All Three Networks Hype 'Ugly' Pepper Spray 'Outrage,' Played Down Occupy Crimes
The three network morning shows, which have been mostly ignoring crimes at the Occupy Wall Street protests, hyped the "ugly" and "disturbing" "outrage" of students at the University of California, Davis campus being sprayed with pepper. Good Morning America's George Stephanopoulos interviewed the school's chancellor and repeatedly berated her about resigning.
On NBC's Today, Ann Curry warned, "And also this morning, some disturbing video. Take a look at this, two police officers have been placed on administrative leave for using pepper spray on seated protesters at an Occupy demonstration on the campus of a California university." The Today show, as well as GMA made sure to push the protest as "peaceful," but only GMA pointed out that the students had encircled the police.
Today reporter Kristen Dahlgren added, "...As the video spread, so did the outrage."
On CBS's Early Show, guest news anchor Terrell Brown described it as an "ugly incident."
On Good Morning America, reporter Cecilia Vega featured two clips of students complaining about the spraying and just one representative of a police officer defending the university.
Pepper spray victim Sophia Kamran charged, "I think the way they responded shows for them it's about power not about, not about the actual moral implication of their actions."
GMA's Stephanopoulos repeatedly pushed the school's president to resign: "You have resisted calls so far to resign. Are you going to stay?...Nearly 50,000 people have signed a petition calling for you to go. Haven't you lost the confidence of the faculty and the students?"
Stephanopoulos openly advocated for the UC Davis protesters, lobbying, "I'm sorry, but we're looking at the video again right now. They're sitting there peacefully. It doesn't appear to be a violent situation."
In contrast, a November 7, 2011 MRC study found that networks ignored radical and troubling aspects os the OWS rallies.
A transcript of Stephanopoulos' interview, which aired at 7:09am EST on November 21, follows:
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GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: The leader in the hot seat this morning, the chancellor of UC Davis, Linda Katehi. Thank you for joining us this morning, Chancellor. You have resisted calls so far to resign. Are you going to stay?
LINDA KATEHI (Chancellor, UC Davis): Yes. In fact, our university in such a critical position and I really want to work with the members of our community, with the students, the staff and faculty to take our institution out of this crisis and move forward.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But, the faculty board- association board has called for your resignation. Nearly 50,000 people have signed a petition calling for you to go. Haven't you lost the confidence of the faculty and the students?
KATEHI: The faculty- We have also the faculty center- the greater faculty body has- I'm working of course to interact with them. I really feel confident that at this point the university needs me as there are so many critical issues to be addressed and we really need to start the healing process and move forward. There are so many things we need to learn about the horrible incidents and- we need to really spend time trying to understand what happened and move on.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, one of the- excuse me, one of the arguments that the faculty association board was made has made is that given that violence was used at protesters at the UC Berkley campus last week, you should have foreseen an action like this.
KATEHI: Well, our campus have seen [sic] an unrest for the last two and a half weeks and that has been building up. I don't want to say, of course, that there were- it was a difficult decision for the campus to really try to make sure that the students are safe. Whenever incidents like this happen, the biggest, the most critical issue for us is the safety of the students who are using the campus facilities, who really want to learn in this environment. And the situation that was building up was becoming a concern for us, the members of the community. So, um, the decision was not to necessarily disperse the demonstration but to dismantle the equipment for the equipment for the encampment. And there was an effort for many, many days to work with the students-
STEPHANOPOULOS: But, Chancellor, you say you were concerned- Excuse me. I'm sorry, but we're looking at the video again right now. They're sitting there peacefully. It doesn't appear to be a violent situation.
KATEHI: Exactly. This video is horrible if- What it shows is really very appalling for all of us and really shows a face for the university that we don't have. So, it's very critical for us right now to really understand what's happened and try to make the appropriate corrections so this really does not happen again.
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Comments
When you need the Police-
Submitted by JIMMY1660 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:16pm.
call Ghost Busters-you can't have it both ways.
Cops tell you to leave/move on-oh okay you can stay- the cops leave.
Let the OWS do what ever-let them tear the place apart.
Coffee and donuts and stay in the precinct -who cares what they do.
Still doesn't fly.
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:21pm.
Unless there's another cop standing off-camera with service revolver trained on the students sitting submissively, that bit about the cops being encircled doesn't catch any air.
I don't see a cop in fear for his/her life, but a well-armored cop nonchelantly pacing in front of the students, spraying at will.
We would do well to let this investigation run its course without racking our brains as to why this cop apparently spent an entire can of aerosolized jalapeno juice.
They deliberately encircled the police to obstruct them
Submitted by OxyCon on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:45pm.
One of the twits gave a self incriminating interview. I saved it in case it goes down the memory hole:
http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html
→ Actually
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:21pm.
If you'll watch the video, the officer strafes the front of the group, then steps over a sitting protester to spray the back of the group.
I'm still waiting for some evidence the police were actually threatened.
OC Spray Use in gaining compliance
Submitted by ThePickle on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:55pm.
As a veteran Correctional Officer I have deployed more than my share of OC (oleo resin capsicum) spray over the years and can state without reservation that "pepper spray" is routinely used to gain compliance even in non violent situations.
As it is NOT generally considered a "chemical" weapon, the use of OC spray falls extremely low on just about any agencies use of force continuum. In fact in my department OC spray falls right after "verbal warning" in our UoF policies.
Sooo.......unless this particular agency specifically forbids the use of OC spray to disperse non-violently resistant crowds, then the MSM can beat this pony all they want and the officers in question will face the usual board of inquiry that is connived to examine use of force incidents and be exonerated.
It really has nothing to do with an officer being---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:22pm.
in fear of his life - it has to do with dealing with a failure to follow a lawful order to disperse.
Despite appearances, the LEAST harmful method - for ALL concerned - of seeking compliance, is the application of OC (oleo resin capsicum) on lawbreakers.
Law enforcement had their orders, and without that application of pepper spray, the resultant force necessary to remove resisting protestors would undoubtedly have resulted in far worse than temporarily burning eyes and nasal passages.
The protestors were out of line; they were dealt with in the prescribed way; and the cops are placed on leave and railed against.
Absolutely ridiculous.
I have come to expect nothing less from this asinine society we live in today.
MD
Sweeeet!
Submitted by Jer on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:37pm.
I wish a computer wizard would invent some sort of virtual OC I could 'spray' when you pack of jackals gang up on me. I don't want to hurt anybody.
Jer
A pack of jackals, Jer---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:55pm.
hunts down prey.
Only a lib would sashay his arse in front of predators and then complain about being bitten. Or worse.
Nome sayin' - ? :o)
MD
They have Jer
Submitted by Denny Crane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 9:18am.
Look at the top right corner of your computer screen. There are 3 symbols there. The little line is what you hit to make the "jackals" shrink down so as to not be as scary. The x really shows em! Click that one everytime you log on and they will all run away screaming!
We Are The 53%
Cry-Babies Dont' Win Arguments with Police Officesr
Submitted by libBuster on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:27pm.
Investigation of what???????? You don't win an argument with a police officer. If you are told to move on, you move on. If you refuse be prepared for the consequences. It is called in the vernacular a "lawful order".
We have raised a generation of cry-babies. Getting pepper sprayed should be a point of pride for these protestors. How can such effete wimps be taken seriously?
Poor sheep
Submitted by kata on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:30pm.
They're told they are doing this for a good cause, they are told they will likely be roughed up, possibly pepper sprayed and arrested and they sit down and wait for it. Don't believe me? Watch any pre-arrest stream of any Occupy movement. I would specifically point to the Boston crackdown or the Seattle one. People discuss what's going to happen and separate accordingly. They use pressure to make people stay with bullying tactics such as "we all stay or none of use stay" - essentially placing the welfare of the collective on the dissenters.
And these stupid people supposedly in positions of authority sit and wring their hands while the crowds grow and the moods escalate giving no clear message - leaving the police to essentially fend for themselves. I have no idea how they can do their jobs with no support from their own bosses. Perhaps a procedure would be good to nail down here so as to prevent this from happening again, as this woman says - but letting your law enforcement arm just twist in the wind is a bad, bad plan.
The MSM's advocacy just makes it easier for these organizers to find and convince more sheep.
Fer crissakes ...it wasn't some sort of genocide.
Submitted by NeoKong on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:31pm.
The very purpose of police carrying pepper spray is so they do not have to hurt people.
You do not comply with a lawful order then you get sprayed. They had fair warning and chose to ignore it.
Stepphie comes across like a fool when he tries to portray it as some over the top response. No one was hurt.
Once again the leftie media is on the wrong side of history here. The OWS movement has lost all popular support.
Want to know why they were "sitting" on that sidewalk?
Submitted by OxyCon on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 6:40pm.
According to this interview with one of the people who got pepper sprayed, they sat there to deliberately obstruct the police and deny them the ability to carry out their orders:
http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html
sad
Submitted by kata on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:13pm.
looks like this played out nearly exactly as the other incidents.
I did not get pepper sprayed today.
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 7:12pm.
Of course I did not try to obstruct a police officer
(a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
Come to think of it, I have never been pepper sprayed. I have issues with my government, I use the power of the ballot box.
You're fine with
Submitted by Clevenative on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:10pm.
Police officers pepper spraying a group of American citizens passivly sitting motionless in protest? Oh my God, it's worst than I thought.
BTW - There's plenty of video to make any attempt to label the protestors as "threatening" a joke. Yep - it looks like them "dirty hippies" had the police surrounded. LOL
Just more right-wing fascism at work - and plenty more to come as this movement continues to gain momentum, no doubt. Once you start showing an over-reaction to the mounting protests on college campuses, you're only asking for trouble. But as I've stated, it's pretty much a given that that is "the plan".
♫ Trollin', trollin', trollin' on da rivah ♫
Submitted by SickofLibs on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:16pm.
.
I doubt you could define "fascist" if the very existence of your
Submitted by Dave. on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:25pm.
...government-educated ass depended on it.
Fascism is a left-wing ideology, you idiot.
Vote for the American in November
Thank you Dave*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:39pm.
I was going to reply to him but he requires an education that starts back to 3rd grad. An effort in futility anyway.
c2, It always cracks me up when commies like clevie...
Submitted by Dave. on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:49pm.
...here gripe about fascists, as but for one area, the two ideologies are practically identical.
That goes the same for fascists who feign disgust with commies, too.
And the fascists systems degenerate into communism ultimately anyway, as they begin to fall short of the government's production quotas, which causes the government to step in and totally take over.
Look where Germany was headed near the end of WWII. The government was arresting industrialists and taking over their operations all over the place.
Germany was sprinting toward communism so fast it was ridiculous.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
I wonder if Clevie saw a neurologist?
Submitted by drsamherman on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:15pm.
Those airquotes must have made his hands very tired. Must be some kind of strange tic or tremor yet to be described.
Marxist or Fascist. You cannot be both
Submitted by Clevenative on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:43pm.
(To paraphrase your tagline.)
Read the friggin encyclopedia entry for Fascism
...And tell me how many paragraphs you have to get through before it doesn't sound like your ideology. Fascism is definitely not "leftist" LOL
Are you freaking kidding me???
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:47pm.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are calling Wikipedia an encyclopedia? You are CITING Wikipedia with a straight face???
My Holy Freaking Shahinshah, do at least TRY to evaluate your sources!!!
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You are a dolt, Skippy.
Submitted by Trix Rabbit on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:53pm.
You posted a wikipedia article and you didn't even bother to read the entire thing. You are far too subnormal to comment on what fascism is.
If you ever bothered to give Orwell (1984, Animal Farm, Homage to Catalonia) any more than a perfunctory reading, you might, I repeat might, be able to weigh in on this post.
For the MSM: In your pomp and all your glory, you're a poorer man than me. As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
Ian Anderson "Wind up"
Trix, "subnormal?"
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:04am.
LOL - That's perfect. :-)
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
Like hell you can't, clevie
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:31am.
I'll type really slow for you, as I realize your early reading experiences were probably centered around Dick, Jane, and a dog named Spot - thus I will make it really simple for you:
Facism is government control of privately owned means of production.
Communism is government control of government-owned means of production.
That is the only significant difference between the two idealogies, as in all other respects, they are pretty much carbon copies of each other - which means only slightly different levels of tyranny.
Until under fascism the private owners start falling short, that is, then the government steps in and starts snatching things up in earnest.
Have you ever even bothered to read any of the NAZI handbooks?
You would be amazed at how many traits Nazism and communism actually share.
Like 99.5% of them, actually.
But unlike you, I was taught the truth about both.
You are utterly clueless about either.
You see, the histroy revisionists (most of which were lefties) were pretty quick to get ol' Adolf Schicklgruber tagged as a "rightie," and you have bought into every word of it.
That makes you a useful idiot for the tyrannical commie/fascist left.
Barely.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
c2, the third grade isn't far enough back for comrade clevie
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:18am.
LOL - He needs to be sent back to nursery school, and kept well away from teachers goonion members from then on.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
If you say so Dave
Submitted by Clevenative on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:02pm.
LOL
The American right - The ultimate denialists and re-writers of history.
I have a question for you Dave - Has any political movement in the history of the world that has had negative consequenses been part of "the right"?
Like the history you wrote here?
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:06pm.
Answer up for your lies troll. Or don't, whatever. Funny you suddenly clammed up about your personal history. Huh?
Lies?
Submitted by Clevenative on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:36pm.
What "lies" are you talking about? Unless it has something to do with a public media article or data that I posted, there isn't much I can do to prove it is there? So there's no sense in my trying to defend anything else, is there?
Clammed up? Personal History? What is this Facebook?
What kind of a comment is that? I don't hear you or anyone else handing out your life story - and personally, I couldn't care less to hear the sugar coated drivel anyhow, "Vet". I didn't come here to talk about my personal life - I came here to debate the dangers of your political ideology and how it will lead to the demise of a once great nation. The personal anecdotes I select to inject or divulge are the truth whether you want to believe them or not and they will continue to be at my discretion.
I suppose that, where yellow journalism is the rule of thumb, you’re eager to find any dirt you can use for your Tabloid smear rag? Aghh yes, it’s the Teapublican way. You related to Andy Gayboy or what?
Like I said, you are free to take anything I say and make me into whatever you want to make me into - I should expect anything less? Do you think I would or should be bothered by it? I'm just a name on a screen - so it's kinda hard to prove or disprove anything that either you or I say about me, isn't it? But whatever gives you a chubby is your business I guess.
"Your political ideology and
Submitted by ant on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:55pm.
"Your political ideology and how it will lead to the demise of a once great nation" Did you type that with a straight face ? Record debt, record deficits, A credit rating downgrade for the first time in history, huge unemployment (among citizens, anyway), and more government pencil pushers and regulations then ever before, and what Party brought us all this? ......c'mon....you can do it......... DEMOCRATS. Of course, you're such a fool, you probably think all these things are good things.
You talk about "haters" on other sites but say 'gayboy"?
Submitted by drsamherman on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:12pm.
If you are so open minded and tolerant, Cleve, why would you use that terminology? If you want to talk about danger, it is in the hypocrisy of saying you are against "haters" and then using the very terminology you say is offensive.
Ahhh, Doc............Dr.
Submitted by killa37 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:16pm.
Ahhh, Doc............Dr. Killa here - having a professional conversation with my colleague. It's been quite evident and clearly apparant that Mr. Clevie-Poo has been seething with rage and hate from the day he checked in. But, as you have noted, he is also a delusional paranoid with identity-crisis issues - so he transfers all of his own built up anger and hate onto his list of excuses and alibis.................thereby, in his addled mind, justifying his thought process by blaming anyone and everyone else.
Plus, as is also fairly apparant - he exhibits latent homosexual characteristics and tendancies , which, I can only surmise, is a coverup for his blatent homosexual traits. And, although he disdains Christianity, he is probably looking forward to the part of Christmas where he can 'don we now our gay apparell'.....................
Ah....
Submitted by drsamherman on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:20pm.
philosophically that's "eat, drink and be mary"
This is too much
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:20pm.
The last thing we need to hear is a Statist/Socialist whine about re-writing history and being in denial. Seriously.
That whine, Cleveingrate, is about as valuable as an whore lecturing me on the virtue of chastity.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Ahhhhh c'mon,
Submitted by killa37 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:27pm.
Ahhhhh c'mon, Unsane...................don't go putting whores and Clevie-Poo in the same category!!! Whores actually serve a valuable function.................whereas the only function that 'meat' serves is - like his boyz at the OWS - defecation.
True conservatives believe in individual freedom and liberty
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:09am.
...which is why they totally shun totalitarian forms of government.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
Don't screw with me, comrade troll
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:29am.
I didn't attend government shool, and I bet I have read more history by accident in my 47 years on this rock than you would read on purpose in three lifetimes.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
Nothing like omitting the fact that those---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:25pm.
passive, motionless munchkins were breaking the law, eh?
Stupid pos.
MD
Wait'll you see the bowel
Submitted by killa37 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:26pm.
Wait'll you see the bowel movement gaining momentum - in your front yard - after they figure out that you're part of the 1%!!!
And, hey Clevie-Poo..............you gonna answer my civil questions about the unemployment contribution numbers????
No killa
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:32pm.
Clevie doesn't answer any comments that require fact not opinion. He's a post and run kind of guy.
Why is he still here again?
I asked Rad, and I have yet to get an answer.
Submitted by UpNorth on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:36pm.
Can't figure it out, unless someone thinks that plagiarists have been under-represented on NB lately.
Obama played, people got sprayed.
Submitted by ant on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:39pm.
This is all his fault, they're his police, his unions. I'll be expecting you libtards to all rail against this fascist President soon.
Still waiting LIAR.
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:51pm.
Tell us about how you lost your house when you were disabled in 1985 yet you were on unemployment for less than 3 months.
Tell us about your disability that stopped you from being able to SIT in front of a computer.
Tell us about your union that included white collar programmers, the first union on the planet that still cannot be located anywhere.
Tell us about your fake white collar computer programmers union that wiped out their pension, again a first for a union to lose a pension.
Little fruit Clementine: I don’t hate anyone personally – I just hate lies and the liars that parrot them.
Cleveingrate
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:00pm.
You need to be a lot nicer to police officers - after all, you want everyone but them disarmed. Therefore, the only people you will have to rely on in case of crime are the cops.
I realize this will be too much to ask, but quit biting the hand that feeds you, ingrate.
How many major college campus demonstrations took place after Kent State in May of 1970? I'm trying to think of some examples...
Besides, your little friends at "Occupy" folded rather quickly in the college town I live at. If that is an example of your precious Statist/Socialist movement "gaining momentum", my little successor to Baghdad Bob, I'd hate to see evidence of it going into reverse.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Still waiting LIAR.
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:11pm.
But then again, we are a patient lot here on ...an inhospitable, BUT TYPICAL, gathering place of the of the "best of" the haters.
I'm convinced
Submitted by Dave the mailman on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:40pm.
That any libtard trolling here has absolutely NO grasp of truth or logic.
Did you see the video where they were chanting...
Submitted by OxyCon on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 8:41pm.
..."Thugs on campus!" and "From Davis to Greece, f**k the police!"?
George was very carefull ...
Submitted by Fredy on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:00pm.
George never asked if the pepper spray is a part of the normal approved routine for dispersing an unlawfull assembly on campus.
The reason George never did ask was simple, he already knew it is approved procedure. If it was NOT approved procedure, then George would have started with that charge.
Exactly right, Fredy.
Submitted by UpNorth on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:10pm.
The Use of Force Continuum that most departments subscribe to, goes from officer presence to verbal commands to empty hand control to less than lethal methods. As verbal commands and hand control didn't work, the use of OC(less than lethal force) is perfectly acceptable.
galactic idiot that is Clementine
Submitted by MrShy on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:07pm.
"Once you start showing an over-reaction to the mounting protests on college campuses, you're only asking for trouble."
Oh, so the threatening troublemakers who have already stirred up insane amounts of law-breaking trouble in cities, towns and universities across our nation are threatening..... more trouble? You mean, if our law enforcement starts to crack down and.... enforce the law.... you're threatening them with... more trouble?
Clementine, if you and your fascist, violent, brainwashed ilk take this up yet another notch, I worry we'll start seeing a lot of seriously injured and dead liberals. Notice I wrote "I worry". Yeah, I don't want to see anyone injured or killed.
And that wasteful blood will be on all of your hands. You liberal "progressive" twits really are misinformed sheep.
- shy on vinyl
Join Mr. Shy and The 1* Percent
TX
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:10pm.
Q: Why won't Clevenative spout this nonsense and back his deeds with answers here in TX?
A: Because he and his Statist/Soclaist friends know that the cops are the least of their worries.
The cops will take statements. Under TX law, after all, there is no duty to retreat...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Unsane
Submitted by MrShy on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:21pm.
Yes, true, peaple have pointed out that these wussy fascists/socialists (agh, whatever you want to call them -- frighteningly stupid young'uns, for the most part, as so much of OWS is just a flock of indoctrinated newbie morons) are picking fights mostly in northern, urban, progressive-y "gun control" areas.
Oh, FYI, there's a new one of me with the "Mrs." at her official site. Sadly, it's all been downhill since that sublime week in the summer of 2011. That 8,000 mile difference thing ain't cutting it. :p
- turntable shy
Join Mr. Shy and The 1* Percent
Idiots collide
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:07pm.
I have no sympathy for these children. Hey, I don't care for the cops, either (the Raleigh PD is the latest bunch of power trippers on my s*** list but even so I don't blame them as much as who they work for and their priorities), but it isn't going to take pepper spray to get me to move. But then, chances are, I'm not looking to pick a fight with them. Nor do I do things which attract their attention.
Let the investigation proceed, as we do need to check the cops and keep them on an extremely tight leash, for if they get an inch, they WILL take a light year - but as for those idiot children? Go to class and get a life. You got what you deserved.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Who were they hurting?
Submitted by borax on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:09pm.
I am a student at UC Davis, and I have been an NBer for several years now. My question for everyone is why the protesters needed to be removed in the first place. Who were they hurting by camping out on the quad? Should it have been "illegal", seeing as how this is publicly owned space? What is the best course of action for everyone to take here? How else can the students bring about change if they are not being listened to? Many of them were protesting about the inefficiencies of the university and of California in general. (And, oh are there ever inefficiencies.) When a government becomes an oppressive burden, is it not the duty of every man to attempt to change said government, if not overthrow it? Also, some of you seem to be downplaying the severity of pepper spray. See this article http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2011/11/20/about-pepper-spray/. Its pretty nasty stuff
how to bring about change?
Submitted by kata on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:12pm.
Educate yourself and vote accordingly.
Educate yourself
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:19am.
I think part of what the protesters are trying to do is educate the people around them, and hoping to change their voting practices.
Oh?
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:22am.
How did you gather that?
How
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 3:44am.
Talking with them and reading in their online communities.
borax
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:16pm.
As was demonstrated by other protests, these "camp outs" become breeding grounds for germs and crime. Why should the protestors be allowed to break laws in their protests? As has been proven the longer an illegal demonstration goes on the more difficult it is to break it up.
They can protest every day as long as they go home at night.
Hmmm...
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:29am.
I think the protesters would argue that a greater purpose was achieved in breaking the (in their mind, unjust) law. I happen to agree that if they were going to stay, they would have to be very careful about sanitation. They usually do an ok job of policing themselves and getting rid of any creeps. They don't want to get raped or robbed. However, I personally agree that sanitation and crime are legitimate concerns. I honestly haven't decided if those concerns should preclude them from being able to protest in the way they had planned, however. There may be ways of resolving those concerns that have outcomes more conducive to health and well-being than a bunch of people being pepper sprayed. Which is pretty nasty... http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2011/11/20/about-pepper-spray/
Borax, if you really believe what you just spouted,
Submitted by UpNorth on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:24pm.
go back to your high school and demand a refund, they did not educate you.
First, "Should it have been "illegal", seeing as how this is publicly owned space"? Yes, because it belongs to everyone if it's public property, not just Occuturds.
"How else can the students bring about change if they are not being listened to"? You didn't pay attention in Government Class did you? It's called voting, try it sometime. Secondly, you're students, you don't run the place.
"When a government becomes an oppressive burden, is it not the duty of every man to attempt to change said government, if not overthrow it"? Not getting a "free" education at someone else's expense is "oppression"? Really, you flunked Logic, didn't you? And, if you're seriously going with the "overthrow it" meme, when it comes to government, you'd really better hope you win and win completely, otherwise it's called treason.
"Its(OC) pretty nasty stuff". Not nearly as nasty as 9mm or .40 bullets, young one. Or even wooden or ASP batons.
Top of the list upnorth*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:26pm.
NB needs a "like" button
Thanks, c2.
Submitted by UpNorth on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:41pm.
.
Deutsch Polizei
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:31pm.
Those kids better be very happy this isn't Germany, even now. The German cops will probably be laughing watching that footage.
As I learned at a very young age: don't even jaywalk in front of them.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Is that a good thing?
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:34am.
Is that level of strictness necessarily a good thing though? Do you want to live in a society where you have to be scared of crossing a street for fear of the penalty? Do you want that for your kids? Can't we be a little more understanding and compassionate?
For the naive little borax
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:52am.
Little borax, unfortunately for you, the use of force rules everything. Those meanie cops you don't like using pepper spray also had GUNS. Want to know why they have guns?
Do you want to live in a society where you have to be scared of crossing a street for fear of the penalty? I don't know. We seem to be doing just fine living in a society that is scared of all sorts of infractions. Ever wonder why traffic slows to 15 under the speed limit when a cop is seen on the side of the road?
Seems to me like you don't want to live in society, period.
Understanding and compassion gets people absolutely positively nowhere. Run along and try reading your history, borax. You MIGHT learn some very unpleasant aspects of human nature along the way.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
The protestors told the police
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:02am.
"If you let them (the arrested) go - we will let you leave." (8:55 min mark if you can't handle the shouting) That's when the canisters came out (10:07). I don't know what they expected to happen.
Reality vs What we should work for
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:04am.
Thanks for the patronizing condescension. Please don't treat everybody like that. You'll cost our side voters.
A world where the use of force rules everything doesn't seem like a very free place, or a very Christian place, if that sort of thing matters to you. Maybe things are like that sometimes, but that doesn't mean we should strive towards that as an ideal. I don't want to live in a place where people stop trying to change society for the better. I do want to live in a society, one governed by both mercy and justice. A society governed by the use of force sounds more like anarchy.
I thought conservatives/libertarians didn't like nanny states with all sorts of laws that don't make sense. I don't want to fear being pepper sprayed for breaking minor rules that don't make sense.
Borax needs Clorox
Submitted by MrShy on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:21am.
To clean up the poo he just stepped in.
"I don't want to fear being pepper sprayed for breaking minor rules that don't make sense."
I'm trying to type, but I'm jerking up and down from laughter. Tell me you didn't just type that.
That asinine closing sentence (sorry, but it simply is) can be torpedoed from so many angles, I don't know which one to choose.
Okay, I'll start with the most obvious of the obvious: If you don't want to be pepper sprayed, why go and break any rule/law? Also, if not being pepper sprayed, then what DO you want to have happen to you when you've gone and broken that rule/law? AND, when you've gone and done it after being warned and given a chance to stop breaking that rule/law, but you further break it (or continue to)? Is there any reprimand that should come to you or whoever the rule/law breaker is? If so, what? Or, are you asking law enforcement to continiue to bend backward for you and warn you a few more times? When you refuse to get off the floor, ARMS LOCKED with other law/rule-breakers, what's the fair consequence, borax?
But really, I should have tackled this one first: Are we to operate on the Borax Scale of Crimes & Misdemeanors? If it's below a certain BSCM level infraction ("minor") are cops supposed to keep their sprays and clubs and guns back at the precinct? You know, when it's the "that don't make no sense" crime? Since, hey, Borax says that's a silly one that shouldn't be on the books?
- shy on vinyl
Join Mr. Shy and The 1* Percent
sigh
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:08am.
I expect proportional response. Minor rule breaking should be met with minor penalties. They don't hang you for speeding, and they don't jail you for life for shoplifting. The death penalty can be in force for things like murder and rape, in some places. Surely you understand that.
Why break any law? Well, some laws are dumb. I direct you to google "dumb laws" if you don't know what I mean. Are you going to tell me you have never jaywalked or sped? In our own judgement, the benefits of disobeying the law outweigh the costs. I think we need to have fewer dumb laws in our country. Less nanny state is good, right?
I think there are many reasons that dumb laws get put in place, and I think the majority of people would not want them in place. Some policies are put in place not by elected officials, but by lifelong bureaucrats. They don't make sense. When voting doesn't work, sometimes people participate in civil disobedience to change them. I really hope I don't need to lecture you in civil disobedience. Wikipedia it. Gandhi. MLK.
Your straw man argument seems to be that I think that I should set the laws. Obviously I don't think I am the sole arbiter of what is right and wrong. I think our system of government, while on a whole very good, sometimes leads to bad laws. There are ways of changing them. There are ways of getting them changed faster. I think this is one way of helping educate the populace about potentially bad laws, and helping society decide which ones are bad and which ones are good.
I disagree with your premise. I don't think that they should have removed the protesters at all. I think the damage done by pepper spraying the protesters outweighs the benefits of getting them out of there immediately. I don't confuse "legal" with "good." The founders certainly didn't.
You seem nice. But you also don't seem to listen.
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:33am.
Why are you talking about penalties? Do you really think these people were being penalized? Seriously. This is your idea of sitting down, engaging the brain pan, and then coming here to convince us of what the result of many many many many years of education has brought you.
No really. You are sitting there, thinking, responding, thinking, telling us to be nice, thinking, and the big result of all of that was this - they were being penalized. So is it really a deficiency on your part or did the education system fail you?
You big thought of the day - the Police here to penalize. Pepper spray is not a tool to get someone not in compliance with a police officer to induce them to indeed start complying. No, you are telling us it is a penalty.
You say this and you want us to take everything else you say seriously.
So tell us with a straight face. Are the police here to penalize citizens?
So much naivete so little time
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 7:57am.
I'm not here to campaign nor am I a candidate for office so I don't care about "costing" my "side voters". Besides, your next paragraph suggests to me you are not remotely on my side.
A world where the use of force rules everything doesn't seem like a very free place, or a very Christian place, if that sort of thing matters to you. Actually, that is in fact the world we live in. Methinks you think that everything around you is there simply for the asking. How does this nation exist? What, do you think other nations in the past and present just allow us to exist out of the kindness of their hearts? Why do we bother having a military? Why do you think the cops have guns? Are you really that naive?
Maybe things are like that sometimes, but that doesn't mean we should strive towards that as an ideal. I don't want to live in a place where people stop trying to change society for the better. I do want to live in a society, one governed by both mercy and justice. A society governed by the use of force sounds more like anarchy. Unfortunately for you there are bad people in this world. As such, you cannot just wish for a "society governed by both mercy and justice". You cannot and will not EVER get that without the deterrent effect that comes from the occasional application of VIOLENCE upon those in the world who are evil. You cannot and will not under any circumstances have your little dream world without being in a society that has rules that are ENFORCED through various means, up to and including the application of VIOLENCE. A society governed by the use of force is HARDLY anarchy. In fact it is the highest form of civilization there is. You are living in that world. I have yet to be pulled over by a cop who, when they tell me why they stopped me, says "I really wish you didn't (insert infraction here). Step out of the car so I can give you a big hug to convince you not to do that ever again."
I thought conservatives/libertarians didn't like nanny states with all sorts of laws that don't make sense. I don't want to fear being pepper sprayed for breaking minor rules that don't make sense. Conflating. See, when the cops tell you to move, you get out of their way. Stopping police officers from doing their job is a very serious offense. I'm sorry that preventing law enforcement officials from doing their duty is a "nanny state" to you and doesn't make sense to you. I have never got pepper sprayed by a cop, but then, I don't stop them from doing their jobs either (h/t to The Vet).
I suspect that you are lying when you say you are a conservative and that you are either an anarchist or a Green.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
sorry borax*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:06am.
Cajun is confused. I do not understand your thinking here. Where is your understanding and compassion for the police?
These people yell, KILL THE COPS, BURN THE BANKS. They are urged by their leaders to create havoc and destruction. There has been suicides, murders, rapes, drug dealing, molotov cocktails thrown. The police exists for the protection of citizens. Which citizens borax? The ones trying to get to work safely or the ones creating chaos and damage?
If you have ever been with cops in difficult situations, they must often make decisions instantly to control or prevent dangerous actions from occurring. Some of those dangerous actions are directed at the police.
Law abiding citizens, even those protesting, have no fear of the cops. Not one incident at all the Tea Party rallies required police intervention. The OWS are costing communities millions in tax payer money to protect these idiots from themselves, money spent on police and emergency personnel to protect law abiding citizens, protect themselves from these radicals, clean up the mess, the destruction, the disease. Yet the OWS are the same people complaining about $$$. Who do you think is going to pay for all of this chaos? YOU!!!
Let me point this out for you as well. Give this some thought. Do you know why there are no OWS protests in small towns only the big cities? It is because those citizens that agree with the OWS protests would never behave this way in small communities because everyone, including the cops, are family, friends , neighbors. There is compassion and understanding at work borax regardless of one's politics. That is what is missing with the OWS protests in the large cities where they are anonymous. It is all about themselves, no one else. That leaves them emotionally distanced from any responsibility for the damage, chaos and injury they have caused, to each other or to police.
Misinformed
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:14am.
You must not have watched the video. Let me help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJmmnMkuEM
This was not a spur of the moment decision to pepper spray. There was no threat to the police at all. None of the stuff you mentioned was happening at the UC Davis incident.
Davis is a comparatively small town. People do know each other. See this blog about it. http://myrmecos.net/2011/11/20/i-was-wrong-about-occupydavis/
Whoops. Second time you show us you are not serious.
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:55am.
Again. The result of your day of big thinking comes down to this. You now think it is about the threat to the police officers. How many years of education do you brag about here and the end result of all that taxpayer and personal money spent is you think the police acted because they felt threatened. You are seriously throwing this 2nd big thought of the day out - the police felt threatened and that is why they acted.
Oh, and how serious is your link to the video. Your link shows the pepper spray starting at ELEVEN SECONDS.
This is how serious you want us to know you are - coming here with a clip that shows the pepper spray commencing after 11 seconds. And then talking about spur of the moment. This is the example of your seriousness and attempts to convince us you have a correct point of view.
Here. Now I will get serious. In fact, the officers were obstructed for more than 5 minutes AT LEAST. This video shows the officers talking to the seated obstructionists at least THREE TIMES. They were fully warned they were obstructing officers. A lot of officers. So any immediate calls for police at that time, and I won't talk about scary crimes like rape or murder, but any calls for police going out at that time would have been delayed. Sorry, no policed today, they are being blocked by a bunch of people that borax says don't like bad laws.
Here is the HONEST video that shows the officers telling the OBSTRUCTORS to move 3 times and waiting patiently for SIX AND A HALF minutes before attempting to make them comply.
Sorry borax*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 8:24am.
Since you are a college student, I made the mistake of thinking you could extrapolate from my post.
The Founding Fathers set up a system of government designed to prevent massive change. Immediate and major changes to a society is never done without chaos. Look at world history as a big picture. Most societies are about 5000 years old. The US is only 235 yrs old. Yet we have a system that works better than any other throughout history and you and your fellow anarchists want immediate change. Instant gratification is an adolescent failing. But with all your fancy apps on your I-Pads, you think life and government is just as easy to accomplish your goals.
That thinking is what I applied in my post. Not just UC Davis protest but comparatively the error of all of the OWS protests. You cannot go from a free market capitalist system to communism/socialism in one fell swoop. Humans and government are not capable of that kind of instant transition without resulting breakdown and chaos of that society. That is why we have rules, laws, and a US Constitution. To totally ignore the laws of the land because of some grandiose lofty goals without understanding the consequences is rather thoughtless, lacks understanding and compassion, and terribly immature.
The lofty goals of the protestors are centered on issues that generally apply to their own desires and self interest. The majority of Americans can see the short sightedness of those goals. But to understand the changes you wish to bring about requires an ability to see the world and our society in a more grand view, not so limited to the quad.
The OWS protests may have some valid points that even the majority of Americans will agree are needed. But no adult, rational law abiding citizens believe "the end justifies the means". And don't make the mistake of thinking this "movement" is unique to this country. Some of us lived through the 60;s and 70's. We are still trying to recover from the changes caused by those protests that are basically the cause of our economic and societal difficulties today. Some of us know how to connect the dots.
Well stated, cajun.
Submitted by ant on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:16am.
.
Universities
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:19am.
There is plenty of room on the quad for everybody to use it how they want. It is huge
Voting isn't working for a large number of these people. Certainly not quickly enough. People weren't taking their concerns seriously. And thanks for the ad hominem.
They way our university is set up, it is run by the faculty, for the students. Because professors don't like dealing with the minutiae of day-to-day managing of the system, they choose some people to take care of the administration for them. Its these bureaucrats that are ruining things. And that is what the students AND FACULTY are protesting about. Many, many professors have gone to the protests and rallies and actively participate. And they DO run the place.
The students are the customers. And they are dissatisfied with the product. So they are complaining. Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?
If you think education is free, you are sadly mistaken. Students pay for their own degrees in most cases. Sometimes parents help. Either way, it costs tens of thousands of dollars to get a UC education, which historically has been worth a lot. Now, people are worried about the value of their degree. Cost is going up dramatically (from $5000 per year a few years ago to $12,000 now, heading towards $22,000 in a couple of years). And many feel that the worth of a degree is going down.
Just because there are nastier things than OC, it doesn't mean they should have used it. I don't see what relevance that last statement of yours has.
Argue your case as a Libertarian
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:33am.
How would they approach this problem?
Not sure which problem
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:42am.
Could you narrow your question down? I'm not sure exactly to what you are referring to. I do like where you're going with this though...
Interesting thought exercise.
you were discussing the high price of education...
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:50pm.
Ok, lemme explain. I am trying to draw out some more in-depth conservative thoughts from you. Not the generic answer you gave me in another post.
I want to see if you can defend your political beliefs. My daughter considers herself libertarian because her parents are. She is also attending college here in Wa State where every course she's attended has been liberally (pun intended) dotted with political nudging toward more progressive ideas. So, we spend a lot of time discussing her curriculum and her teacher's opinions and I try and answer her questions and direct her to sources on information I think are helpful. Most importantly, I tell her that she shouldn't try and pin herself to any particular political ideals until she can identify it's principles, argue them and (hopefully) win.
Right now it seems you are about three "meaningful conversations" from pitching a tent in UCDavis - and that's what people are sensing here. That either you're really not serious and you're here to troll the board, or your on that borderline between compassion for your fellow man and being sucked into a bad situation.
Third example of showing you are not serious here.
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 6:09am.
borax: Voting isn't working for a large number of these people. Certainly not quickly enough. People weren't taking their concerns seriously.
Again, the big thinker comes up with some big thoughts. Voting isn't working for them. Therefore we must allow them to obstruct police and fail to comply with instructions from a police officer.
Voting is the same for every citizen in this country over the age of 18 and not convicted of felonies. Do you think attending college gives you an expedited voting edge? And don't tell me it is not your view. You sympathetically brought their hissy fit demands here.
Voting is working at the same pace for me. Am I laying down in the street in front of police vehicles and ambulances. YES. Ambulances. Very same law on obstructing in California. The bad law you might say?
Do all of us get to throw hissy fits in public because a vote did not go our way? Because there are plenty of people here that feel the 2008 election did not go their way. Can we all get together and lock accounts and block you from posting because we were not satisfied with the voting?
Are you serious here or not?
Oh wait, you were serious. In the very next breath, you talked about unelected bureaucrats at a school you are free not to attend. I don't like the bureaucrats there. I am choosing not to attend. That has nothing to do with voting. In other words, this is just a big collective hissy fit over just about any grievance you and others can dig up. Voting, Bureaucrats. And what is this, oh, high prices. My, no one else in this country has ever complained of high prices. (WARNING - LANGUAGE - SERIOUSLY - LANGUAGE)
How about the weather? Maybe they could throw that in too. Life sucks for poor little hissy fitters. Man, they have troubles none of us have faced. Yeah, you are serious in your rational here.
What 'change' are they asking
Submitted by ant on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:21pm.
What 'change' are they asking for? They already voted in "the ones they've been waiting for", it's been their policies for over three years now. Same goes for California, if it's going down the sh*t-hole, college liberals are a segment largely responsible for it. They want change? Stop voting in Democrats for a 'change'. Idiots get what they deserve.
ant---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:45pm.
Xlnt post.
As are the rest of the ones aimed at edifying Borax.
I noticed that the video caption up top was labeled by the media as "Caught on tape", as if the campus police were somehow breaking the law; the protestors, who were protesting, not sitting in class, were referred to as students; and that it pointed out the 'students' were sprayed in the face.
That is because LE has determined that pepper spray is not all that effective when applied to the feet.
MD
Thanks md
Submitted by ant on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:16pm.
A sentence in Clevie's original post here was already answered in a great way. "Once you start over-reacting to these protests.....you're only asking for trouble." But I think he maybe be warning us in the historical sense. '60's protests have lead Generation X to have to suffer through the policies and general idiocy of the elected officials and bureaucrats that were remnants of those halcyon days. Ya think when Clevie means 'trouble' he's suggesting we may have to suffer yet again as these principaled Occupiers grow up, get elected, and say good-bye to their psuedo-hippie principals and staunch communism in pursuit of money, power, and overt corruption? Such as we see in Elizabeth Warren, Pelosi, and Obama?
Hate to think the disgusting, bloated, swamp of a liberal government is already circling back again before we've gotten rid of the one we have. I won't stand for it a second time.
Changed their minds
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:45am.
A lot of the people I know here in Davis are very upset with Obama for a lot of the same reasons most of us are. They don't like his foreign policy (or lack thereof). They don't like the amount of power Obama has amassed for himself. A lot of the newest voters (18-22) don't particularly care for Democrats. (They aren't exactly for Republicans either but...) We as conservatives/libertarians can reach out to them and tell them about our ideas, or we can laugh at them and condemn them for the instances where we don't agree with them. Its our choice. California has lots of problems, sure, but a lot of these "kids" are trying to save it any way they can. Voting isn't working for them. A lot of the problems stem from unelected bureaucrats. You can't vote them out. The protesters are trying to hold their elected officials accountable for the actions of the bureaucrats that report to them. Is that so bad?
Don't be lazy
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:54am.
Protests like what you are so vehemently defending are ultimately ineffective.
What you are looking for is what a lot of people are looking for - a quick fix. There is, and never will be, a substitute for a vigilant, involved voting public, and elections. The end. Don't like the unelected bureaucrats? Well, guess who is ultimately responsible for them showing up? Why, it's the elected officials. And therefore, ultimately, YOU.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Ok
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:11am.
I agree that an educated, involved electorate is the best thing for our country. But do you think that government is doomed to be a slow, reactionary, unwieldy thing? People in California aren't happy about being unemployed and over-taxed. They want change. And they are willing to do what it takes to bring it about as quickly as possible. I think that we can choose how quickly we change our policies, and that pressuring our elected officials can have an accelerating effect on positive change. A quick fix... well maybe not as quick as it could be. But I think that citizen action can do good. Have you never written a letter to your representative/senator? I think protest place even more pressure on people. Especially when they receive the attention that this one did.
The past is in the past. Voters made bad decisions. People who weren't even old enough to vote in the last elections are participating in these protests. Don't blame them. They are the victims of these poor decisions. They want something different for their state and their university.
Yeah, right
Submitted by ckc1227 on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 3:58am.
People in California aren't happy about being unemployed and over-taxed. They want change.
Yeah, they're so desperate for change that they voted in Governor Moonbeam again, lol. Puhlease, who are you trying to kid?
ckc---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:17am.
Zing !!!
Only possible improvement would be - "Who are you trying to kid, kid?"
MD
Well,
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:29am.
That would be inaccurate. I am a married professional obtaining the terminal degree in my respected, useful, technology-related field. I am no "kid."
And jeez, people, I'm on your side here. I bet we agree on many more things than we disagree on. I am just trying to put my point of view out there so that people can consider it and maybe understand things a little better by hearing another side of this story. I've been on NB for almost 5 years now. I don't usually comment unless I have something to add that others may not know about, but I'm pretty active. I follow the twitter feed.
The protestors were breaking the law, and the other side ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:51am.
of the story would be that they did not break the law, and therefore were not subjected to being sprayed.
If you mean to portray a 'different' angle or perspective of the story or complain that certain laws should not be on the books, fine; but the basic premise cannot be changed or altered - they broke the law.
Period.
MD
Well,
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:23am.
Look at the platform Jerry Brown ran on. It was a change platform. Not saying that I believe him. There is still a lot of "I've always voted Democrat" and liberal on social issues voters. But when it comes to the economy and government, we share a lot of ground with many of the protesters. We all see the problems. Sometimes we disagree on the solutions. You can't seriously believe that Californians WANT unemployment and over-taxation. They do want change. We just disagree on how to achieve it.
A "change" platform does indeed---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:43am.
sound familiar.
Explain then, if Californians DO NOT want unemployment and over-taxation, why are liberal Democrats, like Moonbeam, continually put in office?
Not trying to be deliberately combative, but you are too quick to use the collective "we", and most of your ruminations do seem to come across as those of a 'feel good' liberal.
MD
MD - something doesn't smell right
Submitted by MrShy on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:32am.
"Not trying to be deliberately combative, but you are too quick to use the collective "we", and most of your ruminations do seem to come across as those of a 'feel good' liberal."
MD, you must be in a good mood tonight, because you're being too kind and trusting with this one. Borax has been giving us the "aw shucks, I'm with you guys, been here for 5 years" routine a few too many times, while forging blindly onward with his total liberal narrative on OWS and law & order.
If this guy/gal is a conservative, I spent a week in the Bahamas with a Russian beauty queen. Okay, hold on, scratch that...
If borax is a conservative, I'm a bigger rock star than Lenny Kravitz. There, that one works.
:)
- shy on vinyl
Join Mr. Shy and The 1* Percent
Shy---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 8:18am.
Ya got me, Shy.
Good mood, all right; directly related to my new tag line.
Further consideration leads me to acknowledge that you are correct, as is The Vet. Never saw a post by borax over the last two years and yet he has become incredibly productive on this single thread.
He may well be a part of the latest swarm.
Enough of that.
The lady is a knockout, bro.
I am proud of you, and equally jealous. :o)
MD
And what good things happening, borax---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:57am.
can you enumerate reference OWS?
Or any "sit-in" - "camp-out" type protest procedure, ever, for that matter.
MD
Not sure I understand your question
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:44am.
Are you asking what good is coming from the occupy movement? I think its a little early to judge its success right now. But they are sure bringing some problems to light.
I asked if you could enumerate any---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:03am.
good things coming out of the OWS spectacle.
It certainly isn't too early to judge that the only problems that OWS are 'bringing to light' are problems of their own making.
The OWS crowd has put forth neither a coherent message nor a means of implementation; how then can "success" be quantified at some distant remove?
MD
18-22..
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:10am.
at best you've only participated in 1 or 2 major elections. What you need at this point, is patience and perseverance. Unsane is right - there are no quick fixes. Anyone taking up permanent residence in one of these shanty towns is likely beyond reasoning with. Find the people who are expressing cautious dismay. Those are the ones to reach out to.
Well...
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:52am.
I've been a registered voter since 2002. I'm a graduate student getting a PhD at UC Davis, so I'm older than most. I find that like a lot of people, the occupiers here at UCD are genuinely trying to make the world better. Some of their ideas have potential, and some are simply daffy. They do, however, have pretty open minds when it comes to new ideas on how to solve societies problems. If anything, they are too open to people reasoning with them. They consider all new ideas. They just don't always reject the right opinions, from our point of view, but you can certainly talk to them. They talk so much that they waste a lot of time talking endlessly.
I think society can change as rapidly as we want to. Our nation certainly went to hell in a handbasket quick enough. I think we can get it back if we make the right choices. Part of being able to make the right decisions is listen to people to find out what the problems are. Sometimes leaders don't listen. That is when some people conclude drastic action is needed to force the people in charge to realize how serious the problem is. The hope is to get change to happen quicker. How else can you help change to happen more rapidly? If you have any better ideas, I bet the occupiers would love to hear them.
so what is *the* problem
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 3:07am.
if you could pick the OWS foremost issue - and how would you solve it.
Hmmm...
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:38am.
Well, I think they are concerned about many of the same things that we are. One of the frustrating things about the occupy movement is the plethora of issues that they care about. There isn't a foremost one. Here at UC Davis, the main complaint of the occupiers is the inefficiency of the UC system and California in general, and how it is leading to massive tuition hikes and the value of their degree to decrease. They are getting less bang for their buck.
I like that they are bringing the problems to the foreground, but, my solution might be different than their solution. I would apply conservative/libertarian principles to the problem, take a six sigma-like approach. Measure cost vs. benefit of every part of the system. Cut regulation, reduce waste, all those good things. And I would obviously change the leadership, which is something the occupiers want to do as well.
"The inefficiency of the UC system"?
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:49pm.
So, in your own words, the Occuturds don't care about society in general, only that they aren't getting enough "bang for their buck"? So, it really isn't about the "99%" at all, is it? It's about you and yours.
"The plethora of issues that they care about. There isn't a foremost one". So, they don't really know what they want? Is that what you mean? IOW, they just want to sit on the quad, obstruct the right of free passage to everyone else, and be taken seriously? It doesn't work that way. This is not the redress of grievances envisioned by the men who wrote the Constitution. And redress of grievance does not mean you get to just go sit on a sidewalk, block a street, or occupy private property, or interfere with anyone's right to use public property.
"I like that they are bringing the problems to the foreground, but, my solution might be different than their solution". So, how is the "system" supposed to respond, when you guys can't settle on what the problems are, or how they should be settled?
Borax
Submitted by ant on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 2:40am.
With all due respect, you're full of it. Oh boo-hoo, these kids voted for Obama and Democrats and now they're unhappy with him (and I know they did, most university going youngsters are liberals through and through, don't try to tell me different). Elections have consequences, and now they're learning that. So they're not happy with the messiah three years in, AND you're telling me "voting isn't working for them". My, what an impatient bunch of brats. They're COLLEGE KIDS, for pete's sake! They haven't been voting long enough to think it's not working for them!!! What a crock! Who isn't unhappy with bureaucracy? You know how you avoid massive bureaucracy? YOU DON'T VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS!
If you want to waste your time trying to get idiot liberal, marxist, Obamabots to sign up for the TeaParty, that's your prerogative. Life experience will turn many away from the liberal plantation, others will seek out the truth themselves, but some will never grow a brain. Oh well. Just don't insult me with "voting isn't working for them". It's not working out too well for a lot of us, and we've been voting a lot longer, but we're not defying the police over it. The police have nothing to do with their perceived injustices, and sitting on a sidewalk ain't gonna convince Pelosi, Obama, Boehner or anyone else to get you a job or pay your tuition.
Three years of Obama and some 18- 22 years olds believe voting ain't working for them, give me a freakin' break.
With all due respect
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 3:09am.
If voting isn't working out for you very well either, maybe you should consider alternative methods as well. The founders certainly did.
I have a lot of respect for the beginnings of the civil rights movement. They certainly made a lot of progress this way. I think they went overboard later on, but...
I don't want anyone to pay my tuition or get me a job. I am in a field where my tuition is paid for me because I WORK in a lab doing research, as well as TA'ing classes. I also get a stipend for my efforts, since my field is actually something useful, and for much more than just "understanding the human condition." The protesters want reasonable tuition rates, which means that the administration has to stop wasting so much money, and the opportunity for job prospects later on, which means handing out fewer degrees in fields that aren't useful and don't provide the hope of jobs later on.
Is there a particular reason why change couldn't happen quicker than elections allow for?
No, to your last question. In
Submitted by ant on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 3:33am.
No, to your last question. In fact, we are obligated to remove a government that does the things this one does by the Constitution.( Actually, if I had time and space to list every infraction, blatant crime and injustice our current government engages in, you'd see we are way past due to re-establish a sound government OF the People). I wish I remembered the exact wording, the Founding Fathers said it so much better. So, I have to ask where were you guys when the TeaParty was being marginalized? Could've used your help. I don't trust Occupy, they are mostly Marxist fools and communists and big government cronies, like the Unions. They are going after a boogeyman that the government WANTS them to go after. They are no help.
I don't have any answers, the best we can hope for at this point is 2012. We need to wrestle power from the Democrats. Sorry, if that sounds cliche' or 'right wing' but that's the only way to start paring down bureaucracy, spending, and many other problems. That's another reason I don't trust Occupy. Part of their demands is 'open-borders', that is guaranteed to give Dems a stronghold through fraud and the entitlement classes proclivity to vote themselves our money. If we find ourselves over the same barrel after 2012, we are going to have to seriously think about what the Founders have charged us to do. Occupy is too full of riff-raff and ignoramuses to be of any good in this endeavor.
Here is something that may interest you and your friends. It's a petition to make politicians accountable for violating their oath of office. It's a start. I've already signed it.
http://oathact.us/
Yup.
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 4:54am.
I agree with a lot of what you have said. I hadn't heard that the occupiers want open borders. That would be a disaster. I do think we need to make legitimate legal immigration easier for certain groups of people, including the talented/educated foreigners that could help make our country better. I was right there with you for much of the tea party. I defended it to many of my liberal friends here at Davis. I think we need better outreach to the occupiers. I don't like that word "outreach" because of the connotations, but it'll have to do. I think many of them would convert if we showed them the slightest bit of interest and explained our ideas to them. They are unhappy too, you know, and about many of the same things. Don't judge them too harshly. I am speaking to you from "the belly of the beast" here, and I'm telling you that they are not that bad.
Deal with it
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:29pm.
With apologies to my Rightist friends in CA, the CA voters are getting all the crap they deserve for slavishly voting for crap every single chance they get.
For some weird reason, I don't run into cops all that much, and when I do, they don't pepper spray me. Any ideas why? I don't care for them, and on their best day I see cops as a necessary evil, but if they are being compelled to break out the pepper spray, something is wrong...
There are better ways for your fellow students to demand change. Picking a fight with the cops isn't one of them.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Uns,---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:50pm.
from a Rightist friend of yours in CA, --- no apology is necessary.
You are "right on", as it were.
MD
Logical Fallacy No?
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:57am.
-"I don't care for them, and on their best day I see cops as a necessary evil, but if they are being compelled to break out the pepper spray, something is wrong..."
So... because some people chose to do something = they must have had a legitamate reason to do so?
I don't think that that equation is always true.
And I don't necessarily think that they were "picking a fight." They probably assumed that they would eventually be confronted. I don't think they were looking to get doused with a chemical weapon.
I do agree that the voters are reaping what they have sown. But they are trying to change their path now. That is part of what these protests are about. They are fighting the negative momentum of the path laid by past generations.
Borax, the king of naivete
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:11am.
Um, the protesters were told to leave, were they not?
And did they not do so?
Had they left, nothing. But they decided to stay, thus PICKING A FIGHT with the cops.
They got what they deserved.
There is no logical fallacy there. None.
And sorry, that's not a chemical weapon. Now CS is a chemical weapon and I am sure they were going to use that next. And cops have lots of other nasty things in their arsenal they could have used. Likewise, don't be an idiot - you and they should be well aware of what cops have at their disposal. If they didn't know full well what they were getting into, the protesters will have had you beat in the naivete department.
I'm sorry, my naive poster, no, the cops are not going to go up to them and say "Will you leave, pretty please with sugar on top?" And then, when the protesters refuse to leave, then whine "We are so crestfallen that you won't leave. But really, you must! What can we do to get you to leave?"
I'd love to see how you handle a cop pulling you over for a traffic offense. You are probably a reason why they behave like such d*******s to the rest of us!
Again, protests are ineffective. If you truly want to effect change, there is ZERO substitute for getting involved, being vigilant over your government, and voting each and every time an election takes place.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Ad hominem "idiot" "naivete"
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:03am.
Do you obey all commands from people in authority unthinkingly? Is civil disobedience (a la MLK and Gandhi) "picking a fight?" Just because the cops have the power and authority to do things, that doesn't mean that they SHOULD do something.
I've never been pulled over for anything more than a broken headlight that I was on my way to get fixed, and the cop and I got along just fine. I've got nothing against most cops, most of the time. I just think these ones (or at least whoever gave them their orders) crossed the line this time.
I'd love to hear your reasoning why protests never accomplish anything. I think there is ample evidence to refute that. Wikipedia "civil disobedience" for starters.
Disobeying ANY lawful command---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:08am.
of law enforcement, whether you agree with the command or not, is damned sure picking a fight that you are guaranteed to lose.
Right quick, and rightfully so.
MD
I am thinking that you need
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 8:20am.
I am thinking that you need to demand a refund from your university. You obviously don't know what an "ad hominem" is other than you think it is something cool to whine that will make you sound smart. Not to mention your reading comprehension is so bad admission to any university should have been impossible for you. I said "Don't be an idiot". I didn't call you one. And you are, in fact, quite naive. Every post here shows me and lots of others just how naive you are. Especially that utter nonsensical whining about how living in a society governed by the use of force (like ours) is really anarchy. (That from a post up above.)
Do I obey all commands from people in authority unthinkingly? Ask yourself the following:
1) Do I get myself in stupid situations like those dumb kids you are so vehemently defending?
The answer to that is no. It is RARE that I interact with cops. The last time I had the misfortune to run into them was in Raleigh. Out of the three I ran into when they closed off the street, only one was worth a damn, as he was quite helpful in giving me alternatives to my foot travel, after of course barking that I couldn't go down the street I wanted to. The other two were d***s, but I looked at the situation and considered my travel plans for that day, and decided my travel plans outweighed any possible benefit that I could gain from picking a fight with the Raleigh PD. So, shockingly, the Raleigh PD decided not to use pepper spray on me. Nor did they use any other forms of physical force.
2) On those rare occasions I deal with cops on a business end, do I follow instructions? Yes. You see, sadly for you, Gandhi and MLK were fighting genuine injustice. Getting pulled over for speeding is not an injustice. Getting pepper sprayed because you are stupidly impeding police officers in their duties is not injustice. That's called failing to pick and choose your battles wisely.
By the way, if you are going to cite history for me, or in your case demand I do so FOR you, Wikipedia is an extremely poor source of information. If you did that to me at my university I'd laugh you out of my office as I have to other students. In any event, civil disobedience doesn't work, elections (!) do. You can protest, burn down UC-Davis, and throw the biggest temper tantrum in the world - it doesn't matter if you don't vote in the people who care about the same problems you do.
All your romanticizing f civil disobedience cannot cover up the sorry track record of protests. If "civil disobedience" was remotely effective, the PRC would be a representative democracy in some from, starting in 1989. But that did not happen.
And I am also thinking that you are not a conservative. ESPECIALLY seeing as you have some sympathies with the "Occupy" fools.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
borax,-
Submitted by NC Cop on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 9:37am.
Having been in law enforcement for 16 years I know how things can look to people who aren't subjected to them all the time. A previous poster, a correctional officer, was right on the money. In the use of force continuim pepper spray is low on the list, meaning we can deploy it in a variety of situations.
Why? Because it is generally harmless and doesn't permanently injure people. It is a temporary irritant, although it is one HELL of an irritant. They wash it out and they are done. Would you prefer the police wail on them with their nightsticks? Of course not. Should they have started man handling everyone? Then when a few protestors show up with broken arms and wrists you'll be screaming "POLICE BRUTALITY!!". The pepper spray was the best choice for the situation that was presented by the protestors.
Whether you agree with the law is another topic. If you disagree with the law that was enforced in this particular situation, then lobby your local lawmakers to change or repeal it. Cops don't make laws.
Thanks.
Submitted by borax on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:12pm.
This is the best response to my points yet. Thanks for the additional information and insight, and for keeping the tone level. Pepper spray can be dangerous though- http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2011/11/20/about-pepper-spray/. I can appreciate that it may be better than broken limbs. Like I said earlier, I am with most cops, most of the time.
My question is, should they have been asked to leave at all? Which way leads to the best outcome, removing them, or letting them stay?
I still think you should watch the full video of the spraying though. Watch one that starts well before the spraying. I posted a clip earlier, thinking it showed more than it did, evidently, so I will let everyone find the right clip on their own.
Protesting is these people's form of lobbying, and in some ways, it is more effective than writing letters.
You say thanks, borax---
Submitted by matthewdean on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 7:29pm.
and then revert right back to form.
"My question is, should they have been asked to leave at all?"
Yes. They were breaking the law.
Why do you keep implying that the "whole" video, if viewed, is going to open peoples eyes and probably change their mind about how unjustly brutal the actions of the involved officers were?
You are in a rut.
A rut is a grave with both ends knocked out.
MD
and...
Submitted by kata on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 7:42pm.
further close up video reveals that they were approached personally by a cop to tell them they were going to be sprayed. Apparently they said it that's fine. Fine? Going back to my original post in this thread - this is how its supposed to play out. People willing to be arrested, harassed and maced come forward to volunteer before the police even arrive. The cops are actually playing into the hands of the protestors by doing it.
I see what you're saying
Submitted by NC Cop on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 10:12pm.
I see what you're saying borax, but your source there leaves a lot to be desired. The writer of that blog is, by her own writing: "I’ve written five books – most recently The Poisoner’s Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York. My earlier books concern supernatural research, the science of love and affection, the biology of sex differences, and ethical issues in primate research."
I prefer a Department of Justice Research myself:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/195739.pdf
"What did the
researchers find?
■ The North Carolina study
found that the number of
injuries to police officers
and suspects declined after
pepper spray was introduced.
Complaints that
the police used excessive
force also declined.
■ The study of in-custody
deaths concluded that
pepper spray contributed
to death in two of the 63
cases, both involving people
with asthma. In the
other cases, the researcher
concluded that death was
caused by the arrestee’s
drug use, disease, positional
asphyxia, or a combination
of these factors."
So in other words, police officer injuries went down, complaints of excessive force went down and the deaths and serious injuries that occurred were because of pre existing medical conditions.
Sorry, you article just noted what MIGHT happen and talked about how uncomfortable it is. It's SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable. I'm sorry, but if that is your source, it doesn't have the desire you intended.
Sigh...
Submitted by Kaleidoscopic God on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:34pm.
Why, oh why, is my generation so friggin' STUPID?!
Hey...........I was around in
Submitted by killa37 on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 10:05pm.
Hey...........I was around in the 60's.............I saw the whole deal. But I'd have to agree with you - these guys are dirtier, stupider, angrier, lazier, more demanding, and more useless than their counterparts of yesteryear. In fact, they'd probably embarrass the hell out of a lot of the 60's hippies. But............as you've seen, there are quite a few holdovers from that era who are still stuck in the same mindset - maybe constipated is a better word.
You're a 'metal guy', right?? I invite you to take a listen to '7and 7 is' by the 60's LA band called 'LOVE". Probably the first 'heavy metal' record I can think of.............unless you go all the way back to Link Wray in the late 50's with his classic 'Rumble'.
I'm seeing and hearing the
Submitted by TerryWest on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 9:37pm.
I'm seeing and hearing the media spin the spraying on a loop yet didn't hear about or see any footage re the police being abused across the nation by the protesters.
I'm not sure the majority of Americans are giving the liberal media the attention or outrage over this spraying they are hoping for, they only look more corrupt with thier extream selective coverage of events.
Question
Submitted by Bill Brasky on Mon, 11/21/2011 - 11:55pm.
How much time did the networks devote to the clip of the gorilla threatening to throw a Molotov cocktail through the window of Macy's?
I gotta say, I love your user
Submitted by ant on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:07am.
I gotta say, I love your user name, (raising my beer) "Bill Brasky!". LOL.
→ What's missing here?
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 12:56am.
Where is the violent recoil from these "victims" upon being sprayed?
Is that stuff made from bell peppers? Is it possible they were just sprayed with a disinfectant of sorts?
You got that right, Cool.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:56pm.
No way in hell that was standard pepper spray.
Anyone else here get sick of the borax snivels?
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 6:19am.
I quit about halfway through. Guy comes here with half baked thoughts based mostily on emotion and expects us to take him seriously. Wrong. You want to be taken serious, try making a cogent point.
Yes, we should take him cereal people. The police are here to penalize. He is married and has a gradual degree and is working on worthfull ever higher degree and that makes him cereal about the penalizing police.
The full video
Submitted by jeffinsac on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 1:11pm.
Here is a link to the video the media does not want you to see that shows what happen BEFORE they got pepper sprayed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk4Qz_uNFj0
Note that others in the video are telling them to move and that the when the police tell them they are going to be pepper sprayed if they that's fine that's fine.
Boo frickin' whoo
Submitted by telecaster on Tue, 11/22/2011 - 5:34pm.
Protestors got sprayed?....I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight.