New Yorker: Obama a Better Churchill than Churchill? (Or Bush)

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Amy Davidson of the New Yorker should take up bowling or gardening because history doesn't seem to be her thang, if you will.

In the aftermath of Barack Obama's own false historical reference of famed WWII era English Prime Minister Winston Churchill made during Wednesday's press conference, Davidson jumped to her keyboard to further garble history with an April 30 blog post on her Close Read blog at the New Yorker website.

On Wednesday, Obama made a reference to an "article" he was reading "the other day" wherein he discovered that during WWII Prime Minister Winston Churchill supposedly said "We don't torture." (Transcript of Obama's remarks) The following morning, Davidson praised Obama for his sentiment and waxed envious over the "very good" article from which Obama gleaned the tale.

There is only one little problem with the whole thing: Churchill NEVER said the line that Obama claimed he said. And further, the "very good article" that Davidson praised was erroneous to say so.

This means Obama was wrong, the article was wrong and so was Davidson's blog post.

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Not surprisingly the original article that so badly mussed up history was written by one of the worst hacks in journalism, Andrew Sullivan (whose factually incorrect piece can be seen at The Atlantic).

The truth of the matter is that the British government did employ torture in various instances in the modern era -- we are talking WWII and later. She certainly did not make it a matter of routine, using it only occasionally and certainly not in every instance. But, use it she did all the while making appearances that it was a method that was unacceptable.

In one case, British Colonel Robin “Tin-Eye” Stephens used procedures that many leftists would consider torture today. From starvation to sleep depravation, the Colonel used all methods short of physical harm. The Colonel also constantly threatened execution with his German prisoners as a mental attack. Worse for today’s leftists trying to cite the perfect interrogation techniques, he carried executions out with many of them. The truth is that Colonel Stephens did eschew the use of painful physical torture, but was not shy about psychological torture at all. Again, he did execute prisoners, a fact not lost on the ones that stayed alive in his care.

In another instance of British actions during WWII there was a detention center called "The Cage". This facility has been investigated since the war and it has been revealed that physical torture of its inmates did occur.

What Churchill did know or not know about any of these incidents has never satisfactorily been ascertained. There is also nothing in the Prime Minister’s voluminous writings that would elucidate the matter. So, for Obama and Sullivan to have said that Churchill specifically argued against torturing POWs is simply incorrect.

In any case, here is what Obama said last Wednesday:

I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day talking about the fact that the British during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, "We don't torture," when the entire British — all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat.

And then the reason was that Churchill understood -- you start taking shortcuts, over time, that corrodes what's -- what's best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country.

And I am struck, Mr. President, with the fact that you are completely wrong about Churchill. Let us turn to Richard M. Langworth, prominent Churchillian scholar to hear some actual historical facts.

While it’s nice to hear the President invoke Sir Winston, the quotation is unattributed and almost certainly incorrect. While Churchill did express such sentiments with regard to prison inmates, he said no such thing about prisoners of war, enemy combatants or terrorists, who were in fact tortured by British interrogators during World War II.

And where did Obama get this foolish notion of what Churchill said? The aforementioned hack Sullivan who states it as a fact in his Atlantic article -- despite that no such quote exists -- that Churchill "nonetheless knew that embracing torture was the equivalent of surrender to the barbarism he was fighting."

Here is what Langworth says of Sullivan's hackery on what Churchill "knew":

"Churchill nonetheless knew" appears suddenly and with no evidence to back it up. Sullivan makes no other reference to Churchill, or to how he divined Churchill’s views on torture.

As Jonah Goldberg says in his NRO piece, "Typically, Sullivan’s emotions are getting ahead of his facts." Simply put Sullivan has no facts at his command and merely makes up the whole Churchill "knowing" business. But it suits Obama fine, because facts aren't necessary when you are The One. Isn't it just like President Obama to just say a thing in his authoritative way as if it were true regardless if it is true or not? He loves making pronouncements regardless of the actual facts. And, in true lapdog fashion, Amy Davidson of the New Yorker laps it all up like cream.

So now we get to Davidson's even worse garbling of history. Not only does she regurgitate Obama's false historical reference, she compounds the abuse of history by saying that Bush was more like the spineless, tyrant appeasing Neville Chamberlain than Obama is!

For those unaware, it was English PM Neville Chamberlain that told the world that there was "peace in our times" after a pre-WWII visit to Hitler's Nazi Germany. He signed all sorts of foolish treaties with the Nazis imagining that he had averted war with that belligerent state. The man was a fool, pure and simple. By the way, at the same time Chamberlain was saying how the world was finally at peace, Churchill was decrying Nazi aggressiveness and warning that England should prepare for war. We all know which of the two was right, Chamberlain or Churchill.

Here is Davidson's uninformed foray into historical analysis:

Obama out-Churchilled Bush—not bad, given Bush’s constant and increasingly tedious invocations of the Prime Minister. (Obama may have been citing a very good Andrew Sullivan post.) Bush saw himself as a latter-day Churchill—though there’s an argument that the better parallel is Neville Chamberlain—and put his bust in the Oval Office, saying, “He watches my every move.” Obama ditched it for a bust of Lincoln, which hurt British feelings—back in February, the Telegraph speculated that Obama was mad at Churchill because of the torture of Kenyans, including, perhaps, Obama's grandfather, in the Mau Mau rebellion during his second premiership. So it took the British a few years to realize that Kenyans deserved to be treated like Germans. (And their treatment might not have been so lovely, as Politico points out.) Still, sentiment counts for something. And anyway, we can be better than Churchill.

Aside from being a rather badly written paragraph technically, the references are all so far off from reality that they may as well be considered satire.

We've already discovered above that Sullivan did not have a "very good article." But, it also absurd that Bush was "tedious" in his Churchill "invocations." Yes, Bush referenced Churchill many times, but has anyone seen any other report that bemoaned Bush's Churchill references until now? Was criticism of Bush's "tedious" Churchill references ever a talking point in the past? Was it something often commented upon? Not really. But it does make a great hindsight jab for little Miss Davidson, doesn't it? Suddenly, just because The Obammessiah mentioned Churchill, now Miss Davidson has an excuse to claim Bush was "tedious" when "invoking" Churchill. In truth, the only thing tedious here is Davidson's uninformed and knee jerk Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Next, Davidson says, without bothering to elucidate, that "there’s an argument that the better parallel is Neville Chamberlain" instead of Churchill to compare Bush to. Just like Obama, Davidson just makes a pronouncement regardless of the facts. Could someone, anyone, tell us when Bush went around saying that there is "peace in our times" like Chamberlain did? Of course no one can. The claim is moronic.

Then, she pretends that Obama's assertion that Churchill refused to torture Germans but didn't mind torturing Kenyans is a factual statement. It is not. Yes Kenyans were horribly mistreated under Churchill's tenure, but so were Germans. Yet, in neither case did the British government make hidebound policy that torture was a necessary aspect of their operations. It occurred, was looked away from, was not necessarily sanctioned, and used sparingly or in a quasi-legal manner. In fact, this is a common western reaction to torture. Nearly every western nation has done it and all are squeamish enough about it to sometimes equivocate about it while using it as little as possible. It is also salient that most western nations prosecute their own officials (or those down the ladder) over its use and this should not so easily be ignored. This is quite unlike third world nations such as China or Saddam Huessein's Iraq, where physical torture is an official tool, one that even has official handbooks made to instruct government officials in its use.

Davidson ends her badly reasoned and historically illiterate segment with "anyway, we can be better than Churchill." Winston Churchill had flaws, sure. What human being doesn't? But if this little fool thinks we can so easily be "better" than one of history's greatest leaders, if it is so easy for this opinionist to say that Churchill wasn't worthy, it proves wholly that she knows nothing about Churchill, his times, or ours. Amy Davidson isn't worthy to hold Churchill's coat or to fetch him a nice cup of tea.

... and neither is Barack "I won" Obama.

(Harvard’s Short bio on Amy Davidson)


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Even Hillary was called on

Even Hillary was called on her "ducking fire as they left the helicopter"

But soon to be extinct media wont call out O. Too much invested in their support of him and they are too scared, weak and co-dependent.

Even Hillary was called on

Even Hillary was called on her "ducking fire as they left the helicopter"

That was only because they wanted Obama to take the lead in the primaries, however.  If Hillary had had an insurmountable lead over him from the start, the Old Media would never have called her on that.

“There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.” - Ronald Reagan (1964 Republican Convention)

Why?

Why is it that everyone in the media these days, not to mention Uhbama and his administration, so historically illiterate?  Both in American and world history? 

Back when I was in school, BEFORE the liberals got TOTAL control of the curriculum, I would have FAILED history or social studies or what ever you want to call it these days.  I LOVE history, reading about it, learning and studying it.  It disturbs me and pisses me off that liberals are trying to rewrite history to suit THEIR purposes and ends.

First, it was lying about RECENT history, such as the last 8 years under GWB, and the lies and rewriting of recent history.  Second, lying about world history, saying that ONLY MAN is causing global warming, all the while IGNORING and or rewriting historical documents about the medieval warm period and the little ice age.  ALL of which occurred BEFORE the industrial revolution.  And now it's ignoring and rewriting the history of the past 60 years.

Liberal indoctrination...

Facts and History are anathema to Liberals(liberal is not really applicable, they are Progressives, as in growing the power of government Progressively, although they'll lie about the origin of Progressivism as well.). The Wilson administration(Progressive) wanted the populace educated enough to be good employees and submissive to the state. They've accomplished that over the past hundred years through the teachers unions to dumb down the populace to the point where people look to Jon Stewart, Bill Maher and other entertainers for history and political science.

To cut this short, history is written by the victors, and at present is being rewritten with the funding of George Soros, with the approval of Obama, Pelosi, and all the other Utopian-Socialists. Home schooling and personal education through reading are the only antiseptic I can think of....Kill your television......

Don't Forget

That great populist Wilson also fired all the blacks from civil service effectively setting back race relations.

Wilson the racist

Wislon was well known as an extreme racist.

Be sure and visit my home blog PubliusForum.com.

Liberal Lying

Liberals lie so much today because they have no fear of being exposed anymore. The MSM won’t expose them. I think liberals lying on a large scale started with the Clinton Administration and their motto, How are we going to fool them today?

Red, That is exactly what

Red,

That is exactly what I was thinking...so what we point it out, the truth matters not to the left. Sigh.

The previous comments align

The previous comments align with my sentiment exactly.

The rewriting of history continues apace.

Regarding the "very good article" that The Obama got his "facts" from...Andrew Sullivan's British! so he's obviously correct about Churchill, dontcha know!

Bush as Chamberlain?  Which President went around the world apologizing for hiw own country, bowing to the Saudi King, practically begging to meet with Ahmadinejad, and grinning, glad-handed and hugged Hugo Chavez?  

And anyway, we can be better than Churchill.

Really?  Who's we?   And exactly HOW ?

That's it?  That's her wrapup?  Sounds like those Verizon commercials where the guy or woman gets snippy when they find out the customer has Verizon 3G.

I'm surprised that she didn't end with the standard liberal argument destroyer:  That's a fact.

They might say "Wow, that sucks!"  But at least they'll say "Wow!"  -Duff Goldman, the Ace of Cakes

well - the towels are kinda scratchy.

*pulls a face*

I love to help the helpless but I'm not gonna help the clueless   ~Dennis Miller

YEAH. Obama's father suffered actual torture from CHURCHILL.

His father belonged to those who were tortured by Churchill's British Government due to their subversion and communism.

Your President is an idiot.

Churchill is laughing at his grave. 

Why State the Truth?

Why state the truth when it doesn't serve your purpose? Tele (Obeyme's prompter) decided that he could pull one over on the public by displaying whatever untruth would further his lying-sack-of-crap boss's agenda. Obeyme, then, can just blame it on Tele assuming ANYONE in the media would do a fact check on what he spews.

I get a real kick out of the anti-torture crowd (and what we did was NOT torture) as they question whether the ends justify the means. This administration uses every lie and manipulation possible to advance the socialist agenda. In their minds they will do whatever it takes to the end of a turning America into a socialist country.

Hypocrites to the core. Lying bastards.

Oh! Bama

Obama is certainly more Ward Churchill than Bush ever was.

D

Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.

Ignorance is bliss

America has been "dumbed down" to the point of its president being almost illiterate. Barry's knowledge of history is an embarrassment, but only to literate citizens. Unfortunately, Americans are becoming more ignorant as the years go by. That's how this clown gets away with his crap. The ignorant elected the jerk with the help of a media which consists of the young under-educated, foreigners, and former retail salesmen. Add to this an "educational" system replete with "professionals" who've never studied history, yet dare to "teach" it to our youth.We are witnessing the downfall of a once-great nation. Ignorance is bliss in America today. Sad.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

advice to the MSM

"I always avoid prophesying beforehand, because it is a much better policy to prophesy after the event has already taken place."

– Churchill 

IRA

While in custody, I'm sure that IRA members were given tea and crumpets by many British gov'ts. And not just during the magnanimous Churchill's two ministries.

White House sources?

One of the worst aspects of this is that the Bamster reads the gay blogger Andrew Sullivan and seems to accept what he says. That may give Andy a thrill in places we don't want to know, but it disgusts me. If you even mention something from a conservative blog to a typical liberal they fly into a spittle-spraying rage, but it's okay for the Doofus to do it? And this is a man that has an entire staff to read things for him and check facts and history?

Doesn't Matter

Who cares if Churchill said "we don't torture" or not? Everyone on the Left will embrace and love this article and it's author and everyone one who doesn't can just shut-up-because-we-don't-care-what-you-think.

They're like lawyers - it doesn't matter what's right or wrong, only what works. Nothing's over until they win.

hey

if its good enough for news reporters to get unverified information and use it to their advantage to push their agenda then goshdarnit its good enough for our President. 

I love to help the helpless but I'm not gonna help the clueless   ~Dennis Miller

It looks like the New Yorker

It looks like the New Yorker is jealous they are not yet on the brink of bankruptcy...so they are trying everything in their power to show they are incapable of objective journalism...good job New Yorker, keep writing hack pieces like this and your sure to be out of business well before 2010.

→ OIbama as Churchill

Different situations, same outcome.

Suppose Obama is made aware, through illegal wiretap, that Texas is going to be hit by a massive terrorist strike.

Obama decides it wouldn't be right to defend against the strike because the information was gleaned illegally.

Obama reaches into the Churchill files and pulls out the story of the Coventry bombing in which Churchill withheld information of the strike to maintain the secrecy of Enigma.

Doesn't sound too farfetched to me.

It's hard to talk when you're teabagging - Anderson Cooper

History

I believe this to be the root of the communication problem between Republicans and democrats. Their belief system is built upon a foundation of historical inaccuracies. Educating liberals in history will remove that foundation and force a re-evaluation of their ideals. History, as opposed to politics, seems to me, to be much less of a confrontational discussion, that can subtilely undermine the the foundation of liberal beliefs.

 

Great minds think alike.....and fools seldom differ

What is torture?

If I am a teacher and make you take time out at recess, is that torture? Most of this stuff was so stupidly non-consequential, you would think the average liberal would have shrunk away.  Instead, they torture us with their views.

"What experience and history teach is
this - that people and governments never have learned anything from history,
or acted on principles deduced from it."


G. W. F. Hegel

Churchill's Quotes

Churchill is credited with many great quotes.  My favorite is the time he was being criticized by a woman at a dinner party, because he was drunk.  He replied "You are right, madam, I am drunk.  However, in the morning I will be sober, whereas you will remain quite ugly".

Don't know how this applies to 0bama and the liberal MSM, but I still like it.

nandrelli

i think my favorite was the woman who challeged him with:

"If you were my husband, i'd put poison in your drink"

to which he replied:

"if you were my wife, I'd drink it"

Amy is right.

Obama does make a better Ward Churchill than Ward Churchill.  Oh...wrong Churchill.  Nevermind.

 

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds”

Samuel Adams

Churchill

They are going to compare Obama to Churchill? Really? This shows how ignorant the media is of history. All of Churchill's economic policies were disastrous to Britain. That's why he wasn't reelected by the people. Well hold on... Obama's economic policies will probably have the same effect... maybe they are right.

He was quoting Churchill alright...

Ward Churchill!  Jim Webster