SFChronicle: We Must Negotiate with Iraqi Terrorists and Insurgents

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Chronicle staff writer, Robert Collier, wants the US to "negotiate" with the radical, Islamist, terrorists and the old guard Saddamists that are vexing Iraq's attempts to move into the 21st century preventing them in their laudable attempt to build a nation answerable to Iraqis of every stripe.

"U.S. must negotiate with insurgents and militias, experts say", Collier breathlessly informs us. His "experts", though, leave much to be desired for reliability.

Collier seems to think the insurgents and terror outfits should be treated as if they are merely interested parties, as if they were the same kind of political party or faction we are used to in the west. Someone has not taken the time to inform Mr. Collier about exactly what these factions want in the Middle East, sadly.

Collier brings up what seems an interesting point in how to get people to the negotiating table he so wants to set.

In interviews with Chronicle correspondents in Iraq and by telephone with a Chronicle reporter in San Francisco, two dozen Sunni and Shiite hard-liners revealed a paradox. None could fully explain how to bring his side's sectarian killings under control, yet all emphasized that peace cannot take hold without the approval of those holding the weapons.

Unfortunately, as he moves forward with his piece he proves he doesn't understand the situation at all. He fails to realize that the parties who are funding the radical Islamists come from sources that have neither the desire, nor the ability to come to any negotiating table in Iraq. The people funding and driving the terrorists are not generally even Iraqis. They are often foreigners and ideologues that require that their enemies fall without any "negotiations" to the matter. And, those who are pushing the internal insurgency are out of power Saddamites who similarly aren't interested in "negotiating" but just simply want all their power back and do not care a fig how they do it. Or they are local militias and warlord leaders who have little interest in national political discussions.

In other words, the factions are varied, but few are interested in any negotiations.

Worse, nearly every person he quotes or relies on to inform him of the situation in Iraq are either "name withheld for security reasons" or people who cannot be officially linked to any power base or group. So, it is curious why Collier seems to think they represent anyone or should be relied upon for solid intel on the situation in Iraq... at least solid enough to base policy upon?

Collier introduces us to the pontifications of, in the Paper's words, "Two Iraqi correspondents for The Chronicle, who asked not to be identified for security reasons". He also quoted a former Saddam era functionary who has been out of power for years: "Mudafar al-Amin, who was Iraq's ambassador to Britain from 1999 until the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003..."

After reading the entire, long report by Mr. Collier one cannot help but be struck with the fact that this "former Republican Guard general" that Collier is so taken with is merely angling to regain his own lost power.

The former Republican Guard general, for example, estimated that al Qaeda's attacks represent "only 10 percent of the resistance," and he said that if the Hussein-era army were remobilized, it could "easily" stamp out al Qaeda and other terrorists.

In fact, nearly everything this "general" says is calculated to bring back Saddam's former army officers to a position of power. It's amazing that Collier was so bamboozled by this supposed insider.

Collier doesn't seem to understand the success of the clear and hold strategy that US forces have employed a policy which should be first considered to set the groundwork for building the nation's political infrastructure before moving to any kind of "negotiations". Every place that the US military has brought overwhelming force into play, and then firmly held, has stabilized allowing the stage to be created for local parties to come with a newfound desire to negotiate.

Instead, Collier seems to be suggesting we give all insurgents upfront legitimacy without even determining if they do, indeed, have any standing from which to negotiate. He seems to think we should just accept to his negotiating table any former general who claims to still represent an army. This would not promote unity but would only increase fractionalization.

He also relies on the proclamations of an NGO created in 1994 that claims to want to spread peace about the planet. The International Crisis Group has been saying for some time that we should "negotiate" with anyone and everyone in Iraq, but seems not to have any real ideas who those individuals might be. Naturally this group wants to rely on the UN to start these palliative negotiations. I wonder if the ICG can give us a list of any successes the UN has had with such "negotiations" the past?

Both Collier and NGOs like the ICG fail to understand that "negotiating" leads to little of consequence with these types of foes. Why should they acquiesce to the central government's demands, for instance, if their own power base is wholly legitimized? What would cause them to willingly give up the power that has been handed them by a slot at any official "negotiations"? If their tenuous claims to power are supported they are far more likely to strive for more, especially if the central government cannot exert its own claims to power over them.

That is why the clear and hold strategy is so successful. Without something to temper the insurgent's insatiable grasp for power, some reason for them to feel it necessary to come to the negotiating table needy of compromise, negotiations are a complete waste of time.

But here comes the ICG and the SanFran Chronicle willing to hand any insurgent a free pass to legitimate power. All they need do is kill a few hundred civilians and attack a US convoy or two and, viola! They are an instant "leader" that should be "negotiated" with.

This idea of Collier's is a sure plan for worsening conditions, more in-fighting and further sectionalization of Iraq's worst hotspots as well as a return to power for people who are responsible for the rapes and tortures of uncounted Iraqi citizens for decades. On top of that it invites more external meddling by al Qaeda and Iran.

No, instead of sensible analysis, what Collier gave us was an example of staff writer trying desperately to make news with his "exclusive" sources and to drive the agenda as opposed to reporting on anything. It is an attempt to make the reporter relevant but is not any serious policy discussion at all. Collier also represents the inability of certain people in the west to understand the threat that faces us in Iraq.

Collier reveals that he is not on the side of the Iraqi people, the US military, or the American people if he wants to reward and legitimize murderers, warlords, and strongmen instead of strengthening an evolving Iraqi government.

Thanks but no thanks for the "help" Mr. Collier.


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We're going to negotiate with

We're going to negotiate with these people?  We're going to reward them for murder?  Then what do we do when they don't stop gurus in san fran (home of the rudderless nancy p.)? 

Liberalism is a convenient lie.

Collier is a typical ignorant American SF resident.

Collier is a typical ignorant American SF resident.

This is why Nancy Pelosi is a dangerous politician.  Collier is a typial Pelosi voter.

Collier has obviously been listening to the 'gossip' found in any Middle Eastern Country from people who believe anything is a conspiracy theory rather than understanding the selfish motivation of each of the speakers.  This is like the blind men and the elephant.

Let's see, this type of ignorance has been shown before.  Where?  In the Yassar Arafat story.  We took a Terrorist and made him a 'leader' and negotiated with him.  He led the West and Israel and the UN around by their noses, all the while supporting his brand of Terrorism to fit his agenda.  He started out as a Terrorist and ended up as a 'Nobel Peace Prize' Terrorist.

Sure did work, huh?  Particularly in Palistine.

Yasser Arafat was probably the prime reason for zero progress over the past 25 years in dealing with the Palistinian problems; with his buddy Jimmy Carter.  Of the two Presidents, Carter, not Bush, was blinded by his Christian faith in 'men of God' as he called the Ayatolla in a personal letter during his 444 days of negotiation.

That 444 days of negotiation Carter held with Iran resulted in what we have today in Iran.

These people have no depth.  My experience with NGO types has been that they are idealists with no foundation for their ideas.  This leads to bad policy, poor ideas and mismatched perceptions of reality.

So it goes.

ACA

...

Acaiguana says:  "Which city is next?"

That suggestion by this sf bu

That suggestion by this sf bubble boy will never work--you set out the case well. 

Liberalism is a convenient lie.

It worked really well for the

It worked really well for the terrorist Arafat.  He took billions (from what I heard~it was an obscene amount either way) from Europe for himself.  He never had any intention of 'negotiating' anything with Israel or us. One, he was a terrorist, criminal slug; and two, he was a gangster criminal slug.  Nothing the effete Europeans or leftists could do to dress up that hideous person and his thug 'political' party worked, no matter how much appeasing and begging they did.  Oslo?  Camp David?  hahahaha.  What a sick joke!

   Now, the Europeans are still blaming Israel for everything, as well as the US.  Stupidity never learns.

"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere"          -Ali ibn-Abi-Talib, 4th Islamic Caliph

We should never, never negoti

We should never, never negotiate our enemies. Never negotiate with Iran, Libya, North Korea, Venezuela and other terrorists, whose objective in life is to kill all Americans and wipe out states. As a matter of fact, we need to drop one nuke to each country as a warning or else it could be too late. Negotiation is for sissies and cowards. When these small dogs bite at you, your response is to kill them or your whole family will be next. Are you willing to suffer another 9/11...

Chief - ya lost me there big guy.

Chief - ya lost me there big guy.

Was there a Sarc switch?  Or a point?

ACA

...

Acaiguana says:  "Which city is next?"

Correct me Chief, but I think

Correct me Chief, but I think your message is DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH YOUR ENEMIES..  DESTROY THEM.  That about it? 

If that was his point, it wo

If that was his point, it works for me.

For 1400 years, the Islamic barbarians have negotiated just long enough to re-group and re-build their forces.  Then, when they feel strong enough they resume the Jihad.

It's an old pattern, but it has always worked for them and probably will again-thanks to Western ignorance and people like Robert Collier.

Folks, I didn't blink my eyes

Folks, I didn't blink my eyes when I wrote it. Sorry for this late response, got to go to school...I'll stand with my statement: Never, never negotiate with your enemies. When will America's leaders stand-up and have some big kahonas to defend its principles and its people. In order for us not to retreat into defensive mode, we need to be in the offense. Let's talk sports people...You could be the best defensive team, but if you don't score points, you lose.  You'll say, how about if both teams don't score, then it will be a tie. Wrong! You'll extend to overtime and for how many innings/quarters/minutes you think you'll go on. All of your players are exhausted, but they still have fresh legs. From where, you ask? From 1 more billion muslims.

This war was not suppose to be fought mano-a-mano. Drop a nuke as a warning to each country I mentioned and explain later. I will volunteer to push the button. People, war is for preservation: Its either to preserve our lives or theirs. Think again, hard... 

Drop a nuke as a warning to

Drop a nuke as a warning to each country I mentioned and explain later.

Finally, a sensible solution...

BTW, hate to be grammar freak, but it's "cojones."

I stand corrected my fellow b

I stand corrected my fellow big cajones...BTW, get rid of Generals and put some Senior enlisted to take care of the job- WE make things happen. This may sound arrogant, but in my 24 plus years onboard ships, the Chiefs make things happen! Go ask the scrambled eggs (pardon my language, sirs- they are the O's). All officers out there, sound off. Forget about political correctness, you're incognito...

Agreed. If it weren't for sen

Agreed. If it weren't for senior enlisted nothing would get done in the military.  But I have to add that "chiefing the pot" ain't nice! (Oh and I'm SFC, I turned down 8 for retirement.)

"Perpetual itching without benefit of scratching to the enemies of America." - July 4th toast during the Revolution

My experience with senior Nav

My experience with senior Navy Enlisted personnel is that they are the salt of the earth and I will remind you that most of the Scrambled Eggs will tell you this privately.

This is such backwards thinki

This is such backwards thinking. If we don't negotiate with our enemies, who do we negotiate with? We certainly don't negotiate with our friends. Didn't we negotiate the Japanese surrender in WWII after we bombed them back to the stoneage? What about the Treaty of Versailles when the Allied Nations negotiated the end of WWI with Germany? Of course, negotiating doesn't always work, but If we refuse to negotiate then we better reinstate the draft, because we will be at war for a long, long time.

This raises the question: who do we negotiate with? Do we negotiate with Arab Sunnis to stop attacking the Shiites? Do we negotiate with the Sunnis to keep from blowing up U.S. soldiers? Do we negotiate with the heads of government or the Muslim clerics? Haven't we already been negotiating with the Shiites to train their own army so they can "stand up when we stand down"? W's words there. The small dogs analogy (see above) doesn't work. The majority of Middle Eastern nations are Sunni, so these aren't exactly "small dogs". I think I'd rather toss an invisible dog a piece of meat to placate him rather than shoot wildly in all directions hoping to score a hit. And these terrorists are invisible. They don't wear a uniform and I don't know about you, but I can't tell one Muslim from the next. There are too many varieties and while some might say Muslims have dark complextions and have beards, there are people of all denominations that fit that description. I have a neighbor who is Muslim and if I were to guess his nationality on appearance, I'd probably say he's Irish. Give me another solution and don't say "kill'em all and let Allah sort them out", that's the typical mouth breather response.

"Didn't we negotiate the

"Didn't we negotiate the Japanese surrender after WWII..."  

What was there to negotiate about 'unconditional surrender'?  Did you ever study history?

The Versaille Treaty ending WWII was yet another sham.  What was the first thing Hitler did when France capitulated in 1940:  He made the French surrender in the same railcar the Germans had signed the 1918 Armistice in, then he ordered both the railcar and the monument it was loacted in blown up.

There is a lesson here:  You cannot negotiate with tyrants and fanatics.

These Islamic Fundamentalists are religious fanatics every bit as dedicated as the Japanese were under Bushido.   Their stated aims are the destruction of Israel, the destruction of the United States, the conversion, by force if necessary, of the entire world to Islam, and last but not least, the erection of a Global Caliphate.  Which of their aims are you prepared to negotiate?  Which of your freedoms are you prepared to surrender in exchange for peace?  And how long will these scum leave you in peace after you have yielded to one or more of their demands?  Won't they most certainly reopen their remaining demands at the first convenient opportunity?

And your solution is to stay

And your solution is to stay over there forever? Islamic Fundamentalism isn't going away anytime soon. Can you kill ALL of them? I don't think so. How many losses are acceptable to you?

FYI History Boy--the Treaty of Versaille was World War I.

I will ask you the same quest

I will ask you the same question.  How many losses can you accept?  If you do not see this through and DEFEAT Islamic Fundamentalism there will be NO PEACE except on their terms.  They have already detailed their terms.  They have left no room in their terms for anyone but Muslims.  Real peace comes only through victory, either theirs or ours.  Which one do you prefer?  This is NOT a bipartisan choice.  The Islamofascists will not give you that option.  If the West does not accept their terms, they will unilaterally continue Jihad upon the West unless they are defeated.

FYI, Ignoramus:  Hitler had the Railcar and WWI monument that hosted it blown up in vengeance for the The Treaty of Versaille after June 22, 1940, when he forced the French to surender in it, my typo not withstanding.

This is from the Hamas Charte

This is from the Hamas Charter, 1988
"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. "

There's nothing to negotiate, they have resolved it already.

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad

Larsen:Probably you know it b

Larsen:

Probably you know it by now that every country in the world hates America, go ask the drive-by-media. So, we don't have friends. We have some "allies", but no friends. Each one of them wants America defeated- no more superpower! For crying out loud, ask the drive-by-media again. They want us to lose in this war. With no superpower, the Islamists will be glad to take over and control the world. Ask France what they're capable of doing. Do you want to be controlled by third world fanatics, think again people.

One of my favorite George Was

One of my favorite George Washington quotes:

"There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real
favors from nation to nation."

Seniorchief--negotiation

Seniorchief--negotiation works--if you don't believe me ask Neville Chamberlain. You see, we not only have one of the best weapons system, we also have something a lot of other countries don't have and that's a topnotch delivery system.

So, if we negotiate, that will give our enemies enough time to come up with a few delivery systems of their own. So, to be fair , we need to allow them to do that.If you do not agree, my second suggestion is to nuke the M******F******s, then after the half life time is over , go in and negotiate with them. I, personally like the second option better.

PS while we are making a decision about this, could we have the Seals go in and rescue every embedded journalist and put them in the Red Sea for safety????

Negotiation Is For Kids

Yet another liberal rag trying out for a foreign policy advisory position. The only people who take this rag seriously are the ones in San Francisco. Negotiating with terrorists is like your kid negotiating with his bully. It makes no sense and will only add to more violence and humiliation which all these liberal rags across the country want. They'll say that it's "for the good of the country," when what they really mean is it's to humiliate our military, our country, and our President. But, then, when were these people ever on the side of the US?

The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer.  Air Force Motto

quoting from the book "J

quoting from the book "Jawbreaker"

"Al-Qaeda has sent someone out to say they want to nogotiate."

"screw that," I responded. "We came here to kill them."........."tell them your commander is from New York. I want them all dead!"

We didn't get to "nogotiate" when it came to the bombings on the embassies, or the bombing of the Uss Cole, or to two planes slamming into the twin towers.  You are not allowed to attack us, then when your butts are getting kicked, start to talk about "nogotiations."

Truth!"He who has a thou

Truth!

"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere"          -Ali ibn-Abi-Talib, 4th Islamic Caliph

When terrorists blew up our m

When terrorists blew up our marine base in Beirut in 1984 we didn't negotiate with them either. Anyone remember what President Reagan did? Closed the base and moved it offshore in four months time. Some would call what he did "cut and run". He wanted to drop bombs, but instead took the advice of his advisors and put the marines out of harm's way. W fires anyone who tells him what he doesn't want to hear and that's why we're in this mess in Iraq. This is the difference between a true world leader and a world leader wannabe.

How do you know Reagan did

How do you know Reagan did the right thing? The right thing may have been his gut instinct to drop bombs. You don't know one way or the other, yet you use his action to prove what? That Bush is bad? Grow up.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

You want me to "grow up"? At

You want me to "grow up"? At my age I won't be getting any taller. But you can get mentally taller by doing a little reading about what happened back then. Read and learn!

I'm not saying Bush is bad. I'm saying he's a total idiot and is a disgrace to his republican predecessors. He won't listen to his generals on the ground and he fires advisors who disagree with him. My solution is to let the newly trained Iraqi Army provide security for their own country. What? They aren't ready yet after four years? Too bad. If we start withdrawing our troops, they'll get ready. Let's hear your solution.

"Let's hear your solut

"Let's hear your solution"

Remove all embedded and foreign "journalists". Declare marshal law and win the war. Begin a propaganda campaign that only shows wining the war. Prohibit street demonstrations. Disarm all Militias. Seal the border with syria and Iran. Add 200 thousand more U.S troops. Close down bases in Europe if necessary and relocate these bases to Iraq and Afghanistan. No more cush jobs in Europe, the enemy is not there and Europe can take care of itself. Bomb Irans nuke capability...

I can think of more but that is just off the top of my head.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

MightyMouth....Hey    I li

MightyMouth....Hey    I like it!    Lets "just do it"

Screw the DimocRATS!     President Bush is STILL the Commander in Cheif   (not polosi!)                          Being "Politcaly Correct"  with    ISLAM  will distroy America......WW             

thumper, the thing is, this

thumper, the thing is, this is not rocket surgery. The last time we treated a "war" as a WAR, instead of a political hacky sack... we won!

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

MightyMouth..I agree...Kick o

MightyMouth..I agree...Kick out the "drive by media" ..put more troops in there,  and kick ass,  kill the enemy.    Thats what the gvt  spent a lot of money to train me to do when I was in the service.   "No excuses, no  B S,  get it done"     I heard that a lot .   I learned real well,  I gave no excuses, and I got the job done.....                          Being "Politcaly Correct"  with    ISLAM  will distroy America......WW             

Forgive me my two cents her

Forgive me my two cents here MightyMouth, but do you think that right now we have enough troops in our military to do that, while also being prepared to handle something on the other side of the world, say from Korea or China? Don't forget that China has more than twice the number of active duty troops as we have in our military, both active duty and reserve.

And there is like you say the hacky sack effect to consider.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price,
peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of
soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.

Theodore Roosevelt

Well James, we had the troo

Well James, we had the troop strength in 1990 with an all volunteer military. But as we all know, the prior administration cut those troops out to be able to say they had a budget surplus. Of course I was just offering my solution as requested by blarson. Like I said was off the top of my head, but who knows?

Nukes could keep China, N. Korea and all others in check until we mop up this problem. Hell, it's in their best intrest to restore free flow of oil anyhow.

Actually my point is that if we are going to war let's go to war! Hacky sack be damned!

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

On top of that we are at war

On top of that we are at war with Iran right now...who do people think we are fighting inside Iraq...who do they think are funding the insurgents, who is making the roadside bombs besides al Qaeda, they will all work together for our defeat.

We need to seal those borders with Iran and Syria desperately. Geesh.

"If we ever forget that we are a Nation Under God....then we will be a Nation Gone Under."  Ronald Reagan

Good point BT, those "

Good point BT, those "technical" states of war seem to be overlooked by so many, don't they?

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Mightymouth, I want you to

Mightymouth, I want you to know I do not disagree with you in any of your posts here on this subject, I just stuck that in because of my concerns about our total troop level, verses the possible number of places we may need to deploy them in the future. Which brings up something interesting.

It is from George Marshall, from Dec 11, 1953, his Nobel lecture when he received the Nobel Peace prize, back in the day when it still meant something.

Keep in mind that as Chief of Staff in 1939, Marshall oversaw the largest military expansion in
U. S. history, inheriting an outmoded, poorly equipped army of 200,000
men and, partly drawing from his experience teaching and developing
techniques of modern warfare as an instructor at the Army War College,
coordinated the large-scale expansion and modernization of the U. S.
army into a force of over eight million soldiers by 1942

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1953/marshall-lecture.html

here is the part that needs to be understood today;

The
threat today is quite different, but I do think that this
remarkable historical repetition does suggest that we have walked
blindly, ignoring the lessons of the past, with, in our century,
the tragic consequences of two world wars and the Korean struggle
as a result.

In my country my military associates
frequently tell me that we Americans have learned our lesson. I
completely disagree with this contention and point to the rapid
disintegration between 1945 and 1950 of our once vast power for
maintaining the peace. As a direct consequence, in my opinion,
there resulted the brutal invasion of South Korea, which for a
time threatened the complete defeat of our hastily arranged
forces in that field. I speak of this with deep feeling because
in 1939 and again in the early fall of 1950 it suddenly became my
duty, my responsibility, to rebuild our national military
strength in the very face of the gravest emergencies.

These opening remarks may lead you to
assume that my suggestions for the advancement of world peace
will rest largely on military strength. For the moment the
maintenance of peace in the present hazardous world situation
does depend in very large measure on military power, together
with Allied cohesion. But the maintenance of large armies for an
indefinite period is not a practical or a promising basis for
policy. We must stand together strongly for these present years,
that is, in this present situation; but we must, I repeat, we
must find another solution, and that is what I wish to discuss
this evening.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price,
peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of
soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.

Theodore Roosevelt

James, thanks for the quote

James, thanks for the quote from George Marshall. Definitely something to think about!

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

MM...Best post you have had a

MM...

Best post you have had all day!

...and you always have some good ones!

As you know most likely, I agree with you in every single way with your suggestions, we will not win if we do not do at least half of those!

"If we ever forget that we are a Nation Under God....then we will be a Nation Gone Under."  Ronald Reagan

Thanks BT, I think what I a

Thanks BT, I think what I am trying to say is let's stop dickin around (pardon my french) with these guys. Our troops have done an excellent job with what they have been asked to do. But the sad truth is, those suggestions should have been put into place 3 years ago. Ain't hindsight great?

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

I'd be all for that. Anythi

I'd be all for that. Anything that would show progress, some kind of movement forward. I can't tell what direction we're going right now. For every improvement, there appears to be a setback.

If the agenda driven policia

If the agenda driven policians, media in all forms, Amnesty International, Human rights, ACLU types, and all the lawyers they have to ask permission to every single time they turn around would all disappear, this war would of been over.

Deaths be damned, war is hell, it would of been over and done with.

Simple as that.

"If we ever forget that we are a Nation Under God....then we will be a Nation Gone Under."  Ronald Reagan

Change the ROE, if you shoot

Change the ROE, if you shoot at us, we shoot at you. If you hide behind civilians, civilians duck. When they know we won't give a quarter, they won't ask for one. Their mind set believes in power, so give them a show of power. As a last resort, nuke them into the 21 century (extreme yes, but I let my frustration show)

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad

History says Reagan made a mi

History says Reagan made a mistake here.  The terrorists did not go away.  Instead, they have grown in power are have since launched the most deadly and destructive surprise attack in history on American soil.  Think how different the picture would be if Reagan had, instead of timidly retreating, eradicated Hezbollah in the mid-1980s.

Fine example of what 'Cut and run' in the face of extremism buys.

As long as they are negotiati

As long as they are negotiating with Satan for their place in hell. I am not opposed to the negotiations.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

The problems of the middle

The problems of the middle east are deep rooted and it is going to take four things I believe that the American people are unwilling to give.

Time, it has taken almost 1400 years to get them where they are today, it will take generations to reprogram their minds.

Money, it will take billions of dollars of investments to build an infrastructure that will then be able to provide education and jobs for the people of the middle east so they will have the ability to provide for their families. This money is in addition to the billions of dollars we are spending for our military in Iraq and Afganistan right now.

Blood, it is going to take troops to overthrow corrupt, despotic dictators and provide some measure of stability for the country while they build the infrastructure and reprogram the minds.

And lastly it is going to take the one thing I believe is in very short supply in American Government, THE RESOLVE to stay until the job is finished.

Also here is something to think about.

Salman Rushdie, wrote the book the Satanic Verses in Sept. 1988, Febuary 1989, Time Magazine's man of the year for 1979, Ayatollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa calling for the killing of Salman Rushdie. The reason I bring this up is because in 2005, the Spiritual Leader of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei reaffirmed the fatwa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4260599.stm

One other thing to think about when pondering what to do in the middle east,

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP139306

Renowned Syrian Poet ‘Adonis’: ‘We, In Arab Society, Do Not Understand The Meaning Of Freedom’

The poet Ali Ahmad Sa'id (b. 1930), known by his pseudonym
"Adonis," a 2005 candidate for the Nobel Prize for Literature, left his
native Syria for Lebanon in the 1950s following six months'
imprisonment for political activity. In 1973, he received his Ph.D.
from
St. Joseph University in Beirut; in 1985, he settled in Paris, where he now works as a writer and literary critic. Among other occupations, he has edited the modernist magazine Mawaqif (Viewpoints), and translated some of the great French poets into Arabic.

The following are excerpts from interviews with Adonis, which aired on ANB TV on November 26, 2006 and on Dubai TV on March 11, 2006.

Adonis: "The difference between Europe and the Islamic world
is in quality, not in degree. What I mean is that the Christian view of
the world is not political, but humanistic. It is human beings who are
the basis for politics.

"A Christian has great liberty to separate his religious faith
from his political activity. The mistake committed by the Church in the
Middle Ages was rectified - obviously after a struggle and violent
revolutions - and political rule was entirely separated from
politics..."

Interviewer: "From religion..."

Adonis: "From religion, sorry. In our case, political
rule was based... Ever since the struggle over who would inherit
Prophet Muhammad's place, political rule was essentially based on
religion."

The rest is just as interesting.

One last thought, from Admiral Yamamoto, January 1941;

“Should hostilities once break out between Japan and the United States,
it is not enough that we take Guam and the Philippines, nor even Hawaii
and San Francisco. We would have to march into Washington and sign the
treaty in the White House. I wonder if our politicians (who speak so
lightly of a Japanese-American war) have confidence as to the outcome
and are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices?”

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price,
peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of
soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.

Theodore Roosevelt

Some good comments above.  

Some good comments above.   Collier obviously would not be hired by a respectable newspaper.  His article is littered with non sequiturs,  unattributed quotations, silly asides and general non-understanding of the region.  About a half-dozen of the interlocutors say they can't control their own people, yet Collier does not seem to understand that talking with these people who can't control their followers would be a fool's errand.

Being from San Fran, Collier probably wouldn't know what a fool's errand really was, as he is living in a city populated by a collection of rootless riff-raff.  I was in SF when Qaddafi proclaimed his "line of death" threat, and the Chronicle, chronically clueless, actually had a borderline in the Mediterranean named Line of Death without quotations.  At the time I was with a dyslexic liberal and even he noticed the absurdity of not putting the Libyan freak's threat in quotes.

The Chronicle is owned by the husband of Sharon Stone, who is laboring under the delusion that her latest movie was a huge success, and wants to do a third.

Her husband is laboring under the delusion that he owns a real newspaper.

daveinboca, bravo!

"the Chronicle, chronically clueless," --Very sharp harpoon, wickedly accurate.