At his blog Political Punch, ABC reporter Jake Tapper noted the latest thing outraging Republicans. As the McCain campaign prepared to release an ad highlighting McCain's military service, Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean sent out an obnoxious reply: "While we honor McCain’s military service, the fact is Americans want a real leader who offers real solutions, not a blatant opportunist who doesn’t understand the economy and is promising to keep our troops in Iraq for 100 years."
The GOP seized upon the term "blatant opportunist" to suggest that Dean is implying McCain is an opportunist for including his POW information in his latest TV ad, with the RNC demanding an immediate apology. Tapper suggested:
That's all noise. What's more interesting are the Dean quotes from 2004 that may come back to haunt him this year.
"The real issue is this," Dean said in March 2004, when endorsing formal rival Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., "Who would you rather have in charge of the defense of the United States of America, a group of people who never served a day overseas in their life, or a guy who served his country honorably and has three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star on the battlefields of Vietnam?"
McCain, by the way, has been awarded the Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals, a Purple Heart and the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Ouch. It's certainly true that the war-hero stories are shifting parties this time around, and so the party lines change around. John Kerry pounded his three months in Vietnam so hard that conservative writers like James Taranto made fun of it, introducing him most days as "John Kerry, who by the way, served in Vietnam."
Now it's the liberals who want to mock an "opportunistic" focus on Vietnam biography. But there is a dramatic difference between McCain's long captivity in Vietnam and Kerry's noticeably truncated tour -- and a much more dramatic difference in how they treated their comrades in arms after they returned home. It should be fascinating to see if the liberal media follows Tapper's blogging into what Democrats said about Kerry vs. Bush a few short years ago.
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center
Comments Policy
Howard Dean....
March 30, 2008 - 08:30 ET by heldmywThe gift that keeps on giving!
LOL!!
March 30, 2008 - 09:25 ET by GForcePlease Mr. Dean, don't stop talking!
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"-Aristotle
Kerry wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in the Hanoi Hilton
March 30, 2008 - 08:51 ET by political mavenNo caviar or a millionaire woman to spoil me? Boo Hoo!
Let me sit with Jane Fonda for the next photo!
Comparing "the Poodle" to McCain
March 30, 2008 - 08:54 ET by ricklailThere really is no comparison. The Poddle got his 3 questonable Purple Hearts and come home. He protested the war calling our troops baby killers and other things. The Cong used him and Hanoi Jane for propaganda.
McCain earned his awards. He never came back blaming his fellow brothers for any thing like that. He could have come home anytime he wanted to but he did want the Cong to use it for propaganda.
The Poodle: He is French, well groomed and the toy of a rich woman.
By the way, did anyone see VH1's slap of Vietnam vets on a program called "The Drug Years?" I was channel surfing when I ran across it. They clamied that 1 in 4 servicemen in Nam were hooked on dope. Hundreds died from overdosing. What a bunch of bovine scat.
If you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes.-Lewis Grizzard
Early Release
March 30, 2008 - 09:56 ET by allanfDidn't McCain refuse an early release by the North Vietnamese. It cost him an additional five years of confinement.
Yes he was offered becuase
March 30, 2008 - 15:34 ET by ricklailYes he was offered becuase his father was an admiral I think. He refused unless they let all of the POW's go
If you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes.-Lewis Grizzard
A rare, open liberal's
March 30, 2008 - 19:49 ET by JasonCA rare, open liberal's confession of BDS-laden bias:
Somehow, the issue of military experience and the presidency seemed much more important to me when Bush was on the losing end of it.
I'm not saying I'm proud of feeling this way.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Jason,
March 30, 2008 - 19:55 ET by Free StinkerJason,
That's good. 1st step in getting better is admiting the problem.
Now, step two: Read Eat The Rich by P.J. O'Rourke for a quick overview of economics.
Step Three: Vote GOP or Libertarian for the rest of your life.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
I often vote Libertarian.
March 30, 2008 - 19:57 ET by JasonCI often vote Libertarian. As for economics, if you're guessing at my position by my profile statement, it's half tongue-in-cheek and half admitted pipedream.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Cool. :-) Last step.
March 30, 2008 - 19:59 ET by Free StinkerCool. :-)
Last step. Don't compare yourself to Leon. Trust me, you're better than that.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Hypocrisy, thy name is Dean
March 30, 2008 - 08:52 ET by Indiana Joe"Opportunistic" is changing your argument based on which side of it works best for you at the moment.
In 2004, military service was, Dean thought, a plus for the Democrats. Now, it's not.
It's just that simple.
Rewind back to 2004 and
March 30, 2008 - 10:28 ET by BlazerRewind back to 2004 and revisit how the DNC tried to portray and turn John "Ghengis Khan" Kerry" into Audie Murphy or Alvin York, instead of the backstabbing, lieing, amoebic pondscum he actually is.
Methinks the crazy dentist should lay off the laughing gas for awhile, YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAARRRGGGEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.
" The Cake is a lie."
Conservatives didn't trash Kerry's service
March 30, 2008 - 10:36 ET by ThisnThatInstead, we trashed Kerry's lies, attitudes, and treatment of U.S. soldiers. McCain didn't compare U.S. soldiers to Ghengis Khan. McCain didn't throw away his ribbons. McCain didn't ask for a purple heart for a cut on his finger. McCain didn't lie about being in Cambodia over Christmas. Kerry, Clinton, and the rest of the Democratic creeps all have a common trait -- they hate the U.S. military until it's time to win some voters -- then they lie to try to get those votes. And we conservatives call them on it -- doing the job the MSM refuses to do.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
MSM DID Do "Their Job"
March 30, 2008 - 15:07 ET by Del DolemonteIn 2004, the MSM did do their job. When the Swifites came out and started to question Jean-Claude Kerry's military record, they first tried to discredit and smear the group. When those tactics didn't work, they simply buried and ignored the story.
It's interesting to note that even now, 4 years later, some in the media are still trying to smear and discredit the Swifties. To wit, this article from a couple of days ago in a Massachusetts paper, talking about a GOP fundraiser who may be charged with embezzling:
"You may not have heard of Ward, but you've probably heard of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, who leveled attacks that were not well founded at John Kerry 's Vietnam service record in the 2004 presidential election."
And from a Roanoake paper, this:
"Remember the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" smear campaign, which was successful in derailing John Kerry's 2004 presidential bid about events from 38 years prior."
$1 a share SALON also can't get past 2004:
"Ironically, that might make Clinton immune to dirty tricks like the ones the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth pulled on John Kerry "
From an anti-Fox News website in California
"Who can forget the most vicious Republican 527 in recent memory, The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. They appeared on The O'Reilly Factor countless times in 2004 and even then he managed to defend them with an attack on Soros."
From last week in Canada's National Post:
"Just ask John Kerry. The Democratic candidate was a decorated Vietnam veteran whose 2004 candidacy was destroyed, in part, because the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth smeared his service record and attacked his later dissent over the Vietnam War as unpatriotic."
These people just can't get over the fact that Kerry was fallible in any way. And since they can't disprove what the Swifties said about their boy, they do what Saul Alinsky taught them to do-smear them.
Josef Geobbels would be proud of all of them.
NOTHING
March 30, 2008 - 20:22 ET by Cape Conservativethe Swift Boat Veterans said has ever been proven false!!!
Get over it, Dean! And GET OVER IT, MSM!!!
Dems trash military because
March 30, 2008 - 17:01 ET by NortoDems trash military because even tho the Gop gets most those votes, it is too small a voting bloc to be seriously concerned with.
On the other hand, they continue to make the black vote think they care for them because it is 13% of the population. That is a serious number. Of course, Republicans have always led the fight for minority rights and last I knew there were no Republican KKK's in congress.
In 1960, a bunch of "rednecks" from the Northeast initiated a black, Ron Brown(Clinton's own) and a Jew, Barry White to a frat at Middlebury and got thrown out of the WASP national, Sigma Phi Epsilon. We changed the name to Sig Ep and kept on partying.
Joe Bujold from Dixfield, Maine was president and I seem to remember the vote was unanimous.
Republicans led the charge for Civil Rights and the Dems dragged their feet. I simply do not know when blacks are going to get it?!
what a streatch
March 30, 2008 - 10:44 ET by crsheddleave it to tapper to make that streatch.
when i see the term "blatant opportunist" and mccain used together, my first thoughts are how he changed his views on
immigration, right-wing religious leaders, torture, etc
so he could get the gop nomination.
but, that's just me.
Yep, I agree
March 30, 2008 - 10:47 ET by ThisnThatThat's just you.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
of course it's just
March 30, 2008 - 13:00 ET by crsheddof course it's just me.
if conservatives didn't streatch what was said, they would have to find a REAL reason to bash progressives.
All we do is repeat what
March 30, 2008 - 14:43 ET by ThisnThatAll we do is repeat what liberals say -- then compare that information with other or conflicting points of view. We know the libs will interpret this as bashing, because they become confused when logic and facts are presented and don't know what to do other than lash out. It's fun; entertaining; predictable; and hilarious.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
I also enjoy the names they
March 30, 2008 - 14:47 ET by Free StinkerI also enjoy the names they use for themselves . . . "Progressives"
As if Liberalism had anything to do with actual progress.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
That's why I deliberately
March 30, 2008 - 15:09 ET by ThisnThatThat's why I deliberately refuse to use that term. They believe so much in the power of labels that they think if we use the label, then we've bought into their terms. It's also part of their re-definition program. Such as marriage -- redefine it, thereby legitimize the behaviour they want. I don't think so.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
LOL!
March 30, 2008 - 15:11 ET by Del DolemonteAnother Leftist who's afraid to call himself a "liberal".
We love you Howard Dean.So I
March 30, 2008 - 10:50 ET by obxrayWe love you Howard Dean.So I guess we were right about John "reporting for duty" Kerry being an opportunist. What a bunch of nimrods.
Defending the freedom of speech
March 30, 2008 - 11:25 ET by gleefullyisayIt's sickening to think that Mac took a beating to preserve the right for the deaniac to open his ignorant mouth in public. That's why it's important to keep these two socialist leaning pretending to be Americans out of the WH, because in a socialist society one of the first things to go is freedom of speech.
He's off his meds?
March 30, 2008 - 11:26 ET by nwahsI would guess Howard Dean is off his medication again.
HERE IS THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET
March 30, 2008 - 12:05 ET by DelsaIssues/Policies do NOT matter in this race.
And in some circles...
Obama is fawned over because he is BLACK. Should he win, it will be because he is a symbolic new figure in the White House
Clinton is fawned over because she is WOMAN. Should she win, it will be because she is a symbolic new figure in the White House.
McCain is fawned over because he is VIET NAM X POW. Should he win, it will be because he is a symbolic new figure in the White House.
These three candidate's have NO issues friendly to the average American "CITIZEN " Period!
At least this citizen.
Again with the "100 year" lie.
March 30, 2008 - 12:06 ET by Logic over emotionWith a little twist: McCain now promises a 100 years in Iraq according to Dean.
McCain made it very clear what he meant: "We've been in Japan for 60 years. We've been in South Korea for 50 years or so."
Every day it's another lie with these people. From Hillary dodging sniper fire to Obama saying, "My former pastor said some objectionable things when I wasn't in church on those particular days."
"I didn’t inhale"
March 30, 2008 - 14:46 ET by needle...Obama saying, "My former pastor said some objectionable things when I wasn't in church on those particular days."
…in other words, “I didn’t inhale” (speaking of lying).
Impunitas semper ad deteriora invitat.
War Service
March 30, 2008 - 11:43 ET by jaywlThe truth about John McCain's service is that he flew a few missions off the carrier and as a comanding officer sent young men to their possible death in an unjust war. Then he sat out the remainder of the war in the Hilton Hotel in the capitol city of Viet Nam. You could look it up.
Don't shoot guys, just kidding! But, I wouldn't be surprised if some rag believed such trash or didn't and twisted it into a story anyway.
The other truth is
March 30, 2008 - 12:10 ET by DelsaObama is a liar
Clinton is a liar
And McCain is an enigma
McCain
March 30, 2008 - 12:43 ET by iveseenitallMcCain is a true war hero. I don't agree with him politcally on many issues. But Obama is the anti-Christ. Both he and Hillary are brainwashed Communists. Looks like we are stuck with McCain. By far, he's the least of three bad choices.
P.S. Dean, as are so many "liberals", is an adolescent ignoramus.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
"anti-Christ"?
March 30, 2008 - 12:43 ET by DelsaA bit strong.
Giving him way too much historical significance
obama
March 30, 2008 - 13:32 ET by jaywlMy wife told me in October or November last year that Obama was the anti-christ. His story, bio, origins, etc. reminded her of the Omen guy-Damien?- so much that she just couldn't get the thought out of her head.
I agree with you. In no way
March 30, 2008 - 14:03 ET by ahusserI agree with you. In no way or shape could I be considered a religious person and I think he is the anti-christ. A little tongue in cheek maybe but so.
McCain's 100 years in Iraq
March 30, 2008 - 12:34 ET by SGriffisI guess Dean, and every other Democrat, has forgotten one of Kerry's many positions on Iraq during the 2004 campaign. During one interview, he was asked how long we should stay in Iraq. Kerry replied that he would stay in Iraq for as long as it takes and spend however much it takes until the job is finished. Is this more, or less, than 100 years?
BTW, his Silver Star was never properly authorized and he has a V device on it which was not authorized. So, Kerry did not earn his Silver Star. In fact, in order to make it look like the Silver Star was authorized, he has three different versions of the citation, the first two of which were improperly issued, the third one of which was fraudulently obtained.
Commander in Chief
March 30, 2008 - 13:25 ET by CobraManSo Howard Dean, a "real" leader of the Democrat party who has absolutely no military experience, is calling on America to elect another Democrat with absolutely no military experience as the Commander in Chief who will make command decisions during a time of war? Yea, right, and I want a fox to be in charge of henhouse security!
fyi: presidents with no
March 30, 2008 - 13:50 ET by crsheddfyi:
presidents with no military experience:
John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland, William Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, and Bill Clinton
So What?
March 30, 2008 - 15:17 ET by Del DolemonteA genuine war hero, John F. Kennedy, totally botched the Bay of Pigs invasion. His predecessor (a Republican war hero) had already devised a plan. Kennedy changed it. This war hero later got us involved in Vietnam. His successor, who also served in the military, escalated said war and over 50,000 young Americans died. HIS successor, who also served in the military, got our troops out of Vietnam.
Meanwhile, Bill Clinton, who never served a day in the military, staged FOUR aircraft carrier photo ops as President. That's 4 times as many as Chimpy.
i was just giving info to
March 30, 2008 - 20:02 ET by crsheddi was just giving info to cobraman in the post that i replied to.
he said the democrats were running two who had no military experience. my point is that we have had several presidents without military experience.
actually, eisenhower, a republican president, sent the first 'advisors' to vietnam on february 12, 1955.
yes, kennedy blew the bay of pigs. but, i think he more than made up for it with the cuban missle crisis.
I don't know...the other
March 30, 2008 - 13:58 ET by balboaI don't know...the other option is an old coot with a temper. Is that better?
Better than either of the
March 30, 2008 - 14:04 ET by fitzfongBetter than either of the two economically illiterate clowns Dean's Democrats have to offer? Absolutely.
Much better
March 30, 2008 - 14:28 ET by CobraManMuch better!
Look at it this way; when it comes to defending your home, would you rather have Grandpa McCain (with a temper) protecting you, or Mommy Clinton and/or Little Brother Obama? Me? I'll choose Grandpa McCain every time. Mommy Clinton would start to cry while Little Brother Obama would run away and hide. Grandpa McCain, on the other hand, will grab the invader by the neck and kick their ass!
Unless the invader turns out
March 30, 2008 - 14:29 ET by balboaUnless the invader turns out to be the paper boy, and now grandpa's put some poor zit-faced 14-year-old in traction.
Invaders
March 30, 2008 - 14:35 ET by CobraManI don't care how old the invader is, someone better be stopping them. If they get hurt, well that that's what happens when you invade my property. Or do you feel that the home is not worth protecting?
BTW, why would a 14-year-old pimply-faced paperboy invade your home? That's rather a lame argument, isn't it?
"BTW, why would a
March 30, 2008 - 15:21 ET by Indiana Joe"BTW, why would a 14-year-old pimply-faced paperboy invade your home? That's rather a lame argument, isn't it?"
Unfortunately, that seems to be de riguer for bal lately.
I'm kind of worried about him.
;^)
My point is that what if the
March 30, 2008 - 18:39 ET by balboaMy point is that what if the threat isn't really a threat? What if they're just talking a good game? And McCain gets mad and acts rashly?
McCain's temper will be a problem.
March 30, 2008 - 20:04 ET by Free StinkerMcCain's temper will be a problem.
It's one of many reaons I won't vote for that jackxss!
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
"zit-faced 14 year old in traction"
March 30, 2008 - 15:44 ET by Delsabal
I am still laughing. Too funny.
computer on and off line today as I am sitting an open house attempting to do my part stimulating the economy.
AND I am stealing the online opprotunity. Guess I am at thief too.
Wonder what grand pa McCain would do to me? lol
2004 election
March 30, 2008 - 14:52 ET by SGriffisDon't forget that four years ago, the Dems insisted that we needed a president with combat experience, John Kerry, who, by the way, served in Vietnam. I guess military experience isn't even a requirement anymore.
To Democrats, Combat
March 30, 2008 - 14:57 ET by Free StinkerTo Democrats, Combat Experience is much like "the truth"
It's "flexible"
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Apparently Hillary's next
March 30, 2008 - 13:55 ET by Jack BauerApparently Hillary's next TV ad has her crying as she reluctantly tells the tale of her storming ashore on D-Day and helping secure Omaha beach.
It's incredibly moving. They're making a movie out of it...
SAVING PRIVATE LYIN'
Seriously, if Democrats want to ensure a McCain victory, just carry on like Dean.
"SAVING PRIVATE
March 30, 2008 - 14:03 ET by Blazer"SAVING PRIVATE LYIN"
LMAO !
' "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.
" The Cake is a lie."
ROTFLMAO!!! I LOVE it!!!
March 30, 2008 - 15:22 ET by Indiana JoeROTFLMAO!!!
I LOVE it!!!
Very good
March 30, 2008 - 18:22 ET by celatorLOL.. very good. I wonder if the movie will also include her single-handed saving Bastogne and leading Russian soldiers as they stormed the Reichstag? I understand there is good footage available.
Americans want a real
March 30, 2008 - 14:02 ET by fitzfongAmericans want a real leader who offers real solutions, not a blatant opportunist who doesn’t understand the economy
Which, by the way, Howie, is exactly why the majority of the country will not be voting for either of the economically illiterate, intellectually deficient, morally bankrupt blatant opportunists that your party's cheeks are about to squeeze out. Stick to the only thing you're good at, douchebag...yelling at old men at town hall meetings.
Ditto Fitz
March 30, 2008 - 14:16 ET by ahusserBut after the name Howie please add the names crshedd, Balboa, Jer, Jason C. and Leon and other unrepentant trolls. The flies at the picnic on this excellent website. Especially crshedd on this blog who seems to particularly hate the military in their particular and usual kneejerk "progessive" way.
You rang? Something wrong?
March 30, 2008 - 14:19 ET by balboaYou rang? Something wrong?
We clearly should all agree
March 30, 2008 - 14:21 ET by sarcasmoOn everything!
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
I'm not sure about Jer, but
March 30, 2008 - 14:32 ET by JasonCI'm not sure about Jer, but Bal, Leon and myself all tend to stick around and discuss our points. I know the definition of troll is malleable, but I don't think it means simply having convictions which are opposite those of the masthead. It might be used to refer to presumptuous jackasses who wildly claim that others hate the military - and on message boards to which not all said others have even posted one way or another.
But hey, if it makes you feel better, it's comments like this that, ultimately, keep me coming back. Finding common ground with reasonable conservatives is rewarding; schooling unhinged conservatives is a blast.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I believe...
March 30, 2008 - 14:35 ET by sarcasmo"Finding common ground with reasonable conservatives is rewarding; schooling unhinged conservatives is a blast."
I'm going to need to steal that line. Thanks. ;)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Go for it; but I expect
March 30, 2008 - 14:42 ET by JasonCGo for it; but I expect full citation.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I know the definition of
March 30, 2008 - 14:36 ET by balboaI know the definition of troll is malleable, but I don't think it means simply having convictions which are opposite those of the masthead.
That's definitely how some people on here define a troll.
yup, and always has been.
March 30, 2008 - 14:45 ET by JasonCyup, and always has been. Fortunately, for every SportPolitics and ahusser, there's a Fitzfong or N. Sheppard or DeeBunk (and others), from whom I actually learn something.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I guess some people just
March 30, 2008 - 14:50 ET by balboaI guess some people just want the only responses to their posts to be "Yes. I agree."
bal
March 30, 2008 - 14:56 ET by botgyes i agree
"Television is where you watch people in your living room that you would not want near your house." Groucho
Who could forget
March 30, 2008 - 14:51 ET by Free StinkerWho could forget SportsPolitics?
What a nutjob that one was.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Oh, LORD! <shakes head>
March 30, 2008 - 15:38 ET by Indiana JoeOh, LORD!
<shakes head>
you're a
March 30, 2008 - 15:42 ET by botgyou're a racist
Sincerely, 'Amabassador' Tumbler
LOL, botg
March 30, 2008 - 16:20 ET by Indiana JoeSo many acronyms, feels like a government project! ;^)
Hey, riddle me this, botg-man: Am I the only one who sees some eerie similarities between our dear departed (?) Tumbler, and the current "truthmonger?" I mean, more than the fundy stuff. Style, phrasing, I've noticed some stuff that really has me wondering.
I J
March 30, 2008 - 16:25 ET by botgnah the Tums would have been all over truthie for dissin' the Roman Catholic Church and to learn to pray to the 'Blessed Mother'
"Television is where you watch people in your living room that you would not want near your house." Groucho
Yeah, thought of that. But,
March 30, 2008 - 16:47 ET by Indiana JoeYeah, thought of that. But, we only know what each of us SAYS our beliefs are, right? Tumbler always sounded more like a bible-thumper than an RC to me. Maybe he converted?
TM is just so similar to Tumbler in other ways. His whole style. But he claims to live in FL, Tums was umm... Wyoming, I think. OTOH, I could claim to live in Nova Scotia, but my handle is a dead give-away. ;^)
I dunno. Just have this funny feeling whenever I read TM's stuff. It's like deja vu all over again (Yogi Berra, bless him).
And here I thought your
March 30, 2008 - 17:08 ET by JasonCAnd here I thought your handle just alluded to a strong affinity for 1980s Harrison Ford films...
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
IJ
March 30, 2008 - 17:17 ET by botga quick review of the Holy War will put your suspicions to rest.
"Television is where you watch people in your living room that you would not want near your house." Groucho
I keep expecting SP to
March 30, 2008 - 15:57 ET by JasonCI keep expecting SP to reincarnate somehow, but so far no new poster has come close to his level of sociopathic bombast. I'm not sure how I feel about it; interfacing with that guy really ran the gamut from amusing to surreal to sad...
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Definition
March 30, 2008 - 18:10 ET by ThisnThat"Finding common ground with reasonable conservatives is rewarding; schooling unhinged conservatives is a blast."
Liberal definition of a reasonable conservative: If you agree with my liberal positions and accept/adopt all my liberal proposals without comment and without exception -- then you're a reasonable conservative.
Liberal definition of an unhinged conservative: Anyone that uses logic and facts to support his argument, and who presents the information without getting all emotional, without swearing, and then making me cry.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
TNT, As someone who has
March 30, 2008 - 18:52 ET by fitzfongTNT,
As someone who has matched wits with Jason C. a number of times, I think you're making a bit of an oversimplification regarding his discussion of reasonable conservatives and unhinged conservatives. Politically, we don't share much common ground, and I believe we're both certain enough of our own individual convictions not to simply concede any of our differing positions to the other. In my experience, the nature of Jason's challenges stems from a "please clarify your position" perspective. When you argue from that position, I think you expect the discussion to essentially end in a stalemate without either person changing his mind...but with a better understanding of where the other person is coming from. With that in mind, a "reasonable" conservative is someone who will make the effort to articulate his or her position and put some thought into the response. An "unhinged" conservative is someone who dismisses the challenge out-of-hand and reverts to labelling the challenger a "troll".
What he said.
March 30, 2008 - 19:05 ET by JasonCWhat he said.
(Thanks, Fitz)
I'm not sure how TnT came to his particular conclusion here. By unhinged I meant SportPolitics, RJ, maybe Blonde when the Gators lose; those who won't accept the most basic argument or statement that doesn't fit their pre-fab conception of what liberal is or should be.
A conservative who accepted all of my liberal arguments without any sort of rebuttal or challenge wouldn't be much of a conservative, would he/she? Fortunately, that's not much of a problem on NB. By reasonable, I mean one who can show me where I might be wrong or argumentatively overstepping without saying things like "You obviously just hate the troops." Rejoinders such as that automatically relegate one to the other category.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
JasonC why can't I be part of the gang?
March 30, 2008 - 19:11 ET by shawn228sniff sniff, you guys forgot about me? Can't I be part of the liberal club?
Funny how TNT criticizeds liberals, but when I had the pleasure to debat him the other day, his strongest debating points were "calling me a liberal piqsqueek and saying his standards are better and mine are worse and to get used to it.
Take it up with that
March 30, 2008 - 19:13 ET by JasonCTake it up with that baiting troll ahusser. My guess is you just don't hate the military enough <sarc off>.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
jasonc
March 30, 2008 - 19:15 ET by shawn228Pop Tech nevers calls anyone names either huh? lol
I'm not familiar with
March 30, 2008 - 19:22 ET by JasonCI'm not familiar with his/her work.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Sorry, Jason, but Leon is a
March 30, 2008 - 18:46 ET by Roger the ShrubberSorry, Jason, but Leon is a baiting troll, who tosses the chum in the water on the open thread, using kneejerk topics that he knows will piss of the the NB "regulars", baiting them into what ends up being Leon's insecure and immature attempt to show everybody just how much smarter he is than the rest of us here, but usually messes up by using extremes, absolutes, and leaves this board looking like a jackass.
Lumping yourself and Bal in the same category as Leon is no compliment. For you or Bal. And, like you, schooling unhinged Liberals like Leon, Crshedd, et al, is is blast, too. Sometimes even you have fallen into that category. Not often, but occasionally.
R to the S...
March 30, 2008 - 18:54 ET by JasonCI don't agree with all of Leon's opinions or tactics, but I think he's spot on quite a bit. He's an okay guy, really. I'd say exactly the same of you. Maybe that's why you and he get into such epic verbal brawls. C'est la vie...
If there's one thing to be said about Leon it's that he doesn't run and hide when his points are challenged; and quite frankly, I don't think his politics are all that hard-left, he's just adamant about defending them and using examples that, particularly for conservatives are, shall we say, impolitic.
As to your very last statement, I will swallow my pride and refrain from arguing. Though I do think that most of the times you've done so have been when I've stuck my nose into a thread that didn't involve me in order to try and toss out some bon mots zinger; always a good way to get smacked down.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Leon ends up falling into
March 30, 2008 - 20:15 ET by Roger the ShrubberLeon ends up falling into the same old trap, though. He makes grandiose statements, using absolutes (a no-no for anybody who ever took Debating 101), and then "moves the goal posts", etc... It's not that Leon is "hard-left"; he suffers from a serious case of BDS, regardless of his protestations. Everything ends up going back to Bush, unless it's simple religion-baiting (like Friday with his weird anti-Christian rant).
No, Leon comes here with one motive: piss everybody off. He looks down upon the Conservatives at this wesite (he did tell you we were a simple folk just a few days ago, right?), and feels it's necessary for him to "learn" us some. Unfortunately, many people here end up taking him to the cleaners.
Jason, you and I have had our differences, and you and I have had our moments of zen, too. you are DEFINITELY not in Leon's category, nor is Jer or Bal. You are good people.
ahusser, I don't who crshedd
March 30, 2008 - 14:48 ET by fitzfongahusser, I don't who crshedd is and I've had very few, if any, encounters with Leon (probably because I don't often find myself reading the same posts on this site that he does...just a theory). That said, I disagree with your characterization of Balboa, Jer and Jason C. as "unrepentant trolls". I've had my disagreements with each of them in the past, but they've always come across as respectful and challenging rather than anything else. I, for one, think they add something to the site, as they give people like me the opportunity to sharpen my debating skills by having to consider other sides of the argument. I've never found myself changing my beliefs because of a discussion with Balboa, Jer or Jason C., but I have found myself to be more well-rounded and confident in my positions for having accepted the challenges that they have presented.
In defense of balboa
March 30, 2008 - 15:36 ET by Indiana JoeBal's okay. I've wrangled with him from time to time. All in good fun. He'll usually let go of an untenable argument, rather than cling to a straw in a hurricane.
I consider a "troll" to be one who finds one little perceived "discrepancy" in an argument, and tries to shoe-horn some "greater truth" through it. Or, more accurately maybe, someone who just tosses out some incendiary comment and runs and hides. We seem to have a new one lately, goes by Angry African. Haven't seen him actually debate anything yet.
Crshedd was one of my first encounters here, a 2nd Amendment thread. He kept saying "militia, militia, militia." Cited a SCOTUS case. I quoted from his own link, explained the finding to him as I read it (completely opposite his point), and he ended up saying we "agreed"... "miltia, militia, militia!" I finally gave up. But at least he didn't degenerate into name calling, like so many true trolls do.
"...someone who just tosses
March 30, 2008 - 16:23 ET by Roger the Shrubber"...someone who just tosses out some incendiary comment and runs and hides..."
You almost have Leon described to a "T", except for the obligatory "What? I'm not being incendiary!" protests...
Meanwhile, ahusser, the guy
March 30, 2008 - 17:05 ET by JasonCMeanwhile, ahusser, the guy who got this whole off-topic ball rolling, is nowhere to be found. We know what that means...
Troll!!!!
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Not necessarily
March 30, 2008 - 18:13 ET by ThisnThatMay be that he just got tired of waiting on the opinion poll / talking-point-lookup results before a response was made to his comments?
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
I know you're being
March 30, 2008 - 19:20 ET by JasonCI know you're being sarcastic (and so was I, actually), but 3 minutes elapsed between ahusser's remarks and Bal's response. A mere 13 minutes more before I jumped in. And his comments were clearly calculated to rouse us to fight back.
Hey ahusser, you might make a good Democrat - what with your cut-and-run skills!
Thank you, I'll be here all week.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Yeah -- just forgot to use
March 30, 2008 - 21:43 ET by ThisnThatYeah -- just forgot to use the /sarc identifier. But, truth is a lot of us can't really stay on for long periods at a time, so often it's nothing but a matter of short-term visits which, unfortunately, prevent a good discussion. Then, by the time we're back, "jumping in" often doesn't seem appropriate -- but reading all the comments is enjoyable.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
it's nice to be remembered
March 30, 2008 - 20:18 ET by crsheddit's nice to be remembered joe.
i still hold to my belief about the militia, but i found that you made sound arguments.
Those kind words of support are appreciated, fitz
March 30, 2008 - 18:57 ET by JerThose kind words of support are much appreciated, fitz. Actually, I have made a concerted effort to stay on your "good side" since witnessing the polemical shredding you performed on that hapless British lad several months ago. Remember?....The supercilious, Oxford-educated, self-annointed "genius" was reduced to a pathetic, whimpering knave who quickly disappeared into the unknown realms of cyberspace.
By the way, I thought "liberalism" was firmly engrained within the genetic profile of every English major. What happened? We could use you on our side.
Jer
Wow, where/when did this
March 30, 2008 - 19:10 ET by JasonCWow, where/when did this happen? I wanna see...
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
JasonC...I'm not talking to
March 30, 2008 - 19:25 ET by JerJasonC...I'm not talking to you since you virtually threw me under the troll bus earlier in the thread.
Okay, okay...I'll see if I can find it. But there are too few of us here to cultivate dissension within the ranks.
Jer
Jer, my apologies. When I
March 30, 2008 - 19:32 ET by JasonCJer, my apologies. When I said I wasn't sure, I didn't mean that I was on the fence about whether you were a troll, but that I'm not familiar enough with your posts to say either way. I didn't want to fall into some rhetorical trap ahusser might have been laying. If someone had asked me, before this thread got rolling, if you were one of the rarefied liberals on this site, I honestly wouldn't have known; we simply haven't really interacted in the past. Consider the olive branch extended...
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
JasonC...Olive branch
March 30, 2008 - 20:08 ET by JerJasonC...Olive branch accepted of course. But, good grief, I've been regularly posting here for about ten months now. One would think you would have accidently stumbled over a comment or two and gleaned that I'm a center-left Democrat.
I have probably read 90% of the comments by NB's resident "liberals"--it doesn't take much time. I remember your "coming out" post where you acknowledged having been "coy" about your political leanings in the past but were now admitting your liberal/progressive bona fides. [You also were the author of maybe the only word I have encountered at NB about which I was utterly clueless: "portmanteau" or something like that. BTW, what is the meaning of the word? I never looked it up.]
Anyway...thanks for the apology. And you are a very talented writer.
Jer
Thanks, Jer. That's
March 30, 2008 - 20:06 ET by fitzfongThanks, Jer. That's really kind of you to say. And thank you for bringing that encounter from last year up. It's very encouraging to be remembered. I think the guy's name was Sir Thomas (being the son of Irish immigrants, the self-knighting may have gotten my back up at the time). I'd love to say that I took a page from the Jim Brown "act like you've been there before" book after that particular battle. But I grew up with memories of Reggie Jackson standing at home plate to admire the Game 6 Bob Welch pitch he had dispatched into the right field pavillion at Dodger Stadium in the 1978 World Series...so I returned to the scene on more than a few occasions in the subsequent days. As I think of it now, I'm reminded of little Ralphie Parker's Red Rider rifle theme in "A Christmas Story"...before I get too self-satisfied, I should remind myself that he only got a C+. I don't believe I've seen Sir Thomas since.
Strangely enough, I started out as a Journalism Major within the Communications Department in College. However, when I was a Freshman, the school decided to eliminate Journalism as a major. So I drifted around the Communications Department as an Unde