The San Francisco Chronicle decided to pat Californians on the back last week for how much "better informed" Golden Staters are on the supposed dire threat of global warming. With their headline joyously proclaiming, "Californians better informed on global warming threat, poll finds," the SF Chron handed out the party hats, blew their celebratory horns and lined up little Al Gore statuettes to hand out at the awards banquet. And how is it that their poll "found" this startling fact? Why it's because our friends in California believe, man! It's not because Californians are any better informed, that they know all the facts, it's just that they accept Al Gore's claim that the "debate is over" despite any evidence or lack thereof. They really, really believe man.
Californians are more likely than the rest of the nation to see global warming as a threat, but also are more optimistic that greenhouse gases can be cut while creating jobs and expanding the economy, according to a Field Poll released Friday.
See, they are "better informed" because they are "more likely" to see global warming "as a threat." It's not because they have any more facts or science backing up this "informed" position. It's cuz they "get it," baby.
The SFChron goes on with their elation:
State residents are more likely than other Americans to back efforts to address climate change, with large majorities favoring government regulations, tax incentives and other efforts by industry and individuals to curb their emissions, the poll showed.
Ah, I see. It isn't because our friends on the left coast have memorized Al Gore's movie and independently verified the facts. It's because they are "more likely" than the rest of us dolts to "back efforts to address climate change." It's not that they actually know anything, but because they are more easily duped into allowing extremist global warming advocates to glom onto piles of their tax dollars and more likely to acquiesce to their politicians' demagoguery and pledges to "do something" about global warming.
The Chronicle gives us all sorts of figures to back up their claim, of course.
More than 4 out of 5 respondents said they believe that global warming poses a serious or very serious threat. Californians see climate change as an issue with major regional impacts: 63 percent said it threatens the snowpack in the Sierra; 66 percent said it poses health risks to residents where air quality is poor; 53 percent believe it could hurt Central Valley farmers; and 51 percent said it threatens low-lying coastal communities.
That is just one small segment of the "facts" presented in this piece... all based on Californians feelings and beliefs. The Chronicle piece is filled with these poll percentages, all presented as if they are "facts" that prove the case of global warming.
It should be remembered that there was a time when 100% of the people believed the world was flat and that monsters guarded the edge of that flat world, too. Polls like this do not prove truth, they prove sentiment. Facts and sentiment are not necessarily one and the same, despite how the Chronicle is trying to spin this empty poll. In fact, not one time does the Chronicle talk about facts, or scientific proof in their triumphalist celebration. It's all about believing.
Now, this blind belief, this unthinking faith, is the same sort of thing that elicits chortles of self-importance and guffaws of ridicule from the media when such faith is applied to religion, isn't it? Faith without proof? Faith and belief without knowledge? Aren't these the things that the MSM and their scienceist compatriots in the secular world call "superstitions"?
But, watch out. When applied to the religious beliefs of global warming, why it suddenly becomes "better informed" to just accept it all as mere fact without question and to want to allow the nanny state to come to a dubious rescue makes you "better informed." The same blind faith that is ridiculous for a Christian to indulge in is completely acceptable for an acolyte of global warming as far as the Chronicle is concerned.
This blind faith that the "debate is over" reminds me of how the left in America claimed that we should just get used to the Soviet's existence, that they were here to stay forever. It reminds me how they blindly assumed that the Cold War was unwinnable because the Soviet Union wasn't ever going away. It was because socialism worked and the "debate was over" on that count, they assured us. These are the same people who now say that we cannot win in Iraq.
Yes, the debate really is over. The left is filled with a sense of their own infallibility. And facts and truth... well, that isn't an ingredient necessary for their perfection.
You just have to believe.














Comments Policy
Good catch, Mr. Huston.
November 13, 2007 - 07:35 ET by motherbeltGood catch, Mr. Huston. The headline of that story should read: More Californians Believe in Global Warming Threat.
I think the real howlers are these:
with large majorities favoring government regulations, tax incentives
and other efforts by industry and individuals to curb their emissions,
the poll showed.
and
more optimistic that greenhouse gases can be cut while creating jobs and expanding the economy, and clearing up acne.
OK, I added that last part about the acne.
Advocates always claim that their plan won't be costly, and will actually create jobs and expand the economy. But how they get from government regulation to there is a trip that can only be taken in La-la Land.
PS: The jobs created will be for beaurocrats enforcing the regulations.
One of my favorite Archie
November 13, 2007 - 08:09 ET by danboOne of my favorite Archie Bunker quotes. "Of course I believe in the one true religion. I'd be pretty stupid if I didn't."
They've become the Archie Bunker they laughed at.
Narcissistic personalities?
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
Okay
November 13, 2007 - 08:27 ET by Killgrave"..more optimistic that greenhouse gases can be cut while creating jobs and expanding the economy"
So, jobs will be "created" and the economy will "expand" by shutting down factories and power plants, and strangling transportation?
I'm being serious here.. are people really that stupid?
"are people really that stupid?"
November 13, 2007 - 08:44 ET by danboApparently.
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
...but they're better
November 13, 2007 - 08:47 ET by Warner Todd Huston...but they're better informed, don't forget!
Better informed? Or
November 13, 2007 - 09:10 ET by danboBetter informed? Or narcissistic?
"...the odds are that you'll meet at least 1000 narcissists for every genius."
According to the old DSMIV; the diagnostic criteria.
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance.
2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
4. Requires excessive admiration.
5. Has a sense of entitlement.
6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends
7. Lacks empathy
9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes
Source
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
Yes, but.....
November 13, 2007 - 09:17 ET by KC BeachYes, but they feel good about it and that is all that matters.
knowledge does not equal
November 13, 2007 - 13:39 ET by TruthMongerknowledge does not equal wisdom
Hitler was very "well informed:)"
the tree of knowledge bears forbidden fruit - must be a good reason it's forbidden...?
These people are dangerous, don't kid yourself!
November 13, 2007 - 09:23 ET by planetrepublicanAll kidding aside, these people are dangerous. You can expect a slew of new laws coming out of the state houses and congress to "curb" global warming, laws that will negatively affect our economy and our future. Think gas taxes are high now? Just wait. Glenn Beck has a new book, An Inconvenient Book: Real Solutions to the World's Biggest Problems, where he reports that GE (General Electric) stands to make a ton of $ if and only if congress passes laws designed to offset green house gas emissions.
Add to that comments like this one from David Roberts, Grist Magazine, September, 2006:
“When we’ve finally gotten serious about global warming, when the impacts are really hitting us and we’re in a full worldwide scramble to minimize the damage, we should have war crimes trials for these bastards — some sort of climate Nuremberg.”.
Far-fetched? That’s what the Jews thought in the 1920’s about the Nazi’s. Don’t underestimate these people. Gore and his cabal have managed to hook wink America into the biggest scam ever perpetrated on America, on the west. This is a religion, not science, not based on fact. Joke about it and the Global Warmers will screech that you are guilty of heresy, or blasphemy! Perhaps some new laws curbing “hate speech”, denier’s speech, are in order? After all, you can’t yell fire in a crowded movie theater if there is none, can you? You can’t discriminate against one’s religion (except Christianity or Judaism) can you? That is hate speech, is it not?
The train has left the station, folks, the toothpaste is out of the tube. Too late to joke this back into the hole it belongs in. Now we have to figure out a way of holding back the coming holocaust.
You are correct. This is a
November 13, 2007 - 10:17 ET by ahusserYou are correct. This is a religion. That is why fighting the phony science with science probably will not work. That is why the President of the Czech Republic has stated over and over that this movement is a political movement bordering on a fanatical religion and the Communist/Socialists statists, discredited with the fall of the Soviet Union, morphed into the Green Party in Europe. His address in a Czech newspaper is very revealing and to the point. Everybody has said in these blogs that Gore is scamming us. That Global warming is a hoax. That he is just trying to profit from it. I think this leads us down the wrong road. I can't believe that Gore is just hatching a pyramid/con game. I think he is a "True Believer" bringing us "enlightenment" as he sees it. He has a vision for the world even though that vision like other utopian (read Communist/Socialist) visions is probably delusional, will have evil consequences and bring trouble and discord to the United States and the world.
By implication you seem to
November 13, 2007 - 20:22 ET by MikeBBy implication you seem to be stating that Algore has refused to make a run for the Presidency because he wants to be Comrade Chairman of the United States?
Well, why not? After all he invented (all right, he was instrumental in developing) the internet, discovered Love Canal, was the inspiration of Love Story, and so forth.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Danbo is correct
November 13, 2007 - 10:36 ET by ThalpyDanbo is correct. As long as we continue to reward mediocrity and lack of critical ability among our young, this is what we are going to get. Much of this, of course, represents the results from indoctrination as opposed to proper instruction at our centers for "higher" learning. Proper instruction includes ( but is not limited to) objective discussion, objective criticism of research, diversity of reading material, and, God forbid, some differences of opinion among the faculty. Don't hold your breath.
Yes, but the scary part is
November 13, 2007 - 09:04 ET by Seabeach4348Yes, but the scary part is that they're both stupid AND serious about doing these things!
Sure. And here's some
November 13, 2007 - 10:17 ET by Jack BauerSure.
And here's some other things "informed" Californians believe in:
53% of Californians believe aliens abduct earthlings for experiments.
41% believe George Bush (and not the self-confessing Bin Laden) brought down the Twin Towers.
45% believe so-called manmade "global warming" causes earthquakes.
52% believe the idea of free-speech stared at Berkeley -- and not places like Boston Harbor in 1776, ancient Greece around 1500 BC, Philadelphia in 1789, Magna Carta in 1215 at Runneymede!
Are those Califs just so damn wacky, or what!
...and how many believe
November 13, 2007 - 13:40 ET by TruthMonger...and how many believe 9/11 was a Haliburtion-controlled demolition:)?
For your information...
November 13, 2007 - 10:26 ET by CrashCalifornian's are more informed by faulty information than Bush was on WMD's ("we have the receipt"). The fact that the left thinks "global warming" (which has been slowly morphing into "climate change" in order to prepare for the next cooling cycle) is a "threat" tells us that they are less informed. To understand these frauds, all one needs to do is watch the average Hollywood film. The future is always bleak. If they really wanted to affect change, they'd spend more time teaching children the basics (3-R's) and stop blowing their bad ideas into the wind of scattered thoughts.
The People of California
November 13, 2007 - 10:52 ET by WR JonasWhat a discouraging thought . The people of California are little more than sheep.
Their States history and culture are being ripped to shreds. Their opinions are being shaped by skillful liars and manipulators. They think that their opinions mold the rest of the country. They are being over run by an invader and they are comfortable with the status of their lives.
Eventually the sheep will be sheared and led to slaughter.
Sure, they are much more
November 13, 2007 - 11:57 ET by Sick-n-TiredSure, they are much more informed ---- on Gores and the liberal lefts talking points; that's it--period. These people wouldn't know a fact if it slapped them in the face.
On another note, I want to know how is it we are considered the "skeptics" when we are the ones that know, understand and illustrate the facts, using them to back up our arguements. According to the definition of a "skeptic"---
skep·tic [skep-tik] - noun 1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual
---- it sure would seem to me that, no matter how strong in numbers they are, that the AGW'ers are the TRUE skeptics.
Or maybe I am just a skeptical idiot......
This is how California
November 13, 2007 - 20:48 ET by MikeBThis is how California schools inculcate marxist-socialist-environmentalist whacko propaganda into their students so that the students never critically assess what they're being taught. Coming soon to a school near you.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Of course they belive this.
November 13, 2007 - 11:58 ET by bassndudeOf course they belive this. SF is the center of the known universe, therefor, all intelligence radiates out from there. All knowledge is housed in SF and is released only in little bits here and there to enlighten the rest of us. It was from this point that the Garden of Eden originated and the first slug stood up and walked.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Ahhh SF
November 13, 2007 - 12:22 ET by taterWhere anything goes and you get taxed out the wazzou. This is also the place where the intelligents have the idea of having a nice place for druggies to inject their drug of choice. IMO San Fran is the real sin city not Las Vegas.
Do you realize how much it costs to run for office? More than any honest man could afford. -Montgomery Burns
Modern Day Sodom and Gomorrah...SanFran and LA...
November 13, 2007 - 12:30 ET by vrwc13...Las Vegas is just a legal extention of the greater LA area designed for legal gambling.
SanFran (as they hate to be called) is the obvious one for Sodom...
LA is easily the Gomorrah with hollywood (soft-porn) and the "valley" (hard -porn)...
link...
v
San Fran will be dropped
November 13, 2007 - 12:41 ET by Clear thinkerSan Fran will be dropped into the ocean by a major earth quake. Scientists have been telling us for years, and you have to admit thay have some convincing proof.
If these folks are so damned smart, why do they live there???
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
San Fran will be dropped into the ocean by a major earth quake
November 13, 2007 - 12:54 ET by vrwc13...actually SanFran will be "inside" the "dropping off into the sea". But most of downtown will be toppled as a great deal of it is built on landfill which "liquifies" under intense movement.
v
vrwc...A guy can hope,
November 13, 2007 - 13:04 ET by Clear thinkervrwc...
A guy can hope, can't he?
Actually, depending on how strong the quake is on the major fault will be the deciding factor. And, there are many smaller faults in and around the san fran area. Scientists are not exactly sure what will happen with them in conjunction with the big one.
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
It will be a mess one way
November 13, 2007 - 13:07 ET by vrwc13It will be a mess one way or another. Even problems dating back to the rebuilding of SanFran after the "big one" will become a factor. Alot of damage will occur just from the shaking as it did in Long Beach.
v
I love it when you guys wish
November 13, 2007 - 13:31 ET by cleverpigI love it when you guys wish us dead!
its great to be loved:)
November 13, 2007 - 13:35 ET by TruthMongerits great to be loved:)
Clever, we are just as
November 13, 2007 - 13:52 ET by bassndudeClever, we are just as concerned about the welfare of Kalifornia as Kalifornia is about us. Everytime I watch a movie from those morons out there, they always depict my state and the folks who live here as hicks, rowdys, drunks and welfare riddin drugies. Not to mention that all towns are small and people still ride horses and dont drive. So, yeah, Im real concerned about them falling into the pacific. It makes me smile at night and gives me peace while I sleep.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Not to mention...
November 13, 2007 - 13:55 ET by tater...when you get into a discussion with a lot of Kalifornians they call you such things as a bigot, racist, intolerant, and a homophob. They probably wouldn't listen to anyone telling them they are sitting on a ticking time bomb. Oh I forgot say global warming will lead to the "big one". Then they'll listen.
Do you realize how much it costs to run for office? More than any honest man could afford. -Montgomery Burns
And if they do talk to you,
November 13, 2007 - 14:00 ET by bassndudeAnd if they do talk to you, they look down that long nose while they do. You can see the look in their eyes, "poor little underling..."
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Hey Pig... Where did you
November 13, 2007 - 13:52 ET by Clear thinkerHey Pig...
Where did you see us wishing you dead?
Read my original question... If these folks are so damned smart, why do they live there???
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
Silly Clear! Pigs cant
November 13, 2007 - 13:54 ET by bassndudeSilly Clear! Pigs cant read!
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
It was "A guy can hope,
November 13, 2007 - 17:17 ET by cleverpigIt was "A guy can hope, can't he..."
It's okay, I know you didn't mean it :)
Just thinking God may not be
November 13, 2007 - 14:05 ET by vrwc13Just thinking God may not be pleased with this, this, or this....
The Mission of the San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Committee is to educate the World, commemorate our heritage, celebrate our culture, and liberate our people.
And He might repeat this...
v
Come on Cleverpig.
November 13, 2007 - 14:50 ET by KarmaDo you honestly believe they wish you death? It seems to me they just wish SF was not part of the US and that may be a mutual wish.
I don't actually, I just
November 13, 2007 - 17:16 ET by cleverpigI don't actually, I just like to point out statements like "one can only hope" when they show up here, because when similar things show up on liberal sites the NewsBusters get all offended :)
I don't think anyone wants anyone else dead, and I think we all acknowledge that media portrayals of every part of the country, including the one where I live, are stereotypical and broadly brushed.
I didn't believe you
November 13, 2007 - 17:58 ET by KarmaI didn't believe you actually believed that. Just wanted to see you say it. I find these remarks, when obviously not in jest or over the top, offensive from any side of a discussion. And yes, the media needs a good house-cleanin'.
The People's Republic of Kalifornia
November 13, 2007 - 12:13 ET by KJ_sezCalifornia was a really nice place to live. That is, until the socialists locked themselves into safe voting districts, the teacher's union took over the educational system, and over 6 million foreign nationals invaded and weren't expelled. From my experience, the average Kalifornian Kamrade is an unthinking, over-feeling, indoctrinated dolt.
In my line of work, I see lots of young people (ages 9 to 16) on a regular basis. Most of them cannot read bove a rudimentary level (comic books are a challenge), can't construct a proper sentence, and can't even do basic math in their heads (and forget something as difficult as fractions). If you want to see the libtard definition of what they'd like the rest of the country to become, look no further. These kids are truly being indoctrinated, not educated (a result of putting the workers in charge of production - in this case, the teachers and their union) to the point they'll believe anything the government (their "teachers") tells them. Since "An Inconvenient Swindle" is required viewing in schools these days, and few here can think for themselves, is it any wonder that the SFC is polling such high numbers from the "faithful"?
Hell, we had Ronald Reagan as governor once; now we have "Benedict" Arnold Schwartzentraitor governing-by-proxy for the Kennedy family. That by itself should show the lack of critical thinking ability inherent in most "citizens" here.
Yay for me!
November 13, 2007 - 13:29 ET by cleverpigWhere's my hat??
Enjoy!
November 13, 2007 - 14:22 ET by Roger the ShrubberEnjoy!
LOL!
November 13, 2007 - 14:26 ET by Free StinkerLOL!
Who's Faith-Based Now?
November 13, 2007 - 13:35 ET by Agrarian-DecentralistGiven the weight of the evidence for climate change, and the number of scientists who agree that we have a serious problem versus the number that don't, it would appear that the people like Mr. Huston who take a contrary position are the ones who have a "faith-based" approach.
If you'd been here longer than two weeks A-D,
November 13, 2007 - 13:40 ET by RJI'm sure you wouldn't embarass yourself with such a know-nothing post. For a long time, this site has been active in specifically and scientifically challenging the false statistics, models and predictions of the AGWers, who are the truly "faith-based."
You still haven't ever
November 13, 2007 - 17:10 ET by cleverpigYou still haven't ever addressed the disparity in the weight of evidence for and against AGW, however.
Frankly, anyone who professes to believe that they know what is going to happen to the world in the future is putting their faith in something. Those of us who think global warming is a problem we can fix are putting our faith in the work of thousands of scientists, convened from around the globe, who have come to a general consensus that something needs to be done, despite the inherent complexities of the problem. Those of you who believe we are all okay are putting your faith in a small number of dissenters, mostly American meteorologists, from what I can tell, who disagree.
And just to preempt... we've all seen the list of 77 people who think I'm wrong, no need to paste it up here again!
Speaking for myself
November 13, 2007 - 17:26 ET by KarmaSpeaking for myself Cleverpig, I put my faith in no man or woman. I decide for myself based on the information presented. Can you explain the disparity in the weight of evidence given to global cooling in the past? That the earth was flat?
I've said it before, they
November 14, 2007 - 02:24 ET by cleverpigI've said it before, they might be wrong. But I trust in the scientific process to out the truth before it's over, and in the meantime I think it's silly to assume they will turn out to be wrong just because that's the easy answer that doesn't require taxes or lifestyle changes or anything else to cause us stress.
We'll know one way or another soon enough, until then I'll trust the many over the few.
}}---> Pay my taxes too piglet
November 14, 2007 - 02:29 ET by Cool ArrowIf we're just going to let this giant grifters paradise play itself out, would you do me a favor and pay for any resultant tax increases affecting my bottom line?
Can you guarantee me your religious belief won't cost me?
I assume nothing. The AGW's
November 14, 2007 - 11:30 ET by KarmaI assume nothing. The AGW's could be right but they're not even close to swaying me at this time. Beyond that, I'm still of the opinion that slightly warmer temperatures, AGW or natural, may be beneficial to humans. Un-do stress is not beneficial.
And by-the-way, I disagree with my fellow poster below, in my opinion you are not a smug little twit. A little gullible maybe, but not a smug little twit.
Happened before and will happen again
November 13, 2007 - 18:19 ET by IamTinmanThose who believe they can fix something first have to have something to fix. There simply is nothing to fix! Not that that will stop you from trying, to the ultimate detriment of those less fortunate, but there is incontrovertible proof that the cycle of climate change has occured in the past and a dead certainty that it will occur in the future. Read the story of King Canute and then go ahead and live as green as you want, but don't try and include me in your retinue, cause I ain't buying your load of bovine excrement.
As far as your scientists are concerned, those thousands of esteemed researchers all bought into Manns "Hockey Stick" model until a skeptic showed that regardless of the data fed into it it would always show the hockey stick. They will buy into anything as long as there is a government research grant involved with their name on it. Otherwise they will actually have to go work for a living. If you look into the makeup of the IPCC you will find few real scientists, mostly a batch of politicians.
Except, Miss Piggy...
November 13, 2007 - 19:01 ET by RJYour usage of "weight of evidence", can only be properly interpreted as giving noise and volume credibility over specifics.
It's been repeatedly shown that many of your "thousands of scientists, convened from around the globe have been politically appointed and/or are monetarily driven. Not only that but they refuse to debate, hiding behind the emotion (faith) driven mob-rule of "consensus."
And your line about "mostly American meteorologists", aside from being incorrect, reveals, once again, your own knee-jerk prejudice against things American.....
It's not prejudice, it is
November 14, 2007 - 02:28 ET by cleverpigIt's not prejudice, it is my experience with the people whose dissenting views have been brought here, to NewsBusters.
There's no reason to think that scientists for AGW are more likely to benefit monetarily than those against, except that you don't like what they're saying! I'm sure there are people on both sides who profit from their opinions, and when you get research money you get it no matter what your results turn out to be. They don't ask for their money back!
}}---> Get real piglet
November 14, 2007 - 02:33 ET by Cool ArrowIt's your honest belief the grant money is equally available to scientists regardless of their theses?
Face it, if it ain't feeding the movement, the cashier's drawer is closed.
Once again, Miss Piggy shows her credulity
November 14, 2007 - 16:21 ET by RJGrant money is "reviewed" for topic and expected outcome, Miss Piggy....and just as liberal professors get preference over conservatives, having the "right" study gets preference.
Also, are you seriously trying to say that you think it's not prejudice when you've made up your mind while ignoring facts? To claim that the AGW dissenters are predominately American meterologists displays either deliberate disingenuousness or plain ignorance. There have been many, many scientists whose AGW works have been discussed here. Take, for example, the prominent French scientist (and Socialist, FYI) Claude Allege. He was an early IPCC member and strong AGW advocate/supporter, but now calls it a hoax-for-money scheme.
Oh for goodness
November 15, 2007 - 01:25 ET by cleverpigOh for goodness sakes...
I'm not saying that every single dissenter is American. I could find online ONE professional association that specifically did NOT endorse global warming, and that was the American Meteorological Society. Perhaps it was overly prejudiced of me to assume that the American Meteorological Society would be composed mostly of meteorologists from America!
Yes, there are always politics involved in grants, but there's money on both sides of the issue. Money available to scientists.
}}---> Piggy
November 15, 2007 - 01:35 ET by Cool ArrowPlease tell me the UN does not hold a vested interest in the masses believing AGW is a real phenomenon.
Please tell me how the UN would benefit from the null hypothesis (that GW is not man induced).
Plant crops - not questions
Miss Piggy, you're using weasle words again.
November 15, 2007 - 13:32 ET by RJ"I'm not saying that every single dissenter is American."
Of course you didn't, but you DID say dissenters were "mostly American Meteorologists"....clearly suggesting that their opinions aren't as valid as the largely politically appointed pro-warmists of the IPCC. Your claim that AGW dissent is largely centered with American Meteorologists is clearly uninformed prejudice, Miss Piggy.
And, are you seriously attempting to claim that the amount of grant money available to dissenters is equal to that available to the pro-warmists?
Have you ever read this
November 15, 2007 - 02:06 ET by NL207Have you ever read this op-ed piece by Richard Lindzen discussing the current academic climate surrounding AGW? "Climate of Fear" does a wonderful job of explaining how the academic community really works. I see the mechanisms that Lindzen describes at work in my field on a daily basis. They are real and are how business is actually done. Your apparent ignorance of THIS reality is yet another reason I do not buy your degree claims.
Pig, you are a total
November 14, 2007 - 00:13 ET by NL207Pig, you are a total chowder head. You think that just because there are about 600 degreed scientists in this world who are making a nice living from government grant money directed at the study of 'Global Warming' and the 'harmful effects of global warming' that there is any kind of consensus this both predominantly human caused and is harmful. None of the doomsday scenarios this sorry lot have proposed, predicted or postulated has thus far come to pass. None of their 'science' that has predicted such has stood up to scrutiny. Much of their 'science' that has proclaimed a sudden, recent and significantly different climate than that observed over the last two millenia has not withstood scrutiny either.
There are about 20,000 other degreed scientists in this world with some credentials on the subject who disagree with this thesis. they don't get half the press the others have received and there has been a concerted effort to silence this group through manipulation of grants, publications and government funds. We have even heard cries of "wolf" from Dr. James Hansen, one of the chief purveyors of anthropogenic global warming alarm in scientific circles. This man claims he is being muzzled because of his AGW views. This report suggests just the opposite is the actual truth.
Careful, the 20,000 I
November 14, 2007 - 02:32 ET by cleverpigCareful, the 20,000 I assume refers to the Oregon petition. Those are not all scientists. They are people with bachelor's degrees, and you don't get to do science, at least in most fields, without a graduate degree. As a recall correctly, there are around 3,000 PhDs on that petition.
If you add up the memberships of professional organizations in the physical and planetary sciences who have issued statements endorsing the basic precepts of AGW, you get well over a million people, all professional scientists.
I think skeptics are getting press, and I think their voices are incredibly important. Everyone needs someone looking over their shoulder to keep them honest. It's just unfortunate that their mere presence, regardless of whether they turn out to be right or wrong, since we really don't know yet, is used as a justification for ignoring all of the other volumes of information coming out of mainstream climate study.
I know who signed
November 14, 2007 - 13:05 ET by NL207I know who signed the Oregon Petition. I received it about ten years ago when it was originally circulated. Several of my colleagues signed it. I did not. I reasoned that although my undergrad training is in physics, and I fully understand the theoretical discussion, my advanced degrees are in engineering. Another of my colleagues who does have a Phd in an appropriate field and is also a sceptic, did not sign it either, reasoning that it was not her primary field of study. I would conclude base on my own personal knowlege that the Oregon Petition is actually a short count of the total number of sceptics. This is something you certainly don't want to hear but is nevertheless, true.
Now, it is apparent to me just from your chatter that YOU do not have a scientific background. Therefore, it is unlikely that you are able to correctly judge who amongst the scientidfic community is capable of comprehending the AGW debate. A Bachelor of Science degree is sufficient if it is in the right field. Certainly any of Physics, Earth & Planetary Sciences or Geophysics are sufficient. According to your team, no one with less than a Phd in Climatology is allowed to speak on the subject. Then out of the other side of your collective mouths, your team rejects the credentials of Phd level meteorologists, whose degree work is exactly Climatology, which is itself a wholly contained subset of meteorology.
"you get well over a million people, all professional scientists" You ignore the number of scientists who are members of more than one society and get counted 2, 3, 4 or even more times by that measure. Just because an organization endorses "global warming" does not mean that 100% or even a simple majority of its members support the hypothesis. In fact, it is highly likely that such opinions are the work of a few individuals on the organization's policy committee and do not reflect rank-and-file views.
A case in point: The AMS "endorses" global warming. Look at the membership of its policy committee, all 8 of them. 6 of them are professional, political policy wonks. These people do little or no research. 2 of them are graduate students, people YOU disqualify because they lack an advanced degree. They actualy DO the research, and you can bet they have near zero input to the policy making. Its rank-and-file membership, all the weathermen whose credentials you are so fond of denigrating, in general reject this hypothesis: "human induced climate change is both significant and harmful". Nopw, search the AMS site. Show me a policy statement where AMS actually endorses the above hypothesis.
Do you suppose that everyone who works for the IPCC is a scientist? The IPCC reports something like 2,000 - 2,500 different individual contributors to its Assessment and Policymakers Summary documents. About 600 of these are actual scientists and perhaps a third of these are 'sceptics' to some degree. This can be gleaned rather quickly from the appendices of the IPCC AR4 available here.
The sceptics are getting press? Not anywhere near in relation to their numbers. They outnumber the AGW activists in the scientific community by 5 or 6 to one. The sceptics ARE however, systematically defeating the AGW alarmist's scientific arguments. Evidence of this abounds. One of the most glaring symptoms is the decline in the stature of "Science" once the top scientific journal published in America. The cloning scandal is not its only faux pas by a wide margin. They staked their editorial reputation on the AGWers. Another is the lackluster showing of AGW proponents at this debate. There is audio of the debate itself. Listen and learn.
Ouch. Pork rinds, anybody?
November 14, 2007 - 13:53 ET by Roger the ShrubberOuch.
Pork rinds, anybody? NL just made a fresh batch.
...and this little piggy
November 14, 2007 - 14:05 ET by vrwc13...and this little piggy went weeweewee all the way home.
v
“Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world.” - Thomas Carlyle
Everyone should be able to
November 14, 2007 - 16:48 ET by JasonCEveryone should be able to weigh in on the AGW debate, but just as we tend to defer to soldiers about "the reality" of Iraq, one would imagine we would take the insights of professional scientists with a bit more weight than the legions of people who have appropriated the issue either to prop it up as an excuse to push people around concerning lifestyle choices (driving more efficient cars, growing sorghum instead of eating beef, etc) and those who have appropriated it as evidence of a massive leftist scandal to socialize America. As long as we keep unabashedly framing it as an ideological question, we'll surely never have an honest discussion about its scientific merit (or lack thereof). To extend the war analogy, I think the reason that open, respectful discourse on Iraq is so rare is because the two noisiest factions can only discuss it in terms of "9/11!" of "Bush-Nazi-Oil-Imperialism". Worthless, disingenuous positions both.
Love the tagline V, who'd have thought we'd bicker so often when we have a common love for Thomas Carlyle's viciously unique prose?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Okay, I have a PhD in
November 15, 2007 - 01:11 ET by cleverpigOkay, I have a PhD in biology, although that is really beside the point. If you feel like being polite, you can call me Dr. Cleverpig from now on. I didn't spend 7 years in piggy graduate school...
Anyway, I don't think that people who don't have PhDs can't have an opinion about global warming. I just think that we should value the opinions of practicing physical scientists over the rest of us, including myself! If you have a problem with my counting methods, let's just use the AAAS, 10 million members. No matter how you cut it, I think you can still assume a large number of intelligent, well informed people who do science of one sort or another and didn't feel the need to contradict the statement made by the organization. As for the Oregon Petition, I think that once you realize it's a short list for skeptics, an important list for people with an axe to grind, an ethically dubious proposition for the scientifically minded... it becomes a count of nothing. Which was kind of my point.
I'm surprised that someone with an obvious familiarity with academia would dismiss the IPCC as involving directly "only 600" scientists. 600 scientists! I'd love to hear about the last project you worked on that involved 600 collaborating authors :) Yet that doesn't seem to carry much weight with you, and I honestly don't understand why.
Since you don't like my numbers, let's see some proof that skeptics outnumber AGW proponents by 5-6 to 1, please.
Cleverpig PHD
November 15, 2007 - 01:16 ET by Cool ArrowI don't know many Phd's but those I have met unanimously are disgusted with the politics involved in achieving that title.
Funny, they play the same groupthink game once they join the ranks.
What's that? conform or be cast out?
Plant crops - not questions
I did my research, I
November 15, 2007 - 01:19 ET by cleverpigI did my research, I presented it to my committee. I wrote a lot, I worked my ass off. I never experienced any political maneuvering. Maybe I was lucky.
I simply do not buy your
November 15, 2007 - 01:58 ET by NL207I simply do not buy your claim of a Phd. Where did you earn it? Mail Order U?
You don't think like a scientist, you don't talk like a scientists and it is painfully obvious you are totally clueless about the "science" behind climate. Your entire debate here on NB about the AGW topic has centered around score keeping how many scientists endorse AGW or remain publicly unconvinced. You haven't demonstrated one whit of critical thinking on your own. No scientist worth a dime would approach a technical problem where the basic physics is so well understood in that fashion. Real scientists ask questions. You treat this topic as a voting [political] problem. That is about as unscientific as it gets, short of rolling bones to decide the results.
So ... you are a scientist. Quick, no peeking. Tell me about heat transfer. It is central to the AGW topic and if you really are a biologist, you bloody well ought to have studied it as a part of your chemistry curriculum. Otherwise, shut your pie hole.
The central arguments of the Alarmist crowd are relatively easy to impeach. One of the first points to consider is the argument they make that man is entirely or nearly entirely responsible for the 0.6 degree K increase in mean near surface tyemperature of the Earth over the last century. Most of these charlatans claim this is nearly all due to man and his CO2 emissions. To accept this argument is the same as accepting that demonstrated natural variation in the earth's climate of the last 11,000 years suddenly and completely stopped. Indeed, Mann's bogus hockey stick claims exactly this: the earth's climate was perfectly homeostatic for the last 1000 years until suddenly the temperature rose 0.2 degree K per decade at the end of the 20th century. The absurdity of this hypothesis goes completely unchallenged in the media. This is a ridiculous assertion in the absence of strong proofs and it is also contrary to the geologic record.
You want me to name a colllaborative project with more than 600 authors? That is easy. The Aegis guided missle cruiser software systems. There were at least 1200 authors on that project. I can name several other projects in the civilian world that had upwards of 250 contributing authors.
I wasn't the only one to
November 15, 2007 - 08:31 ET by danboI wasn't the only one to question the PhD? I've only got a lowly, dumb masters.
My question is. What are the two primary errors in research? How does this relate to AGW?
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT