The Media’s Lockstep Elation About a Chevy Volt Non-Improvement
The $82 billion auto bailout has been a Crony Socialist nightmare mess. We’re going to lose at least $30 billion on the deal. And that’s only if the Barack Obama Administration’s math can be trusted - a dicey proposition at best.
The Administration eviscerated two hundred-plus years of bankruptcy law, throwing bond holders over the side to over-reward their United Auto Workers shock force buddies.
General Motors (GM) is cutting undisclosed deals with executives’ wives businesses.And on, and on, and on....Haven’t heard most or all of this? Not surprising - the Jurassic Press ain’t reporting it.
-----
President Obama, meanwhile, is trying to run for reelection on this Bizarro-world definition of “success.”
And the Jurassic Press is in lockstep unison behind him, once again serving as the White House Steno Pool.
The press in parrot-unison hail Obama for having “saved” the auto industry.
But always somehow fail to report that we have lost (at least) $30 billion on the (mis-ad)venture....
The press in parrot-unison blithely called the Chevy Volt fire investigation closed - immediately after the Obama Administration did. An investigation which only looked at one Volt fire - involving a vehicle that had in government testing been involved in an accident.
But the press somehow failed to subsequently remember the (at least) five additional Volt fires - even though they initially reported on them.
It’s as if they have forgotten that the Obama Administration and GM covered up the Volt fire(s) for nearly six months.
It’s as if they have forgotten the two other Volt fires that took place during government testing.
It’s as if they have forgotten the two Volt fires that led to the government’s Volt investigation in the first place - involving a vehicle that wasn’t in an accident.
And it’s as if they have forgotten about a third non-accident Volt fire.
GM’s Volt fire “solution” - and the Obama Administration’s “successfully” “concluded” Volt investigation - did nothing to address these non-accident fires.
But once the Obama Administration declared the woefully incomplete Volt case closed - so too did the media.
Contrast all of this non-reporting with the Democrat-Media zeal for Government Motors-competitor Toyota's auto-acceleration "problem." Which led to millions of recalls - but turned out to be exclusively the result of operator error.
-----
The latest example of this unthinking media fealty is their “reporting” on the latest bit of “news” on the unprofitable and serially combustible Chevy Volt.
The Volt’s electric battery range was “improved” - from 35 to...38 miles. Hay-yuge increase, right?
But this “accomplishment” was accomplished only by increasing the battery size. Which means it’s not a bigger range - just a bigger battery.
Which means it takes even longer than the original 12 hours to recharge. Which means it becomes an even bigger paper weight to be dragged around by the gasoline engine once it’s (so rapidly) depleted.
And which means ostensibly an even bigger fire hazard.
That’s Government Motors’ definition of “improvement” - right in line with the Administration’s definition of “success.”
And the Jurassic Press is backing this disingenuous play on words.
2013 Chevy Volt stretches out the electric miles, works harder for the money
Upgraded Battery Gives 2013 Chevrolet Volt New Range, Efficiency
Chevy Volt Plug-In Hybrid Gets Longer Battery Range
GM boosts Volt's mileage range
Chevy Volt Plug-In Hybrid Gets Longer Battery Range
Pretty all-encompassingly effusive for a non-existent improvement, no? It’s nearly endless.
2013 Chevy Volt Extends Its EV Advantage—and Its All-electric Driving Range
General Motors announces Volt battery improvement
2013 Chevy Volt Gets More Range
There are many, many more slathering examples of this - but you get the point.
-----
There is no Volt “improvement” - no increased battery range. You wouldn’t know it reading these headlines.
The Jurassic Press - once and yet again serving as an Obama 2012 open channel.
- Seton Motley's blog
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Comments
The bailout was...
Submitted by LastKnownOne on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 9:18am.
The bailout was not a success. He did not save GM with a bailout. A bailout is suppose to prevent bankruptcy. GM filed for bankruptcy anyway; therefore, it was not a success. It was a total failure. I complete and utter waste of money except to the Unions who benefitted nicely from my hard work. I may file a lawsuit against the government for enslaving me to another citizen which is against Article XIII of the United States Constitution.
The cat is out of the bag now
Submitted by c5then on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 9:48am.
Most Americans have their eyes wide open thanks to Obama and Wisconsin. The erra of the mighty all-powerful union is over. They UAW has priced themselves right out of the market. They now own a good portion of GM which is going to fail no matter what they try. They are unable to compete. The unions are so inept when it comes to managing ANYTHING they they will drive GM into the grave in a few years.
Madison and Jefferson and Franklin built a Republic - Roberts killed it!
Bush's fault
Submitted by CO2Maker on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:11am.
No, no. Not 43, not Dubya. It's the bush that some big Administration dog peed on,which all the beta dogs in the suck-up media sniff and then pee on, too.
GM vehicles
Submitted by oldfart on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 11:36am.
I have primarily owned GM vehicles all of my driving life. Fred Flintstone and I got our first cars together. I generally found Fords to have electrical and suspension problems. That being said I will never own another GM vehicle. Mainly because of the way Obama Administration handled the downsizing of dealerships. Don't you find it strange and may profitable dealerships lost their franchises just because they did not donate money to Obama? If they are profitable, and moving inventory, what difference does it make?
There are a lot of good vehicles out there and I am taking a new look at Ford, because they told Obama to 'stick it'.
It is an improvement
Submitted by bibes1949 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 11:53am.
The increase in electric range is a significant improvemt in the Volt battery.
The capacity of the battery was increased, by adjusting the battery chemistry, not the size or weight of the battery.
Since capacity is increased and electricity flows into it at a certain rate, the time needed to recharge increased. For example, my Volt recharges fully from 2:15A-6:15A every morning. With the new, increased capacity, the recharge would start at 2AM and still be ready for me at 6:15 AM.
Speaking of bias in the media, has this site informed readers that over that last decade there have been, on average, about 200,000 fires in gasoline powered vehicles EACH YEAR?
All cars carry a lot of energy in them and are a fire risk.
THE 200,000 fires you speak
Submitted by LAM SON 719 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 12:44pm.
THE 200,000 fires you speak of a due to accident involvement and lack of maintenance in old cars, they aren't catching within a year of being driven off the lot. Better find a new tale to peddle. BTW a longer charging time means more environmental destruction does it not?
Fires, Environmental effect
Submitted by bibes1949 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:48pm.
I expect there are a range of causes for the huge number of fires in gasoline vehicles. Within my experience, 5 chidren were killed in a single vehicle fire outside Chicago when a piece of metal broke off a truck and punctured the gas tank of the vehicle the children were in. They were engulfed in flames before their parents could stop the vehicle There was nothing about their vehicle being old or poorly maintained that caused the deaths.
All driving harms the environment. The power for my Volt comes from nuclear, with lessor amts of coal and increasingly wind. It charges at night, reducing the need for additional power plants, but all energy use produces environmental damage.
The beauty of the Volt is that it reduces that damage.
It is also a wonderful car to drive, quiet and smooth as glass when on electric power.
Please note, that once a year, as part of their product review, Consumers Reports magazine asks auto owners one simple question, "Would you buy this car again?"
A higher percentage of Volt owners said they would buy it again than any other auto sold in the United States. The Porsche 911 was second.
A higher percentage of Volt owners said they'd buy it again?
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:16am.
Would that be a percentage of the 8k or so that have been sold? And, does that include all of the government employees that drive Volts that the Federal government bought, to keep the Volt production line open?
Would Volt buyers pay again
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:26am.
if they didn't benefit from the subsidies and credits offered by the tax payers so they could drive their 'specialty car'.
Plus, it is only sense that a higher number of volt owners would purchase another Volt because they purchased for reasons that the Volt specifically met. They don't have the same level of competition as other types of automobiles.
➚ Agnostic
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:30am.
I guess an air-conditioned golf cart would be nice.
CA,
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:34am.
They even have one for the DC crowd:
http://www.luxurycarts.com/royal-limo/
➚ bibes, you dufus
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:28am.
You opened an account 13 hours ago to post info from Consumer Reports because you need us to allay your own buyers remorse.
Who the heck has already owned a Volt more than a year?
Get back with us when you go in for a trade-in, or to replace (and dispose of) that hunk of toxic waste you call a battery.
did I link Consumer reports?
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:18pm.
did I link Consumer reports? Maybe I did, but that wasnt what brought me here.
I have owned the Volt since January 7, 2012. The Volt was not nationwide until the end of 2011. Some early adopters have just had it for a little over a year.
The Spring Troll Surge(TM) is in full swing!
Submitted by Free Stinker on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 12:57pm.
Lots and lots of new posters who've only been here for mere hours . . .
It's as if they are being paid to do it!
/// Sarah Palin Fan since July 11, 2007 /// خال
Free
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 1:05pm.
Surely a coincidence, but schools just let out here in PA...
Am I not getting this?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 1:05pm.
If your Volt recharges fully from 2:15A-6:15A every morning, and now you start recharging at 2:00 AM, and it's fully charged by 6:15 AM, aren't you charging for 15 minutes longer?
Rad, Ol'1949, lost his way to work just 2Km away.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 1:18pm.
If you are stuck in a left turn lane, with your blinker on that shortens the driving distance by 30%.
Hay there ol'1949... tell us what was invented first the battery or the internal-combustion engine?
You Didn't Build That.
Numbers really mean nothing on their own
Submitted by Nonanon on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 8:35pm.
It seems to me that in so many situations where numbers are thrown about, rarely is any context for them given. How many gas powered vehicles are on the road verses how many electric or hybrids are? I don't have the numbers, but we know there is a huge difference in those two figures which will make any simple comparison useless. The ratio of vehicle fires in GP vs EP vehicles in use is the number you need to look at to make any sense out of it.
It is similar to this statistic I've heard for years about you are most likely to be in an automobile accident within 25 miles of your home. It sound ominous until you realize most people rarely drive more than 25 miles from their home, making it impossible to have an accident farther than 25 miles from home!
On another subject about numbers is the number of jobs lost at the end of Bush's term. There were so many more jobs TO lose at that time, but it keeps getting presented as if it was happening each month and never changed. It was bad but there is never context given when the number is put out there.
bibes1949 ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 12:22pm.
Liberal !
I think I shall disregard your glowing report on the Volt battery - while pointing out that it is not NewsBusters mission to report on annual vehicle fires.
MD
The Volt is a great car
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 3:37pm.
I am a Republican, and for the life of me, don't understand where some Republican's have placed their brains when talking about the Volt. If you are going to criticize this car, you should start without spreading misinformation.
Fact #1:
Outside of the government testing, there have been NO FIRES AS A RESULT OF THE VOLT. There were THREE garage fires that the Volt happened to be in, but in all of those cases, they were CLEARED by the fire marshall as the fault. You can pretend the Volt is a fire hazard, and make all the ignorant jokes you want, but the case remains that the Volt has a stellar consumer record thus far with fires. The only reason there was a fire after the NHTSA tests were a result of the battery coolant coming in contact with the battery cells after a violent side collision THREE DAYS after the impact and causing a short. The only way NHTSA was able to reproduce this was taking the battery OUT OF THE CAR and hitting it with the sled. So keep on making your jokes, it only makes you look stupid to the people that actually know the facts.
Fact #2:
The AVERAGE Volt owner is getting more than 120 MPG. That means they aren't lugging around a brick, like the idiot writing the article seems to indicate. The 40 miles range is VERY useful in more than DOUBLING the effective MPG of a Toyota Prius. Personally, I drive 70 miles each day, ALL ELECTRIC. I charge at home and at work, and the 40 mile range is enough so my effective MPG is 700, and that is putting 22k miles on the Volt in one year. What is my cost in electricity for the first 9000 electric miles? $170. Since the car can drive with gas, it doesnt matter how long it takes to really charge the car. With a 240V charger, it is still about 4 hours! So what if you don't get a full charge?? That is what the gas generator is for.
"The latest example of this unthinking media fealty is their “reporting” on the latest bit of “news” on the unprofitable and serially combustible Chevy Volt."
That is interesting, since the author has linked to an article over TWO YEARS old, BEFORE the Volt was being sold. GM has stated publically that they are making a small profit on every Volt sold, which is better that Toyota can claim about the first Prius's, when they were selling them at a 10K a year loss. Secondly, its ironic when drivers of GASOLINE vehicles can call any other vehicle 'serially combustable'. Look at the facts, not the rhetoric.
This article, and the author, is a joke. If you want to see the tons of reasons I bought a Volt (and green isnt even on the list), then see http://voltowner.blogspot.com.
Or keep thinking that drilling a lot of oil is going to fix all our problems. I can't wait to see your expression if we are able to wean ourself off foreign oil what happens to prices when OPEC gradually reduces their output to match our increases, keeping prices EXACTLY where they are now.
So what did you name it?
Submitted by SickofLibs on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 3:40pm.
;)
Just one question
Submitted by jon_torlin on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:10pm.
How much is your electric bill these days? You mentioned $170 for the first 9000 miles, but that's not telling the whole story.
What happens if you miss paying your electricity bill?
And what happens when you aren't able to sustain a charge like you used to? Those batteries won't last forever, how much would it cost to replace them as well as the disposal fee of the old ones?
Oh and what's your collision insurance in one of these things? Did you save 15% at Geico?
-Jon
Electric usage.
Submitted by bibes1949 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:54pm.
My Volt has it's own electric line and meter, so I know exactly how much it uses.
It varies from 45-65 cents per day in electricity. The larger amount is when the battery is fully discharged. The 45 cents of electricity takes me to and from work which is 25.6 miles round trip.
If I recharge during the day, it costs about $1.90, so I avoid that.
Still kissing your own ass, braggart troll
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:02am.
My volt. My volt. My volt. Anyone else here talking about something they own as if they just gave birth to it hours ago? Only braggart trolls act like this. Let's repeat that article for the braggart trolls here.
First, it is important to recognize that true operating cost consists of depreciation, insurance and maintenance as well as energy consumption. The high cost of the Volt puts it at an immediate disadvantage to conventionally powered vehicles. Even after federal and state tax giveaways, the vehicle costs about $15,000 more than comparable gas-powered cars. It is unlikely that the car will hold much of its value considering that improvements should be made in alternate vehicle technology (thus making the Volt obsolete within years) and the battery is expected to begin depleting well before year 8. Current cost estimates for battery replacement are about $8,000. The battery has an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty so General Motors may be incurring the costs to replace batteries as owners approach year 8.
~ I would guess the average range, under a variety of conditions, to be closer to 30 to 35 miles. Many small fuel efficient vehicles will get about that many miles per gallon, so you can essentially save a gallon of gas a day.
~ Disregarding the gas used in initial battery phase as well as the higher cost of premium fuel and using $3.70 a gallon for gas the simple math gives us a savings of about $2 a day. That is under pretty much optimal conditions. This is not fuzzy math, just a basic calculation that is easy to understand. How is it that proponents are claiming that so much can be saved by buying a Volt?
~ There are lots of other comments made by those who claim to own Volts who say they are saving so much money. I don't know what their motivations are, but anyone who wants to save $2 a day by spending an extra $15,000 does not have a very keen sense for investing.
~ How technologically advanced is a car that has a power source that takes 12 hours to charge only to have the capacity of one gallon of gas? And why are taxpayers footing the bill?
Saaay Voltdriver how big is that charger?
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:42pm.
Personally, I drive 70 miles each day, ALL ELECTRIC.
Consider that the Volt gets an efficiency of about 3 Miles per Kw*h.
The volt battery ain't that big...It's only has about 10.4 kW·h of usable energy.
Lots of energy losses along the way, charging your volt from coal.
Lucky you are a flatlander, and drive under 25 MPH.
Won't work for me from Costco to my house is a 3,000 feet elevation gain.
You Didn't Build That.
Making some bad assumptions
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:46pm.
I don't drive 70 miles a day at 25 MPH. My commute is about 65% highway at 65 MPG. While I am not in a mountainous area, my area also has a lot of hills and elevation change.
3,000 feet is a lot of elevation change. It is give and take. Your ride up the mountain will discharge energy quickly, but your ride down the mountain will likely lose no energy, and you'll have 40 miles to go on a charge at the bottom.
And I don't care strictly about the efficiency. Efficiency is only a small part of the equation. What I want is a way to utilize the abundance of energy sources we already have (coal and natural gas) that don't require us to import more oil. Electric cars are a perfect way to tap that energy.
BS vd, you hosing us down with 200% performance values
Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 1:34am.
What's this "no energy" coming down the hill, hello... real world... where wind resistance and rolling friction come into play.
Ain't it a crime to disengage the engine from the transmission, according to State driving code?
Oh BTW Any data on those cutting edge regenerative braking systems?
Recoup all 'dat energy from a descent at 3,000 ft. to Zero ft. in 20 minutes?
Come on the likely hood of 2 voltsters on the same thread in one blog...
Casablanca gin joint odds ... Oh man... berzzamp
You Didn't Build That.
downhill
Submitted by bibes1949 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:15am.
When coasting downhill, or braking, energy is captured and stored in the battery.
In a typical gasoline powered car that energy is wasted as heat.
bibes,
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:24am.
I think it is great that you like your car and I congratulate you on finding an automobile the fits your self image so well.
My only questions are would you still buy it if the tax payers hadn't subsidized so much of the cost for you - including initiatives, rebates, discounts, credits and subsidies? At the true price of development and manufacturing, would you buy it again?
would I buy
Submitted by bibes1949 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:19pm.
Sure, I didn't buy the Volt to save mney. I bought it to use less oil.
(Insert P.T. Barnum's famous line on suckers here)
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:12am.
Hey, more oil for me to use. Oil is a wonderful thing. And I don't care where it comes from. Alberta, Texas, Alaska...matters not. And only 15% or so of our oil comes from the EVIL Middle East.
So, as you are committed to using less oil, because I guess oil is inherently evil...you use no plastic whatsoever? What of your computer, your electronics? Giving those up soon? No popping aspirin for you if you are getting a headache...you want to use less oil. And by the way...HOW MUCH OIL WAS USED TO PRODUCE THAT PRECIOUS VOLT?
(Yes it's my truck. No I will not help you move.)
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
here ya' go unsane*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:19am.
Here is an easy list.
http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm
Don't you just lol when idiots talk about no longer needing oil...
Bibes
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:25am.
When idling, does the Volt recharge the battery?
idling
Submitted by bibes1949 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:21pm.
The battery recharges when coasting, but not when idling at a stop.
bibes, Not enough to coast up a hill.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:45pm.
The amount is so small the volt does not publish the quantity.
You Didn't Build That.
My ideal electric car....
Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 1:45am.
A private car company...
You Didn't Build That.
A couple of articles
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:29pm.
Since the author like cherry picking his data, some which is really old an outdated. The two consumer fires he mentions above were both cleared by the fire marshalls. I am linking you to two gm-volt.com articles, where the fire marshalls are QUOTED.
http://gm-volt.com/2011/11/15/chevy-volt-was-not-the-source-of-nc-house-...
http://gm-volt.com/2011/05/18/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-unofficially-clea...
Jon:
My car uses about 32 kWh per 100 miles. If you take my approximate miles driven electric, divide by 100 (to get 100 mile units) then multiply by 32 (the energy required to go 100 miles), this amounts to 2,880 kWh. My rate averages to 6 cents per kilowatt hour. That amounts to $172. Half of that charging is at work, half at home. That amounts to $34 a month in electricity. I can barely tell I even charge the car at home.
If I don't pay my electricity bill, then the car works just fine as a gas car, averaging 36 MPG.
The batteries are warrantied to NOT lose more than 30% of capacity at 10 years/100k miles. GM is stating the expected range is 10-30% loss. That means at 100k miles. WORST CASE, I will get about 28-32 miles per charge, which is DOUBLE the electric range of a brand new plug in prius. I suspect that means I will get about 250 MPG instead of the 750+ I get. GM has test mules with well over 250k miles on the original pack, and they are still performing. Since the Volt can run on gas, diminished electric range just means more gas burning.
My insurance is with AMICA. My rates raised about 15% when I went from a 25k car to a 45k, which is what I expected.
Why, as a Republican, I bought the Volt:
http://voltowner.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html
That's ok
Submitted by jon_torlin on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:43pm.
That's all well and good, but speaking as a conservative(not a Republican), I wouldn't want one of those cars for a number of reasons, #1, it's endorsed by the current administration which many of us have a huge problem with, #2, it's a government product because they basically own GM which should now be called "Government Motors" instead of "General Motors."
#3, I'm a truck kind of guy and the idea of an electric vehicle just bugs the hell out of me, in my opinion, electric vehicles should only be golf carts(or other recreation), not your main source of transportation.
And yes, I know the Volt is not all electric, but a hybrid between gas and electric just doesn't belong together, again my opinion, but forcing two things together which normally wouldn't work together also bugs the hell out of me. Seems like it's more problems than it's worth.
I'm all about saving money and getting a Volt just won't do it for me.
-Jon
points
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:50pm.
Jon,
I don't think just because the Obama administration likes electric cars that it means they are bad things. The car was designed and developed when Bush was in office, and pushed by a conservative Bob Lutz. In fact, Bush signed in the first tax credit for both hybrids and electric.
My car is every bit as functional as any other car on the road, so I don't understand your logic behind electric engines only being suitable for golf carts. If it works, it works. I personally think that coupling the range extender to the electric car is pure genius. Its why the Volt is selling more than any other electric car out there, and is selling more than 90% of all hybrids. It just works.
And as stated before, electric cars are PART of the solution, not THE solution. They won't float everyone's boat. I can take that. Just realize that for a lot of people, they work really well.
The Volt has THE highest customer satisfication rating of ANY car in history. Its not just luck.
Really? THE highest customer satisfaction rating
Submitted by UpNorth on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 5:32pm.
of ANY car, ever? Care to source that? And, no not a talking point from the administration, or Government Motors' advertising.
"My car is every bit as functional as any other car on the road". Can it get out of it's own way when a driver attempts to merge with the 70 mph+ traffic on a freeway? Either of our two vehicles has no trouble doing that, just curious how fast a Volt is when trying to merge into traffic.
I live farther north than you do, unless someone makes a viable, dependable 4x4 pickup hybrid, you won't see one in my driveway. And, how do those batteries hold up in sub-zero weather? How fast do they run down, especially with all the other electrical items also running?
Blame it on Bush, However GM was into electric cars IN THE '90's
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 5:36pm.
EV1
You Didn't Build That.
VD, Nice touch that you skipped all them electrical losses.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 5:09pm.
Say where do I get a charger that's over 100% efficient?
Note: that for automotive batteries the charging time may be limited by the available power rather than the battery characteristics. Domestic 13 Amp ring main circuits can only deliver 3KW. Thus, assuming no efficiency loss in the charger, a ten hour charge will at maximum put 30 KWh of energy into the battery. Enough for about 100 miles. Compare this with filling a car with petrol. It takes about 3 minutes to put enough chemical energy into the tank to provide 90 KWh of mechanical energy, sufficient to take the car 300 miles. To put 90 KWh of electrical energy into a battery in 3 minutes would be equivalent to a charging rate of 1.8 MegaWatts!!
You Didn't Build That.
time
Submitted by bibes1949 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 6:49pm.
It takes me 30 seconds to plug in my car. The car then charges itself while I sleep at night.
I spend much less time on fueling activities now than my wife does with her gasoline powered car.
Sounds good,
Submitted by Boudin on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 7:41pm.
But you will never recoup the 20k in 10 years. I think I will wait a little longer
cost
Submitted by bibes1949 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:22pm.
Again, I did not buy the Volt to save money. I bought it to use less oil.
More for
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 7:47pm.
Us
So...
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:15am.
No plastic bags for you, no aspirin for you, no electronics for you, no computer for you, and no Internet for you.
Hey, you think oil is so evil...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
➚ No, bibes
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:43pm.
You bought the Volt because you thought it was a neat idea forcing me to help you pay for it.
GM is the suck that keeps on sucking.
Put another way
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 4:41pm.
I pay 1.9 cents per mile in electricity. based on the average gas prices in North Carolina today:
Prius: 7 cents per mile.
Any car @30 MPG 11.5 cents per mile.
Any car @22 MPG 15.5 cents per mile.
That is as close to the whole story as I can get. When they start to get benefits out of economies of scale, and the price is driven down, these cars will truly be affordable, with or without the tax subsidy. Like all things, time is needed to bring the price down, and it will happen.
Another way to look at the battery range increase: They were able to give the person a slightly larger battery, and about 10% of additional range at no additional cost.
Average cost for electricity
Submitted by CobraMan on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 5:29pm.
Average costs for electricity generation: 230 gallons of gas per kilowatt hour (equivalent). Average electricity needed to recharge a Chevy Volt, 1.2 Kilowatts per hour. Average time to recharge, 6-8 hours. Add that to your calculations.
Here's some more calculations you should do: Average running time for Chevy Volt, 4 hours. Average running time for 30 mpg car (with 15 gallon tank), 56 hours. These numbers are based upon the average daily miles used by urban commuters. If you think you're saving money by using a Volt, you're wrong. You have to "fill up" that Volt around 12 times as often than a 30 mpg car.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Thfe Volt is more expensive
Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 4:27pm.
The Volt is more expensive when gov. subsidies, the charger, home repairs due to fier damage, and repairs are added in. You could sit in it while it's charging and get a tan though.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
Man these braggart trolls are bendy.
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:07am.
Constantly bending over to kiss their own ass over a car that saves one gallon of gas a day. $15,000 extra to get it for a car that has little resale value after a few years and needs a major expenditure of cash every 8 years just to replace the battery pack.
How well the Volt works is irrelevant
Submitted by fdew on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 5:13pm.
The Volt is made by GM. GM is owned by the government. I am a capitalist. I will never own one.
Pink elephants are made of
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 6:08pm.
Pink elephants are made of cotton candy.
Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. I think you need to do some more research on electricity.
Just off the top of my head, 1 gallon of gas should yield 10 kWh
Pink elephants are made of
Submitted by voltdriver on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 6:08pm.
Pink elephants are made of cotton candy.
Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. I think you need to do some more research on electricity.
Just off the top of my head, 1 gallon of gas should yield 10 kWh
"Just because you say it,
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:52am.
doesn't make it true". I'm glad you brought that up. Now, please provide a cite that the Volt is just the bestest car ever made, and that everyone who has one is just so in love with it.
I believe this was you up thread, "The Volt has THE highest customer satisfication rating of ANY car in history".
Edit: And, hopefully, the sample of owners will be larger than 50 or even 500.
here ya go!
Submitted by voltdriver on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 9:57am.
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Page...
http://www.inautonews.com/chevrolet-volt-buyers-are-the-most-satisfied-c...
Seriously, a GM newsletter?
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 7:34pm.
And, the other was a CR report that surveyed a large sample, all "116 of them owned the Chevrolet Volt". 116? And, at press time of that article, a whopping 5,300 Volts had been subsidized, er, sold.
Puh-lease, you beclown your self, and do shame to hard working trolls everywhere.
acceleration in my Volt
Submitted by bibes1949 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 6:45pm.
My sense is that my Volt has better accelaration on electric power than when running off the gasoline generator.
To compare it to behicles I've owned, on gasoline it accelerates like a 4 cylinder Accord. On battery power the acceleration is more like the 6 cylinder Accord.
I usually am on country roads and 2 lane highways and passing is much like any other sedan I 've owned.
Though I support the auto bailouts, I understand why conservatives object to them.
Remeber, as others have pointed out, that GM committed to production of the Volt during the Bush administration and before the auto collapse. The Volt is not a product of the auto bailout. I had decided to buy a Volt, my first GM car (I'm 63), in 2006 when I first saw the prototype.
Trash the bailouts and the UAW if you want for political reasons, but recognize the Volt as the magnificent piece of engineering that it is.
This is interesting*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 7:01pm.
NB is now being visited by lib troll/spammers. GM must be getting desperate.
For the trolls.... It isn't always about time, it isnt about efficiency, it isnt always about being "green". Depending on the locale, it is about usefulness and more important, safety. Where I live, if I drove a volt or one of those other lil bitty cars, I could easily find myself floating to the Gulf of Mexico. And tell me, how do you put 5 kids in a volt?
From a Liberal
Submitted by bibes1949 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:21am.
I am very liberal and have enjoyed the exchange with you folks.
I hope it has made the conversation more fun for you too.
I will
Submitted by bobsmom on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 7:14pm.
put Volts on my list of things to worship, right after I'm done worshipping the piggy tail light bulb.............the 12th of never.
Yea just like that other GM Volt..that one in the 90's
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 7:17pm.
EV1
The EV1 was a marvel of engineering, absolutely the best electric vehicle anyone had ever seen.
Where have we heard that before... hummm
You Didn't Build That.
Butterscotch or Vanilla?
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:10am.
What flavor lotion do you spread on your ass before you kiss it, braggart troll?
Really debunking his entire 'flammable' nonsense
Submitted by voltdriver on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:50pm.
Finally had enough of this. Pulled all the sources completely rendering the vast majority of his argument about the combustability of the Volt moot. I'll probably work on the other 'myths' this idiot is perpetuating in another blog, but it takes 10x more worth to actually do good reporting (what I am trying to do) than bad reporting (what Seton does).
http://voltowner.blogspot.com/2012/06/volt-fire-myth-debunked.html
voltdriver ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:41pm.
as a liberal, the "reporting" you do is liberally biased.
It shows, big time; and bad-mouthing Seton Motley unnecessarily is not only a poor way to attempt to beef up your side of the argument; it proves my point.
MD
MD, his last post shows this was all a
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 11:54pm.
feeble attempt to pimp out his own blog. Nothing more, his sources are his, unless he borrows from GM, or his pathetically weak "116" owners of the Dolt, er Volt "survey".
UpNorth, your ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:03am.
7:34 post pretty well nailed him.
Maybe ol' vd is turning a tad surly, eh?
Heh.
MD
Matthew*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:13am.
All trolls get a bit surly due to disappointment. They come to NB to lie and spew bs due to an assumption that NBers are the same intellectual level of Kos. Then they encounter many NBers that easily destroy and refute their nonsense like upnorth and others.
It can be annoying or for some of us, it can be fun to watch....;-)
Your guys...
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 10:46am.
Are so funny. You obviously didn't read the post, or you would see I have better sources that this Seton idiot.
If quoting fire marshals, and government investigations, and everyone surrounding these instances is using bad sources, I'll take them all day. You can continue to believe this idiot, and his incomplete and outdated information. I can't help the stupid not be stupid. Believe what you want!
My sources are better than yours, nyah nyah.
Submitted by UpNorth on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 10:53am.
Sheesh, grow up, learn to converse with adults, then come back and try again.
I'll be happy to talk with adults
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 11:12am.
That actually concede when they have been proven wrong. I have zero respect for people that are shown the truth, and choose not to believe it. If that is your example of an adult, I'll be something else. I rarely call people idiots, as it is absolutely counterproductive. But in Seton's case, he deserves it. He has written more hugely biased factually incorrect hit pieces of the Volt than I care to remember. He is either purposely not telling the truth, or he is an idiot. From my interactions with him, I think he's probably just an idiot.
And I'm not a liberal. I have been a registered Republican all my life.
Who knew, one could register as a republican in kindergarten
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 11:59am.
Back in the day when GM was ran by folks that considered a profit an important part of running a company GM was forced to build an electric car.
The EV1, as the price of oil dropped the car became a piece of junk.
The price of oil is already falling.... about 83 bucks today.
GM lost a pile of money on that electric car adventure....
Same as today the real cost of the volt is much higher than what you paid for it.
Now that GM is owned by tax payers, who cares about evil profit.
As a republican do you feel great ripping off the tax payers by buying a volt?
You Didn't Build That.
For the Volt-obsessed poster
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:21pm.
That's great. You tell us your PARTY but not your IDEOLOGY. So what if you've been a registered Republican? That doesn't mean you aren't a Leftist.
You drive your silly Volt - which will be out of production just as soon as the subsidies are gone - I'll drive my evil, 15 mpg city/20 mpg highway truck. Yes it's my truck, no I will not help you move.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
That's ok. Make sure you
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:37pm.
That's ok. Make sure you give a marine an extra pat on the back next time you see him. You owe him a little extra so you can stick your head in the sand and drive your truck worry free. It is their lives that are being risked to help bring you the oil at a price you can afford so you don't have to consider any alternatives.
Don't believe me? See for yourself:
http://ntl.bts.gov/data/military.pdf
➚ So, Revolt Driver
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:40pm.
Were you a corpse-man, or are you just throwing the Marine thing in there to make us think you actually have done something worthwhile in your lifetime?
Nope
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:44pm.
The people that serve this country, including you if you served, have truly done more than I'll ever do for this country.
Which is why I don't want them to die protecting global oil infrastructure. I'd rather them fight for other causes. I'd rather the people in this country have some long term vision with the energy policy and see that we need a MIX of regular gas cars, electric, and compressed natural gas to keep us safe, keep us insulated from nasty external oil producers, and to give consumers finally a choice of what fuel they can use to drive their car with. And unfortunately, the government has propped oil up so much, subsidies are the only way to get the technology developed, built, and scaled so costs can come down for future generations.
Propaganda of another kind
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:54pm.
Which is why I don't want them to die protecting global oil infrastructure. Which unfortunately for you is not what our military is doing. but then, as you have been programmed to hate oil deeply and passionately, you don't know how to argue different.
I'm all for the market (voltpropagandist, the market is - forget it) finding out what other alternative fuels are out there. The problem is that the best solutions come from the bottom up most of the time. (If the iPhone sucked, would we have in industry for apps? Or, what of the argument waged in aviation in the 1960s and 1970s: move few people very very fast or move a LOT of people very slowly? As we have seen now that we have 1500 or so Boeing 747s and only ever had 16 Concordes, we know who won the argument.) What YOU want is a command and control approach, where people like you get to bully people with impunity over their vehicle choices.
My view is simple: if the silly Volt works, fine. It will fly of the lot on its own without subsidies. (Quick! Name the iPhone's subsidy...oh, right, people like the product so much that Apple can't keep it on the shelves!). If other fuel alternatives work without government coddling, great! If people want to stick with what works, and want to decide what to drive on their own - without the likes of you barking orders at people - awesome!
I'm keeping the truck. Deal with it.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I don't know how to respond
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:00pm.
I don't know how to respond to you. Reports from our own government, that I have happily linked you to, prove that we spend billions sending troops overseas to protect oil infrastructure. You can deny the evidence all you want, but its in print and all around you.
All of your posts are based on a false premise.
Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:16pm.
If you believe that all our military is about protecting oil you are much dumber than I originally thought.
Also your "facts" about the operating costs of the volt leave out many expenses involved, and the cost of repairs compared to conventional vehicles.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
Actually, they are left out
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:25pm.
Actually, they are left out on purpose. Anythig to do with the Voltec drive system (pretty much everything except the gas motor)is covered to 100k miles and 10 years. There will be less maintenance on a Volt than on a traditional vehicle, especially during the first 100k miles.
Liberal gobbledegook
Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:20pm.
Those expenses will be paid for by taxpayers courtesy of Government motors. Yfou liberal love anything paid for taxpayers. That is the core of the problem. We the taxpayers have to foot the bill for all your liberal fantasies.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
Put it another way. You want
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:28pm.
Put it another way. You want to know the scheduled maintenance during the first 100k miles of the Volt?
Rotate tires every 7500 miles
Change Oil every 2 years
Thats it.
you want to know how many brake pads I am likely to change in the first 100k miles? Zero. The regenerative braking reducing braking by 75%, and as a result, just like Prius owners, brake changes are far and few.
Feel more smug and superior
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:51pm.
This will make you feel more smug and superior, no doubt.
If a car requires that little maintenance, I am sure the free market will see to it that it gets swept off the lot. So why doesn't the government stop subsidizing it?
I maintain my truck a bit more frequently than than, but then, I actually use my truck.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
And for the record, I didnt
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:29pm.
And for the record, I didnt say our military was 'all about protecting oil'. You did.
Omission
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:48pm.
You didn't indicate it was used for any other purpose until you were called on it.
What exactly did you want me to conclude?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Deal with it
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 3:00pm.
Don't respond to me. Deal with it, and accept that I drive a truck BECAUSE I WANT TO. I know that if you had your way, you would be forcing every American to buy a Volt at the point of a gun, but this country isn't at that point. Yet.
Acceptance that people are different is the path to maturity and joining the rest of us adults.
And once again you indicate that you think the military exists for ONE sole purpose: to protect evil oil infrastructure. And you have already indicated on this thread that you simply hate oil. Doubtless ANY attempt by this country to develop its own oil suppiles will have you throwing a fit.
You aren't a liberal, you are a registered Republican: yet you hate free markets, you hate oil, you are angry that people still can choose what they wish to drive of thier own freewill, you view the military with contempt 9and only began typing praise of the military when called on your crap by two vets). I suspect you of being intellectually dishonest, to be very polite.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I consider the
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:09pm.
I consider the diversification of the transportation system CRITICAL to the national security of this country. The free market has NO BUSINESS determining our national security. It is unfortunate we have so subsidized oil to the point where you have to subsidize other forms of transportation to get it going, but it is the system we are left with. Why Republicans on this forum, who should be students of history, cannot look back the terrible recessions and hardships places on people through any recessions as a result or through influence of high energy prices is beyond me. How we can be brought to the brink of economic collapse so many times with energy spikes, and still claim a single source transportation system is a good idea is beyond me.
And the tired evergreen of 'Drilling fixes things.' It fixes one thing.... Foreign Trade Deficit. That is it.
voltpropagandist
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:37pm.
The free market has NO BUSINESS determining our national security Your mask is slipping. You clearly do not believe in the free market. And you seem to think this site is filled with party hacks. Get it through your head: I'm not a Republican. I am a conservative. This site isn't about party; it IS about ideology.
We subsidize oil? You could have fooled me. Then why am I paying taxes on oil every time I fill up?
This whole post reveals the truth: YOU HATE OIL. You do not want there to be ANY attempts by this country to take advantages of its own sources of energy. We are to drive Volts and SHUT UP. Driling does a LOT more than help the trade deficit. It also expands the economy because people have to be paid to drill the oil, find it to begin with, transport it, refine it, and get it to market.
Where did you get your economics degree from? I ask because you need to go back and demand a full refund. You are applying your knowledge very very poorly.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I'll give my own back an extra pat, thanks
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:41pm.
Actually, you ought to be thanking ME. And above all, come on down here on November 11, and drop my drawers and kiss my ass. You see, I am a veteran.
And I am curious - when did the Marines enter Alberta? You know, where most of our imported oil comes from?
You have a lot to learn about the posters here, about oil, geography, the military, foreign affairs and international relations, before you shoot off your mouth about them. Driving your precious Volt makes you feel smug and far superior to the rest of us rubes, but clearly it doesn't make you smarter.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I appreciate your
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:47pm.
I appreciate your service.
But I suspect I know more about energy policy than you. Not only did I major in economics, but I routinely attend conferences put on by the Department of Energy that discuss global energy policy, but have monthly stakeholder meetings with a lot of power producers, and stay very informed of the energy.
I am well aware we get most our imported oil. It honesltly doesnt matter where it comes from. It is a GLOBAL market. The military is required to protect vulnerable oil infrastructure abroad, even if it does not service us directly, because disruptions in the global market affect ALL of us. OPEC can tomorrow cut 10% of its output. Our suppliers don't have to sell to us. They will sell to whoever wants the oil and will pay the most. And that is exactly what will happen.
➚ They do too, reVolt
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:52pm.
The fungibility of money is what makes the Iranian sanctions a joke, and you should know it (if you are truly an economist)
The whole Middle East can refuse to sell directly to us, but unless they choose to stop other-than-domestic-procuction completely, we can easily buy their oil through an intermediary.
http://www.washingtonpost.com
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:58pm.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/why-more-drilling-wo...
You continue to assume that OPEC maintains the same production quotas. They have proven more than capable of reducing supply to the market, creating shortages, in an ability to raise their price per unit of crude.
Assuming...
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:11pm.
And you continue to assume the world's oil comes from OPEC only (psst! OPEC has TWO Latin American countries, among others!). And you continue to assume that OPEC members don't pump more than their quota to make a little more cash.
What's that they say about assuming again?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I have stated my position on
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:24pm.
I have stated my position on this numerous times. You either havent read it, or can't comprehend the argument. I can't help you with that. There is a new economics in world oil supply now that world producers know there is limited cheap additional supply, and that the world continues to hum along at $100 a barrel for oil. Production cuts by any major producer, not just OPEC, can create a shortage that is unfillable. You can have some producers fail to cut oil as instructed, but it won't matter. The excess supply is so small that it wont make a difference.
sU nioJ
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:18pm.
I have read it repeatedly and the conclusion I can draw is that your refuse to read or to try and comprehend arguments not offered by His Majesty The Shahinshah's Department of Energy or offered by yourself. You need to get out of the 1970s and join us here in the 2010s. The last time I heard of a "new economics" it turned out to be yet another bubble: in that case the dot.com bubble of the late 1990s. The world producers know there is a limited cheap additional supply, you say? Peanut Jimmy is not president anymore. The world price of oil is around $83 or so if I remember the last time I looked at the NYMEX price. As long as it stays about $60, other sources: shale, for instance, becomes economically viable and thus allows for more supply to keep up with demand. ND, SD, and MT are in the midst of an insane oil boom. So are many stretches of south TX - a part of the state not typically associated with oil.
Now, I know you are living in extreme, total FEAR of just one supplier, JUST ONE SUPPLIER, especially the EVIL OPEC, cutting production EVEN A LITTLE TINY BIT - but you fail to take account what is going on in the world of oil (that is, presently, not 40 years ago). You need to look around you at what the world of petroleum production is in the 2010s.
And let me guess - if the United States does ANYTHING at all to get to its own oil supply - even drilling on the measly 2% of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge needed to tap the oil there - you will be the FIRST to THROW A FIT. We are just supposed to SHUT UP AND ALL DRIVE VOLTS. THEY WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
voltpropagandist
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:09pm.
Wow, you majored in economics and attend conferences put on by the Department of Energy? I am so impressed! You know, I actually handled flights made by the Secretary of Energy! So there!
I'll sleep so much better at night knowing all of this...
So, if you majored in economics, why are you so in favor of a command-and control, top-down, you-poking-your-finger-in-my-chest-barking-orders-at-me approach to what people choose to drive?
You honestly aren't aware where we get most of our imported oil or else you wouldn't be talking exclusively about "Middle East oil" or whining about how our poor military is only being used to protect vulnerable oil infrastructure (some good that's doing in Nigeria. How come our Marines there aren't preventing oil infrastructure sabotage there?). The only thing you are doing is spewing propaganda, and now you are playing your "I'm so smart! Look at me! I'm degreed and hang out with the wizards of smart!!!" card to make yourself into some sort of authority figure.
Our suppliers don't have to sell to us, but guess what? They are idiots if they don't sell to us. More money for them. It's why OPEC (again, you are focused on OPEC and the Middle East like a good cliche) always has sucked at trying to control the price of oil. There is always one or two other producers that cheat and produce more than their quota. And contrary to all the posters who think that PM Harper can just throw a switch and send Albertan oil to China JUST LIKE THAT, Canada doesn't have the means (yet) to economically ship the oil over the Rockies to shipping terminals that will take oil to China. (Hell, British Columbia is fighting themselves over that, and many are opposed to the idea.) Where exactly would Canada send that oil if not the United States?
Other suppliers are similarly screwed. Venezuela, for instance, has to send their oil to the Carribbean or to the southern United States - because these are the ONLY PLACES IN THE WORLD where their crude can be refined.
Gee, you are the DoE connected economics major - why don't you know all this? Why does a shmoe like me know all of this? Oh, I have degrees of my own, but you should have figured that out on your own.
Tell you what: just smugly drive your silly Volt, feel superior to the rest of us...and stop using plastic anything, no aspirin for you if you get a headache...and in fact, why are you online pontificating to the rest of us using a computer made with petroleum products? Among many other things around you made with evil petroleum products?
Like YOUR VERY OWN BELOVED VOLT?????
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Ugh. What a diatribe. For
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:15pm.
Ugh. What a diatribe. For starters, I've not said for once that we abandon oil. Oil is important. We won't be rid of it. What I support is a DIVERSIFICATION away from oil. Put in an elementary manner, putting your eggs in one basket is NOT a good idea. Especially with the weight of the nation in that basket.
Second: Of course our suppliers will continue to supply us with oil if OPEC cuts prices. Thats not the point. The point is they'll keep supplying us, because we are going to be willing to pay more for the oil than anyone else. We have to be, or they will ship it gladly to China. That means that a production shortage, intentional or not somewhere else in the world, will affect us.
Thirdly: We are beyond the old market economics of the old OPEC. We are in a MUCH tighter market, with limited new supplies coming onto the market, and our conventional crude supplies have already peaked. OPEC absolutely can negatively influence the price of oil. Or Iran for that matter.
if OPEC cuts prices was
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:19pm.
if OPEC cuts prices was intended to be:
if OPEC cuts production
Not impressed
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:48pm.
I like market-driven diversification. You do not. You want to walk around, driving your finger into people's chests, barking orders at them, ordering them as to why you will not let them drive anything else other than a Volt, punctuation each word with a poked finger in their chest each time. You want top-down command-and-control approaches.
Second: If evil OPEC is SO GOOD at controlling the price of oil, then why have they been utterly worthless at it, with some exceptions in the 1970s?
The point is they'll keep supplying us, because we are going to be willing to pay more for the oil than anyone else. We have to be, or they will ship it gladly to America's Scapegoat of China. That means that a production shortage, intentional or not somewhere else in the world, will affect us. And this does not apply to anything else? Why is it that supposedly smart people think a whole different set of laws of economics apply to oil? And it is clear you do not want to understand in any way whatsoever how logistics fits into this.
For one, I would LOVE to watch Hugo send ALL of PDVSA's oil to EVIL China. Why? Because when China gets it, it will be worthless to them. The Chinese cannot refine Venezuelan crude (at least for another 5 years).
And how, exactly, is what you describe a "production shortage"? You must be one of those people fighting tooth and nail to prevent the United States from daring to develop its own supplies of oil.
Third: We are beyond the old market economics of OPEC, YOU say, but you are still stuck in cliches. You hear about what's going on ND, MT, SD? Yeah, and we have peaked in conventional crude supplies? ONLY because people like you gleefully stand in the way, demanding we go buy Volts instead. Oh, and just to horrify you further: south TX (where I am from) is undergoing an oil boom, right now. Just so long as you stay out of the way. We have tons of oil waiting to be recovered. The 2010s are calling, and they want voltpropagandist to come out of the 1970s and join them.
OPEC can negatively influence the price of oil but it has successfully done so rarely. The nations of OPEC are not marching in lockstep and they can and do cheat their production quotas. This is why the cartel has traditionally been so ineffective. And then there is the matter of the nations not in OPEC but yet are major oil producers: Mexico, Canada, Norway, just to name a few.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
His Volt is Tonka
Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:50pm.
His Volt is a Tonka given him by his mom to play with when he isn't allowed on the computer. His stories have too many precise details to be real.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
Yes, apparently on this
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:51pm.
Yes, apparently on this forum, wild unproven accusations are much more salient than actual real world data.
Your precise data is not acceptable to me
Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:58pm.
Your precise data is not acceptable to me. Most of it came from your own imagination and some from Wikiville.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
I guess that makes me happy.
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:02pm.
I guess that makes me happy. Eventually the truth of these matters will be so blinding you'll have to accept them, and apparently they are good enough for you to think I'm not telling the truth. Apparently I need to sit down with a major media company with my power bills and other financials. But you'll probably think I conspired with someone else. So be it.
DoltDriver
Submitted by Free Stinker on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:02pm.
We take a dim view of newbie Liberals who show up and act arrogant. As you have demonstrated, the more arrogant the Liberal, the more clueless they are.
/// Sarah Palin Fan since July 11, 2007 /// خال
You guys are funny. I show
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:05pm.
You guys are funny. I show up with hardcore facts and sources, and all you can come back with me is rhetoric. None of you would have done well in the debate club.
Cliches
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:15pm.
You have also shown up here with endless cliches:
1) the military is only used to protect oil
2) EVIL OPEC controls ALL oil
3) Only the Middle East supplies oil
4) The Volt WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING
5) I have an economics degree and hang out with the DoE. Therefore I am the smartest person on the thread and all of you need to shut up and listen to me unquestioningly.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Actually, I've said none of
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:16pm.
Actually, I've said none of those things. You need to work on your reading skills.
I sense you are getting a bit touchy
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:29pm.
You are losing the argument here and now you are getting angry. It shows in your unwarranted "You need to work on your reading skills" crack. It is pissing you off that we aren't simply shutting up and following your orders energetically and enthusiastically. Not to mention that we are not kowtowing to you as the greatest genius NB has ever seen.
Sorry, dude. You are the one whining that the military is used to defend "global oil infrastructure." (You omit any other rationale for the military to exist so what do you want me to think?) You are the one who tossed out your credentials in a bid to make yourself even more superior to others here. (I guess the Volt even failed in that department, huh?)
I am currently eating a wonderful garlic sausage and red beans and rice (a collsion of cultures as I am a walking collision of cultures), and reading other sites, so forgive me for not quoting you directly. But I did cover the gist of what you were saying. Just admit it.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I'm not pissed. I am amused.
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:35pm.
I'm not pissed. I am amused. If I say one thing, and then you tell me I said something completely different, I can't help that. I didnt bid my credentials until I was told I knew less about economics and energy policy than someone else. My arguments stand on their own merit, but if someone is going to accuse me wrongfully of not knowing much, I'll defend myself and not apologize for it.
The military does tons of good things. I support our wars overseas. But I am also not simple minded enough to think that there isnt a percentage of our reasoning or motives for going to war that were related to oil reserves. It doesnt mean we can't have our cake and eat it to. We are doing, and have done, a lot of good things with our military. I am 100% proud of them, and defend them in every manner I can. But they are over there fighting for not just other people's freedom, but our economic freedrom as well.
Careful unsane*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:40pm.
You never know what will happen with this new species of troll when they get "touchy". I suppose we will be seeing a lot more of these troll/spammers as we get closer to Nov and they are so boring. But I have certainly enjoyed your posts thrown at this one. Please continue.
well, in this case, if
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:49pm.
well, in this case, if throwing stuff at me means not responding to academic research and reports supporting my argument, and throwing out rhetoric, he is doing a great job.
My intensive research reveals:
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:06pm.
Here's MY academic research and reports:
I love my truck.
I live in a state which loves its trucks. Trucks sell more here than cars do.
Whether its a Volt or another car, I cannot do as much with a car as I can with a truck.
I have done many moves in my truck. I have moved many items with it. And as such, it has made me beer by the keg, or by the case.
I have had very few problems with my truck.
Why does the above irritate you so greatly? Why does it infuriate you that people simply do not want to drive your silly Volt?
If it makes you happy, and undoubtedly it makes you feel more smug and superior than everyone around you, keep driving your silly Volt. If you like my truck, great. If you don't, DON'T F****** BUY ONE. And don't demand I buy YOUR silly Volt!
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Okay...
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:00pm.
I am 100% proud of them, and defend them in every manner I can. Well, now you are, since you were confronted by two veterans. Be thankful the rest of the NB veterans hadn't shown up. But they are over there fighting for not just other people's freedom, but our economic freedrom as well. just as long as they don't defend EVIL OIL, right?
I would argue vehemently that the military defends a world regime (think system, not government, in place since 1945 or so) at which this country and its Constitution has been found at its core. Before the more xenophobic posters get any ideas: the whole reason that regime exists is to, in fact, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, first and foremost.
Anyways, you still played that "I'm smarter than anyone else here" card and I have yet to see any indication from you that you know much about the world of oil outside the cliches. Rather than defend yourself and not apologize for it, show don't tell (h/t to Neil Peart). Do your homework and show us that you indeed know what the hell you are talking about.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Hi, my name is TrollieMcTrollhead.
Submitted by Order270 on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 3:15pm.
I always attack.
I never defend.
I question everything.
I never admit defeat.
I continue fighting even when wrong.
Hey there Volt
Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 3:38pm.
You might want to think before you post.
Since you are four minute wonder here, let me give you a clue, for free.
Unsane did a tour in the sandbox. I know, he sent me a picture (of a Gator logo). So quit flappin' your lips about that, okay?
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Surely, you jest.
Submitted by UpNorth on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 9:20pm.
And yes, I will call you Shirley. "It is their(Service members, not just Marines) lives that are being risked to help bring you the oil at a price you can afford so you don't have to consider any alternatives". Um, kindly explain how much of the world's known oil reserves are located in Afghanistan. I'm betting that the number doesn't even approach 1%. Care to try something different?
Why is the braggart troll bringing in veterans into his bragging
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:24am.
voltdriver: Make sure you give a marine an extra pat on the...
Why does he now feel the need to whore out the military just to make his point? And why is he trying to whore out the military in a post responding to an actual veteran. Up yours braggart troll.
Where does the majority of our oil come from braggart troll? Name the top 3 sources of our oil, braggart troll. Do it before you actually research. Oh forget it, you will lie like all trolls.
America is one of the world's largest oil producers, and close to 40 percent of U.S. oil needs are met at home. Most of the imports currently come from five countries: Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela and Nigeria.
In fact, we only import about 12% of our oil from the Middle East. And that is falling fast due to the ongoing REVOLUTION in fracking and horizontal drilling here in our country. Up yours you braggart troll for trying to whore out the military in your braggart advertisements for GM here.
Next
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:34pm.
Alright, so just so we are clear, we are moving on from the Fire issues with the Volt, because you can bring no other evidence to discredit my blog? I already know the answer, but this is routinely a tactic to argue against anything. If you can't defend your point, say "Yeah, but..." Just want to make clear you've been unable to provide any substance to counter my fire argument.
Moving on. The EV1 isnt in the same ball park as the Volt. GM WAS pretty much forced to build the EV1 in California, and the technology just wasnt there yet for them to do it affordably. Since the 90s, microcomputers and battery technology has come a long way with the advent of so many portable devices. Bob Lutz, a Republican, convinved GM in 2007 that the Volt was a strategic direction the company needed to go on. It required no government mandate. Much of the research and development was done BEFORE the government bailout. Which means the stock and bond holders were really the ones who funded the Volt.
The cost of ANY new car ALWAYS has substancial R&D to work off. The Volt has more, but thats why it costs more. And there are derivitive technologies that they are alway using in other cars. So the work done on the Volt will benefit a lot of cars, not just the Volt. The Toyota Prius was reportedly sold at a 10k loss PER CAR for the first few years it was sold. Toyota took a long vision with the car, and as a result, it is the NUMBER THREE most sold car. People just like you were calling it a failure, when its sales numbers were even worse than the Volt when it was released.
And I dont know why I should feel ripped off. You get at least 32 billion a year spend in just military protection for middle eastern oil (per a GAO report). We spent over 366 billion between 1980 and 1990 alone in military spending for protection for just mddle eastern crude. Extrapoplate that to do, add in inflation, and that amounts to over TWO TRILLION DOLLARS, completely ignoring the most recent wars had anything to do with oil supply or over 6000 for every man woman and child in this country. You get your subsidies. How do you feel ripping off all the electric owners with your gas guzzler?
And you want to talk about $83 a barrel of oil like its good? And also pretend that we've been in this cycle for the last few years, where oil almost always rebounds and goes to higher pricing.
Keep vomiting propaganda
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:45pm.
Oddly, only about 15% of our oil comes from the Middle East.
I'm keeping my truck. I can do far more things with it than your silly Volt. And I am getting an added bonus: it really pisses you off. You won't be happy until everyone in America is driving a Volt; by force, if necessary.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You don't understand how a
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:50pm.
You don't understand how a global market works. Even the oil produced in the United States isnt ours until we buy it. OPEC or any other major producer could start reducing production and create a restrained market. That means no matter if the oil is produced in the US, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Venezeula, the oil can and will be shipped to the highest bidder.
➚ Now you're making sense
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:57pm.
But you won't buy that next Volt unless there's yet another handout attached to it.
Logistics
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:21pm.
You don't understand logistics. Canada cannot readily ship its oil anywhere else in the world, not even to EVIL China. The pipeline to their West Coast (and from there to China) exists on paper only and people in British Columbia are throwing a fit about it. The mayor of Vancouver has come out against it. And Canada can't possibly use all of that oil: the second biggest country in the world is also the ninth most sparsely populated country, a horizontal "Chile" who has 80% of its population within 200 miles or so of the border with the United States.
Venezuela cannot have its oil refined anywhere in the world outside the Carribbean and the southern United States.
We don't like getting our oil from the Middle East because it takes a hell of a lot of transport (and resulting costs) to get it from there to here. There IS a reason why most of out sources of oil outside Canada are hemispheric (Mexico, Venezuela, Ecuador, etc).
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I absolutely do. The
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:37pm.
I absolutely do. The problems you mention, however, are overcome with a little time and money. Trust me. If Canada wanted to start trucking its oil to tankers and selling the oil to China, they could.
➚ Sure they could
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:10pm.
But the cost would be prohibitive, now wouldn't it?
Suppose you can sell that old victrola to somebody in your home town for $1,000, or you could sell it online for the same $1,000? You're ignoring the logistical differences between the transactions.
Not very bright
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:23pm.
Some economist you are. If it was as simple as trucking - or rail - then why are they wanting to bother with a pipeline?
America's Scapegoat of China, assuming it is buying Canadian oil at present, is already paying a premium. The Pacific Ocean isn't a strait. You cannot hop, skip, and jump from northern BC (where they want to ship the oil from) to Shanghai or Hong Kong. So why would you ADD to that premium by resorting to trucking and rail?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
braggart trolls can't even keep their story straight.
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:35am.
First the braggart troll says our military is at risk to bring us foreign oil.
braggart troll voltdriver: ...you give a marine... It is their lives that are being risked to help bring you the oil at a price you can afford.
Then the troll claims that even without our military, we are still at risk from foreign oil.
braggart troll voltdriver: Even the oil produced in the United States isnt ours until we buy it. OPEC or any other major producer could start reducing production and create a restrained market.
Is the seat in your Volt comfortable with all the pretzal bending you do to sell it?
scorecard
Submitted by Free Stinker on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:52pm.
Unsane: 23
DoltDriver: 0
/// Sarah Palin Fan since July 11, 2007 /// خال
➚ reVolt Driver
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 12:47pm.
An upward jump from $1.89 to $3.45, according to the laws of physics, is not a "rebound"
I don't think that word means what you think it does.
Izz notta troll mizzer. Honext. Iz Arrrpublicarn. Rilliz. Honext
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:42am.
Now Lying braggart troll voltdriver: We spent over 366 billion between 1980 and 1990 alone in military spending for protection for just mddle eastern crude.
That is a lie troll. Back it up. There are myriad reasons we deploy our military outside the United States. Prove that we spend money SOLELY for protection of crude oil. Back it up troll or admit you are a partisan hack lying troll.
The voice of voltpropagandist
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 7:53am.
"WAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never said our military is only used to protect the oil infrastructure! You did! I love the military! How else can I force every single American to buy a Volt????"
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Already did
Submitted by voltdriver on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 10:13am.
http://ntl.bts.gov/data/military.pdf
And I'm still gone. C-Ya!
Nope
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 10:20am.
Sorry dude. If you were gone you wouldn't have posted that.
You can't stay away; either you are starved for attention or your gig as a Government Motors salesman isn't payin the commissions they originally promised.
(I guess your whining about how "I never said anything about the military only protecting oil infrastructure" is a lie, huh?)
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You guys keep sucking me in to your nonsense
Submitted by voltdriver on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 10:42am.
I think you need a lesson in logic.
I said the military is used to protect middle eastern oil.
That does NOT mean the military is ONLY used to protect middle eastern oil.
But, let's ignore the government report, and argue about semantics.
VD
Submitted by cocodrie on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 10:51am.
You are trying to deceive people with bogus statistics, misleading conclusions and liberal propaganda. The Volt is a typical expensive government failure.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
yes, the government study,
Submitted by voltdriver on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:02am.
yes, the government study, which examined estimates from many academic studies, including the CATO institute which actually stated we spent a LOT more than 32 billion a year to protect oil, is all smoke an mirrors. Of course, you can say that, likely not even having bothered to read the report (I doubt you'd understand it anyway), and you'd just assume stick your head in the hole and call it lies.
I'm done with you idiots. An discussion is only a discussion if you counter my points with logical and reasonable retorts. Since you are either unable or unwilling to do this, I have nothing more to say (I mean it this time). You had your opportunity to actually disprove me, and you have all utterly failed to do so. Neither proving the Volt is a fire hazard, not that you don't receive tremendous subsidies to be able to drive your gas guzzler in the form of protected oil infrastruture with military assistance.
Go ahead and have your party that you've won something. There is just so much time I can spend dumbing myself down listening to all of you.
An discussion = A discussion
Submitted by voltdriver on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:03am.
An discussion = A discussion
That is the first original thing you've done
Submitted by Free Stinker on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:27am.
We've never seen anyone go Spelling Nazi on themselves.
Wow.
/// Sarah Palin Fan since July 11, 2007 /// خال
yawn
Submitted by Free Stinker on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:05am.
Are you sure this is worth $14/hr ?
Damn "activists" . . .
/// Sarah Palin Fan since July 11, 2007 /// خال
It seems you have unlimited time to spend dumbing yourself down.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:12am.
In fact, it seems like you actually enjoy it.
What happened to "Good day, Good Night, and Good Luck!"? To me, that sounded like a farewell. And yet here you are back at it again.
BTW, I am working on an anti-gravity device - would you like to contribute to the development costs like I did for your car? $250K would cover your share.
Angry voltpropagandist
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 5:30pm.
We are getting to you: you are becoming angrier with each post, even to the point of name-calling.
If you like the Volt, fine. Buy one. I am keeping my truck. And I will buy another truck when the time comes. If you don't like the truck, DON'T F****** BUY ONE. And shut up and leave me the hell alone.
Get that message through that incredibly thick skull of yours. If you can't, take your smug, arrogant ass off the thread and enjoy the sexual arousal your Volt doubtless gives you.
By the way: didn't you promise that you were leaving this site because you are sick of us idiots that are too stupid to understand that YOU know best and that YOU are one of our betters?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Good morning Cocodrie.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:05am.
Apparently you have yet to experience the exhilarating roar of silence as you redline a Volt.
Good morning SoL
Submitted by cocodrie on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:22am.
You're right about that. However I have experienced the thrill of riding in and driving noisy cars that can make the 1/4 mile in less than 45 seconds.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
Logic says electric cars are not "green".
Submitted by Order270 on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:17am.
Logic says nuclear plants are not "green". Logic says that of the total greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, less than 1% are man made and cannot be causing global warming.
LIE LIE LIE bibes1949/voltdriver sock puppet LIES
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:37am.
You specifically said "We spent over 366 billion between 1980 and 1990 alone in military spending for protection for just mddle eastern crude."
Now you claim "That does NOT mean the military is ONLY used to protect middle eastern oil."
Back it up LYING sock puppet troll,.
You link is from one woman and a university, NOT ANYONE IN THE DOD OR GOVERNMENT. She even admits it. "These factors are entirely based on professional judgement."
In fact she quotes from the Congressional Research Service that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS her. "For example, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) states that other than oil supply, U.S. interests in the region also include ensuring the security of Israel, reducing the conflict between Arab nations and Israel, and protecting U.S. citizens in the Therefore, one cannot attribute all expenditures in the Middle East to defending oil
supplies. After removing the expenditures that “would be funded” even if the Southwest Asia
mission were eliminated, the CRS arrives at an estimate of less than $71 billion from 1980 to 1990 -about $6.4 billion per year."
Frell you lying sock puppet troll.
Three lessons for voltpropagandist
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 5:24pm.
Give me 5 MILLION government reports on how the Volt is THE GREATEST CAR EVER. Fine. Much to your extreme, overwhelming rage, I am going to keep my truck. The only way you are going to get me to buy a Volt is through the application of force, which doubtless you want to do (before you whine and scream about how you didn't say that: sure, you didn't say that, but considering how much you love and worship the Volt, I don't know what else to conclude.)
So do me a favor: keep plenty of beer on hand, because when you need help moving, or you need to make a purchase of a large, outsize item and want to avoid paying a delivery fee, you are going to need someone like me who owns a truck.
You have whined repeatedly that the military is used to protect Middle Eastern oil. That is the ONLY thing you have said it is used for, and you simply will not shut up about that. Again, what am I to conclude?
And you have gone on and on elsewhere about how oil is "subsidized" in this country, which surprises me because last I checked I pay taxes in each and every gallon I put in my truck (and I love my truck too much to go out and buy your obsessive devotion). No one is paying to REDUCE the cost of oil - indeed, the government only wishes to punish and steal from oil companies because they are oil companies, a stance a conservative Republican like you no doubt wholeheartedly approve of.
By the way, what is a conservative Republican doing demanding we forfeit our ability to choose what we want to drive? What is a conservative Republican doing whoring himself out for a vehicle he swears up and down is the single greatest invention of all time (no, he doesn't say this but he can't shut up about how great the Volt is), yet cannot sell without a government subsidy?
Before you start whining about how I need a lesson in logic, you need three lessons:
1) being intellectually honest,
2) effective communication, if in fact you are being intellectually honest,
3) humility.
And consider keeping promises. I though you said you were no longer going to post here. Feeding an attention addiction?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Ok, buh bye
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:50pm.
I am tired of refreshing this awful website and dealing with circular arguments where you are unable to properly refute much of anything. You guys enjoy your gas vehicles. I truly hope you are able to run them for your entire life, and hope I am completely off my rocker about energy. I would love to be worried about something that never comes true, then actually see it come through and the country suffer. I generally position myself with a hedge. If I feel the danger is great enough to be potentially catastrophic, then I am all for government creating hedges against these situations so we are somewhat prepared. I am not talking about shutting down the coal energy, like environmentalists would want, but taking prudent steps towards preventing disaster.
Take care, For the military on this site, I have the upmost respect for everything you do for this country. My beliefs are aimed at not disgracing your work, but protecting you from unnecessary harm, as well as this country.
Good day, Good Night, and Good Luck!
voltpropagandist surrenders!
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:28pm.
Protecting the military from unnecessary harm? I see that as veiled contempt. Plato tells us that only the dead have seen the end of war. History tells us that the human race is replete with assholes, and occasionally they grab power and the problems begin.
I see this whole post as surrender. Pure and simple. Go drive your silly Volt; quit insisting I follow YOUR vehicle choices. And by the way, as soon as the government quits subsidizing it, bye bye Volt.
Get out of the 1970s and join us in the modern world. Go learn how the world of oil actually works instead of how you think it should work. Learn about logistics. Learn to be intellectually honest. Quit blaming others for your own failings. Try and be a little humble. Among many other things.
And understand that not everyone is going to roll over and do what you tell them.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Buh Bye
Submitted by CobraMan on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 1:16am.
buh Bye, and, rest assured, I, at least, appreciated your attempt to educate us poor ignorant piss ants. Sorry to have soiled your delicate sensibilities with our inane babble, our circular logic, our obvious hostility to someone who is clear better than all of us out together, you pompous elitist, self serving pain in the ass!
As the great man once said; So long and thanks for all the fish!
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
utmost, not upmost.
Submitted by voltdriver on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 1:51pm.
utmost, not upmost.
vd, Tell us; what is the number one export, shipped from the USA
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 2:50pm.
Why because EPA kooks say it's got tooo much sulfur.
You Didn't Build That.
Everyone enjoying the bibes1949/voltdriver troll?
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 12:54am.
The both share the same brain. That is, it is one person with two accounts.
It's funny you say that...
Submitted by Order270 on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 11:31am.
...because they all sound amazingly similar. And they always end the same, too--with a cowardly disappearance.
Yes correct, because the odds of two actual different volt users
Submitted by upcountrywater on Thu, 06/14/2012 - 1:12pm.
posting here on this NB site is about 16.7 trillion to one..
Sales pick up on the volt, GM is buying them, well not just yet, a little later in election cycle.
The Volt saga raises the important question, if GM and the Obama Administration can lie so easily to the American public about the Chevy Volt, what else have they, or will they lie to us about?
You Didn't Build That.