Brent Bozell Warns McCain In Sunday Washington Post Op-Ed

Photo of Tim Graham.
By Tim Graham | March 9, 2008 - 09:39 ET

Sleepy-eyed people inside the Beltway may see L. Brent Bozell at the top of the Sunday Outlook section in The Washington Post and think the world's turned upside down. But the Post asked Brent to write a message to John McCain from conservatives. Message: "Think real conservatives will vote for John McCain? Don't count on it." It means don't take us for granted.

But on the Post website Sunday morning, a slightly different version emerged on the home page, as if Brent said McCain was toast: "If you think real conservatives will vote for John McCain, think again." Here's the thesis of Brent's article:

I know the conservative movement. I've been in the trenches fighting for an alphabet soup of conservative causes for 30 years. I've raised hundreds of millions of dollars for it. And I earnestly hope that McCain isn't listening to the advice he's getting from these folks. Their thinking betrays a fundamental misreading of the conservative pulse in America today.

Conservative leaders, particularly those in talk radio, cannot and will not be silent. They will not betray their principles and their audiences. Tens of millions of activists turn to them for guidance. These activists could be, and need to be, McCain's ground troops, but unless and until conservatives believe him -- and believe in him -- they will not work for his election. McCain may have the Beltway crowd in his corner, but grass-roots conservatives aren't sold.

Yet through his surrogates, McCain is attacking these leaders. This is beyond folly. It is political suicide.

For 20 years, the moderate establishment of the Republican Party has told conservatives to sit down, shut up and do as we're told. History shows that sometimes we bite the bullet. But not always. I absolutely guarantee that this year we cannot be taken for granted. This is a movement fed up with betrayals, and they've come one after the other.

Inside, the headline is "Time to Find His Inner Reagan."

Read the whole thing, of course.

—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center

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WOW! That is one of Mr.

WOW! That is one of Mr. Bozell's best columns ever!

Unlike this, from Mark Helperin (emphasis added):

"Rather than playing recklessly with electoral politics by sabotaging their own party," he wrote, "each of these compulsive talkers might be a tad less self-righteous, look to the long run, discipline himself, suck it up, and be a man."

Mr. Bozell puts the onus squarely where it belongs...on the self-righteous Sen. McCain, to unite the party by proving himself worthy of their loyalty, for reasons other than the "R" after his name.

Edit at 10:45

Clarification: the "compulsive talkers" Halperin was referring to were Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, et al, who criticize McCain.

 

 

You're so right mb,

the left gets so "annoyed" at the right talkers, it forgets that the right is the side that wants to restrict talking and talks with the foul mouth.

If MaCain wants to "reach across the aisle" to get things done, the only reason he should do so, is to "b" slap those dummies to get things going for the rest of us.

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V

the right is the side that

the right is the side that wants to restrict talking and talks with the foul mouth.

HUH?

Mirror image

read the sides wrong. I was right, just that I was wrong in saying right - meant LEFT. It's Sunday, my mind is on holiday, my noodle needs to be  . . .

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V

I kinda thought that's what

I kinda thought that's what you meant to say...then I was wondering if you meant it as sarcasm....I know the Sunday thing...LOL

Uh, yeah, that's right...

FastEd,

I've been known to do the same & got trounced. I understand what you were trying to say...You're trying to disparage the left not the right. I'll give you a 'mulligan'.

Syrius

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

I'll

take it! - thanks for seeing what I meant, and not for what I said - been listening to the libs so long, I got temp confused. My allergies are acting up, I'm allergic to NOT working.

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V

Brent Bozell .. he shoots,

Brent Bozell .. he shoots, he scores. Superb analysis.

But has McCain got his hearing aid switched up to 11?

Vote 4 change. Vote 4 anything. See Jack & Mr Shy's first campaign ad for the ONLY viable 3rd party candidate.

My sediments exactly!

Brent's analysis of McCain is right on the money! I know he is a shoo-in now as the Republican nominee but I am still not completely sold on him. 

Over the years I have followed his political career I have often wondered what party he was affiliated with because of his wishy-washy approach to issues. Unfortunately, the national RP has bought into this just like many democrats are buying into the empty promises and lies of Osama Bama and Shmillary.

As a conservative, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on McCain.  He had better prove himself in the coming months as not only sympathetic to the conservative causes, but will be in there fighting for us with solid views. 

The saying goes: "Tell a lie long enough and people will eventually believe it".  The democrats are doing this and whipping their cult following into a baseless political frenzy. Unless McCain begins to demonstrate a firm foundation on issues that will get us back on track, we might as well be voting for the democratic lies. It will be the same effect!

"Yeah! That's the ticket!" - Tommy Flanagan

 

The political parties have taken on a life of their own

Originally they were formed as a way for like minded people to band together to emphasize their message and ideals. Now it seems that the "Party" is more important than the reason it was formed. There are many saying that the idiology should take a back seat to what is "good-for-the-pary", as if the Party, as an institution, is more important than any philosophy or message. This is pure demogougery. If the group that you belong to veers away from your beliefs then it is time to leave the group, not change your beliefs.

The republican party saw this begin in 1999 when a Texas Governor was put forth as the Party's "leader" not because of his conservative philosophy and credentials, but because he was the son of a former President. Now we are being told that a moderate populist is to be our "leader" and we should all shut up and take it "for the good of the Party". I will not. I am a conservative, not a Republican. Political parties have been formed and disbanded in the past and it will happen again. The Republican party has decided that getting Republican's elected is more important than electing people who believe in conservative principles.

Ambassador Alan Keyes has won the Constitution Party''s online poll for whom they should nominate as their 3rd party candidate. It wasn't even close. I urge all conservatives to support Amb. Keyes and to vote your conscience. Vote for someone who actually holds your principles and lives your ideology, not someone who happens to be a member of some group that begins with an "R". Voting for the "lesser of two evils" is still a vote for evil.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

C5then, Is this kind of

C5then,

Is this kind of pointless squabbling really what we
want to see? We're talking about electing the president of the United
States.

Syrius

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

I don't see your point.

I don't see your point. What "pointless squabbling" are you talking about? C5 made a good point about a possible voting option for those who believe the ideology is more important than the Party.

Or are you advocating that conservatives vote for McCain as the lesser of two evils? Is the discussion of alternatives the "pointless squabbling" of which you speak?

My bad...

IJ,

I forgot to put quotation marks on the quote and cite the author-

Alan Keyes...

Syrius

 

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

Syrius...

Ah!

So you were quoting Keyes in re the "pointless squabbling?"

Understood.

IJ

Mr Bozell is right on but....

trying to "make" John McRino into what he clearly is not (a conservative), will not work. Why on earth would he reverse course to working with conservatives, when he really NEVER has in the past?

You can put an "I'm a conservative" sign on a pig, but it is still just a pig, as much as you may wish for it to be something else.

Hold your nose and vote for the "less horrible" candidate? great. what a world what a world...

RE: Mr Bozell is right on but....

You are correct, but should Sen McCain make any effort to give true conservatives a substainial place at the table, most conservatives would vote for him. However, Sen McCain seems intent on telling coservatives that they should join him but to go to the rear of the bus and shut up.

 

VOTE REPUBLICAN

Ok, Ok, Ok nice talk BUT..this isn't a Republican Election

This isn't a Republican Election, we have opponents in the form of Democrats, we have independents, and we have a National Presidential Election. 

How does one UNITE a diverse group of People across America ?

Well, Obama is showing us one method.  He is Uniting on lack of substance, and Hope for Change, and he promises to make whatever bugs you now, will go away.  To Quote him "I will stop this War".   But he never tells us how.  Is it by Retreat or Winning ?    

A Republican with History and Baggage from 20 yrs in the Senate has a lot of particulars that one can talk about, and since there are lots of planks in McCains 20 yr. platform history, you can't get 10 Republicans in a Room that will agree with McCain on ALL issues.

Whereas.... Obama has no History, and gets his 10 people in the Room to agree on Hope and Change, without defining anything in Detail. 

The President Vetoes, he does NOT Legislate.  Republicans need to WIN the Presidential Election, BECAUSE we are in deep do do with a Democratic Majority Congress, and a Democratic President.  It's about McCains platform, it's about Conservative principles, and as far as Betrayals go........How many Betrayed Conservative principles will fall under Obama Clinton, Compared to McCain ? ?    

A stay at home and don't vote pouting conservative republican becomes equal to a 20 yr. old High School dropout too busy watching MTV to vote. . . . . and each impacts the presidential Election equally.    

Uniting Republicans

Barack is a perfect example of how not to unite our citizens . Barack is impressing mindless voters who don't know constitutional government from applesauce. He is talking to those citizens who have been sticking their heads in the sand since the 60's and younger brain dead groupies who think a touchy feely platform will save mankind.

Conservatives should not be intimidated by those who want to lay a guilt trip on them for not supporting McCain. McCain is not just obstinate he is devious and duplicitous. This guy is a back alley actor who in spite of his limited intellectual skills thinks he is sharp. This is laughable.

In the past the Republican establishment has foisted second hand candidates on the party and conservatives have worked for them because they at least had a small amount of  conservative posturing about them some where. McCain is a different animal. He has shown by association with the likes of Feingold, Kennedy, Kerry, and other backstabbing radical Democrats that he is not adverse to sleeping with the enemy and enjoying it.

McCain may convince conservatives he is the real thing, but how does a lemon become an orange in 8 months? We have survived FDR, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford,  Carter, Billy Boy, and both Bushes. If  we get Obama or Hill we will survive them also no matter what they throw at us.

Edward...  "McCain may

Edward...

 "McCain may convince conservatives he is the real thing..."

He's going to have tough time pulling that off. I'm sure he will get all party loyalists, but real conservatives is going to be tricky for him. Too many of us know him too well, and we don't like what we know.

In the long run I think it will be Democrat voters that will put him in the WH. Especially southern democrats.

"Abstain from McCain"

Ct... I agree with you, a

Ct...

I agree with you, a leopard doesn't change his spots, and McCain isn't going to either...no matter what comes out of his moderate well modulated phony mouth.

The so-called Independents (which I am registered as before it became the in thing to do...lol) and dems will be putting him in, not the conservatives...not so far anyway that I can see.

»→ bigtimer

Even a multimillion person march on the White House wouldn't get McAin up off his dead butt to close the borders.  Anyone expecting much in matters of National Security or taxpayer relief are dreaming.

♣ a seal

Mb

Boy do I agree with you. I am so conflicted. I do not want the democrats to win but if McCain put Crist on his ticket, i cannot vote for him.

I will not stay home but i won't cast a vote for President for the first time in my life.

Crist torpedoed Romney in our state by giving his endorsement prior to our primary instead of after it was held.

I am so pisssss ed off

Mark F. posted on this back

Mark F. posted on this back in February...

 

David Frum, on Tucker Carlson's show hit the nail on the head regarding McCain's problem with his party...when asked why Republicans don't seem to love McCain, Frum said (Carlson's replies and breaks omitted):

People tend not to love those who don't love them back.

John McCain has made it very clear over the last half-dozen years: he does not love the Republican party. He'll put up with it. He'll tolerate it. If they will follow him he will consent to lead them. But he does not love this party, and the party knows it. Plus there are the substantive issues, of which immigration is far and away the most important; it is a hugely important issue...

McCain doesn't just try to explain to the party why he disagrees. His method is to explain to the party why not only does he disagree, but they are racist and wrong and stupid for thinking the way they do, and people never like that.

He's not interested in the project of saving conservatism in the Republican party. He is really trying to build a personal movement with the Republican party as its vehicle. (emphasis mine)

Mr. Bozell is making it clear that Sen. McCain has to make some moves; not the rest of the party.

McCain can't make up for lost conservatives with moderates and swing-voters (they will more likely go Democrat in the general election). So he needs to decide if he wants to be a "maverick" or be President.

MB, Frum indeed "hit the

MB,

Frum indeed "hit the nail on the head." And your closing question nails what bothers me at this point in the race:

"So he needs to decide if he wants to be a "maverick" or be President."

If he wants to be President, as he plainly does, wouldn't he be willing to say anything to get the "conservative" vote? I think for him to suddenly "discover" some conservative "core beliefs" within himself would be pretty hard for me to swallow. Which would be the "real" John McCain? Talk about "flip-flopping!"

I don't believe conservatives have a horse in this race (unless you count Keyes). Republicans do. 

You're right..I sometimes

You're right..I sometimes think he needs to give a speech in which he acknowledges his failures and commits to act least acting, if not thinking, more like a conservative, but I don't think he would be believed at this point if he did it. After all, he said "I'll build the g-d fence if they want it!!" more as a temper tantrum than a change of heart conviction.

That's why I think he doesn't have a prayer of being elected. Whether that's a bad thing, I'm not sure. I'm more worried right now about a Democrat president with a Democrat-controlled Congress enacting everything he/she wants.

I'm just sick over this, but don't know what we can do about it.

 

Y'know, Mb, it's kind of

Y'know, Mb, it's kind of funny. Your quote of McCain about the "G-D fence" actually strikes me as more what a "representative government" should be about: politicians doing what their constituents want them to do, rather than what they want to do. LOL

Of course, our voices aren't heard on every issue, which is why we want reps that think like us on most issues.

Btw, don't be too "sick" about it. We will survive this. Chin up, and all that. Hey, I never did find that forum that someone was setting up about being bummed by this election cycle. Got a link?

You are absolutely right,

You are absolutely right, regarding the "if that's what they want!" That's the way it's supposed to be!

And you're right, we will survive. My concern is what our country will look like in 8 years.

Indy Joe

I think this may be the link you are looking for.

Consequences of a Point of View

What does it mean, to throw away your vote rather than vote for John McCain?  Note please that I do not consider those who vote for Obama or Hillary out of conviction as throwing away their vote. They are misguided, but not at all in the same category as someone who doesn't vote, votes for a third party candidate, or votes for the democrat candidate out of spite. Why would someone want to do that? Let's look at the reasons given by posters here.

 1.   Never again will I vote for a RINO, beacuse I will just keep getting RINOs to vote for. This can otherwise be stated as I'll only vote for someone with whom I'm 100% in agreement.
 2.   After four years of socialistic democrat rule, the country will be ready for another republican revolution. The alternate expression of this one is let's teach the nation a lesson.

Both reasons demonstrate a skewed version of the dynamics of our presidential election politics, and a total ignorance or disregard of how the American voters are distributed.

In the first case, where you will only vote for someone who agrees with you 100%, you're waiting for the next Ronald Reagan. Look at Edward Cropper's list above. It appears he never met a president he liked, other than Uncle Ronnie, and a lot of posters here state the same. Why would you want another massive world-wide standoff, a repeat of the cold war? Why would you want to couple that with another Carter type presidency, that must end with hundreds or thousands of your fellow citizens held captive, tortured, and/or killed randomly for an extended period, in excess of a year?

That's what you're asking for, when you demand the election of a Ronald Reagan conservative, along with one more qualification - he must have personality plus, be affable, likeable, and a father figure with whom most of the country can identify. Given all three of those qualifications, and another polar conservative candidate can be elected. Given only two of them, and it becomes unlikely; given only one, it is virtually impossible. The reasons are simple, but you need to look at the American electorate as a whole to understand. So let's do that, in a one dimensional left versus right manner, starting with just the liberal/conservative line.

The line to which I refer is simple, the 100% liberal position is at the left end, and the 100% conservative position is at the right end. While the population will be spread more or less evenly along the line, there will come a point, moving from left to right, that ends hard core liberalism and starts moderation; likewise, there will come a point where the moderates end and hard core conservatism starts. These points are at 20 and 67 for self-admission. Simply speaking, 20% of the electorate consider themselves liberal, and 33% consider themselves conservative.

Wow! It should be a slam dunk for a 100% conservative candidate. All we need to do is nominate one, and bang! He gets elected and all is right in the world. Let the chips fall where they may, because even if the moderate slice goes 60%:40% for the liberal, the conservative guy still wins, 52% to 48%.

But then reality rears its ugly head. As has been noted on this site numerous times, liberals even lie to themselves! It turns out that despite what they really are, that is, liberal, 47% will claim to be moderate. (In fairness, some conservatives do the same, but only 5% of conservatives misrepresent themselves as moderate.) The true breaks come at 37 and 61, meaning 37% of the electorate is really liberal, and 39% are really conservative, with a moderate faction of a mere 24%. Whoa! The battle for supremacy is clearly now within the moderate faction, where to give anything away is almost a deathblow to one extreme or the other. A 50% split among the moderates now provides a slim victory for the conservatives, but requires 100 % of the base to be behind the candidate.

A reasonable assumption must now be made in order to continue the analysis. Let's assume that if all outside forces are equal, and the candidates are perfectly equal except for ideology, then each will gather exactly 50% of the vote cast, centered on their own personal position on the electorate belief line. Let's now place two candidates, A and B, on the line, mark off 25 points to either side, and see where this assumption takes us.

Let's be clear about what the band signifies. Someone inside the band of an individual candidate will vote for the candidate. If a voter is within the bands of multiple candidates, then his vote is either a tossup, or predicated on other influences. If the voter falls outside the band towards an end, then the vote could go to the candidate anyway, be withheld, or go to a third party candidate. Where the vote actually goes is immaterial, because the battle for supremacy is being waged over the group between the two candidates, not in the outer fringes. There is a caveat to this, in that the votes from the outer fringes can increase the margin of win for the other candidate, if the nearest ideological candidate has sufficient negatives.

That all important band between the two major party candidates is a tossup. It is virtually impossible to guarantee which way they will vote, because they are so volatile, but even so, they are in play only if they are within the band of both candidates! With that in mind, let's apply these principles to the conservative dream candidate wanted by those who complain most vociferously about RINOs.

The Ronald Reagan candidate finds himself backed up on the right end of the spectrum. For him, that 50% band of guaranteed votes is only 25%, because the right 25% of the idealogical base is off the line! In general, he can push that 25% on his left side towards the center somewhat. He has, after all, 39% that consider themselves conservatives, and so can push his vote total out towards that point, understanding that the closer the voter is to that breakpoint, the less likely it is he will vote for our dream candidate.

So, with only ideology working, our dream candidate will gather about 40% of the vote, and the libs will have a landslide, as long as their candiate isn't also sitting on that left end. And in this race, this year, depending on whom you believe, the Democrat candiates are left, yes, but not that left! They sit between 8/9 to 15/27. Even against Hillary or Obama the conservative dream candidate loses, because there are no outside forces driving the election one way or the other.

Four years from now, eight years from now, even 12 or 16, the only way the candidate desired herein will be elected is for there to be major outside influences pushing the election. The elections will always revolve around the centrist candidates, fighting over those moderate votes. You want those outside influences, you say. You want your fellow citizens to die, so you can say "I stood on my principles! You got what you deserved!" Because that's what it will take for you to get your way.

And remember, the ones who die so needlessly, will not all be those who voted for the opposition. A lot of those deaths will be people who believe in the many same things you do. Be prepared to face those spirits on your death bed, to look them in the eye and say, "I'm sorry you had to die, but it was more important that people see things my way."

I really don't think they'll understand your point of view.

V/R
Clyde 

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

WOW! Well, CG, you seem

WOW!

Well, CG, you seem to have this all figured out. But I must humbly disagree with you on several points. I'm not a poli-sci major, and I won't crunch numbers. But I'll go by numbers for the points.

1. I don't agree that a vote for a "third-party" candidate is "throwing your vote away." Nothing says we can only have two parties, and it's not written in stone that they must be Democrat and Republican. Since we started with Federalists and Whigs (I think), our modern parties must have been "third parties" at some point.

2. I also don't think conservatives are looking for someone with whom they "agree 100%." That's a childish expectation. I don't even know any conservatives (myself included) who agreed "100%" with George Bush. There's a big difference between complete agreement and agreement on fundamentals.

3. I don't understand at all your premise that we need to re-create the Cold War and the Iranian hostage crisis in order to elect a Reaganite conservative. By that logic, we could never elect another great orator like Lincoln unless we re-introduced slavery.

4. As for all the number-crunching, I'll admit my eyes just kind of glazed over. I've heard it put more simply: roughly 40% of the country will go liberal, roughly 40% conservative. The battle is for the 20% of "moderates." Now, this may strike you as simplistic, but, as they say, the only numbers that count are on Election Day.

Honestly, your post sounds like a political strategist who is only interested in a candidate winning the election. There seems to be no consideration about which candidate, or their philosophy or principles. Sounds like you're handicapping a horse race. Based on the subject line of your post, I guess you're against people having a "Point of View." 

I can vote for the candidate I choose, and NOT ask anyone to die for it, thank you. And I can freely NOT LIKE any candidate, based on my principles, or their lack thereof. And if the Republican party wants to spend another 40 years in the wilderness, that's up to them. I don't owe them my vote.

IJ... Hear! Hear! You

IJ...

Hear! Hear!

You just spoke volumes for me...I wished I could post as well as you just did.

Just wanted to say thanks.

Hope you get this, I am having trouble with this site so far today...dang it all anyway...lol. 

IJ, I agree with you on

IJ, I agree with you on this:

Nothing says we can only have two parties, and it's not written in stone that they must be Democrat and Republican. Since we started with Federalists and Whigs (I think), our modern parties must have been "third parties" at some point.

Who knows, the third party (Let's call it the Conservative Party, just for kicks) could be the one that prevails. By that I mean, imagine enough Republicans switch to the Conservative Party that over time, the current Republican Party dies out to the point that the 2 parties are Democratic and Conservative, with the Republican party being the odd one out.

And I agree with you that we don't need a conservative with whom we agree 100%. But we would like some kind of conservative.

But I disagree with you on the 40-40-20. I don't think those last
20% are "moderates." I think they are "undecideds" who could go either
way at the last minute, and quite possibly on a whim.

Mb, "Moderates" or

Mb,

"Moderates" or "undecideds," it's really all the same to me. They're the fence-sitters, IMO. I think they're people who don't have strong convictions on some or all of the issues.

Anymore, I think the pundits almost use the terms interchangeably. But "moderates" is more flattering than "undecided," when they're being wooed. LOL 

IJ

Magnitude of Forces

"I don't agree that a vote for a "third-party" candidate is "throwing your vote away." "

:o) No matter how you slice it, voting for a third party candidate in a two party system is throwing your vote away. Only if your candidate has a reasonable expectation of winning the election is it not thrown away. I detailed in another post a couple of weeks ago why we'll never have a viable third party in this country. As for our current parties having been third parties at one time....not really so. The current Republican party sprang from portions of the two major parties existing in 1854, and the remainders, both of which had the word 'democrat' in their names,  joined together as the Democrat party.

"I also don't think conservatives are looking for someone with whom they "agree 100%"

Sure could fool me reading posts here, where not being Reagan enough is a badge of dishonor, lol. Regardless, the purpose of my post was to demonstrate that a Reagan conservative cannot win, unless the democrats are as foolish as they normally are.

"I don't understand at all your premise that we need to re-create the Cold War and the Iranian hostage crisis in order to elect a Reaganite conservative."

Those are the magnitudes of outside forces required to overcome Ronald Reagan sitting on the end of the spectrum. Without such forces he never would have been elected. Just look at the election results from 1980 to see what I mean. Despite all of Carter's personal negatives and the outside influences mentioned, he barely eeked a 50.8% victory.

"...they say, the only numbers that count are on Election Day."

Absolutely correct, and all I've done is try to show from where those election day numbers come.

"...I guess you're against people having a "Point of View."

Not at all. I merely want people to not only realize that points of view have consequences, but also what those consequences are. As for discussing principles, or philosophical differences, that's for another post. This one was quite long enough just trying to show the mathematical impossiblity of what is asked for here in, over, and over, and over.

"I can vote for the candidate I choose, and NOT ask anyone to die for it, thank you..."

No you cannot. No matter who you vote for, you are asking someone to die for your beliefs. The only question that pertains is the one with which I closed. When you die, will you be able to look those who died for your beliefs in the eye, and explain to them why you were right, and their death necessary.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

V/R
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

Clyde... Your posts on

Clyde...

Your posts on this subject sound exactly like what a party loyalist would say. Perhaps you think those of us that will vote our own way are not worthy, and if this is true, then you are either knowingly, or unknowingly pushing us further away.

Principles should always come before party! 

"Abstain from McCain"

»→ Clear

Bush Sr got punished by HR Perot for not being more fiscally conservative, and Al Gore lost a lot of votes to Captain Corvair.

Third parties serve as a parasite.  If the host does not get treated, it gets held back until it heals or fails.

♣ a seal

I like "punisher"

Better than parasite. April 15th's coming up soon, so it's gonna be hard to convince me that the 2 "major" parties aren't the actual parasites, but if you think you can manage it, give it a try! My ears are open...
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

»→ OK, sarc

I can go with punisher too.  I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense but rather that the 3rd party candidate siphons off support from the candidate who should be carrying that torch.

♣ a seal

Sarc, I think you'd

Sarc,

I think you'd consider ANY party a "parasite," no? Not that I'm disagreeing with you. But better a small parasite, right? Just out of curiosity,when did you give up on the Republicans? I can't imagine you were EVER a Democrat, lol.

I'm still registered "R"

But that's just inertia, and if I could easily change it I'd have probably gone back to "No Party Affiliation" or Libertarian by now, depending on the variety of junkmail I wanted that day.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Clear

I disagree.

I'm in the "gonna do it" camp.  I suspect Clyde is just doing what he always does....lay out a clear, cogent, logical argument.

I happen to agree with him, and I'm hoping that those of you who are still furious with McCain will at least set aside your anger and rethink your positions.

Nothing more, nothing less.   We all have to do what we have to do.

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

Hey, Blonde

I'm probably going to do it, too. Clyde DOES make a lot of sense, it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way how he defined "wasted" votes.

I dunno, though. As someone said in this thread, if you keep eating sh*t sandwiches, they'll keep making them. It seems to me we need a viable SECOND party, coz these jokers are getting too similar for my tastes. Another choice between bad and worse.

On the upside, it looks like our local Dems may actually matter in the primaries this year!     ;^)

Hi Blonde... I understand

Hi Blonde...

I understand and respect other people's position, I just hope they return the favor.

To tell you the truth, I started out saying I would NOT vote at all, then changed it to voting by using the write-in option. And I was doing it because of my strongly held principles. At first, everyone that was upset with my stand was afraid that it would take a vote away from their candidate, so I could see why people were putting on the pressure. But now I see no reason why people should be trying to convert me, and I have very good reasons to say this...

Something I had not counted on a couple of months ago, was how many Southern Democrats will be voting for McCain. And from what I can tell so far, they will either equal, or outnumber those of us that cannot vote for McCain. So for the moment, I see no reason why anyone should try to convert me or others like me.

This election season has really opened my eyes to the GOP, and right now McCain is the big cheese for the GOP and this really disgusts me. As I have said before.... in November I will be writing-in my candidate of choice. Then a few days after the election I will be quitting the GOP. No more money, and no more votes will they get from me. The only way they can win me back is by once again embracing conservatism. 

"Abstain from McCain"

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish

"Your posts on this subject sound exactly like what a party loyalist would say."

(lol...reminds me of how my wife and I supported Tommy Thompson's re-elction bid in '98 here in Wisconsin - then we met the man at a breakfast, and that was the end of that. He fairly reeked of untrustworthiness.) That's the co-incidence of being correct, I guess. My points certainly do not come from Republican talking points, but from a rational consideration of facts and effects.

"Perhaps you think those of us that will vote our own way are not worthy..."

Your choice of words, not mine. I have said before, and will repeat here - if you vote for an unelectable candidate, to prove a point, you are being penny wise, and pound foolish. If you feel unworthy (of what I'm not certain) for doing that, then I guess in your eyes, you are.

V/R
Clyde 

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

"Only if your candidate has

"Only if your candidate has a reasonable expectation of winning the election is it not thrown away."

Again, winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing? I vote for the candidate whose beliefs most closely mirror my own. If one of the "viable" candidates meets that criteria, so be it. If enough people agree, that candidate is elected. As far as I'm concerned, ANY vote cast is not "thrown away." A vote is our voice, and even if you're the lone voice shouting in a hurricane, you still get to shout.

As for the current parties being made by "merging" factions of the previous parties: did this happen overnight? Is it impossible for it to happen again? Didn't those disaffected with the existing parties cause it to happen? I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. Would it cause a major upheaval? Sure would!

"...just trying to show the mathematical impossiblity of what is asked for here in, over, and over, and over."

I don't really see how your post in any way proves that a "Reagan conservative" winning is mathematically impossible. Reagan may have "only" won 50.8% of the popular vote, but he carried, what, 44 or 45 states' electoral votes? He carried 49 in 1984. You can compare the situation then to the situation now 'til the cows come home. I think you may find more things in common, if you look beyond the Cold War and the hostages in Iran. You seem to be saying that those two things elected Reagan, and I just won't buy that.

(The "mathematical impossibility" angle reminds me of an old sci-fi story I read long ago. Called, I believe, "The Franchise," it told the story of a man preparing to vote. The kicker was, he was the ONLY one who voted, and his "vote" was him answering seemingly-random questions posed by a computer. The computer then "extrapolated" how the whole populace felt on all the issues and candidates, and announced the winners. Mathematical modeling can only take you so far, it seems.)

We're in a war now, in fact, which could ultimately affect our future as much as the Cold War. And which has a much more personal effect on many more people than the hostage crisis did. And hey, there's Iran cooking up trouble again! And the economy is always there. Always, always, always. A strong, free-market-based economy, a militarily strong America, less government intrusion, lower taxes, and national pride and HOPE for the future. Why should those values not sell today the same way they sold in the '80s?

Is it really your stipulation that every vote cast, by anyone, for any candidate, is literally "asking someone to die for your beliefs?" I consider myself a world-class cynic, but that's too cynical an opinon even for me! But that is your belief. Is that an example of a belief that, on Election Day, you'll ask someone to die for? 

You may be right (I may be crazy!). But I just don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it sound. Guess I'm just not ready to give up quite yet. Maybe not this time, but we'll live to fight another day. 

 

Isaac Asimov's "Franchise"

"...winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing..." 

lol Nice shot, but a miss. I was talking about electable candidates, and throwing your vote away. If winning were the only thing, I'd be advocating flipping with the polls.

"I vote for the candidate whose beliefs most closely mirror my own."

So do I, in the primary if I'm given a chance, which is certainly not a given the way the primaries are set up.

"As for the current parties being made by "merging" factions of the previous parties: did this happen overnight?"

Pretty much, yes. And no, I don't believe it will ever happen again, because the media won't let it. While it occurred because there were those who were disaffected with the existing parties, those disaffected shared a common belief. What you are proposing would leave conservatives hanging out in the wind. Even assuming your new party could snag all the conservative democrats, that's 5% at most. You'll still need those moderates.

"...it told the story of a man preparing to vote..."

An excellent story, by the way. Have read it many times. The actual title is "Franchise," it was written by Isaac Asimov and was about the 2008 elections. Talk about coinkydink, lol.

"Is it really your stipulation that every vote cast, by anyone, for any candidate, is literally "asking someone to die for your beliefs?""

This is a presidential election we're talking about here, and last I checked, he still was the Commander-in-Chief. So yes, when you cast a vote in that election you're asking service members to die for your belief that your candidate will make the correct decisions. I fail to see anything cynical about that. It's simply one of the things you are empowering the president to do, either by voting for him directly, or by failing to prevent him from winning.

Thanks again for the good discussion.

V/R
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

Well its like I tell my son

Well its like I tell my son (mostly about his horrible girl friend) if you keep eating $hit sandwiches then someone will keep making them.

That is the way I feel about RINO’s.

 

 

Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.

Insert: your name, 2008, and the Republican party.

Romney / Jendil  2012 (if,we survive)

Nice Try, Clyde

Seriously.

I myself have reluctantly concluded that I will vote for McCain after my first, second, and third choices fell by the wayside.  He's a hundred percent better than either Hillary or Obama.

But I'm afraid many of our fellow conservatives are just too fed up and angry to think about it logically.

At this point, I think our only hope is for Hillary to somehow steal the nomination from Obama, and have the middle and the new(ly politicized) voters in the dem party revolt and flock to McCain.  I see the chances of this as being about 60/40 right now.  Floridians are really angry....our legislators are threatening to keep all dems off the ballot in November unless the delegates are seated, and if Hillary gets those delegates...internecine war ensues.

A year ago I was thinking that Rudy would eventually be our candidate (silly me), and decided I could live with that.  Upon further reflection, though, I think McCain's experience trumps Rudy's on all things to do with foreign policy.  And that to me, is first and foremost.  I think he heard us all on Amnesty.  I believe he'll appoint constructionist judges, and knows that lowering taxes is the only way to ensure continued prosperity.

So in the balance, McCain is the only choice.  Am I dancing about it?  No. 

But I'm afraid no amout of logical reasoning here is going to change any minds.  But we can keep trying.

  

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

I'm with you, Blonde. I fear

I'm with you, Blonde. I fear I will have to vote for McCain. But I'm going to need an industrial-grade clothespin for my nose when I do.

Industrial Sized Clothespins

I have some of those big whoppers. Have one for every presidential election since 1984. :o) Be glad to loan out my extras.

V/R
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

I'll take one,

I'll take one, Clyde!

Pleasure to post with you!

Joe

Clyde...   "I have

Clyde...

 

"I have some of those big whoppers. Have one for every presidential election since 1984. :o) Be glad to loan out my extras."

Since 1984 you have had to use a clothespin in order to vote. So when do you plan on taking a stand??? I don't consider using a clothespin a very responsible thing to do. If it stinks, you got to sanitize it. Until we do this, the GOP will keep pulling to the left. 

This November I will be voting without a clothespin, and I will be damned proud of it. It took me 30 years, but I finally get it.

 "Abstain from McCain"

Guess You Don't Eat Your Veggies, Either

I take a stand every primary, and when it comes to the general, I vote for the best electable candidate available, whether I agree with everything he stands for or not. I hold my nose and eat my vegetables too, but I would prefer not to do so.

In this case, I prefer to believe I'm the clearer thinker. :o) 

If it were up to just me, I would never choose McCain - but it's not up to just me. Two of my sons will either be in Iraq or Afganistan when this election rolls around, and the new president is inaugerated. I will never vote for someone who doesn't care about them, or who will make knee-jerk decisions concerning their lives. You may think and believe what you wish about McCain, but I know what Hillary thinks of the military. I know what Obama says he thinks about the military, and I believe none of it.

Refusing to vote, voting for a third party candidate, or voting for Hillary or Obama won't show anyone anything. It won't teach the country a lesson. It won't spark a great Conservative drive next election. Just like trying to kill yourself by holding your breath, the only thing accomplished will be - nothing.

Oh, it may cause one of my sons to be killed for no valid reason, but that's about all.

V/R
Clyde 

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

Oh, it may cause one of my

Oh, it may cause one of my sons to be killed for no valid reason, but that's about all.

Oh the good ol' guilt trip thrown upon us once again that do not want to vote for a RINO.

Precious.

bt... I just logged back

bt...

I just logged back in and read the same thing. 

"Oh, it may cause one of my sons to be killed for no valid reason, but that's about all."

As I mentioned in another post, the party loyalists are pushing us farther away from them, and it's this type of guilt trip argument that is doing it. I will respond to Mr. Gatton in my next post about Senator McCain and his supposed love for our guys and gals in uniform. 

 

 

"Abstain from McCain"

"...good ol' guilt

"...good ol' guilt trip ..." 

guilt: the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously - Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002.

Your words, not mine. I simply stated a fact. As you can see from the definition, guilt is a product of your consciousness, based on what you have/are about to do. There can be no 'guilt trip' if you don't have anything to feel guilty about.

Somehow I feel there is a Charles Schulz "Peanuts" strip in here somewhere...Linus...Lucy...you guys hiding? :o)

V/R
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

and your post would be valid

and your post would be valid iff your attempted guilt trip suceeded.

Knowing BT as i do it failed and miserably

No Poofdas

Believe As You Will

lol

Believe as you will. I didn't create the definition, I merely quoted it. I attempted no guilt trip, never even occurred to me. Seems some have very thin skins. Wonder why?

R/
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

CGatton...  "Seems some

CGatton...

 "Seems some have very thin skins. Wonder why?"

Because you come off like an ass sometimes.

"Abstain from McCain"

And I Thought Blogs Were For Reasoned Thinking

ROTFLMAO

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC

you attempted no guilt

you attempted no guilt trip?  i guess i've overestimated your logical capacities because it's very clear that you laid one out. (without even trying)

'seems some have very thin skins' --- what is this non-sequitor in referance to?

No Poofdas

Clyde... My my aren't we

Clyde...

My my aren't we pretentious ...you most certainly did try to use guilt with your line about one of your kids being killed for no valid reason... anybody with a brain that works can see that plain as day.

I don't need the likes of you sending me a definition of guilt...you are doing the exact play button the leftists have used against the repub party so long it isn't funny...the children, well I am going to assume your children knew when they signed up voluntarily that they stood the chance of being commanded under any President, no matter the party...they certainly have your expertise and knowledge I assume...I thank all who have served, including your children when they do. 

So do not attempt to blame me if your RINO doesn't win...and don't blame me when this RINO helps destroy this country if he does win. I wonder at times if you know all the things he has done in the Senate that has had to make the military cringe...oh I forgot, you are here as much as I am so I know you know from all the other posters with the links they too have put here...let alone all the other things he has done to hurt this country in my estimation.

Like I said before when we have posted, we will just have to agree to disagree, but I sure as hell don't appreciate being associated with the likes of you trying to make me feel guilty about anything, I have a mind and heart of my own...and I will vote as such. 

Welcome to the Democrat side

Welcome to the Democrat side of the street. :-)

CGatton... For the

CGatton...

For the record... Not only do I eat my vegetables I make sure they all come from California. I live in NC and every other car I see is a prius with a bumper sticker that reads "Buy Local Produce". I have a sticker on my car that says "I Import My Produce From CA" just to piss off the locals.

Anyway, if you think McCain will be good to your family in the military let me remind you of a few things. For one, McCain has voted against increases to Veterans Healthcare funding a total of 6 times. Is that good for your family in the military?

And, why is it he joined up with John Kerry to officially close the books on any POW'S left in Vietnam? Hint... he did it to hide his involvement with the Vietcong. Anotherwords, he was willing to leave POW's and MIA's behind in Vietnam just to cover his own ass.

Now lets talk about his opponents. Neither Hillary or Barak will be pulling our troops out of anywhere soon. Neither one of them want to be responsible for the bloodbath that will occur if we left. All the posturing they are doing at the moment is all political BS, or what I like to call lying.

Feel free to vote for anyone you want. I will respect your vote. All I ask is that you return the favor.  

"Abstain from McCain"

One of the Good things About Monterey

Monterey, CA and the surrounding area is probably the perfect place to live...hence the outrageous cost of living there. Regardless, the one thing my wife and I loved while there were the open air produce markets, and the tremendous variety of fruits and vegetables available pretty much year around. 

As for McCain and the military, now you've moved into the realm of innuendo and conspiracy thoeries. I save those for movies and television shows.

Finally, as for respecting your vote, I do. I write not to try to convert you, but hopefully to keep others from making the same mistake(s). I'm certain that's why you're posting here also, to convince others of your viewpoint.

R/
Clyde

"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC