ABC’s The View featured the liberal media’s favorite Republican, Meghan McCain, as a fill-in host for Elizabeth Hasselbeck on Thursday, with an emphasis on how the 2008 GOP nominee’s daughter would repeat all her criticisms of "creepy" Karl Rove. They also had a discussion about U.S. government and torture. Joy Behar asserted torture first originated under George W. Bush:
This country has never done that before, until the Bush Administration and 9/11, obviously. That’s what they’re saying, that we've never done it before. It's interesting what's going on. It's like the left of the country wants law and order. Let's prosecute them, get it all out there. The right wing all of a sudden is laissez-faire, live and let live. And the middle is like why do we have to keep watching Cheney and Rove? That's real torture.
Behar clearly is not in line with others on the left, who assert that torture is a chronic U.S. government policy, even during the presidency of her hero Bill Clinton. This little exchange was also an outbreak of Joy’s inventive streak:
MEGHAN McCAIN: I think it's what separates us from the terrorists. We can't act like animals.
BEHAR: Animals don't torture each other.
No, they eat each other.
Thursday’s program began as promoted, with a discussion of how Meghan McCain thought Karl Rove was "creepy" to follow her utterances on the social-networking site Twitter, and her disappointment that the Democrats are running ads touting Rove and Dick Cheney and Newt Gingrich as the faces of the Republican Party:
McCAIN: It's hard for people like me that really want new energy and new blood. It’s very unprecedented for someone like Karl Rove or Dick Cheney to be criticizing the president. Former vice president, and Karl Rove, and my big criticism is ‘You had your eight years. Go away.’ [An interesting thought, since Daddy’s been in the Congress since 1983, before she was born.]
SHERRI SHEPHERD: Do they feel like by doing something as hip as tweeting that you're going to fool young people?
McCAIN: I mean, I don't understand -- 81 percent of people under 30 consider themselves a Democrat. So I just don't understand how Karl Rove Twittering at all is going to –
BEHAR: Say that again. How many?
McCAIN: Eighty-one percent. It's a sad, sad stat. I hope to be able to help change that and I do believe the Republican Party has a lot of potential. But I don’t think Karl Rove is going to be the catalyst for that.
But is that "sad stat" real? If that statistic sounds too high, you may be right. Last year, the Pew Research Center survey on party identification of people aged 18-29 was only 58 percent Democratic, which is depressing enough: "In surveys conducted between October 2007 and March 2008, 58% of voters under age 30 identified or leaned toward the Democratic Party, compared with 33% who identified or leaned toward the GOP."
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
→ Behar
April 23, 2009 - 15:11 ET by Cool ArrowNice how she feeeels Clinton's hands are clean becauyse he turned suspects over to foreign governments for real torture.
Behar is beggarly stupid.
Obama - A whole new dementian
Atomic bombs and Waco not torture??
April 23, 2009 - 19:53 ET by reelman46Only the fantasyland dufus liberal (secular socialist) could be so blind to history and reality. The cult of allah terrorists behead innocents for the camera while the lib-media cry about waterboarding a few top thugs that would kill millions if they had their wish.
This is the same crowd that stood by while innocent children burned to death at Waco and serial gifted liar Klinton claimed Reno made all those decisions. Where was the lib-media rage then?
This is all hate-Bush/Cheneyites to find a way to soil the 7 years of protection from another attack. Modern liberalism is a mental disorder as Michael Savage said years ago. Now we know what he meant...and there is lots more of this hateful distractive baloney coming to mask the gov-meant grabs ALL approved by Obama.
The Obama administration has a DHS gal that is so ignorant she says the Canadian border allowed 9-11 hijackers to get here. How do you top that?
Liberals just shock you over and over so you soon realize there are no ethical or moral or political boundaries. None. Crazy is like like. Mark it now and mark it well. It has only begun.
Doug Schexnayder, Ph.D. (theconservativecrawfish)
Great analogy
April 23, 2009 - 20:25 ET by general companyJust wanted to add that this woman needs to go, today.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
joy behar
April 24, 2009 - 12:58 ET by grumpyoldbSure Americans employed torture before Bush..... She was on the air broadcasting wasn't she.... That's torture in my book...
→ Again Stupid Behar
April 23, 2009 - 15:14 ET by Cool ArrowAnimals don't torture?
She's never seen a cat play with a mouse for a half hour before leaving it's lifeless, uneaten, carcass on a doorstep?
Obama - A whole new dementian
Or a Killer whale eat a seal.
April 23, 2009 - 15:34 ET by Tjexciteafter tossing it around and flinging it in the air.
My thoughts also. Nuke
April 23, 2009 - 15:35 ET by Dan The Man 2My thoughts also.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
McCAIN: I mean, I don't
April 23, 2009 - 15:19 ET by Chris NormanMcCAIN: I mean, I don't understand -- 81 percent of people under 30 consider themselves a Democrat" .
Right, Ms. McCain, you really don't understand. However, with what you do know and the cooked up "facts" you reference, you could be a good little liberal Democrat with a future on MSNBC.
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Torture this
April 23, 2009 - 15:20 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsFirst of all, waterboarding (which our special forces guys undergo), bugs in your cell, making you stay up past your bedtime etc. is NOT torture. Second, our "Greatest Generation" (whom I have no truck with) used some pretty harsh methods to get info from the enemy, including a bullet to the head if you didn't fess up. Yes, answer the question or your brains were blown out and the question gets asked of the next guy. War is hell, they started it, get over it.
D
Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.
Waterboarding is torture
April 23, 2009 - 16:39 ET by Smoking Hot"For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
-Article 1 of the UN Convention Against Torture, signed by President Reagan in 1988.
I don't know what members of the greatest generation you are referring to, but I have read what these guys have to say.
Have you read the UN
April 23, 2009 - 16:56 ET by Dan The Man 2Have you read the UN Convention concerning Spies and Sabatuers? It basically says the country they offended may depose them as they wish. And this treaty was not ratified so it is null and void. I am sure any one of the countries whose signature is on this treaty would have done as we have.
We have not tortured any of these prisoners.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Not ratified?
April 24, 2009 - 05:59 ET by Smoking HotIt was signed by President Reagan and ratified by the Senate, not in the same year mind you, but done all the same. Treaties have the force of law in this country.
Read the OLC memo's. We now know exactly what waterboarding is.
April 24, 2009 - 06:17 ET by JWFOnce the cloth is saturated and completely covers tbe mouth and nose, air now is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence ofthe cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces tbe perception of "suffocation and incipient panic," i.e.,the perception of drowning. tbeindividual does not breathe any wa.ter into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty four inches. After this speriod, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths. The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. (1)
Tell us all how this constitutes extreme pain or extreme suffering. That is toruture as defined in the international treaties.
You listed the definition from the Convention. Back it up.
These same techniques, with the exception of the insect in the cramped confmed space, have been used and continue to be used on some members of our miiitary personnel during their SERE training. (1)
I am sick to death of these lies. We did not torture our own people because it is against the law to do so. WE DID NOT TORTURE ANYONE ELSE as it was against the law to do so.
The memo's listed exactly what was done. Knock it off.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
(1) http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf
Controlled drowning is not extreme pain or suffering?
April 24, 2009 - 06:28 ET by Smoking HotAre you serious? Do you think people enjoy drowning? Have you ever heard someone say "I'm going to go play in the rip tide" like they might say "I'm heading out for a round of golf"? It is extreme pain and suffering. It is torture. Here, watch a video from someone with firsthand exposure to the technique.
you are getting on my last nerve.
April 24, 2009 - 07:11 ET by JWFWho said waterboarding was enjoyable? Do you think people enjoy drowning? Did I or anyone else render a legal opinion that said it was enjoyable?
Read the memo. Read the memo. Read the frelling memo.
air now is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence ofthe cloth. (1)
SLIGHTLY RESTRICTED. 20 to 40 seconds. You can hold your breath for 40 seconds for heavens sake. And they do not have to hold their breath because breathing is only slightly restricted.
I will not watch your video as any videos of this procedure are TOP SECRET. Only the memo's have been released.
The waterboard, which inflicts no pain. oractual harm whatsoever, does not, in our view inflict "severe pain or suffering." (1)
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
(1) http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf
Read (past tense) the memo
April 24, 2009 - 08:37 ET by Smoking HotConsider the source. Consider the source. Consider the source.
Of course a lawyer writing to justify torture will use language to minimize the barbarism inherent to the act. Now who are you going to believe? The lawyer, or your lying eyes? Do you think "see no evil" is a reasonable policy to have with regard to torture? I don't. Not in this country.
If I could direct you to a video of American agents waterboarding someone other than Christopher Hitchens, I would. Thing is, those tapes have probably all been destroyed. Ever wonder why they'd want to destroy evidence of an interrogation if everything was on the up and up, perfectly legal, and not in any way against the law?
What is wrong with you? Someone give this idiot a clue.
April 24, 2009 - 10:16 ET by JWFIt is not about lawyers opinions.
Waterboarding is clearly spelled out in the memo. The lawyers are only issuing an opinion on what is now a declassified procedure. You read what I copied here. It is restricted breathing for 20 to 40 seconds.
Are you a troll?
Smoking troll: Oh I respect you JWF. You are a honorable man. You honestly read those memo's. You honestly posted from those memo's. BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS FULL OF LIARS. So I am going to move the goalpost and now expect you to prove to me that the government is not full of liars. Now prove to me the governement did not fake the moon landings and point out to me where the aliens are hidden.
Excuse me for not realising you were a disingenuous idiot. Another grassy knoll troll. The government is lying to me. And following me with black helicopters.
wikidumbass.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
an Eternal Champion after many exhausting trials and tribulations in the endless war between Law and Chaos
The memo describes torture
April 24, 2009 - 10:25 ET by Smoking HotIt's that simple.
Not a troll. Not an idiot either. Holding an opinion contrary to your own makes me neither.
Yes. Yes you are an idiot. And a troll.
April 24, 2009 - 22:39 ET by JWFTorture is legally defined in the U.S and International Treaties.
Now waterboarding is legally defined.
You are not holding a contrary opinion. You are lying and I am schooling you in the truth. You will not listen to the truth, that makes you an idiot.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
an Eternal Champion after many exhausting trials and tribulations in the endless war between Law and Chaos
Why destroy the tapes?
April 24, 2009 - 10:14 ET by Agnostic"Ever wonder why they'd want to destroy evidence of an interrogation if everything was on the up and up, perfectly legal, and not in any way against the law?"
I did wonder for about 2 minutes then I was reminded of the statements made by Congressment about our soldiers in Haditha, the convection in the press and trials were no real proof has ever been released and all but one soldier has been cleared and even the lone remaing soldier was found innocent of wrong-doing but was brought back in by the zealousness of the courts.
In a court system dominated by liberals you can easily be found guilty or at least raked over the coals until your life is ruined over the assumptions made by people that are working with different agendas than our military. Some agendas are personal, political or even moral but personal conviction does not make you right.
I respect your opinion and your willingness to debate that opinion but I don't feel you are correct but I'm glad there are people out there like you to make sure things don't go too far.
A person may be won over with logic and reason but the masses must be bought with spectacle and platitudes. - 2008 Elections
Here's to mutual respect.
April 24, 2009 - 10:27 ET by Smoking Hotn/t
Absolutely. I would like to
April 24, 2009 - 11:30 ET by AgnosticAbsolutely. I would like to add however that while you never want to lower yourself to the level of your enemies you must be truly aware of what your enemy is willing to do.
"al Qaeda invited to lunch families they wanted to convert to their way of thinking. In each instance, the family had a boy, he said, who was about 11 years old. As LT David Wallach interpreted the man’s words, I saw Wallach go blank and silent. He stopped interpreting for a moment. I asked Wallach, “What did he say?” Wallach said that at these luncheons, the families were sat down to eat. And then their boy was brought in with his mouth stuffed. The boy had been baked. Al Qaeda served the boy to his family.
"
A person may be won over with logic and reason but the masses must be bought with spectacle and platitudes. - 2008 Elections
~Thank you, Agnostic
April 24, 2009 - 12:50 ET by choselife3xI would like to take this opportunity to say that I reiterate all my former statements regarding these evil, sick, twisted F@#%$.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Winning against evil
April 25, 2009 - 02:40 ET by AgnosticI claim no real applicable experience in strategy but it seems to me there is only two ways to defend yourself against people who are willing to do acts as described above:
1) Show superior force enough to keep their fear of reprisal from allowing them freedom to express their hostilities.
Limitations - You can't be every where all the time so many will killed by these madmen and the PC world opinion will paint you as a bully.
2) Kill them.
Limitations - The PC world opinion will call you killers.
You can't win world opinion unless you are a third world dictator who is willing to torture your own people for fun and purchase the opinion of the UN, so why tolerate evil?
A person may be won over with logic and reason but the masses must be bought with spectacle and platitudes. - 2008 Elections
~Evil
April 25, 2009 - 09:22 ET by choselife3xThe only way to defeat someone who will go to any extreme is to be willing to go to any extreme to stop them. And no, for you screeming meemie brain-dead idjits out there, I'm NOT talking about commiting heinous acts against innocents like they do. I'm talking about capturing their leaders, prying all useful information out of them, and then executing them publicly. For every innocent they kill, we kill ten of their bad guys. For every prisoner they behead, we behead 10 of their guys. Harsh? So is chemotherapy. Does destroying evil make us evil? BS. Total BS. That's like saying that if I killed the murderer of my child then I'm "just as bad" as he is. What a load of bull. People that stupid are going to get us all killed.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
chosey
April 25, 2009 - 09:30 ET by botgthey fail to understand the difference between personal action and national action. Such persons will never understand how the same God can have nations eliminate evil groups of people AND tell persons to 'overcome evil with good'. Being logically inept all they can see is contradiction.
"Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend,------------inside a dog it's too dark to read" ---Groucho
~That's why I
April 25, 2009 - 09:36 ET by choselife3xLove this video.'Splains a lot.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
choselife3x - Thanks for the link to the video. I wasn't
April 25, 2009 - 15:19 ET by Rush Fanfamiliar with Evan Sayer. He really knows how to tell a story to make a point.
-----------------------------------------------------------
“Understand something about liberalism. They never stop until they get what they want, and when they get what they want, it's never enough. That's why it's a constant thing to have to oppose them. You can't join forces with them, you can't moderate them, you can't slow them down by joining them, you can't make them like you and have them change their agenda. They have to be stopped.” ~ Rush Limbaugh
~My pleasure
April 25, 2009 - 16:06 ET by choselife3xThat video is quite eye-opening, I love to share it.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Nice Fluff Piece
April 23, 2009 - 20:06 ET by BlueCat57I followed the link. It was a nice piece about a bunch of nice old men. Other than a couple of comments there wasn't much meat to it. It would be interesting to read more, especially information not filtered by the MSM.
War is hell and you usually don't sit down and have tea with your enemy.
Here are some thoughts that may be verified with research. The prisoners these men were interrogating had already been processed by some other intelligence units. In the case of Hess the war was over. The rush then was to get information before the Russians. It sounds like these men were doing "strategic" interrogations (we know these men have valuable information about something), not "tactical" (if we don't get this information fast soldiers will die).
The root of the debate is the definition of torture. One side views providing the wrong size of underwear as torture, the other uses a "no blood, no foul" approach. The issue is unlikely to be resolved since the sides will never agree on a definition.
It think it is more pertinent to discuss whether the prisoners should be considered soldiers. They do not wear uniforms, they do not fight by "accepted standards", they do not do any of the things that would be considered civilized warfare. As such they should not be considered soldiers. I think someone here mentioned that they can then be "disposed" of as their captors see fit.
It is hard to understand the thought process that goes on in the mind of people who think Club Gitmo is a hell hole.
While how the enemy treats their prisoners is no excuse for mistreating them when captured, it would go a long way to persuading me if these bleeding heart liberals were constantly condemning our enemy for their mistreatment of our captured soldiers and civilians. I can't recall them even condemning the beheadings. The impression I got was that they were amuzed and showed them at Happy Hour in their penthouses.
We beg to differ!
April 24, 2009 - 03:10 ET by JWFThe issue is unlikely to be resolved since the sides will never agree on a definition
There is a legal definition of torture. A legal definition of torture in international treaties and a legal definition of torture in Federal code. IT IS DEFINED!
The problem is - one side ignores the legal definition, that is the left.
Remember the 4 memos that were just released? It was lawyers discussing what methods could be legally used without falling into the legal definition of torture.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
an Eternal Champion after many exhausting trials and tribulations in the endless war between Law and Chaos
Your straw man wears underwear
April 24, 2009 - 08:38 ET by Smoking HotIt's pretty clear to me what the battle is here, and it's not over
fitting prisoners for underwear. It's about torture, waterboarding for
example.
I'm disappointed you find it so easy to dismiss the
perspective of some "nice old men." They won their war. Their war was
hell too, yet they condemn the torture tactics of the previous
administration. Maybe winning a war and condemning torture aren't
mutually exclusive.
Who doesn't condemn beheadings? The thing is, we don't have a lot of control over what savages do in other
countries. We do have control over what agents of our own government
do. I want to affect change where I can.
Interesting response.
April 24, 2009 - 08:41 ET by Mike BrattonWould you please define waterboarding, with particular emphasis on why you consider it to be "torture"?
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Two links
April 24, 2009 - 08:59 ET by Smoking HotWaterboarding is... pay special attention to the first paragraph.
"By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die."
UN Convention Against Torture... key point is Article 1
"torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession..."
Now, if causing someone to believe you are in the act of killing them slowly isn't torture, I really don't know what is.
~You're right
April 24, 2009 - 09:02 ET by choselife3xYou really don't know what is.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Hi CL
April 24, 2009 - 09:15 ET by Smoking HotGood to see you here again. Happy Friday.
~I've been around
April 24, 2009 - 09:29 ET by choselife3xYou and I just haven't been on the same threads. Again, go here and tell them what you think of what they do. Otherwise you are just an anti-American hypocrite, not someone who stands for principles.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Hear Ye! Hear Ye! Wiki is not a valid source for NB
April 24, 2009 - 09:05 ET by dvdaughtryWiki?!!
WTH! That definition might as well been writting by the Taliban.
Try again, Olive Oil.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Come on, this isn't that hard to understand
April 24, 2009 - 09:13 ET by Smoking HotWould you challenge me if I cited wiki in explaining the chemical composition of water? Some things are simple enough for wiki to handle, like the definition of waterboarding. Or how would you define it? Go ahead.
Something this political is
April 24, 2009 - 09:19 ET by dvdaughtrySomething this political is not in Wiki's reach. You're not going to pull a liberal biased source on the leading website that exposes such.
You go ahead and answer the question, because you have still failed to do so.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
I cited the EXACT definition of waterboarding.
April 24, 2009 - 09:52 ET by JWFOnce the cloth is saturated and completely covers tbe mouth and nose, air now is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence ofthe cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces tbe perception of "suffocation and incipient panic," i.e.,the perception of drowning. tbeindividual does not breathe any wa.ter into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty four inches. After this speriod, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths. The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth.
And that describes torture
April 24, 2009 - 10:31 ET by Smoking Hotsensation of drowning = sensation of death = sensation of being killed = severe pain or suffering = torture
Smoking Pot,
April 24, 2009 - 10:41 ET by R D HelmYou are nothing more than an enemy-coddling, thoroughly wussified candy ass.
If you are not willing to support the use of coercive interrogation techniques that could save the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent Americans, then you are not worth the toilet paper required to wipe your behind, much less the oxygen required to keep you alive.
When the civilized world finally loses out to the 7th Century barbaric Islamic horde, it will be mostly because of spineless cowards like you.
You are not fit to live in this country, nor are you worth another moment of my time.
-Dave
This coup has gone on long enough. The time to put it down is NOW.
~Dave
April 24, 2009 - 10:42 ET by choselife3xJinx. ;-)
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Thank the lord above, a rational voice.
April 24, 2009 - 11:13 ET by JWFThanks Dave, chose, Mike B. Blonde
The CIA requested a legal opinion on established and classified procedures that were taken directly from SERE school. The OLC gave an opinion on those procedures.
I pasted it here 5 times. Waterboarding is now declassified. It is placing a wet cloth over the mouth for 20 to 40 seconds. The memo stated no water would enter the mouth or nose.
Is this painful? No.
Is this suffering? possibly.
Webster:
n.
1.
The bearing of pain, inconvenience, or loss; pain endured; distress, loss, or injury incurred; as, sufferings by pain or sorrow; sufferings by want or by wrongs.
Is it severe pain or severe suffering? no no no.
Why can't I catch a break from these idiots lately? Did NewsBusters buy an idiot internet magnet or something
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
**JWF
April 24, 2009 - 11:19 ET by pelicanmarshWhy can't I catch a break from these idiots lately? Did NewsBusters buy an idiot internet magnet or something?
LOL! I was wondering the same thing! I don't know what it is about you, JWF, but you seem to attract intense debates! (I have been reading posts here on Newsbusters for quite a while now, and your debates are fantastic!) I like it.
Consider me a fan, sir.
Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional privilege; it is not a license to parade yourself as a wanna-be intellectual jackass.
Thank you Sir.
April 24, 2009 - 11:26 ET by JWFI keep mistakenly assuming these idiots are here to learn as well as comment like me.
Thank you. I work the midnight shift and have to go to bed. Just did not want the last thing I read to be from an idiot. Now I have a new rational friend.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
~I have suggested
April 24, 2009 - 10:41 ET by choselife3xThree times that you go here and tell the Islamic militants what you think of their methods and you have not responded. If you do not, then you are a chickensh!t hypocrite who doesn't give a d@mn about the torture and murder of civilians. You aren't arguing on principle, you are smearing the people who have kept you safe. You don't deserve their sacrifice.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Either you missed the point...
April 24, 2009 - 09:17 ET by Mike Bratton...or you intentionally ignored it.
I didn't ask you to cut-and-paste propaganda. I didn't ask you to regurgitate someone else's opinion. I asked you to define waterboarding. I asked you to say why you consider it to be torture.
Never mind that your propaganda is specious at best. You dodged the question, and it is one which is germane to the discussion. Do you honestly think that terrorist prisoners at Guantanamo believed their lives to be at risk?
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Yes!
April 24, 2009 - 10:35 ET by Smoking HotOf course they believed their lives were at risk! They can't breathe. These aren't robots.
Double post.
April 24, 2009 - 18:10 ET by Mike Bratton.
Then the obvious eludes you.
April 24, 2009 - 18:07 ET by Mike BrattonVery disappointing.
Let's say Prisoner A, a known terrorist whose modus operandi is killing innocent people in order to advance the cause of his belief system--we'll call it Bislamo-fascism--is in U.S. custody. Prisoner A gets a good dose of waterboarding, after which time he is returned to his cell.
In his cell, Prisoner A dines on a custom-designed menu, gets to indulge his religious preferences several times a day, and enjoys other such amenities. After awhile, his captors bring him back for another waterboarding session.
Does Prisoner A honestly believe his life is at risk? Or, does he understand that the discomfort he's about to experience is remarkably far from life-threatening?
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Re the obvious
April 24, 2009 - 19:27 ET by slickwillie2001This is one aspect of waterboarding that the lefties won't face, the 'fear of imminent death' argument. They want us to believe that these terrorists have never heard of waterboarding, that it's a geewhiz invention of the evil CIA. Terrorists have their own training camps that they advertise; waterboarding has been around at least since World War II which the lefties have reminded us of (!). There is no chance, zero chance, that the three terrorists that were waterboarded were unaware of the procedure and they knew that once it was over, the lemon chicken would be served for dinner that night.
LIAR. Waterboarding is defined in the declassified memo.
April 24, 2009 - 09:51 ET by JWFOnce the cloth is saturated and completely covers tbe mouth and nose, air now is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence ofthe cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces tbe perception of "suffocation and incipient panic," i.e.,the perception of drowning. tbeindividual does not breathe any wa.ter into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty four inches. After this speriod, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths. The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
I'm all for being above the
April 24, 2009 - 08:45 ET by dvdaughtryI'm all for being above the board. Let the "savages" set the rules.
We'll play.
I want to affect change where I can.
Helluva job you're doing here, pal.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Got your attention anyway...
April 24, 2009 - 08:53 ET by Smoking HotCan't confirm you're actually thinking about it. Ah well. Not all work has an immediate pay off.
Got your attention anyway...
April 24, 2009 - 08:52 ET by Smoking HotCan't confirm you're actually thinking about it. Ah well. Not all work has an immediate pay off.
~"Who doesn't condemn beheadings?"
April 24, 2009 - 09:06 ET by choselife3xGo here and tell them that, or shut up.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
The accusation was...
April 24, 2009 - 10:51 ET by Smoking HotLiberals don't condemn beheadings. I know many liberals. Not one of them condones beheadings. Ask them, and they'll flat out condemn beheadings. Granted my liberal friends are all Americans or Westerners. Maybe it's the liberals in Pakistan and Iran beheading people. I doubt they'd accept that characterization.
We don't behead people, so that's not the issue here. My point there was, again, to ask you to recognize we don't have much power over what goes on in Pakistan or Iran. We have a lot more power to decide how people in our government represent us. At least that's the theory of democracy.
waterboarding is NOT torture.
April 23, 2009 - 20:43 ET by puredmashieBEHEADING is torture.
swing hard in case you hit it.
Your subject line disagrees with your post. Correct it.
April 24, 2009 - 03:00 ET by JWFHow exactly does waterboarding constitute severe pain or severe suffering?
Come on legal man. Explain to the entire world. Come on Mr. Lawyer. Tell us.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
an Eternal Champion after many exhausting trials and tribulations in the endless war between Law and Chaos
Who needs a lawyer?
April 24, 2009 - 06:31 ET by Smoking HotCommon sense ought to be sufficient, but here's a video from someone with firsthand exposure to the technique.
Read the memo's. Read the memo's. Read the memo's.
April 24, 2009 - 07:08 ET by JWFEven when all of these methods are considered combined in an overall course of conduct, they Still would not inflict severe physical pain or suffering. (1)
Lawyers said that in the memo's. Lawyers.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
(1) http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf
Who needs a lawyer?
April 24, 2009 - 06:31 ET by Smoking HotCommon sense ought to be sufficient, but here's a video from someone with firsthand exposure to the technique just in case.
Enough with your video.
April 24, 2009 - 07:01 ET by JWFThe exact nature of waterboarding has been classified until President Obama released those memo's.
We now know exactly what waterboarding is as does the enemy.
It does not involve inhaling water nor does it involve stopping breathing at all. Breathing is SLIGHTLY RESTRICTED.
So do shut up.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
Slightly restricted
April 24, 2009 - 08:47 ET by Smoking HotGive me a break. I can slightly restrict your breathing by wrapping my
hand around your throat. I can release after 40 seconds too and not
kill you. But the threat of death is real. Waterboarding is
controlled drowning. The reaction of people undergoing the procedure
is panic and the sensation of drowning, dying, death, kaputt. It's not
pleasant. It's not mildly irritating. It is severe pain and suffering. Torture. Illegal.
~How about beheading?
April 24, 2009 - 08:53 ET by choselife3xCutting off body parts? Burning alive? Stoning to death? Are those 'torture'? 'Illegal'?
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
Grow a pair
April 24, 2009 - 08:54 ET by dvdaughtryWaterboarding is controlled drowning
Simulated, not controlled. The difference? The intent is NOT to drown, but create the illusion thereof.
It's really the best of both worlds.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Stop with your hypotheticals.
April 24, 2009 - 10:23 ET by JWFWaterboarding is clearly defined and I have posted it here 5 times. So we don't need you and your silly hand around the throat.
There is no pain involved at all LIAR.
As for suffering, READ THE BLEEPING MEMO YOU IDIOT. They listed all Seals that went throught this. It was taken directly from SEER school. Not suffering. LIAR.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
an Eternal Champion after many exhausting trials and tribulations in the endless war between Law and Chaos
No pain at all?
April 24, 2009 - 10:38 ET by Smoking HotThen how on earth would this technique supposedly "work"? "Stop, stop! I'll talk!!!!" Of course it's painful. It is severe pain or suffering. It is torture.
Severe?
April 24, 2009 - 10:49 ET by BlondeHow severe?
Toothache severe? Stepped on a sticker severe? Lower back pain severe? Cut off a finger severe?
You are full of it. Until you've experienced it, and judging by your posts I am sure you haven't....you need to be quiet.
There are scads of members here who have been through SERE school, where they do waterboarding (and worse).
So as my new friend Pelican says, just say "thank you", and go away. We know all about the liberal whine on this subject, you are adding nothing here.
I hope he fails, too.
Yea your right
April 24, 2009 - 07:11 ET by general companyWe should let Americans die, just to keep KSM comfortable. Nice solution.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
It's time to get a little tougher.
April 24, 2009 - 07:41 ET by dvdaughtrytorture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental...
Sounds pretty subjective to me. One thing is for sure, we have turned into sissies over the decades.
When I was 5 I was hit by a car and broke my leg--no tears. Emmitt Smith played a playoff game with a separated shoulder. Curt Schilling was bleeding out of his heal and pitched.
Excuse the sports examples and realize that severe for one is not severe for another and TOUGHEN UP. Simulated drowning is not severe, it's convincing.
Hell, if we get down to it, the left has been mentally tortured by logic for years! LOGIC IS TORTURE! BAN LOGIC!
We'll lose what we got (what's left of it anyway), if we won't protect it.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
~Amen brother
April 24, 2009 - 08:44 ET by choselife3xAnyone who holds their 'moral scruples' more dear than innocent people's lives isn't worth a bucket of warm spit. 'Scuse the crude image, but after yesterday I'm tired of this subject. It must make those worthless scum happy to watch us debate about whether or not sleep deprivation is torture while they're stoning, raping, hacking and beheading. When they start attacking here I'll use my hands after I run out of bullets and knives.
(And if you're reading this, "Hi Dad!" ;-)
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.
I saw the clip of this
April 23, 2009 - 15:22 ET by bigtimerI saw the clip of this awhile ago, in fact I just mentioned it on the poll question...Meghan is as clueless as her father is...and I am being being extremely polite and restrained here with what I would really like to say about her.
She is pure trash...and it is time she is put in the recycle-bin.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
"She is pure trash...and it
April 23, 2009 - 16:43 ET by Chris Norman"She is pure trash...and it is time she is put in the recycle-bin."
But, bt, she'd just come back as a Dixie Chick or someone... :)
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Behar & McCain is like
April 23, 2009 - 15:23 ET by HockeyKidBehar & McCain is like listening to a conversation between two-year-old and a half-flat tennis ball.
What planet do these two inhabit? Would Behar or McCain say it isn't torture if I tore out her liver and ate it without waiting for her to die? Such are the ways of animals.
But to Behar, whose only knowledge of animals is apparently straight out of "Babar the King", animals don't torture. What a piece of work.
"Beauty is only skin deep, but liberal's to the bone." - me
"No, they eat each other"
April 23, 2009 - 15:32 ET by SickofLibsA classic, Tim!
If animals WERE smart enough to employ torture to get food, a better mate, etc, certainly they would do it.
SGT. SQUIRREL: "C'mon, where'd you bury dem nuts I saw you with? Give it up, or my associate here will chew your legs off."
Blohar is also apparently unaware that dolphins (who are even smarter than humans) regularly kill sharks just for sh*ts and grins.
Dolphins also engage in
April 23, 2009 - 15:49 ET by ex buff e-dubDolphins also engage in infanticide:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1590/is_4_56/ai_57041274/
Joy Behar. An idiot savant - minus the savant.
April 23, 2009 - 15:35 ET by jazboThose who believe in nothing will believe anything.
America never tortured until
April 23, 2009 - 15:43 ET by mattmAmerica never tortured until Joy Behar got on T.V.
Beat me to it
April 23, 2009 - 15:48 ET by AuH2oYou beat me to it.
I was going to say watching the view is torture.
the view
April 23, 2009 - 16:01 ET by sojournerAnn Coulter had a video of her talking to Joy Behr, and Joy brought up the torture - Ann told her we don't torture, but the really bad detainees have to watch the view :-)
soj... ROFLMAO! How true
April 23, 2009 - 16:16 ET by bigtimersoj...
ROFLMAO!
How true that is!
Ann is the gal!!!
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Party ID
April 23, 2009 - 16:16 ET by Sabre16If 58% of voters under the age of 30 claim Democrat party ID, compared with 33% who ID as Republicans is true, I will take that.
I would be willing to bet the 33% GOP young people are more likley to vote than the other 58%. Conservatives vote out of a sense of duty while most dems vote on the cause fad of the day (read: Obama).
If either Ms. McCain's 81%
April 23, 2009 - 17:07 ET by BuffNBoneIf either Ms. McCain's 81% or the 58% cited as those under 30 being democrats is true, then maybe we shouldn't be concerned about the debt that is being placed on their shoulders.
If they don't mind, why should we?
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
Why should we?
April 24, 2009 - 01:41 ET by Sabre16My son is 9. He didn't get a chance to vote for <uggg> McCain over the even worse option. This debt is his. Thats why I care.
Behar
April 23, 2009 - 16:24 ET by jessieHJessie R. Hamby Joy Behar has been torturing people for years on the "view".
Joy to the libs!
April 23, 2009 - 17:54 ET by blazermaniacI couldn't agree more. Except for the fact, that I would never watch the garbage in the first place.
No Joy, Clinton just barbecued the Branch Davidians
April 23, 2009 - 16:32 ET by Lord ErondTruly dumb.
"Please get your facts right, then you may distort them as you please" -Mark Twain
"Proud Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"
What does Behar think these folks were thinking?
April 23, 2009 - 16:43 ET by Gary HallWhat, and check him into a Holiday Express?
Seems we heard that Pres. Clinton told Michael Scheuer, the CIA man in charge of Clinton's extraordinary rendition program said, I don't care what you do with them."
And, just what case was Eric Holder making here?
on CNN in 2002, laying out the case that the need to garner information from these captured terrorists was so great, that we could not hold them as POW's and afford them Geneva Convention rights:
Stop - Eric Holder has argued Bush's position. Is not he arguing that we can't be bound by others in what we must do to garner the information we must acquire to protect ourselves and others from this threat? He continued:
Bush was president during Viet Nam?
April 23, 2009 - 16:51 ET by wizardjrWow. I didn't know that.
While we didn't generally torture the VC we caught, there is all sorts of documentation on 'extreme questioning' used during the Viet Nam war.
If I bothered to research it I am sure I can come up with first person accounts from across the history of this country since the Mayflower got here. I'll bet there's any number of grisly stories from the French and Indian Wars alone.
If I die and go to hell, please God don't put me in the room running reruns of The View for all Eternity, please.
No
April 23, 2009 - 20:39 ET by BlueCat57But he was alive, so Obama can blame him.
Oh, wait a minute, that's what Obama says we're doing to him. Since he was only 8 when Ayers was bombing things he couldn't possibly know about that.
Since he was only 3 mo. old when something else happened he couldn't possibly have learned about it in school.
What sort of idiot is Obama? The worst sort.
I would like to remind miss BlowHard about a couple of great
April 23, 2009 - 16:57 ET by JTPAmericans name Simon Kenton and Daniel Boone. These two along with many others were brutally tortured by the original Americans. In the 1700's, people were routinely killed by a very slow death. It was not uncommon to have genitals, ears, noses, thumbs and breasts cut off. Stomachs sliced open and intenstines pulled out and left hanging for the tortured to look at as they slowly bled to death. Tied to a stake with a fire around not under them and left to burn for a couple days while alive. Sharp sticks jabbed and left in the armpits and groin. Made to run through a gauntlet of clubs and whips for a hundred yards. Most would not make it through 1/2 way before dying. Don't tell me Americans never tortured. And it wasn't just Indians.. the settlers and military of the time was known to do it also although mainly for revenge. Water boarding would have been a welcome bath back then.
Under 30 democrats vs republicans
April 23, 2009 - 19:02 ET by nandrelliWhatever the true number (58% or 81%), it goes right along with the expression by Winston Churchill:
"If you are 20 and you are not a liberal, you don't have a heart.
If you are 40 and you are not a conservative, you don't have a brain."
You remember Winston Churchill, don't you? He's the old white guy who 0bama decided was no longer important to the United States.
Questions and Answers
April 23, 2009 - 19:31 ET by BlueCat57There are questions that shouldn't be asked, and answers we don't want to hear.
Does this dress make me look fat?
Enough said.
Joy Behar. Next to
April 23, 2009 - 20:07 ET by RogerCfromSDJoy Behar.
Next to Pelosi, this pig is about as dumb as they get.
A nation cannot be free without a free, unbiased media. We are not free.
if i never heard joy behar's name mentioned again here
April 23, 2009 - 20:54 ET by puredmashiemy life would have no less meaning.
really, does the view actually qualify as a news medium? how different is their show from ellen's, of tyra bank's for that matter? this is supposed to point out and expose liberal media bias. i don't have a problem with morning news programs, but the view is just a bunch of long island yentas kibbutzing. this is not a news medium - it's not even an extra small.
swing hard in case you hit it.
when I put my ear up to the monitor
April 23, 2009 - 20:12 ET by katainkentpretty sure I can hear the ocean.
Liberals think like children - they want to be cared for - so I don't doubt that larger percent of young people consider themselves Democrat. Meghan also should look into what the word "unprecedented" means.
They finally found someone who will play their "face of the GOP" game. Spectacular.
I love to help the helpless but I'm not gonna help the clueless ~Dennis Miller
Joy, NOT in a MILLION years baby... I know you are hurt over
April 23, 2009 - 21:15 ET by pahubermy feelings...that you are totally incompetant!
Sorry, I know you love crack, but you can make the same assinine statements w/o it... please continue for Che' and other haters of America.
For Communism!!!
Interesting point of view
April 23, 2009 - 21:19 ET by srqvetInteresting point of view on waterboarding. http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/23391/48/media/OnDemand/navypilot-lettertopresident.pdf
That's why this issue will
April 23, 2009 - 21:30 ET by usinkoreaThat's why this issue will turn out to be a big loser for the Dems.
Most Americans, I believe, take it for granted that the CIA and other US operatives have used at least the same techniques in the past, and the further you go toward the left, the more you'll find who believe worse was commonly done.
The people on the left who are going to benefit from this at all are the far left Chomsky-ites who have long argued the United States was much worse that the communist dictatorships they felt the US lied about.
The bulk of Americans, including Dems, are going to balk at equating the US with the Soviet Union or North Korea, and that is the only path available for the people trying desperately to damn Bush for this without burying all American history with this untenable belief the US has never done something like these harsh interrogation techniques before.
I would love to see
April 23, 2009 - 21:35 ET by RR GOPI would love to see Blowhard take a trip to any of the following countries and refuse to cover up her old elephant hide:
Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Afghanistan.
Oh, and film it, because as her sorry self is being stoned or at the very least thrown in jail her protestations of "But I love you guys! I hate Bush!" would be priceless.
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 61% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory (yep...approval for Congress now at 39%...do you believe that!?).
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld authorized TORTURE, and should
April 24, 2009 - 02:07 ET by Rush Fanbe prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The torture they authorized that was used on enemy combatants is unconscionable. This was not "enhanced interrogation". This was pure, unadulterated torture!
Now I don't mean the waterboarding, or the use of bugs, or sleep deprivation, or any of the other enhanced interrogation techniques outlined in the just-released memos. Those are reasonable means of obtaining vital information as far as I'm concerned.
What I find shockingly unjust are the techniques President Bush authorized that are not in the memo, but what my sources in the government tell me were used when waterboarding and other harsh techniques failed to work.
One of the primary and shameful torture techniques authorized by President Bush was to play video of the nightly rants of MSNBC's Keith Olbermann over and over again. At times the CIA would supplement this torture by showing a video over and over again of MSNBC's David Shuster and his whiny high-pitched voice. I have also been told by my government sources that video of CNN's Jack Cafferty's incoherent rants were also used at times.
Although these unscrupulous and unjust torture techniques were effective, they inflicted severe mental pain and suffering on these enemy combatants, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. This extreme torture is against international law and the United Nations Convention Against Torture.
A renowned psychiatrist told me that watching Olbermann, Shuster or Cafferty for even a brief period can cause severe mental breakdown, trauma, and lasting psychological damage that may be irreversible or ultimately cause death.
In summary, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri may be bad people, but they didn't deserve to be tortured by having to listen to Keith Olbermann, David Shuster or Jack Cafferty. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld deserve to be held accountable for authorizing this extreme torture.
------------------------------------------------------------
“They are using the law. They are using government to advance a cause that is un-American. We are going to use the power that the left is centralizing in the federal government to punish them, to break 'em up, and to make them pay for this. It's time for tit-for-tat. Nice guy playing by the rules when they don't, is over. It's time they got a taste of their own medicine, and it's going to happen, folks, because they're not going to hold power forever.” ~ Rush Limbaugh
Meghan McCain - God's gift to Democrats
April 24, 2009 - 03:25 ET by JWFmy big criticism is ‘You had your eight years. Go away.’
Party Elders speaking out. NO NO NO. Can't have that. As a matter of fact. Let's just have all Elders shut their big fat traps. No. Let's do one better. Let's kill the Elders. And have only a society where the young can speak.
In the year 2274, after the world has been decimated by a holocaust, a new society is built and resides in a domed city. However, it is forbidden for humans to live beyond 30 and you are given two choices, either to go through a ritual called Carousel with the promise of being "renewed", or go on the run and risk being hunted down by an elite police force known as Sandmen.
Logan's Run (aka Meghan's Run)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074812/plotsummary
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
**Comment
April 24, 2009 - 09:22 ET by pelicanmarshAnyone that feels they have the right to question the methods used, by our military/intelligence organizations, those people need to cease and desist. You are way over your heads, here.
Seriously.
Unless you have ever "been there", you don't get it and you never will get it and your opinion- while completely valid in some circles- doesn't really hold any significance.
Yes, this comment makes me sound like a condescending prick, but I can live with that. Please, if you have not "been there", please just say "Thank You" and be on your way. Leave this issue alone.
Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional privilege; it is not a license to parade yourself as a wanna-be intellectual jackass.
Good Call Pelican
April 24, 2009 - 09:33 ET by dvdaughtryReminds me of Col Nathan Jessop:
"...I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
**dvdaughtry
April 24, 2009 - 11:11 ET by pelicanmarshIt's true, it's true...
And while it is rather convenient that my ideals happen to coincide with a movie- and might give one the impression that I am merely parroting movie lines- I hope that that does not diminish the truth behind my words. (On a side note, I think that characters like Col. Jessup are more realistic than a lot of non-military people would believe. It's just more appropriate to swoon over Tom Cruise's character- he's so dreamy and polite and his righteous anger just makes my thighs quiver- than it is to acknowledge that the dirty deeds needed to protect America require Alpha-male men who have no moral compunction against getting the job done, no matter what it takes.)
It seems to me that this issue has to many detractors who can really hold no water. Of course our nation has dirty little secrets, and of course our nation is, even today, involved in endeavors that would make even the staunchest conservative wince.
In a perfect world, the citizens of this great nation would know every single thing the government was up to. But this ain't a perfect world.
Thanks for your comment, dvdaughtry. Do let me know, if you would, when you purchase your first handgun. I'm partial to the M1911 .45 myself. It's sturdy, reliable, easy to maintain, and bathed in history. It has much more knock-down/take-down power than a lot of the 9 mm I see around. The M1911 is great for close-range, close-quarter use and home defense. For what it's worth, there's my 2 cents.
I'll see ya 'round.
Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional privilege; it is not a license to parade yourself as a wanna-be intellectual jackass.
I we sure Joy Bore is a
April 24, 2009 - 11:12 ET by wiwfI we sure Joy Bore is a natural redhead? Because she's acting like a natural blonde.
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Pelican
April 24, 2009 - 12:26 ET by dvdaughtryNo, I didn't think you were parroting. As much as I am annoyed with the entertainment industry, there are a few morsels of fine wisdom that apply to life. I think our pop culture can often times reveal the heart of our society, good and bad.
I already have a few guns. My first was Remington 870 Express Magnum. I got that mostly as a toy for shooting clay targets at my old Thanksgiving hangout. The next was a .40 cal semi auto, that I took with me when I did some work in New Orleans after Katrina.
When our illustrious President was elected I purchased a S&W .38 Special and a 18.5" shotgun. I also just completed my concealed and carry permit class here in NC this past weekend. I a mere 6 months, I will have that permit (3 month wait for the background check appointment and then the sheriff has 90 days to issue the permit, what joke).
I have my eyes set on a Kimber 1911, but with my first born due to arrive in several weeks, my wife has put the kabosh on any more firearm purchases, for the time being.
NB has been an encouragement to me that there are many of us that will fight to perserve, and even restore, our Country. No doubt, we will see you around.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Every time I listen to her
April 24, 2009 - 17:12 ET by rbosqueEvery time I listen to her speak gives me that great assurance that I'm not the most stupidest person on earth.