Over at Get Religion, Mollie Z. Hemingway lamented how reporters are trying to use the murder of late-term abortionist George Tiller at church to challenge "popular perceptions" that abortionists can’t be a "faithful member of the Lutheran church" and love Jesus. Take this vomit-inducing introduction to a Religion News Service article by Lindsay Perna and Tiffany Stanley:
Dr. George Tiller's murder last Sunday morning in the lobby of his Lutheran church counters the secular image of a late-term abortion provider, pinning him more as a churchgoing "martyr" than a godless murderer.
Shot and killed while passing out bulletins in the lobby of his Wichita, Kan., church as his wife sat in the choir, Tiller is already challenging popular perceptions of both abortion providers and the abortion-rights movement.
"It shows a dimension of the movement that a lot of people don't know about," said the Rev. Carlton Veazey, president of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. "This man was castigated for what he did -- but he was a faithful member of the Lutheran church and that gives a different view of him and his work."
Veazey sees the face of Tiller as more of "a martyr in the same sense that Dr. [Martin Luther] King was."
Mollie’s point was that while Tiller’s church was part of the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, he’d been excommunicated by a more traditional Lutheran church:
What none of these stories have explained is that Tiller had previously been excommunicated by a Lutheran congregation on account of his lack of repentance about and refusal to stop his occupation. That Lutheran congregation was a member of my church body, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Excommunication doesn’t happen terribly frequently in this day and age but it’s not unheard of. I don’t know any of the specifics about his past congregation or what led to the discipline and anticipated learning more about it when it was covered by the mainstream media. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened.
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.
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The Liberal Press
June 8, 2009 - 10:46 ET by merlin61Comparing this baby killer to Martin Luther King
is disgusting. He is not a martyr and there is no
comparison. These so-called journalists are
exaggerating this man's credentials for politically
correct, reasons. There is no excuse for aborting
full term or almost full term babies. Its murder,
its murder, its murder.
St. Tiller Of The Holy Forceps
June 8, 2009 - 10:56 ET by SickofLibsSince Lutherans consider all baptized followers to be saints, beatification will be inevitable.
A faithfull what?
June 8, 2009 - 10:58 ET by CobraMan"This man was castigated for what he did -- but he was a faithful member of the Lutheran church and that gives a different view of him and his work."
If he was a faithful member of a Lutheran Church, then how did he forget the teachings found in Psalms?
"Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. "
Who will be speaking at the gate for Mr. Tiller? I guarantee you it won't be the children he murdered, also known as "his work."
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court
Tiller ???
June 8, 2009 - 11:10 ET by LionKingPerhap Tiller was a martyr for his cause -- KILLING BABIES!!!
His cause is hardly as noble as MLK and I find it disgusting to be compared to him.
btw, what kind of church doctrine endorses the murder of children? Just wondering.
I thought Christians can
June 8, 2009 - 11:13 ET by balboaI thought Christians can still be good-standing members of a church in spite of their faults?
Not if they kill children
June 8, 2009 - 11:14 ET by CobraManNot if they kill innocent children. There's no "good standing" for murderers.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court
bal ... not true
June 8, 2009 - 11:17 ET by LionKingIn Hebrews 10 there is a very stearn warning about willful sin. Saints and sinners are called to repentenance, which means to turn away from the sin. If a saint (believer) commits a sin out of weakness, they are supposed to learn and repent -- Mr. Tiller showed no signs of repenting.
the definition of misconception
June 8, 2009 - 15:53 ET by lotr"Faults"? The intentional killing of human beings in utero is not a "fault" (i.e., "gosh, I just can't help myself -- my hands, the steel scissors, the high-powered vacuum nozzle -- I tried going to AA, Abortionists Anonymous, but I can't help that I was born an Abortionist -- woe is me!")
It's called mortal sin, and the only cure is repentance and penance, not showing up once a week at a church for approval from men.
"Let's wrap him up, alright?" -- Keith Olbermann
You must have missed this
June 8, 2009 - 11:20 ET by CobraManBal, you must have missed this: "What none of these stories have explained is that Tiller had previously been excommunicated by a Lutheran congregation on account of his lack of repentance about and refusal to stop his occupation."
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court
You liberals are so filled
June 8, 2009 - 13:01 ET by gmaniac1You liberals are so filled with contempt against anything Christian that you'll even try to make soundbites out of the Bible. If you actually read the Bible, you'd never have to ask such an absurd question in the first place.
When the people fear the government it's called tyranny, when the government fears the people it's called liberty!
I asked because when we were
June 8, 2009 - 13:24 ET by balboaI asked because when we were talking about Prejean and her racy photos (and I know that abortion and photos are not the same thing), it was said that there was no hypocrisy, no problems because all Christians have faults, none are perfect. But again there's a difference between Prejean and Tiller's medical practice.
Bal, Prejean repented of those photos... she admitted they were
June 8, 2009 - 13:43 ET by pahuberwrong. She isn't planning another photo shoot.
Tiller never repented and he continued on with what he was doing.
You know what, Balboa? I've told you this at least twice now.
June 8, 2009 - 23:24 ET by pahuberAre you somehow learning disabled or have a problem with memory?
I thought Christians can
June 8, 2009 - 14:32 ET by Dan The Man 2I thought Christians can still be good-standing members of a church in spite of their faults?
One has to be a Christian and in a Christian church to be of good standing. The church Tiller belonged to or any church he belonged to was apostate if they did not perform mandated church discipline on him. This starts with a plea for him to change his ways and ends with expulsion from teh church body.
Now anyone can attend church, at least in SBC they can, but to belong to the church they must adhere to its creed, theology and doctrine. And in any Bible believing church urding babies if not in the theology or doctrine. In fact it is one of those activities that demands church discipline.
So Tiller being a member of the church in good standing means the church was apostate. The Lutheran faith has split and most of them are gone astray. The Moussuri synod is the only one I know of that has not. Of course I may be wrong.
Tim.. from introductions to closing arguments, it's the same
June 8, 2009 - 11:13 ET by Gary HallTim, indeed .. from "vomit-inducing introductions" to closing arguments, it's the same bottom line:
The LATimes, yesterday, which is covering their side of the story 24/7 closed their piece on the funeral of Teller with this:
The LA Times even shares a picture of his casket with the readers.
Funeral services for the terrorist hate slaying of US Army Pvt. William Long were held this morning. While the LA Times today is still dishing out another angle on the story of Tiller's killer - "there's going to be more" - just can't wait to see the coverage of Long's funeral, and the follow up investigative articles (with numerous staff writers all working feverishly together) on what else Long's murderer had planned.
(;~/gary
If Tiller is "the best of
June 8, 2009 - 14:18 ET by SickofLibsIf Tiller is "the best of Kansas", Kansas is in deep sh*t.
Kansas has been delivered.
June 8, 2009 - 15:16 ET by sevenBTK is still there and locked up. he can't get a hold of someone to write hsi "compelling story".
we all knew this was coming, but regardless...
June 8, 2009 - 11:14 ET by lotrMartyr my ass.
1. Tiller was worth, like, how many $$ millions by the time of his death? "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins" -- Matt. 26:15
2. He did not die in the virtuous defense of Life, Faith, or Charity (agape love), but rather the opposite. If one wants to see what true martyrdom is, I recommend the canonized martyrs. One good example from modern times is Maximilian Kolbe. There's a true martyr.
"Let's wrap him up, alright?" -- Keith Olbermann
Most Mafia bosses were
June 8, 2009 - 11:15 ET by flyingmonkeyMost Mafia bosses were devout Catholics who regularly attended church. Does this revelation about Tiller serve to soften their images also? There is nobody more despicable than a person who uses religion to cultivate his image except, maybe, a minister (Rev. Carlton Veazey), who would twist the meaning of the Bible to fit a political agenda and garner congregants.
Just one more reason to be glad he's gone.
Hold on there, airborne one
June 8, 2009 - 11:57 ET by danebramageThat's a poor way of putting it, monkey. The only thing they were devoted to was keeping up appearances. They were CINO's, just like 90% or more of so-called Catholics in America today.
The word "devout" has little meaning right now. In a time when Catholics accepted the full deposit of faith, it meant something. But to "devotedly" attend Mass while interiorly denying core doctrines of the faith is a manifest offense against God and renders such devotion worthless.
You Said It Better db.
June 8, 2009 - 12:18 ET by flyingmonkeyThat was the point I was trying to make.
I got your point and a good
June 8, 2009 - 13:17 ET by gmaniac1I got your point and a good one at that. Let's take it one step further and use the two race baiting liberal reverends as an example. Sharpton and Jackson both are "Christians" but one continually lives off of a lie (i.e. Tawana Brawley false rape allegations) and the other had an illegitimate child out of wedlock. Hmmm, are they too martyrs? Yes, for the liberal socialist cause but not for Christianity.
When the people fear the government it's called tyranny, when the government fears the people it's called liberty!
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, not Tiller the Killer
June 8, 2009 - 11:18 ET by RiiightIs the faithful Lutheran martyr.
Tiller was not a faithful Lutheran, he had clearly turned his back on his baptism by his continuing to be a serial killer.
ELCA is Lutheran in name only on the national level, and is not a Christian denomination, let alone Lutheran (though there are of course Lutheran Christians in it, though more and more are leaving or getting ready to leave).
Lutherans believe in the Bible, the three ecumenical creeds, and the Book of Concord as an accurate summary of those teachings in the Bible which that collection of documents address.
Elca disagrees with all of those, as obviously, did Tiller the Killer.
BTK
June 8, 2009 - 12:21 ET by sevenBTK also a Lutheran in Wichita. I won't indict Lutherans over this.
Hitler was never asked to leave the Romish church. There is a pattern of evil hiding behind religion.
Chruches draw people like tiller that donate.
It is the flesh of man that
June 8, 2009 - 13:19 ET by gmaniac1It is the flesh of man that is the problem not the religious principles themselves. That's like blaming the gun and not the person or shooting someone.
When the people fear the government it's called tyranny, when the government fears the people it's called liberty!
Moral Relativism
June 8, 2009 - 11:22 ET by Anneke9This is a perfect example of the moral relativism that has crept into Christian churches. Episcopal Priest Katherine Ragsdale even claims that abortion is a "blessing" (http://www.theird.or...).
_______________________
Camouflage conservative in Baghdad-by-the-Bay
Now that Tiller the Killer is hanging out with Mengele in Hell
June 8, 2009 - 11:45 ET by R D Helm...I have to really wonder about the sort of "Christian" who would attend the same "church" as Tiller did.
That so-called "church" must be a really cold and dark place.
-Dave
Compare the two.
June 8, 2009 - 13:12 ET by IamTinmanOne a potentially disturbed individual who wanted to stop a mass murderer the only way he felt he could.
The other a cold blooded serial killer for hire, accountable for tens of thousands of deaths.
Both of them wrong, but who do you sympathize with?
Neither, they both were
June 8, 2009 - 13:21 ET by gmaniac1Neither, they both were wrong but one took innocent lives for money, the other took the law into his own hands.
When the people fear the government it's called tyranny, when the government fears the people it's called liberty!
I believe there's precedent
June 8, 2009 - 13:39 ET by IamTinmanI believe there's precedent in the law for allowing the commission of a lesser crime in order to prevent an even more heinous one.
gmaniac1, Just whose "hands" do you think the law is in?
June 8, 2009 - 13:45 ET by R D HelmThe government's?
Let's hope not.
Justice, which I define as when people get what they deserve, does not always come from a court of law.
-Dave
MLK and George Tiller comparison
June 8, 2009 - 13:35 ET by metaphorsbwithuI checked the most recent statistics and noticed that, as of 2007, African-American/Black membership made up 1.12% of total membership.
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Research-and-Evaluation/Facinating-ELCA-Facts/Baptized-Membership.aspx
I wonder what they think of the the MLK- GT comparison?
With a media so obsessed with things like sex and race (when it comes to conservatives), I'm surprised no one thought to mention all those white faces in the congregation and wonder aloud about that question and the relevance of that comparison.
metaphorsbwithu
Wrong on both counts
June 8, 2009 - 14:26 ET by Ozark_SunshineTiller was not a Christian and neither was the church he attended. That's the trouble with some Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist and other churches. They no longer follow the word of God. They allow female pastors, in contrast to God's word. They accept baby killers, prostitutes, homosexuals and all who refuse to turn from sin. They don't guide them to God's word that says when you accept Christ, "Go and sin no more." They believe the fallacy of "Once Saved, Always Saved" or that the Bible is not the inerrent word of God. God has a special place to send those who participate in those lifestyles and those who mislead them as "Pastors". Christ will deny them before God." So to call Tiller a martyr is like calling Bill Clinton a saint, they are both lies and you'd have to be stupid to make that reach.
They believe the fallacy of
June 8, 2009 - 14:40 ET by Dan The Man 2They believe the fallacy of "Once Saved, Always Saved"
This is the truth as you can never lose your salvation once given to you. Salvation is not earned but a gift. Now there may be a question if one ever recieved salvation as God knows your heart and gives his gifts accordingly. God also does not make mistakes so he would not give us salvation only to take it away.
In the Bible there is only one thing preventing one from salvation and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit or turning it away.
15 examples.
June 8, 2009 - 15:21 ET by sevenAdam and Eve had eternal life until they sinned. There are 14 more stories of people in the bible that had salvation and lsot it. Do you know the bible well enough to name let's say 3-4 more examples?
The doctrine of eternal security is alive and well in works based salvation circles.
How could the "spirit of the Lord leave King Saul"?
Can you tell us how many people he slaughtered out of anger after the spirit left him? I guess the spirit can't leave a man if it was never there.
Seven, this is my last post
June 8, 2009 - 16:13 ET by Dan The Man 2Seven, this is my last post on this because they frown upon discussing theology. Adam and Eve sinned and God withdrew the privilige of the Garden with teh tree of life. It does not say or mean that they lost salvation or forsoke God. Sin is not losing salvation.
You may be confusing language with what happened to these people. If Adam and Eve lost their salvation then are they in heaven. Paul talks extensively on how one is given salvation. The Bible says we are in the book of life from the beginning, so we are saved or we are not. God does not make mistakes.
Thats all and Im out of this conversation as I have already evangelized too much on this blog.
You're ok DTM! You are also correct about what you said.
June 8, 2009 - 23:32 ET by pahuber'cept where you thought you 'evangelized too much' ... that was not correct.
Go ahead and name them, seven. I know of no one that loses
June 8, 2009 - 23:30 ET by pahubersalvation once obtained. That is NOT scriptural.
What Tiller's
June 8, 2009 - 19:08 ET by GrannyGrump42What Tiller's church participation proves is the atheist point that a lot of self-professed Christians are capable of abominable evil.
The ELCA actually condones abortion
June 8, 2009 - 20:13 ET by TheHistorianAs a recent ex-member of the ELCA (moved to Missouri Synod) I went to the elca.org site to review their teaching. What I found was a commentary which allows anyone to have any belief that they want. As an example, here is a cut from their statement (bold is mine):
The language used in discussing abortion should ignore neither the
value of unborn life nor the value of the woman and her other relationships. It should
neither obscure the moral seriousness of the decision faced by the woman nor
hide the moral value of the newly conceived life. Nor is it helpful to use the
language of ‘rights’ in absolute ways that imply that no other significant moral
claims intrude. A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be
born, nordoes a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy.
The statement appears to be a total mush of "anything you want to believe, you can believe" mostly trying to preach moral relativism. Martin Luther is probably retching in Heaven.
Most lay Lutherans are reasonable people. ELCA members need to take back control from their loony leaders (this summer's convention could be a good start as you get to vote on your sexuality policy again after your bishops turned it on its ear last year). Or do as I have done, and go to the Missouri Synod. BTW, the LCMS policy on abortion is provided at http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2121
"What experience and history teach is
this - that people and governments never have learned anything from history,
or acted on principles deduced from it."
G. W. F. Hegel
Yes, Historian... The ELCA is hopelessly lost and rotten to the
June 8, 2009 - 23:36 ET by pahubercore. They have a college here in MN Gustavus Adolphus that is equally disturbing and liberal like the UCC's (United Church of 'Christ'Seminary in the TC's (United Seminary).
Satan is so proud.
One big difference between
June 8, 2009 - 21:05 ET by m4ster chiefOne big difference between MLK and Killer Tiller is that Dr. King, and all he did and stood for, could be filmed and shown on nationwide television without making ladies faint and grown men puke.
"Allies to Land at Normandy Tomorrow!" New York Times headline; June 5, 1945
(h/t M. Malkin)
How is it that Liberals
June 9, 2009 - 01:19 ET by RR GOPHow is it that Liberals always want to blame common criminals' actions on "Society" but in this case they want to blame Conservatives and certain individuals who they feel had publicly condemned Dr. Tiller?
Are these Libtards going to protest and fight for Dr. Tiller's murderer to be spared as they did when "Tookie" was to be executed for murdering several people?
Perhaps we as a society are responsible for not reaching a consensus on the abortion issue?
I can play the blame game, too. I can blame the mass media for not graphically showing what an abortion (late term ones especially) entails. They make it sound like some kind of life-threatening tumor is being excised and nothing else.
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 61% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory (yep...approval for Congress now at 39%...do you believe that!?).
And the irony
June 9, 2009 - 01:28 ET by general companyIs this is the society the liberals have created. They refuse to preach or practice self discipline, self responsibility. They shun authority, and religion, and try to force their failing on others?
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg