Media Myth Debunked: Class Sizes Have Dropped 40 Percent Since 1960
A regular media meme, especially since Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's comments regarding public sector employees last week, has been that there just aren't enough school teachers in America.
Such statements ignore that according to the Census Bureau, since 1960, the average class size in our public schools has declined by 40 percent as the number of teachers rose almost four times faster than the student population.
In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.
In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.
You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.
That's not something the Left and their media minions care to discuss as political leaders try to deal with budget deficits by cutting payrolls.
Taking this exercise a tad further, this also means that in the past 50 years, the number of public school teachers has risen 3.6 times faster than the number of students.
I quite doubt you'd find anyone to claim the quality of education has risen as the nation went on a teacher hiring binge or even admit that such a binge has occurred.
Yet the solution we constantly hear for declining test scores and graduation rates is ever more teachers.
On a related note, although the Census Bureau has only tracked teachers' salaries since 1985, this also tells an interesting tale.
In 1985, the average public school primary and secondary school teacher earned $23,587 a year, or $49,309 adjusted for inflation. In 2011, he or she earned $54,220, a ten percent increase.
That doesn't seem like much, but as liberals constant complain that incomes for regular folks in America have been stagnant, public school teachers have actually done relatively well.
Consider too that in 2010, the median income across the entire population was $49,445.
Yes, the average public school teacher makes more than half the citizens he or she serves.
So while the number of public school teachers has declined in the past few years as a result of local government budget problems - a fact the President, his Party, and the media that aid and abet them are trying to make political hay on - when looked upon historically, this is not the crisis they're claiming it is.
In fact, and although I'm by no means advocating it, we could lose another 1 million teachers before we got back to the classroom size that gave most of us and education we were proud of.
Remember that the next time some liberal media member says it's immoral to consider education cuts when trying to balance a budget.
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— Noel Sheppard (@NoelSheppard) June 9, 2012
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Comments
Education Level
Submitted by rman2 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 8:14pm.
Only 30% of the American population (a new record high) has a bachelors degree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/education/census-finds-bachelors-degre...
I know it is the NYT but the info is from the Census. :)
100% of teachers have a bachelors, yet we only make slightly more then half the population in wages. The majority of teachers I know have a masters degree. How about a comparison of wages between people with degrees? I am projected to have 34 students in my classroom next year as well. I only had 23 last year :)
Funny that you say only 30%
Submitted by monsterman on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 9:37pm.
Funny that you say only 30% and the article says more than 30%, ahh no big deal. BTW, do you think a degree is as exceptional as it once was? Having extra time since retiring I decided to take some classes last year. It's pretty much a pay your money and the school will print a degree once the student has produced enough PowerPoint presentations or poorly written papers. It's all about the money and keeping the professors employed. I was never an exceptional student, probably about above average, but I see the work that gets graded nowadays as exceptional and know it would never have passed when I was young. And we wonder why we are falling behind the rest of the world?
I feel for the 12,700 or 22.6% in 2009 who wasted their money on a liberal arts degree and are probably landscaping this summer.
Don't get me wrong, there are many great teachers and professors out there, but the bigger picture is broken
Excellent Point
Submitted by alinla on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:11pm.
I know many teachers working in the public school system and all have far more students than 15 or 16. That stat seems a bit off. As for the pay situation: I have a teacher friend who is home every work day by 3 pm. He also has July and August off. He makes $70k w/ full benefits and whines constantly that he is under paid. I'll let you decide if he has a case.
But you teach the same thing over and over again.
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:13pm.
Year after year. Same material. Same textbooks. Same tests.
Do you really need a Masters Degree to explain to Jimmy that if you have one apple and I give you another, you will now have two apples.
Sorry if I oversimplified it, but I don't think the degree thing is a fair way to compare how much teachers make.
I really hope you aren't looking for pity here...
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:39pm.
First of all, if you don't like your salary, get another job. But I know where I live, teachers salaries are on par with other professionals. Including benefits, they often rise above other professionals. Add to that the fact that teacher layoffs here are pretty much unheard of, and they can get a full retirement after 30 years, they do much better than the slobs at our other local industries who constantly sweat out being laid off before retirement. Did I mention they have to contribute to health care insurance and pensions are pretty much non existent in the private sector? And if you whine when you get to much work you get fired.
No Pity!
Submitted by rman2 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 11:32pm.
Not looking for pity. Just making some observations. I believe I have a great job! And in today's economy, I am glad to have one. I am not looking for more pay, just looking for a fair comparison is all. I think people hear about teachers today and automatically think liberal, agenda driven, anti-American, public sector punching bag union member! We are not all like that. Take me for example. I proudly served in the Army for eight years. I am a conservative Reagan Republican. I do not belong to a union. And, gasp, I was actually a preacher while teaching public school. I have taught now for going on 20 years. The vast majority of teachers are hard working, caring, professionals who do not deserve to be lumped in with the bad apples that seem to be the headline makers on many conservative websites! These bad teachers are out there I will not deny that. But remember, there are also some darn good conservative Americans out there who also happen to be teachers!
Amen, brother! There are a
Submitted by anonymousteacher1210 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:29am.
Amen, brother! There are a few of us still here!
So why are you whining about your job and your salary?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:31am.
.
Who is whining?
Submitted by rman2 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 1:01am.
I just wanted a fair comparison. If you compare people who have a college degree with those that do not, which is the majority of Americans, it goes without saying, people with degrees are going to have a higher income on average. So claiming "teachers are paid at a higher rate on average then other workers" is really a no duh comparison that does not mean much.
Degrees vrs Non Degrees
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 1:07pm.
The claim that someone with a degree, on average, will always make more than those who do not have a degree is, actually, not true. Plumbers, for example, make more, on average, than Teachers even though most Plumbers don't have a College Degree. This is because most people, whether they hold a degree or not, are paid based upon their relevant value to society.
I hate to break this to you, but most Plumbers, Mechanics, and the like , are far more valuable to us than Teachers are. Just about anyone can teach a child to read and write, but very few of us can actually be plumbers or mechanics. Those are highly specialized fields. Teaching, on the other hand, is a generalized field, hence the lower pay.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
"Teaching, on the other hand,
Submitted by ckc1227 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:27pm.
"Teaching, on the other hand, is a generalized field, hence the lower pay."
Not to mention teachers today do even less teaching than they used to. Many of the lessons in classrooms today are delivered via a computer. The teacher is merely there to answer questions if someone has a problem understanding the lesson.
Let's not discount the tutors
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 2:49pm.
Let's not discount the tutors, the students who teach their classmates outside of the classroom. Not a single one of them have a formal education as a teacher, and they certainly don't have a degree, nor are they paid for their services, but they do a good job teaching despite of this. In most cases, they're better at it than the teachers are, for they usually get better results than the teachers do.
And let us not forget the "homework" assignment, which is the kids literally teaching themselves.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Speaking of homework...
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 3:45pm.
Speaking of homework, I used to annoy my teachers to no end on that very subject. Starting about 3rd grade, I just stopped doing homework altogether. The "assignment" usually ended up in my locker, to be cleaned out 4 times a year (and that usually involved a 35 gallon trash bin.) The teaches always asked me why I never did homework. I always responded: "How did I do on that last test?' They would usually respond: "You go an A." At which point I would say: "Well, there's your answer."
Needless to say, even though I usually received A's on all the tests, the fact that I didn't do homework would count against me and usually ended up with a C at the end of the year.
Then there was the math teacher, Algebra, I believe, that told the class on the first day: "Anyone who can tell me the square root of ten will receive an immediate A for the year." I went home and actually calculated the square root to be 3.1622778 (if I remember correctly), which is what it is. I proudly told the teach of my accomplishment and he responded "you used a calculator, didn't you?" I responded "yes I did, but it didn't have a square root function. I calculated it by guessing what the approximate number was, multiply it by itself and see if it calculated out to 10. If it didn't, I would approximate what the difference would be and adjust accordingly. After about 10 tries, I arrived at the final number. 3.1622778. Every time I ran it through the calculator, the answer was always 10. So, where's my A?" I though it was a brilliant approach. That's when he pulled his "surprise." He told me that the square root of ten is an infinite number, one that has no end, so my efforts were fruitless. I'll never arrive at the number! No automatic A for me! What a bastard! I think he was just pissed that I didn't need algebra to arrive at the answer. I just used simple logic and one single simple equation, a number times itself, no advance mathematics needed.
Needless to say, I didn't last long in that class. A few weeks later, he started covering how to use algebra to calculate square roots. At that point, I stood up, walked out, and never returned.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Just about anyone can teach.
Submitted by rman2 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 3:46pm.
Ya right. I can fix my own car and do most plumbing as well. That does not make me a mechanic or plumber. And if you think teaching a kid to read or write makes you a teacher you are sadly mistaken.
I should have used the "more likely option".
Just saying:
http://howtoedu.org/college-facts/how-much-more-money-do-college-grads-m...
Yo can fix your own car?
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 3:54pm.
You can fix your own car? I doubt that highly. I don't believe you have a diagnostic computer in your garage. Nor do I believe that you can repair a fuel manifold, a transmission, or even replace a damaged u joint.
You do your own plumbing? I doubt that highly as well. I bet you don't even know what a spanner is, let alone how to calculate proper pipe size for things like drain pipes and vent stacks, or even supply lines. I wouldn't be surprised that the only plumbing you know how to do is how to unclog a drain.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
I can read.
Submitted by rman2 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 4:09pm.
I can read. According to you that is all that is needed to be anything you want to be. Or wait, do I need some kind of special training? Your not telling me these mechanics and plumbers have some kind of, dare I say it, schooling? Maybe with some actual teachers? Who would have thunk it. And by the way, I am sure the people who make less money then teachers must really feel like crap because obviously our society does not "value them as much". Your words, not mine!
Schooling
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 4:14pm.
"Your not telling me these mechanics and plumbers have some kind of, dare I say it, schooling?"
Yea, if you count spending years as an apprentice learning from the guys who have been doing it for most of their lives as "schooling." That's how most plumbers, mechanics, electricians, and the like do it. That how most tradesmen learn their trade.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Why would the feel like crap?
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 4:35pm.
"And by the way, I am sure the people who make less money then teachers must really feel like crap because obviously our society does not "value them as much"."
Why would they feel like crap? They already know how much society values their work, because they already know how much that work is worth, income wise. It's only the people who tend to overvalue their own worth who would feel like "crap."
Look at it this way: You make far less money than the professors who taught you in college. Does that make you feel like crap? Or do you understand that society values the professors more than the people they taught to be teachers in a public school?
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
I'm proud of you.
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 6:24pm.
"I can read."
So can most school children. They can even teach each other how to read, no college degree necessary. That's my point.
Teaching is a basic human skill, a generalized skill, one that's found throughout the general population. It's a skill that is found in most people simply because we couldn't survive without it. We've been teaching each other throughout our entire existence. We teach each other how to walk, how to run, how to communicate, what foods to eat, what liquids to drink, ect. In most cases, it doesn't require a diploma. It's only lately that people need a diploma in order to teach, as a means of "proving" their abilities. But, as we all know, a diploma isn't "proof" of an ability, it's only an indication of proficiency. The ability, the skill, is inherent in just about everyone. So, even though you have that college diploma, you have pretty much the same teaching skills as everyone else. The only think that diploma indicates is how much knowledge you have. Other than that, your abilities are no different than, say, those of a soccer mom, or even one of your own students. The skill, the ability, is generalized, so it isn't as valued as a specialized skill.
The same is not true of other professions, like the profession a tradesmen specializes in. Not everyone have the skills necessary to be plumbers, electricians, mechanics, metal workers, ect. This are specialized skills simply because not everyone shares them. Even amongst the tradesmen themselves, the skills are highly specialized. A person who is skilled enough to become an electrician, for example, generally doesn't have the skills necessary to become a carpenter. They require two different sets of skills. That's because, unlike teaching, these skills are relativity new in human history. They haven't been around long enough to become generalized. Only a small percentage of the population can actually do it. That's why they are valued much more than a generalized skill such as teaching. Do you understand?
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
You want to know people without degrees make so much?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 5:49pm.
Look at unions. The fact that these people are making so much is not necissarily a good thing. They have strong armed their bosses into paying them more than their labor is worth. In the case of private industry, it has caused some business's to fail, others to move overseas. In the public sector, it is causing governments to go bankrupt.
Bad Apples?
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 7:25am.
The problem isn't that there are a few bad apples it is that the collective apples is rotten at its core.
One- public union in negotiations with compliant politicians over tax dollars that do not overly effect either of the participants is ludicrous.
Two - Admin/top heavy (I think the teachers can at least agree on that one)
Three - Government involvement in standardizing too much of the classroom limits the abilities of the teachers though some type of standardize testing is necessary for measure.
Four - Politicizing of the school boards. Community Organizers wanting a comfy government position start in just such positions and then bully their way through the admin levels
Five - like hospitals the loss of focus on the patient/student is causing a loss of control in the schools where getting the proper form filled out for the appropriate fed/state kickback is top priority.
Six - The 'few rotten apples" are the loudest and the most influential (Ayres, Churchill, McCreery, etc...)
So you’re saying they
Submitted by John21 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 8:44am.
So you’re saying they actually want you to work for your paycheck? What Horrors!! How inhumane!!! After you wasted all of that time and energy on receiving your overpriced education for no real valid reason, how unfortunate for you.
Apples to Oranges
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:03pm.
"How about a comparison of wages between people with degrees? "
That would be an apple to oranges type of comparison, for not all degrees are equal. A Masters in, say, Physics, is a lot different than, say, a Masters in Liberal Arts. There will be a corresponding difference in the pay a Degree holder will experience. A Physician will always be paid more than a Teacher even though both have Masters Degrees in their individual specialty.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
How about a comparison with people who work 12 months a year?
Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 4:25pm.
And pay for their own health insurance.
Whoops
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:04pm.
Wrong place
Should have turned right
Submitted by Rukus on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 7:42am.
On Oak and 3rd, two blocks down, on the right. Can't miss it.
It's all in the way the teachers think
Submitted by cristo on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:23pm.
About two years ago I spoke to a retired teacher from New York who has also been an administrator and he told me the ideal classroom size was 14 students per teacher. In a perfect world, there also would be a translator for Spanish students assigned to each class. I said, "What if there were a Vietnamese students in the class?" "That, too," he said, "a Vietnamese translator." And as classroom sizes gets smaller, and teachers are getting paid more, student performance has crashed. If Florida, half the third graders just failed both reading and writing.
Funny thing is
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/11/2012 - 10:44pm.
Vietnamese kids do pretty well, on the whole, in school. It's a cultural thing. Their parents make them do their homework, do their summer reading, and expect the kids to behave and do well. The parents who have come here from Vietnam know what opportunity is and they teach their children to take advantage of it.
Americans who have been born into our welfare system is know a different kind of opportunity, and refuse to work.
First of all, the "here" the
Submitted by anonymousteacher1210 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:13am.
First of all, the "here" the author uses should be spelled "hear", since he's referring to the sense, not the place. Second, I used to teach 40 students in a class, but with the students' lack of control today, that would be impossible. You see, the students believe that they have the same authority that the teachers do; often they have more, since "mommy pays her salary, she has to do what you tell her." The principals often agree. I am teaching students who are the center of not only their own, but their parents' universe, so of course, they can do no wrong. They actually believe that one-half plus one-half equals.....wait for it......... ONE-HALF!!!!(1 + 1 =2, and 2 + 2 = 4, so when you reduce, it's one-half! See how easy that was?) And I'm seriously going to teach them algebra and geometry? Plus, I have parents who attack me for never assigning homework (have you NOT seen my assignment sheets? Oh, sorry, that's my fault too-- I didn't put it into your hand, I put it into Junior's, who wadded it and threw it away-- by the way, did you bother to check my website?Oh, yeah, my bad, too. Whoever's making $70,000 a year, let me know where you are, since I'm making half that and I have 15 years. Add in the fact that I haven't even had a cost of living adjustment for 4 years( but oh the food stamps have) and you know what? Wal-mart's looking pretty good about now!
Ooh a teacher troll!!
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:30am.
Fifteen years and you're only making $35k? Move to PA, where starting is about that. Otherwise do what the rest of us who are unhappy with our careers do, find a new one.
Apparently, all of the schools have dismissed.
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:34am.
It's troll season. There are more just activated accounts around here than there are new jobs created by Baracka.
Authority figure
Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 1:04pm.
"You see, the students believe that they have the same authority that the teachers do"
You're not supposed to be the student's authority figure. That's what the parents are. You're supposed to be an instructor, not a disciplinarian. Has it ever occurred to you that they just may rebel against you because you insist on being an authority figure, a substitute parent? Here's an idea: try teaching them instead of controlling them. If they refuse to learn, well, at least you tried.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
I'm looking at my 5th grade class picture
Submitted by Stop2think on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 7:17am.
64 students in one classroom (Catholic school 1970). One nun. One room. And you know what? I learned! Amazing, no? Sure, I know it was a parochial school and a different world, but I learned so much so I went on to earn an advanced degree, have a well paying job, volunteer as a medic and firefighter for the community, and one of the just 50% who actually pay federal income tax. I did all this in a class of 64 kids, no Adderall, no Ritalin, no self-esteem classes, no fear of tests, quizes, contests, and competitions (with real winners and losers!). When I lost a classmate to leukemia, I cried and grew from the experience and learned that death can come to anyone, even to a boy too young to understand. And I did it all without the aid of "grief counselors". We played on black top playgrounds with real metal sliding boards, monkey bars, swings, and other fun things that would make today's school administrator break out in a sweat. We played dodge ball with a ball that left a mark if you were too slow to move out of the way. Above all, we had fun. We grew. We prospered. We experienced life with all its unbridled joys, fears, and sadness. We were kids...and we learned.
Academia has lead the propaganda agenda for decades
Submitted by John21 on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 9:11am.
Go to any college, in any state, you will find at least 25% of the student should never got past the screening and are nowhere near ready for college level courses but this boost the colleges body and causes increase in funding private, public and federal.
Then review the curriculums for the degrees they are seeking, you will find at least 40% fluff courses which will provide no benefit for the student but will allow the staff and the college more profit.
When asked why these courses (which increase the cost of the education and waste a student’s time) are necessary you will usually receive the excuse that the student needs to have a “well rounded” education. The truth is it allows opportunities for more professors and more indoctrination it the politically correct thinking process. Compelling most students into courses that would otherwise not exist or be so underutilized be cancelled, this is academia today.
The fallacy of academia and our country is that not all student need or desire a BA or BS degree for their chosen career path but academia has convinced their parents that it is or will be mandatory. The colleges are only in it for the prestige, comfort and money and the educators need to increase the size of their egos and feel that they are indeed providing some importance in their lives.
Perhaps one reason for the increase in teachers is...
Submitted by uhohshortsonthe... on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 9:41am.
...since 1960 graduating high school seniors have gotten progressively lazier, looking for "easy" careers like teaching, or so they think. I can't tell you how many high school students I talked to from 1995-98 who planned early childhood education as their major. They had a perception of teaching as weekends, holidays and summers off, with 6 hour workdays. Those that made it through and became teachers are now probably too lazy to change careers.
Now, now folks
Submitted by chiefpayne on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 11:26am.
Obama's probably RIGHT on this one. They probably DO need a LOT more teachers NOW than they did in the 1960s.
After all, they have taught children to be rebellious (what with taking God out of schools and teaching children that life isn't precious a la abortions) and so they need more teachers to get them to sit still to learn.
Further...let's face it...they probably need more teachers to teach the subject matter as many of them OBVIOUSLY cannot understand or even agree with the material they are supposed to be teaching! So really, they probably need all the help they can get!
Asked for a comparison of earnings by college degrees
Submitted by GW on Tue, 06/12/2012 - 12:45pm.
This is for bachelor's degrees only:
http://chronicle.com/article/Median-Earnings-by-Major-and/127604/
I respect the teachers for what they do.
Submitted by The Vet on Wed, 06/13/2012 - 11:54am.
But let's face it, it ain't that difficult of a job nor is all that much training and degrees really needed. Especially for the lower grades. After all, lots of people do it on their own, homeschooling, with little in the way of degrees or training.