Mortality Socialism: We Should All Live Exactly The Same Number of Years

Photo of Noel Sheppard.
By Noel Sheppard | March 25, 2008 - 15:00 ET

In today's "The Heck With Equal Opportunity, We Want Equal Outcome" segment, the New York Times on Sunday accidentally introduced a new concept to readers: mortality socialism.

For those unfamiliar -- please count me amongst this woefully ignorant group until a few minutes ago!!! -- the Times feels that something has to be done to make sure that everybody's life expectancies are exactly the same regardless of income, wealth, or lifestyle.

I wonder if that's what Robin Hood had in mind all along.

While you ponder, please extinguish all cigarettes, fasten your seatbelts, and prepare yourself for one of the most inane gripes ever published at a major American newspaper (emphasis added, h/t Moonbattery via NBer Roger the Shrubber):

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New government research has found "large and growing" disparities in life expectancy for richer and poorer Americans, paralleling the growth of income inequality in the last two decades.

Life expectancy for the nation as a whole has increased, the researchers said, but affluent people have experienced greater gains, and this, in turn, has caused a widening gap. [...]

The gaps have been increasing despite efforts by the federal government to reduce them. One of the top goals of "Healthy People 2010," an official statement of national health objectives issued in 2000, is to "eliminate health disparities among different segments of the population," including higher- and lower-income groups and people of different racial and ethnic background.

Let's reiterate a key point before proceeding: life expectancies have INCREASED for all demographic groups. That's something that should be applauded, right? Isn't that good news?

Apparently not:

In 1980-82, Dr. [Gopal K. Singh, a demographer at the Department of Health and Human Services] said, people in the most affluent group could expect to live 2.8 years longer than people in the most deprived group (75.8 versus 73 years). By 1998-2000, the difference in life expectancy had increased to 4.5 years (79.2 versus 74.7 years), and it continues to grow, he said.

And, this is bad or surprising why? We've seen absolutely astounding advancements in medical technology in the past three decades. Many procedures when they first are developed are not necessarily covered by insurance, and, therefore, initially only benefit those that can afford them.

Yet, as the Times elaborated well into this article, there are other reasons for this disparity in life expectancy:

  • Smoking has declined more rapidly among people with greater education and income.
  • Lower-income people are more likely to live in unsafe neighborhoods, to engage in risky or unhealthy behavior and to eat unhealthy food.

Here are some other reasons cited:

  • Some health economists contend that the disparities between rich and poor inevitably widen as doctors make gains in treating the major causes of death.
  • Robert E. Moffit, director of the Center for Health Policy Studies at the conservative Heritage Foundation, said one reason for the growing disparities might be "a very significant gap in health literacy" - what people know about diet, exercise and healthy lifestyles. Middle-class and upper-income people have greater access to the huge amounts of health information on the Internet, Mr. Moffit said.
  • Thomas P. Miller, a health economist at the American Enterprise Institute, agreed..."People with more education tend to have a longer time horizon," Mr. Miller said. "They are more likely to look at the long-term consequences of their health behavior. They are more assertive in seeking out treatments and more likely to adhere to treatment advice from physicians."
  • A recent study by Ellen R. Meara, a health economist at Harvard Medical School, found that in the 1980s and 1990s, "virtually all gains in life expectancy occurred among highly educated groups."...Trends in smoking explain a large part of the widening gap, she said in an article this month in the journal Health Affairs.
  • Under federal law, officials must publish an annual report tracking health disparities. In the fifth annual report, issued this month, the Bush administration said, "Over all, disparities in quality and access for minority groups and poor populations have not been reduced" since the first report, in 2003...The rate of new AIDS cases is still 10 times as high among blacks as among whites, it said, and the proportion of black children hospitalized for asthma is almost four times the rate for white children.
  • The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported last month that heart attack survivors with higher levels of education and income were much more likely to receive cardiac rehabilitation care, which lowers the risk of future heart problems. Likewise, it said, the odds of receiving tests for colon cancer increase with a person's education and income.

Of course, none of this matters if the goal is equal outcome, correct?

In the end, I guess the folks at the Times would be happier if people like me started smoking, began having random acts of unprotected sex with strangers, stopped exercising, began eating junk food, and stopped getting routine physicals.

Now that's the ticket!

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.

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How many ways can the NYT point out McCain is too old :)

I have blogged about the Eskimo Syndrome here.

http://imustimes.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/matt-taibbi-when-doves-cry/

In England, Equal Care Does Not Mean Equal Outcome

Several years ago I read an essay, possibly in Forbes, about a long term health study done on English government employees.

All of them had exactly the same medical coverage.

But, when the employees were divided into groups based on pay scale, overall health and longevity was highest for the best paid and was lowest for the lowest paid.

The author made the politically incorrect conclusion that there was a correlation between intelligence, high pay, and good health, which might explain why I've never seen this study referenced any place else. 

Well, it's obvious what we

Well, it's obvious what we have to do. Just like if you can't make the poor richer, you make the rich poorer, if you can't make the poor live longer, you "early exit" some rich people to make it even.

No one should get to live longer, just because they have more money. Or are more educated. Let's put a cap on education too while we're at it. After all, if people are less likely to smoke, the more educated they are, well, that's just another unfair advantage! Make 'em quit school or take up smoking!

Oh, and we have to give more white kids AIDS and asthma.

An even better idea: we pick a target age and everyone on that birthday goes to "Carousel" for "Renewal."

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Just as long as Farrah is in

Just as long as Farrah is in the mix.  It seems to me taht the school system teaches or tries to teach what good habits in life help you live longer.  But, like anything else you can lead the libearl to the facts but you cant make him think. 

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

DTM2

 She recently battled cancer.  Check out her site. I imagine you'll enjoy it.

 http://www.farrahfawcett.us/

 

When you men get home and face an anti-war protestor, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she’s dating a pussy… ~ Attributed to General Tommy Franks

A "Logan's Run" gag!

I loved it; and it's not too far from the inevitable outcome. But should it be 21 like the book, or 30 like the movie? Make room, make room.

mb -

Great minds!

"Logan's Run" was the first thing I thought of when I glanced at this story ...

Kudoes!

 

When you men get home and face an anti-war protestor, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she’s dating a pussy… ~ Attributed to General Tommy Franks

Why stop there?

I think it's unfair that some people live with illness and others don't. Every healthy person should be given cancer, heart disease, etc. so that no one feels left out.

 And if I should crash my motorcycle and crack open my head, the government had better send someone out into every neighborhood with a hammer, 'cuz I don't want to be the only one suffering. 

Do we

have to start giving out computers like we do condoms so that everyone can get on the internet and live longer? Will we have to pay for the monthly ISP provider also?

 

"In the end, I guess the folks at the Times would be happier if people like me started smoking, began having random acts of unprotected sex with strangers, stopped exercising, began eating junk food, and stopped getting routine physicals."

Except for the smoking, random acts of sex and routine physicals...I resemble that remark! 

 

Shame on you, voodoo!! How

Shame on you, voodoo!! How DARE you take care of yourself when other people are getting sick? You stop that right now!

"How DARE you take care of

"How DARE you take care of yourself when other people are getting sick"

 Personal Responsibilty ......got to love it.  

So now it's the rich white man's fault that the poor are fat and unhealthy and die sooner.   

and instead of trying to get the poor to better themselves get a better education, get a better if not just a job, we need to govt to penalize the succesful people so the poor don't feel left out.

WHAT IN THE PHUCK BASS AKWARDS WAY OF THINKING IS THIS .......JESUS CHRIST

 

 

I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist

I suspect socialized medicine will correct this "disparity."

As we all know, if the left ever get its plan for socialized medicine in place, it will soon lead to the rationing of health care resources. It has everywhere else.

Not only will the elderly be left out in the cold (as it will only be "fair" to expend limited resources only on those who still have a long time to live and, more importantly, work), but among the elderly I am guessing the "less fortunate" will get the bulk of whatever meager resources that might be afforded that age group.

I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, the average life expectancy falls short of the eligibility age for collecting Social Security by about a week. Let's be honest here, the last thing the government wants is for you to live long enough to collect SS benefits.

And no, I am not kidding.

Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!

Not to get too off topic,

Not to get too off topic, but this reminds me of a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode that dealt with an alien world, that when you reach age 60, had ritualistic suicide for its population regardless of how healthly the person. Anyone else remember this episode?

This just reinforced my perception of how socialistic Gene Roddenberry and the world of Star Trek was, and that I only wanted to continue to watch it just for the babes (i.e., green Orion slave women), tech, and the special effects.

 

Start each day with a smile, then get it over with. - W.C. Fields

Logan's Run

 

Yes, but the more popular version of this was the movie "Logan's Run", as referenced by Motherbelt above.

You already do.

How many folks on financial aid do you see running around with cell phones, two cars, big screen tvs, computers, and internet? It frustrates me to no end to see these people who choose not to work get this much aid. Welfare should be distributed when some one has nothing left but their primary residence and maybe their personal vehicle. All other assets must be sold. That's my view of reform anyway.

This was supposed to be a reply to Voodoodaddy, but came out as a new comment.

Could it be?

Could it be that the "discrepancy" between the two demographic groups is due entirely to the reliance by the poorest citizens on government supplied medical funding and treatment requirements via Medicare and Medicaid? Inquiring minds want to know!

I have one suggestion.

I have one suggestion.

"the odds of receiving tests for colon cancer increase with a person's education and income."

My suggestion is that we appoint all lower income people as NY Times reporters-at-large. Then they would have a point of view that would make having a colonoscopy unnecessary.

 A possible exchange between a reporter-at-large and his doctor.

RAL: "Doc, I see something that has an uncanny resemblence to Keith Olbermann."

Doc: "That must be a polyp.  I'll send a lazer up there and burn that sucker out!" 

“There’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they
made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group.” -Obama (talking about Imus)


"Oh, rrrreaaaalllllyyyyy!!!!!!! -RhB

The poor don't need colonoscopies

 "the odds of receiving tests for colon cancer increase with a person's education and income."

 

Their heads are already up there. 

Being poor in America is a choice not a condition.

 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985

this liberal stupidity gives me a headache...

 

It just goes to show Orwell wasn't wrong...

I Told You So

The gaps have been increasing despite efforts by the federal government to reduce them.

Milton Friedman could not have said it better himself. How many times do you see goverment programs that have opposite results of their good intentions?

modern house calls

A difference of 3 to 4 years is insignificant. For the white collar generation now passing, the old timers are generally reaching 80 while the people that smoked and drank (then gave it up for health reasons) are making it to the mid 70's. The folks with the good genes are pushing 90. I don't think 4, 5 or 7 years is particulary significant and certainly not a good excuse to alter policy. I understand Doctors are now questioning patients to see if they can afford major medical treatments. If true, both actions reveal a pill they hope we swallow. There are also Regional differences in health habits in spite of the homoginization of America. WA State is a good example of trendy health consciousness.

After watching what's been

After watching what's been happening in the schools. If some schools are better. The approach isn't to raise the level of the under performing schools; rather it's to dumb down the better schools.

This will be the approach.

My dad's 94. (It seems to be a genetic trait in my family.) Which of these caring people will tell him he's lived too long? Are they going to demand he die?

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

look for the path of least

look for the path of least resistance.

whats easier, making the piece of sh!t schools strive to be better or just lowering the bar so all schools are equal?

 all this sickens me

 

I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist

Nowhere in that article

Nowhere in that article does the Times suggest that health disparities should be eliminated by decreasing the life expectancies of rich, educated white people. That's just the way you want to read it so that you can feel indignant and make snarky comments about socialism!

What the people researching this phenomenon would like to do is increase the life expectancy of demographic groups lagging behind. So which tactics, exactly, would you object to? Increasing education about the hazards of smoking? Lowering crime in poor neighborhoods? Increasing health literacy across socioeconomic groups? Increasing access to cutting edge medical technology? Perhaps you think it's a good thing that doctors apparently find black people less suitable candidates for surgeries and offer them less aggressive medical treatments, or that black children suffer from asthma.

Of course you don't! There's no reason to object to the idea that we should all have the same chances of living a long and healthy life. No one can guarantee the same lifespan-- in any demographic group there will be wide variation in how long individual people live. But when you see demographic patterns on lower lifespan on average, then it suggests that there is some disadvantage suffered by people because of a demographic they belong to, whether it be race, weath, or education level. Why not try to improve their chances? Except, of course, that such happy sentiments don't leave as much room for clever insults against liberals :)

hilarious

Increasing access to cutting edge medical technology = getting the government to pay for it

Seriously. There's nothing clever in your post at all. Kinda snarky, but not clever.

CP

CP,

Why did you feel it necessary to make this a race issue? Although race is addressed in the NYT article, this was done only statistically. Yet, you make this an issue concerning "rich, educated white people" while suggesting "[I] think it's a good thing that doctors apparently find black people less suitable candidates for surgeries and offer them less aggressive medical treatments, or that black children suffer from asthma."

I would love to discuss this matter with you in greater detail. However, I find your insinuations offensive and insulting.

Next time you want to have a serious discussion with me, try doing it without implying I'm racist -- or don't try at all. Have a good day. ns

Noel, note that in the very

Noel, note that in the very next paragraph, CP says "Of course you don't." I don't know about you, but I didn't read it as sarcasm, but as the tail end of a reductio ad absurdum argument. In other words, she was not accusing you of racism at all.

Cleverpig makes perfectly reasonable points. Why shouldn't the Times publish such an article? You are all acting as if this was simply written for propagandistic purposes. Believe it or not, universal healthcare is not a warhorse that every liberal outlet is willing to fight and die for. Did it ever occur to any of you that the author simply wanted to convey to those lower-middle class people some of the eminently preventable causes of their statistically lower life expectancy.

"Rich, educated white

"Rich, educated white people" was my attempt to include the three demographic factors discussed in the article: weath, education level, and race. I'm not sure how you read that and think that I am only talking about race and not the other two adjectives.

And I was indeed setting up a ridiculous statement that you couldn't possibly agree with in order to make the point that objecting to the principles discussed in the article means objecting to some eminently reasonable things. Nowhere did I say or imply that you are racist.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

CP

CP,

Cool. I obviously missed the sarcasm, a failing of this medium.

So I don't appear redundant, please refer to my comments to JasonC. I honestly believe this issue to be more one of lifestyle choice than income disparity, although I think those at the top of the ladder will ALWAYS live longer.

However, if those at the bottom stopped smoking cigarettes, stopped taking drugs, stopped drinking as much alcohol, and stopped having unprotected sex, I think their life expectancies would rise DRAMATICALLY without government assistance or a redistribution of wealth.

Serious question: if folks aren't going to demonstrate some responsibility for their own health, why should those who do be financially penalized? That's why this represents mortality socialism, for the solution is always to tax those at the top to level the playing field.

Why not require the unhealthy masses to alter their lifestyles before financially penalizing those that already have?!?

I'm sorry, but aside from genetics, there really are a lot of things we can control concerning our health that have absolutely nothing to do with income. NOTHING!!! ns

So I guess the government

So I guess the government will form a sandmen agency. ie Logan's Run.

Would this right to the

Would this right to the same life expectancy extend to unborn children? 

*****

"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will 

Thought this might be interesting...

Something I wanted to post more on the “equality” issue than the age issue, but still an interesting product of Hollywood’s leftist tilt…

There is a short story by Kurt Vonnegut called Harrison Bergeron. It’s been years since I read it, but the story tells of a future where being ‘better’ or ‘having more’ is wrong. If you have better vision, you wear glasses to ‘correct’ your eyesight to the norm. Too athletic? Weights to slow you down so you can’t run as fast, jump as high, or dance as well. Even physical attractiveness was regulated to be average, maybe with hair products to dull your hair or false teeth if they’re too straight. It was only mildly a good read until the end. A dancer’s weights begin to fall off and Harrison witnesses what it is to be able to achieve greatness if only you are able to use the talents you have, but the ‘enforcers’ gun down the dancer for shedding his normalness. That’s when he realizes the enforcer is a rather short, unattractive, inathletic woman with no ‘equalizers’. The enforcers set the standards based on their own ‘averageness’.

So, here we have a story about elitists wanting no one to be better than they are or have more.

Now for Hollywood’s version: From the IMDb “After a second civil war, America's leaders have realised that war is idealistic, so they look to an age where ideology was at its lowest point. The golden age of mass consumerism - the 1950s. Children are taught at school to achieve mediocrity, grade C is best, grade A is very bad. Adults are force fed tv with no stimulating content, and strive to buy the newest durable product they see advertised. All brain patterns are controlled by thought suppressing headbands.”

Gee, let’s take a tale about socialism - economic, social, and physical – and change it to a story that trashes the 50’s and consumerism/capitalism, and calls the government warmongering censors. Hmmm…. Way to go, Hollywood. Nope, no bias here…

Sorry Noel, but I think

Sorry Noel, but I think "whining" is entirely the wrong verb to be used here. The article points out some reasons for this "phenomenon" which might not be as stupefyingly obvious as, say, "People with more money can afford better healthcare." The  statistic that people with more money tend to quit smoking in greater proportion, for instance, is extremely interesting, and not what one might expect considering the expense of maintaining that habit. That's very interesting. 

This story functions, for me at least, as a socioeconomic overview which, as you even point out, makes plenty of reference to narrowing the gap. It seems, if anything, to present a critique of certain behaviors that are apparently associated with lower-income people (whether statistically or in popular imagination or both). So I have to ask, where do you see this story angling for a political platform? Where is the Times using this to advocate for universal healthcare, other than in the paranoid imaginations of anti-socialized medicine conservatives?  Where does the Times use the phrase or advocate for "Equal Outcome"?  What is the bias? Do you really see one, or is it simply mandatory for NB to vilify any NYT story about class differences?

Sorry Noel, but if anyone's whining here, it's you and the NB posters who have replied thus far.

JC

JC,

First, show me where the word "whining" appears in this article. Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

That asked, if the idea that a greater percentage of poor people than rich people smoke cigarettes is new to you, you have little insight to offer me concerning this subject. :-)

Let's take this a step further, shall we? In this article, did the author identify what was considered poor and rich? No. The only thing close was "people in the most affluent group could expect to live 2.8 years longer than people in the most deprived group."

What does this mean? If the most deprived are under the poverty line, are the most affluent represented by an equal percentage of the population? Let's assume we're talking ten percent. Are you surprised that the top ten percent of wage-earners in this country live longer than the bottom ten percent? Think that's newsworthy, or just designed to evoke class envy? Also, unless we INDEED were a socialist nation where EVERYONE got the same healthcare, how could we ever achieve similar life expectancies in these demographic groups. IT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!

Furthermore, why discuss this in terms of income when many of the health discrepancies pointed out in the piece are indeed due to lifestyle choices AND NOT wealth or status. In fact, likely the largest discrepancies are cigarette smoking, drug and alcohol abuse, and AIDS which are ALL LESS prevalent at the top end of the wage scale NOT because of wages but because of lifestyle choices.

As such, if we REALLY want to extend life expectancies in our nation RATHER than just creating more class envy, why don't we do more to get poor people to behave like rich people?

For instance: Stop Smoking Cigarettes, Stop Taking Drugs, Stop Drinking Alcohol, and Stop Having Unprotected Sex.

How much do you think achieving those four things will help the poor without pointing fingers at the rich?

Oh, and BTW: Could you please show me where the word "whining" appears in my piece? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top? :-) ns

 

Noel, since there's sugar

Noel, since there's sugar on top, allow me to explain that Newsbusters has a new format feature in which, regardless of where you are in the site, there is a hyperlink to the latest or "hottest" article. The text of the link gives a pithy summary of the article itself. The summary for yours was "Rich Live Longer, NYT Whines." It occurs to me now that this was likely an editorial move, and not an authorial one, so I do apologize for attributing that particular verb to you. I was surprised, as it struck me as more aligned with Huston's bombastic style than your usual even-keeled approach. At any rate, that's why I said it.

Everything that you say, ostensibly in argumentation with my post, makes perfect sense. I agree with all of it. But your premise seems to be that you are engaging with some fundamental claims made by the NYT. Indeed, if the poor would simply behave like the rich in the ways you suggest, the problem would be far less dire. Even if the Times hasn't cited their exact socio-economic criteria, I see no feasible way of reading this as having a particular political goal; unless, of course, the reader is simply predisposed to reading Times articles as polemics of class envy and UHC.

 

JC

JC,

No. Because the entire premise of this piece is that the disparities are caused by income differentials. Certainly, the article refers to the more practical explanations, but all couched in the typical class envy nonsense of how unfair it is that rich people have a better life.

Frankly, I'm tired of it. I believe there are reasons that I have more than most, and earn more than most. It has to do with my work ethic. I work probably 100 hours a week. Most upper-income people I know do as well. This is what makes them more successful than most.

Do you think most poor people work 100 hours a week? The average work week today, believe it or not, is 33.8 hours. This used to be 38.7 hours in 1964, meaning that people are working far less now than five decades ago!!!

So, if I am willing to work three times as many hours as most, while also living a healthier life, shouldn't I be allowed to make more money than most and live longer than most?

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of this class envy nonsense, for I believe we all have the same opportunities for success, and those that don't achieve it are just as responsible for their financial and health failures as those that do. And, I'm tired of being told that I -- who work three times as many hours as the average person and am making adaptive lifestyle choices -- should give more to those that work FAR less, and make maladaptive lifestyle choices.

As I began the article, the left aren't interest in equal opportunity, for that clearly exists. They want equal outcome, which means those like me willing to work harder need to give more of our money to those that don't.

What a crock!!! ns

I think you're reading into

I think you're reading into it this notion that the Times is claiming its "unfair."  Especially since it goes out of its way to cite basic behavioral habits associated with the lower/lower-middle class, habits which only personal gumption and responsibility will change.  Your post here, again, while it is all true, simultaneously denounces Marxist class warfare, yet engages in what might charitably be called "Reverse Class Warfare," which essentially states (and no, I'm not quoting you): "Well, because I work hard and have reaped the benefits, everyone else should be able to as well, and anyone who characterizes class difference as anything other than a bifurcation of those who work hard and those who don't is just indulging class envy."

This ignores a plenitude of basic economic realities.  People receive benefits and paychecks based on what their labors contribute and the specialization of their ability to perform those labors, not on the sheer physical output of labor.  That's a fancy way of saying, a guy who works double-overtime at McDonald's (60 hrs/week) for a $350 before-taxes paycheck hasn't worked any less strenuously than the franchise owner who profits from the guy's efforts.  Marxian Econ 101, I know.  But you seem to be suggesting that anyone could be prosperous if they'd just get off their lazy ass already, but the truth is that you can only earn so much when you're use-value is tied up in the needs of capitalism.

But these tangents aside, you are still projecting motives and implications onto the NYT article that you have yet to prove exist even in an inchoate, subtextual way. 

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel?  -J. Kristeva

JC

JC,

Actually, I'm not "suggesting that anyone could be prosperous if they'd just get off their lazy ass already." I'm stating it as a fact.

With the exception of the small percentage of those in our country that received their wealth through inheritance, I state inequivocally that the difference between the prosperous and the not so is indeed a function of work ethic.

As a business owner that has at times had 40 people on my payroll, the difference between the higher and lower paid in my company has ALWAYS been work ethic. Period.

How many people have you employed in your lifetime where the checks had your signature on it so as to be able to comment on this matter beyond anecdotally?

P.S. My gardener is a Mexican immigrant that came to this country penniless years ago not even speaking English. He went from working on someone else's truck to now owning five, makes multiple six-figures -- but works about 100 hours a week JUST LIKE ME!

If he can be "rich" in this nation, so can anybody! And this philosophy is what separates capitalist conservatives from socialist liberals: we believe people can; you believe when they don't, it's because the game is rigged against them.

I'll take it a step further: if there weren't liberals telling under-achievers that their plight is not their fault but caused by socio-economic forces beyond their control, we'd have FAR FEWER poor people in this country! Period.

The more you folks try to explain away under-achievement as being a fait accompli, the more folks accept their failures. Think about it.

It's ironic that you

It's ironic that you accuse me of commenting on the matter anecdotally and/or being unfit to comment at all because I am not a business owner, when you hold up your immigrant gardener's success as definitive proof.   

So the single mothers who work by day at the supermarket and by night as a waitress, so long as they put in 80-90 hrs/week, will be prosperous one day, as opposed to simply getting by and maybe being lucky to put a little money in savings each month?  Bull.

There are great success stories out there, no doubt about it.  And hard work is mandatory, obviously.  But there are jobs that offer no advancement and whose management/production structure allows them to treat employees as interchangeable.  I'm not even saying any of this stuff is "bad" as you seem to think the Times is doing w/r/t health care.  I'm just wholly rejecting your pie-in-the-sky premise that working hard is the totality of success in America.  It may be necessary, but it's no guarantee. 

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel?  -J. Kristeva

JC

JC,

Have more to say, but gotta run to two business meetings 90 miles away so that I can continue to be successful and provide more for my family than most fathers.

And, you're wrong: working hard is the totality of success in our nation. Too bad more don't feel that way, for there'd be A LOT more successful people.

Gotta run so that I can pay more taxes to subsidize those not working as hard as me. ns

I suppose as a non-employer

I suppose as a non-employer I am unfit to rebut your ironclad wisdom.

However, despite the fact that I make a living doing something that I absolutely love, at which I work almost perpetually (except for my NB breaks), I still recognize the factors other than my work ethic that contributed to my being in this position.

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel?  -J. Kristeva

»→ JasonC

My advantages in life consisted of:

  • Two parents who stayed together.

  • Living in poverty with 11 siblings.

  • My dad getting up every day to a low paying job.

  • An education through the GI Bill.

  • Choosing a good wife.

  • Choosing a good job, and doing it well.

  • Serving a good God.

  • Blaming no one, and not dwelling on, what I could have been.

Color me happy and blessed, but not rich.

♣ a seal

Cool A

Me too.

Not so much.

My dad went to a medium-paying job that he was exceptionally good at but kind of resented; my mother worked too, which I see as a bonus in my upbringing (not just financially but in terms of good role models).

Nope.

Definitely, though I'm only 6 months in...

Crucial.

I'm too conflicted on God and religion to comment.

Being something else has never even crossed my mind.

 

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel?  -J. Kristeva

»→ One more thing JasonC

God bless the rich, who provide me a good salary for my work.

♣ a seal

OK, nothing against the

OK, nothing against the rich per se, but I'm not going to act like they're doing me some big favor.  Either their wealth is dependent on your efforts or their lifestyle is dependent on something you can provide.  Either way, it's just the symbiosis of capitalism.  I see no need to extend further gratitude. 

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel?  -J. Kristeva

And, you're wrong: working

And, you're wrong: working hard is the totality of success in our nation.

Come on now, Noel, you're smarter than this. I freely agree that hard work is absolutely necessary unless you have a trust fund, old boy business connections, or good luck with lottery tickets. But to say nothing else even comes into play? Remember to take some time out of your busy schedule to comb the sand out of your hair.

Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva

JC

JC,

I don't believe nothing else comes into play. I think intelligence is also important, although not essential. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that hard work in virtually anything can overcome a lack of inherent skill or aptitude.

Let me give you two real life examples. The first is my son. One of the consistent comments I've gotten from his track coaches through the years is that he's not the most naturally gifted athlete on the planet. However, his work ethic and devotion to being the best high jumper he can be has gotten him further in the sport than many more talented by birthright.

In the end, if my son achieves his high jump goals, it will LARGELY be because of hard work. VERY hard work! I don't know if anyone in the country is working as hard as he is at high jump. Honestly.

Second real life example: I mentioned earlier that I had two business meetings today. One was with an old friend of mine I haven't seen in almost 15 years. Without giving too much away, she is not the most intelligent person I've ever met, nor did she go to a great college. Actually, she went to what I would consider a party school that I wouldn't let my kids go to.

However, she was always a hard worker, and now RUNS her own investment firm with about $200 million under management. This is one VERY successful woman -- way into the top 1 percent of wage earners. WAY! Just closed on a 6600 square foot house with 2 1/2 acres -- in Northern California!!! No small feat, trust me!

Her offices were marvelously appointed, with plasma TVs everywhere playing CNBC for her clients, nice antique furniture, and Persian rugs. I was so impressed, and proud of my friend I can't tell you. Actually, tears are coming to my eyes as I type this I'm so proud!

Yet, none of this came from her parents, her upbringing, or her education. She set out years ago to be one of the top CFPs in her area, and she's become exactly that. And, her long-term goals, though privately expressed to me, would knock your eyes out. Know what? I think she'll accomplish them all -- because of hard work.

As you can tell, I couldn't be more proud of her.

This is what comes of hard work, JC -- for both my son, my friend, and anybody else willing to put in the effort. Frankly, they're both an inspiration to me. ns