Hunger Games: Daily Kos Smears Conservatives as Cannibals With 'Donner Party Ethics'
While Chris Hayes complains about National Review misplacing Barack Obama in Paris, no one will expect MSNBC to question the Daily Kos comparing National Review and other conservatives with...the Donner Party, the snow-trapped pioneers who succumbed to cannibalism to survive in 1847.
The original subject was the “pragmatist” philosopher John Dewey, a left-wing hero. Writer Alex Budarin was upset that Tiffany Jones Miller wrote in National Review in 2009 that Dewey’s philosophy did not match the Founding Fathers. He not only disagreed, but felt compelled to smear "the Donner Party ethics of contemporary conservatism."
This was Budarin’s excerpt of Miller:
“In the founders’ view, by contrast, the natural rights of the individual correspond to a series of natural duties, the scope of which vary with the social relationship in question. Thus, while parents are obliged to promote the comprehensive good or welfare of their children, and to sacrifice their personal concerns accordingly, the obligations they owe unrelated adults are far more minimal — e.g. to refrain from interfering with their freedom, to honor contracts with them, and, at the outside, to promote their (mere) preservation. Beyond these duties, individuals are entitled to pursue their own concerns, a right that government, in turn, is obliged to respect. While individuals are free to assume a more robust obligation to unrelated others, as through a church, government itself is not the agent for advancing it.
From Dewey’s (and the progressives’) standpoint, so minimal an understanding of obligation allows men to pursue a degree of selfishness that is developmentally primitive and hence morally disgusting.”
To which Budarin brought out his broad black brush:
It is not only disgusting, it is also counterproductive and destructive to the fabric of any social group larger than the family. It is an understanding worthy of the Donner Party at the depth of its hunger, but not of a social group intent upon survival of the group as a group.
After arguing that the Founding Fathers were not really libertarians, but proto-statists, Budarin returned to repeating the Donner smear:
We Americans continue to see our government as responsible for recognizing our social equality and ensuring our equal rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. This is why U.S. administrations, Republican and Democratic, have sought over the years to institute policies and programs related to such things as public health, public education, civil rights, environmental protection and labor laws.
It hasn’t been a 100-year conspiracy of progressives to create a “socialist utopia.” It is the result of a progressive, pragmatic evolution of human relations. We live and work together for mutual aid in survival and happiness. We share common needs, and we learn from experience that working together with other people enhances our ability meet those needs. This requires coordination. It is out of this need for coordination that governments arise. The more effective a government is at coordinating and ensuring our mutual survival and happiness, the longer it will remain. Eventually we learn that the survival and happiness of the social group is best achieved by ensuring that the “mutual aid” we all seek is “mutually” enjoyed by all members of the group, not just a particular individual, class or sub-group, and that the “aid” we seek addresses all of the challenges we face in life, not just defense. As a result, the majority of us do not subscribe to the Donner Party ethics of contemporary conservatism.
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Comments
Budarin's Big Bag of Bullsh*t Theory
Submitted by drsamherman on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 5:42pm.
Out of one side of his face, he talks about left wing politics being a "pragmatic evolution" and returns to the usual manure-laden emotional utopian melodramatics. Out of the other side, he bleats on and on and about not wanting individual, class or sub-group to hog the aid. How in the hell can he reconcile Zero's crony capitalism, refusal to prosecute those who were deliberately intimidating voters, those who were sending guns illegally across the border and trying desperately to hide the fact and provide special rights to all forms of politically correct demographics? The guy has more faces than a college yearbook.
Keep talking you JackAz
Submitted by Calypso Jones on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 6:34pm.
We're taking it all in and we're ready for november.
The Donner Party controversy
Submitted by griv on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 8:53pm.
was recently proven via modern testing that NO CANNIBALISM OCCURRED. Why does it seem that the "News" people are the LAST to know.
Not that I really care all that much, but
Submitted by Jer on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 8:58pm.
link?
Jer
Instead of toying word games...
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 11:00pm.
...where we end up with a 60 post blog, just tell the truth.
You already know it to be false. So why act like this is the first you heard and toy with people?
Donner Party cannibalism -- it's still true
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is the first you heard. Blah. Blah. Blah.
Then why not do a 20 second search like I did and find out it truly is wrong and bring the proof instead of toying word games?
Know what to be false, Vet?
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 12:55am.
That the claims of truth about cannibalism are actually false, or that the claims are in fact true, or that the allegation that the claims are false has been proved true?
griv appeared to be rather emphatic that modern testing had proved there WAS NO CANNIBALISM by the Donner party. Thus my request for his source. That source tended to support his contention but was, in my opinion, inconclusive.
Now why don't you mind your own business and quit wasting my time and yours. By the way, the irony of your concern about word games is rich.
Jer
You find it strange, Jer, that an individuals choice of a ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 1:56am.
source would likely support his or her contention(s)?
Would you select sources that opine in direct opposition to the arguments you are making?
Or are your sources not only bona fide, but irreproachable, as well?
If that's the case, your comment reference sources - see below - must only apply to the "other" guys sources.
Unless, of course, your goal is to be inconsistent; like complaining when some people don't reply to you, and then grumping because someone does comment in your direction.
You funny.
MD
Take it up with griv, matthew....
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 2:11am.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. I had always assumed the reports of cannibalism to be true [and I am still inclined in that direction]. But griv was emphatic, referred to modern testing, and then cited a scholarly presentation. So I think his claim deserves to be given the facial credence that any such scientific evidence would warrant.
But this is NOT a big deal for commenters on a political blog to get hung up on. Don't you agree?
Jer
Why not? The back and forth is a ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 2:59am.
kick in the ass.
Besides, maybe griv was being more empathetic than emphatic.
MD
Look, I don't even know how to respond to Boudin...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 3:14am.
the brief exchange with Agnostic ONLY concerned his and my assessment of McCarthy. The narrowing of the disagreement gap I mentioned to Agnostic had NOTHING to do with Boudin. But he just can't resist inserting himself in order to rag me over some nonsensical issue or imagined infraction on my part. It's more of the same tiresome bullshit he's been slinging for years: I'm insincere. He don't fetch for libs. He loves jerkin' my chain. He ain't ever gonna consider me a reasonable lib.
He'll ask a question along the lines of how can I vote for a lying, America-hating muslim thug like Obama and then demand that I answer him. And accuse me of dodging him if I don't. I've tried to encourage respectful discussions with him, but with rare exceptions, it just doesn't work. On the cannibalism issue, I don't even know what the hell he's claiming or objecting to, and have no idea what his position is.
The bottom line is I have to deal with him the best I can on a case by case basis--because he's a permanent fixture popping up wherever I post.
Jer
I'm pretty sure Boudins position on cannibalism, would ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 3:40am.
be that he's against it. :o)
I believe that "reasonable" lib, is an "oxy" moron. :o) :o)
I also believe that a lefty at NBs is likely to find that hunting season is open year round.
With no bag limit. :oO
MD
Good grief.
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 6:07pm.
This is absolute bs
the brief exchange with Agnostic ONLY concerned his and my assessment of McCarthy. The narrowing of the disagreement gap I mentioned to Agnostic had NOTHING to do with Boudin.
Public board, I did not realize I had to receive prior approval to ask you anything, btw did you request permission to ask Griv a question? Didnt think so
But he just can't resist inserting himself in order to rag me over some nonsensical issue or imagined infraction on my part. It's more of the same tiresome bullshit he's been slinging for years
Whats tiresome is you inability to answer some rudimentary questions concerning topics and your ideology without getting all bent
He ain't ever gonna consider me a reasonable lib.
You got that backwards, I aint never knowed a reasonable lib
He'll ask a question along the lines of how can I vote for a lying, America-hating muslim thug like Obama and then demand that I answer him. And accuse me of dodging him if I don't.
Never asked you anything remotely like that.
On the cannibalism issue, I don't even know what the hell he's claiming or objecting to, and have no idea what his position is.
Didnt claim or object to anything, until your knee jerk disagreement with Griv. Not my fault you cant appreciate the info at hand, and this is not a single incident for you, it's constant.
The bottom line is I have to deal with him the best I can on a case by case basis--because he's a permanent fixture popping up wherever I post.
I read, when I see something that dont look right, I ask. If you capitulate, I work with you. If you call me names, complain about me to others, or reply with snotty comments, you get my best. I am a treat me like you wanna be treated kinda guy. But you know what I dont do Jer, is whine and complain everytime you leave me snarky remarks.
whatever.
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 7:40am.
I am getting tired of repeating things 16 times in 16 different ways and still not having it sink in.
Is it really that hard to do a 20 second google search? Is it? Really?
The guy says MODERN testing has....
Modern.... Hmmmm.
So he seems to be in possession of something recent.
Sure enough, google - donner party NEWS. Right there it is. Some researcher at some university examined the bones at a Donner party site and found no human bones there. Back in April I believe. And someone else said, wait, there were a bunch of Donner party sites. Not just this one. Plus, survivors said there was cannibalism, not like it was some kind of rumor.
But whatever, I see something that does not quite jam up with what I know, I do a google search. You, sitting on that bar stool, with no internet anywhere, simply reply "Huh? Huh? Huh?". Yeah, let's wait until griv comes back in a week or two to get an answer. Mmmmmkay?
Whatever, I already saw a disqus comment flagged so much it was not viewable until moderators approved it. Good luck.
Link
Submitted by griv on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 9:06pm.
One of many. They do have this thing called google. ;)
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/no_evidence_donner_party_cannibal...
I always thought the evidence were
Submitted by Boudin on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 9:24pm.
Confessions? Hmm, good.
Me too Boudin
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 9:35pm.
I can't imagine anyone confessing to cannibalism unless they actually did it.
Jer aint convinced
Submitted by Boudin on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 9:44pm.
But being kin to the Kos kids, guess we aint surprised.
The survivors fiercely denied allegations of cannibalism and one man even filed a defamation suit immediately upon reaching Sutter’s Fort near Sacramento. Although the court ruled in his favor,
Or as the other commenter said:
If you choose to believe people who say cannibalism occurred over survivors that said it did not, it seems to be a matter of choice. There is no way to know and you can choose to dispute the power analysis by these researchers but there is no better method at this time.
Since I haven't visited Kos for more than a total of fifteen
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 2:17am.
minutes in the past two years, I'm hardly kin to the Kos kids. Somehow, though, you impress me as one who would hang out at the fringe right-wing propaganda sites. Maybe I'm wrong. Hope so.
Jer
So now you're siding with the "no cannibalism" view?
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 2:22am.
Make up your mind. It's hard to have a discussion with someone who is all over the map.
Jer
I dont believe I expressed an opinion
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 7:55am.
Other then I thought they had confessed to it, Griv's post cleared that up. I simply pointed out the opinions of others.
I dont believe I expressed an opinion
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 9:10am.
Other then I thought they had confessed to it, Griv's post cleared that up. I simply pointed out the opinions of others.
Really? google, eh? I did not know that.
Submitted by Jer on Mon, 07/09/2012 - 9:29pm.
Anyway, interesting comment following that article:
the 84 members of the Donner Party, trapped by a Sierra Nevada snowstorm on their way to California, did not resort to cannibalism, according to a new analysis of bones found at their Alder Creek campsite.
OK, that's NOT what the study says, but it is what some of the bone scientists reportedly concluded, at least until they retracted it April 20 2010 within days of setting the falsehoods into motion. The bottom line is that the analysis of some bones from a single fire pit in ONE of the presumed Donner camps revealed only animal bones. That's it. No conclusions about the cannibalism in general -- particularly whether or not it occurred -- can be drawn from the bone analysis. The irresponsible and inaccurate press release has been withdrawn from the AU university web site and a corrected release added. But the damage has been done. The inaccurate headlines and stories will persist on the web for years. The documentary evidence of cannibalism of the last 160 years, including many, many contemporaneity accounts, is overwhelming. No physical evidence has yet been found. But that's not a very sexy headline, so the AU folks spiced it up a bit with some fantasy and sloppy research. If the authors of the current stories had bothered to actually interview people who have studied the Donner tragedy for decades, the misinformation could have been nipped in the bud. Now it's gone around the world at the speed of light before the truth has gotten its boots on, to paraphrase the proverb.
[However, there was a rebuttal to that comment as well.]
In any event, I think it may be premature to pronounce all claims of cannibalism have been conclusively disproved.
Jer
Liberal behavior, from a real cannibal, Alfred E. Packer
Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 07/10/2012 - 12:52pm.
From all appearances, he had killed the others, survived off their meat, and enriched himself with their assets.
You Didn't Build That.