Reuters: Who Felled the Berlin Wall? How 'Bout Bruce Springsteen! (No, They're SERIOUS)

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**UPDATE Below the Fold**

In one of the most ridiculous examples of unbridled hyperbole, Reuters has decided that singer Bruce Springsteen is the one responsible for bringing down the Berlin Wall and ending the Cold War. Yes, that's Bruce "Scorn in the USA" Springsteen, one of the most anti-American rockers on the scene. I know what you're thinking, "But what about Ronald Reagan?" Forget it, man, it's Bruce all the way as far as Reuters is concerned. Maybe it was his gravely warbling that Joshua-like brought those walls tumblin' down, maybe his caterwauling is what turned the trick, but, quite despite any common sense and in a childishly, foolish and overly simplistic review of history, Reuters is sure that Bruce is the hero of Berlin. It is a great example of reductio ad absurdo if there ever was one, not that Reuters is aware of it.

This Reuters piece is so filled with nonsense, so blind to all the complicated political and social influences that really ended the Cold War, that it is hard to know where to start reviewing it. I can but shake my head at its simple minded analysis.

Seriously. Reuters really means it. Oh, don't confuse them with all that economic and political history gobbledegook. It was one concert that ended a generation of communist oppression not the might of the US and its president determined to destroy the "evil empire." It was "Thunder Road" and "Born to Run" sung in that less then melodic Springsteen style that brought the end to the Cold War.

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From the title onward, a half sentient review of history prevails.

"Did Bruce help bring down the Berlin Wall?," the headline asks, with the subhead helpfully telling us that yes is the answer. "His comments at 1988 concert helped fed East Germans' discontent," Reuters earnestly informs us.

See, here is the thing, maybe Bruce's little concert did momentarily add to the zeitgeist of the times, but it had little to do with the final conclusions arrived at. There was no causality. Zip. Nada. In fact, the eventual outcome had already been set in motion before this screeching rocker ever took to the stage.

Just look at the revisionism in this absurd story:

But now -- 20 years after the American rock star went behind the Iron Curtain -- organizers, historians and people who witnessed it say his message came at a critical juncture in German history in the run-up to the Wall’s collapse.

Please, spare us this idiocy.

And look at the puffery they lend to Springsteen.

Springsteen, an influential songwriter and singer whose lyrics are often about people struggling, got permission at long last to perform in East Berlin in 1988.

"Influential" in what way, exactly, Reuters does not say.

All the wild claims of how "important" was the 1988 Springsteen concert in East Berlin aside, there really is one small, almost unnoticeable thing in this story that speaks as to what Bruce Springsteen really is. Tucked into this story are two references that tells us why, exactly, the oppressive East German commies thought that it was a good idea to have Bruce Springsteen come to their benighted city. It was his anti-American political positions.

In two sentences we get the gist of how the East German authorities saw this singer.

Even though his songs are full of emotion and politics, East Germany had welcomed him as a “hero of the working class.” The Communists may have unwittingly created an evening that did more to change East Germany than Woodstock did to the United States.

And...

Dietrich, 63, said Communist party hopes that a small taste of Springsteen might pacify youths backfired. There was even a positive advance review in the Neues Deutschland daily: “He attacks social wrongs and injustices in his homeland.”

In other words, the reason the East German commies thought his appearance might not be such a bad thing is because they felt Springsteen SHARED their principles. They thought they were welcoming a compatriot to their city.

And one of the things Springsteen is reported as having said on stage that night could be construed to show that the East German commies were right.

“I want to tell you I’m not here for or against any government,” Springsteen said, as he pointedly introduced his rendition of the Bob Dylan ballad “Chimes of Freedom.”

He isn't "for or against any government?" He didn't stand against a police state that shot its own citizens just because they wanted to visit another, neighboring country? Bruce wasn't against a state that arrested people, tortured and imprisoned them with no recourse to due process of law? Springsteen wasn't against a country that nearly starved its people to death?

No wonder the East German commies didn't think a Bruce Springsteen concert would threaten their iron grip on the state. They thought he was one of them!

There is so much balderdash in this Reuters piece that I just can't get to each morsel of its blather here. All I can say is that this thing has to be read in its entirety to be believed. Only a full read can make one appreciate the total ignorance of real history and the wild puffery of a self-loathing, over rated singer such as Bruce Springsteen.

(Photo credit: msn.com)

**UPDATE of monumental import**

Stop the presses. It looks like Reuters was behind the curve in assigning the end of the Cold War to a simple songster. The BBC beat Reuters to the punch in 2004 by finding that it was really David Hasselhoff what took down that wall!

Yes, the Hoff, the Hoffenstein, the Hoffmeister, if you will, was really the triumphant Cold Warrior cum warbler.

Did David Hasselhoff really help end the Cold War?

Baywatch star David Hasselhoff is griping that his role in reuniting East and West Germany has been overlooked. So what part, if any, did the hunk in trunks play in ending the Cold War?

Barely a month after the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, the city that had been divided by politics for more than 40 years was united in song...

...You've just GOT to read the rest of this one.

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Bruce

Wow, WTH. WTF? It's not just hyperbole, it's fiction.

The answer to Reuters question is "No."

First, that the invitation took place demonstrated that the government was getting nervous about its position.

The best that can be said about the concert would be that here was a guy generally dissing his homeland, and his homeland didn't have him in jail. "Maybe we can have a country where we can speak freely." The East German authorities, and now Reuters, totally missed that.

If dissidents were encouraged, it was by the existence of the concert itself and not anything Springsteen said or did that night (besides play generally good music). In the grand scheme, that's virtually meaningless.

For those too young to know, the wall came tumblin' down for these reasons:

- What Reagan set in motion, first by holding firm on Pershing, missile defense, and the defense buildup, and second, with his relentless oratory (evil empire, tear down this wall).

- Polish Pope John Paul's visits to Poland (those were the "concerts" that mattered; two million attended his Mass in Victory Square in Warsaw in June 1979).

- The heroism in Poland, beginning in the early 1980s,  of Lech Walesa's Solidarity, supported by Reagan and the AFL-CIO's Lane Kirkland. Poland had national strikes in 1988, and Solidarity's crushed the Communist party in June 1989 elections.

- Hungary's Communist Party agreed to free elections in February 1989. The first tear in the Iron Curtain occurred there in May 1989.

- There were major demonstrations in Prague, Czechoslovakia in March and November 1988.

All of these were influential (the first three were by far the most importnat), and I surely missed a few less important factors and contemporaneous examples.

The wall fell in November 1989.

None of this would have happened without Reagan's determination to defeat Communism. I almost wish he would have done some kind of victory lap in the 1990-1991 time frame. But then Reagan recognized what the role of an ex-Presidents should be, unlike his predecessor and his Vice President's successor.

Cummon, Tom... ya mean a

Cummon, Tom... ya mean a rousing chorus of "Thunder Road" didn't do it?

I'm shocked Reuters would be so far off. They have such a great reputation, after all!

Send him to the middle

Send him to the middle east, he can serenade the jihad right out of them.

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

I would say to have him

I would say to have him personally look for Bin Laden but he probally has personal contact right now.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Bruce in the Middle East

Excellent idea!

How about a concert in Tehran, making Ahmadinejad the guest of honor?

Known for his long shows though, Bruce would have to plan his intermissions around prayer time. 

Can you see him singing, "Red Headed Woman"?

www.benbarrack.com

No you are all wrong,

I remember it well, it was the Beach Boys with California Girls. You all just are not old enough. Ronald Reagan was governor just 2 years later. LOL

 

This is ridiculous.  I have

This is ridiculous.  I have nothing against Bruce S. because everyone is entitled to their own opinion in our beloved country; even if your opinion is to HATE the exact country that gives you that right in the first place.  But Bruce S. is nothing more than a washed up musician that is struggling with an identity crisis.  His relevance to anything OTHER than "Born In The USA" is non-existent. Did he even have any other hits besides that one song???

I am no

Well, I am no Springsteen fan. I feel he is over rated something fierce. In fact, there is only one reason he became a hit act in the 80s. The 1980s were filled with groups called "the culture of mike and the men with seagull hats" and they were all synthpop, 80s garbage. NO real rock-n-roll was being made by anyone at the time. Then came Springsteen and Johnny Cougar's Mellonkamp and these two became instant hits because they were the only American groups trying REAL rock music at the time.

Some of the worst music ever came from the last few years of the 70s (disco) and all through the 80s. So, Mellenkamp and Springsteen seemed good at the time because there just wasn't anything to compare them to.

Now, he had "Born in the USA," and "The River." Those were hits, of course. He sold great guns for a while. But, since the late 80s he has given us little of note.

But, let's face reality here. Springsteen was NEVER an "influential" singer. He started no musical trends. He never became a spokesman for his generation and he had no longevity, no legs to his career. He was big in the 80s and that was that. He has not made new generations love him and he's given us no follow up to "The River" that really made any impact.

All in all, Bruce Springsteen was a flash in the 80s pan that did not translate to iconic status for successive generations.

On top of that he couldn't carry a tune with the crap voice of his if it had a handle on it.

Not that I have much to say on that.

Hey WTH...

...Ted, the "Motorcity madman" Nugent continued his career well into and beyond the 80's. So there was much more out there than just the "new-wave" trash. And talk about a true patriot... :-)

Not to mention, Motley Crue,

Not to mention, Motley Crue, (yeah, Theater of Pain was painful to see image wise, but the tunes were good), and Guns-n-Roses came out in the mid to late eighties. While the "look" of the glam was...um...disturbing, the many musicians in those bands were quite good. Dokken, with George Lynch, comes to mind. And, if your were into thrash at that time, well good times indeed: Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Exodus, Anthrax, Testament, many others. While most of these bands never saw any radio play, they were exellent at what they did. There was good music in the eighties, you just had to turn off the radio and MTV and head to the record stores to find it.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

IRON MAIDEN BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN...

RESTLESS 1,

This story is a little goofy, did Springsteen play some small part in all of this, maybe. With emphisis on the word small. However, there was at least 1 very major music act that did play behind the Iron Curtain in 1984. It was Iron Maiden during their World Slavery Tour. This was a time when the only way to get their music in communist europe was illegal black market tapes. How could the youth of Poland, Hungary, & Czechoslovakia back in the day know all the songs from Maiden back then when you could'nt purchase a legal copy of their music? If you want to see the proof of their tour in 84 behind the Iron Curtain, get "Live After Death" on DVD, it might be the best live metal performance of it's era, but it comes with a 2nd DVD documenting the eastern european leg of that tour. They also have footage of them performing at a Polish wedding playing "Smoke On The Water". It's very funny, actually.

I believe there were many reasons that communism fell in europe, Reagan's military build-up, Bin Laden in Afganistan, & the Polish Labor Unions with help of Pope John Paul II all played their part. But I do believe at the very base, western music that the youth, who are supposed to be the future, listened to even though it was not just looked down upon, but were more or less illegal to listen to played it's part. If Iron Maiden, or Bruce Springsteen played a small role in pushing the wall down, more power to them. But at least remember who actually went "behind enemy lines" to perform there, it was'nt "The Boss", it was Iron Maiden, "Eddie", & the boys who did that.

BTW, just saw Maiden in Chicago in June, best show I have ever been to. The setlist was all classics, the band sounded great, & the crowd was loud. A good time was had by all. They are still at the top of their game, & if you get the chance, see them. Well worth the money.

 

"...it's still We The People, Right?"  Megadeth 

I have no clue how I forgot

I have no clue how I forgot the NWOBHM, other than I was at work when I posted and was pressed for time. I remember thinking that Iron Maiden must be the most powerful band anywhere for pulling that tour off. I wanted to be Iron Maiden so bad. And they still have the coolest concert tees anywhere. Too many castigate the music of the eighties. They just weren't listening in the right places.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

I was in middle school/high

I was in middle school/high school during the early-mid '80s (emergence of the MTV-era) so I have somewhat of an affection for the music of this era. Some of it was paperthin and throwaway, but some of it I feel has been underrated because of its popularity during this era. Men at Work is one of the great underrated bands because of this.

My collection of music from this era (1980-85) is vast, and guaranteed to bring a smile to the face of anyone who grew up during this time.

And if you listen for too long at what passes for hit music today, you'll be begging to pop a good ol' Duran Duran disc on the hi-fi.

Having said that, Bruce Springsteen never did anything for me. I've developed a small appreciation for some of his earlier work, but I never got why he was elevated to icon status. I preferred John C. Mellencamp myself. It always seemed like anyone who remade a Springsteen song did a better job of it (Manford Mann, even Frankie G.T.H. upstaged in its "Born to Run" remake, IMHO.)

I do think calling Springsteen "anti-American" is a bit harsh. "anti-anyone-who-disagrees-with-my-point-of-view", absolutely. Annoying to the point of having no desire to ever see him in concert, you bet.

Oops, gotta go. Kajagoogoo just came up on the iPod.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Another '80s music fan

Duran Duran sounds like sophisticated genius compared to what passes for Top 40 pop these days.  (Actually, they are terrific musicians although a bit glammy for the testosterone rock crowd.)  They can laugh all they want at Flock of Seagulls but the same era also produced U2 and The Police.  Two acts, by the way, that are far better and more iconic than Bruce Boresteen. 

Springsteen

 

And he supported John Kerry.

www.benbarrack.com  

He had one called "Mister

He had one called "Mister Gorbachev tear down that wall" didn't you ever hear it? I think it was released as a single.

 

Kinda reminds me of

Kinda reminds me of prepubescent girls fainting at Beatles concerts. Was this written for Reuters by a young intern with stars in her eyes and a big, heartaching crush on Bruth Springstheen?

Hmmm

Considering that Bruce's "day" was over a decade past, I'd say it was no "young intern." Perhaps, like most Elvis fans, it was a grossly overweight, past middle aged intern who was still giddy at her childhood memories of rock-n-roll! The music ringing in her ears with the benefit of gauzy memory as opposed to clear reality.

Now there's a...

...scary picture. Thanks for that!

Don't you remember? The

Don't you remember? The Beatles cured polio and put a man on the moon. 

They were really good.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Oh come on!!

This is another example in our feel good gotta have it now culture and the elevation of the artist to an absurd level. I admit it I am a fan of the Boss. I think Thunder Road is an example of a merge of poetry and music at its best, but come on now!!

This reminds me of an argument I had a few years ago with a philosophy major. I pointed out that when ever science had made great strides in under standing how our universe worked that philosophers had to come to terms with the new reality. My friend on the other hand was convinced that science followed philosophy. That science had to redefine reality to compliment the new philosophies.

At the turn of the 19th to the 20th century there was a revolution under way in science. The extistence of the atom, sub-atomic particles (Electron, Proton, Neutron) were more or less proven. Einstien in 1905 began a twenty year journey that would re-define the universe as we understood it. Most of the famous scientitsts whose names we all learned in school were reshaping everything.

Philosophers worked hard to understand the implications, and as usual got most of it wrong. Marx and his totally ignorant form of political philosophy is a case in point. Most of these guys tried to elevate science in thier thinking and design a scientific type of government but completely left out Human Nature. Due to thier hubiris the 20th century will be remembered as one of the bloodiest in human history.

The humanities have always looked down on the Science and Technical studies. They have always thought themselves superiour to the rest. This completely distorted relationship has led directly to the problems we are facing today. Man Made Global warming is an example. Today the Green Philosophy is driving the boat. Hacks that buy into this tripe are trying to use science to support this stupid philosophy that elevates nature over man.

Now we see the latest example where the artisit has been elevated to a point that is beyond belief. I think it is important to have the humanities. It gives a way to put all that has occured in context, but it has never been the driver, only the passenger. The founders of our great country were Scientists , Engineers, Surveyors, Farmers, and of course Attorneys to name just a few proffesions. They believed in concrete results and understood the nature of human beings and designed a goverment that would take this into consideration.

Yes an artist can inspire, but they don't get anything real done. That has to be accomplished on the ground by people willing to get thier hands dirty.

Let aside your distorted

Let aside your distorted abstract of the article. Let aside your weird imagination that Ronald Reagan was the most important political person causing the fall of the berlin wall. What really disgusts me here is that you don't give credit to those who deserve it. Those people in the streets of Berlin and Leipzig, they brought the wall down, not american or german or russian politicians. They were risking their lives for more freedom. And if you look into history, they were as fond of american politics as the ruling communist parties. But, and to know that you have to know somebody, who actually lived in that place, these people were heavily influenced by american culture and also by the rare appearences of musicians in the GDR. So if your hatred for Bruce Springsteen, and that is all your article shows, goes so far, please acknowledge, that there have been people for whom Springsteen impersonated (rightfully or not) the things they desired. In giving credit this piece of Reuters is far better than you.

I am a fan of Springsteen,

I am a fan of Springsteen, not his politics though. Pres. Reagan was the driving force behind it. Yes the people are the ones that eventually "tore" down the wall, but if not for Reagan. They deserve the credit, but where did the idea come from? They did see what a free society and it's culture can offer, like it or not Springsteen was a part of the culture they saw. But to gloss over the importance of Reagan is to re-write history.

I like his music, but he as

I like his music, but he as an individual, sucks.

I used to like his music...

I used to like his music a lot.  Big fan at one time.  One reason was that he seemed smart enough to stay out of politics as an entertainer.

Then something snapped...   I can't even stand the sound of his voice anymore.   I believe he said in 2004, "I have a lot of poltical credit and I expect to spend it," said in reference to his holding back his views for so long.

whack job

www.benbarrack.com

Let aside your distorted

Let aside your distorted assumption of what I was saying OTHER than what is clearly in the article. Let aside your weird desire to assume arguments not even discussed that someone said that the people of Berlin had nothing to do with the wall coming down. What really disgusts me here is your desire to pretend someone said something against the common folk of Berlin and East Germany.No one here said that the common people had nothing whatever to do with the wall coming down. But your inability to credit Ronald Reagan at all is absurd and as bad a reading of history as Reuters imagining that a singer single handedly brought down a symbol of one of the most oppressive regimes of history. So, your hatred for Ronald Reagan, and that is all your reply shows, goes too far. In giving Reagan no credit and Springsteen too much you make a fool of yourself.

Have a great day and thanks for showing us that it isn't only Reuters that revels in their own stupidity.

All Hail The Proletariot

Warner, you and your weird imagination...

Get with the program: Reagan was just a cardboard cutout, dontcha know?

blogi'nHater, I suppose the next thing you are going to tell us

...is that Jimmy Carter scared the Iranians into releasing the hostages.

Government revisionist education-gotta love it!

The truth is insensitive. - Neal Boortz

Blogonator, were you born this clueless

or did you have to work at it?  If the good citizens of Berlin or Leipzig brought down the wall, why didn't they do it 40 years earlier??  No, Reagan beat the Soviet Union and it kills liberals who cannot bring themselves to admit anything good about him.

Strength is what keeps the world and the US safe.  Did you notice a contrast between Carter and Reagan?  The Iranians did.  The Soviet Union did.

As for Springsteen, I believe you have to be a NJ yankee to really like him.  I was given free tickets to one of his shows 5 years ago.  I came, I saw, I yawned.  Left after about 4 three-chord songs.

Now I am sticking closer to Texas honky-tonk and not that Nashville pop-country crap.

Jeff Lebowski

www.angrywhitedude.com

b-o-n

Let aside your distorted abstract of the article. Let aside your weird imagination that Ronald Reagan was the most important political person causing the fall of the berlin wall.

BN - You're a laugh riot.

Ronald Reagan WAS the most important political person causing the fall of the Berlin Wall. Just ask the people who were behind the Iron Curtain.

You did me a favor, though; I don't think I've saved this tribute to Reagan from Lech Walesa, one of the "people in the streets." Now I have. You should too, because it should TOTALLY disabuse you of your distorted view (I detect a high possibility of a closed mind, however).

Here's the money quote:

The 1980s were a curious time--a time of realization that a new age was upon us. Communism was coming to an end. It had used up its means and possibilities. The ground was set for change. But this change needed the cooperation, or unspoken understanding, of different political players. Now, from the perspective of our time, it is obvious that like the pieces of a global chain of events, Ronald Reagan, John Paul II, Margaret Thatcher and even Mikhail Gorbachev helped bring about this new age in Europe. We at Solidarity like to claim more than a little credit, too, for bringing about the end of the Cold War.

Yeah, but what does he know? (/sarc)

The "ground is set" in Cuba today, but notice how nothing has happened. Surely you don't think the Cuban people are content under tyranny. Overthrow needs a catalyst. Four more years of Reagan might have taken down Fidel, but instead we've had three presidents who think, with one exception in one country, that totalitarian regimes "naturally" fall. No, they must be pushed. All the feel-good concerts in the world are at best ancillary.

No one ever said the "people in the streets" were unimportant, in any event.

John Paul was the most important religious person. Walesa said, when the Pope died, that John Paul was the most important of all:

“Fifty percent of the collapse of communism is his doing,” Lech Walesa, founder of the Solidarity movement that toppled communism in Poland in 1989-90, told The Associated Press on Friday. Without the pope’s leadership, “communism would have fallen, but much later and in a bloody way,” he said.

Of course you knew better. It was the musicians, man! (/sarc)

Kindly go revise history somewhere else.

Excellent Excellent Post Tom Blumer

and a great compliment to WTH's excellent blog. I really don't have much to add because everyone has said it all.

I just wanted to express my love of WTH's coverage of this and your important additions. His made me laugh at the left's absurd claims of Rocks stars and Actors as heroes and yours made me remember the poignant history as it was and how both Regan and The Pope were instrumental.

Blogonator is a real riot. He doesn't criticize the article from taking credit away from the East German people, he criticizes WTH! What a joke.

 

Brace yourself, Lech.

Interesting comments by Walesa: 

The 1980s were a curious time--a time of realization that a new age was upon us. Communism was coming to an end. It had used up its means and possibilities. The ground was set for change. But this change needed the cooperation, or unspoken understanding, of different political players. Now, from the perspective of our time, it is obvious that like the pieces of a global chain of events, Ronald Reagan, John Paul II, Margaret Thatcher and even Mikhail Gorbachev helped bring about this new age in Europe. We at Solidarity like to claim more than a little credit, too, for bringing about the end of the Cold War. [emphasis mine]

John Paul was the most important religious person. Walesa said, when the Pope died, that John Paul was the most important of all:

“Fifty percent of the collapse of communism is his doing,” Lech Walesa, founder of the Solidarity movement that toppled communism in Poland in 1989-90, told The Associated Press on Friday. Without the pope’s leadership, “communism would have fallen, but much later and in a bloody way,” he said.

 

Uh-oh....After being personally excoriated by Warner a couple of months ago for having the temerity to suggest that--while Reagan deserved most of the credit for ending the Cold War and causing the eventual dissolution of the Soviet empire--Gorbachev was also instrumental, I assume Walesa will now be subjected to similar scorn.

Indeed, one must infer that Walesa quantifies Reagan's contrbution at something less than fifty per cent, inasmuch as said share is assigned to John Paul II, while the remainder is distributed among Reagan, Thatcher, Gorbachev, and Solidarity.

Brace yourself, Lech.

Jer

Jer - I don't know how you gleam that Gorbachev

was instrumental out of that statement. He's listed last with the "even" qualifier.

Gorbachev only helped by accident. He did what he thought would help him hold on to power. All the other players actively worked for freedom.

I had a nice discussion with WTH about this subject in his blog about China and Tibet.

We ended up in a discussion about market reforms causing freedom and even though we disagreed a little, we both agree that Gorbechev only helped by accident. He wasn't some great guy to be admired like Regan and the rest.
I don't think what Walesa said here contradicts mine or Warner's thoughts about Gorbechev.

Dee... Just to make sure

Dee...

Just to make sure I understand your point:  Is it your contention that Walesa believed Gorbachev exerted not even the slightest positive influence in ushering in this "New Age" in Europe to which he alludes, or in bringing an end to the Cold War--that it was all the unintended consequences of malevolent motives...much like Hitler's declaration of war against America ultimately lead us out of the Great Depression?

Jer

Jer - how you got that from what I said is mind baffling

I didn't say anything of the sort. First I don't purport to know anymore about what Walesa believed than what you quoted. That quote does not imply in any way that Gorbachev was instrumental. With his status of being listed last and the qualifier "even" it makes him the least substantial figure in all those he mentioned.

Your analogy of Hitler curing our depression example is so out in left field. I'm not going to get into some long discussion about the causes and cures of the Great Depression other than to say that past ones we had like in 1907 and 1920 were short lived and cured by doing nothing. The 1929 Depression lasted a long time due to many stupid policies by both Dems and Reps. The Economy started expanding in 1938 well before our getting involved in the war and it stopped expanding early in 1945 before the war ended of the war. Attributing the war as the cure is inaccurate.

With Gorbachev and the cold war, things were already crumbling around him because of an inherently bad system and because of the political actions of Regan and Spiritual inspiration of The Pope. He had no choice but to try some reforms.
With the U.S. and the Depression, things were on the upswing before the war and we would have recovered without it. The only valid comparison between the two situations is that the U.S. recovery would have happened without Hitler and the Cold war would have ended without Gorbachev.

 

Dee...I am not absolutely

Dee...I am not absolutely sure what Walesa had in mind.  I merely repeated Tom's quotes, read the articles he linked, and drew inferences from that and from what I know of Gorbachev's policies.  But, in my opinion, Walesa was also giving Gorbachev at least some credit for the positive geopolitical developments he referenced.  Do you honestly believe the Cold War would have ended when it did if the hardliners had remained in control of the Soviet government instead of Gorbachev?

I'll concede my Hitler/Depression comparison was a little extreme.  I was simply using an overdrawn analogy to emphasize my point.

I will be gone for a few days.  Not sure I'll have site access.  Have a good weekend.

Jer 

You too Jer

hopefully you are going somewhere for pleasure.

I think it would have taken longer with the hardliners but it would have still happened.

Governments bad, Bruce good

Bruce to Reuters:

"You ain't a beauty, but, ah, you're alright."

Bruce Blows

This dude was a commercial wannabe when I was in high school in the early 80's.  And I completely agree, Mr. Huston, that the music scene for the late 70's and much of the 80's was horrid.

I do recall the Born in the USA tour during my senior year in high school and the "faux-fervor" that went along with it.  What a joke.  The people I knew that went to see him were the types that, albeit good people, had no identity of their own.  They so desparately wanted to "belong" to something.  I am sure there were some kool aid drinkers that thought Brucey was "da bomb" but for the most part - naaahh.  By the way, do you remember the T-shirt from the 80's -- If Bruce is the boss, then I quit"? 

Sorry, I cannot stand the guy - IMHO, his music sucks, he is an arrogant, condescending guy that thinks he knows what is best for all of us and his music sucks.  Did I mention his music sucks? 

What was this article about again?

Gosh

Gosh... HOW could you not stand him? After all, Reuters just said he ended the Cold War and cured cancer with just ONE concert!

I feel so ashamed

. . . . so, dirty for having written my previous post.  I clearly do not understand the genius, the magnanimosity, the sheer godliness, of the boss.

You BETTER

You BETTER be chastened. Now check my update and be further amazed.

ANTS MARCHING...

 kdizzydaze,

You are exactly right about people wanting to belong to something. Springsteen is a legend, I'm not fan of the guy, but he is a legend, & that is why I think many of the masses did follow him. Sounds a little like all of those Dave Mathews Band fans I see out there if you ask me.

I actually understand some of the appeal to DMB, I am not a fan of Mathews by any stretch, but his band is incredable from a technical standpoint. I cannot stand Mathews singing & I'm no fan of their writing. I said I understand the appeal because I am a fan of Rush, & many who know how good they are musically, might not like Geddy Lee's vocals or their writing. To each their own I guess. I saw them in St.Paul in May, top shelf stuff. Neil Peart is the greatest drummer, EVER.

I think Springsteen is overrated beynd belief, but I will say this, when an act does 3 hour shows at almost every gig they do, that is good value for money if you are into him. My sister & he fiance saw them a couple of months ago, & loved it, whatever...

 

 

"...it's still We The People, Right?"  Megadeth 

He was practically Dylan Thomas

 "Madman drummers bummers and Indians in the summer with a teenage diplomat
In the dumps with the mumps as the adolescent pumps his way into his hat
With a boulder on my shoulder, feelin' kinda older, I tripped the merry-go-round
With this very unpleasing sneezing and wheezing, the calliope crashed to the ground"

Now there's some heavy lyrics man. So profound my head spins. I think this was why they called him The Boss.

Remember when he did the Madonna-like make-over. Went from scrawny Bob Dylan clone, took a bunch of steroids and re-invented himself as Arthur Fonzarelli?

               A gun in your hand beats a cop on the phone.

Bruce Springsteen

He was another musician who started out okay and then got full of himself. His old school stuff like Dancing in the Dark was pretty good but then he started going downhill.

As far as pop rock goes, Bryan Adams, Cyndi Lauper, Pat Benetar and Tom Petty outshine him every time.

But here's the thing about Berlin - now that Reagan is gone and new generations are coming up, there's important work to be done of deciding exactly who [on the left] can take credit for beating the USSR. So far they've tried Charlie Wilson and Bruce Springsteen.They'll keep offering up different theories until they find one that sticks and then that will be taught to our children in schools.

"But here's the thing

"But here's the thing about Berlin..." 

Berlin?

Well OK, "Sex (I'm a...)," "No More Words" and "Metro" were pretty good songs. But by the time they got to Top Gun's "Take My Breath Away," they were so schmaltzy that I couldn't take them seriously anymore.

Oh, wait. You meant the city.

Never mind.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Hollywood behind most historical events!

HIDDEN HISTORY.

We are not being told the truth about the real movers and shakers in history.

Most major events had the hidden hand of the entertainment industry behind them.


ELVIS PRESLEY
(not President Kennedy) took all the major decisions and helped avert the threat of nuclear war during the Cuban Missile crisis.


THE BEATLES
(not President Nixon) negotiated the peace treaty with North Vietnam to end the Vietnam War. Although it is commonly thought they disbanded in 1969, this was a ruse to provide cover for the cheeky Liverpudlian Mop Tops to conduct their secret diplomacy. Let It Be.


AL JOLSON
(not FDR) had the idea for the New Deal.

The list is endless.

Vote 4 change. Vote 4 anything. See Jack & Mr Shy's first campaign ad for the ONLY viable 3rd party candidate.

Jack, not only are you the

Jack, not only are you the wrathful god of counter-terrorism, you are also the esteemed czar of intelligence gathering.

All Hail, JB!

mass -- this is what

mass -- this is what happens when you're in the loop, like wot I am.

If you want to know who REALLY killed Kennedy, meet me at the underpass just off the PCH, Nepethne, tom --- TRANSMISSION TERMINATED..

Vote 4 change. Vote 4 anything. See Jack & Mr Shy's first campaign ad for the ONLY viable 3rd party candidate.

Sweet! An insider... I'll

Sweet! An insider... I'll be there.

Pssst... Can I bring my secret decoder ring? After saving up all those boxtops I haven't had a reason to use it yet.

A Telecaster, a pair of Levi's and The Boss!

To think I had it wrong all these years ... I thought it was President Reagan, The Pope, and Lech Wałęsa?

 

And Margaret Thatcher also.

And Margaret Thatcher also.

Twenty lashes for me ...

Twenty lashes for me ... good call!

No lashes, just buy me a

No lashes, just buy me a nice glass of Berliner Weiser--my favorite adult beverage when I was stationed in Berlin. ;+}

I read somewhere that the

I read somewhere that the German people were going to build a memorial to Ronald W. Reagan in Berlin. The article didn't say a thing about Sprinsteen. The people of Germany especially those that were in the East at the time know who helped set them free.  

Be kind to your kids. They'll be choosing your nursing home.

Michael Reagan ....

.... has pushed for it, but there's no way to tell from the article how much popular support there is for it. They didn't ask anyone, which is normally a media clue that there probably is support (if there were opponents, I would guess they would have been quoted).

The Wall Came Tumbling Down

Sorry, Reuters, the wall began to crumble when Hungary elected a non-communist government and opened its borders with Austria, which made the first tear in the wall. East Germany followed suit shortly after. I don't remember Bruce playing a concert in Hungary, do you?

Michael Jackson just called

And he's miffed that the moonwalk got NO CREDIT!

WTH

Actually it was this terrific triumvirate that brought down the wall:
- Bruce
- Hasselhoff
- Ted Turner (as noted by Brent Baker here at NB in Sept. 2006)

music that inspired

If we're discussing music that moved the peoples of eastern Europe to know that Americans cared for them, the best example is this, with its melancholy tone and lyrics with real depth.

Take the time to watch the original video - it'll still give you goosebumps. Too bad Reuters doesn't remember it.

→ My prediction

Laugh if you want.  But you heard it first from me.

When the World Trade Center rises again, REUTERS will claim it was direct result of a TV commercial featuring a bunch of old men sitting around picking bluegrass and singing a lyrically updated version of "Viva Las Vegas"

I'm sorry.  I forgot conservatives can't be funny.

  • LYDSEXICS UNTIE

Springsteen just another hypocritical elite

Another wealthy advocate of income redistribution and big government.  The complete ignorance of it all..

The system that made him wealthy isn't good enough for him.  No doubt, he wants his wealth to be untouchable while everyone else's should be fair game..

Unless he's willing to give it all back to the government, he's a hypocrite I have no respect for.

It's called socialism, Bruce.

Quick, put the wall back up so Russia doesn't learn about it.

www.benbarrack.com  

Fall of Wall / Rise of Islamo-facism

There are some who attribute the rise of Islamo-facism to the vacuum left by the fall of the Soviet Union.

Way to go, Bruce.  So YOU'RE the one responsible for the rise in Jihadism?!

I knew I didn't like you.

www.benbarrack.com  

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