You know, I was wondering when this was going to happen, when someone in the MSM would say Bush has ruined July Fourth? The Philadelphia Inquirer didn't disappoint by wallowing in the worst example of blame-America-above-all as well as the most extreme case of BDS that I've seen outside the kind of nutroot sites like Daily Kos and the Democratic Underground. A mainstream paper has now gone that extra mile to let us all know that America does not deserve a July Fourth celebration this year because of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, CIA secret prisons, and, lest you imagine otherwise, the fact that we have made George W. Bush our president. "Cancel the parade" because America is evil. It's all there in all it's anti-American splendor in A not-so-glorious Fourth, U.S. atrocities are unworthy of our heritage.
Inquirer columnist Chris Satullo thinks that America is fraught with sin and that we don't deserve a Fourth celebration. "This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate its birthday," he whines. "This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement."
We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.
We've "spit on the memory" of the Founders? Does he mean when the Democratic Party helped us lose Vietnam? How about when liberals somehow divined in the Founder's name a "right to privacy" in the Constitution? Were either of those times when we spit in their faces? How about when the American left destroyed religion in America, or when they invented a "right" to abortion, or when they turned our various systems of education into places where fringe, wackos reign supreme and American history, civics and... well, anything actually educational... is banished into the mists of the past? Does Our pal Chris Satullo mean those times when the Founders saw the spittle fly?
You can guess that no is the answer to my questions.
No, to Chris Satullo, the only time we've "spit on the memory" of the founders is when we reacted to the time when 3,000 of our own were killed in New York City by Islamic terrorists. He is all upset that we've tortured prisoners, illegally imprisoned people "for years," and practiced "rendition."
The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.
The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.
The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.
Satullo hits all the anti-American, leftist tropes to be sure.
And, guess who's fault it is? (Cue the dramatic music...)
We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.
Bingo, right for the Bush Derangement Syndrome.
And what did that eeeevil Bushitler do?
Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.
Outrageously Satullo calls the War on Terror a "scam."
And all for a scam. The waterboarding, the snarling dogs, the theft of sleep - all the diabolical tricks haven't made us safer. They may have averted this plot or that. But they've spawned new enemies by the thousands, made the jihadist rants ring true to so many ears.
9/11 must have been an illusion. The War on Terror is merely a Bush lie, apparently.
And Satullo's idiocy isn't close to being expended. He also has to misappropriate the history of the Founders for his socialist inspired, Peace-in-our-times, blather.
The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts.
Apparently, Satullo doesn't think the nation had anything to fear on the afternoon of 9/11? And as to the real history of the Revolution, need I remind Satullo that the British neither intended, nor had the capability of killing 3,000 Americans with one incident? Might we have had a right to take measures against a foe that killed many thousands with a single strike?
Then Satullo goes on and on about "human rights" as if WE are the guilty party on that level, as if the U.S. can be compared to Islamofascists who send children to blow themselves up, who cut off the heads of live prisoners, who have manuals on torture, and who have no respect at all for human life on any level?
I might also want to direct this historically illiterate columnist to the real historical record of the American Revolution where tax men were covered in boiling tar and sent screaming back to their tax houses that were burnt down around them by colonists showing their ire against the crown. I might show Satullo where General George Washington summarily hanged spies and shot deserters and traitors. I might alert him to the vicious internecine fighting between Colonists loyal to the Crown and those Patriots that were rising up against them.
I could show this man where Revolutionary history -- the REAL history, not the sanitized, fake one he is selling in order to beat up George W. Bush -- was quite vicious and mean. It WAS war, after all, and at a time when people still knew how to fight a war to actually kill the enemy.
Anyway, this simple minded claptrap is all full of laments and moaning, but no where is there any real logic and no deeper discussion of the real historical record is offered. Neither is there any introspection that his fellow travelers are the ones responsible in the first place for casting us in the very situations he bemoans.
Satullo ends with his most earnest attempt at piety.
Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our Founders. May we earn a new birth of courage before our nation's birthday next rolls around.
Humility? He doesn't know the definition of the word. For a man who so obviously has no clue about history and who so blatantly wants to steal the luster of the Founding Fathers to burnish his cracker jack prize of a crown is certainly an outrage. For him to wag his America hating finger in all our faces on the day we are to celebrate our freedom from tyranny is the height of hubris.
Still, I know that Satullo is quite sincere in his hatred of the United States. In fact, I'm sure he feels this low at every July Fourth celebration. July Fourth is probably a black day for him no matter who is president. I feel bad for his heartburn, but that he spews his bile for the rest of us to be bothered with is downright unneighborly.
Happy July Fourth, folks. Be proud of this great nation, Satullo's nonsense aside. The U.S.A. is still the shining light on a hill shining the light of freedom on all the world. Anti-Americans like Satullo might have blinders on, but for those willing to see, we stand like a rock.
Unfurl those flags and let freedom wave.




















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Another personal note...
July 1, 2008 - 19:43 ET by Warner Todd HustonI know, I know. I promised I was going on vacation with my post earlier this morning. But, this No July Fourth piece in the Philly inquirer incensed me. You should have seen what I WANTED to write!
So, I'm off to Gettysburg. See you all next week. Same bat time, same bat channel. (am I showing my age there?)
(am I showing my age
July 1, 2008 - 19:53 ET by Chris Norman(am I showing my age there?)
Nah. You must have seen Batman in repeats on TV Land, right?
BTW, The uber left might blame Bush this go-around, but they already were permanently ashamed of our country, for the warped reasons only their twisted, ungrateful minds can grasp.
Oh, yeah...
July 1, 2008 - 19:55 ET by Warner Todd HustonOh, yeah. "TV Land."
(Um that's one of them cable channel thingies, right?)
Yes. You may have
July 1, 2008 - 20:18 ET by Chris NormanYes. You may have inadvertently turned to it, while looking for C-Span, the Greek Tragedy Channel, or other such high brow fare. :)
Have a wonderful vacation. I have to be out of town and actually work on Independence Day and on over the weekend. Have a hot dog and light a sparkler for me.
Gettysburg, what a perfect
July 1, 2008 - 20:11 ET by DEVILDOCMOMplace to celebrate the 4th. We were there last year doing some genealogical research...most of my family way back is from PA. Gettysburg is so moving, I know you will have a wonderful time.
The failed media continues to show me why they are failing and I hope the inquirer leads the way. I simply cannot believe what this loser wrote. It is shocking and so wrong in so many ways. I am proud to be an American and always have been, tho' I am unhappy to say this guy is an American.
These people just make me
July 1, 2008 - 20:40 ET by motherbeltThese people just make me ill. That this garbage comes from the "Cradle of Liberty" makes it even more nauseating.
On the other hand, have a great visit to Gettysburg. Will you be there for the re-enactment?
The whole place is amazing...and very moving. It makes you go quiet. When we went there, we had an amazing guide for the bus tour; that made it really great.
Too bad the Cyclorama won't be opened again yet...they are still restoring it. It's supposed to open again in the fall.
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
Yes
July 1, 2008 - 20:42 ET by Warner Todd HustonI will be there for the big reenactment.
Of course you will! That's
July 1, 2008 - 21:22 ET by motherbeltOf course you will! That's why you're going NOW!!
DUH!
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
I better be...
July 1, 2008 - 21:37 ET by Warner Todd HustonI'm commanding a 200 man battalion there. They might get a bit upset if the Colonel doesn't show up!
;)
I'll bet there will be a lot of Confederate Battle Flags there
July 1, 2008 - 22:11 ET by Britcomthe libs will surely be horrified.
Which side will you be commanding?
Will there be pics?
---
Sen. John McCain (2003):
"...I am proud to say that I was born in your country.&
Sure
July 1, 2008 - 22:15 ET by Warner Todd HustonConfederate and I'm sure there will be a lot of pics.
Wow! What an amazing
July 1, 2008 - 22:16 ET by motherbeltWow! What an amazing experience!!
And I thought you were just going as a tourist!
Gosh, I feel silly now. I must have missed your posting where you explained it earlier.
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
Been reenacting for 25 years
July 1, 2008 - 22:20 ET by Warner Todd HustonBeen reenacting for 25 years now. This is my last year in command (been doing that for 18 years). I've been a Colonel for 11 years and have overall commanded at events since the 1980s. This year I retire.
I've commanded from 120 men to 1,500 at one event or another. Traveled all across the country doing it. Seen many of the nation's great battlefields. It's been great fun. Met some interesting folks.
But, my writing has been cutting into it so heavily that I've decided to settle down with the keyboard and give up the field.
I also give about 30 or 40 school lectures about the Civil War history to middle schoolers each year. That I ain't quittin'.
(Oh, and you didn't miss that posting where I explained it. This is the first I've ever mentioned it here on NB.)
Well, I guess
July 1, 2008 - 22:46 ET by DEVILDOCMOMI didn't need to mention how great it was and how moving...you know much better than I. If I have any Civil War questions, I will be certain to ask you. :)
Just logged on...
July 2, 2008 - 01:11 ET by HillbillyKingand caught the exchange about Gettysburg. I walked the route of Pickett's charge last summer and was overcome with the bravery those men exhibited to have attempted (and damn near succeeded) such a thing. I applaud you, Mr. Huston, for helping keep alive a visceral reminder of the price that was paid to ensure those noble ideals put forth 232 years ago remain intact today.
In fact, I do believe I will unfurl the ol' Stars and Bars right along side Old Glory and encourage Mr. Satullo and those of his ilk to kiss my 4th of July celebratin ass!!
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
Gettysburg
July 2, 2008 - 09:39 ET by KC MulvilleThe re-enactments are great, but if you ever get a chance to go there without the crowds, it's a really powerful experience. I live about and hour and a half away, and a few years ago, I had the chance to visit. Like the battle, it was hot weather. You see the landscape and walk the grass. When Lincoln called it hallowed ground, he wasn't kidding.
It's funny. Within a couple hours, you can get to any number of battlefields around this area of the country. Ft. McHenry in Baltimore, Gettysburg, Brandywine, Valley Forge, Antietam, etc. An awful lot of people fought, and many died, for the freedoms we have. A lot of ghosts floating around.
Please forgive me folks
July 1, 2008 - 20:04 ET by bigpapaBut I would like to grab this POS by the neck and slap him repeatedly for all the good people and good works done by Americans throughout the world..
Too many fine men and women have died so this pond scum liberal can spout this crap off...
Someday, sometimes there has to be a reckoning...
I volunteer..
Please forgive me
July 1, 2008 - 21:23 ET by motherbeltPlease forgive me folks?????
Why? did you say something inappropriate? I must have missed it. LOL!
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
well MB
July 1, 2008 - 22:20 ET by bigpapaI didn't think so,,,
but don't want to upset the pansies ;)
Please forgive me
July 2, 2008 - 14:08 ET by merlin61You don't need forgiveness. Let these pond
scum who hate this country leave and go where?
If this country is so bad, why are they here and
free to spout their hatred. Please leave and
go spout in another country.
I'm going to Lake George!!
July 1, 2008 - 20:12 ET by jpatchWell said, Warner.
It's people like this who we should be telling to "shut the hell up".
Don't you just love it when America-hating pseudo-intellectual liberals try and speak for you in their "pieces" by telling you that you need to humble yourself?
It's gotten so bad, that we're inches away from being pushed right off of the cliff of civility and into the realm where William F. Buckley had to go with Gore Vidal.
On a lighter note, I'm heading up to Lake George this Thursday to spend the 4th with my girlfriend and her family up on their boats. And you better believe that I'm going to be shedding tears when I see those fireworks, because of how much I love my country and those that defend her. Is Mr. Finklestein heading up to the lake this weekend? Let me know Mark!! I wanna party with you!!!
Again, great response Warner. Cheers to you...and have a great Independence Day.
America...the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave...as long as people like us continue to live here.
God bless you all.
Can someone tell this boob
July 1, 2008 - 20:16 ET by GregECan someone tell this boob that the "Fourth" (the common term that has come to overshadow the real day....INDEPENDENCE DAY), is a celebration of the Independence of America from British rule. It's not about today, it's not about the Bush administration, it's not about yesterday, it's about the declaration, by an astounding group of men in 1776, of the.......
......Independence of the United States of America!!!!
Amen. They'll use politics
July 1, 2008 - 20:22 ET by Chris NormanAmen. They'll use politics to ruin everything good.
The Hellhole Amendment
July 1, 2008 - 20:42 ET by BritcomThese libs are Anti-America scum.
I propose an Amendment to the Constitution that says that anyone who Hates America can be deported to the worst totalitarian hellhole on the planet, and they can rot there.
---
Sen. John McCain (2003):
"...I am proud to say that I was born in your country.&
At least we know Mr.
July 1, 2008 - 20:18 ET by mattmAt least we know Mr. Hussein Oblama won't be questioning Satullo's patriotism.
It's the libs who need to repent
July 1, 2008 - 20:31 ET by nkviking75While we're at it, what about the millions of abortions every year? What about making a mockery of both marriage and the law by allowing judges to create "gay marriage"? What about a Supreme Court that doesn't think the rape of children merits the death penalty (which is usually delayed for years if the prisoner doesn't die of old age first). What about a Congress that wants to abridge the rights of free speech and a free press with the Fairness Doctrine and hate crimes laws? What about a government that seems determined to set us back a couple of centuries by blindly following questionable science on the environment?
If we're going to cite America's faults, then the libs have as much or more repenting to do than conservatives.
We might all remember II Chronicles 7:14 (New International Version):
... if
my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray
and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from
heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
Does the The Philadelphia
July 1, 2008 - 20:34 ET by ThisnThatDoes the The Philadelphia Inquirer really believe that that the signers of the Declaration of Independence would stand back and allow invaders of our country to live if they caught them (unlike us now -- we treat these a$$ho..s very nicely, thank you)? Or that they would use "gentle" techniques (like we do now) to extract important information from them? Or that they would extend the same rights that they just signed for our country to these foreign invaders?
The Philadelphia Inquirer is living in an alternative reality world, and is trying to project ultra-liberal surrender monkey philosophy to people they don't understand and who don't deserve a second chance. I will cheer the day The Philadelphia Inquirer goes belly up.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
Warner... Mr. Satullo can
July 1, 2008 - 20:35 ET by Clear thinkerWarner...
Mr. Satullo can hang his head in shame if he wants to, but for me (and I'm assuming you too) the 4th will be celbrated to it's fullest, because me and about 300 Million other people love this country.
God Bless the USA!
P.S. With any luck, fireworks will land on this guys house and.... well you get the idea.
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
Liberals are brain dead
July 1, 2008 - 20:38 ET by 10ksnookerNo point in talking to them.
you are right on
July 1, 2008 - 20:55 ET by welderforeI would think that the liberal people are sinning very much and just maybe they were talking about that but the people who have their head on right are not going let this or anything spoil the Fourth of July celebration and the lefy's can suck on a pacifier all day long if they want to I don't care, they are in another world we can't reach them maybe if the next rocket ship goes to mars we can put them on there and then they can have their way all the time. this is one right leaning person that will not kowtow to any thing this democrat congress says or does . as far as the Philly inquier I don't patronize papers or companies who are anti American . yes they are in fact brain dead.
I agree with what you said.
July 1, 2008 - 22:08 ET by RukusI agree with what you said. But that first sentence took the wind out of me, I mean, that was one loooong sentence! LOL! Good post though!
"Nuke 'em 'til they... oh hell, just shoot 'em!"
Gee... I wonder why
July 1, 2008 - 20:40 ET by MidAmericaGee... I wonder why newspapers are losing readers?
glad I stopped getting that paper
July 1, 2008 - 20:49 ET by lprgcfrankIn never ceases to amaze me what liberal guilt does to distort perception.
God Bless America and our forefathers who had the courage to stand up for our rights!
And you thought that the
July 1, 2008 - 20:54 ET by jdhawkAnd you thought that the "reverend" Wright was an isolated case of hate America first? It appears that they are everywhere that liberals lurk.
By the way, Satullo is the lead "reporter" in a project to shore up PI's decline subscription base that fell 5% for the dailies and over 6% for the Sunday edtion over this past year. With diatribes like this one, expect PI's circulation to fall 5% a month and PI to participate in little rendition of their own!
Wow Warner
July 1, 2008 - 21:04 ET by shawn228One of your post, which I totally agree with. So no sarcastic comment from me today. Have a great Holiday Warner.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
Mr. Satullo is very blessed
July 1, 2008 - 21:07 ET by rimskyMr. Satullo is very blessed to be living in this country and enjoying the freedom that allows him to express his horribly mis-guided opinions.
To all NB'rs.. God Bless, and have a great Independence Day!
Once again...liberals hate America
July 1, 2008 - 21:10 ET by jefflebowskiThey hate that we are rich and strong. They want to give our money and attention to the struggling masses...whoever they are.
Liberals want to change our way of life. They want us to accept that other cultures are better than ours. They want us to turn our lives and culture upside down. And they want us to go along with it.
On the eve of the 4th...I say NO to liberals. I am a proud, card carrying American...without apologies. I will not give a second of thought to your pathetic, worn-out ideology. Liberals should be ashamed of themselves! All of them!
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
I know that Satullo is
July 1, 2008 - 21:43 ET by allamericangirlI know that Satullo is quite sincere in his hatred of the United States
This man, Rev. Wright and all those who hate this country would get down on their knees and kiss American soil if they ever had to live in a 3rd world country. We Americans have been spoiled living in this great land and spoiled people don't appreciate what they have. Every day we take things for granted that others only dream of having.
I lived in Haiti for 7 years and I thought I loved America but not until that experience did I realize how much. May I chime in with the rest of you in saying GOD BLESS AMERICA.
"Liberalism is a mental disorder" -Michael Savage
Chrisie needs Some Space
July 1, 2008 - 21:55 ET by GoodiePlease, Please Chrissie pack your panties and move to another Country, send back your passport and never return. Nothing else is needed from you. Good Bye!
A clown like this doesn't
July 1, 2008 - 22:01 ET by CJK51A clown like this doesn't deserve my outrage or that of any other Conservative poster here. Think about the self-loathing he must have: hates his country, works for a dying medium and lives in a city hellbent on being the murder capital of the US. This pathetic excuse for journalism is little more than a cry for help. So, while we're enjoying cookouts, vacations, time with family and friends in the greatest country on the planet, this dolt will be busy composing yet another desperate plea for validation -- or a suicide note.
he he
July 1, 2008 - 22:19 ET by candanceI've been telling you guys for months that the "common sense" American is becoming an endangered species. This is the future of our country and it will only get worse from here on out.
Why they write these laments
July 1, 2008 - 22:25 ET by KC MulvilleThe motive here is simply to feel morally superior. So it doesn't matter whether you become superior by elevating yourself, or by pushing others down. The only goal is to seem "higher" than everyone else, so you can look down on them.
The basic message is that "I, I alone, am sensitive enough to detect our moral weakness, while you fools run around, thinking you're all OK. I am so glad I am not you."
Ignore this crap. He's just trying to suck you into his neurosis.
Philly Inq. unworthy of America?
July 1, 2008 - 22:27 ET by wdhorningUnlike the socialist/communist party supported by these leftists, in the USA, when people screw up they are held accountable. Socialists and communist governments control the press and under their justice system, the bad guys all get a break as long as they are well connected.
And besides, less than 1/10 of 1% of people act the way the article complains about. What about the other 99.9% of the people who are patriots, respect their heritage and do the right thing?
The bias by these leftists is outrageous.
Protesting too much
July 1, 2008 - 22:39 ET by needleThis guy sounds like every other pure bred Leftist I have ever heard, so I have no qualms about assuming he is a Leftist and accordingly an apologist and/or an appeaser of every tyrant and authoritarian dictator of the 20th century up to the present (except for maybe Hitler and one or two others). And then this guy justifies his screed because America does not match up to his standards as far as human rights are concerned?!? Well thank you very much for the compliment!
Now I think I can begin to make some sense of BDS: People who have accommodated or lauded Castro, Chavez, Ho Chi Min, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, etc. need desperately some bogeyman to hold up as an example of what they oppose, and against whom to contrast themselves through their indignant outrage. (These people have been liberally using Hitler for that purpose for quite some time. But now Hitler is beginning to wear a bit thin, especially as they have recently been trying to use his name to tar even the Jews, of all people.) This is yet another example – and a really extreme one at that – of protesting too much.
Impunitas semper ad deteriora invitat.
Murder City.
July 1, 2008 - 22:42 ET by Scrapiron"because of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, CIA secret prisons". The sad fact is that more people were killed/murdered in Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile than in all of the above places. And in the process of not killing anyone in those places over 50 million people have been freed. The Afghans and Iraqi's will be more loyal to America on the 4th of July than the Lame Stream Media enemies of America. What a shame they may be next to die in a terrorists attack on America. I will rejoice if any of the headquarters of the Lame Stream Media outlets are taken down. I may feel sorry for the family of the janitor, to the rest, good ridance.
Old, Retired and glad of it.
Challenges
July 1, 2008 - 22:53 ET by Remixer96Ok, I understand that yo're upset, but you've made a lot of baseless claims in your anger that I can't leave unchallenged.
First, The American left has not "destroyed religion in America." Last time I checked, ~82% or so of America still believed in God. If that's a state of destroyed religion, I think the institution is still in pretty good shape.
Second, You've put quotes around phrases to discredit them like illegally holding people "for years" and practicing "rendition." Regardless of whether or not those are left talking points, they are facts that have been reasonably vetted to be true. We have held some suspects since the Afghanistan invasion, shipped some of those suspects to foreign countries ot be questioned, and "interrogated" a man so hard that the doctor wrote homicide next to his cause of death. Not all things are a matter of opinion and definition.
Third, I don't think the article is blaming Bush. "We have done such things... we have done them without outrage or shame" does not sound like an indictment against anyone but "we" to me. We in this case beign the American people, NOT Bush.
Fourth, I don't think the quoted author meant to say 9/11 was imaginary in saying the WOT was a scam, only that it hasn't made us any safer than 9/11 levels, possibly instead making us more likely targets of terrorism. Claiming the author thinks 9/11 was an illusion is a disingenuous statement.
I agree that the Inquirer's article was perhaps not in the best taste, but don't fly off at the mouth with general indictments that you can't back up in response. That doesn't help any cause.
Riposte
July 2, 2008 - 00:44 ET by UnsaneIt really is too bad that like most Leftists you can't back much of this up.
Really? The war on terror has made us more likely targets of terrorism? Hell, there hasn't even been a terrorist attack on U.S. targets outside the United States after 9/11/01! With your logic, perhaps we should dissolve all PDs in the United States as they make us more likely victims of crime.
Yes, we have held people in detention for some length of time now, but you should be HAPPY. In earlier times, they would have been shot long ago. But THAT treatment makes Leftists so squeamish that we are trying this approach. But even this makes Leftists squeamish. Nothing short of many hugs for the bad guys and detaining them in the Waldorf Astoria will please a Leftist. Interestingly, I don't see the Leftists of this country all running out offering to adopt one of those cuddly terrorists.
And like it or not, the Left is contemptuous of religion in America. That observation courtesy of an atheist, mind you.
Iraq is not a bowl of cherries but things there are progressing nicely.
There is no other way to spin this other than the author has a passionate, intense hatred of his own country.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Backing it Up
July 2, 2008 - 07:17 ET by Remixer96I don't have much time, so I'll be brief.
True, we haven't had many acts classified as terrorism outside the US since 9/11, but I'd suspect that's because we have 4,113 deaths classified under "war" rather than "terrorism." Even if you could distill to only the suicide bombers and other terrorist approaches rather over traditional engagement, I still think the numbers would be significant enough to prove the point.
http://icasualties.o...
Regardless of whether or not it should make one happy, it's a true fact as to what we've done. By using quotes, Huston makes it seem as if the claim itself is somehow fictitious. That's all I was arguing against, and I'm glad to see we agree on the facts.
Religion: Oh? A generic branding that an entire gorup of people is simply "contemptuous" of religion? Got any numbers? Because I think they're still overwhelmingly in God's favor, regardless of "contempt."
http://www.christian...
I neverclaimed Iraq wasn't making progress, only that Huston resorted to baseless attacks in his anger against the Inquirer.
I don't understand how an author feeling disappointed in a people who have become apathetic and permissive translates into hating his country. Might you be able to explain that connection better?
My time is short too so have this
July 2, 2008 - 08:12 ET by UnsaneBetter that we fight the terrorists there and kill them over there than wait for, say, the Houston Police Department to take a stab at killing them after they have mown down or bombed a few hundred civilians. But hey, you are 100% okay with that, as long as we are showing the world we are THE most super-nice country in the world, by not being proactive and preventing terrorism BEFORE it happens, right???
Religion: Oh? A generic branding that an entire gorup of people is simply "contemptuous" of religion? Got any numbers? Because I think they're still overwhelmingly in God's favor, regardless of "contempt." Like it or not, the Left is contemptuous of religion. It's funny how Leftists think that every single thing is a numbers game of some sort. Try going through the past threads here on NB. The Left's behavior kind of makes it difficult for me to be an atheist Rightist.
I neverclaimed Iraq wasn't making progress, only that Huston resorted to baseless attacks in his anger against the Inquirer. I threw that quote in for fun. By the way, Mr. Huston's riposte was NOT baseless, unless you are either an Enquirer apologist or as America-hating as its columnist.
don't understand how an author feeling disappointed in a people who have become apathetic and permissive translates into hating his country. Might you be able to explain that connection better? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because he believes that the military is the worst possible institution in the land and is the locus of the world's evil. How many times does he accuse the military of conducting torture? (Hint: to Leftists such as yourself, if we don't COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY PAMPER these enemy combatants in the Waldorf Astoria, give them LOTS of hugs, and constantly show them that we are the most super-nice country in the world [and possibly give them each a soft cuddly teddy], we are torturing them.) Of course, neither you or Mr. Satullo mention the human rights violations perpetrated upon embassy employees, Leon Klinghoffer, Natasha Simpson (what she could have done to the Palestinians at age 11 is beyond me but that didn't stop them from spraying her with lead), and a few thousand office workers, firefighters, EMT personnel and flight attendants just to name a few.
Hence, both you and Mr. Satullo have a deep, intense, passionate hatred of the United States because (horrors!) we are trying to right some wrongs long perpetrated against the country.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Rebuttal
July 2, 2008 - 18:40 ET by Remixer96@Unsane:
First, the risks are just not worth it to keep "fighting
them over there." The chances of dying in a car accident are 225,000
times greater than dying in a terrorist attack. And once again,
creating a warzone in a country for seemingly illigetimate reasons
(which you have to concede is how it's viewed in the Middel East) WILL
create more terrorists. This all aside from the point that terrorism is
a tactic, and you can't defeat a tactic militarily. So if you can't
defeat terrorism the action, then you may want to try to change the
reason people want to use it... which does NOT involve using more
military force.
http://www.mattbarr.com/archives/2006/09/your_chance_of.html
For religion, simply repeating that Leftists are
contemptuous of religion over and over does not make it true. I'm sure
there are people who subscribe to Left ideas who are contemptuous, but
you can't brand an entire school of thought in such a way without any
numbers. You can't simply ambandon proof when it's not convenient to
your argument.
Baselessness: Again, simply calling me an America-hater
(which I'm not) does not in ANY way discredit my claim that some of Mr.
Huston's comments were baseless. Everything is written out by scrolling
up a little ways. Why not read it again and see if you can pick out
anythign specific you'd like to challenge?
Connections: If you can show me the paragraph, not the
extrapolation in your head, where Mr. Satullo says the US military is
the locus of the world's evil I will concede. If not, that claim has
absolutely no weight. I'll state again for emphasis, when we are "not
hugging" detainees to teh point where the doctor writes that teh cause
of death was homicide, we need to step back and realize what we're
doing.
Also, I don't mention those other human rights violations
is because they aren't relevant in the article. To say that we've
stepped over the line with our military practices isn't to deny that
the rest of the world doesn't commit human rights violations. To say so
is logic so broken that I can't even classify it.
Another thing, if you can find ANYTHING I've written that
shows a "deep, intense, passionate hatred for the United States of
America" then I would be glad to take issue with that as well. The
ability to be critical of things my country does is a right given to me
in the First Amendment, a document I hold in high respect, and I will
not give up that right in fear of someone accusing me of hating my
country.
Apples and Oranges Remixer
July 2, 2008 - 19:59 ET by acumenThe chances of dying in a car accident are 225,000
times greater than dying in a terrorist attack.
Apples and oranges. It is simply not reasonable to equate/compare an "accident" to a "terrorist attack". Just for starters, a car accident is inadvertent where a terrorist attack is a planned assault.
This all aside from the point that terrorism is
a tactic, and you can't defeat a tactic militarily.
I think the decimated al qaeda in Iraq would disagree with your assertion. Further, your claim that you can't defeat a "tactic" militarily is absurd. The military's job entails they deal almost exclusively in "tactics". The surge by the Coalition Forces was also a "tactic" and has proven to be quite successful militarily in neutering terrorists in Iraq.
So if you can't defeat terrorism the action, then you may want to try to change the reason people want to use it... which does NOT involve using more military force.
Again facts in Iraq give your above assertion the lie. Military force was a necessity to stabilize Iraq which has been in turmoil since before WWII. Now that Iraq has been stabalized with a working democratically elected government (more Iraqis voted in the last election than Americans in the last US election) and with 15 of the 18 benchmarks met by the new government the Iraqi citizens have the opportunity to finally live in peace. It is truly up to the Iraqis to shape their future. We have provided the means through our very capable military. Our military continues to win the hearts and minds of most Iraqis including former insurgents, many that even fought against Coalition forces in the past and that is quite a military accomplishment. The Iraqis for the most part are pleased with the efforts of our military and thousands of Iraqis everyday are coming forward to join the Iraqi police, the Iraq military and even joining the Iraqi version of our citizens watch called Concerned Local Citizens. To say that this incredible drop in terrorism and other positive transformations in Iraq was not due to military action is to deny reality.
BTW - I started to go chasing links for you but I considered that if I could find all of the above information/facts then so can others. If you choose to dispute any of the above points offered, I am prepared to provide credible resources to back up my claims. Surprisingly, a significant portion of my material was taken from a NY Times article (hint - date of article is 9/2/2007).
Now if you are prepared to offer a non-military scenario that would accomplish all of the above in Iraq I am willing to look at your non-military solution. But based on reality in Iraq it is prepostorous to claim that you cannot fight terrorism militarily.
So....what would have been your solution to defeating the terrorist Saddam and/or terrorism in Iraq without the use of our military or even the threat of using military force?
Further Defense
July 2, 2008 - 21:28 ET by Remixer96@acumen:
The reason this is relevant is because the logic "better to fight them over there than over here" rests on the idea that we are safer by displacing the terror attacks, which haven't been reduced, overseas. Demonstrating that the risks are preposterously small, it puts the cost of the war in proportion.
Tactics: But you make exactly my point. You can't defeat terrorism any more than you can defeat a "surge." What are we going to do, make war against every person employing terrorism in the world until terrorism doesn't exist anymore? What if we did and then a year later there was a terror attack? Is the war back on? Not only is that not feasible, but I'd argue the cost of attempting such an undertaking will drive the US into the ground a heck of a lot faster than any terrorist organization.
I don't disagree that the military is making progress in Iraq. I might argue on the strategic objectives, but we are succeeding on a tactical level. However, that is NOT what I'm talking about when I say our military presence in Iraq is creating more terrorists. Look at it this way, one of the largest, most powerful, and most Christian armies in the world has been transplanted to the backyard of several Arab nations in what appears (after the fact) to be an illegitimate fashion. Don't you think that makes the radicals in those nations feel uneasy? Don't you think it gives their recruits that were on the fence a bigger incentive to join? That's why I say more military action in the Middle East does not eliminate the driving causes of terrorism, but instead likely the reverse.
I agree solving the situation in Iraq will be tough, and I don't have any good answers, but I don't think even success there makes the war on the tactic of terrorism a success.
Last, calling Saddama terrorist is exactly the sort of slippery slope we get in to. Saddam was a dictator, not a terrorist. is every dictatoship now a terrorist too? Should we go after the Saudi Family for ruling with an iron fist? Why aren't we in Zimbabwe yet to fight the nation-sponsor of terror there? Such a vague definition leads to an endless war on terror.
And to finish with Saddam, I don't know what I would have done if I were commander in chief, but in hindsight, I think it was the wrong decision. The invasion was sold to us on a "clear and present danger" that Saddam posed to us in the form of WMD's. Those turned out to not exist. Thus, I think it was the wrong decision to invade Iraq. Apparently containment was working better than we thought, and we should've kept with that strategy until we saw otherwise.
Rm... Saddam wasn't a
July 2, 2008 - 21:46 ET by bigtimerRm...
Saddam wasn't a terrorist...
Are you serious...you simply can't be.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Defining Terrorist
July 3, 2008 - 01:34 ET by Remixer96I'll ask again, how do you define terrorist?
Saddam wasn't willing to engage in any suicide bombimg plans. He wasn't ideologically driven to destroy other segments of the globe. He wanted power, and he was brtual and terrible and used force to get it.
Does that make him a terrorist under the war on terror? I think this point is absolutely vital or otherwise this WOT will NEVER END. We can't simply label anyone we consider to be evil a terrorist. Is Fidel Castro a terrorist? Again, a brutal dictator to be sure.... but terrorist?
Everyone who is indiscriminate in their choice of means for power usurption should NOT be labeled a terrorist.
Being a criminal is NOT the same as being a terrorist.
Hummm
July 3, 2008 - 01:52 ET by HumblepieDid he or did he not provide financial support to suicide bombers in Palistian? Did he not, with the help of his intelligence organization plan an attempt on Pres Bush life when he visited Kuwait?
Castro is much easier. Look at his life before the overthrow of the Cuban government.
During this time with political correctness at its zenith, I reserve the right to let you know you're an idiot.
Still no definition
July 3, 2008 - 07:00 ET by Remixer96I think it's possible to argue those two things were more about increasing Saddam's concrete power and influence in the Middle East rather than inspiring terror. Look, I get already that there are people who do bad things in this world. That doesn't mean we should label them all "terrorists." If we're not careful in this definition, it will be the key to the WOT dragging out forever and ever as we continue to find new terrorists, as is exemplified by this retro-fitting of old dictators as terrorist, which can be done at the expense of precision of definition.
So what criteria are you guys using to judge some acts as more terroristic than others? What makes one person a terrorist and another simply a dictator? I don't think having attacked the US is a good criterion given that many terrorists are busy with other more local powers at present.
Remixer96 & Unsane
July 2, 2008 - 15:11 ET by MrShy"I don't have much time, so I'll be brief."
Being on the wrong side of the aisle around here, if you post a 6-paragraph long defense of Sir Hate America to kick things off, when we methodically deconstruct and disprove each of your talking points, countering with the opener "I don't have much time..." is, well, weak.
So, come on now, you have the time, or if you sincerely didn't when you posted back, wait until some ample and necessary time has been FOUND. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just using that line due to a lack of concrete and plausible arguments (well, I sort of am.... :p)
And Unsane, shame on you for not calling him/her out on this! (jk) Btw, I, too, am a Christian-appreciating (and religion-liking in general, except for one, which I have every right to be suspicious of) athiest.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Apologies
July 2, 2008 - 18:41 ET by Remixer96@MrShy:
I only meant to indicate it would be a quick response I'd
come back to later. I enjoy a good debate. Otherwise I wouldn't come
here. So if it seemed like I was trying to skirt rebuttal, I apologize.
That was not my intent.
However, I don't believe Unsane properly rebutted any of my points, though you're free to disagree.
Maybe Mr. Satullo should leave
July 2, 2008 - 00:35 ET by UnsaneI recommend Mr. Satullo head north of the border and celebrate Canada Day after renouncing his citizenship at the nearest U.S. consulate.
I know he'd be ENRAGED for telling him I fully intend on unfurling the Stars and Stripes right at 0630 CST on 16 July. And on 6 August. And on 9 August.
(Hey, every day is a great day to fly Old Glory, but especially on those days.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Where did Satullo's group think come from....
July 2, 2008 - 01:56 ET by HillbillyKingI found this piece by Chris Satullo:
http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/10/08/cs_respond.html
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
Wondering...
July 2, 2008 - 08:25 ET by Sua Sponte 75Not that this shmuckatelly doesn't believe the tripe he spews, wondering what the numbers are on sales for his rag as everyone knows, bad sells, good no sells....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
"Let us atone, in quiet and
July 2, 2008 - 13:02 ET by misterbee241"Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly
studying the example of our Founders. May we earn a new birth of
courage before our nation's birthday next rolls around."
Mao could not have said it better. Got your Little Red Book, Chris?
From Chairman Mao:
"We must not become complacent over any success. We should check our
complacency and constantly criticize our shortcomings, just as we
should wash our faces or sweep the floor every day to remove the dirt
and keep them clean."
You do what you want Chris. I'm going to have a couple of hot dogs, watch the fireworks and thank God, that for yet a little while , I'm still a free-born American.
"There is none so blind as they that won’t see."
Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
Ah, misterbee...
July 2, 2008 - 13:08 ET by Clear thinkerYou have hit upon where the left get's their messages. They are being manipulated beautifully by those behind the curtain. For those of you that don't follow my line of thinking, see my link below.
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
Mao could not have said it better
July 2, 2008 - 13:36 ET by allamericangirlGreat example misterbee
Same demons just using different bodies.
"Liberalism is a mental disorder" -Michael Savage
Please use the CORRECT name for this Holiday.
July 2, 2008 - 13:26 ET by jeffinsacThis is NOT the 4th or July 4th holiday, but Independance Day Holiday that happens to be on the 4th of July. Please don't be like many of the Liberal media who also does not call this Holiday by it's correct name when talking and reporting about it.
What an a-hole
July 2, 2008 - 14:36 ET by greenfairieIt's guys like him who make me cheer every time I hear about the downward spiral of the newspaper industry. Keep it up, Commie, one day the pink slip is comin' for ya.
Y'know something
July 2, 2008 - 19:18 ET by BobAnthonyWoudn't be shocked if this was something my ex-radio boss Tandaleya Wilder (ex-NPR reporter) would've had a hand in. She is from Philly, loves the Inquirer or Inqi as they say.
Well since this was written by someone with an Italian last name like Signore Satullo, I wonder if this guy likes kissing the feet of Mussolini?! For him to say a "new birth of courage" would mean only one thing--SOCIALISM.
For my Philly news, it's the Bulletin.
Features conservative commentators like Dom Giordano and Cal Thomas.