshakov.  He basically makes the case that Stalin was extremly incompetent during the attack by the Germans, and was in fact planning his own attack against the Germans.  Here is a quote from page 11 of the book "The 27 million lives lost during the war became mere propoganda, manipulated to cajole the living into obedience"

"I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane"  Waylon Jennings

Shocking events

There is a school of historical thought that thinks Stalin went into shock when Germany invaded Russia and that it took 8-10 for him to recover. Churchill had warned him of a German build up and he ignored it.

Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower

pmoh

1. The article never says the Soviet Union wa sa Nation "at peace".

2. I know you are not suggesting that wwii was just between germany and Russia, so what is your point?

3. Again, what is your point? And how do they address the points of the article?

What is more to being an american than exercising our rights?

1.  i never said the article

1.  i never said the article called the USSR a nation at peace ... it's a fact, though, that the author of the article was comparing the losses incurred by the soviet union with our losses on 9-11 ... my point is they cannot be compared ... 2 different scenarios all together ... i also wanted to emphasize that the number of soviet deaths on the eastern front (in which 20 million is often considered a conservative estimate) include a large number of the soviets executing their own men (another conservative estimate of 13,000 at stalingrad alone)

2.  actually, i'm quite knowledgeable on the second world war, so no, i do understand other nations were involved.  again the reference the author made was the ~20,000,000 lives lost by the soviet union and how it paled in comparison to the death toll on 9-11... and our "over-reaction" to those deaths.  you might wish to read books like "frontsoldaten", "ivan's war", "armaggedon" or either of antony beevor's classics "berlin, 1945" and "stalingrad" ... 3,000 lives lost in one single event IS a big deal to americans; 300,000 lives in the weeks it took to conquer berlin was a small toll to pay for the soviet motherland ... life is looked at differently by different societies ... again, the comparison was innappropriate

3.  obviously, you have failed to understand that my point addressed a particular portion of the article which i felt was, quite simply ... WRONG

"What is more to being an american than exercising our rights?"  maybe nothing ... but then again, while many are satisfied with exercising their rights ... others are willing to die to keep those rights intact for them ... to me, making sacrifices is what being american is all about

"at some point people need to realize that there is more to being an american than just exercising his/her rights" - me 

pmoh

Sorry maybe I misread your statements. Let me try again.

1. While I agree with you that the analogy/comparison with the USSR and WWII may be weak, it is not the central point of the article. So I don't think it is worth the indepth analysis.

2. I respect your thoughts and engaging on this, but his point of the article was not about the # of deaths in 9/11 vs ussr in wwii. The quote of pale in comparison was in relation to Hiroshima.

3. It may be, but I read it, that you were using this wrong portion to dismiss the entire article.

4. I think you sacrifice point, raises that real focus of the article. If I could paraphrase the article, it would be, are there things to sacrifice for? Yes, but how should our sacrifices take form. Should it be in proprotion to a trigger? Also how has the concept of war evolved. I think  a theme of this site has been that some feel you can always talk out a problem and others feel that you have to use force to show a point. He raises the question, of how we think about these responses?

cjkinsey, this may be a shock

cjkinsey, this may be a shocking revelation, so please sit down as you read this: If we ruthlessly hammer anyone or any nation that so much as looks at American interests wrong, much less the country itself, people will realize that they only cross paths with the United States at their own great personal risk, and thus it makes some people think twice before engaging in such behavior.

Violence has solved far more problems than diplomacy.  Violence has worked everywhere it has been tried.   

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Daryl Worley Would Ask: Have You Forgotten?

When I read this article, the Daryl Worley song "Have You Forgotten?" passes through my mind. I won't be shocked if the LA Times has never heard of the song (they don't seem the Country Music types). This whole article greatly saddens me. I lost 2 college classmates who worked in the North Tower that day. They left behind widows and babies they'll never see. I guess in Bell's mind (as well as the LA Times) we should just lie down and take it. Well, when we were attacked at Pearl Harbor we didn't lie down and take it then either. We mustered up as many fighters to engage Japanese fliers as we could gather. I wonder how long Bell would be able to stay unscathed if he voiced such opinions in a room full of military spouses (or 9/11 families for that matter). Probably not long. I've also lost friends in Iraq (and have friends there and in Afghanistan now). It's incredible what happens when Americans start forgetting that terrible day. I still remember where I was and how I felt. Every 9/11 I light candles in remembrance for what we lost...our innocence, our trust, our self-confidence, even our faith in humanity. I know that it has been almost 6 years since that terrible day but no matter how much time passes I will never forget and I will definitely always mention what happened that day to any children I might be so blessed to have. What a deplorable, utterly sad development when the news media now bashes 9/11 and its victims and blames America for it.

The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer.  Air Force Motto

emjem says: When your brain's stuck on liberalism it self-destructs.

Bad history

I am always leary of historians who think that Hiroshima was not a military target when it clearly was

Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower

They also igore minor inconve

They also igore minor inconveniences as Nanking, Sandakan, the Bataan Death March, Bangka Island massacre, and the sanctioned murder of downed US aircraft and the survivors of sunken allied merchant ships. To name but a few.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Danbo -thank you

Danbo -thank you--a reminder of things I learned as a young boy. I was unfamiliar with Bangka Island massacre until today. I knew of the others and I have seen Iris Chang's documentary. Man's inhumanity to man has always been like this. What is so different about Daniel Pearl's beheading? Nothing, in my opinion. To try to make peace with foes like this is folly. The President is right, we must persevere.

May I recommend “The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" by Hornfischer. An unbelieveable story. They were our boys. We should forgive, but never forget.

Hiroshima was a military targ

Hiroshima was a military target, but was also targeted because of its large civilian population. The Target Committee at Los Alamos wanted the bombing to have a maximum psycholgical effect on the population, besides destroying military targets.

And originally, Kyoto was selected as one of the targets due to its large concentration of intellectuals (people like the writer of this op-ed!) because it was felt that they would be "better able to recognize" the significance of such a weapon.

However, Kyoto was dropped from the target list by Secretary of War Henry Stimson because of its "cultural significance", a move that met with opposition from the head of the Manhattan Project, General Leslie Groves.

David Bell

I cannot wait to see what this historically ignorant (and I mean that both ways) individual is going to say-God forbid-after a mushroom cloud expands over one of our cities. Will he consider a response to that to be an over-reaction?

Does he consider our response to the Pearl Harbor attacks (where we declared war on Japan the very next day) to have been over-doing it?

How many innocent Americans will have to die before Mr. Bell decides enough is enough? 10,000?  100,000? 10 million?

As far as "the enlightenment" goes, I am now defining the term thusly:

The Enlightenment: The point at which Western Society decided it was no longer willing to fight for its own survival.

I guarantee you that is the definition future historians will use to define the term.

Does he consider our respon

Does he consider our response to the Pearl Harbor attacks (where we declared war on Japan the very next day) to have been over-doing it?

Yes, he DOES think that our reaction to Pearl was also an "overreaction". He says so in his piece.

At least he is consistently stupid.

Warner,I missed that one on

Warner,

I missed that one on my first pass.

As someone who considers myself somewhat of an amature historian on WW II and the events leading up to it, I would say we are quite fortunate that most people didn't hold that belief at the time, as Mr. Bell's column could have very well been written in Japanese.

It was, after all, mere chance that our carriers were not present at Pearl Harbor on the day of the Japanese attack. Had they been there they would most certainly have been destroyed and the entire U.S. West coast would have been wide open for a possible invasion. What is more we would have been powerless to do much about it for a significant period of time . Fortunately the Japanese were not presented with that option.

Had Adolf Hitler decided to consolidate his holdings in the Med and not made the ultimately fatal decision to invade Russia, there is a very real possibility that the Third Reich might still be in place today. 

That war could have very easily had a different outcome.  I wonder if Mr. Bell has ever stopped to consider how fortunate he is that that didn't happen that way?

No Warner

In his piece he argues against John Mueller he makes this argument.

Details are important.

Here is the quote.

In a recent book, for instance, political scientist John Mueller evaluated the threat that terrorists pose to the United States and convincingly concluded that it has been, to quote his title, "Overblown." But he undercut his own argument by adding that the United States has overreacted to every threat in its recent history, including even Pearl Harbor (rather than trying to defeat Japan, he argued, we should have tried containment!).

At which point would containm

At which point would containment have been operable?

It was effectively the policy of FDR's government prior to 7 Dec 1941 and it was not successful.

Post Dec 7 1941 when Japan invaded Indonesia, PI, Guam?

Or would containment be operable in 5 June 1942 follwoing Midway?  Should we have allowed them to have the PI, Indonesia, Malaya, Singapore etc?

Containment was not feasible at any point, nor is it at this point, sorry.

BD

You give now evidence that containment would not have worked against Saddam, when all evidence shows that in fact it had been working.

However, the point here is that this article was arguing against the idea of containment strategies against Japan.

Containment against Saddam was working? cjkinsey

Containment against Saddam was working?  cjkinsey

By whose measurements?  The Kurds?  Don't think so.  That's just one group in Iraq who were suffering with Saddam's 'containment'.

You don't remember, or choose to forget, the charges by the left that the 'embargo' threatened up to 1 million Iraqi children and your hero, Noam Chomsky was doing the following:

While firefighters were still pulling out warm body parts from Ground Zero, foreign policy critic Noam Chomsky and his followers on college campuses and alternative-weekly staffs nationwide were insisting that it was vital to understand the "context" of the September 11 massacre: that U.S.-led sanctions were killing "5,000 children a month" in Iraq. Meanwhile, on the Iraqi government's own Web site, the number of under-5 deaths from all causes for the month of September was listed as 2,932."

The above article was written in March 2002, 6 months after 9/11/01.

Either you are ignorant of history in the short term or deliberately ignoring the silliness of the Far Left and Liberal Democrats during that time.

If you are so ignorant of history in the short term, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be commenting on history over the long-term, such as WWII history.

See your problem cjkinsey is that like all Liberals, you like to present the 'facts' in a way the only agrees with your effort to see the US lose the war in Iraq.  In fact you are invested deeply in the US losing the war in Iraq.

You guys have dug such a deep hole by insisting we lose the war in Iraq that there is just no way the you can allow the US to win.  Or do anything right.  All this blather over 'why' we went to Iraq is a smokescreen to discredit the Bush Presidency so the Left and Liberal Democrat Party can control the government of the United States.  Pure and simple.

You guys never cared a whit about the Iraqis before we went there.  You don't care now.  All you care about is taking power.

ACA

...

Acaiguana says:  "I love blind Monkeys and any inference that I am making fun of blind Monkeys would be wrong.

details

Aca,

Details my friend, the distinctions are in the details. I don't know the specific of Noam's comment, specifically but one distinction has been around sanctions on providing medical care, vs a sanction on imports of material goods and weapons.

Your so called "facts" are frequently in question and your ability to continue a reasonable discussion is troubling. You asked by what measurement, but we had the measurement, Saddams possesion of WMD. Which now, even the president, claims he didn't have. So while you can try to change the subject to the Kurds and offer no support for such a response from them, but it indicates that you are having trouble following a train of thought.

I have dug such a big hole, by insisting that we lose? Your support and evidence for this is?

Containment would have worked

Containment would have worked?  Where else has it worked in the past?

Against the sovs?  Not so much.

As a religious person, I sh

As a religious person, I should point out to Mr. Bell that "apocalypse" is the Greek work for "revelation." Is it just me, or does that shed some new light on the fact that he simply doesn't know what he's talking about?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is to try to please everyone." - Bill Cosby

I wonder if the LA Times woul

I wonder if the LA Times would have said that, had the attacks happened in LA.

Cutting to the chase...LA doe

Cutting to the chase...LA doesn't like NYC.

"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"

Pearl Harbor, December 7, 194

Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941:  Overall, twenty-one ships of the U.S. Pacific fleet were damaged and the death toll reached 2,403, along with 68 civilians and 1,178 injured.

So Mr Bell, will you also be trivializing the death toll at Pearl Harbor?  I guess now it's our fault for over reacting to the Japanese sneak attack and starting WWII?  That's right, we goaded the Japanese into attacking us and goaded Hilter to declare war on us as well. Amazing what a little context from history can teach you.  Mr. Bell, you just trivialized yourself.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

War on Terror

This guy is good!

...until nearly 20 million Americans were dead. This is roughly what the Soviet Union suffered during World War II, and contemplating these numbers may help put in perspective what the United States has so far experienced during the war against terrorism.

OK. The USSR took over Eastern Europe as a result. By following his logic, it would be all right for the "imperialist" US to take over the Middle East and exploit the oil revenues for ourselves.

As an instance of mass murder, the attacks were unspeakable, but they still pale in comparison with any number of military assaults on civilian targets of the recent past, from Hiroshima on down.

Yes, and the final act of the war against Japan was to nuke two cities - so we should nuke Tehran and Damascus! Maybe a third city (Tikrit? Mecca?) because the death toll on 9/11 was about 25% higher.

Even if one counts our dead in Iraq and Afghanistan as casualties of the war against terrorism, which brings us to about 6,500, we should remember that roughly the same number of Americans die every two months in automobile accidents.

So the death toll of our soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and insurgents is insignificant. The MSM should stop reporting these insignificant deaths immediately.

See? This is Fun!

  Ignorance is bliss. It's easier to repeat a mindless slogan than to do some actual research.

"As an instance of mas

"As an instance of mass murder, the attacks were unspeakable, but they still pale in comparison with any number of military assaults on civilian targets of the recent past, from Hiroshima on down."

This clown doesn't know the difference between an unprovoked surprise attack against an unsuspecting civilian population and the prosecution of a war against an enemy seeking world conquest. His point might be relevant IF we had leveled Hiroshima in an unprovoked attack BEFORE the war started.

I guess if some murderer gunned down his whole family, the police shouldn't over-react and try to catch the bad guy because, after all, his loss was fairly insignificant compared to many other tragedies.

What a goof-ball!

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Just days before the A-bombs

Just days before the A-bombs were dropped, in fact, Harry Truman and the Allies issued the Potsdam Declaration, which was basically an ultimatum warning Japan of things to come if surrender was not forthcoming.

Notice how the writer of this piece (whose academic specialty is French studies, by the way-what a surprise!) doesn't mention the indiscriminate bombing of civilians by Nazi Germany (London Blitz).

LOL! French studies! No

LOL! French studies! No wonder. I guess he thinks we should have negotiated for terms of surrender on 9/12.

Agreed.. carpet bombing of civilian population centers was a groundrule of WWII that was set by our enemies.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Technically speaking, he's a

Technically speaking, he's a "history professor" who has written about French history.

And guess what? He's now apologizing for the title of the piece, claiming he didn't write it!

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/myweb/davidbell/

Now I am NOT a historian wh

Now I am NOT a historian when it comes to WWII, so someone please clarify something for me.  Is it actually true that the soviet union lost 20 million people due the war?

Stalin was the head of the Soviet Union at the time, is that not correct? isnt Stalin himself credited with with killing 20 million people himself? like 20 million russians? I thought that I heard that somewhere.  So is it the case that the soviet's lost an additonal 20 million? or am I wrong about something? Can someone please correct me or clarify this?

Hard to say how many

There aren't any official Soviet records of how many Russians perished during WW2, but the numbers are definatly large.  The Red Army liked to use a lot of cannon fodder when fighting, so they lost countless soldiers from that.  They also lost countless civilians from the Nazi bombings and normal citizens starving under horrific conditions.  You also had the Germans targeting the Russian Jews and Communists, so there are more Russian deaths.  Deserters were also shot and killed.

If you ever want to read about extremly horrific fighting, you should checkout some videos or books on WW2 fighting on the Eastern Front.   Now for some strange reason, the Japanese get a free pass for all their atrocities from WW2.  Left wingers like to throw out Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but they don't tell you that China claims countless millions were killed by the Japanese or the fact that the Filipinos to this day have extreme disdain for the Japanese.  In fact during WW2, the Filipinos were treated extremly ruthlessly by the Japanese.  WW2 is much bigger than what left wing journalists would have you believe. 

Prior to WW2, the Russian communists killed many people.  Also no official records were kept, so it's hard to keep track.  The Communists went after wealthy peasants called 'kulaks" and it is estimated that over 2 million perished.  Also left wing Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin were involved with the 'Red Terror' after the Bolsheviks came into power and they were killing many people.  Checkout the history of the NKVD, OGPU, Cheka, etc. and you can learn about Russian Communist atrocities that left wing college professors don't teach much about.  Stalin also purged many of his military officers in the late 1930's, before the WW2.

"There's blood in the street, it's up to my ankles"  'Peace Frog'

20 million

I don't think anybody can really know how many people died under Stain's full reign, but from his great purges every decade through the War years, twenty million sounds about right.

As for 'Massive Overreaction'---regardless of what some spineless reporter may think, such a reaction sent the right message to other states harboring hostile elements. Five years later, except for some whining from the usual crybabies the evidence suggests that message was received loud and clear.

------------------------------------------------------------------

www.wikistan.com

20 million

I don't think anybody can really know how many people died under Stain's full reign, but from his great purges every decade through the War years, twenty million sounds about right.

As for 'Massive Overreaction'---regardless of what some spineless journo may think, such a reaction sent the right message to other states harboring hostile elements. Five years later, except for some whining from the usual crybabies the evidence suggests that message was received loud and clear.

------------------------------------------------------------------

www.wikistan.com

The [new] Bell Curve

The [new] Bell Curve:

Bell stated (my bold):

Even if one counts our dead in Iraq and Afghanistan as casualties of the war against terrorism, which brings us to about 6,500, we should remember that roughly the same number of Americans die every two months in automobile accidents.

Wonder why he didn't compare to abortions. Since 1973, some 50,000,000 unborn babies have been killed.  The daily rate in the US, I believe is around 3,500 per day  (or 210,000 every two months) - that's a bit worse than the death rate from a 9/11, each and every day of the year.

One must wonder if David Bell has any reaction to that at all, or is he simply numb to it?