CNN has posted a Political Ticker entry trying to create a "gotcha" on 2nd Amendment supporter, Fred Thompson. CNN's South Carolina Producer Peter Hamby has breathlessly announced that "Thompson does not have hunting license," but the question is... so what? Do you HAVE to own a hunting license to be for the 2nd Amendment? Does Fred not owning a hunting license disqualify him as a gun rights advocate? Well, it appears that CNN imagines that you are illegitimate if you claim to support the 2nd Amendment yet you don't have a valid hunting license. What we end up with here is proof that CNN doesn't have a clue what it means to own a gun, what it means to support gun rights, nor do they understand the 2nd Amendment itself, or that there are various "gun cultures" and levels of interest and usage for guns in the United States.
Of course, CNN's allusion to that claim is absurd. It is perfectly legitimate to support the 2nd Amendment without being a hunter.
Here's CNN's set up:
COLUMBIA, South Carolina (CNN) -- Fred Thompson has made a point of visiting gun shops and gun shows while hitting the campaign trail in New Hampshire and South Carolina, usually with camera crews in tow.
And now what Hamby imagines is the strike out pitch:
But Thompson said Wednesday he does not have a hunting license, nor has be been hunting recently.
Now, anyone interested in the Constitution, history, guns as a hobby, guns as historical artifacts, target shooting, Civil War and Revolutionary War reenacting, or Cowboy shooting will know right away that CNN's gotcha is a meaningless point to flog. All those interested in the gun hobbies and causes mentioned above have no necessary connection to hunting whatsoever. Folks who like target shooting, reenacting or history might also be hunters, but many are not. Yet they are ALL for 2nd Amendment rights, hunting or no.
Let's use me for instance. I am interested in guns as historical artifacts. I have a collection of guns from the early 1800s to current era examples. At this time I have over 25 different weapons of various eras. Yet, I have never used a gun to kill a living thing. I have never been hunting and I have never owned a hunting license. I'm not against hunting, it just has never been my interest. I know hundreds of gun enthusiasts in my area of interest and only a small percentage of them are avid hunters. Heck, some never even fire their guns being only interested in the collecting aspect of firearms.
Yet, here is CNN acting as if Thompson should be looked at askance because he does not currently have a hunting license, quite despite that he has had them in the past and been hunting many, many times throughout his life (unlike Mitt Romney who claimed to be a hunter "all his life," yet had only hunted twice during that same lifetime). CNN seems to have no idea that there is more to gun enthusiasm than hunting.
Let us also visit the actual 2nd Amendment for a second, shall we? In fact, the 2nd Amendment has no discussion of hunting in it at all. It is the military usage of guns and the protection they afford that the 2nd Amendment is interested in, not hunting. That being true, it is perfectly in keeping with the 2nd Amendment to never hunt at all, yet still be interested in safeguarding that right to own firearms.
So, even if Thompson never hunted a day in his life, he can still be a perfectly legitimate spokesman for 2nd Amendment rights. Not that CNN has even the vaguest grasp of the issue, obviously.
The gotcha didn't work CNN. Back to the drawing board. Oh, and, Peter Hamby should do himself a favor and actually read the Constitution next time he tries a foray into questions the answers to which are so obviously over his head!














Comments Policy
Heck, the networks are just
December 6, 2007 - 05:59 ET by bigtimerHeck, the networks are just going to try anyway possible to do the "Can I get me hunting' license here"...with some kind of a fake comparison to Kerry...
I worry not about this.
Big times are coming down the pike Warner..Thompson is just gonna' take that dueling pistol out so cleaned and prepared.. aim it good when we get to the SC primary..that nobody-on either coasts are gonna' know what hit them!
Of course that is just my opinion..and my opinion has been so wrong before...LOL!
Take it for what you will...but really they are in the desperation mode...the long knives aren't even out yet, let alone the ones' that bother to sharpen them on their tripe.
It fits the standard of
December 6, 2007 - 07:00 ET by USA4freedomIt fits the standard of what the MSM/CNN thinks of conservatives:
We all hunt and have pickup trucks with gun racks in the window, with a bumper sticker of the confederate flag.
We are Bible thumping religious zealots.
We all want to bomb an abortion clinic.
We hate all minorities.
We all live in trailer parks.
We have a three flags in our house the US, the confederate,and the Nazi flag.
I know one thing, if the MSM hates him, I like him more and more..
Bigtimer is right, that little sound track of John F,ing Kerry tells us just what the “educated among us” thinks of conservatives.
I wana get me a huntn license. Big joke a-hole, ohh, your not President.. the joke was on you..
Maybe Jeff Foxworthy should do a show:
If you to this...You could be a liberal..
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Don't forget - wife-beating,
December 6, 2007 - 16:52 ET by BeowulfDon't forget - wife-beating, beer-drinking, dog-kicking... And we all drool!
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
I second amendment that opinion
December 6, 2007 - 07:53 ET by Jack BauerI second amendment that opinion BT.
Maybe Fred thinks you should only hunt to put meat on the table, and that given his hectic schedule he gets his beef at Walmart.
Who knows. Maybe he's packing at this moment with a concealed weapons permit.
Maybe they could have (shock, horror) just... ASKED him! Nah, that would be to much like old-fashioned "reporting."
Wait, you expect reporters
December 6, 2007 - 12:03 ET by CJK51Wait, you expect reporters to actually ask honest questions of Republicans? How dare you put such a burden on these poor, overworked, underappreciated bastions of the First Amendment!
Please pardon me for getting that sarcasm all over you, Jack. :-)
Weird CNN
December 6, 2007 - 06:32 ET by 10ksnookerI don't have a hunting lisence either. Last time I checked the Second Amdendment wasn't about hunting, except in the warped mind of a liberal. I guess only phony over the hill posing liberals buy them for show these days.
Means exactly nothing, except the Corrupt News Newtwork living up to it's namesake.
I have hunted all my life
December 6, 2007 - 07:30 ET by USA4freedomI have hunted all my life but I haven’t hunted or “got me ah..hunting licence” in two years.
So now..I think we should change the Constution!!
The MSM thinks that we are so simple minded..
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc. Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Thompson should just say
December 6, 2007 - 07:03 ET by motherbeltThompson should just say he's not a hunter, but he keeps a .44 in his nightstand. That would give them the vapors. LOL
}}---> Hunting license
December 6, 2007 - 07:42 ET by Cool ArrowI will say (hypothetically for fear of idiot PETA nerds) that if my dog were crushed by a car 3 years ago in front of my house) I would have ended his suffering quickly rather than carry him to a Vet.
I wouldn't have considered it "hunting" but I guess if such a thing were made public I could never run for public office.
I haven't even touched a gun
December 6, 2007 - 07:08 ET by JSchulerI haven't even touched a gun and I'm a 2nd Amendment enthusiast. Peter Hamby's poor little head would probably explode if he found out people like me existed.
What must God think of
December 6, 2007 - 07:25 ET by NonanonWhat must God think of liberals? Surely He is disgusted by how they refuse to use their brain for actual thinking.
This is another facet of their feeling that unless you are one of what you are discussing, you can't have an opinion about it. Yet at the same time, liberals are constantly opining (and legislating) about things they have no clue about nor any connection to.
If liberals were consistent (try saying that with a straight face), they would interpret the 2nd Amendment in such a manner that they would require militias be formed and armed rather than trying to take guns from law-abiding citizens. But given the spirit behind the amendment, liberals are possibly the ones the amendment was designed to allow us to protect ourselves from.
How can liberals say the right to bears arms doesn't exist when it is actually written in The Constitution while the right to an abortion does when it isn't actually written there? But then when you feel a document is 'living', it is meaningless since it can be changed on a whim. They love that when it benefits them.
Sigh
December 6, 2007 - 07:49 ET by ClarinetAndrewLiberals as so consistantly inconsistant.
Like five year olds always changing the rules of a game in the middle to assure that they will win.
The Second Amendment guarantees the ability to thwart tyrants!
December 6, 2007 - 07:52 ET by RonC"It is the military usage of guns and the protection they afford that the 2nd Amendment is interested in, not hunting." - ??
Au contraire - the amendment is clear in the context of history, it is to guarantee the individual the right to keep and bear arms in opposition to government tyranny. Socialist later-day revisionism would have you believe it was about state-owned and controlled troops, or 'state militias' - which is pure poppycock.
Madison envisioned private citizens defeating any US Army - or state controled army.
Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist No. 28 made the same point, saying;
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is
then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of
self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government,
and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be
exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of
the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons
intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels,
subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct
government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The
citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without
system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
What the socialist have tried to do - and continue to try to do, is disarm the citizen - under-arm the citizen - bluntly attempting to make the second amendment nul and void of its original intent.
Sadly - they have been far too successful, and one day this nation will face raw deadly tyranny once again.
Au Contraire? That IS why I
December 6, 2007 - 08:09 ET by Warner Todd HustonAu Contraire?
That IS why I said "and the protection they afford" after all!
Huh?
December 6, 2007 - 08:08 ET by supercon"Yet, here is CNN acting as if Thompson should be looked at askance . "
What the hell does that mean? Askance?
You're cruising for a wedgie pal.
Victory in Iraq.
Askance?
December 6, 2007 - 11:11 ET by fosstenI can see it now: Robert DeNiro in Goodfellas...
"I heard t'ings...you were lookin' at him askance...Yes you were lookin' at him askance a li'l bit..."
Forget 911, I dial 10MM.
Lifer
December 6, 2007 - 08:19 ET by MentalrushNRA Life Member here. Concealed Carry Permit Holder.
No hunting license.
Why would anyone get a hunting license if they don't hunt anymore or have time to hunt? What a bunch of morons.
“It isn’t that liberals are ignorant, it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so” – Ronald Reagan
Packing
December 6, 2007 - 10:16 ET by OldSailor88I grew up hunting, but I no longer do, so I don't need a hunting license. I do however carry concealed because I am licensed to do so. I don't do this because of my redneck upbringing. I do this for family protection. *See Nebraska mall shooting yesterday* If one of the many concealed carry qualified members of NewsBusters had been in that mall yesterday, the outcome would have been a bit different. That particular situation is one of the very few that would cause one of us to draw our weapon.
Well, Hussein Obama
December 6, 2007 - 08:28 ET by JerryWell, Hussein Obama supports abortion, but has NEVER had one!!! What a FRAUD!
When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).
John Edwards supports
December 6, 2007 - 12:30 ET by Hero SquadJohn Edwards supports expansion of welfare, yet has he ever been on welfare?
(This could go on all day.)
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Shot themselves in the foot?
December 6, 2007 - 08:38 ET by danboDid CNN shoot themselves in the foot again?
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
Free, FRIENDLY advice to Fred & co.
December 6, 2007 - 08:39 ET by sarcasmoFirst, the hard-to-swallow part the media hasn't been reporting, and which IMO hasn't helped your campaign at all. Don't keep paying to have all other Republican candidates excluded from Florida gunshows. It's a stupid waste of your limited money, and with people like Ron Paul's fans, who are perfectly-willing to waylay attendees on the public sidewalk with literature, it won't work anyway. May as well kiss some major Larry Pratt butt, change/disavow a few old positions, and admit that the gun community is -- as Warner himself shows -- diverse and smart. You can't fool us these days because gun-rights fans own the internet. We know your record's not perfect but we also know you're a damn sight better than the major-RINOs.
Now the bitter pill's over. Time for the fun part, which your wife and various other well-intentioned political advisors will no-doubt try to veto. Ignore them all and pay attention to the sarcastic libertarian Ron Paul supporter instead. ;) Advisors will say "people think machineguns are all illegal!!!" They're right, too, but ask yourself why? Might it be due to mediabias?? Might that particular variety of bias, ignorance, and bigotry be particularly-easy to lampoon, especially if accompanied with a bit of suggested Larry Pratt asskissing? IMO the answer is "yes."
Time to do something radical. Pencil in Thursday, April 10th on your calendar (it's too-late for October, but the shoot's never been anything-like a secret) and go to the Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot on the first, somewhat restricted day because the crowds will be insane (in more ways than "big") Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. You need to arrive in that red pickup truck full of Fred-literature Thursday morning around 10AM. Maybe bring 2 trucks, because this gun show is HUGE and your people will be out by Sunday afternoon if my guess is right.
Your sole mission is to get photographed with the biggest possible machineguns or cannons you can (a WW2-style flamethrower is sometimes available, too). You need to fire-off a long burst while grinning like a banshee at the cars & dirt you're hosing. You won't need to pretend to smile, though, because sometimes happiness truly is a belt-fed weapon, and unlike many campaign photo-ops, this one will actually be FUN. Once you've hosed that belt, you need to dump all the literature on Fred supporters there, who'll love the fact that you showed-up, because doing something like this will take BALLS. You can probably be out of there by noon for a nap.
Will the biased news media go-nuts if you take my advice? Yes. That's your goal. Then you can goad them on all the bias they're guaranteed to spew, while subtly slamming the RINOs. Ideally, you could have Kentucky supporters cook you a deer-feast that Thursday night, and with a forkful of venison in your hand, you can look up and say something like: "The Second Amendment isn't about hunting, but Bambi here sure tastes good."
JMR
Who just got this year's load of Bambi-sausage -- YUMMY!!! :)
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Actually, the statement that
December 6, 2007 - 12:56 ET by BruzillaActually, the statement that "all machineguns are illegal" is technically correct. Under the laughably named Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) of 1986, the manufacture and transfer of all selective-fire and automatic weapons for/to private citizens was outlawed. Guns that were made prior to May 86 are exempt, but they are in a category all their own now.
By the way... it was pinheads like Wayne LaPierre at the NRA who decided to lay down and let this law get passed over the objections of NRA members. The leadership said that the ban would only impact Class III weapons, there were more than enough on the market to meet demand, and that there was no worries of further bans. We, the members, said BS. I guess we know which side was right.
Agreed.
December 6, 2007 - 13:06 ET by sarcasmoYou're hearing from the side of the debate that likes JPFO & GOA more than the NRA, and did even back then. I would someday like to own a full-auto "American 180" that's properly-suppressed, which is proof I like cheap fun, at least ammo-wise (another area we're quietly-losing, and the UN-fans in obese government are winning, BTW)...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
When I was in the Navy here
December 6, 2007 - 13:31 ET by BruzillaWhen I was in the Navy here in Jacksonville in the early 1980's, I made some side money by converting AR-15s to M-16s for a local gun store. I would swap out the firing group parts and bolt carrier, and install a drop-in sear, test fire, and take the rifle back to the store so they could handle the transfer paperwork.
I had 200 drop-in sears at my house when I got transferred to Bermuda, and since guns are banned there I knew I wouldn't need them. I sold them for the same price I paid for them, $5 each. That was in April 85. A year later those sears were selling for about $200 each. I still feel ill thinking about it. :)
NO HUNTING LICENSE EITHER
December 6, 2007 - 08:40 ET by Der AlteI own three guns and I don't hunt and I am in favor of hunting. In order to be pro-2nd ammendment one must have a hunting license is typical liberal false logic. 'If you don't have a hunting license then there is no reason to have a gun'! Sort of like you can't be pro-1st ammendment unless you have your own dopey news network!
CN, grasping at straws
December 6, 2007 - 08:43 ET by ToddonCapeCodSo, by the logic of CNN, should men (like celebrity Ed Harris) who obviously cannot have babies, be pro-abortion?
Hunting licenses
December 6, 2007 - 08:51 ET by sarcasmoAre not needed to shoot all animals, anyway. Deer & ducks are in the 'get a license' category in Florida. Wascally wabbits aren't. All three are quite edible once you shoot, clean, and cook 'em. Ignorance leads to bigotry, every time, and journalists may not want to admit it, but they're largely-ignorant regarding firearms.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Sarc
December 6, 2007 - 11:13 ET by fosstenIn light of this insightful viewpoint given by the MSM, I feel that we should all surrender our guns to Sarah Brady.
Forget 911, I dial 10MM.
The weird part, to me, is the media's extreme-bigotry.
December 6, 2007 - 11:20 ET by sarcasmoThey're perfectly willing to hire a reporter of a specific race to cover that race, and hire a reporter with a particular sexual orientation to cover sexual orientation issues. OTOH the idea of hiring someone even halfway-clueful about firearms (and again, I'd BARELY qualify for that description -- it's NOT like I'm ANY sort of 'expert' here just because I happen to know a few basic factoids!!) never occurs to the media, in all their ironic bigotry. And there's really no other word for their behavior at this point BUT "bigotry," even though they really-hate hearing that particular word from the likes of me...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
I'm giving mine up to
December 6, 2007 - 16:57 ET by BeowulfI'm giving mine up to Rebecca Peterson - at least SHE'S endorsed by the UN!!! And look at the wonderful things she's done for Austrailia... ;-)~
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
yah, ok, molon labe.
December 6, 2007 - 20:08 ET by amberyah, ok, molon labe.
Neither are stray cats and
December 6, 2007 - 20:07 ET by amberNeither are stray cats and dogs where I live
Ah, tamales on the
December 6, 2007 - 21:15 ET by MikeBAh, tamales on the hoof!
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
what the hell does a hunting license have to do owning guns
December 6, 2007 - 08:56 ET by lunaticcringeradioi don't have a pilots license but i kept blackhawk helicopters and h-53 helicopters and a myriad of civilian helicopters flying for the pilots that do fly them for over 10 years.
with this thought process i'm assuming that everyone who flys on a commercial jet each day must have a pilots license too.
lets switch and quantify this thought process to a liberal agenda, every woman who is pro choice must have first had at least 3 abortions or else they can't march in parades with signs.
i own about 5 firearms, i have never hunted in my life, never owned a hunting license, so obviously i can't support the 2nd amendment.
lunaticcringeradio
ps this is why i am pro abortion, idiots tend to have them, and idiots wont be forced to raise more idiots that will be this stooopid. let the morons kill themselves off. plus i want more parking and less traffic.
Fred can't win
December 6, 2007 - 09:09 ET by KillgraveIf Fred gets a hunting license then he's a killer of innocent animals.
If he doesn't hunt then he's a "hypocrite" for affirming the 2nd Amendment.
I honestly don't know if these liberals are engaging in deliberate deception and false logic (good term), or if they're simply retarded.
Second Amendment issues
December 6, 2007 - 09:44 ET by Jer[Note: I posted the following recently as a reply to a comment by USA4freedom hoping to generate an exchange of views, or just some general opinion on the Second Amendment, its limitations [if any] and related issues. Other than a couple of brief remarks by MightyMouth and bassndude, there was virtually no response. I've decided to give it one more shot...if still no interest, I promise to never bring it up again.]
December 4, 2007 - 09:32 ET by Jer
No doubt, USA4, those punks were dissuaded by the sudden realization that they might make your day. Good. But they also might just move on to more opportunistic targets...such as elderly women or others less likely to be armed. [Maybe a "Glocks for Grannies" campaign should be launched.]
Let me make one thing clear: I believe anyone should be able to own and keep, at the very least, a shotgun on his or her property. Beyond that, for me anyway, the matter gets complicated. And many years of thought and analysis haven't advanced or clarified my position one whit.
So what are your views USA4? Let me ask a few questions:
--Do you support any restrictions on the ownership and use of firearms, or do you consider the Second Amendment to be absolute in its protection of the citizenry from governmental gun control?
--Would you favor universal arming of the public? In other words, would we have a safer society if every man woman and child not only possessed the legal right to own and carry firearms, but all individuals as a matter of fact carried guns? Would we be a more stable, more gentile nation?
--Should there be any limitations on where firearms could be carried? To restaurants, bars, churches, concerts, schools, the garden club, birthday parties, on planes, buses, to places of employment? Or are some locale restrictions legitimate.
--What about types of weapons? The Second Amendment specifies the right to bear arms. Arms include a heck of a lot more than just my twelve gauge shotgun. An AK-47 is certainly an "arm". For that mattter, so is a bazooka, a tank and a Patriot missile. Why wouldn't those arms be within the purview of constitutional protection? I once read a statement in one of Wayne LaPierre's books that those weapons weren't consistent with the traditional muskets possessed by colonial era Americans. Well, Mr. LaPierre, that's an interesting anecdote--and it has nothing to do with the unmodified word "arms" contained in the Second Amendment. So how about it...why prohibit a fully automatic M-16?
It seems to me that LaPierre's philosophy--and that of the NRA--employs the theory that the level of public safety within American society exists in direct proportion to the degree to which the citizenry is armed. That is, the more people with more guns equals more safety. I just don't know that I can buy the argument. There will always be criminals. If the natural and consistent presumption of the criminal is that his target is armed, he will simply use more stealth and greater--and more frequently lethal--force to make sure he maintains the advantage over his victim.
[By the way, I hear of pawn shops getting hit from time to time, and they gernerally are well stocked with various firearms.]
Anyway, you needn't respond to every single question I've crammed into this post, but I would be interested in reading some more of your general thoughts on the topic.
Thanks, Jer
Jer, I don't have time for all of 'em
December 6, 2007 - 10:02 ET by sarcasmoBut please see above. Fully-automatic AK-47s (IF they have a registered side-plate) are perfectly-legal under the National Firearms Act (NFA). They're also very-expensive these days. There are so-few of them because of an '86 MG-ban (signed by Reagan!) ironically named the "Firearms Owners Protection Act" which along with the 1934 NFA in effect transmogrified registered right sideplates into an ever-decreasing number of collectable "legal machineguns." Noise suppressors ("silencers") are also highly-taxed & regulated, despite being in effect safety devices to prevent hearing damage. In any other industry, the idea that the control-freaks would be against safety equipment would seem strange, but we're in the bizzarro-world of 1000s of firearms regulations.
Those registered parts are, in effect, precious metals by government fiat. Thats' the best way to look at them. If you get into trouble with this aspect of Federal Law then 10 year sentences, huge fines, and stomped pet cats can all result. But I'm obviously fascinated by the "aluminum or steel can become precious metals just because the government says-so" aspect. Given how fiat money inflation issues have suddenly come to the forefront of this campaign, I'll leave the irony of ever-decreasing precious-firearms-metals by fiat to you to contemplate.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Thanks sarc...interesting
December 6, 2007 - 10:47 ET by JerThanks sarc...interesting information. When you have the time, will you answer a couple of questions which I have after reading your post:
Can AK-47s be fired other than full auto? If so, can they be bought by anyone passing background check? What about Thompson's, BARs, M-16s etc. in semi-automatic form, and how easily can they be converted to full--even if illegal to do so?
Is a "registered sideplate" a sheet of metal attached to the stock with identifying information stamped on it designating the owner a "legal collector"? Are subsequent transfers permitted? I guess the whole "precious metals" designation is just a ruse to ensure ownership by "serious" collectors.
I suppose the silencer prohibitions arise out of concerns that in the wrong hands, it could create advantages for the bad guys vis a vis law enforcememt. On the other hand, I still have minor hearing issues from M-14 qualification in basic, and artillery survey training at Fort Sill.
Jer
ok, Jer, I'll try, but I'm no expert.
December 6, 2007 - 11:04 ET by sarcasmoThere are 2 varieties. Semi-only made for import or made here, and the now-rare fiat precious-metal full auto variety. The fully automatic ones may or may not come with a selector switch, and some FA machineguns can be made to let-off single shots even in full auto mode.
Your conversion question, in addition to being fraught with legal/cat-stomping issues, is harder to answer. It depends on the manufacturer and the time-frame of import just how hard it would be to illegally-convert the thing. Each different gun is different, and at least on some old .22s the gun can convert ITSELF to an illegal status under the NFA solely through normal wear. Yes, innocent owners have gotten in trouble over that issue, and a biased and bigoted media tends NOT to notice. Generally, though, something like a Sten gun can be made in a decent machine-shop.
Sideplates or "Lightning Links" or other parts are registered pieces of metal, generally with a serial number on them but NOT the owner's name as those keep changing. That info is (imperfectly...The registery is chock-full of errors the BATF lies in court about!) on the piece of paper. Transfers with the $200 tax are hard, but legal unless it's a "Dealer Sample," which is yet-another can of legal worms. And yes, like Warner the collectors are very serious about their pieces of history despite much obese-government oppression. Read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross for more.
Regarding noise devices, at some ranges in Europe, it's illegal to shoot WITHOUT one. In Finland, you can get them in a hardware store, and the hard thing to get (not TOO hard, Finland's cool because they tend to remember their history...) is the gun. IANAL, contact one instead of using this information for anything legally-risky, it's an overview off the top of my head only.
JMR
PS Thanks for your service.
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Wow, the regs do get pretty
December 6, 2007 - 11:58 ET by JerWow, the regs do get pretty Byzantine, don't they?
[Appreciate the thanks, but it was six months basic and advanced, then 5 1/2 years in Guard and Reserves. Those who went to Nam deserve the real thanks.]
Jer
Selective-fire weapons are
December 6, 2007 - 13:21 ET by BruzillaSelective-fire/automatic weapons are not perfectly legal. Only those made before May 1986 are legal for transfer.
As far as I am concerned the
December 6, 2007 - 10:08 ET by Warner Todd HustonAs far as I am concerned the Constitution is talking about military weapons. Therefore, there is NO REASON that a regular citizen shouldn't be allowed to have a machine gun, FULLY automatic.
So, you can say that I seen NO gun control as reasonable, except that of quantity. A giant arsenal is something I see a reason to restrict and something that an argument to restrict could reasonably be made. I couldn't give you a number at this time, but hundreds and hundreds of guns in the ownership of one person could be cause for alarm. So, that is about all the restrictions I see as Constitutional.
However, guns and firearms means just that. A bazooka, a torpedo, a bomb even a jet fighter... those are not guns.They are ordnance. The founders meant firearms to be rifles and pistols. They did not mean Cannons and ships of war.
How's that for an answer?
Thanks Warner...Your views
December 6, 2007 - 11:10 ET by JerThanks Warner...Your views are a little more expansive than mine, but I understand your point.
True, bazookas [and grenade launchers, mortars, etc.] aren't guns, but they are certainly "arms" which would arguably be considered constitutionally protected by the Second Amendment. The founders may have had only rifles and pistols in mind merely because they didn't envision bazookas, tanks, and other sophisticated weaponry. [But there were cannon, so the issue is still murky.]
Jer
Jer
December 6, 2007 - 11:29 ET by Warner Todd HustonNot arguably if you do due research. The Founders meant firearms and firearms then meant longarms and pistols. They did not use the word "guns" to mean rifles and pistols. "Guns" meant cannons. Cannons aren't covered by the 2nd Amendment.
So, with historical evidence, machine guns are in. Bazookas are out.
Warner...thanks for the
December 6, 2007 - 12:02 ET by JerWarner...thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of that distinction.
Jer
No prob. It isn't really
December 6, 2007 - 12:04 ET by Warner Todd HustonNo prob. It isn't really that well known.
What are you using as a
December 6, 2007 - 13:17 ET by BruzillaWhat are you using as a reference here? I've never heard that position made before, and I find it highly unlikely that the Founders would have discussed having the citizenry oppose their government by charging cannons with just musket and ball.
Hi Warner, great
December 6, 2007 - 18:16 ET by JohnMHi Warner, great article!
Regarding bazookas, I wonder... Their navy was well acquainted with "grenades", a hollow shot filled with gunpowder and fused. It was intended to explode after being fired from the cannon. In some engagements where the fighting was close, such grenades were lit and lobbed by hand.
Because their firearms were black powder muzzle-loaders, the owner of the firearm also had on hand a quantity of shot and gunpowder. They would undoubtably know the properties of these materials, and be able to use them when needed in combinations other than just their rifles... They'd know how to create lots of noise and smoke, besides explosions. (I'd bet that they used powder to shatter rocks and tree stumps, to dislodge cave-ins in mine shafts, etc.)
Would it have been considered unreasonable if in the protection of one's lands, someone used the tools at hand to create a homemade grenade?
So, maybe machine guns AND bazookas?
Your comment "... something
December 6, 2007 - 13:25 ET by BruzillaYour comment "... something I see a reason to restrict..." is a prime example of the problems we have with the second ammendment. It shouldn't be open to restrictions based on how many guns you own, what calibers they are, what they look like, or how many people live where you do. The right is to keep and bear arms, not keep and bear arms provided... There are no other rights that we allow to be tampered with like this, and we shouldn't allow them to tamper with this one.
Can you imagine someone saying "I believe in free speech, but not if they're going to talk about "X", or "I believe in a right to vote, unless you're black with a Mexican surname." I don't think so.
Jer: No Yes,
December 6, 2007 - 10:15 ET by bassndudeJer:
No
Yes, mandatory.
No
The Constitution sayes "arms" meaning fire arms and or weapons. The way I see it is that means any weapons. Guns, full auto or what ever. The only restrictions that should be out there are for the nukes. I dont think we should keep nukes in the house. Other than that...well, the Constitution is pretty clear. "Congress shall make no law..." They have already done that and the weapons issue was reserved for the State.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
While I don't have the time
December 6, 2007 - 11:28 ET by BeowulfWhile I don't have the time (or inclination) to address all you points, I will talk to several:
No doubt, USA4, those punks were dissuaded by the sudden realization that they might make your day. Good. But they also might just move on to more opportunistic targets...such as elderly women or others less likely to be armed. [Maybe a "Glocks for Grannies" campaign should be launched.]
"Glocks for Grannies" would probably be quit the effective crime deterrent. The first couple of punks trying to beat an old lady out of her SS check getting blown away by Granny would put the skids on many, if not most, punks bent on similar activities.
--Do you support any restrictions on the ownership and use of firearms, or do you consider the Second Amendment to be absolute in its protection of the citizenry from governmental gun control?
No, there is no restriction on law abiding citizens possession of firearms. The 2nd is soley intended as a counter to government control - the taking by the government of powers WE THE PEOPLE do not grant them (exactly wht the Lefties constantly do).
--Would you favor universal arming of the public? In other words, would we have a safer society if every man woman and child not only possessed the legal right to own and carry firearms, but all individuals as a matter of fact carried guns? Would we be a more stable, more gentile nation?
It is a choice we as citizens, protected by the Constitution, make for ourselves. Who was it that coined the truism "an armed society is a polite society"? And it is documented, proven, and factual that areas without restrictive gun laws are safer and with far less violent crime than the reverse. As for being "gentile", save that for the French. We are rude and crude Americans. And we are also the most powerful and desired nation on the planet.
It seems to me that LaPierre's philosophy--and that of the NRA--employs the theory that the level of public safety within American society exists in direct proportion to the degree to which the citizenry is armed. That is, the more people with more guns equals more safety. I just don't know that I can buy the argument. There will always be criminals. If the natural and consistent presumption of the criminal is that his target is armed, he will simply use more stealth and greater--and more frequently lethal--force to make sure he maintains the advantage over his victim.
I briefly spoke to this above, and as I said, it is documented and provable that more LEGALLY owned firearms equates to a safer society. As for the criminals adapting to such widespread gun ownership, I say my own au contraire. Criminals are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Some will adapt, most will not.
The bottom line is that the 2nd guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, and it shall not be infringed. Talking about tanks and missiles being included in the Amendment is frivolous and inane. The 2nd was intended exclusively as a counter to government takeover of our nation. Period. It has nothing to do with crime or hunting. It has nothing to do with militias. It, like all the other Amendments referring to "the people" is an individual right. Just as anyone can choose to exercise their right to free speech or religion, any law abiding citizen can choose to be armed, or not.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Nice commentary, Beowulf,
December 6, 2007 - 12:35 ET by JerNice commentary, Beowulf, and you are correct in that the strictures of the Second Amendment are directed against governmental action, as are the other provisions of the Bill of Rights. For example, a private organization might impose limitations on your freedom of speech that the government would be prohibited from doing.
Even so, I think your assertion that there is an unfettered right of firearm possession by law abiding citizens may be a stretch. That would seem to entitle one to walk into a federal courtroom with a pistol in his coat pocket. Maybe I'm reading too much into your statement though.
And, yes, my missile comment was frivilous, but at the time I didn't think it necessarily illogical. I was just using an absurdly extreme example to illustrate a point. After reading Warner's historical clarification, I'll concede that it may have been both frivilous and constitutionally illogical.
Jer
Jer, thank you for the
December 6, 2007 - 14:28 ET by BeowulfJer, thank you for the civilized discussion on what has become, for many, akin to partisan politics. As for unfettered firearm possession, that is exactly what I'm saying. Sure, there are common-sense restrictions, such as age or mental stability, but law abiding citizens should be allowed, per Constitutional amendment, to carry a firearm wherever they go. But I will grant you that Courtrooms are an issue that needs much serious thought. Finally, while I sort of understand your exaggeration to make a point, this is the same game the anti's play. A college student with a 9mm pistol suddenly becomes a maniacal killer armed with a high capacity assault weapon. Clinton's "assault weapon" ban delineated characteristics that had exactly zero to do with the functioning of the weapon. A civilian AK-47 and a semi-auto Remington hunting rifle work essentially the same way. The only difference of substance is how they look. Bayonet lugs and magazine capacity were also determining factors whether a rifle was an assault weapon or not. None of which addressed a single aspect of the term "assault". Now pistols are being named assault weapons. And many anti's use the same argument as you did as to "where does the 2nd stop?" Can private citizens own tanks and missiles? This sensationalizing of the argument only divides the issue further.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
no response?
December 6, 2007 - 15:13 ET by JohnMYou say that other than the 2 posters you mentioned, you got "virtually no response", and so you repeated your post from the other thread. Now you've gotten more detailed responses.
But I posted a valuable link, which you have apparantly not read.
So I will repeat the essence of what I offered: http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.pdf
This fascinating document contains the DoJ's research on the 2nd Amendment.
Although you just wrote "Even so, I think your assertion that there is an unfettered right of firearm possession by law abiding citizens may be a stretch.", it is the DoJ 's own position that the 2nd Amendment is indeed an individual right.
Please read it.
And please don't dismiss feedback such as this as "virtually no response", or I will not be able to take you seriously in the future.
I think this document may be one of the most important pieces that has been written on the subject, both because of its content and because of its origination. In essence, the courts are supposed to use it as their guide in how to interpret the 2nd Amendment.
Rather than rely on informal interpretations or personal opinions, I think that anyone with serious interest in the 2nd Amendment should take the time to read through it carefully.
Is this response enough for you?
John M...I just logged back
December 6, 2007 - 18:48 ET by JerJohn M...I just logged back in and noticed your post above which also references your earlier response on the other thread.
I owe you an apology. I hope you will accept it.
Somehow I had overlooked your previous post, and consequently did not see your link to what appears to be a very informative article.
I will read it ASAP.
Thank you for that earlier response as well as your comments today.
Again, I'm very sorry for my oversight.
Jer
no problem, Jer - I know I
December 7, 2007 - 15:01 ET by JohnMno problem, Jer - I know I can't keep up with all the postings either.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts about the DoJ document. Let me know when you're posting more on this topic, or send me a private message for further discussion.
JohnM: I printed a copy
December 8, 2007 - 00:03 ET by JerJohnM: I printed a copy yesterday and have read about half of it. It's lengthy, but very instructive. Thank you.
Jer
the second should not have
December 6, 2007 - 20:13 ET by amberthe second should not have any limitations for law abiding US citizens. I should be able to buy caseloads of ammo without the FBI comming to my house and shooting up my kids. I should be able to do whatever is necessary to protect life, liberty, and property from a tyranical government.
Where do I get a license
December 6, 2007 - 09:59 ET by LCT688Where do I get a license to hunt CNN staff members?
"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master and deserves one."
Alexander Hamilton
Since their operation is
December 6, 2007 - 10:17 ET by ricklailSince their operation is in Georgia it requires a GA license. You have to go to Atlanta and see Neil Boortz for those. I don't think he charges but a couples bucks for the printing.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
}}---> LCT688
December 6, 2007 - 10:11 ET by Cool ArrowYou might want to modify your comment as a Wisconsin teacher discovered.
It fits into the media's
December 6, 2007 - 10:12 ET by Ken ShepherdIt fits into the media's faulty "understanding" of the 2nd Amendment, which in the liberal's mind is to protect the right to hunt.
That's the convenient false canard that liberal pols use when they say they are for the 2nd Amendment, they usually qualify it by talking about not taking away rights from hunters.
Of course, I think it's not smart, if you're a liberal pol, to defend hunting. You need all those vegan voters that you can get.
}}---> Vegans
December 6, 2007 - 10:20 ET by Cool ArrowI particularly pity the poor pigs put to slave labor rooting truffles for Parisian palates.
Jeesh... CNN so smart
December 6, 2007 - 10:16 ET by TaserCatI'm not a smoker. I guess using CNN's logic, I have no right to oppose all the new anti-smoking laws that take a smoker's rights away, to use a perfectly legal product. And in some cases, take those rights away, even in their own homes and cars. I better start smoking if I want to have any say there.
And I've always supported gun rights. I guess I don't have that right anymore. At least not until I get a gun. I better do that too. Thanks CNN for clearing it all up for me!
I've never even shot a gun
December 6, 2007 - 10:19 ET by wiwfI've never even shot a gun (I'm 20) and am still a strong advocate for gun rights!
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Well then, I recommend the
December 6, 2007 - 10:48 ET by dvdaughtry