Paper: I Know, Let's Compromise Our Rights Away!


Columnist Tom Eblen of the Lexington [Ky.] Herald-Leader has proven to the world that he doesn't know what a "right" is. He thinks it is something that you can "compromise" over. He thinks it is something that can be endlessly tinkered with. He seems not to realize that a "right" is something that is supposed to be insoluble, unchangeable, permanent. Worse, he has equated an American right to the horse raising industry as if the business decisions made by a handful of ranchers is somehow comparable to the observance and maintenance of our rights. Ridiculously he says that if we don't compromise this one right, our 2nd Amendment right, it will be taken away. And hypocritically, after using fear to urge us to compromise, he accuses those of us interested in safeguarding the 2nd Amendment of using "fear" tactics.

This latest op ed, "NRA's slippery slope full of holes," was the result of some flack he took for touting the existence of a small gun owner's organization that many NRA members claim is a front group for an anti-gun group. He wrote admiringly about this small group and was assailed by emails and messages informing him that he was giving support to a stealth gun grabbing group and, instead of checking out the group more thoroughly, these emails seemed to set Eblen off. Typical of a self-righteous denizen of the media, instead of finding out if the complaint letters were right and reassessing his original support, Eblen merely lashed out at 2nd Amendment supporters who alerted him to his mistake. (In fact, Eblen doesn't even bother to try to find out more about the small gun group he wrote about before merely blowing off his obligation to be informed about what he writes.)

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So, off Eblen goes wagging his finger at 2nd Amendment supporters telling them that their "hard-line views" and their use of "fear" to sell gun rights is the wrong track to take. He particularly focuses on the fear aspect, claiming that this is an illegitimate way to advocate for our rights. But, even as he claims the NRA illegitimately uses "fear" he uses fear himself to claim that if we don't compromise our rights away we will lose all of them.

If Second Amendment absolutists keep standing up and daring others to pry their guns from their "cold, dead fingers," eventually somebody's going to do it.

If that isn't using fear to sell his own point, what is?

Eblen tells us that we just have to understand, guns are dangerous, so we must "compromise."

But gun violence and crime are serious problems. The no-compromise crowd has kept law enforcement agencies from having some tools they need to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and crazy people. And that has led to some over-reaching, such as when police in New Orleans illegally seized hundreds of guns after Hurricane Katrina.

Without some intelligent compromises, each new tragedy, like the Virginia Tech or Columbine massacres, will prompt more emotional calls for banning guns. All guns. There are zealots on both sides.

And he has found the perfect example, he thinks, to show us the way: the "horse industry."

The NRA and other gun groups could learn something from the horse industry.

High-profile deaths of horses in Thoroughbred racing and eventing have created some public backlash against those sports. Rather than stonewall, though, horse industry leaders are aggressively working to make their sports safer. They love horses, sure, but they also realize that their sports could live or die with public opinion.

Have you ever heard anything so ignorant as this? Imagine, to compare the maintenance of a Constitutional right to raising horses? Would Eblen think that comparing abortion to gardening would be an apt comparison? How about if we compare a discussion of the death penalty to punishment for small time retail theft? Would these have any sensible relation one to the other? I'll answer for you, Mr. Eblen... NO is your answer.

The discussion of our Constitutional rights is in such a different class of import that comparing the "horse industry" to the policies concerning the 2nd Amendment is as absurd, simple-minded, and just off track as can be imagined.

So, to wrap up his bad analysis and his casual treatment of our rights, Eblen assures us that all will be well if only we just forget about all this standing up for our principles business.

As society becomes more diverse, we must regain the lost art of compromise. Otherwise, we'll never be able to deal with complex problems in ways that protect everyone's rights. Polarization may be good for special-interest groups and political parties, but it's bad for America.

But there is a great flaw in Eblen's little argument, here. You see, the 2nd Amendment isn't just a law that we can change at will, compromise over repeatedly, and do away with if it is inconvenient.

You see, the 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional right, not just an average, everyday law.

Let me put it this way: should we compromise on who should be allowed to vote? How about property rights, should we easily give away our rights to be secure in our property? Maybe the right to a speedy trial isn't so important? How about all that "pursuit of happiness" stuff? Is that all fluff and nonsense, too, Mr. Eblen? What other rights do you think we should so easily disregard as insoluble? What other rights do you think aren't important enough to maintain as unbreakable?

One does not negotiate away one's rights, Mr. Eblen. Rights are given to us by our creator and the 2nd Amendment is just as much a right as any. You need, Mr. Eblen, to learn what the right to self protection means before you so casually cast it aside to achieve that supposed safety you desire. When Ben Franklin was heard to tell his fellow Americans that we had a republic if we could keep it, he was talking to you, Mr. Eblen. He was telling you not to throw away your rights to achieve just a little safety.

In fact, Ben Franklin also addressed the "safety" question.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

You are obviously not listening, Mr. Eblen. Let us hope no one is listening to you, as well.


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UK gone, Aussie's in line of fire.

An editor of a newspaper without the brains to look at countries that have compromised they're rights away. The UK is hanging by the skin of it's teeth and soon will fall to Islam. All of Europe won't be far behind and this time the American cowards, aka democrats,  will have made sure there is no rescue team. The Aussie's are suffering more crime than at any time in their history. Both countries are dying at the hands of liberal gun control nuts, and being taken over by outsiders and have no weapons to fight back and no government with the balls to fight back. The U.S. is teetering on the edge of disaster with the Islamic terrorists (show me an Islamist that isn't a terrorist, they say there are some, but I've never seen one) we have already allowed in the country and the American people will pay with their lives, and soon. If the dummies running the news and those running the government (half a**) can't see it coming I pity the young people in this country.

 

 

Old, Retired and glad of it.

My cold, dead hands

Someone may one day take my guns from my cold, dead hands, but it won't be a wuss like the author of this story.

I have often said that you can arm an honest man with a nuke and nobody would get hurt.  He's worried about crime from illegal guns?  My answer, arm every law-abiding citizen that shows the skill and desire to carry a weapon.  My 66 year old Mother just got her concealed carry permit.  What would she do against a young criminal without a gun?  It wouldn't be pretty.  Now it wouldn't be pretty for the criminal.

Libs are truly nuts!  GO NRA! 

You are right...

this guy will be hiding behind you and your Mom. He will be hiding behind me and my son also. This guy is so ignorant. I sure find myself using that comment on this site quite a bit, of course, I find so many in the media ignorant these days.

Gun Grabbers plain dangerous

Funny how many liberal people never learn from history or bother figuring out why we HAVE a 2nd Admendment right. Libs, stick your head in sand now... That could NEVER happen hear; a government out of control & to be feared? I need to protect myself? Why gosh big brother will do that for us. Just wait for the next huge disaster; bigger than Katrina. Like the tsunami that may take out the entire East Coast due to a Canary Island dropping into the ocean. Or political; some DEM nuts get the White House, Congress & Senate, kill out "accidentally" the Supreme Court conservative trouble makers & put their own people in. Rights? What rights? Now they are gone... poof. Presidential order with Military enforcement. Or UN enforcement; more likely.

"show me an Islamist that

"show me an Islamist that isn't a terrorist, they say there are some, but I've never seen one"

 Easily done.  <=== This Moslem is not a Terrorist.

oh the drama... been to

oh the drama...

been to the UK lately? I'm there once a year, my in-laws are British...

happy to report there's still quite a ways to go before Sharia law takes effect - a good 2 or 3 thousand years i'd say:)...

in the meantime - check out these Muslim terrorists..."pretty" scary:

http://www.muslimgirlworld.com/mgmag/

oooh, I am such a scared American conservative! Help! Save me from these terrorist ladies...!!!!

flashback to 1934... oh the

flashback to 1934...

oh the drama...

been to Germany lately? I'm there once a year, my in-laws are German...

happy to report there's still quite a ways to go before Nazi rule takes effect - a good 2 or 3 thousand years i'd say:)...

in the meantime - check out these Jewish terrorists..."pretty" scary:

http://www.jewishvir...

oooh, I am such a scared German Jew! Help! Save me from these terrorist ladies...!!!!

excellent point Warner

I'm always amazed by how people can be so naive to the dangers of this world.

Chamberlain promised "peace in our time" when he met with the Nazis a few years later, as Charles Lindbergh reassured Americans that our surrounding oceans would protect us from the war.

Things often change more quickly than we expect.

very true candance - you're

very true candance - you're so naive about the dangers of religous bigotry...it's truly amazing:)!

...why the hell have I been so vocally supporting the WOT? I'm supposed to be appeasing, dammit:(...

haven't been taking my naive pills again!

As are the dangers of

As are the dangers of religious apologetics.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

the ultimate religous apologist

Jesus, my Lord and Savior

the ultimate religous apologist

very dangerous indeed:)!

Might have a problem with

Might have a problem with that in your beloved islamist countries. You know, all those guys you keep defending?

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

I don't defend Islam - I

I don't defend Islam - I rebuke religous bigots - be they against Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Catholics, protestant fundies like myself, or any other faith that;s out there...

as for my "beloved Islamic countries" the strong liklihood of crucifixion is part of the Christian deal of bearing your own cross...

TM: You might recall that

TM:

You might recall that unlike Mohammad, Jesus did not base his religion on internecine tribal warfare and the desire to attach the trade routes running through his neighborhood..

...Just saying....

...I'll add that to my "Why

...I'll add that to my "Why I'm a Jesus Freak" list, then:)

It would be good to

It would be good to remember that Christianity was originally based upon the direct opposite of warfare.

But not saying it was not based in conflict.

that's not at all what i've

that's not at all what i've hearing from the pew

http://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-warfare.html

what's your take on spiritual warfare?

What is it? I am not

What is it? I am not familiar with the term.

BD

Paul tells us in the Bible that our enemy is not flesh and blood but spiritual darkness. This is the principle of spiritual warfare: praying through your problems, preaching the gospel to your enemies, and hating the sin without the sinner.

Truthie is often enchanted with Muslim clerics who say "the Bible mentions spiritual warfare and that's the same as our holy warfare!"

Yeah, I see a dividing line

Yeah, I see a dividing line between proselytizing to your enemy in the hopes of conversion to your cause and wrapping a young kid up in a suicide vest with 108 ten penny nails attached to create more shrapnel and sending him into a school.

Wonder which one TM will abet?

 

actually

Actually, a good translation of the Greek says 'we wrestle against persons without bodies' and the struggle is against 'rulerships and the realms of their authority, world rulers of the present darkness and spirits of wickedness in the heavenlies.' The world lies "in darkness" as its people are rebels by birth and nature. The Christian life is characterized by Paul as a race and a fight.

maybe not so

Jesus wasn't religous and he wasn't an apologist. Truth is a person. Piety characterized His life.

Well done, Warner!

Well done, Warner!

TM... I have read for a

TM...

I have read for a long time the stuff you write and link to to support your reasons for working with Islam, and I must say I don't exactly get where you are coming from. Most of the time you seem to be an apologist for the terrorists, so I pretty much shrug off any of your suggestions. Today I have decided to give you a suggestion that you can pass on to your Muslim friends.

Have as many peace loving Clerics start to teach from their pulpit that "Paradise" is full. Once the word get's around a lot of terrorists will lose their reason to kill others in the name of Allah.

So start spreading the news.

"Abstain from McCain"

"happy to report there's

"happy to report there's still quite a ways to go before Sharia law takes effect - a good 2 or 3 thousand years i'd say:)... "

Truthie, this is, like most of your other posts here, a load of balderdash.   It appears that Sharia is already being applied within the United kingdom and it has some supporters.   The 2 or 3 thousand years went quickly, didn't it.

NL and warner, you ignorant sluts:)...

gad warner, invoking the Nazi's (???) - how much do they pay you here...

just a few quick corrections...
change the "Jewish terrorists" to "Nazi terrorists..."
change the link to Nazi models...
change "German Jew!" to "German Liberal!" (being that Hitler was a right-winger)
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005208

-----------------
TODAY'S FREE MODERN HISTORY LESSON

Germany 1934:

Hitler is already in power, invoking Nazi laws...

http://www.humanitas-international.org/holocaust/1934tbse.htm

NL and Warner's UK 2008:

British Prime Minister OBL heads the British government, invoking Sharia laws...!

January 1, 2008 British Prime Minister OBL writes a letter of gratitude to his friend, WTH.

January 1, 2008 All Christian holidays are removed from official British calendars.

January 2, 2008 A British law is passed for sterilization of the "infidels."

January 7, 2008  Britian bars "infidels" from adopting children.

January 9, 2008  A student union in London calls for a boycott of university classes until anti-infidel legislation is passed.

January 11, 2008 The homes of dissident British clergymen are raided by Al-Queda.

January 15, 2008 An anti-infidel exhibition opens in London.

January 15, 2008 PM OBL orders Al-Queda to arrest and question all political emigres and infidels returning to Britian.

January 15, 2008 PM OBL demands that all infidels representing British companies abroad be dismissed from their positions.

...all women are covered from head to toe in Public, dancing and music is banned, etc, etc, etc...

------------
Check yourself in the mirror, Warner - you sound just like Adolph yourself sometimes...

http://newsbusters.org/forums/woodshed/nbs-very-own-bigot-17719

Read guys (unlike you and the book-burning Nazi's) - and maybe grow a frackin brain - the world already has plenty of religious bigots...

http://www.humanitas-international.org/holocaust/homepage.htm

...well done, TM!
...thanks, TM!

TM:         384187461987513807561409857610856
religious bigots:    0

Nothing you have said

Nothing you have said contravenes the established fact that Sharia law is being applied today on British soil in lieu of English law.

I don't care if your wife is or once was a British Subject.  That also does not obviate the established fact.  I will add yet another link indicating Moslems are erecting their own system of law in defiance of British Sovreignty.  "The Shariah Council in Britain has been carrying out these services for over two decades with nary a squeak of protest from the "one law for all" brigade.""

The best you seem able to do is call me a bigot.  If that is your best shot in this debate, then go ahead and take it.  But, as everyone here but you can plainly see, you have already lost this argument.

...probably because

...probably because I don't dispute the established fact that Sharia law is being applied today on British soil in lieu of English law. I'm contravening the BS from scrapiron, and apparrently also you and Warner, that "the UK is hanging by the skin of it's teeth and soon will fall to Islam."  

...your particular links state that a few Muslims practice Sharia law on their own - but that it's not officially recognized by British law - now is this supposed to be your victorious supporting evidence that indeed yes "the UK is hanging by the skin of it's teeth and soon will fall to Islam?" Is this what you have proclaimed as "winning the argument?" If so then that's what I would proclaim as "accute delusionary psychosis..."

...and this last link you posted states that Jews have had their own law (Beth Din) officially recongnized in the UK for decades already...in "defiance of British sovereignty" - and somehow the UK has yet to become a Jewish state...

but congrats on "winning the argument, bud!"

Short memory, I

Short memory, I see.

"happy to report there's still quite a ways to go before Sharia law takes effect - a good 2 or 3 thousand years i'd say:)...

Whiskey delta bud.

"takes

But if law other than what

But if law other than what is based origianally on English Common law (Inherent right to property etc) is being applied based on the whims of an ingressing minority, how long CAN the common rule of law last?

Can I go to England and say "Hey, my second Amdnment authorizes me to pack my Colt on my hip" and you have to allow me?  Highly imporper and unlikely.

So why should Sharia Law be considered differently.  It is this consideration which is troubling.  I believe it is based on the PC Self loathing found in western civilization by people who have never seen the difference.

I believe those of us who have lived in countries under Sharia are the least likely to put up with this failed culture in lands that should know better.

well BD you have several

well BD you have several problems with this...

the second amendment is not religous law like Sharia - but never mind that...

there are thousands and thousands of Muslims who live in the UK who wish to practice Sharia law, whereas you would be just one person, visiting for a week or so - but never mind that...

UK Jews have had Beth Din officially recognized for decades already - and the UK is still not a Jewish state...

I'm against Sharia law - but co-existence is part of the civiliation deal - we should at least be able to dialogue about these things as adults...it's our civic responsibility...we accomodate the Amish and Native Americans on this already... 

the second amendment is not

the second amendment is not religous law like Sharia - but never mind that...

If Sharia were only being used in religious settings, no problem.  That is not the case.  Nor does Sharia law specifically aportion between religious and non-religous law (As anyone who has faced the mutawa in KSA can tell you).

there are thousands and thousands of Muslims who live in the UK who wish to practice Sharia law,

And I am certian you might be able to find thousands of US citizens in England who would feel more comfortable packing.

You might also find thousands of young catholics (Eastern orthodox and Roman) who wish to follow canonical law as well.

There is an increasing number of Mormans conducting missions to the UK.  Should they be allowed to take direction from Salt Lake City regarding which local laws to follow?

(show me an Islamist that

(show me an Islamist that isn't a terrorist, they say there are some, but I've never seen one)

Hakeem Olajuwon

Muhammad Ali

Dave Chappelle

No kidding?

 Dave Chappelle? of the Chappelle Show, wow, he cant be in good standing with them, if they were all like him we would be having some fun about now.

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

Concur that not all islamic

Concur that not all islamic persons are terorirsts.

But you are hard pressed to find a large element (Thousands) of religious terrorists who are not islamic.

Very true. Or we never hear

Very true. Or we never hear about them. :-)

I don't hear much about the Amish hijacking covered wagons.

Naw, it is those damn

Naw, it is those damn Quakers and Shakers who do it every time....

if you go back over decades

if you go back over decades or centuries it's not so hard...

of course it's completely and totally impossible for Christians to ever rebuild the KKK or the IRA, or become terrorists or Nazi soldier's once again...despite the proliferation of neo-nazi groups and the new IRA over the last few years...we hope... 

TM: Lets talk today.  I

TM:

Lets talk today.  I could ALWAYS make the case that there were terorrists in Hammarabic Mesopotamia, but it is not indicative of the current situation regarding a religion. 

At its height, the Provos consisted of just under 900 members in Northern Island.

The KKK today is made up of perhaps a similar number of chuckleheads.

The Nazi's and Commies in the 1940's perhaps had a religious element to them in that they worshipped the state.  Much the same can be said for liberals.  But that was the 40's not today.

 

"if you go back over

"if you go back over decades or centuries it's not so hard..."

Sure, we can go back to the Crusades if you want. Which, I understand, is seen by many as a response to Islamic aggression. But that's not the point.

The fact that some people of some religions have done terrible things is no excuse for others to do the same or worse.

And none of your examples (save the Nazis, which were not a religious group by any stretch) includes a multi-national group waging concerted war on civilization. Here we have a large minority of Muslims doing that very thing. And many of those who don't participate in the terror seem to support it (witness the dancing in many Muslim streets over the fall of the WTC).

I have no doubt that many Muslims do not approve of the way their religion has been hijacked by these monsters. But where are they? Why do we not hear from them, if they in fact don't agree with the aims and methods of these fanatics?

And how to explain the fact that the Koran actually seems to approve of this kind of behavior? Lying to infidels is okay, killing those who leave Islam is okay, killing infidels is WAY okay. What about that?

"Democracy is two wolves

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote."

   - Ben Franklin

2nd Amendment Primer

I don't know if it is still in print, but a small pocket book called the 2nd Amendment Primer is one I recommend. It highlights a lot of items in the Federalist Papers as well as a number of court cases in a quick and easy read. Also much easier to have with you in your travels than a copy of the Federalist Papers.

Author: Les Adams

Publisher: Palladium Press, Birmingham AL.

If you get a copy, let me know what you think.

I have it...

And I like it quite a bit.

WTH

Sheepdog here!

I'm sure many have read this, but I thought it worth another look if you have not read it.

Go ahead, I dare ya!

"If Second Amendment absolutists keep standing up and daring others to
pry their guns from their "cold, dead fingers," eventually somebody's
going to do it.
"

I'd like to see someone try that with me. Unlike this idiot, I'm not about to hand over my right to keep and bear arms to anyone, unless it's a cop with an arrest warrant, and then I better get it back after I'm released. Since I haven't broken any laws, I'm not worried about that.

What fools like this fail to understand is that our rights are only afforded to us as long as we're willing to fight to keep them. If we're unwilling to fight for our rights, we won't have them for long. I happen to like the rights I'm afforded in this country and I'm willing to fight and die to keep them for myself and for others. Can this fool say the same, or will he hide behind the gun holder when push comes to shove? I have the feeling that it will be the latter and not the former with fools like this.

BTW,

well thought out rebuttal, enjoyed your comments Warner.

I'll compromise

Let's see, the country is roughly split 50-50 idealogically, so how about conservatives keep all of their rights, and liberals give up all of theirs. That should balance out quite nicely.

lol restless

I got a chuckle out of that. Well played.

I'm not much for compromise...

Since I'd like to own an Ithaca "Auto & Burglar" and "compromise" means that to do it I'd have to jump through NFA-hoops, but I found this article thought-provoking.

Any compromisers would need to beware of an eventual NRA-monopoly, because (to be brutally-frank) the NRA has been inside the beltway for too long. They can't be trusted to act in gun owners' interest without a plethora of smaller, less well known groups like GOA & JPFO looking over their shoulders, and those groups need the right to compete with the NRA like PADI competes with NAUI, even if the competition causes "confusion."

And I'd want any proposed compromise to end/reverse the little-known UN program that's destroying surplus military ammunition (expensively) instead of allowing it to be shipped to Knob Creek, as well as ending stupid-ass restrictions such as the NFA limitations on buying an "Auto & Burglar" 20GA short barreled shotgun and suppressors ("silencers") for rifles & pistols. US shooters should also be able to buy post 1986 machineguns lawfully.

Ammunition costs are being used to gradually make shooting a sport for the rich, at taxpayer expense and in coordination with the anti gun dictator protection racket at the UN. There's no logical reason for US law to restrict a device as useful as the Ithaca Auto & Burglar gun, either. As for suppressors, believe it or not, shooting with one does not magically turn you into a mafia killer, despite continual media-myths to the contrary. The noise pollution from shooting is one big reason the sport doesn't spread better in the USA, so these stupid-ass restrictions (which harm shooters' hearing! Where's OSHA??) need to end. That means going on offense, not just accepting compromises.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

I read the article

And then perhaps we can 'certify' people who are allowed to speak their minds. A right as powerful as free speech should not be entrusted to the ignorant folks who might harm others. We quite obviously already are in need of a certification process to vote. I could go on.

I'll accede to the gun test if the Monitor will agree that no rights should be granted without certification. 

 

Yeah, that's my problem with it as well

But clearly diving, a very dangerous sport, gets a lot less government thrown at it than firearms, in part because of their self-licensure stance. If there's going to be licensing anyway, then it would be best done by a nongovernmental entity in competition with others. Even then, such a compromise would only be acceptable if accompanied by cheap surplus ammo in defiance of the UN, 100%-legal short barrel shotguns, and legal "silencers" in the hardware stores, just like they have in Finland. These compromises aren't likely on either side of the issue.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

GOVERNMENT SHOULD FEAR THE PEOPLE

The Founders were far wiser than any of the the pipsqueaks that masquerade as politicians and jounalists. They knew that an armed citizenry was responsible for throwing off the yoke of a tyranical government. The Minute Men who stood at Lexington and at Concord bridge were protecting themselves from their government that had sent troops to seize citizens and their guns! They enshrined the right of self defense in the constitution as an Individual Right which can not be compromised away! I wonder if this anal orifice of an journalist would feel the same way if his right to write his garbage were compromised? I think not! So he can keep his compromising hands off my guns or he can come and try to take them from me. Go ahead, stupid, just try it!

The only rights idiot

The only rights idiot Liberals recognize are the right to murder unborn babies and the right of the government to control every other aspect of your life.

I'm a little unsure about

I'm a little unsure about how I feel about the second amendment.  It's there for two major purposes: hunting and revolution against a totalitarian government.  Without a doubt, this purpose would mean that civilians should be allowed to arm themselves with high powered weaponry, so as to compete with the forces such a government would use against them.  It does seem that we're coming to a time when this amendment is becoming quite important when socialism/communism is nearing implementation.

On the flip side, I loathe guns.  I personally would rather see that nobody owned guns, that the technology had never been invented.  Unfortunately, that's a silly utopian idea.  Allowing everyone to own guns is also a utopian concept, because humans are so predisposed to violence and far too many have no reservations against killing to meet their own ends.  In the end, I guess this really means that I'm in favor of pre-screening a person before allowing them to purchase guns.  Also, we should be more aggressively cracking down on gangs.

While I'm rambling I'll touch down on a tangential issue.  It's tiring that the law gives me so much trouble over my possession of bladed weapons and the use of my bow.  I love blades and archery, but the police always give me trouble when I practice using them in a nearby field.  Far too many places don't allow me to carry a simple pocket knife, which is more a tool than a weapon (though I've used it for protection).

There's an issue when the government refuses citizens the right to recreation and the independence to protect themselves when policing is insufficient.

I'm confused

You say that guns should not be owned by anyone in your utopia, yet you use a bow and carry knives.  What in the heck is the frikin' difference?  How about clubs, bottles, rebar, shards of glass etc?  Are you going to outlaw everything that is a weapon?  What kills the most people in America?  People you dimwit!  Take away the car and 50,000 plus lives will be saved.  Take away knives and more thousands will be saved. 

 many places don't allow me to carry a simple pocket knife, which is more a tool than a weapon (though I've used it for protection).

Guess how we gun owners feel.  I don't get you.

 

 

My utopia?  I in no way

My utopia?  I in no way seek utopia.  The only way to insure such a state is to completely change how humans think and act.  An interesting example of such is presented in the movie Equilibrium. 

As for my own weapons, I collect them because I simply like blades and the skill it takes to use them well.  I carry a knife most of the time because it's a good tool.  I've used it in self-defense as well, but simply as a threat so I wouldn't need to take stronger physical measures.  I can't help seeing a gun as much more than an instrument of death.  I understand your reasons for defending the right to have one, but in defending your right to own you are also defending your attacker's right. 

You think I'm being hypocritical because I specify one type of weapon that I'm not in favor of.  It is true that nearly anything can be used as a weapon.  The human body itself is a weapon if a person intends it to be.  My issue with guns is that their almost singular purpose is to kill.  It is a simple act to commit using one.  It is also the current favorite means by which humans kill one another. 

The most dangerous thing here is the human mind.  I'm arguing that not everybody should have such an effective tool to carry out their desires.  I might add that the right to drive a car is often taken away for any number of criminal offenses.  Several requirements must be met before you acquire the right to drive.  We already heavily monitor this instrument which causes so much death.  It's my opinion that we simply do a bit more for an item that is used with the intent to kill.

A gun is a tool, same as a

A gun is a tool, same as a knife or sword or a screwdriver. Seems to me more people die by knife than by gun, (non combat deaths). And I do belive the most combat deaths are by detonation of explosives. So your argument wont hold up. I collect knives, swords, guns and even have a mace and a morning star. Also bows and have one spear point I found some years back. To shoot a gun, requires practice, patience steady hands and a good eye. If you dont belive me, try plinking tin cans at 2 or 3 hundred yards. I do belive that knives were designed to kill. That was the purpose for all such weapons. The bow also had only one purpose, to kill. 

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You know knives are nice

You know knives are nice when you need to open a pack of bologna, but when my wife is facing a 6 foot something goon (and her only being 5'2" - yes with eyes of blue), I prefer her having a 380 auto in her hand. I'm sure you're a regular Charley Bronson and can take on two charging rhinos with nothing but a swiss army knife, but removing legal handguns almost invariably removes the only reasonable means of self defence for some people. And a knife has no knockdown capability, you had best be strong enough to stay alive long enough for your adversary to bleed out.

 

"Whatever Michelle Says Is The Message." –
Senator Barack Obama October 1, 2007, Chicago HQ

Your logic is flawed...

...what is your bow primarily used for? Ah, target practice you say...that's strange - that's the primary use of my firearms, imagine that?!? But I can assure of one thing, in the event I needed to stop a home invasion I bet I could get to my "tool of choice" quicker and have a better chance to save my family and survive than you would, even if you could get to your "tool" in time to fight back.

Furthermore, your comment..."you are also defending your attacker's right." is ignorant at best...the last time I looked, violent criminals (those most likely to attack others) are NOT allowed to own guns in the first place. So if they have one, or more, it's not because they have lobbied to maintain their "rights" to own them. They've most likely obtained the guns illegally and in that case, neither the law nor the bleeding heart liberals will keep them from attempting to kill me, my family or you and your family for that matter; of course with their illegal gun(s).

Re-think your logic. It doesn't jive.

How is it ignorant to say

How is it ignorant to say that you defend your attacker's right to have a weapon?  Look to the our justice system to see how well our criminals are prosecuted.  "Innocent till proven guilty."  Till they're proven guilty and locked away or given a taste of their own medicine, they are free to use their constutional right to acquire a firearm and use it against you.  Just as a criminal can sneak into your house and take your own weapon if it's so readily available. 

Defend your rights and fight fire with fire, but I do not see how more gun owners equates to less violence. 

What are you in favor of? Are you only in favor of your right to defend yourself with lethal force?  Then you're also in favor of anyone else who wants one to be able to acquire one.  Unless that person is a convicted criminal.  Then the right(privelege) has been forfeited. 

I wish you the best of luck should your hypothetical situation ever come to be.  Feel free to give me a hearty "I told you so" if it happens to me and I go for the gun in my house.

"I do not see how more gun

"I do not see how more gun owners equates to less violence."

I have some links here, but since most of them are from organizations that favor concealed carry, you will probably discount them. There is one from the Cato Institute, and another from a university study. But, strangely enough, these stats are not really trumpeted by media outlets. Wonder why?

Also, above you tried to draw some parallel between the 2nd Amendment and the "right" to drive. Sorry, as any teen studying for their first license could tell you, driving is a privilege, not a right. Much the same as comparing gun rights with horse racing. But "the right to keep and bear arms" is enshrined in a Constitutional Amendment all it's own.

The facts show, time and again, that loosening prohibitions on armed citizens does in fact lower crime rates. You don't have to understand how it works to see that it does work.

Another indication is, where do most gun crimes take place? In the cities that have the strictest gun prohibition laws, that's where! New York, D.C., Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles. In states where right to carry laws are implemented, crime goes down. It's a fact. When criminals have to judge whether a potential victim may be armed, they tend to err on the side of caution. When they are mostly assured a victim is unarmed, they feel safer to go about their business.

Finally, a right-to-carry law protects more than just those who choose to carry a gun for protection. Since the criminal has no way of knowing who's armed, those that are not armed share the protection inherent in that uncertainty.

 

"...but I do not see how

"...but I do not see how more gun owners equates to less violence."

Could it be that you don't want to see or know how?   

"Abstain from McCain"

Those are biased sources,

Those are biased sources, but I'll take them for what they're worth.  Ok, more guns=less violence.  Let's try it on a broader scope.  Since I'm already going to be labeled a liberal for not fully being on the right side of the gun issue, I'll go with the liberal way and just preach "change."  Implement the concealed carry policies more widely and see how things turn out.  I can see how either side works logically.  The difference is obviously that it's harder to control people than to let nature play its course.  I wish the best of luck for getting the laws passed and for things to work out as these studies show.

I wasn't the one to parallel driving and the second amendment.  That parallel was an argument used against me.  It seems to me that the right to bear arms is actually a privelege.  You need a license to drive as you need a license to carry.  Many crimes and violations can remove that right/privelege.  I didn't create the parallel, I just put a different angle on it.

It's interesting that you quote some of the larger cities.  Could the gun violence be attributed to culture, living conditions, and other factors more than prohibition laws?  Your characterization of the common criminal is spot on.  If the data is showing that more restrictions equates to more crime, then let's reverse the laws and see if the trend reverses.

Your final conclusion, while accurate, when adjusted would account for rising gang activity.  When you can't be certain you're better equipped, there is always strength in numbers. 

TheDude, you said

 It seems to me that the right to bear arms is actually a privelege. 

And where do you see the word privilege in any of the 10 amendments? That is revisionist thought. Had it been intended to be a privilege, they would have said "the privilege to bare arms..."

Have you ever read the Constitution?? You dont much sound like it.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!