This is the sort of report that immediately gets my BS detector up. A recent Palm Beach [Fla.] Post story is trying to claim that Americans are running to Europe to claim dual citizenship because the U.S. is so horrible for everyone here. Yet, even as the story is making the claim that more Americans are fleeing this country for Europe, it offers no statistics to prove it. And the Post even admits that there are none to be got. So, in essence, all we end up with is a claim and nothing but circumstantial and anecdotal evidence with no real facts to prove anything. But this piece does, however, succeed in bashing the USA at every turn.
The first sentence sets the tone of lament that the rest of the piece carries by giving the reader a sense of something lost, a foreboding that foreshadows the end of the prominence of the United States of America.
For millions of Europeans who braved the Atlantic Ocean for a glimpse of the Statue of Liberty and dreams of a lavish life, there was little thought of ever emigrating back.
You can just feel the other shoe about to drop as far as the writer of this claptrap is concerned.
Yet for a new generation of Americans of European descent, the Old Country is becoming a new country full of promise and opportunity... The creation of the European Union and its thriving economy is very appealing for Americans in a global economy.
And there you have it. Americans are streaming to Europe for a better life... at least according to the Palm Beach Post.
So, the Post is trying to sell us this claim that a "growing number of Americans" are looking for European passports so that they can find better "opportunity" in the EU. Yet, as each sentence and paragraph rolls on, the hope that the Post would back up its claim with stats seems to recede ever farther away.
We get meaningless interviews with several Americans who have begun the process to get European citizenship, we get the claims that more Americans are doing it, we get the expression that the grass is greener in the booming EU, yet, no facts and figures.
There is a reason we get no real facts and only claims and anecdotal evidence of this supposed trend. In one sentence the Post admits its got bubkis to prove the wild claim that Americans are in "growing numbers" streaming to Europe to escape our bad American life.
Since the United States doesn't keep statistics on dual citizens, it's impossible to know exactly how many people have applied for citizenship in Europe.
I see. So they have no statistics? None at all? Not only does the Post not have any statistics from America to prove this thesis, they don't even present any from Europe to show that more Americans are asking European countries for dual citizenship.
It appears that it is all just a wild conjecture on the part of the Palm Beach Post.
But there is one thing that this fantasy "report" does admirably. It presents American after American who has given up on this country because it is so horrible to live here. One after another, the folks they interview to present their anecdotal evidence of this so-called trend are heard to bash the U.S.
Having no proof to prove this claim does not really bother the Post when the goal is not to substantiate the premise in the first place. The goal was to bash the U.S. and that the story does quite well, I must say.
Mission accomplished, Palm Beach Post.
Comments Policy
Good riddance. I only wish
June 9, 2008 - 15:05 ET by ckc1227Good riddance. I only wish millions more were going with them.
I'm betting if this is even
June 9, 2008 - 15:15 ET by Chris NormanI'm betting if this is even partially true, it's because a lot of affluent Americans want to buy a second house (or retire) in Paris, Rome, or wherever and enjoy a supposedly charming and chic lifestyle that they are able to afford because of economic opportunities in the US. You see these people on House Hunters International on HGTV...
I did read somewhere not
June 9, 2008 - 15:35 ET by motherbeltI did read somewhere not too long ago that some American retirees are moving to assisted living facilities in Mexico, because the cost is so much less than here. And as jefflebowski says below, there are great deals to be had in Costa Rica (and probably elsewhere), where one can enjoy a higher standard of living.
No one begrudges anyone the chance to get the utmost for the their money. I think what's most annoying about this is that it's made to seem that people "fleeing" this country like they did East Berlin when the wall came down.
Yeah, and since there are no
June 9, 2008 - 16:00 ET by Chris NormanYeah, and since there are no statistics, the reader is unable to know if this sis something that has always gone on - I mean in a country of 300 million plus, I would think it's a given that there are emigrants. By the way, I wonder how many of these emigrants are illegal? :)
I've noticed that many of
June 9, 2008 - 15:08 ET by forestI've noticed that many of the rich and famous of Europe often live in the US for their careers and presumably to avoid having 50+ percent of their income confiscated.
But it's only an anecdotal observation - I wouldn't publish an article on the trend without first doing a little, you know, research.
I, for one, welcome our sharia robot overlords
June 9, 2008 - 15:10 ET by SickofLibsThis is truly hilarous!
Since apparently Palm Beach can't even figure out how, in the 21st century, to hold a valid election without major problems, I have to agree - living under a monarchy or quasi-socialist government makes sense.
ps: we're not going to have to donate a big copper statue to some foreign harbor, are we?
I'm going to disagree here
June 9, 2008 - 15:17 ET by jefflebowskiA college buddy and I were in Costa Rica last year and looked at a 4 bedroom house with a big pool, satellite TV, maids house in the back, all the amenities one would expect in the US and the price of the home was $90,000. Property taxes were $20 per year.
More and more Americans are retiring to Central America and I don't believe that this trend will wane. There are so many Americans in San Jose now that you don't have to speak Spanish to get around.
So you can live very well at a greatly reduced cost in a safe country with stable government. Many are choosing that option and I can't say that I'm not doing the same when I hit retirement age.
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
I have heard that too,
June 9, 2008 - 15:55 ET by dscottI have heard that too, there is a large ex-patriot community there. Costa Rica is the new Florida. I would be more likely to believe retired Americans are moving out of the country there than to Europe just because of the cost of living, taxation issues and very few hurricanes. In low altitude areas the draw back is the bugs, temperature and humidity, worse than Florida but I guess that's what air conditioning is for, on the other hand you could live higher up on the mountains and not need AC year round.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
Sorry to nit pick...
June 9, 2008 - 16:00 ET by mvfreemanThe word you are thinking of is expatriate.
Have a lot of people from Texas moving to Mexico because nursing homes are cheaper.
yeah, that's what I'm
June 9, 2008 - 16:05 ET by dscottyeah, that's what I'm meant... really... or did I.... <sarcasm>
ex-patriots - those who leave for political reasons.
expatriates - those who leave for economic or other non-political reasons.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
Hmmm
June 9, 2008 - 16:20 ET by mvfreemanhttp://www.bartleby.com/68/54/2354.html
Not to be confused with
June 10, 2008 - 14:10 ET by Hero SquadNot to be confused with ex-Patriots - i.e., Adam Vinatieri
*****
"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
Costa Rica yes! Mexico, for
June 9, 2008 - 16:01 ET by SickofLibsCosta Rica yes! Mexico, for sure.
But not Europe, which is the sole focus of the 'article'.
I'm not sure
June 9, 2008 - 16:12 ET by mvfreemanMy son went to several places in europe on his last deployment and he said that things were much more laid back than they are here. He told me that people's attitudes towards life was a lot different and it was a nice change of pace.
I believe this was in Spain...
http://i124.photobuc...
it's true America sucks
June 9, 2008 - 17:01 ET by TruthMongerit's true America sucks more and more...
it's not so much these other places are getting better...
it's more about how libs are really stinking up the place here...
Repubs really should take the US Mil, move into equador - turn it into a booming nation, and expand from there - set up the Conservative States of South America - banning liberalism as a hate crime against nature...
I appreciate the sarcasm
June 9, 2008 - 17:12 ET by dscottI appreciate the sarcasm TM, tempting idea, the part about banning liberalism as a hate crime that is.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
This might explain it
June 10, 2008 - 07:03 ET by Unsane...and strangely enough, Europe is on the road to Nowhere, while the United States runs circles around them.
Their attitudes mostly reflect the fact that Europe has given up.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
...it is true that America
June 9, 2008 - 15:17 ET by TruthMonger...it is true that America is going down the tubes - all of the relentless liberalism is having an effect...
Conservatives may have to secede eventually - it's almost time to chuck it in and start over
I don't understand...
June 9, 2008 - 15:13 ET by Prester John...why our liberal friends can't hang on for another 8 months until the Messiah is inaugurated. I mean, everyone just KNOWS it's a Democrat year, right?
Or maybe they're just hedging their bets in case those eviiiillll Republicans "steal" yet another presidential election from the masses.
Since the Palm Beach Hack, I mean Post is down here in SOFLA,
June 9, 2008 - 15:14 ET by voodoodaddythe writer of this article got it all wrong. It is not that everyone is seeking dual citizenship and want to move out ot the USA it is that they all just want to get the hell out of Florida before our RINO Governor Crist taxes us to death with his Global Warming and Insurance fiasco legislation.
It presents American after
June 9, 2008 - 15:18 ET by JasonCIt presents American after American who has given up on this country because it is so horrible to live here.
Sorry, but you're completely making that up. The story offers anecdotal explanations of why some people are choosing dual citizenship, most of which are for basic, economic/entrepeneurial reasons. The Euro is rising and the dollar is weakening; it's a fact. And some people are either claiming they have decent opportunities abroad or simply that they relish the chance to be a dual citizen for the cosmopolitanism of it. Both of these things are natural consequences of globalization and technologized economies. You don't seem interested in pointing out that there are commentators quoted in this article who regard this as a "self-centered" approach, and one who deems it an untenable long-term solution because of the vagaries of socialist governments. About the only critical thing uttered with regard to the U.S. is that there is generally less vacation time here. Does that really constitutes U.S.-bashing, as you suggest?
I will certainly agree that the lack of figures on dual-citizenships makes the statistical significance of this story a little dicey, but I think you're way out of line characterizing its tone and/or approach as hostile to the U.S.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Dual citizenship??? No thanks
June 9, 2008 - 15:46 ET by UnsaneSorry, but you're completely making that up. The story offers anecdotal explanations of why some people are choosing dual citizenship, most of which are for basic, economic/entrepeneurial reasons. And those who choose dual citizenship for that reason may as well go full board. I'm not entertaining even the though of dual citizenship, even though the last two years haven't exactly been my finest. Why should I when I live in the greatest nation on earth with the largest and most advanced economy anywhere at anytime?
The Euro is rising and the dollar is weakening; it's a fact. Since 1986 or so, the Pound has been stronger than the dollar. What's your point? And like anything else, that situation carries with it advantages and disadvantages.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
I'm not trying to debate
June 9, 2008 - 15:58 ET by JasonCI'm not trying to debate the wisdom or lack thereof in dual citizenship. I'm sure that the opportunity for financial gain depends on a number of factors. I'm arguing that WTH has mischaracterized the article in question, which in no way makes it sound like an ideal, can't-miss opportunity, and does not slander the U.S. but simply mentions some unfortunate economic realities which may be contributing to it. I personally wouldn't change my citizenship based on vacation time, but if somebody else values that above all else, that's certainly their business. My point is that if anybody is reading a "Berlin Wall" subtext (to quote Motherbelt) into this story, I'm not seeing it, and I don't see anybody else providing evidence or a compelling argument about it. All I see is indignation along the lines of "How dare you try to get dual-citizenship when you already live in the best country in the world?" If you really do find that offensive, fine, but I don't think the article was doing anything to provoke that reaction.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Jason you are the one who's misleading and indignant
June 9, 2008 - 16:41 ET by Dee BunkWTH is spot on as usual and your claims of his being misleading are once again false. The whole theme of the article is framed on America bad : Europe good.
It starts out
"For millions of Europeans who braved the Atlantic
Ocean for a glimpse of the Statue of Liberty and dreams of a lavish
life, there was little thought of ever emigrating back.
Yet for a new generation of Americans of European descent, the Old
Country is becoming a new country full of promise and opportunity."
Of Course that is bashing America. We used to brave the waters to get out, now be scurry back. Then the bashing personal accounts that WTH speaks of
"I'm doing it as an exit strategy of sorts," Alfano
said. "I like knowing that I have another place to go if things get
even worse here, or if I just get tired of running on the American
mouse wheel."
"And as the value of the euro - the currency shared
by 15 EU countries - rises and America's economy slumps, it's an
attractive alternative for Amber Alfano, a recent University of Florida
graduate who is becoming an Italian citizen like her father."
"My dad was actually the one who put a bug in my ear
about the whole citizenship thing. He said that Europeans are more
interested in the quality of life than the quantity, and that it was a
good place to have and raise children because of the way their social
systems work. I don't care much about the child-rearing part, but I
would gladly trade in some of my material possessions for a little
flat, a scooter and more vacation."
It's not until the bottom third of the article (that many people never get to) where they bring up the dangers of socialism in those countries.
Duh - they had to leave the door open for Obama to save the day. Amercia's bad right now - but don't worry - it will be much better once those evil Republicans get out of office and Obamamessiah takes over! No mention that America could become worse off if it takes on some of those very socialistic programs (advocated by democrats) that they warn against.
LOL
June 9, 2008 - 16:52 ET by mvfreemanNice reading between the lines.
I guess perception IS everything.
Some people are awfully thin-skinned.
the Old Country is becoming
June 9, 2008 - 17:22 ET by motherbeltthe Old Country is becoming a new country full of promise and opportunity."
Please explain how that doesn't sound like it's better there than here. If you have promise and opportunity here, why would you leave?
And this?
I'm doing it as an exit strategy of sorts," Alfano
said. "I like knowing that I have another place to go if things get
even worse here, or if I just get tired of running on the American
mouse wheel."
Another neutral statement, I guess?
So let's hear your interpretation of those!
My problem mother and dee
June 9, 2008 - 17:37 ET by DEVILDOCMOMis which country I should move to? I am mostly Scots, English, and Irish BUT there is that pesky Frenchman way back and the occasional Germans. THEN I have my native american ancestor. PLEASE, what am I to do? My son is in worse shape, he has Italians and Portuguese thrown in. Can the Palm Beach writer help me?
MB and DVD
June 9, 2008 - 17:52 ET by Dee BunkIt's so funny how people who don't think America is all that great can't see any problem with this.
Good grief
June 9, 2008 - 17:49 ET by mvfreemanAlluding that another place may be more appealing is not bashing. And seeing as how the price of damn near everything is up it could get worse here. Making an observation about some negative aspects of America is not bashing. Like I said some people are awfully thin-skinned.
As my reply to you below explains Mvfree
June 9, 2008 - 17:54 ET by Dee Bunkwe know you are thin-skinned like Jason. We don't expect people who don't think America is that great to notice.
/sigh
June 10, 2008 - 00:25 ET by ChesterBogusJeez-ow, nothing anywhere is perfect. When did America change? Wasn't there an old saying that, "Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the best we've got"?
When did America go from such honesty and humilty to the hubris of "AMERICA IS PERFECT! DID YOU SAY AMERICA ISN'T PERFECT?! WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!?!"
Again: nothing is perfect. Get over it! America has flaws. I know I sound silly, but I'm very serious. America has ALWAYS had a tradition of good-natured America bashing. The country is founded on our right to bash America. I mean, would you have Mark Twain banned because he made a joke out of American society? Did Thoreau write a terrorist handbook because he abandoned American society at Walden Pond? Did Langston Hughes's writing of "A Dream Deferred" constitute an anti-American manifesto?
No.
When did things change? When did Americans become paranoid witch-hunters?
Look, I'm getting o/t, but follow me here: I left America because my personality did not fit in with the people around me. I was openly treated like a freak. I'm not gay, goth, transgender, cross-dresser, dork, nerd, black, white or hispanic. I was just different. It was no element of the government that drove me out, but the people around me. It was the personal "freedom" to be myself that I didn't have.
Look, I know I make an ass of myself all the time, but take my word on this: terrorists are not the true enemies of freedom. Terrorists are the enemies of governments. You and I are, we are the enemies of freedom every time we make someone feel like a freak; every time we are mean to someone for being honest, we are attacking freedom. When we attack someone for disagreeing with us, we attack one's freedom to be who he is. This is a freedom our government cannot provide. Armies cannot protect this freedom. It is in the trust of individuals.
All I'm saying is this: politics, economy, government - these are not the only reasons to leave a country. While the military is out defending our political freedom, people back home continue to attack people's personal freedom - how is that honoring the troops?
So to you...
June 10, 2008 - 01:11 ET by Warner Todd HustonSo to you America is only what each individual makes of it with no connection to any other citizen?
You do realize then that you just said America has no culture, should have no culture and can have no culture. Has no laws, should have no laws, and can have no laws. You just said that it should be unAmerican to have any homogenous character, just said that any American society is unwelcome as a concept.
After all, it's all relative, right? We should all be "ourselves." Sounds to me like a bunch of unrealistic, childish, whining.
You are an anarchist, not a "freak." You want everything to be just your way while refusing to lay claim to that fact that it is you denying everyone else's freedom to chose a social order.
But, if you really look at American history, YOUR idea is foreign to it. Yes we have freedom and liberty, but we also have our own society. And the further we drift from that original society the farther down the tubes we go. Sure some things of the past needed to be fixed, changed. But to throw it all out is the wrong choice.
No one on the planet has the ability to willfullness and license and that is what YOU are advocating. Whether we like it or not, there is some level of conformity that must be accepted in ANY society or there can BE no society. I wish you well in whatever foreign place you've moved to. But I cannot say we'll miss you.
Chester sure is bogus - He thinks terrorists only enemy is Govt
June 10, 2008 - 09:14 ET by Dee Bunkabsolute crazy nonsense. Terrorists terrorize people not governments. They want to take over governments and institute their theocracy. We saw their model with the Taliban.
Chester leaves the U.S. because people made him uncomfortable? Wow. More complete craziness. This is a huge country with so many different unique neighborhoods and he couldn't fit in anywhere? Crazy. Completely Crazy. Do you think the women of Afghanistan were comfortable with the Taliban?
Liberals are the least inclusive people around and shun you if you don't agree with their politics or idolize their Rock Stars. I admit that liberals in other countries are not nearly as bad as our liberals. He must have been pushed out by the liberals.
Of course the U.S. isn't perfect but it's better than any other country out there.
MV, I am not
June 9, 2008 - 18:35 ET by DEVILDOCMOMimplying I am alone in the following comment, but I have lived and visited MANY countries and THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE HOME, that being the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Lol mvfree- I agree Jason is very thin-skinned
June 9, 2008 - 17:50 ET by Dee Bunkhe's always offended by WTH perspective because he reads things between the lines.
Perception IS everything and liberals perception is that this country isn't that great.
LOL
June 9, 2008 - 17:53 ET by Warner Todd HustonI DO have my own little stalker squad, don't I?
Your posts do tend to catch
June 9, 2008 - 17:56 ET by JasonCYour posts do tend to catch my eye more than most, but I assure you I decide where to post based on topic and already-existing posts, not author. Though I commented today on your grammar/Bushism story from Friday and expressed agreement with many (though not all) of your critiques, if that helps.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
WTH and Jason
June 9, 2008 - 18:01 ET by Dee BunkIt's not surprising that liberals gravitate here more because WTH is one of the more religious posters and liberals strongest opinions are against religious perspectives.
WTH also does a lot of patriotic type posts and that is their second biggest pet peeve.
Finally - WTH is colorful and they don't like that either. Not me. I love it!
Another thing...
June 9, 2008 - 18:10 ET by Warner Todd HustonAnother thing lefty types don't like is I am quite sure of myself. They HATE it when someone thinks they are right. They love it when people waste half of what they write with pointless disclaimers like "well, I could be wrong," or "Of course, I am no expert," or "now I am not sure, but..."
Liberals HATE it when people think they are right... well, I should say they hate it when OTHER people act as if they are right about something... ANYTHING.
See, to a liberal, EVERYONE else is wrong or should be automatically doubted (but themselves, of course). There is no authority, no "correct," no right or wrong. It's all relative.
The fact that I see real wrongs and real rights drives them CRAZY!
They also HATE it when I capitalize stuff. Dribes 'em right up a tree.
So, I guess I am "colorful" after all.
Yeah WTH
June 9, 2008 - 18:48 ET by Dee Bunkthat's part of it too. They are willing to get along as long as conservatives do all or most of the conceding.
As I said, I love your articles and think they are often funny and witty and very well written. That's the kind of color that will always be appreciated by those of us who matter most here (conservatives).
Thanks
June 9, 2008 - 18:57 ET by Warner Todd HustonI always appreciate the support, for sure.
I'm glad the sly humor comes through OK. I try to be just witty and sardonic enough to keep it fun. Sometimes it runs away with me, though.
It sure helps me on the radio, though!
Same here Dee...you hit the
June 9, 2008 - 18:12 ET by bigtimerSame here Dee...you hit the nail on the head.
I'm just trying to catch up with all the blog posts and been reading all of this...same old characters going after WTH...they can't help themselves...
For me it is getting to be a comedy show in some ways...if you know what I mean.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Wilson
Hi BT
June 9, 2008 - 18:27 ET by Dee BunkComedy show is a good description. That's how I see it now too. It's so predictable. I'm way past the anger thing now. It's all just amusing. You can only be angry when you feel betrayed. I don't anymore. They are just all liberals being liberals - they can't help themselves and it's really just funny. They'll always flock together no matter what.
JasonC
June 9, 2008 - 18:04 ET by Warner Todd HustonI ain't complaining, mind you. I like to see the stuff get swirled! I like it when I am challenged. It gets everyone thinking.
I used to be a major message boarder until I just ran out of time to keep up with such things. I remember some major controversies with some very spirited back and forth. It was a ton of fun.
Also, I write a LOT of stuff. I am sure not to be right 100% of the time! I am sure that once in a thousand pieces I might be a little wrong about sumpthin'!
I know you don't mind it WTH
June 9, 2008 - 18:21 ET by Dee Bunkand are perfectly capable of sticking up for yourself, but isn't it nice to have a little help once in a while? As I've said you are always respectful and prove yourself by leaving their obnoxious posts up.
I remember when Leon used to come here and totally trash you and none of our liberal PC police (who are always complaining about how different people argue) ever had a problem with him. He was the biggest most consistent flame thrower.
I know Jason and most of the rest are not as obnoxious as Leon, but they think it's okay to call you "misleading" for example, but don't like it when we do it back to them.
Bulls-Eye Dee... Just my
June 9, 2008 - 18:59 ET by bigtimerBulls-Eye Dee...
Just my two cents...
Plus I'm chuckling here gal...
Mission accomplished and job well done friend.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Wilson
Hey Dee, I just came here
June 9, 2008 - 19:06 ET by JasonCHey Dee, I just came here to point out what I perceived as an inconsistency between Warner's assertion and the article itself. I don't know why you have to reframe the debate as so personal, like I seek Warner out to bully him. He's clearly capable of defending his stories with himself, and with good humor. If you want to accuse me of being the misleading and disingenuous one, feel free. Please try to explain without the "You just hate America as much as those expatriate wannabes" histrionics, and I'll be more than willing to listen. I've posted two involved and detailed posts about my position on this story, and am not all that interested in this politics of personality mess.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Hey Jason
June 10, 2008 - 10:25 ET by Dee BunkI just came here to point out what I perceived as an inconsistency between your assertion and the article itself. It's not personal. I posted facts and details about why you were wrong. You only gave rhetoric and left out parts of WTH post that didn't fit your theme.
Leave it to a liberal to tell me what I already know and said. I know WTH is capable of defending himself. Aren't you?
Don't tell me my points are histrionics. Mr. Defender and lover of Leon the most histrionic poster of all. I'm not the one caring about politics of personality. You are. Only conservative personalities seem to bother you and now, only liberal ones bother me. So what? It doesn't change the facts.
How convenient of you to want to dismiss my point about how you see this country as bad and that's why you can't see what WTH is talking about. That's the whole crux if it. You see no problems with people wanting to leave it for a "better place" and you are willing to believe it's happening in very large numbers even though there is nothing to support that.
I don't care if it is actually happening in large numbers. We have more than enough people here and if people don't like it here, I wish they would leave instead of trying to turn us into a socialist country like the ones they supposedly flee to. Every liberal should try living in one of these countries and if they like it stay and if they don't then come back.
I know people who've lived in many different countries. They usually left because of their Job and couldn't wait to get back. They all liked our health care system much better. Most I've known well have lived in Australia, Canada and England and Ireland (the English speaking ones).
I've also had acquaintances and clients from Russia, Poland, Finland, The Philippines, Argentina, Chili, Mexico, Africa, India and lots of other places. Some have been here on visas, some moved here permanently. They all miss their homeland for it's culture and people, but have liked the jobs and the health care that they get here much better.
I think you're missing the
June 10, 2008 - 10:52 ET by JasonCI think you're missing the point of my posts. The second half of this post suggests that I'm championing the idea of leaving the U.S. for whatever reasons. Please quote me on this. Where did I say "hell yeah, move to France, the U.S. is bad." Not only did I not say that, Dee, but it has consistently not been the point of my posts. Note that I even kind of mocked the girl with the romanticized expectations about moving to Italy when she graduates. Note that I admitted that the guy who makes reference to the "American mouse wheel" is a tad on the insulting side, especially since he doesn't explain what he means by that. I doubt he will find the French or Spanish mouse wheel any more gratifying.
Even some of the most staunchly conservative posters on this site have been saying something that I wholeheartedly agree with; if you honestly feel you can do better investing or living in another country, why not do it? It's a hell of a lot better than the opposite tack of staying here, bitching about what you don't like, and milking federal programs if you fail. Your anecdotes and generalizations fail because I am not arguing about whether or not it is in fact viable to leave the U.S. for economic and/or lifestyle reasons. As I have made clear all throughout this board. I am arguing that 1) Deciding to get dual-citizenship so as to pursue opportunities abroad is not decisively anti-American, especially since "dual" citizenship by definition means that one retains American citizenship and therefore is not a expat and 2) Even though some of the interviewed subjects express ideas that could be construed as hostile toward America, the article itself does not, and even presents counter-arguments along the lines of what you've said here.
You continue to resort to this inane line of argument that all of my arguments come from a perspective of thinking America sucks. It's incorrect, for one, and a cheap and shallow way to argue. I live in the U.S., and I personally have no plans to leave. Just because I take issue with some aspects of American culture that you happen to think are just fabulous, does not mean I hate this country; just as your dislike of certain elements of liberal American culture that I admire, does not make me brand you as un-American.
Say what you want about my arguments, I have never used "You just don't like this country" as a jumping-off point.
As for Leon, he and I had similar political perspectives and got along. He had a rambunctious style and wasn't afraid to get sarcastic and caustic, but he certainly wasn't a troll. In fact, his style was about on the level with probably a good 1/2 of regular posters here; he just happened to use it to argue from the other side. He certainly was not the most histrionic poster here; in fact, he was pretty thick-skinned.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
See Jason - you had no problems with Leon's style but do WTH's
June 10, 2008 - 11:44 ET by Dee Bunkand mine currently. You are all about criticizing someone's style when you can't win the argument. You just admitted again, and your comments about Leon show how your indignation about style is very selective.
I'm glad that I got you to admit you respect WTH the other day and you do seem to be showing more respect, but in the past you poo pooed his style and tried to compare it to the daily Kos and the other hate sites.
I'm just not tolerating any complaints about style (from liberals) whether it's mine or someone else's. When I see you complaining about other liberals then I might take some notice. Until then your criticisms about it are empty an meaningless and I'll criticize you right back. You are no better than anyone else here.
I'm sorry that you think it's a shallow argument to say that you don't like America the way it is. It's the truth. You liberals want some big overhaul of it and think we need more government programs to make it great. We don't. We think it's the best country and keeps slipping to be more like inferior countries and want to stop the slide. You want to emulate other countries not be the leader like we always have been. Sorry that it offends you that I don't agree and see our country as better the way it is.
When and if we get to national health care and a peacekeeping only military that won't defend our interests, and a society that won't allow religious symbols in public (including crosses or head scarfs on students), and tries to make peaceful evangelizing a hate crime and other changes, then I'll be saying that I don't like this country and you can criticize me for it. It would be a legitimate criticism that I wouldn't deny. You just deny that you want to change it even though your favorite political candidate has said that's what he's going to do.
Change change change to be more like the wonderful Europe. He'll pick more Supreme Court Justices like Bryer, Souter and Ginsberg who think their precedent should be followed in our courts. We'll be living with cameras on every street corner like England and Chicago, and he'll put more faith in Government than the people themselves, he'll talk to and compromise with dictators and despots but not with Republicans. Change change change. You like it, we don't.
Trying something different can be a good change, but emulating failure is not.
Where have I criticized
June 10, 2008 - 14:04 ET by JasonCWhere have I criticized style? I criticize arguments, and in your case, it's that you continue to produce a line of argument that simply doesn't work. Take this article, for example. I posted to argue against Warner's claim that the paper is fabricating and/or glorifying this dual-citizenship story. Where, even once, do my posts address style?
When I said your anecdotal arguments fail, it's not because they are anecdotal (that would indeed be a style issue) it's because they address the question of whether or not it's economically beneficial to look for opportunities outside of the states, which is not the issue at hand. I, and surely most others on this board, would never say that Europe is, in general, a better place to get ahead and live a better quality of life. I don't think the article in question is saying this either. Obviously, it depends on one's own circumstances and particular situation. In other words, your preaching to the choir. I've already claimed, before you jumped into it, that it seems like a poor long-term financial strategy and mentioned that the paper provides arguments to that effect. The issues at hand are whether the paper is endorsing expatriation and/or dual-citizenship and whether securing dual-citizenship is basically like giving the finger to America. My answers to these questions are "No" and "Not necessarily."
Your rant about how I must hate America because I am critical about some elements of it is rank, unadulterated bullshit; as is, apparently, your own trendy sense of patriotism, to think that you are somehow more of an American. There have been great patriots and leaders who have endorsed a 'peacekeeping' approach to military, for instance; advocating aggressive foreign policy does not make one automatically more patriotic. You are proving yourself to be part of a toxic sub-group of Americans who think that patriotism means subscribing to each and every one of your preferred ideological values; and that everyone else just hates the U.S. And if Obama is elected and all of the apocalyptic things you predict do come to pass, and you become bitter about it, I still wouldn't suggest that you are "un-American," because I'm not shallow enough to believe that taking issue with the policies of a single group of politicians, during a brief moment in history, means that one is against the whole country.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Are you serious Jason?
June 10, 2008 - 23:24 ET by Dee BunkWhere have you criticized style? You told me I was making it personal despite the fact that you said things like "you're just making that up" to WTH and told me I was using "histrionics" even though you are the one going crazy about your so called patriotism being challenged and telling me I'm part of a "toxic subgroup" of Americans. Please Jason, call me unpatriotic. I think that's a little more flattering than "toxic subgroup".
I noticed that it is obvious you read my other posts but didn't comment on the fact that the "hard left" you singled out is who are controlling your party. There are no moderates in leadership in your party. They are all bought and paid for by the hard left.
I never said you hate America for being critical of people in it's ranks. You are making that up. I said you don't like it because you want to see it overhauled and have all this change change change that Obama talks about.
You have proved yourself to be from the toxic subgroup who wants to overhaul America into something different while claiming to love it. You don't care about what America stands for and what's different about it. That's why when I said I wouldn't like America if all the things I listed (that the Dems have proposed) happened. You said you still wouldn't think I was unpatriotic. It's still America to you with all those things I listed and can just be changed right back at anytime. Sorry, I don't agree. Once more huge entitlement programs are started, they never stop and people will be hooked on them.
It's not about one administration at all. Obama can't turn this country into a model of a European one in 8 years. He can lead us on our way to that though. I won't be able to hate the country in 8 yrs. I never said that. I'm not like those Bush haters that you vote for. As I said, I won't like it when it becomes like Europe (an even worse Europe because right now the Socialist countries still benefit from our markets. We pay the R&D for their health care).
So anyway - back to the main point of WTH's article which was spot on. In another post below you said that the way I would have stated the article would be biased. That's the point Jason. Mine would be biased Pro-American and this one is biased anti-American. Notice how you can see the bias when it's the other way? What's wrong with a pro-American bias from an American?
Pointing out that your
June 11, 2008 - 09:14 ET by JasonCPointing out that your arguments are histrionic, for instance, is part and parcel of critiquing those arguments. When you talk about "Style" I think of particular flourishes in people's writing like BT's rejoinder of "Cute by half" or Free stinker's scoreboard or Sarc's ability to inject Libertarianism into most arguments. Things unrelated to the core argument. If I tell Warner that I think he's fabricating bias in the Palm Beach Post or whatever, that's not a critique of his style; that's a pretty strong critique of the whole gist of his argument! And I have duly provided evidence and listened to Warner's counter-argument and we have agreed to disagree. So anyway, I think we're simply differing on what we mean by style.
If you didn't mean to imply that I am less of an American, or that I harbor some sort of hatred for it, because my opinions on policy differ in some ways from yours, then fantastic; I rescind my accusation that you belong to that despicable toxic subgroup. And for the record, I do believe that liberals who accuse conservatives of Fascism or whatever are on an equal footing of sliminess as those people. And I wouldn't call you unpatriotic, Dee, for the simple fact that you are clearly anything but. At any rate, I apologize for blowing up a bit there, I had just returned from a rather unpleasant dentist visit - not that that's an excuse, but you know....
As to the main point of the article: That's the point Jason. Mine would be biased Pro-American and this one
is biased anti-American. Notice how you can see the bias when it's the
other way? What's wrong with a pro-American bias from an American?
Don't patronize me. As I have made abundantly clear, I don't accept that there is an anti-American bias as it's written. If the article was written in a tone, or with the implication, that these people were brilliant to be leaving, and good riddance and all that, then fine. I did not pick up on any such tone, and I do pride myself on being a keen analyst of rhetoric. The way the you wanted the article to be written is flagrantly overcompensating for a bias that doesn't exist. Please, show me this bias without turning it into an argument about how moving to Europe is economically untenable - that's not the issue. Even some of the conservatives here have commented that they only infer bias because it's the MsM (and so it must naturally contain bias!) and not because of anything they can really pin down.
Finally, why why why do you keep bringing Obama into this? I must have been right about the ODS thing after all; you are obsessed with injecting him into a story that has nothing to do with him.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Only Jason would make Obama off limits to political discussion
June 11, 2008 - 13:50 ET by Dee Bunkbut not Sexual voyeurism. It's obvious why none of my arguments make sense to you. You are 100% partisan and are extremely selective in your indignation. I've been learning from you Jason. I'm just doing the same thing. There's nothing more to say about this. We disagree. I'm right and your wrong and it's as simple as that.
I'm happy that you are treating WTH with a little more respect. I'm glad to be the one you all can rally against. I haven't noticed nearly as much rude indignation to others lately.
Ta ta for now.
It's just not very a
June 11, 2008 - 14:51 ET by JasonCIt's just not very a propos, that's all; I don't see how he fits into this story or what we're supposedly arguing about; nor how you presume to know who I vote for and what major politicians I support. Hint: I virulently dislike Dems and Repubs alike, and wouldn't support either party, financially or at the polls, in their respective current incarnations.
Everybody on this site is a little bit selective in their indignation Dee, including you. Exempli gratia, your criticism of Shawn (and only Shawn) for the "sexual voyeurism" forum, while more or less suggesting that conservatives who were involved in that thread should be granted knighthood for their chivalrous ceasing of discussion.
Perhaps you haven't noticed "rude indignation" to others because most others haven't been responding negatively to me lately. You leapt to criticize my posts here and on the anti-/pro-American film debate, and so you and I have sparred more with each other than with others.
Since you only saw fit to reply to my very last afterthoughtish paragraph, I'll assume that you have nothing to say about my other comments, and that you don't accept my apology.
I've tried over and over again to steer our arguments on this thread back to the issue at hand. Nothing doing, apparently. This makes what, three boards this week that we've let devolve into bitching?
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
I'm not sure what you want from me Jason
June 11, 2008 - 20:41 ET by Dee BunkI guess I should have acknowledged your apology especially since I know it's really hard for you to do. But I was a lot less offended by you placing me in a "toxic subgroup" of Americans than I was at your piling on in lock step and still continuing to defend the sexual voyeurism thread and your complete lack of respect for me there.
Now you completely mischaricterize it again.
There's really nothing else you can say that's going to offend me the way that did so you don't need to apologize for anything anymore. You've lost the power to upset me after that. I got your message loud and clear. I can understand everyone else who piled on because I'd been fighting with them and they were getting back at me but with you it was different.
Like you said - we are all anonymous handles here. So no need for niceties. I disagree with your politics so I'll be most likely disagreeing with you when ever I see something from you on here. I know I was way out of line thinking that you had understood anything about what I was saying in the previous thread before the voyeurism one.
I've learned from you. I'm a little slow but I usually catch on eventually.
And besides which, I don't
June 10, 2008 - 10:55 ET by JasonCAnd besides which, I don't see any facts or details. I see "Yuh-huh, they are sooo bashing America." I see your assumption that I too hate the U.S. I see your stupid little Obama comment that you rescinded as a joke as soon as it was critiqued. And I see more of your (histrionic) belief that I'm just out to get Warner, even though you might notice that my exchanges with him have been perfectly civil, to the point that we're joking around about our past brouhahas. But I don't see facts or details, except for your anecdotal evidence of people who have lived in other countries, which missed the point of my argument anyway.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
well Jason you admitted
June 10, 2008 - 11:58 ET by Dee Bunkand responded to my facts so you must have seen something. You now say that some of the posters comments were silly but originally claimed that they were not. You only highlighted the things that were not that bad.
Now you complain about my anecdotal evidence but have no problems with the articles anecdotal evidence. I'm not allowed to respond to anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence? Well that's a way to make sure I lose the argument. All these rules of arguing are always one sided.
I don't think you are "out to get" Warner. I just think you are disrespectful of conservatives and run around here all high and mighty with your nose in the air when you've got your own glass house that could use some good old fashioned wood. So we'll fix our house, you fix your own and if you finish first then you can help us with ours. If you can make the Daily Kos and some of those hateful liberal websites as good as Newsbusters then I'll be really impressed and might take a few of your style tips.
Until then visit our imperfect house with a little more humility. Ours is farther along than yours.
I remember some major
June 9, 2008 - 19:38 ET by JasonCI remember some major controversies with some very spirited back and forth. It was a ton of fun.
Exactly, I agree. And we both get a little 'over-spirited' sometimes, and that's even more fun. Remember the Choate thing? Whew.
I assume that you generally find my wrong-headedness as amusing as I sometimes find yours.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
LOL Dee, I think MV was
June 9, 2008 - 17:54 ET by JasonCLOL Dee, I think MV was referring to you. He can correct me if I'm wrong.
OMG...
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
Do you really think Jason?
June 9, 2008 - 17:56 ET by Dee BunkDuh - I was being sarcastic. It's hard for you self righteous ones to notice, I know.
So was I, Dee. Duh? LOL?
June 9, 2008 - 18:00 ET by JasonCSo was I, Dee.
Duh? LOL? Is this really Dee and not her kid I'm talking too?
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.
My kid sure kicks your but doesn't he
June 9, 2008 - 18:02 ET by Dee BunkYou poor thing
I'm pretty certain he
June 9, 2008 - 19:07 ET by JasonCI'm pretty certain he could.
Il y a la merde quel remort produit quand il a mange trop stupidite.