The British scientist in the middle of November's ClimateGate scandal says that contrary to what Al Gore and many in the media claim, the debate concerning manmade global warming is not over.
"There is still much that needs to be undertaken to reduce uncertainties, not just for the future, but for the instrumental (and especially the palaeoclimatic) past as well," Phil Jones, the former head of Britain's Climatic Research Unit told the BBC.
In a lengthy Q&A published at BBC.com Saturday, Jones also said: the recent warming trend that began in 1975 is not at all different than two other planetary warming phases since 1850; there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995, and; it is possible the Medieval Warm Period was indeed a global phenomenon thereby making the temperatures seen in the latter part of the 20th century by no means unprecedented.
Maybe most important, Jones explained what "hide the decline" in ClimateGate e-mail messages meant confirming they manipulated data (questions in bold, h/t Sonic Frog via Glenn Reynolds):
A - Do you agree that according to the global temperature record used by the IPCC, the rates of global warming from 1860-1880, 1910-1940 and 1975-1998 were identical? [...]
[T]he warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other. [...]
B - Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming
Yes, but only just. [...]
G - There is a debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was global or not. If it were to be conclusively shown that it was a global phenomenon, would you accept that this would undermine the premise that mean surface atmospheric temperatures during the latter part of the 20th Century were unprecedented?
There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not. The MWP is most clearly expressed in parts of North America, the North Atlantic and Europe and parts of Asia. For it to be global in extent the MWP would need to be seen clearly in more records from the tropical regions and the Southern Hemisphere. There are very few palaeoclimatic records for these latter two regions.
Of course, if the MWP was shown to be global in extent and as warm or warmer than today (based on an equivalent coverage over the NH and SH) then obviously the late-20th century warmth would not be unprecedented. On the other hand, if the MWP was global, but was less warm that today, then current warmth would be unprecedented.
We know from the instrumental temperature record that the two hemispheres do not always follow one another. We cannot, therefore, make the assumption that temperatures in the global average will be similar to those in the northern hemisphere.
Now comes the part of the Q&A many will find most interesting:
K - How much faith do you have - and should we have - in the Yamal tree ring data from Siberia? Should we trust the science behind the palaeoclimate record?
First, we would all accept that palaeoclimatic data are considerably less certain than the instrumental data. However, we must use what data are available in order to look at the last 1,000 years.
I believe that our current interpretation of the Yamal tree-ring data in Siberia is sound. Yamal is just one series that enters some of the millennial long reconstructions that are available.
The current interpretation of the tree-ring data is "sound." Yet, Jones earlier said (emphasis added), "There is still much that needs to be undertaken to reduce uncertainties, not just for the future, but for the instrumental (and especially the palaeoclimatic) past as well."
Q - Let's talk about the e-mails now: In the e-mails you refer to a "trick" which your critics say suggests you conspired to trick the public? You also mentioned "hiding the decline" (in temperatures). Why did you say these things?
This remark has nothing to do with any "decline" in observed instrumental temperatures. The remark referred to a well-known observation, in a particular set of tree-ring data, that I had used in a figure to represent large-scale summer temperature changes over the last 600 years.
The phrase 'hide the decline' was shorthand for providing a composite representation of long-term temperature changes made up of recent instrumental data and earlier tree-ring based evidence, where it was absolutely necessary to remove the incorrect impression given by the tree rings that temperatures between about 1960 and 1999 (when the email was written) were not rising, as our instrumental data clearly showed they were.
This "divergence" is well known in the tree-ring literature and "trick" did not refer to any intention to deceive - but rather "a convenient way of achieving something", in this case joining the earlier valid part of the tree-ring record with the recent, more reliable instrumental record.
I was justified in curtailing the tree-ring reconstruction in the mid-20th Century because these particular data were not valid after that time - an issue which was later directly discussed in the 2007 IPCC AR4 Report.
This is important, for most people still don't understand what the decline they were trying to hide was.
As Marc Sheppard wrote in December, "[T]he decline Jones so urgently sought to hide was not one of measured temperatures at all, but rather figures infinitely more important to climate alarmists -- those determined by proxy reconstructions." He continued:
Jones was working on a cover chart for a forthcoming World Meteorological Organization report [PDF], "WMO Statement on the Status of the Global Climate in 1990," when he wrote the e-mail. As the graph would incorporate one reconstruction of his own plus one each from Michael Mann and Keith Briffa, Jones was informing them that he had used the trick on Mann's series at the same 1980 cutoff as MBH98, but found it necessary to use 1960 as the cutoff on the Briffa series.
Now, Jones has admitted this to the BBC: "[It] was absolutely necessary to remove the incorrect impression given by the tree rings that temperatures between about 1960 and 1999 (when the email was written) were not rising, as our instrumental data clearly showed they were."
In simple terms, Briffa's tree-ring data showed a decline in temperatures between 1960 and 1999 that weather stations around the world disagreed with. So, Jones spliced into Briffa's data set the real "instrumental" numbers for that period thereby hiding the decline.
This should raise eyebrows for a number of reasons. First, Jones and Company gave no notification to folks receiving this data -- including the Intergovernmental Panel and Climate Change -- that Briffa's numbers included instrumental data.
But more importantly, as the tree-ring numbers deviated so demonstrably from the observed temperature data between 1960 and 1999, why should anyone believe they're accurate for any periods in the past that can't be confirmed with instrumentation?
The entire global warming myth depends on tree-ring data that was grossly errant for forty years in the last century. This makes the decline ClimateGate scientists were trying to hide FAR MORE serious than most people believe.
Moving backward in the Q&A, there was another issue addressed by the BBC readers will find interesting:
N - When scientists say "the debate on climate change is over", what exactly do they mean - and what don't they mean?
It would be supposition on my behalf to know whether all scientists who say the debate is over are saying that for the same reason. I don't believe the vast majority of climate scientists think this. This is not my view. There is still much that needs to be undertaken to reduce uncertainties, not just for the future, but for the instrumental (and especially the palaeoclimatic) past as well.
So, the scientist at the heart of the ClimateGate scandal doesn't think the debate is over.
Given what he's now confirmed about significant flaws in the tree-ring data, the only thing surprising is that he'd admit it.
Are you listening Mr. Gore?
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.
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Comments Policy
"Given what he's now
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 19:22 ET by dgv"Given what he's now confirmed about significant flaws in the tree-ring data, the only thing surprising is that he'd admit it."
Why wouldn't he admit that there were flaws? Science isn't a conspiracy to push global warming theories on the world. They are trying to get to the truth.
ROFL! ns
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 19:40 ET by Noel SheppardROFL! ns
Can you name other fields of science
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:27 ET by nwahsAfter you finish laughing, can you name other fields of science that conspire to create wrong information - perhaps thermodynamics, optics, atomic, astronomy, geology, botany? What fields of science are conspiring to fool us all, Noel? Just climatology or are there other branches of science that are conspiring against us? Is it just earth science or physics too? Chemistry? Perhaps all scientists are lying to us?
How do the black helicopters get to the climatologists but not the astronomers?
WDN- 44
nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:28 ET by Noel Sheppardnwahs,
Seems fairly obvious. Why don't you answer your own question for the class. ns
I haven't a clue
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:31 ET by nwahsHow do "they" get to climatologists while geologists, botanists, and chemists roam free?
WDN- 44
nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:35 ET by Noel Sheppardnwahs,
That seems obvious as well. :-) ns
:)
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:44 ET by nwahsI thought you were going to say grants. Biologists need grants too! and there is nothing a scientist loves more than proving other scientists wrong, especially scientist fat on grants. Do you routinely doubt discoveries in astronomy? But you do routinely doubt discoveries in climatology even though the competition to be right is just as intense as it is in astronomy or physics. That strikes me as incongruent:) But its politics!
WDN- 44
As someone with more than a passing knowledge of
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 22:50 ET by lsudolemitethe fields you mention, the primary difference is that in these disciplines hypotheses and models can be confirmed or disproven through direct observation in controlled experiments. There has not been a single empirical study proving that an increase in global CO2 levels is directly responsible for global mean temperature increases. None. Nor can there ever be, because global climate is a highly complex system coupled to a legion of other variables, and possibly chaotic (in the mathematical sense). Since we don't have the tools to place Earth's climate in a laboratory and isolate the effects of greenhouse gases, we turn to mathematical models. The problem is that there is no way to sufficiently validate the predictions they give, since they churn out mean temperatures over the course of decades and centuries in the future. And we haven't invented a time machine yet to gather the data. And upon this unbelievably shaky soil, Al Gore and countless politicians and bureaucrats want the industrial world to commit mutual economic suicide.
What makes climatology unique among other scientific fields is that it provides a singular opportunity for politicians to exert government control over the lives of the people they govern. Obama himself has said that cap and tax, which is apparently necessary to save the world, would necessarily cause utility bills to skyrocket, while not making a dent in decreasing future temperature rises. My fellow scientists aren't stupid; they know government agencies like the NSF will pour billions of $ into grants to lend legitimacy to Al Gore's little PowerPoint slide show and scare the public into giving up their economic freedom. Witness the additional billions in funding that will be going to national labs like Los Alamos, Sandia, Oak Ridge, et al (and Obama's defunding of NASA's space missions for the same purpose) to research green solutions for all humanity's ills. You won't find that kind of government incentive to fund astronomy research. It therefore follows that if global warming were completely discredited tomorrow, the gravy train for climatologists will have run off the tracks.
Smack! Dolemite puts
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 22:55 ET by HockeyKidSmack! Dolemite puts nwahs down for the count.
"Beauty is only skin deep, but liberal's to the bone." - me
Isu. Excellent! A fatal flaw
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:17 ET by celatorIsu. Excellent!
A fatal flaw in the analysis Climate Disaster advocates is that they are trying to sell a simple Deterministic Model, i.e., more CO2=climate warming. It's nonsense.
As you say, climate/weather is a example of a Complex System, self organization, where attractors are flying all over the place and variables interact with other variables in a manner not yet completely understood. Everything is connected to everything else in creating "climate", but we are not certain, always, of the emergent properties engendered, nor exactly how what causes certain emergents, and not others, to appear over time and space. We are not even completely certain how the climate system organizes itself, yet (though we know a lot, certainly).
Climate is a magnificent fractal, no?
Scoreboard:
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:28 ET by R D HelmIsudolomite: Three TD's along with three two-point conversions (27).
Nwahs: Still in the locker room contemplating the jock strap.
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
Fuzzy Math ??
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:51 ET by Miss Cheviousummmm ..not to be too picky Dave but unless you're counting dead Democratic voters in Chicago, "hanging chads" in Florida, or are seated in the Jethro Bodine Chair of Mathmatics at the University of Tennessse 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 equals something "purt near" 24 I think : )
I'm going to wait till a few more jump on
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:50 ET by nwahs:)
WDN- 44
Don't wait too much longer, nwahs, as I sense the life being...
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:51 ET by R D Helm...squeezed out of you even now.
One or two more pile on, and you are just likely to expire. :-^)
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
Not to worry
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:02 ET by nwahsI have an inhaler!
WDN- 44
One More
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 13:36 ET by Semushttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091230184221.htm
"the primary difference is
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:03 ET by dgv"the primary difference is that in these disciplines hypotheses and models can be confirmed or disproven through direct observation in controlled experiments"
This certainly isn't true of astrophysics is it? I don't claim to be an expert on anything scientific but it seems like there are all kinds of theories that aren't demonstrable but are still held as true in scientific debate.
I think the real difference is that there aren't lobbyists trying to fight advances in the astrophysics field. As soon as their expirements threaten Exxon's bottom line E=MC squared will suddenly be a liberal plot too.
Well some people ignore things
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:13 ET by nwahsLike comparative planetary climatolgy.
WDN- 44
Yes, Some People Certainly Do
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 11:48 ET by JustAl. . . like the warmmongers ignoring the ice caps on Mars receeding as they point to antarctica, or is that the fault of western industrialized nations as well?
How many government policies are being crafted around
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:57 ET by lsudolemiteastrophysical theories that claim humans are destroying the universe with, say, particle accelerator experiments or manned space flight? And how many extra billions of dollars in federal taxpayers' money are being pumped into astrophysics specifically to prove those theories? If world governments are going to enforce policies that result in massive amounts of destroyed wealth and increased taxes, I'd want to make damned sure the underlying theory is rock solid. I made no claim as to whether AGW is real; I am simply pointing out serious holes in the existing theory. When it gets to the point where pundits AND scientists are saying "the debate is over" I start to raise my eyebrows. When serious charges about data manipulation and suppression of dissent in peer-reviewed literature come to light, it makes me seriously wonder why such tactics are necessary if, indeed, the "debate is over." About 110 years ago Newtonian mechanics was "settled science" and the "debate was over". A young patent clerk by the name of Albert Einstein proposed a theory that was then considered preposterous, one that was highly counter-intuitive and shattered the foundations of Newton's Laws, called Special (later, General) Relativity. After many years and numerous experiments, Einstein was vindicated. If classical physics were as politicized today as AGW, Einstein would be vilified as a shill for the "time is not a constant"-lobby.
You scoff at "conspiracy theories", yet that is precisely what appears to have happened with leading journals in the field. I also think you fail to appreciate how easy it is for a paper to be kept from publication in a peer-reviewed journal. Usually, a paper is sent to an anonymous review board to be refereed. If the reviewers think the paper is unworthy of publishing, that's it. The author can rebut the reviewers' points and resubmit with the appropriate changes, but the process can be dragged on for many months (a former labmate of mine had a paper in review for nearly 1 1/2 years), and the panel still holds the power of refusal. If opinion is split, the editor has the final word and can refuse publication. The author can't sue the journal or take his case to the Supreme Court to force publication; that is at the sole discretion of the journal. With a political hot button topic like AGW the peer review process can be easily circumvented and corrupted, and that appears to be what happened with the East Anglia emails.
Since you see fit to trot out a few lib talking points I think it's necessary to address them:
1. The "conspiracy" theory angle. Guess what? I can find 100,000 welfare recipients at random and ask them all if the federal government should spend more money on entitlement programs and payments. I'm willing to bet I'd find 95+% of the respondents vote enthusiastically yes. Does this mean that I put all 100,000 of them in a room together and they all reached a consensus that they get a fatter check? Of course not. It means human beings respond to incentives and self-interest, and a government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on Paul's support without the need for an overt conspiracy between thousands of Paul's.
2. The evil oil companies and "lobbyists." How exactly is it that libs can get away with questioning the motives and funding of AGW skeptics, yet they in turn aren't allowed to do the same to AGW proponents who get nice NSF grants to find supporting evidence? Why is it exactly that I can't criticize Al Gore's carbon footprint heavy lifestyle while he preaches eco-doom? Or how he's made a huge fortune from said preaching (far more than he ever did in politics)? Or how he steadfastly refuses to debate ANY AGW skeptic on the issues despite multiple challenges? Tell you what. I'll stop questioning your motives if you extend the courtesy and simply talk about the science.
This certainly isn't true of
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:50 ET by jaydeee007This certainly isn't true of astrophysics is it? I don't claim to be an expert on anything scientific but it seems like there are all kinds of theories that aren't demonstrable but are still held as true in scientific debate.
Wrongo Du Maxami!
They are held as Working Hypothesis, or Working Theories until disproven. They are NOT held as True!
And I agree, you aren't an expert on anything! Except Hyperbole!
Never Forget: Climate Change is what you call Global Warming when your Global Warming Summit/Conference/Protest is Snowed Out!
The Big Difference
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 11:53 ET by JustAlThe big difference is that this is the perfect scam, those involved can make a lot of money giving speaches, like what's his name from NASA, they can also make money on carbon credits like the head climate guy at the UN, they can beat their collective socialists chests and chant "wealth redistribution is the answer" wheather it's the "global warming" of today or the "global cooling" of the '70's. These are things that do not exist in any other field of science.
It is potentially the perfect scam because if you can never prove the existance or absence of the problem you can never prove or disprove the effectivness of the imposed solutions, at least not until it is way too late and we're freezing to death.
Wow! Apparently bass-ackward shawn has had an epiphany...
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:42 ET by R D Helm...and has confessed to something most of us have suspected for some time:
He is clueless. :-^)
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
Ha!
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:54 ET by nwahsI knew that was coming. See, I'm still clairvoyant.
WDN- 44
→ nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:06 ET by Cool ArrowSo are we.
We've known since your joining it was only a matter of time before we teased out your commitment to liberal causes.
And what would that cause be?
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:17 ET by nwahsTruth?
WDN- 44
→ Proof
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:21 ET by Cool ArrowYou claim "Truth"?
What are the "Truths" of science?
Clairvoyant, nwahs?---
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:06 ET by matthewdeanRemember Inigo Montoya, nwahs.
Remember also that you stated you could take on Noel and Rush and destroy them in an open forum.
I don't think clairvoyant is a good word to use in describing yourself.
MD
nwahs would destroy Noel and Rush in an open forum?
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:21 ET by R D HelmROFLMAO!
Hell, as broke as I am, I'd still pay actual money to see that.
I would give nwahs about ninety-eight seconds of life in that enviroment - forty-four seconds if Noel is typing at his peak.
-And that is being kind. :-)
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
→ I don't know' RD
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:29 ET by Cool ArrowI'm sure nwahs has got Judy Collins singing in the background "I've looked at clouds from both sides now"
He's an amateur climatologist. Sort of like "Unca' Donald's Junior Rangers"
Amateur climatologist who can't spell dew point
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:50 ET by BlondeDue point. Do not point out that nwahs can't spell dew point.
'Tis not a Summit, but a Submit. ~ Crash on Obama's Health Care Robot Theatre
Sh*t, J. He can't even spell his name right. LOL.
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:47 ET by R D Helm-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
And yet
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:57 ET by nwahsHe still gets 5 responses to one post :) Its absolutely Rushian.The spelling nazis are lathered.
WDN- 44
thrawn spawn---
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:59 ET by matthewdeanNah. Getting "lathered" takes some work.
Finding an instance of you stepping on your tongue, or any other appendage for that matter, is quite easy.
MD
No I'm not
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 23:54 ET by nwahsWhere did you get that? You just made that up :)
WDN- 44
→ Nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:36 ET by Cool ArrowThose metaphorical "black hericopters" come flying in with loads of money, in the form of grants, to anyone who can spin a convincing yarn that AGW is real.
How many null hypotheses do you think the government is willing to fund when the big payoff is Cap and Trade?
What other Scientists? In a previous time, progressives did some pretty nasty things with Eugenics. Widely accepted as a "science" way back then. Still is today, with smashing success. Of course the progressive liberals don't like to brag about successfully killing off ONE HALF of all black babies conceived.
CA
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:35 ET by Noel SheppardCA,
So, you think there might be more money involved in getting meteorologists and climatologists to manipulate data than let's say botanists or chemists? Who'd have thought it? :-) ns
And you don't think
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:47 ET by nwahsAnd you don't think there's money in physics? The most money is being right while everyone else is wrong. If a theory is wrong their is tremendous money in proving its wrong.
WDN- 44
nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:48 ET by Noel Sheppardnwahs,
Yep. There's a lot of money in physics. And what particular branch of physics do you think exhibited an astonishing amount of corruption about three decades ago having a HUGE impact on the future of American energy policy? ns
Nuclear/atomic
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:57 ET by nwahsAtomic?
WDN- 44
Fusion.
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:51 ET by NL207Fusion.
True, but when the results
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:46 ET by jaydeee007True, but when the results were not forthcoming, and the breakthroughs were not reproducable - the money dried up.
Never Forget: Climate Change is what you call Global Warming when your Global Warming Summit/Conference/Protest is Snowed Out!
I'd say the global warming
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 10:12 ET by NL207I'd say the global warming alarmist crowd studied the recent history of NSF grants, wouldn't you?
→ Oh, really Nwahs?
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:54 ET by Cool ArrowWhere is the money in disproving AGW, if it is indeed, wrong?
Do you think the government is willing to fund all these scientists back the other direction? Really?
You know the government wouldn't, and you know companies like GE certainly won't fund it.
No, it takes a bunch of nameless, insider moles to bring down a conspiracy as lucrative as this one.
→ Yeah, that's my take
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:49 ET by Cool ArrowClimatology, like Psychology and Sociology, are fields that are more prone to interpretation than others.
There's lots of leeway for fudge-factor when there are so many variables.
Exactly!
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:58 ET by TenebrousYes. The "FUNGIBLE FIELDS" get the most $$$ and the most attention because they are the easiest to scare people with. Climatology (could anything possibly malevolent come from interpreting climate thousands of years ago based on a few samples?), Psychology (Freud), Sociology (Kinsey). Let's not even talk about fields like "Black History" or "Women's History" that reveal their biases in their own names.
And oh, about that funding? How many grants do those scientists get for poking holes in Darwin's theories?
-----
"If liberals WERE as smart as they say they are, conservatives wouldn't have to spend so much time educating them." -- me
Politics: http://Random-jumbled-thoughts.blogspot.com
→ For ant-darwinian theory?
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 22:52 ET by Cool ArrowThat's where the "trick" comes in.
If you want to disprove Darwin, you're automatically trying to break down the contrivance of "Separation of Church and State".
Application denied!
This is a big, biG, bIG, BIG day for Dr. Whiney, meteorologist
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:32 ET by SickofLibsHe goes after Mark for breakfast, and now Noel for dinner.
<burp>
Geez
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:45 ET by nwahsI'm responding to the blog, I'm not going after anyone. I just asked a few questions.
There is life outside the pasture.
WDN- 44
nwahs
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:42 ET by cajun2If memory serves me, I recall two examples of scientific fraud for political reasons. Stalins psychiatrists and Hitlers medical researchers.
Science?
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 19:49 ET by DemonhunterThey are trying to get to the truth.
Destroying the original data, inserting fudge factors, ignoring FOIA requests, and cherry picking remote temperature measuring stations are not the actions of truth seekers. They are, however, the actions of fraud artists.
If it's not the Crusades, it's the cartoons
While we are at it, let’s not forget this:
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:50 ET by needleWhile we are at it, let’s not forget this:
History of climate gets 'erased' online
More than 5,000 entries tailored to hype global-warming agenda
- Relying upon the Liberal Media for your information is like relying upon an embezzler for your portfolio management.
"Science isn't a conspiracy
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:41 ET by ckc1227"Science isn't a conspiracy to push global warming theories on the world. They are trying to get to the truth."
Riggght....that's why they dumped proxy data when it didn't show what they wanted, but kept the same proxy data when it did, lol.
People talk different
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:04 ET by 10ksnooker... when they are being interviewed by lawyers and facing prison time ...
Truth?
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 12:26 ET by KC BeachTruth = tree ring temp data interpritation does not match the real measured data from 1960-1999.
Leap of faith = tree ring data was "balls on accurate (industry term)" from the begining of time until 1960.
Thinking people have a problem with this, AWG religius followers do not.
Just think of how much money
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 19:45 ET by d1carterJust think of how much money has been spent on this unsettled science.
d1,
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 19:55 ET by R D Helm$75 billion so far. And that's just what we federal taxpayers have been screwed out of.
No telling how many more billions we have had to spend outside of taxes in increased prices/costs/fees, and God only knows whatever else that has been inpacted directly or indirectly by this hideous fraud.
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
Dave, One needs to spend money to make money
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:26 ET by upcountrywater$ 79,000,000,000.00
Nova also says these government expenditures have “created a powerful
alliance of self-serving vested interests” drawn by the prospect of
lucrative profits soon to be garnered from carbon trading. The result:
the establishment of a near-monopsony that is distorting climate science in
favor of climate alarmism.
This much money spewed out, the sun energy dieners are going full tilt to sell the Tulip carbon mania program .... nice graph eh.
At least a vase of tulips is nice to look at... however a black ingot of carbon, on the end table, not so much.
This bubble going to Pop
ucw,
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:24 ET by R D HelmLOL - So I missed it by $4 billion.
Chump change.
-Dave
Thanks, Obama.
Lol yea, equal to about 22....... F-22's
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:52 ET by upcountrywaterF-22
This bubble going to Pop
it isn't over in the US
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:11 ET by larry on LIas long as our idiot in chief is in the WH,we will still have the EPA to deal with on this and a host of other problems.
These people are all
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:29 ET by ThisnThatThese people are all idiots. See the recent "climate emergency" in Cambridge, MA, declared by the 13-member Cambridge, MA Climate Congress?
And Cambridge will advocate vegetarianism and veganism, complete with "Meatless or Vegan Mondays."
All of this is mandatory, and the "emergency" will last indefinitely.
__________
"He [obama] got the best press known to man" - Tina Brown. "In the entire universe" - Howard Kurtz
"There is much debate over
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 20:30 ET by ckc1227"There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not."
Not sure why that matters......the current so-called global warming isn't global in extent either.
Chalk up another "I told you so"
Sat, 02/13/2010 - 21:25 ET by dboA - Do you agree that according to the global temperature record
used by the IPCC, the rates of global warming from 1860-1880, 1910-1940
and 1975-1998 were identical? [...]
[T]he warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other. [...]
It's amazing how getting caught with your hands in the cookie jar has this way of changing the things you say. This is a major concession by Jones and a game changer in the AGW debate. Jones was Lead Author of chapter 3 in IPCC AR 4 and said :
The rate of warming over the last 50
years is almost double that over the last 100 years (0.13°C
± 0.03°C vs. 0.07°C ± 0.02°C per decade).
Thanks for coming out Phil. Maybe you should completely come home from the dark side and write a tell-all book. You could probably use the extra income as I have this feeling your grant money is heading in the same diredtion as your credibility.
I applaud You Mr Jones
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:12 ET by Chattychitofor admitting the truth. it takes a lot to admit one has lied and it is refreshing to see that people still have consciences unlike his friend Mann.
Those "magic tree rings" redux
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:13 ET by metaphorsbwithuYES!
This is what so many of us have been screaming about for years. After revelations of the ClimateGate scandal emerged, no one in the mainstream media ever explained what Mann's "trick" was designed to do - just repeated the leftist talking point about it being innocent "shop talk" we lay persons wouldn't understand.
It was all so clear! I've commented on this here and elsewhere myself over and over.
If the tree ring data did not correlate to post 1960 temperature data, what makes you think they correlated to actal temperature data over the past 1000 years!
This is good news. But will the msm report it, and will Congress finally begin to investigate this fraud seriously before Obama and the EPA dictate the transfer of still more billions (even trillions) of our money for this scam?
metaphorsbwithu
This is just plain silly!
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:30 ET by jon_torlinIt's funny how these alarmists STILL contend CO2 is the enemy that's the apparent "cause" here, and yet, it's STILL 0.033% of the TOTAL COMPOSITION of the Earth's ATMOSPHERE which is called AIR (I'm bolding this for those who don't get it)
For God's sake, there's more ARGON(0.93%) in the air than there is Carbon Dioxide and yet these charlatans, these fools, these outright idiots have had ALL YOU SUCKERS fooled into thinking that CO2, the very thing that plants need to complete PHOTOSYNTHESIS is the bad guy, the boogeyman, the great satan(after the US, no less!) is the great killer that's going to send Category 5 hurricanes to every coast line in the world!
If you still believe that, YOU PEOPLE ARE ABSOLUTE UTTER MORONS!
Do the plants and this planet a favor and stop this climate change/global warming nonsense!\
Oh yeah, Happy Valentine's Day!
-Jon
So...
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:32 ET by dgvAll the science that has been done on the subject is all nonsense because you say so? I'm no expert and I am guessing you aren't either, so how can you talk about it in such definant terms?
Open your eyes, for crying
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 02:12 ET by NL207Open your eyes, for crying out loud!
Dr. Phil Jones, of Jones & Wigley fame, has in the interview quoted above, fundamentally contradicted the position he took as a lead author of the IPCC 4AR. Both of his statements cannot be true. He has also admitted to abetting unethical research practices in connection with 'hide the decline'.
How much scientific fraud needs be exposed before your kind will begin to seriously question these pronouncements of doom coming from the athropogenic global warming crowd?
How 'bout some REAL
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:37 ET by jaydeee007How 'bout some REAL scientists saying it ain't so.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1002/1002.0597.pdf
These are posted above, but they denounce the whole CO2 myth for what it is. And don't even try to convince me that the laws of physics don't apply to Climate.
Never Forget: Climate Change is what you call Global Warming when your Global Warming Summit/Conference/Protest is Snowed Out!
Say again?
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 00:35 ET by CobraMan"There are very few palaeoclimatic records for these latter two regions."
The Medieval Warm period wasn't that long ago and the people do have records of things like crop planting and harvesting, seasonal variations, population counts, and the like in South America, records they been keeping for several thousand years (the Mayans were good record keepers) so what this nonsense about "palaeoclimatic records"?" If they really want to know, the data is there for the asking.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court
yeah
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 05:37 ET by Chattychitoaren't they called Almanac's. if you can find farmers almanac's these are things that farmers would keep tract of for future use.
Phil Jones
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 02:00 ET by acumenPhil Jones....takes one for the 'team'.
acumen... Nothing like
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 02:05 ET by bigtimeracumen...
Nothing like 'good buddies' eh?
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
Open My Eyes?
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 02:31 ET by dgvTo an overwhelming amount of scientists who say that global warming is real? I'm sorry but I don't believe in any kind of conspiracy happening here. If the science is bunk, than other scientists would be reveling in disproving it.
dgv... Huh? If...If...the
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 02:39 ET by bigtimerdgv...
Huh? If...If...the science is bunk?
...or are you agreeing that GW is BS?
Can't really tell for sure what you mean..hope you understand...make it plain for me....I'm a simple gal, just ask around. ;-)
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
You really need to open your eyes
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 03:34 ET by jaydeee007You obviously look only upon the MSM for your information.
If you had your eyes open and were looking you'd know that there is a plethora of scientists who are, and have been disproving the whole AGW myth. But Jones, Mann, et. al. have been exposed as having not only suppressing the work of those scientists, but in ruining the editors of publications that let their work see the light of day.
Keep in mind that conspiracy requires only 3 people in order to be taking place. The failure of CBS, NBC, ABC, to acknowledge what is actually happening with this entire scandle is Media Malpractice at its worst.
So OPEN your eyes
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1002/1002.0597.pdf
And read the two Scientific studies above.
Never Forget: Climate Change is what you call Global Warming when your Global Warming Summit/Conference/Protest is Snowed Out!
Hello dgv, Al Gore dismisses skeptics as flat earthers and...
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 11:38 ET by Mitch NJ"deniers", claiming that the debate on "man made global warming" is now "settled science".
When did Al Gore engage in this debate?
Seems to me, when someone is confident in their belief and has the proof to back up their position, they would welcome more debate, not less.
More damning than temperature data is the computer code. ACA
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 08:29 ET by acaiguanaThe most damning evidence of manipulation is in the comment sections of the computer code for their models.
For example, in one segment the programmer complains that he had to 'hack' through the code to change the manipulation of data to achieve the result desired. At one point stating that he didn't have the skill set required to write the code for the model.
There are numerious instances in the hacked code that was released on the Internet where programmers were obviously destroying the model integrity by writing gross manipulative mathmatic formula into the code to 'smooth' and to reverse the outputs from the original data processing.
This has not been widely reported as it is a bit esoteric for the average reader. Emails that clearly show a predisposition of data manipulation are so much easier to understand.
But if one realizes that the 'models' have been the foundational basis for the outrageous claims to support political agendas and public policy, the contamination of the model itself is more relevant than intent.
I write computer models (design and implement) in a variety of fields; none are capable of actually aping the real world.
There are too many variables to consider, even if one was capable of considering all the variables. Assumptions have to be made, MANY assumptions or their defense are not documented.
The actual design of any model should clearly delineate all the assumptions behind the model and explain each one with justification. That would include some weighing of their validity.
For example, I assume that future behavior will always reflect past behavior in these instances. 1. (instance) 2. (instance) - etc.
But future behavior does not always reflect such past behavior in all instances.
I digress; but the point is that a computer is severely limited when it comes to modeling anything.
For example, if I were to model a car dealership (a business that has clearly defined behaviors, goals and components) I could never factor in the extraneous behaviors of the most important element for inputs, such as the economic response of customers to conditions beyond the dealership's control.
So, if you think about it, it would be nearly impossible to model such a thing as making breakfast each day for one week. You can plan it; but I assert one of those breakfasts will fall short of the plan or exceed the plan.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
When is this going to happen?
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 10:41 ET by pbthinkerIt wasn't that long ago, we had people advocating taking away certification from meteorologists who didn't believe in AGW. It wasn't too long ago the we had Congressmen wanting to have criminal trials for people that were actually disagreeing with the "accepted science" on AGW. Suddenly, the words started to change from "global warming" to "climate change".
So, Noel, my question is, "When are we going to hold these people accountable?" We had Congressmen who treated scientists, who dared to disagree with AGW theory, with disrespect, accusing them of being on the payroll of Exxon/Mobil. It's time to force these people to apologize, reverse some of the legislation that came to fore from the faulty science, and fund research to put this myth to rest.
Election 2008-God's way of showing us that elections count.
So now will
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 12:03 ET by 10ksnookerOur liar in chief restore science to it's rightful place?
A "trick" is not a deception, even if the "achievement" is a LIE
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 12:21 ET by valiant defender" . . . and 'trick' did not refer to any intention to deceive - but rather 'a convenient way of achieving something', . . ."
ARE.
YOU.
KIDDING.
ME??!!
So . . . using this INSANE logic, Bernie Madoff should be released from prison IMMEDIATELY.
valiant defender
" . . . and in ALL your getting, get UNDERSTANDING"
If the "settled science"
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 21:41 ET by samhermanmdIf the "settled science" argument were to be followed to its natural endpoint, medicine would not have advanced beyond the 18th century. Serious diseases would still be treated by bleeding to "balance the humors" causing them, and lifespans would still be hovering in the fourth to fifth decades. There would be no anesthesia except for alcohol, and no treatments would be available for cancer except surgery. All of these discoveries were made because the scientists refused to accept the status quo--and that meant not accepting the commonly accepted beliefs at the time.
I put my stock in the scientific method, because it has produced so many important discoveries in my own profession that I could not imagine life without the inherent skepticism and doubt that is the heart of science.
I agree 100%
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 21:49 ET by nwahsI could not imagine life without the inherent skepticism and doubt that is the heart of science
You are outside the pasture.
WDN- 44
And you are off the beam.
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 10:30 ET by samhermanmdAnd you are off the beam.
"The entire global warming
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 07:09 ET by troglodyt"The entire global warming myth depends on tree-ring data that was grossly errant for forty years in the last century."
Mr. Sheppard: would you please elaborate on where you got that errant idea?
→ Troglodyt
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 08:44 ET by Cool ArrowFrom a tree ring circus
Can't see the tree-ring data through the trees
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 10:41 ET by dboDenier.
Nowhere in the quite biased
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 12:12 ET by troglodytNowhere in the quite biased source you have linked is it mentioned, that the entire AGW theory rests on tree-ring data.
That link does not simply
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 12:25 ET by NL207That link does not simply destroy the credibility of the dendrochronological proxies as a reliable paleoclimate reconstruction tool, at least as interpretted by the researchers in question. It destroys all claims to objectivity and healthy scientific skepticism on the part of the researchers involved.
How much damage has this done to the theory of AGW? I think it is huge, simply huge. We need only look at the names involved. Mann, Bradley, Hughes, Jones [and by implication Wigley], Briffa, and Trenberth are all directly compromised. The email trails lead back to other prominent warmers as well. These include Overpeck, Holdren [yes, as in Obama's Science Czar], and Schmitt. If teh scientific opinions of this group of individuals are prejudiced, then so to are all the results this group is connected with.
Challenge to Trog: Show me a promouinent global warming paper in the peer-reviewed literature that was not co-authored or sponsored by one of these individuals. It can be done, but I want you to see just how broad the reach of these few leaders is.
"That link does not simply
Tue, 02/16/2010 - 08:08 ET by troglodyt"That link does not simply destroy the credibility of the
dendrochronological proxies as a reliable paleoclimate reconstruction
tool, at least as interpretted by the researchers in question."
If the credibility of dendrochronological proxies is completely destroyed, why then is the author of the aforementioned article using the same proxies to proof that the MWP was warmer then all the scientists mentioned above think it was?
Time to move on to the next manufactured scare
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 16:27 ET by dboSurely you're not that ignorant. IPCC TAR was released with much fanfare with the graph of the tree ring proxies in the background and the iconic statement
They go on ad infinitum how this was proof (they use the term "evidence") of unusual warming and yet we've seen by the warmists own admission that tree-ring proxies don't even corelate with modern day temperatures.
Speaking of unusual warming, I'm sure you recall this thread back in November when you refused to admit that late 20th century warming was consistent with other previous warming trends. I even linked Gatekeeper Phil Jones own graphs to prove the point. You left the thread open ended and never answered a couple of questions. Now Phil has come out and indeed said
This, of course, completely contradicts what Jones said in IPCC AR 4. Please, no need to rush your apology. I don't want to embarrass you further.
"Speaking of unusual
Tue, 02/16/2010 - 08:33 ET by troglodyt"Speaking of unusual warming, I'm sure you recall this thread back in November when you refused to admit that late 20th century warming was consistent with other previous warming trends."
If by consistent you mean similar I wasn't argueing about that. What I was argueing against was your opinion, that because there were similar trends, they had the same cause (i.e. nature).
"Please, no need to rush your apology. I don't want to embarrass you further."
You don't embarrass me at all. But if you want to discuss this matter seriously I'd suggest you better learn what the statistical concepts involved actually mean.
Change is Good!
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 08:36 ET by CrashI saw a google link ad, "How to fight global climate change".
I immediately thought, "I know ... hire a team of 'scientists' and have them falsify data that satisfies an intergovernmental panel of despots who hate the west!"
For all of you investigative types how many times has Jones gone on record stating that climate science is sound and chanted the we need to act now garbage? After all, he is one of Man-bear-pigs consensutists.
phil jones couldn't have faked that chart
Mon, 02/15/2010 - 11:38 ET by lunaticcringeradiophil jones couldn't have faked that chart any more unless he rode in the back of a flatbed truck with no shocks over railroad tracks when he was drawing it.
lunaticcringeradio