Narrative Buster: Report Cites Improvement in Test Scores Since Enactment of NCLB

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State Test Scores in Reading and Mathematics Continue To Increase, Achievement Gaps Narrow Since 2002

A multi-year study designed to report on the effects of the much maligned 2002 No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) has determined that students achieved moderate to large gains on state tests in math and reading. The study also concluded that achievement gaps between white students and minorities narrowed, with significant reduction for the African American community and low income groups.

The study was conducted by the non-partisan Center On Education Policy over a 2 year period. Results of the report were released on June 24th yet few major newspapers bothered to mention the news. (all emphasis mine)

WASHINGTON, D.C. – June 24, 2008 – Student scores on state tests of reading and mathematics have risen since 2002, and achievement gaps between various groups of students have narrowed more often than they have widened, according to the most comprehensive and rigorous recent analysis of state test scores. These improvements have occurred during a period when the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB), state education reforms, and local school improvement efforts have focused on raising test scores and narrowing achievement gaps.

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It is of little surprise that the mainstream media glossed over the CEP press release considering that the results of this study contradict the MSM narrative that was literally culled from the talking points that Democrats have been using as an election issue practically since the bipartisan law was enacted. A large chunk of the narrative is centered around many myths that unfortunately are still being reported by many in the media today.

Not all left of center newspapers have towed the line on the Democrat narrative knocking NCLB. To its credit the Washington Post carried an editorial from Chester E. Finn Jr. dispelling 5 of the most commonly repeated myths that are repeated by politician and reporter alike. Mr. Finn is a former Assistant Secretary at the Department of Education, a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and former Democrat that worked in the Nixon White House. He was instrumental in lobbying for a national testing standard with an emphasis on proficiency.

Myths aside, what really should be of interest to supporters of education reform is improvements based on hard data that would not even be available if NCLB changes weren't enacted in the first place.

For instance the CEP reported the following 5 conclusions based on their analysis of the data.

Main Conclusions

1. Since 2002, reading and math achievement on state tests has gone up in most states according to the percentages of students scoring at the proficient level. Gains tended to be larger at the elementary and middle school grades than at the high school level. Achievement has also risen in most states according to effect sizes. These findings are drawn from states with at least three years of comparable test data.

2. Trends in reading and math achievement on NAEP have generally moved in the same positive direction as trends on state tests, although gains on NAEP tended to be smaller than those on state tests. The exception to the broad trend of rising scores on both assessments occurred in grade 8 reading, where fewer states showed gains on NAEP than on state tests, especially in terms of effect sizes.

3. In states with sufficient data to determine achievement gap trends on state tests, gaps have narrowed more often than they have widened since 2002, particularly for African American students and low-income students. Gap trends were also largely positive for Latino students, but this finding is less conclusive because in many states the Latino subgroup has changed significantly in size in recent years.On the whole, percentages proficient and effect sizes revealed similar trends of narrowing or widening, although percentages proficient gave a more positive picture of achievement gap trends than effect sizes.

4. Gaps on NAEP have also narrowed more often than they have widened in states with sufficient data to determine gap trends. The exception was in grade 8 math, where gaps on NAEP widened more often than they narrowed for most subgroups. In general, NAEP results painted a less positive picture of progress in narrowing gaps than state tests did.

5. It is impossible to determine the extent to which these trends in test results have occurred because of NCLB. Since 2002,many different but interconnected policies and programs have been undertaken to raise achievement—some initiated by states or school districts and others implemented in response to federal requirements. Moreover, all public school students have been affected by NCLB, so there is no suitable comparison group of students to show what would have happened without NCLB.

To be sure there is plenty of room for improvement. The CEP notes that it can not determine whether or not gains can be exclusively attributed to NCLB or if a combination of factors played part. They make this claim based on the fact that all public schools have been affected by NCLB, thus surmising that there is no control group that can be used for comparison.

The authors of the report seem to go to great lengths to undermine the possibility that NCLB is a factor in the gains although they state they can not make a determination one way or another; which is a shame because that is partially what the study was designed to do. They also undermine the concept that tests are a good indicator of improvement with a blanket statement that test are not synonymous with achievement. This is a silly statement to make and calls into question the objectivity of the study authors IMHO. Of course tests are not all encompassing but well designed tests can certainly determine deficiencies across groups and can help ascertain a student's general grasp of the subjects being tested on in addition to the ability of teachers to teach students the core concepts of math and reading.

Chester Finn explained this concept succinctly in his WAPO article where he commented on the validity of standardized testing.

Teachers' animus toward standardized testing has many roots, chief among them the grueling weeks of preparation and exams that they and their students endure every year. But the accountability made possible by standardized testing isn't all bad. If the test is an honest measure of a solid curriculum, then teaching kids the skills and knowledge they need to pass it is honorable work. Just ask any Advanced Placement teacher.

It does a bit of a disservice to undermine one's own study by mentioning other factors that may or may not have helped boost the results; especially when, by your own admission, it is impossible to determine. None of that should detract from the fact that the reforms implemented under NCLB did in fact precede positive achievements. It is hard to argue that the act had the detrimental sky is falling down affect that many have been reporting for years in light of such gains.

One major question remaining is whether or not this new news will replace or even soften the current narrative. I myself am a skeptic. Considering that it is an election year and a certain favorite of the MSM has been bashing NCLB for some time now it doesn't take any sort of educational reform to give anyone the ability to add up the chances of that happening.

Terry Trippany is the editor and publisher of Webloggin.


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There is "improvement"

There is "improvement" during the NCLB cycle because kids are being better trained in test-taking.

"Teach the test" is a very familiar mantra in the teachers' world.  Their hands are tied.  They can't customize their learning plans according to a particular room of kids.  They are forced to adhere to a nationalized standardization.

How does this sit with you supposed federalist conservatives?

Not quite

I have a masters in computer science and have taken many of these types of tests. This is one of those myths.

You can't game comprehension in reading or math when the tests are well designed. This is a silly premise. Are we supposed to ignore the fact that tests have been the norm for years and now all of a sudden we are to believe that teachers are gaming the system.

Show me proof.

So you honestly believe

So you honestly believe that a nationalized test, designed by federal bureaucrats, can accurately determined an individual student's capacity to read, write, and calculate?

Far from perfect... yet

Far from perfect... yet no worse than being designed by a group whose main objective is to protect the employment of it's membership base.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

I believe in the validity of

I believe in the validity of tests. How else are we to determine progress let alone accountability? And sorry, federal bureaucrats did not write the tests. They mandated a system to standardize the test and hold educators accountable for progress or lack thereof. Sounds fair to me.

Performance measurement is

Performance measurement is extremely tricky business. Just because a national measure states there is a percentage "improvement" in math skills doesn't automatically mean that kids are better in math. This whole enterprise is bureaucratic in nature.

Where is the skepticism?

Yet it's OK for colleges?

There are no 'national' tests that measure middle schoolers or High Schoolers other than the independant "standardized' tests that have been around for decades. All the tests used in the NCLB are State tests. The one true equalizing and national standardized test that measures all students using the same yardstick is the SAT. If their entire academic career is to be boiled down to the SAT, why not get them used to it well before time and at the same time measure how they are doing?

The NCLB asked each State to pick a test and set a 'standard' that all students in a particular grade will have to meet. Any school that has a certain % failing to make that standard is classified as "at risk" and is at that point elligible for additional Federal and State $$. If they do not improve in a few years, then the State is authorized to assume the administration of that school and 'fix' the problem.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

Proof

Show me proof.

Here's your proof. You're welcome.

D

Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.

Rubbish.

Isolated AND anecdotal. 

Besides, the point of the story was that even after allegedly seeing the test, the failure rate was still over 50%.

A teachers response..

Go figure. Always something "ain't" it? Its never the teacher or the schools. Its just that the kids are dumber today.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Just proof that some

Just proof that some teachers are 'gaming the system' as the previous poster denied.

D

Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.

Certainly appears isolated

"I can honestly say that I have never seen anything like this unless there was a leak or an error, and I've been doing this for 35 years," said Joseph Pedulla... 

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

you will have a hard time believing this

joy behar was a h.s. teacher here on L.I.,N.Y. fortunately for the students, she was fired.

Larry! Your kidding, right?

Larry! Your kidding, right? The state of NY fired a teacher?? Speaks volumes about Joy, dont it?

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

No Child Left Behind scores

You can't prove these statistics by me.   They are

still teaching fuzzy math in my grandaughter's

school, and reading and writing are not really

improving by what I've seen.   Teachers don't

correct spelling, grammar, etc.  And the math is

incredibly stupid.

Kids should be better

Kids should be better trained in test-taking. They should also be better trained in studying techniques. When they have these skills, good teachers won't have to "teach the test." Unfortunately, poor teachers may still have to approach it this way, though.

So far, what I've seen from my daughter's schooling has been fine with me.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

My guess is that your

My guess is that your daughter's school is relatively homegenous and the student body, as a whole, is pretty well above average, academically.

NCLB means that everything must slow down to the slowest and most unmotivated kids.  These types of kids are given the power to bring a whole school down.  Teachers are extremely frustrated because they can't meet the needs of the brighter and more hard-working students.

I seem to remember there

I seem to remember there were diffwerent groups of kids in different classes to accomodate the rate of learning.  From what I hear this was abolished because it was discriminatory.  But it worked well in my day.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

dan your on the mark with that comment and

the teachers were more focused on teaching than complaining, for that we can thank the uft,nea aft.

Yes, you are by and large

Yes, you are by and large correct. She is well above average in some respects (reading), average in others (math). She just needs to quit talking out of turn so much.

She's in a class with kids who are not at her level, but it hasn't slowed her down. If anything, it looks to me like kids these days are being held to a higher standard. The things our daughter is learning right now seem far more advanced than they were when I was in school at that age.

The kids that frustrated her teacher the most are the ones with behavior issues, and they've caused teachers' fits since the beginning of time.

Admittedly, I'm only looking at a narrow focus with my own second grader... but that's really the one I'm concerned about the most.

I was not the best at standardized test-taking. Personally, I did better when I could BS my way through an essay. But, if we take away the standardized test, I'm not sure I know how we are supposed to determine if our kids are meeting what the world is going to expect of them.

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

There is nothing wrong with

There is nothing wrong with "teaching the test."

If the test is measuring what kids need to know that is exactly what the teachers should be teaching.

And if kids need to take tests, what is wrong with teaching them to be better at it?

The baloney about "teaching kids to learn" is exactly that- baloney. They spend all their elementary years "learning to learn" and arrive in high school unable to read.


Obama's theme song

killgrave

it's clear to me that either you havent read the article and the links, or your a public school teacher.

My wife is a public school

My wife is a public school teacher.

But please... go ahead and slam away.

Our Republic is in a really bad spot, for many reasons.  One of them is the completely sh*tty attitude people have towards teachers.

It's interesting that in pretty much any other string, posters here will agree that "kids these days" are ill-behaved, ill-mannered, and completely corrupted by the culture of entitlement.  But somehow, when the discussion turns towards teachers, all of sudden, it's the teachers' fault!

It has nothing to do with lousy students (that teachers are forced to slow the whole class down for), lousy parents (who refuse to do their job - they treat schools as defacto daycare centers, and God forbid that a teacher dare criticize the fruit of their loins), and school Administrations that are totally unwilling, or unable to impose order in the classrooms, and they will throw their teachers to the dogs in a heartbeat.

No, it's all the teachers' fault!  Fire them all!!

I'm suppose most of the

I'm suppose most of the problems with education in our country are in fact due to problems with the parents and a popular culture which seems to place very little emphasis on the values of academic or other positive acheivement, with the possible exception of athletics.

That said, without some standard of measurement, how do we objectively measure effectiveness of the teachers or the education system in general?

And why would the teachers slow the entire class down below the average capability to learn? That won't help bring overall test scores up, will it?

 

DC, That's the beef with

DC, That's the beef with NCLB.  A school's funding is tied to the achievement scores.  They are not excused from testing, just because the student doesn't understand the concept.  The teacher has to try and drive some kind of understanding into the child's head. 

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

"...how do we objectively

"...how do we objectively measure effectiveness of the teachers or the education system in general?"

That's certainly a valid question.

But before we get to that point, I think first thing should be first.  In order to save the public education system, we should weed all the bad kids out.  They should be sent to special schools that can handle them.  And, frankly, there should be mandatory training for their parents.

Once you have classrooms filled with kids who are ready, willing, and able to learn, I promise you that test scores will go through the roof. 

But we'd need some sort of

But we'd need some sort of testing for that... ;-)

I think the only viable solution is to get the federal government out of applying top-down generic solutions and return control of education policy to the States and local governments. Let the States and local governments experiment as they see fit. Those that care to can learn from the successful strategies of the best.

 

 

Like any other profession,

Like any other profession, there are great teachers, and there are lousy teachers. Just make it easier to dispose of the lousy (ineffective) ones so that a potentially great teacher gets an opportunity. I'm sure we've all had teachers on both sides of that coin, and can recall the impact an truly wonderful teacher can have on our learning.

"Lousy" parents are probably the largest contributor to the problem. If a kid comes to school with low regard for authority and a general disinterest in learning, it most likely can be traced to a childhood where parents didn't enforce rules or encourage learning behaviors.

Give that kid to a lousy teacher, and what hope does he have?

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Killgrave, My apologies to

Killgrave, My apologies to you and your wife if any of my posts have offended.  I understand your wife's plight.  Many of my best friends are teachers.  I've heard many stories of students who couldn't construct a complete sentence on paper, stringing together a stream of invective that would shame a longshoreman.  When the parent is confronted, they totally deny their little darlings even know such words and then proceed to use the same language against the teacher.  My school is an actual daycare center, with provisions to watch students before and after school until the parent can arrive in the evening to pick them up.  A lot of times, they are coming from a bar, not a job, and their arrival is dependent on whether they can remember they even have children.  

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

No apologies necessary. 

No apologies necessary.  Blogging ain't beanbag.  And your posts are perfectly cromulent :)

Well, I've learned something

Well, I've learned something new today. Perhaps I'll ask my boss if I can leave early. ;-)

KG, do you know the origin of the word cromulent? I've never heard it before. Just curious.

Look for the NCLB act to be repealed quickly by a Pres. Obama.

The teacher's unions HATE it because it has the dreaded word 'accountability' in it. They cannot stand that their profession is moving, albeit slowly, toward a performance based measure instead of the current time-in-service based.

Look for it to be replaced with a touchy, feely program that does nothing to measure how much the kids are learning, only that they are enjoying their time. Call it the MCLBA (Many Children Left Behind Act).

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

With report cards like

With report cards like this

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Loved that show

The acting and writing were exceptional. 

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw, 1944

Free refills

It's a wonderful show! 

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

The main problem with NCLB

The main problem with NCLB is that the achievement standards keep inching upwards.  This isn't necessarily a bad concept for under-achieving classroooms, where the standards were low and children were not doing as well as they could, but when a school is already doing well, eventually you reach a point where you aren't going to be able to improve your math scores by 5% every year.  Let's face it, all the kids who were in a kindergarten class when NCLB was passed are not going to be tied for valedictorian when they graduate from high school because a law mandates no one be left behind.  The law needs to be changed to support a school that is already at a high level. 

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

I don't know...

Better performing schools should be rewarded, supported and studied to see what makes them superior.

NCLB should be establishing basic criteria for just 'what' a grade is.  That is, a third grade student should read at a certain level, have achieved a proficiency in math, science, reading, etc.   

Without this, inner-city school children will complete twelve years of schooling and continue to be graduated with an eight-grade education, while their suburban counterparts roll out loaded for bear and are scooped up by higher education facilities that continues their 'leg up' in life.

 

 

doesn't work that way held

You're going on the assumption that teachers in bad schools will buckle down and make their schools better.

It doesn't happen. After a year or two of trying to engage their students, getting nowhere, and watching your funding slip away because your kids aren't paying attention, most of these teachers apply to work in a school down the road where the kids are more prepared and the funding shows up.

That sounds terrible but that's exactly what happens. The good teachers disappear into private schools or the ones in preppy suburbs while the bad teachers stay behind in the failing schools - and when word gets out that a particular school has all the good teachers, enrollment in their district grows. NCLB actually enhances de facto segregation.

I could prolly show you some examples but they would be seen as "isolated and anectodal."

candace: You hit the nail

candace:

You hit the nail on the head.

Candance, I know that

Candance, I know that the Teachers' unions don't like NCLB and one of the reasons is accountability.  The problem is that they are the only one's being held accountable.  There are bad teachers.  There are stupid children.  But mainly, NCLB needs to address the bad parent, those parents that are either not taking the time, or just can't be bothered.  Schools have become so much more than educational facilities in today's society.  They have to provide the nutritional needs with breakfast and lunches.  They have to mentor and nurture, but they can no longer discipline.   

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

agreed Hunter

I agree 100% that teachers' unions are terrible things. But what has NCLB done about unions? You still can't fire a bad teacher - they keep their jobs intact and their entire school gets punished with less funding.

You're a great teacher. You love your kids. You put in more hours than you should. You really enjoy the subject you're there to teach. But the five teachers down the hall are old and bitter and gave up ages ago. Guess what? Instead of them getting fired they get a raise from the union, and due to them being lazy your principal has to cut the budget and now you're buying your own supplies out of your paycheck just to give your kids a fun project. What happens next? You stay in that school and try to build it up, or you find an opening in a better district where your efforts are rewarded?

In other words, NCLB holds no one accountable. Principals still don't fire anyone for fear of the union and the kids end up suffering because their school has no money.

 

Hmmm "because their school

Hmmm "because their school has no money" how does this happen?  Schools are funded locally not federally.  So teh local school system determines how much money is available?

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

school funding

Federal funds for education are given to states who then are required to divy up the money appropriately. The federal government is famous for attaching conditions to this money and, as part of the deal, making states promise to follow certain guidelines. Thus even though states are technically funding the schools, in reality thier hands are tied when it comes to federal funding - they are simply the middle man.

Schools are also required to comform to sex education rules if they want federal funding, among other things.

 

I believe you are wrong in

I believe you are wrong in your funding.  In Texas the funding is done on a state basis and tehn divied up between teh school districts.  There are fed funds but they dont amount to much.  The bulk is paid for by the state.  Now fed funds can be pulled and the locals would have to make up the difference.  But this is for the states and locals to decide.  At this point in time the states want a piece of teh pie and play the game. http://www.investintexasschools.org/schoolfunding/current.php

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Better performing schools

Better performing schools should be studied.  But I can tell you why most of the better performing schools are doing so well.  It boils down to the parents and their interest in their child's work in school.  These Hollywood movies about Freedom Writers or math teachers inspiring a class are nice, but a student with a parent providing the motivation and support is the really story.  What skews the results is that most of these motivators come from upscale, wealthier towns and districts, where the parents have experienced the benefits of applying yourself in school.  They happen to be concentrated there by the nature of their past success.   

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

these kids can

read "See Dick and Jane" and compute simple math 1+1=2

However, they have not spent any time on History unless it deals with Martin L King. (30 days of MLK in Florida every year)

Ancient History, World History, and American History are

Almost nonexistent.

Civics?

Their teachers teach all year to tests. 

Sad

They're too busy rewriting

They're too busy rewriting American history to teach it.  I love to see some idiot born after 1945 spouting off that the "Bomb" was cruel and the United States was criminal for dropping it.  I want to tell them that there is probably about a 20% chance that the male that sired them or their parents, depending on their age, would have been lying dead or shot up on a beach in Japan if we hadn't.  So when you see a crowd of more than 5 protesters, pick out the most obnoxious and pretend they really aren't there. 

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

Is it fair to say that the states can still define...

Is it fair to say that the states can still define what they believe to be proficient? How do the states define proficiency? What state tests were given?  In Psych. 101 we learned that ANY attention affected performance in a positive way. We should expect modest spikes, no matter what is done. Any attention remains better than no attention.

I, for one, am not willing to bet the farm on NCLB just yet. Remember, this was brought to us by the folks who still believe Islam is the religion of peace. All of this goes far beyond political parties and elections. The teachers unions remain off on their tangents, chasing the windmills of their agendas with insufficient care for the students. We have not even begun to address the true causes of educational variation.

Perhaps we should remember what Mark Twain said to us long ago. "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

I don't like NCLB

I know several people who work in public education in different states and all of them hate NCLB. The inside joke among teachers is "no child is left behind because none of them are moving."

Teachers have just enough time to prepare their students for the material that will appear on the test. You can say that fundamentals of math are logic and hard to fake, but I disagree. When I took math in school I could do the work my teacher had covered with me but when presented with a new twist or an extra step I was lost. Teachers know this and teach their kids the exact tricks they need to pass the test.

And in the process of doing all this there is no time to teach anything extra. History, English, and Social Studies are not giving children well-rounded information. They're given the bare essentials to pass the test. Take a child who scored perfect on that test and engage them in a discussion about something in history - you'll see how shallow their understanding of it really is.

While a test is still the best way we have to determine knowledge, it's not perfect by any means.

Candance, By your

Candance,

By your statements above, I infer you are a product of NCLB. Is this correct? If so, do you have the sense that your education was inadequate compared to previous generations? On the surface, it doesn't appear that way to me.

not me Karma

I graduated high school in 98.

Sorry Candance, I misunderstood.

When you wrote: When I took math in school I could do the work my teacher had
covered with me but when presented with a new twist or an extra step I
was lost. Teachers know this and teach their kids the exact tricks they
need to pass the test.
And in the process of doing all this there is no time to teach anything extra.

I took this as meaning your teachers didn't have time to teach you the extra steps or twists as they were preoccupied with only teaching the tricks needed to pass the NCLB tests.

well karma

Back in the 90s schools were obsessed with test results and simply getting their kids to pass. Now with NCLB it's gotten exponentially worse.

So where does the solution

So where does the solution lie? Lay? Lain? Rats, I forget that one already.

We obviously cannot remove tests, and standardized tests give us at least some idea of where a student should be performing, hopefully catching deficiencies before it's too late. What it does not do is show a child's ability to reason, or delve into a subject with any great depth.

But if a teacher has to spend this much time preparing students for a test, what is the root of the problem?

  • Is the test too difficult?
  • Is the child incapable of learning that information?
  • Is the teacher ill-equipped to prepare a child in any other way?

Where's Mr. Miyagi when you need him? Teach one skill, and before you know it, other's develop along with it. 

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

You all need to read From

You all need to read From Crayons to Condoms if you want to know the truth. (There are a lot of other good books out there but this was my most recent read on education.)  Most of the tests are nothing but smoke and mirrors. They do not require any rote memerization or even thinking. On the math they are allowed use calculators. I ask the math teacher at the local high school to help me refresh on how to do square roots. She told me they didn't teach that anymore, the calculator did it.

Don't get me started with this stuff. I have boxes full of research on the problems in education ever since the edcuation system was taken over by the teacher unions and the physcologists (sp).

There were a lot of schools here in NC that failed to make adaquate progress. (If you have time here is the website.)

In my opinion the 8th grade education many of us got in the 60's is equal to today's high school diploma. By the way NCLB is just as crappy as Goals 2000 and School to Work the 2 failed education bills of Clinton.

 

Be kind to your kids. They'll be choosing your nursing home.

exactly rick

NCLB is, in essense, a government program that creates as many problems as it solves. It puzzles me why so many conservies here support it - and I suspect they're only doing so because it came from Bush.

Candance

The actual bill was written by Kennedy. Bush signed it in one of those "can't we all get along moments." I will continue to say, show me where in the Constitution the federal government is to be involved in education.  

Be kind to your kids. They'll be choosing your nursing home.

Because it came from Bush?

Because it came from Bush? Not at all. Never was a fan of his.

Because teachers unions demonize it? Closer to the mark. Of course, generally speaking, I'd prefer the government and unions stay out of decisions concerning education.

NCLB did not come

NCLB did not come unilaterally from Bush. The most recent incarnation was a bi-partisan effort. The law in itself has been around for decades. It's sad that certain narratives continue to bubble up in the conversation about educating our kids.

For the record many conservatives oppose NCLB. I personally don't believe it is any sort of panacea but rather a step in the right direction.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that it creates as many problems as it solves. Where is this quantified?

I did see that someone above provided me "proof" that teachers are gaming the system but I believe that this not to be a rule. Thankfully people are looking for this kind of cheating and they have been caught and in many cases corrected. In that respect the new accountability standards actually exposed people that have no place in the education system to begin with. If certain teachers and administrators are actually gaming the system they should be removed because they are not doing the job they are tasked with. We can not assume however that this is a rule just because some have been caught.

There seems to be a general lack of a desire to hold educators and administrators accountable for the state of education. That is quite sad and is exactly what NCLB was meant to address.

For those that say that NCLB dumbs down advanced placement children or above average children I have never heard that argument. These children do have an option for advanced placement if necessary.

What does hold children back however is all of the emphasis on non-core curriculum classes and efforts by some to use the schools as some sort of play ground for ideologically driven social engineering experiments.

Teachers are also overburdened with many things that distract from the goal of teaching. Consider the impact of non-English speaking students or teachers that are not equipped to handle special needs students that have been integrated in classes but are not provided the support mechanism to handle the extra load.

The issues are complex and many.

I am not sure what alternatives are being proposed but it is apparent that after years of wallowing in sub-standard results that NCLB is attempting to address the solution. It's not perfect and that's why we as educated people should make adjustments. What we can't do is simply throw up our hands and wish the problem away.

From my perspective NCLB gives parents a tool of measurement and overseers of the system a means to fix problem schools. This should be welcomed as a step in the right direction.

we'll agree to disagree

I've outlined several unintened consequences here that were met with a chilly reception on this thread.

Know what would *really* fix our schools? Get the government out of the picture altogether, allow parents to send their kids wherever they please, and stop letting teachers' unions bully principals who want to fire people.

If you're a blue collar family living in a certain neighborhood and your local school is crap, what can you do? Even with NCLB the problem isn't solved. Bad teachers (and bad kids) come out with bad results, the school is punished by losing funding, art programs and field trips disappear, and your child starts to dread going to school.

You now have two options: move across town to put him in a better school or pay tuition at a private school.

What if the government stopped taxing you for education and let you spend that money on the school of your choice? Word gets out that a certain school has no union and actually cares about their customers - their enrollment shoots up, they made a mad profit, and an investor build one just like down the street.

Every single time this method is tried it's a success, and those schools outscore public education every year.

I partially agree

The solution shouldn't necessarily revolve around getting the government out of education. The problem is that the government limits choice, particularly with vouchers.

However you are esposing some things and passing on information that simply isn't true. In fact NCLB has a provision that parents can transfer their children out of failing schools. In that case the transportation must be provided at no cost to the parent. NCLB also has a provision that forces failing schools to offer additional help to students. One problem with this picture is that the timelines are our of whack. Failing schools are given 2 years to clean up their act before parents can transfer their children out. Worse, additional help does not have to be offered unless the school is failing for 3 years. This is a silly reminder that the political winds that got a hold of the program managed to water it down. One the other hand though is it unreasonable to expect it to take 2 years to rebuild a failing school? Hard to say.

You have to be careful with terms like "every time this method is tried it's a success". There are documented cases of charter schools failing their students. Does this make all charter schools bad? Not by a long shot. But it does demonstrate that no single solution is perfect.

I am not saying tha NCLB is the answer to everything. It is however a partial solution. We should be able to take some positive aspects of NCLB and expand them, couple that with actual changes that allow administrators to more quickly remove failing teachers and give parents real choice.

Perhaps we are not that far off and just differ on the affectiveness of NCLB.

- Trip

It's not really "cheating"

If teachers "teach to the test" because of tax money incentives to do just that. It's rational economic behavior on the part of the teachers/schools. While it may distort whatever results the test is supposed to have, still it's not cheating. And the ONLY thing that ever holds crappy workers of any sort accountable for crappy work is the free market, which is if anything the opposite of NCLB. I don't wish to throw up my hands and wish the problem away. Mine is a hands free solution: I'd defund the problem away, like Candace seems to want to do, too.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

When I was a kid

The teachers in my classroom had PRACTIAL KNOWLEDGE of the subject/subjects they were teaching.

Today, that is not the norm. Very often the math teacher has a general ed deploma, no degrees in math but has seniority.

This is true in all areas. More senior teachers get the higher paying positions in the classroom and most often it has nothing to do with having practical knowledge of the subject they are teaching.

My boys had English/Language Arts teachers who could not spell or construct proper sentences.

These same teachers follow books they are given and teach to the test.

And when a boy turns 18, who's GPA is low, he is removed from the
school. Yes, kicked out.

When I went to school, a kid had to graduate
even if they were 20 years old.

This is where the high "drop out rate" comes in.

They do not drop out, they are thrown out. 

Granted, there are dorpouts. There are many reasons and one big reason is because school is so damn boaring for boys in particular.

"No child left behind" is a fine concept.

The problem is the cookie cutter, one size fits all approach.

Socialists are turning out cookie after cookie. All alike....

We are not graduating THINKERS we are graduating COOKIES.

Hunter

the problems with our school system is  GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT AND TEACHERS UNIONS WHO PROMOTE SENIORITY OVER PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE!

Easy to blame parents. But in today's world the inmates are running the asylem.

No discipline without kissing the butt of some student who belongs in reform school and not a class room. OOPS not reform schools!

Mainstreaming students. SORRY BAD IDEA!

So get over Blaming the parents.

My teachers took homework home. They graded papers at home or after school. There were NO teacher work days?

They were proficient in the subjects they taught and stayed after school to help the failing students WITHOUT OVERTIME!

They taught because they were teachers. Today I don't know why most teachers teach except for the fact they get pay and benifits for  working 8 months out of a year or less if you count the weekends, 3 day weekends .......

 

Before being laid off in 96

Before being laid off in 96 I was working as an instuctor in nuclear power plant maintenance. All of our lessons plans were written using Bloom's Taxonomy of Educational Objectives. Many school today use this too but therein is where the problem lies.

In Bloom's you start out teaching the skill/knowledges and move forward to comprehension and anaylsis and so on. This is called the cognitive domain. It is where you learn the basics of reading, writing, etc.

After the mastery in the cognitve domain you can move on to the affective domain. This is where the feelings, values, attitudes, etc come in. We didn't use this domain in our teaching.

The problem is in the affective domain being taught either before the cognitive domain is mastered or it is entertwined with it. Teaches have been taught this from the pastel painted education schools. They can't teach from the cognitve domain.

If this doesn't make sense then look at Bloom's Taxonomy and I believe it will.

 

Be kind to your kids. They'll be choosing your nursing home.

Delsea, I've personally

Delsea, I've personally seen the parent dragged into a classroom by the threat of having their child sent home for three or more days of suspension from school due to head lice, sleeping in class, cursing, and other disruptive behavior.  Guess what?  Their concern wasn't that the child would miss school, but that who was going to be responsible for the student at home.  Guess what?  The parent's absence wasn't due to a job they had.  I'm not saying that every teacher is doing a wonderful job, but try to stay motivated when you can be called a stupid, MF'ing, SOB, lying CS'er by a student and your acceptable course of action is to send said student to internal suspension.  They don't want to be in the class anyway.  I remember getting in trouble and school and my fear wasn't what the teacher was going to do to me, but what would happen when I got home.  In today's society, we have too many parents who want to be their child's best friends.  They have plenty of people around to fill that role, but sadly only two people to fill the parent role and if those people don't want the job, the kids are screwed. 

So I must respectfully disagree with your premise that it isn't the parent.  About 75% of the time, it is.  

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

Ridiculous

Arguments concerning the schools have been going on for decades. One fact is crystal clear. American public education is an abject failure and all we do is talk, talk, talk. Some other facts are also clear. We have wonderful teachers and administrators and we have absolutely incompetent teachers and administrators. Funny, they are all treated the same. The incompetents are never held accountable and rarely does the system recognize or reward the great ones. Just as with the Congress of the United States, a complete revision is necessary. We have 19th century schools in the 21st century. We love to criticize them, but we do nothing substantial to change them. Too many vested interests. It's ridiculous and quite dangerous for our future.

P.S. Here's an example. I know three young people who have 64 years of public education among them.They send me emails with errors in spelling, sentence structure, word usage, etc. Three college degrees and they don't even know the basics. Something is wrong folks. 

 

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

Let us look at the source of POOR education

L.B.J. and the DEPT of ED

A mess

Does anyone believe Obama (or McCain for that matter) will straighten out this mess? I don't.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

This mess will be

This mess will be straightened out shortly after Social Security is privitized and the Federal Income Tax is eliminated.