CNN Tries a Gotcha: 'Thompson Has No Hunting License'...So What?

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CNN has posted a Political Ticker entry trying to create a "gotcha" on 2nd Amendment supporter, Fred Thompson. CNN's South Carolina Producer Peter Hamby has breathlessly announced that "Thompson does not have hunting license," but the question is... so what? Do you HAVE to own a hunting license to be for the 2nd Amendment? Does Fred not owning a hunting license disqualify him as a gun rights advocate? Well, it appears that CNN imagines that you are illegitimate if you claim to support the 2nd Amendment yet you don't have a valid hunting license. What we end up with here is proof that CNN doesn't have a clue what it means to own a gun, what it means to support gun rights, nor do they understand the 2nd Amendment itself, or that there are various "gun cultures" and levels of interest and usage for guns in the United States.

Of course, CNN's allusion to that claim is absurd. It is perfectly legitimate to support the 2nd Amendment without being a hunter.

Here's CNN's set up:

COLUMBIA, South Carolina (CNN) -- Fred Thompson has made a point of visiting gun shops and gun shows while hitting the campaign trail in New Hampshire and South Carolina, usually with camera crews in tow.

And now what Hamby imagines is the strike out pitch:

But Thompson said Wednesday he does not have a hunting license, nor has be been hunting recently.

Now, anyone interested in the Constitution, history, guns as a hobby, guns as historical artifacts, target shooting, Civil War and Revolutionary War reenacting, or Cowboy shooting will know right away that CNN's gotcha is a meaningless point to flog. All those interested in the gun hobbies and causes mentioned above have no necessary connection to hunting whatsoever. Folks who like target shooting, reenacting or history might also be hunters, but many are not. Yet they are ALL for 2nd Amendment rights, hunting or no.

Let's use me for instance. I am interested in guns as historical artifacts. I have a collection of guns from the early 1800s to current era examples. At this time I have over 25 different weapons of various eras. Yet, I have never used a gun to kill a living thing. I have never been hunting and I have never owned a hunting license. I'm not against hunting, it just has never been my interest. I know hundreds of gun enthusiasts in my area of interest and only a small percentage of them are avid hunters. Heck, some never even fire their guns being only interested in the collecting aspect of firearms.

Yet, here is CNN acting as if Thompson should be looked at askance because he does not currently have a hunting license, quite despite that he has had them in the past and been hunting many, many times throughout his life (unlike Mitt Romney who claimed to be a hunter "all his life," yet had only hunted twice during that same lifetime). CNN seems to have no idea that there is more to gun enthusiasm than hunting.

Let us also visit the actual 2nd Amendment for a second, shall we? In fact, the 2nd Amendment has no discussion of hunting in it at all. It is the military usage of guns and the protection they afford that the 2nd Amendment is interested in, not hunting. That being true, it is perfectly in keeping with the 2nd Amendment to never hunt at all, yet still be interested in safeguarding that right to own firearms.

So, even if Thompson never hunted a day in his life, he can still be a perfectly legitimate spokesman for 2nd Amendment rights. Not that CNN has even the vaguest grasp of the issue, obviously.

The gotcha didn't work CNN. Back to the drawing board. Oh, and, Peter Hamby should do himself a favor and actually read the Constitution next time he tries a foray into questions the answers to which are so obviously over his head!


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Heck, the networks are just

Heck, the networks are just going to try anyway possible to do the "Can I get me hunting' license here"...with some kind of a fake comparison to  Kerry...

I worry not about this.

Big times are coming down the pike Warner..Thompson is just gonna' take that dueling pistol out so cleaned and prepared.. aim it good when we get to the SC primary..that nobody-on either coasts are gonna' know what hit them!

Of course that is just my opinion..and my opinion has been so wrong before...LOL!

Take it for what you will...but really they are in the desperation mode...the long knives aren't even out yet, let alone the ones' that bother to sharpen them on their tripe. 

It fits the standard of

It fits the standard of what the MSM/CNN thinks of conservatives:

We all hunt and have pickup trucks with gun racks in the window, with a bumper sticker of the confederate flag.

We are Bible thumping religious zealots.

We all want to bomb an abortion clinic.

We hate all minorities. 

We all live in trailer parks.

We have a three flags in our house the US, the confederate,and the Nazi flag.

I know one thing, if the MSM hates him, I like him more and more..

Bigtimer is right, that little sound track of John F,ing Kerry tells us just what the “educated among  us” thinks of conservatives.

I wana get me a huntn license. Big joke a-hole, ohh, your not President.. the joke was on you..

 

Maybe Jeff Foxworthy should do a show:

If you to this...You could be a liberal..

 

 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day

Don't forget - wife-beating,

Don't forget - wife-beating, beer-drinking, dog-kicking... And we all drool!

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

I second amendment that opinion

I second amendment that opinion BT. 

Maybe Fred thinks you should only hunt to put meat on the table, and that given his hectic schedule he gets his beef at Walmart.

Who knows. Maybe he's packing at this moment with a concealed weapons permit.

Maybe they could have (shock, horror) just... ASKED him! Nah, that would be to much like old-fashioned "reporting."

Check out my exclusive edit of BBC News America's interview with Mrs Clinton: It's news to me!

Wait, you expect reporters

Wait, you expect reporters to actually ask honest questions of Republicans? How dare you put such a burden on these poor, overworked, underappreciated bastions of the First Amendment!

Please pardon me for getting that sarcasm all over you, Jack. :-)

Weird CNN

I don't have a hunting lisence either. Last time I checked the Second Amdendment wasn't about hunting, except in the warped mind of a liberal. I guess only phony over the hill posing liberals buy them for show these days.

Means exactly nothing, except the Corrupt News Newtwork living up to it's namesake.

I have hunted all my life

I have hunted all my life but I haven’t hunted or “got me ah..hunting licence” in two years.

So now..I think we should change the Constution!!

The MSM thinks that we are so simple minded..

 

 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day

Thompson should just say

Thompson should just say he's not a hunter, but he keeps a .44 in his nightstand. That would give them the vapors. LOL

}}---> Hunting license

I will say (hypothetically for fear of idiot PETA nerds) that if my dog were crushed by a car 3 years ago in front of my house) I would have ended his suffering quickly rather than carry him to a Vet.

I wouldn't have considered it "hunting" but I guess if such a thing were made public I could never run for public office.

I haven't even touched a gun

I haven't even touched a gun and I'm a 2nd Amendment enthusiast. Peter Hamby's poor little head would probably explode if he found out people like me existed.

What must God think of

What must God think of liberals?  Surely He is disgusted by how they refuse to use their brain for actual thinking.

This is another facet of their feeling that unless you are one of what you are discussing, you can't have an opinion about it.  Yet at the same time, liberals are constantly opining (and legislating) about things they have no clue about nor any connection to.

If liberals were consistent (try saying that with a straight face), they would interpret the 2nd Amendment in such a manner that they would require militias be formed and armed rather than trying to take guns from law-abiding citizens.  But given the spirit behind the amendment, liberals are possibly the ones the amendment was designed to allow us to protect ourselves from.

How can liberals say the right to bears arms doesn't exist when it is actually written in The Constitution while the right to an abortion does when it isn't actually written there?  But then when you feel a document is 'living', it is meaningless since it can be changed on a whim.  They love that when it benefits them.

Sigh

Liberals as so consistantly inconsistant.

 

Like five year olds always changing the rules of a game in the middle to assure that they will win.

The Second Amendment guarantees the ability to thwart tyrants!

"It is the military usage of guns and the protection they afford that the 2nd Amendment is interested in, not hunting." - ??

Au contraire - the amendment is clear in the context of history, it is to guarantee the individual the right to keep and bear arms in opposition to government tyranny. Socialist later-day revisionism would have you believe it was about state-owned and controlled troops, or 'state militias' - which is pure poppycock.

Madison envisioned private citizens defeating any US Army - or state controled army.
Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist No. 28 made the same point, saying;

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is
then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of
self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government,
and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be
exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of
the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons
intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels,
subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct
government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The
citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without
system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."

What the socialist have tried to do - and continue to try to do, is disarm the citizen - under-arm the citizen - bluntly attempting to make the second amendment nul and void of its original intent.

Sadly - they have been far too successful, and one day this nation will face raw deadly tyranny once again.

 

Au Contraire? That IS why I

Au Contraire?

That IS why I said "and the protection they afford" after all!

Huh?

 "Yet, here is CNN acting as if Thompson should be looked at askance . "

 What the hell does that mean? Askance?

You're cruising for a wedgie pal.

 

Victory in Iraq.

Askance?

I can see it now:  Robert DeNiro in Goodfellas...

"I heard t'ings...you were lookin' at him askance...Yes you were lookin' at him askance a li'l bit..."

Forget 911, I dial 10MM.

Lifer

NRA Life Member here.  Concealed Carry Permit Holder.

No hunting license.

Why would anyone get a hunting license if they don't hunt anymore or have time to hunt?  What a bunch of morons. 

“It isn’t that liberals are ignorant, it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so” – Ronald Reagan

Packing

I grew up hunting, but I no longer do, so I don't need a hunting license.  I do however carry concealed because I am licensed to do so.  I don't do this because of my redneck upbringing.  I do this for family protection.  *See Nebraska mall shooting yesterday*  If one of the many concealed carry qualified members of NewsBusters had been in that mall yesterday, the outcome would have been a bit different.  That particular situation is one of the very few that would cause one of us to draw our weapon. 

Well, Hussein Obama

Well, Hussein Obama supports abortion, but has NEVER had one!!! What a FRAUD!

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

John Edwards supports

John Edwards supports expansion of welfare, yet has he ever been on welfare?

(This could go on all day.)

*****

"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman 

Shot themselves in the foot?

Did CNN shoot themselves in the foot again?  

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

Free, FRIENDLY advice to Fred & co.

First, the hard-to-swallow part the media hasn't been reporting, and which IMO hasn't helped your campaign at all. Don't keep paying to have all other Republican candidates excluded from Florida gunshows. It's a stupid waste of your limited money, and with people like Ron Paul's fans, who are perfectly-willing to waylay attendees on the public sidewalk with literature, it won't work anyway. May as well kiss some major Larry Pratt butt, change/disavow a few old positions, and admit that the gun community is -- as Warner himself shows -- diverse and smart. You can't fool us these days because gun-rights fans own the internet. We know your record's not perfect but we also know you're a damn sight better than the major-RINOs.

Now the bitter pill's over. Time for the fun part, which your wife and various other well-intentioned political advisors will no-doubt try to veto. Ignore them all and pay attention to the sarcastic libertarian Ron Paul supporter instead. ;) Advisors will say "people think machineguns are all illegal!!!" They're right, too, but ask yourself why? Might it be due to mediabias?? Might that particular variety of bias, ignorance, and bigotry be particularly-easy to lampoon, especially if accompanied with a bit of suggested Larry Pratt asskissing? IMO the answer is "yes."

Time to do something radical. Pencil in Thursday, April 10th on your calendar (it's too-late for October, but the shoot's never been anything-like a secret) and go to the Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot on the first, somewhat restricted day because the crowds will be insane (in more ways than "big") Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. You need to arrive in that red pickup truck full of Fred-literature Thursday morning around 10AM. Maybe bring 2 trucks, because this gun show is HUGE and your people will be out by Sunday afternoon if my guess is right.

Your sole mission is to get photographed with the biggest possible machineguns or cannons you can (a WW2-style flamethrower is sometimes available, too). You need to fire-off a long burst while grinning like a banshee at the cars & dirt you're hosing. You won't need to pretend to smile, though, because sometimes happiness truly is a belt-fed weapon, and unlike many campaign photo-ops, this one will actually be FUN. Once you've hosed that belt, you need to dump all the literature on Fred supporters there, who'll love the fact that you showed-up, because doing something like this will take BALLS. You can probably be out of there by noon for a nap.

Will the biased news media go-nuts if you take my advice? Yes. That's your goal. Then you can goad them on all the bias they're guaranteed to spew, while subtly slamming the RINOs. Ideally, you could have Kentucky supporters cook you a deer-feast that Thursday night, and with a forkful of venison in your hand, you can look up and say something like: "The Second Amendment isn't about hunting, but Bambi here sure tastes good."
JMR

Who just got this year's load of Bambi-sausage -- YUMMY!!! :)

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Actually, the statement that

Actually, the statement that "all machineguns are illegal" is technically correct. Under the laughably named Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) of 1986, the manufacture and transfer of all selective-fire and automatic weapons for/to private citizens was outlawed. Guns that were made prior to May 86 are exempt, but they are in a category all their own now.

By the way... it was pinheads like Wayne LaPierre at the NRA who decided to lay down and let this law get passed over the objections of NRA members. The leadership said that the ban would only impact Class III weapons, there were more than enough on the market to meet demand, and that there was no worries of further bans. We, the members, said BS. I guess we know which side was right.

Agreed.

You're hearing from the side of the debate that likes JPFO & GOA more than the NRA, and did even back then. I would someday like to own a full-auto "American 180" that's properly-suppressed, which is proof I like cheap fun, at least ammo-wise (another area we're quietly-losing, and the UN-fans in obese government are winning, BTW)...
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

When I was in the Navy here

When I was in the Navy here in Jacksonville in the early 1980's, I made some side money by converting AR-15s to M-16s for a local gun store. I would swap out the firing group parts and bolt carrier, and install a drop-in sear, test fire, and take the rifle back to the store so they could handle the transfer paperwork.

I had 200 drop-in sears at my house when I got transferred to Bermuda, and since guns are banned there I knew I wouldn't need them. I sold them for the same price I paid for them, $5 each. That was in April 85. A year later those sears were selling for about $200 each. I still feel ill thinking about it. :)

NO HUNTING LICENSE EITHER

I own three guns and I don't hunt and I am in favor of hunting. In order to be pro-2nd ammendment one must have a hunting license is typical liberal false logic. 'If you don't have a hunting license then there is no reason to have a gun'! Sort of like you can't be pro-1st ammendment unless you have your own dopey news network!

CN, grasping at straws

So, by the logic of CNN, should men (like celebrity Ed Harris) who obviously cannot have babies, be pro-abortion?

Hunting licenses

Are not needed to shoot all animals, anyway. Deer & ducks are in the 'get a license' category in Florida. Wascally wabbits aren't. All three are quite edible once you shoot, clean, and cook 'em. Ignorance leads to bigotry, every time, and journalists may not want to admit it, but they're largely-ignorant regarding firearms.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Sarc

In light of this insightful viewpoint given by the MSM, I feel that we should all surrender our guns to Sarah Brady.

Forget 911, I dial 10MM.

The weird part, to me, is the media's extreme-bigotry.

They're perfectly willing to hire a reporter of a specific race to cover that race, and hire a reporter with a particular sexual orientation to cover sexual orientation issues. OTOH the idea of hiring someone even halfway-clueful about firearms (and again, I'd BARELY qualify for that description -- it's NOT like I'm ANY sort of 'expert' here just because I happen to know a few basic factoids!!) never occurs to the media, in all their ironic bigotry. And there's really no other word for their behavior at this point BUT "bigotry," even though they really-hate hearing that particular word from the likes of me...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

I'm giving mine up to

I'm giving mine up to Rebecca Peterson - at least SHE'S endorsed by the UN!!! And look at the wonderful things she's done for Austrailia... ;-)~ 

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

yah, ok, molon labe.

yah, ok, molon labe.

Neither are stray cats and

Neither are stray cats and dogs where I live

 

Ah, tamales on the

Ah, tamales on the hoof!

"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan

what the hell does a hunting license have to do owning guns

i don't have a pilots license but i kept blackhawk helicopters and h-53 helicopters and a myriad of civilian helicopters flying for the pilots that do fly them for over 10 years.

with this thought process i'm assuming that everyone who flys on a commercial jet each day must have a pilots license too.

lets switch and quantify this thought process to a liberal agenda, every woman who is pro choice must have first had at least 3 abortions or else they can't march in parades with signs.

i own about 5 firearms, i have never hunted in my life, never owned a hunting license, so obviously i can't support the 2nd amendment.

lunaticcringeradio

ps this is why i am pro abortion, idiots tend to have them, and idiots wont be forced to raise more idiots that will be this stooopid. let the morons kill themselves off. plus i want more parking and less traffic.

Fred can't win

If Fred gets a hunting license then he's a killer of innocent animals.

If he doesn't hunt then he's a "hypocrite" for affirming the 2nd Amendment.

I honestly don't know if these liberals are engaging in deliberate deception and false logic (good term), or if they're simply retarded.

Second Amendment issues

[Note: I posted the following recently as a reply to a comment by USA4freedom hoping to generate an exchange of views, or just some general opinion on the Second Amendment, its limitations [if any] and related issues.  Other than a couple of brief remarks by MightyMouth and bassndude, there was virtually no response.   I've decided to give it one more shot...if still no interest, I promise to never bring it up again.] 

 

December 4, 2007 - 09:32 ET by Jer

No doubt, USA4, those punks were dissuaded by the sudden realization that they might make your day.  Good.  But they also might just move on to more opportunistic targets...such as elderly women or others less likely to be armed.  [Maybe a "Glocks for Grannies" campaign should be launched.]

Let me make one thing clear:  I believe anyone should be able to own and keep, at the very least, a shotgun on his or her property.  Beyond that, for me anyway, the matter gets complicated.  And many years of thought and analysis haven't advanced or clarified my position one whit.

So what are your views USA4?  Let me ask a few questions:

--Do you support any restrictions on the ownership and use of firearms, or do you consider the Second Amendment to be absolute in its protection of the citizenry from governmental gun control?

--Would you favor universal arming of the public?  In other words, would we have a safer society if every man woman and child not only possessed the legal right to own and carry firearms, but all individuals as a matter of fact carried guns?  Would we be a more stable, more gentile nation?

--Should there be any limitations on where firearms could be carried? To restaurants, bars, churches, concerts, schools, the garden club, birthday parties, on planes, buses, to places of employment?  Or are some locale restrictions legitimate.

--What about types of weapons? The Second Amendment specifies the right to bear arms.  Arms include a heck of a lot more than just my twelve gauge shotgun.  An AK-47 is certainly an "arm".  For that mattter, so is a bazooka, a tank and a Patriot missile.  Why wouldn't those arms be within the purview of constitutional protection?  I once read a statement in one of Wayne LaPierre's books that those weapons weren't consistent with the traditional muskets possessed by colonial era Americans.  Well, Mr. LaPierre, that's an interesting anecdote--and it has nothing to do with the unmodified word "arms" contained in the Second Amendment.  So how about it...why prohibit a fully automatic M-16? 

It seems to me that LaPierre's philosophy--and that of the NRA--employs the theory that the level of public safety within American society exists in direct proportion to the degree to which the citizenry is armed.  That is, the more people with more guns equals more safety.  I just don't know that I can buy the argument.  There will always be criminals.  If the natural and consistent presumption of the criminal is that his target is armed, he will simply use more stealth and greater--and more frequently lethal--force to make sure he maintains the advantage over his victim.

[By the way, I hear of pawn shops getting hit from time to time, and they gernerally are well stocked with various firearms.]

Anyway, you needn't respond to every single question I've crammed into this post, but I would be interested in reading some more of your general thoughts on the topic.

Thanks, Jer

 

Jer, I don't have time for all of 'em

But please see above. Fully-automatic AK-47s (IF they have a registered side-plate) are perfectly-legal under the National Firearms Act (NFA). They're also very-expensive these days. There are so-few of them because of an '86 MG-ban (signed by Reagan!) ironically named the "Firearms Owners Protection Act" which along with the 1934 NFA in effect transmogrified registered right sideplates into an ever-decreasing number of collectable "legal machineguns." Noise suppressors ("silencers") are also highly-taxed & regulated, despite being in effect safety devices to prevent hearing damage. In any other industry, the idea that the control-freaks would be against safety equipment would seem strange, but we're in the bizzarro-world of 1000s of firearms regulations.

Those registered parts are, in effect, precious metals by government fiat. Thats' the best way to look at them. If you get into trouble with this aspect of Federal Law then 10 year sentences, huge fines, and stomped pet cats can all result. But I'm obviously fascinated by the "aluminum or steel can become precious metals just because the government says-so" aspect. Given how fiat money inflation issues have suddenly come to the forefront of this campaign, I'll leave the irony of ever-decreasing precious-firearms-metals by fiat to you to contemplate.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Thanks sarc...interesting

Thanks sarc...interesting information.  When you have the time, will you answer a couple of questions which I have after reading your post:

Can AK-47s be fired other than full auto?  If so, can they be bought by anyone passing background check?  What about Thompson's, BARs, M-16s etc. in semi-automatic form, and how easily can they be converted to full--even if illegal to do so?

Is a "registered sideplate" a sheet of metal attached to the stock with identifying information stamped on it designating the owner a "legal collector"?   Are subsequent transfers permitted?  I guess the whole "precious metals" designation is just a ruse to ensure ownership by "serious" collectors.

I suppose the silencer prohibitions arise out of concerns that in the wrong hands, it could create advantages for the bad guys vis a vis law enforcememt.  On the other hand, I still have minor hearing issues from M-14 qualification in basic, and artillery survey training at Fort Sill.

Jer

ok, Jer, I'll try, but I'm no expert.

There are 2 varieties. Semi-only made for import or made here, and the now-rare fiat precious-metal full auto variety. The fully automatic ones may or may not come with a selector switch, and some FA machineguns can be made to let-off single shots even in full auto mode.

Your conversion question, in addition to being fraught with legal/cat-stomping issues, is harder to answer. It depends on the manufacturer and the time-frame of import just how hard it would be to illegally-convert the thing. Each different gun is different, and at least on some old .22s the gun can convert ITSELF to an illegal status under the NFA solely through normal wear. Yes, innocent owners have gotten in trouble over that issue, and a biased and bigoted media tends NOT to notice. Generally, though, something like a Sten gun can be made in a decent machine-shop.

Sideplates or "Lightning Links" or other parts are registered pieces of metal, generally with a serial number on them but NOT the owner's name as those keep changing. That info is (imperfectly...The registery is chock-full of errors the BATF lies in court about!) on the piece of paper. Transfers with the $200 tax are hard, but legal unless it's a "Dealer Sample," which is yet-another can of legal worms. And yes, like Warner the collectors are very serious about their pieces of history despite much obese-government oppression. Read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross for more.

Regarding noise devices, at some ranges in Europe, it's illegal to shoot WITHOUT one. In Finland, you can get them in a hardware store, and the hard thing to get (not TOO hard, Finland's cool because they tend to remember their history...) is the gun. IANAL, contact one instead of using this information for anything legally-risky, it's an overview off the top of my head only.
JMR

PS Thanks for your service.

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Wow, the regs do get pretty

Wow, the regs do get pretty Byzantine, don't they?

[Appreciate the thanks, but it was six months basic and advanced, then 5 1/2 years in Guard and Reserves.  Those who went to Nam deserve the real thanks.]

Jer

Selective-fire weapons are

Selective-fire/automatic weapons are not perfectly legal. Only those made before May 1986 are legal for transfer.

As far as I am concerned the

As far as I am concerned the Constitution is talking about military weapons. Therefore, there is NO REASON that a regular citizen shouldn't be allowed to have a machine gun, FULLY automatic.

So, you can say that I seen NO gun control as reasonable, except that of quantity. A giant arsenal is something I see a reason to restrict and something that an argument to restrict could reasonably be made. I couldn't give you a number at this time, but hundreds and hundreds of guns in the ownership of one person could be cause for alarm. So, that is about all the restrictions I see as Constitutional.

However, guns and firearms means just that. A bazooka, a torpedo, a bomb even a jet fighter... those are not guns.They are ordnance. The founders meant firearms to be rifles and pistols. They did not mean Cannons and ships of war.

How's that for an answer?

Thanks Warner...Your views

Thanks Warner...Your views are a little more expansive than mine, but I understand your point. 

True, bazookas [and grenade launchers, mortars, etc.] aren't guns, but they are certainly "arms" which would arguably be considered constitutionally protected by the Second Amendment.  The founders may have had only rifles and pistols in mind merely because they didn't envision bazookas, tanks, and other sophisticated weaponry.  [But there were cannon, so the issue is still murky.]

Jer

Jer

True, bazookas [and grenade launchers, mortars, etc.] aren't guns, but they are certainly "arms" which would arguably be considered constitutionally protected by the Second Amendment.

Not arguably if you do due research. The Founders meant firearms and firearms then meant longarms and pistols. They did not use the word "guns" to mean rifles and pistols. "Guns" meant cannons. Cannons aren't covered by the 2nd Amendment.

So, with historical evidence, machine guns are in. Bazookas are out.

Warner...thanks for the

Warner...thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't aware of that distinction.

Jer

No prob. It isn't really

No prob. It isn't really that well known.

What are you using as a

What are you using as a reference here? I've never heard that position made before, and I find it highly unlikely that the Founders would have discussed having the citizenry oppose their government by charging cannons with just musket and ball.

Hi Warner, great

Hi Warner, great article!

Regarding bazookas, I wonder... Their navy was well acquainted with "grenades", a hollow shot filled with gunpowder and fused. It was intended to explode after being fired from the cannon. In some engagements where the fighting was close, such grenades were lit and lobbed by hand.

Because their firearms were black powder muzzle-loaders, the owner of the firearm also had on hand a quantity of shot and gunpowder. They would undoubtably know the properties of these materials, and be able to use them when needed in combinations other than just their rifles... They'd know how to create lots of noise and smoke, besides explosions. (I'd bet that they used powder to shatter rocks and tree stumps, to dislodge cave-ins in mine shafts, etc.)

Would it have been considered unreasonable if in the protection of one's lands, someone used the tools at hand to create a homemade grenade?

So, maybe machine guns AND bazookas?

Your comment "... something

Your comment "... something I see a reason to restrict..." is a prime example of the problems we have with the second ammendment. It shouldn't be open to restrictions based on how many guns you own, what calibers they are, what they look like, or how many people live where you do. The right is to keep and bear arms, not keep and bear arms provided... There are no other rights that we allow to be tampered with like this, and we shouldn't allow them to tamper with this one.

Can you imagine someone saying "I believe in free speech, but not if they're going to talk about "X", or "I believe in a right to vote, unless you're black with a Mexican surname." I don't think so.

Jer:   No Yes,

Jer:  

No

Yes, mandatory.

No

The Constitution sayes "arms" meaning fire arms and or weapons. The way I see it is that means any weapons. Guns, full auto or what ever. The only restrictions that should be out there are for the nukes. I dont think we should keep nukes in the house. Other than that...well, the Constitution is pretty clear. "Congress shall make no law..." They have already done that and the weapons issue was reserved for the State.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

While I don't have the time

While I don't have the time (or inclination) to address all you points, I will talk to several:

No doubt, USA4, those punks were dissuaded by the sudden realization that they might make your day. Good. But they also might just move on to more opportunistic targets...such as elderly women or others less likely to be armed. [Maybe a "Glocks for Grannies" campaign should be launched.]

"Glocks for Grannies" would probably be quit the effective crime deterrent. The first couple of punks trying to beat an old lady out of her SS check getting blown away by Granny would put the skids on many, if not most, punks bent on similar activities.

--Do you support any restrictions on the ownership and use of firearms, or do you consider the Second Amendment to be absolute in its protection of the citizenry from governmental gun control?

No, there is no restriction on law abiding citizens possession of firearms. The 2nd is soley intended as a counter to government control - the taking by the government of powers WE THE PEOPLE do not grant them (exactly wht the Lefties constantly do).

--Would you favor universal arming of the public?  In other words, would we have a safer society if every man woman and child not only possessed the legal right to own and carry firearms, but all individuals as a matter of fact carried guns?  Would we be a more stable, more gentile nation?

It is a choice we as citizens, protected by the Constitution, make for ourselves. Who was it that coined the truism "an armed society is a polite society"? And it is documented, proven, and factual that areas without restrictive gun laws are safer and with far less violent crime than the reverse. As for being "gentile", save that for the French. We are rude and crude Americans. And we are also the most powerful and desired nation on the planet.

It seems to me that LaPierre's philosophy--and that of the NRA--employs the theory that the level of public safety within American society exists in direct proportion to the degree to which the citizenry is armed.  That is, the more people with more guns equals more safety.  I just don't know that I can buy the argument.  There will always be criminals.  If the natural and consistent presumption of the criminal is that his target is armed, he will simply use more stealth and greater--and more frequently lethal--force to make sure he maintains the advantage over his victim.

I briefly spoke to this above, and as I said, it is documented and provable that more LEGALLY owned firearms equates to a safer society. As for the criminals adapting to such widespread gun ownership, I say my own au contraire. Criminals are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Some will adapt, most will not.

The bottom line is that the 2nd guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, and it shall not be infringed. Talking about tanks and missiles being included in the Amendment is frivolous and inane. The 2nd was intended exclusively as a counter to government takeover of our nation. Period. It has nothing to do with crime or hunting. It has nothing to do with militias. It, like all the other Amendments referring to "the people" is an individual right. Just as anyone can choose to exercise their right to free speech or religion, any law abiding citizen can choose to be armed, or not.

 

 

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

Nice commentary, Beowulf,

Nice commentary, Beowulf, and you are correct in that the strictures of the Second Amendment are directed against governmental action, as are the other provisions of the Bill of Rights.  For example, a private organization might impose limitations on your freedom of speech that the government would be prohibited from doing.

Even so, I think your assertion that there is an unfettered right of firearm possession by law abiding citizens may be a stretch.  That would seem to entitle one to walk into a federal courtroom with a pistol in his coat pocket.  Maybe I'm reading too much into your statement though.

And, yes, my missile comment was frivilous, but at the time I didn't think it necessarily illogical.  I was just using an absurdly extreme example to illustrate a point.  After reading Warner's historical clarification, I'll concede that it may have been both frivilous and constitutionally illogical.

Jer

Jer, thank you for the

Jer, thank you for the civilized discussion on what has become, for many, akin to partisan politics. As for unfettered firearm possession, that is exactly what I'm saying. Sure, there are common-sense restrictions, such as age or mental stability, but law abiding citizens should be allowed, per Constitutional amendment, to carry a firearm wherever they go. But I will grant you that Courtrooms are an issue that needs much serious thought. Finally, while I sort of understand your exaggeration to make a point, this is the same game the anti's play. A college student with a 9mm pistol suddenly becomes a maniacal killer armed with a high capacity assault weapon. Clinton's "assault weapon" ban delineated characteristics that had exactly zero to do with the functioning of the weapon. A civilian AK-47 and a semi-auto Remington hunting rifle work essentially the same way. The only difference of substance is how they look. Bayonet lugs and magazine capacity were also determining factors whether a rifle was an assault weapon or not. None of which addressed a single aspect of the term "assault". Now pistols are being named assault weapons. And many anti's use the same argument as you did as to "where does the 2nd stop?" Can private citizens own tanks and missiles? This sensationalizing of the argument only divides the issue further.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

no response?

You say that other than the 2 posters you mentioned, you got "virtually no response", and so you repeated your post from the other thread. Now you've gotten more detailed responses.

But I posted a valuable link, which you have apparantly not read.

So I will repeat the essence of what I offered:  http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.pdf 

This fascinating document contains the DoJ's research on the 2nd Amendment.

Although you just wrote "Even so, I think your assertion that there is an unfettered right of firearm possession by law abiding citizens may be a stretch.", it is the DoJ 's own position that the 2nd Amendment is indeed an individual right

Please read it.

And please don't dismiss feedback such as this as "virtually no response", or I will not be able to take you seriously in the future.

I think this document may be one of the most important pieces that has been written on the subject, both because of its content and because of its origination. In essence, the courts are supposed to use it as their guide in how to interpret the 2nd Amendment.

Rather than rely on informal interpretations or personal opinions, I think that anyone with serious interest in the 2nd Amendment should take the time to read through it carefully.

Is this response enough for you?

 

John M...I just logged back

John M...I just logged back in and noticed your post above which also references your earlier response on the other thread.

I owe you an apology.  I hope you will accept it.

Somehow I had overlooked your previous post, and consequently did not see your link to what appears to be a very informative article.

I will read it ASAP.

Thank you for that earlier response as well as your comments today.

Again, I'm very sorry for my oversight.

Jer

no problem, Jer - I know I

no problem, Jer - I know I can't keep up with all the postings either.

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts about the DoJ document. Let me know when you're posting more on this topic, or send me a private message for further discussion.

JohnM:  I printed a copy

JohnM:  I printed a copy yesterday and have read about half of it.  It's lengthy, but very instructive.  Thank you.

Jer

the second should not have

the second should not have any limitations for law abiding US citizens.  I should be able to buy caseloads of ammo without the FBI comming to my house and shooting up my kids.  I should be able to do whatever is necessary to protect life, liberty, and property from a tyranical government. 

Where do I get a license

Where do I get a license to hunt CNN staff members?

"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master and deserves one."

Alexander Hamilton

 Since their operation is

 Since their operation is in Georgia it requires a GA license. You have to go to Atlanta and see Neil Boortz for those. I don't think he charges but a couples bucks for the printing.

 "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.

}}---> LCT688

You might want to modify your comment as a Wisconsin teacher discovered.

It fits into the media's

It fits into the media's faulty "understanding" of the 2nd Amendment, which in the liberal's mind is to protect the right to hunt.

That's the convenient false canard that liberal pols use when they say they are for the 2nd Amendment, they usually qualify it by talking about not taking away rights from hunters.

Of course, I think it's not smart, if you're a liberal pol, to defend hunting. You need all those vegan voters that you can get.

 

}}---> Vegans

I particularly pity the poor pigs put to slave labor rooting truffles for Parisian palates.

Jeesh... CNN so smart

I'm not a smoker. I guess using CNN's logic, I have no right to oppose all the new anti-smoking laws that take a smoker's rights away, to use a perfectly legal product. And in some cases, take those rights away, even in their own homes and cars. I better start smoking if I want to have any say there.

And I've always supported gun rights. I guess I don't have that right anymore. At least not until I get a gun. I better do that too. Thanks CNN for clearing it all up for me!

I've never even shot a gun

I've never even shot a gun (I'm 20) and am still a strong advocate for gun rights!

The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy

Well then, I recommend the

Well then, I recommend the Remington 870 Express.

Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns

The Ruger 1022 .22 cal

The Ruger 1022 .22 cal semi-auto rifle is a nice firearm for plinking, recreational shooting, marksmanship practice and small varmint hunting. It holds a 10 round magazine, and is very comfortable to use. It, as is any .22, is also useful for home protection. If you have to shoot an intruder, the bullets tend to stay inside the recipient, ricocheting around doing more damage to them than more powerful weapons. If you miss, the bullets will more than likely lodge in the wall of your house instead of going through your wall and then through your neighbor's wall.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan

The problem with a .22 cal

The problem with a .22 cal weapon, in your home is, if you dont hit a vital spot, your going to have to shoot them lots of times to put them down. I have a Ruger .45ACP and a Haws .44 Mag in my bedroom, close at hand and one in the living room, close to hand. The .44 is loaded with .44spc HP loads. No problem with them exiting an intruder. The .45 is loaded with HP rounds. They will not exit an intruder. Either one will put a 250 pound man down with one round. If it dosent kill him. Which BTW, will by my intent if I shoot someone. I dont do warning shots, and I do not aim for nonvital areas. Center mass. That way if I am off a little one way or another, it is still a good shot.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Bass, those are very good

Bass, those are very good weapons for someone familiar with firearms. They are, however, a bit much for a lot of people. Wiwf stated that he (?) had never shot a gun before. For him a .22 with a high capacity magazine, whether the 1022's ten round capacity, or one of the fifteen or seventeen round tubular magazines would be sufficient. And, I can guarantee you that an intruder who suddenly had a doodoo load of .22 rounds coming his way, if he was not hit, would be getting the h*ll out of Dodge.

Personally, I prefer a 12 ga. shotgun, but due to deteriorating discs in my spine and problems in my shoulder, I can no longer use such a weapon without risking damage to myself. A .38 special revolver loaded with semi-jacketed +P hollow points is now my main firearm. It was even sufficient for the two pit-bulls that were attempting to molest my rabbits. The .38 enema they recieved convinced them of the error of their ways.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan

My personal preference is a

My personal preference is a 12-guage pump with #2 or #4 shot. Plenty of takedown power with very little wall/door penetration. And as most home defense situations occur within 10 ft, in the wee hours of the morning (when you're half asleep), and in the dark, point and shoot is vastly preferable to having to aim for vital areas. Besides, the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round is in itself a serious deterrent (kinda hard to mistake the sound). Just stay away from the 00 buckshot. It has a mistique, but very little to recommend it for home defense (unless you really don't like your neighbors)...  

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

Jer: 2nd Amendment Rights

I honestly haven’t given it too much thought, but imagine a
nation where any adult citizen was legally allowed to acquire, possess and responsibly
use a lethal weapon. And that there were no limits to the individual’s license
to use more and more powerful weapons. Would violence increase?

How many people are killed or maimed by automobiles, semi-tractor-trailer rigs, trains, etc. in America
every year?

I’m not saying cars equal guns in terms of personal defense
or strength to withstand tyranny, but the MSM agenda is clear: cars don’t kill
people…SUV’s do. I mean, er, men waving scimitars don’t kill people …
semiautomatic weapons do. Wait, what I mean to say is…

I don’t have a hunting license, nor a weapons permit, nor
own a gun, but I support your right to have one. I have had a driver’s license
for 30 years, and drive a few tons of steel, plastic and rubber at highway
speeds, but I trust others to (generally) stay on their own side of the road,
to stop at intersections, and to avoid running over my children.

I trust our local police officers to carry weapons (in any
setting), why not a similarly trained and certified, responsible private
citizen Wouldn’t it have saved lives if several of these folks were present in
every Columbine, Blacksburg, or Omaha
setting? I’d bet that, for every one incident of a lunatic ‘going postal’, we’d
prevent ten.

Oh, and back on topic: I like Fred Thompson. He had a red
pickup truck didn’t he?

...either we get our heads together about this war, or our enemies will surely separate them for us...

Sure it would had

Wouldn’t it have saved lives if several of these folks were present in
every Columbine, Blacksburg, or Omaha
setting?

 

If the psychos that committed those murders knew that there were armed folks prepared to defend themselves, these most likely would not had happened. Advertising strong gun control (schools,cities,states) pretty much assures you will have very little gun control. Go ahead and put a sign on your house that says

"I support gun control" but make sure your insurance is up to date.

 

 

"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain

Jeff...You hit on some of

Jeff...You hit on some of the key points.  I heard a good bit of commentary after Virginia Tech lamenting the fact that if just some of the students had been armed, Cho could have been taken out before he went on his murderous rampage.

Also, there is a lady whose name I don't recall but who has become an outspoken advocate of this view.  [I believe she was present at the Luby's massacre in Texas several years ago.]  I'm still unconvinced of the wisdom of any such policy, but I try to keep an open mind, and I don't let liberals or conservatives, Democrats or Republicans make up my mind for me.

I just don't know that I would feel more secure thinking that a significant number of my fellow classmates, churchgoers, restaurant patrons, football fans, etc. may be packing "heat".  There's always the possibility that today's rational and responsible gun carrier may tomorrow have an emotional breakdown...or have a couple of drinks, get in an argument, and react with gun rage instead of his fists.

But, the ability to possess some form of firearm in your home is never going to be taken away.  There may be attempts at regulation, some successful, some not, but that basic right is too deeply rooted constitutionally and historically to be completely abrogated. 

Jer

 

 

Jer

Just a couple of replies to your post..... 

 "I heard a good bit of commentary after Virginia Tech lamenting the fact that if just some of the students had been armed, Cho could have been taken out before he went on his murderous rampage."

School Campuses (Campi?) are gun free zones.  Persons licensed to carry would not be carrying, because the vast majority of us follow the conceal carry laws to the letter.  Only psychopaths are allowed to have guns in gun free zones.

"I just don't know that I would feel more secure thinking that a significant number of my fellow classmates, churchgoers, restaurant patrons, football fans, etc. may be packing "heat".  There's always the possibility that today's rational and responsible gun carrier may tomorrow have an emotional breakdown...or have a couple of drinks, get in an argument, and react with gun rage instead of his fists."

Those of us who concealed carry are around you all the time.  We don't swagger, we don't boast, and we generally don't talk about the fact that we are carrying or do carry a weapon.  The training that we receive mandates that.   If we are going to be drinking, we don't carry.  We will not use our weapon to solve an argument.  Our weapon is to be drawn only in cases where you determine that your life or the life of your family is being directly threatened as in the Van Maur store in Nebraska.  How many crimes have you seen in the media that involve guns, and the crime was committed by or on a person with a concealed carry permit?  If a murder was committed by a concealed carry qualified person, the media would explode and there would be another assault on our 2nd amendment.   That is why those of us who choose to carry are so private about it.

It has already happened. I

It has already happened. I forget the details, but an armed assailant at a law school was disarmed and held by "gun-toting" students, who wouldn't have had a chance if they weren't armed. It, like better than 99% of the legal, defensive uses of firearms, never made the news. It, like GWOT, will never receive any positive publicity, as it goes against the innate bias of the media and their agenda.

As has already been stated, CCW holders don't break the law. Of tens of thousands of permit holders, only an extremely small handful misuse their right to carry. As was also brought up, you are constantly around people "packing heat", and never even know it. But if you did (and now you do) you should feel safer. Why is it so hard to understand that CCW holders are LAW ABIDING citizens, who would immediately draw and drop any punk or maniac shooting up the local mall or school.  They aren't the ones who go on rampages. But they are usually the first ones on the scene who can do something about it.

Look at the recent Omaha mall shooting (with a stolen  weapon). It took the cops 6 minutes to begin arriving. How many people could have been saved if one CCW holder was there and dropped this psycho after his first shots? The same for Virginia Tech. How long until law enforcement showed up? And this is nothing against cops. I have said before that law enforcement is inherently reactive. Instead of hiding under anything convenient, the perp could have been stopped immediately after his first actions. CCW holders don't only protect themselves. They are protection for anyone around them in a situation like this. Don't you wonder why these maniacs choose malls and schools to shoot up? They have a reasonable expectation that they will NOT encounter anyone armed. They may be crazy, but they're not stupid...

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

I have a cary permit (we do

I have a cary permit (we do not have CC, only cary permits in my state) and I would not say with even 30% certainty that I would protect anyone in a mall shooting other than my family and myself.  Feel safer because I will defend my family, not because I will defend others.  It is not going to happen.  Personal safety is the individual's responsibility.  I did not get my permit to protect others.

Amber....

That is totally understandable you being a female and all. -) You may surprise yourself, but for sure if more targets where "packin" there would be less targets. I tend to think if your're packin you can think a little more clearly about what is going on and might possibly "save the day" so to speak. Being armed doesn't just give bad people a little more sense of power, good people can feel that to. But being unarmed while some nut is shooting up the place...well.. can make one feel pretty helpless.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Packing means I am always

Packing means I am always aware of the extis and if none is available....well then, that's what gun control is for.

I hear ya hun..

But us guys just have day dreams about takin the bad guy out and saving the day. Especially guys who use a cartoon superhero has his screen name and avatar! :-)

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

I have those dreams too! 

I have those dreams too!  How about this one....Guy walks into the mall durring photos with Santa ready to terrorize the place....until, Santa, his elves, and all the mom's in line turn around with their 1911's pointed at his head and then he pees his pants and starts to cry...

That's one for the news at 11:00 LOL!

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Pardon me MM...

but I have to say this. Amber, your my kinda Gal.

"Too bad Ignorance isn't painful..."

Beowulf,  you said: "Of

Beowulf,  you said: "Of tens of thousands of permit holders, only an extremely small handful misuse their right to carry."

I have not heard of a CCW holder that was arrested for abusing this priledge. I am sure the MSM & the left or the Brady Bunch would never let this one die if it happened. I am not saying it has not happened but I have yet to hear of a permit holder slaughtering people at a mall or holding up a bank, just asking because I have not even heard of it myself.

"Too bad Ignorance isn't painful..."

I am sorry to disillusion

I am sorry to disillusion you, JAB, but occasionally CCW permit holders do violate firearms laws. In Florida, I think the rate is less than .01 percent of CCW permit holders. Those who hold concealed carry permits, while as a general rule are more law abiding than the general population, they are still human and subject to human faults. There have been a very few stories throughout the country where permit holders get busted for firearms violations, but they are few and far between.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan

But, the ability to possess

But, the ability to possess some form of firearm in your home is never going to be taken away. There may be attempts at regulation, some successful, some not, but that basic right is too deeply rooted constitutionally and historically to be completely abrogated.

Tell that to the folks in DC (and many other cities). They've been stripped of just that right for decades. Now, even after the court ruling that such a ban is unconstitutional, they (the lib pols) have succeded in delaying redaction of the law in order to appeal to SCOTUS. I sincerely hope this fatally bites all the anti's in the ass, as a positive SCOTUS decision (for 2nd supporters) will apply across the entire nation and will set the anti's back about 80 years. So the arrogant DC pols could very well be setting up the whole anti movement for their final failure...

I've always said Libs were self destructive, to which I could care less. The problem comes in when their meltdown takes us down with them, hence - keep them out of power, specifically the Clinton, Pelosi, Schumer, Kennedy, Boxer, Feinstein, and all their ilk.

The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers

While I share your hopes about the case, I have some fears...

After all, we had a "win" if the Supremes had simply let the good-for-our-side lower court ruling stand. There's potential reward by going further to the higher court, and I'm certain the lawyers are quite-good on our side. But there's a risk the Supremes could rule in a way that would be nasty, too. I'll stay worried about that 'till it's over.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Sarc, if the supremes had

Sarc, if the supremes had only let the lower court ruling stand, that would have applied only to the jurisdiction of the D.C. circuit. That would have allowed Chicago and Seattle and San Fransisco to continue their violations of the 2nd amendment within those circuit court jurisdictions. This way, if the SCOTUS rules in favor of the 2nd amendment, it will be law for everyone, not just for the D.C. circuit. Yes, it is a risk. And, as one patriot once said, if they made the ruling, let them enforce it. A mass civil disobedience to an unfavorable ruling will have unequivocably demonstrated the meaning and necessity of the 2nd amendment.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan

   I'm going to take a

   I'm going to take a wild guess and speculate that Mr. Hamby supports abortion rights but he personally has never had one.

}}--->I'm gonna be rich

Don't you think I could make a mint selling little brooches shaped as coathangers to the pro abortion crowd?

Heck of a fashion statement too.

Jer, Sorry I did not get

Jer,

Sorry I did not get back to you, most of the time I don’t recheck postings after a while.

I can have intelligent conversation with out all the yelling from all angles. If you are just not trying to score points, I will explain my views.

I have also put a lot of thought into the right to bear arms.

I was raised by my Grand parents. My Grand Father was a master sergeant. I have been shooting guns from the age of 6. He taught me how to shoot as though I was a recruit. I can hear it today, your rifle is a tool,make sure you always know where the muzzle is pointed. Check and recheck you weapon to make sure it is unloaded before handing it to the next man. Never aim the weapon at something unless you intend to kill it...Etc etc.  I think that he had a great idea when it came to kids and guns. He would tell me if you want to look at the guns,tell him and he would take them out, check them to make sure they were not loaded, hand them to me, make sure that I checked them for my self to see if they are loaded. Then I could look at them. I was never curious about them because I could see them when I wanted for the most part. My job was to clean the guns after we went shooting with his over sight. I would sit on the floorof the living room cleaning various weapons he brought back from the war. To this day the smell of cleaning solvent brings back those memories. I used this same idea on my kids, and it worked well. They are grown 28 and 24 and sometimes when they come to visit we all go shooting, skeet or target. My wife was raised in North Jersey by a very liberal family, she could not understand as well as her family. They looked at me as though I was a so called “gun nut”.But after years of conversations while I have not convinced them that they all should get guns but they understand the reasons why it’s important. 

My wife was raped at age of 16, she is in the NRA as well as has a CCW now. I do as well.  

Our founding fathers were obsessed with the worry that government would be too over bearing and with out the tools to over throw it would be a oxen yoke around our necks for ever. I look at guns as my Grandfather taught me, as a tool. Nothing more nothing less. It is the tool to keep enemies off of our land. I think that it also helps us, to have the world think that the US is gun crazy. Would you like to invade a country where almost 50% of the households own a gun.

“You cannot invade America. There is a rifle behind everyblade of grass.”

-      Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

-       

One of the first things that dictators do is disarm the citizenry.

 

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order. — Adolf Hitler, April 11,1942.

 

Most of the questions are well thought out, restrictions..It’s a lot like the first amendment you need it but, then you can’t yell fire in a theater. Keep in mind, when people tell you, you have to be 16 to drive a car, that driving a car is a privilege not a right. Even with that in mind, I think that most of the gun owners could live with a few restrictions. The big problem is if say, gun owners, or the NRA goes along with it. That becomes the starting point for the next round of debates with the anti gun people. So with I with the NRA have to hold the line because if we move the line, the line is the new starting point.

There are laws in effect from the 1930’s that you can’t own a fully automatic gun. So when these people talk about a assault weapon theyare wrong. A assault weapon “can” fire on full automatic. In order to own a gun that is full auto you have to get special licenses and pay fees. (read Sarcasmo post as he is much more informed then me on this)

 

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred: Homicide rate     Florida -36% 

US-0.4%

Firearm homicide rate:Florida- 37%

                                        US- +15%

Handgun homicide rate Florida  -41%

                                     US    +24%    

Once a freedom is lost, it is NEVER regained.          

Remember it's a RIGHT not a privilege. 

 

 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day

Thanks USA4...if all gun

Thanks USA4...if all gun owners/carriers were as sensible and responsible as you (and OldSailor), I not only wouln't worry about universal gun ownership but would become a very vocal supporter.  It's just that I fear that a great number might technically qualify, but be emotionally unfit, resulting in potential societal risks.  But, again, I haven't strapped on any ideological straight jacket concerning the issue.  I'm looking for sensible solutions.

I'm not sure I'm reading your homicide statistics correctly.  I was under the impression that there was a steady reduction in national rates throughout the 90's.

Appreciate your views, Jer

The problem with that

The problem with that theory is how many people exercise their first amendment that are un..trained.lol or.. emotionally unfit..

Its still called Bill of Rights.  

 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day

"if all gun owners/carriers

"if all gun owners/carriers were as sensible and responsible as you (and OldSailor), I not only wouln't worry about universal gun ownership but would become a very vocal supporter"

No way that ALL are going to be as sensible as you wish, but MOST are. In order to satisfy your concerns, how many would you like to meet? Just go to a range or club and find out firsthand.

I used to manufacture and sell a synthetic lubricant for high performance firearms - from personal to military and small caliber to cannon. I have the technical background to work with everyone from shooters to armorers, and helped debug hardware problems in the M61A1 and MK19. I have met HUNDREDS of gun owners (private, military, clubs, shops, ranges, and business), and never have I met anyone who was careless or irresponsible. 

While there will always be an exception, I have found that people who own guns tend to be very observant, quiet, respectful and considerate.

In fact, I observed an 8-yr old boy challenge a 60-yr old man at a range that he had set his rifle down unsafely. The exchange went something like this:

"Excuse me, sir, but I saw you put that rifle down without opening the chamber. If it's not unloaded, it could fall and maybe shoot."

"You're right, young man. I didn't check. Here, let's open it to see. There, all set. Thanks for being alert."

No where else have I ever observed children feeling comfortable calling an elder on a mistake, and no where else have I observed adults being so humble and gracious when called. Everyone understands that safety is primary, and anyone can speak up for it, and everyone respects those who do.

Maybe this is the basis for that "polite society" that's been mentioned...

So, please, by all means, go out and talk to gun owners, and see for yourself that these are "the salt of the earth" who would quietly go out of their way to help you, and disappear before you could say "thank you".

These are good people, people to be proud of, people to feel honored to be among. It's humbling to know that there are so many who care so deeply.

I encourage you to go out and look them in the eye. I'd bet that you "wouldn't worry" anymore.

Great post JohnM, and a

Great post JohnM, and a very encouraging anecdote. Ten years ago I had a sticker on the back of my car that was like the no-smoking symbol (a red circle with a slash through a sillhouetted cigarette) only substituting a handgun for a butt. My take on the issue has developed quite a bit since then, especially since my brothers-in-law started taking me shooting. I'm liberal on most topics, but this is no longer one of them. Thanks again for a thoughtful post.

"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors."
-Emily Bronte

Thanks, I'm happy to

Thanks, I'm happy to contribute when I can. 

I know a few others who, like you, consider themselves liberals and who also are pro-gun. 

Your story is an example to others who think that "liberal" somehow MUST equate to "anti-gun" - there is room to think about it carefully and come up with a different point of view. I applaud your standing up against the blind tide of sentiment.

Congratulations, and welcome to the "good guys"!  <G>

Pre-1986 Yours For The Money

"There are laws in effect from the 1930’s that you can’t own a fully automatic gun. So when these people talk about a assault weapon theyare wrong. A assault weapon “can” fire on full automatic. In order to own a gun that is full auto you have to get special licenses and pay fees."

I enjoyed your post but wanted to inform people of the actual laws, some of which you are correct.  I know several people who legally own fully automatic firearms as private civillians not connected with any governmental, military or civilian police group.  Just plain regular folks with an interest, enough money, understanding spouses and very large/heavy safes.

From http://www.gunlawnews.org/NFA-34.html:

Update from the BATFE: NFATCA/ATF National Firearms Act Handbook  

Overview

The National Firearm Act of 1934 was enacted as a reaction to the behaviors of gangsters of the era. It was passed as tax legislation to discourage ownership without an outright prohibition. Keep in mind that the tax of $200 was quite a sum of money in 1934. Since gangsters were unlikely to register their NFA weapons, the government had another legal weapon to use against them. Because NFA ’34 was a tax law, enforcement fell to the Department of the Treasury. Similarity with alcohol tax law moved the enforcement to the Alcohol Tax Unit within the DOT.

The law controls the ownership of a defined set of devices (machine guns, silencers, etc.) by requiring federal registration and a tax stamp for each device. The tax stamp is acquired by the registration process and requires paperwork, signature of local law enforcement, etc. along with a $200 tax The tax on 'any other weapons was changed to $5 later. The tax is payable at manufacture and each time the NFA device changes ownership.

NFA34 also required serial numbers on firearms and made it unlawful to alter them and registered all manufacturers, importers and dealers.

GCA '68 added destructive devices to the list of taxable devices. A DD is any weapon with a rifled barrel larger than .50 caliber. It also includes bombs, explosives of certain types and any ammunition that contains more than 1/4 oz of explosive, grenades, etc. See TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 Subchapter B Part 1 § 5845 (f) for the definition of destructive devices.  

In 1986, the Firearm Owners Protection Act made illegal the manufacture of new machine guns for the civilian market. Although existing machine guns can continue to be transferred, the supply is now limited and prices have gone predictably skyward.

More details about the various laws in an easy to digest format can be found on the website in the lefthand column under "History".  For those seeking the 'full monty' concerning the laws, rules, regulations, etc. please see the appropriate governmental websites.

Killing them with kindness isn't working.  Time to get scrappy with the Donkeys.

Good stuff, strat..thanks

Good stuff, strat..thanks for your insight and the links.

Jer

You're welcome Jer.Who

You're welcome Jer.

Who knew that 27 words would cause so much discussion!

To top it off, the Second Amendment has turned into a "whatever is is" debate.  For some, the interpretation debate turns on which words are capitalized and the placement of teeny-tiny comas.

From the not always reliable but convenient Wikipedia:

The Second Amendment, as passed by the House and Senate, reads:

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

The original and copies distributed to the states, and then ratified by them, had different capitalization and punctuation:

 

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

Both versions are commonly used in official government publications. The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and hangs in the National Archives.

Killing them with kindness isn't working.  Time to get scrappy with the Donkeys.

I know, strat, this is one

I know, strat, this is one instance where I wish our esteemed Founding Fathers had applied their collective genius a bit more diligently, and whether by adding a few more words to the 27, or by subtracting several therefrom, they, for God's sakes, had told us exactly what they meant.

Jer

...so yer sayin' that they

...so yer sayin' that they made the mistake to think that we'd be smart enough to figure it out in light of all they said and did in the days surrounding the writing of the Amendment?

Yep

Yep

That's pretty sad, then.

That's pretty sad, then.

But, the good news is that the Founders imagined that people would be as smart as they are.

But the bad news is, they apparently aren't.

Ben Franklin's fear was right. We HAD a Republic and we couldn't keep it.

WTH:  I don't think the

WTH:  I don't think the Federalist Papers had extensive discourse on this.  There is a good bit of surrounding and background information, but it's kind of a crazy quilt.  It's hard to piece together cohesive arguments...for me anyway.

Jer

It wouldn't be in the

It wouldn't be in the Federalist Papers, anyway. The amendments were instituted after the Constitution was ratified and a few years after the Fed. Papers were written.

The arguments for the 2nd Amendment must be viewed against the background over the similar provisions in many of the state Constitutions of the time, the philosophy of John Locke and Sir Blackstone on what makes a citizen a free man, as well as what the various founders wrote about the issue of arms, the militia and liberty. You can also read Justice Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States to find his feelings on what the 2nd Amendment meant.

Story said:

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of republics, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers . . ."

Anyway, you have to look at quite a few sources on that particular Amendment to "get it."

But, one more thing. I ask this question: Several of the other Amendments SPECIFICALLY mean to be allocated as individual rights and are accepted even today as such. That being true, why should we believe that only this ONE time did the Founders mean "the people" to be a collective right and not an individual one?

I was referring more to

I was referring more to philosophical underpinnings rather than actual debate over the wording of the amendments.

But very quickly because I have to leave for awhile...much of the debate was over the role of militias and an armed militia and whether the bearing of arms was considered to be an "individual" right.  But much of that debate rested on the presumption and the desire that there would be no standing armies in peacetime.  Times and circumstances have changed dramatically.  

Will be back later, Warner.

Jer

Jer, you might wish to read


This essay
, from 1993. I think much of the debate was on individual rights and the rights of the states. Note the fact that the Second is among the individual-rights amendments, rather than the too-often-ignored "magnificent generalities." The Founders weren't haphazzard about where they placed amendments, or how they ordered words.

And back then, 'well regulated' really did mean "able to march/fight together," even though the Founders' own fighting tended to be guerilla-style, and all the marching tended to be done by their Redcoat targets. Remember, armies always train for the previous war, and previous military training put emphasis on marching as a tactic. Even Harvard's Lawrence Tribe -- hardly a conservative -- has conceded this particular point, but because of the Miller case, it's still around.

The Founders would literally be spinning in their graves if they knew the extent and brutality of BATF busts on peaceful gun owners, which the "mainstream" media tends to keep-quiet. But when I talk about government thugs stomping felines (or shooting lots of dogs, too, for that matter) I'm talking about actual factual stuff.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Warner, how sad would you

Warner, how sad would you really be if that bothersome phrase mentioning a "well regulated militia" were to just disappear, or had never been there to cause any mischief in the first place?  Wouldn't a constitutional lawyer arguing your position in a gun rights case before the Supreme Court have just a little more bounce in his step as he approached the bench?

Those nine justices are the only ones, at some arbitrary point in time, who are required to figure anything out.  And however they do figure it--whether brilliantly or stupidly--is what the thing means.

Jer

Captain Kirk (I mean Jer)

That would be logical Captain.

The Swillituppians have much to lose if this case falls into the hands of of the Supreme Conservataurons.

Logic?  Vastly

Logic?  Vastly overrated.  We'll see what "logic" does for Scalia after he's discovered with Lae-Mi from the Seductrellia Galaxy beamed up his robe.

Captain Quirk

No because...

... I think we should still HAVE militias! In fact, I argue we are violating the Constitution by not having them.

Warner...

I would love to see militias formed again. If for no other reason that to drive liberals insane! 

Put me on your mailing list if you ever get one going. I will show up for the first meeting with lot's of weaponry.

Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson

Put my name on the list

Put my name on the list too. This way I can make amends for not enlisting after high school.

Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns

A militia was already-formed, instantly and in modern times.

And right at the very start of things. See Flight 93.

Just because the media does not want to be honest and call an OBVIOUS militia "a militia" does not change the facts. Todd "Let's Roll" Beamer(sp?) and the rest of them were that American unorganized militia, whether Peter Jennings likes it or not. They performed very effectively, if a bit ironically, by protecting the very politicians of Washington, DC who don't respect the Second Amendment enough to allow the airlines to let those pilots carry a gun.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

The Heart Still Beats

Warner:

In a way we still do have militias representative of the times of our founding fathers via the Civilian Marksmanship Program created by a Congress long ago and far smarter than the current one. 

Killing them with kindness isn't working.  Time to get scrappy with the Donkeys.

This is funny! If this is

This is funny!

If this is the best the media can throw at Fred, this gives me a clue as to why the media dislikes him so much.

Did any of these pea-brains ever stop to consider that Fred has been just a wee bit busy for the past few years with raising his kids, acting on a popular series, and running for POTUS. 

I own guns, but I have not hunted in quite sometime. I target shoot often with my granddaughter and would encourage others to do the same, but I don't have a hunting license either, so what.

Silly, silly media! 

Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson

Hat Tip to NB...

Freds official website has picked up the story here at NB.

Congrats are in order. 

Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson

The court decision of 1934

The court decision of 1934 that created the NFA is ambiguous at best.

In one part it states that there is no evidence that a sawed off shotgun is a military arm despite the fact that in WWI they were used in the trenches.  They were even fitted with bayonet lugs during WWII.

In another part of the decision it was stated that the militia is all able
bodied persons and when reporting for duty to bring their own arms of
a type in use by the military of the day.

I am in favor of universal ownership.  As far as a CCW permit, this is asking permission and thereby turning a right into a privilege.

Jack Van Nostrand

 

Defense counsel

Wasn't even there, from what I've heard, to make any arguments in Miller.

To me, the really weird part is that lefty-feminists universally can't think for themselves. They willfully don't understand that whether or not they believe God created men & women, it's indisputable that Sam Colt made us equal, even if it's also indisputably politically-incorrect to say-so and call something like the classic Ithaca Auto & Burglar (now an NFA-weapon -- thanks obese government!!) an ideal tool against rape.
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

I find it funny that CNN

I find it funny that CNN should attack Fred, when Fred has had the only correct answers to gun control issues in the debates. Rudi has consistently said that he feels that the banning of guns in NYC is a good thing, but he believes in second ammendment rights for people who don't live in NYC. Fred said that the ammednment applies to everyone, not just to folks living outside of DC or NYC, which is the correct answer.

What I take issue with is the second ammendment is the only ammendment that some people feel free to put conditions on. When you talk about freedom of the press, and you mention that this was designed to ensure people could express concerns about their government, and that it was never meant to cover porn, we hear that the right is absolute. When you talk about how the Founders were concerned with the people being able to talk internally, and how the internet allows people to dissent in foreign countries and that the Founders could have never imagined such a thing, we hear that it doesn't matter. But when the same arguments are applied to the second ammendment, everything is open to interpretation... we hear how the Founders could not have conceived of people owning M-16A2s or M4-A1 carbines, and so these must be banned.

I think the second ammendment should be treated just like all the other ammendments. If someone has an issue with their neighbor having a machine gun, that's too bad. I don't like the idea of an American to use the internet to criticize our country to folks overseas, but I have to deal with that.

Fred's better than the "leading" RINOs, it's true

But he's far from the only one on stage with the right answers to second amendment questions...
JMR

Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.

Speaking of CNN, they were

Speaking of CNN, they were also the network that following the arrest of that teenager who threatened to shoot up his school a few months ago, showed a table covered with all manner of "machine guns" and "assault rifles". I looked at those images and thought "if I can't afford all those guns at my age and status in life, how the hell does a teenager?" The answer was "He can't!", so I took a closer look at the guns the next time the video ran, and saw features on them that immediately told me they were all airsoft guns, not real guns.

CNN, the most reliable name in network news, apparently forgot to mention the "machine guns" and "assault rifles" only fired 6MM plastic balls that are designed to be shot in the house without breaking anything.

Great point Brizzila, I

Great point Brizzila,

I told my wife the same thing. We have Tevo, I stopped the picture and took a good look. I noticed they were just as you said.

I told my wife, that Mom had to have deep pockets to pay for all of that armament, not to mention that they were for the most part BB guns.

 

 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day

lemme get this straight

Abortion is a guaranteed, written in stone, Constitutional right we're not allowed to limit in any way...

...but the 2nd amendment, written by the forefathers' own hands, as an hommage to the minutemen who rallied America into existance - that amendment is up for debate.

Get back to me when Elizabeth Edwards, Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama and Theresa Heinz Kerry have all had abortions.

only for hunting sports

If you look at all the gun control drivel this makes sense (to them). Guns are only to be allowed for sporting purposes. No hunting license - you're up to no good, take away your guns.

I am a Life Member of the Second Amendment Foundation and an Edownment Member of the NRA.... AND I DON'T HAVE A HUNTING LICENSE. I guess I'm one of the evil gun owners, eh? But wait, there is no license needed for target shooting (yet), and unless I want concealed carry I don't need a permit for self/home defense (yet).

Amazing...

According to CNN's logic,

According to CNN's logic, are we to infer that because he has a computer but does not publish a newspaper, he doesn't really support the First Amendment..???

JohnM good one.    These

JohnMgood one. 

 

These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day