Correlation Falsification: The Missing Global Warming - CO2 Link

Photo of Noel Sheppard.
By Noel Sheppard | December 9, 2007 - 19:34 ET

Unless you have either been asleep or out of the country for the last two years, you are fully aware of the contention made by climate alarmists in the media that rising atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide are responsible for global warming.

In fact, this is such a common press theme that in just the last month alone, there have been more than 3,000 English-speaking news reports (LexisNexis search limit) around the world containing the words carbon dioxide and global warming/climate change.

It therefore goes without saying that this is a large part of the junk science folks like former Vice President Al Gore claim is settled, as they avow there is a significant correlation between the amount of CO2 in the air and the surface temperature of the planet. To save us all from imminent doom, the presence of this heinous greenhouse gas must be reduced immediately.

Yet, with all this finger-pointing at CO2 being the culprit for all earth's ills other than those caused by George W. Bush and every politician with an "R" next to his or her name, there's a tremendously inconvenient truth Gore and his media sycophants can't possibly refute:

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Since 1850 -- the period climate alarmists cite as proof of this unholy connection -- if you look at temperature and CO2 fluctuations on a year-over-year basis, there appears to be absolutely no correlation between the two items.

The Great CO2 - Temperature Debate

Despite assertions to the contrary, there is great debate concerning what atmospheric CO2 levels have done in the past, especially prior to the establishment of a detection center at the Mauna Loa Observatory in 1957.

Without rehashing all of the arguments on both sides, there are many scientists that contend CO2 estimations for the years prior to the start of tracking at Mauna Loa are specious and inconclusive, and that such levels have often been far greater than at present. In fact, some think that due to Mauna Loa's proximity to a volcano, even its data are faulty, while others maintain that alarmists have this whole correlation backwards and that rising temperatures are actually responsible for increasing CO2 levels.

However, without ambling into that debate, the folks at the Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center informed me that since around the year 1850, it is their belief that CO2 levels have increased virtually every year. The following chart sourced from Mauna Loa and the Scripps Institute depicts unabated increases in CO2 levels from at least 1870:

Assuming for the sake of this discussion CDIAC is correct, and also taking on faith that there is a high correlation between CO2 and climate, one would expect that temperatures have risen virtually every year since 1850.

After all, this is how highly-correlated items act: they should both increase at the same time, and decrease at the same time. If they don't, there isn't a correlation.

Of course, those who remember their high school science are fully cognizant of the fact that correlation does not mean causality.

There is a perfect correlation between children going back to school at the end of the summer and leaves beginning to fall off trees in the subsequent two months. Obviously, despite this incontrovertible correlation, nobody believes children returning to school cause leaves to die and fall to the ground.

However, ignoring the folly of those like Gore and his media minions that don't seem to understand this immutable fact, let's instead focus on the supposed correlation regardless of what it might or might not mean.

The Missing Carbon Dioxide - Temperature Link

As the following chart of temperature deviations from the norm shows, there have been 72 years in the past 156 when global average temperatures declined year-over-year:

If the folks that believe CO2 has risen every year since 1850 are correct, then how come temperatures have only increased in 53.8 percent of those years?

For those familiar with statistics, this is a possible outcome of heads appearing on 156 coin tosses.

Yet, if the correlation between CO2 and temperature was high, regardless of its meaning or lack thereof, one of two things should have happened in the past 156 years: temperatures rose virtually every year, or; in the 72 years that temperatures declined, CO2 levels also declined in an overwhelming majority of them.

Once again, this is indeed how highly-correlated items behave.

As a result, in the critical years that global warming alarmists use to prove there is such a high correlation, we saw virtually no year-over-year connection between atmospheric CO2 levels and temperature.

Media's Mathematical Madness

Now that you've seen this in black and white, it seems so simple, doesn't it? Of course, like most things, it's even better in color:

Seems pretty obvious that on a year-over-year basis, there's absolutely no connection between what CO2 does and whether temperatures rise or fall. But that's not what Al Gore and the media have been telling you, is it?

Now, in fairness, the climate alarmists don't use year-over-year figures to create their correlation. Instead, they point to what CO2 levels and average temperatures were in 1850 or 1900, compare that data to where we are today, and say that since they've both increased, voila, there's your connection.

The warmers would also say that looking at year-over-year data is too narrow a focus. Yet, at the same time, they'll point to the number of years in the past 20 that global temperatures have set annual historical records as proof that the planet is warming.

As such, yearly data is important when it proves their point, and irrelevant when it doesn't. Pretty convenient, wouldn't you say?

On the flipside, skeptics would counter that given the age of the planet, even comparing centuries is too narrow, and that this is one of the failings of alarmists who like to exclusively look at what's happened in the past 150 years whilst ignoring climate and CO2 data over the millennia.

In the end, what timeframe you focus on might be moot, as it seems fairly obvious that if you are trying to prove a connection between events to mean that one is causing the other, the correlation between said items should be very high across any period one looks at.

This seems especially important as the real planetary warming during this cycle has occurred since the mid '70s. Yet, as CO2 rose unabated during this period, temperatures declined year-over-year almost half of the time.

If CO2 really is the big, bad bogeyman Al Gore and his media minions claim, shouldn't temperatures have risen virtually every year in the past 30 as carbon dioxide levels exploded?

Maybe more importantly, aren't these questions a truly impartial media would be asking whenever the issue of CO2's connection to global warming was raised?

Or would that be asking too much of folks who call themselves journalists?

The preceding was an elaboration of a column first published by CNSNews. Thanks go out to all the scientists around the world as well as NewsBusters readers who assisted me both with researching this issue and identifying applicable charts and graphs.

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.

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Great post, Noel.

Realclimate's answer would be that there is a lag between CO2 levels and warming.  The problem is that their example from history for this correlation demonstrates an EIGHT HUNDRED YEAR lag between a rise in CO2 and a rise in temps. 

You can't have it all ways.  Wake me in 675 years.

if increased CO2 in the air was the result

of CO2 outgassing from the ocean, the ocean acidity would be decreasing(less CO2 in water decreases acidity). Ocean acidity has increased over the last 20 years, implying more CO2 has dissolved. Now, volcanoes and hydrothermal vents have existed long before the present CO2 increase in the air. Ice core samples show a fairly constant CO2 level for thousands of years. During the industrial age, CO2 levels have climbed. The physics between the CO2 concentrations in the air and climate forcings have been established.

There are other factors which also affect global temperatures, but the general trend is upward. CO2 is not the only forcing so it's possible that the sum of all forcings could cause fluctuation of temperature as CO2 increases. The main point is that CO2 is a forcing on temperature, and if CO2 levels increase, that forcing also increase.

No competent scientists

No competent scientists disputes that Atmospheric  CO2 concentrations have increased in the last two centuries. 

What is in dispute is the effect this will have.  The well established science, the Beer-Lambert law, says this effect will be small, almost trivial in comparison with natural variations, no more thean 2.0 degrees K even if CO2 concentrations exceed 1000 ppm, or more than double today's concentration.

It is the radical climate alarmists who claim that CO2 increase of the magnitude we see today will produce significant and even catastrophic changes in climate.  It is this case that is not made.  You can quote established science all you want.  The well established science does not support the alarmist case.   It is your boys over at the realclimate kook fringe site that are proposing radical new and unproven theories about positive feedbacks in the system amplifying what science knows would otherwise be insignificant into a catastrophe. 

The kooks at realclimate who have published

dozens of peer reviewed papers are not well established? You better check their biographies before making these kinds of statements, or you can state your denialism views there and see how well they hold up to scrutiny from CLIMATE SCIENTISTS! Good luck!

They can publish all they

They can publish all they want.  I for one, want to cut off all the money they have been wasting from the public coffers and redirect those funds to something more useful, like body armor for our troops fighting the Islamic Jihad.

They wouldn't get a farthing of that money if they were telling the Congress and the people what the most likely outcome of all this will be:  at most, about 2.0 degrees K total human induced climate change no matter what.  This number is dwarfed by the natural climate variance which has been about 20.0 degrees K over the last 2.5 million years or so.

These peole are self-serving parasites vigorosuly sucking on the public tit.  This public money is vast and a source of inestimable corruption. They don't produce anything that is of any actual use to anyone.  They have all the credibility of the "rainmakers" who used to travel about the western US in the 19th Century selling all sorts of lamebrained rain making schemes to desparate farmers.

NL, you should present your hypothesis

to other qualified scientists to see how it holds up. Like, your idea about newton's third law. Present your ideas to qualified scientists if you are truthful about wanting answers to questions. The RC scientists are waiting, NL.

By the way, NL, the planet Venus has a far hotter surface

temperature than Mercury, even though it is farther from the sun.

What do you think the cause of Venuses dramatic hot surface temperature could be due to? According to you, increased CO2 levels can only produce a 2K temperature rise. Please explain.

So What?  Venus also has

So What?  Venus also has an atmospheric density that is 90 times that of earth, sort of like being about 2,600 feet underwater. 

Check out the Beer-Lambert law again.    You tell me:  Does increasing the density of the gas medium make a dfifference in absorption? 

Mercury has no atmosphere. 

How about mars then?

By the way, NL, the planet Venus has a far hotter surfaceDecember 10, 2007 - 02:25 ET by professor truth

temperature than Mercury, even though it is farther from the sun.

What do you think the cause of Venuses dramatic hot surface temperature could be due to? According to you, increased CO2 levels can only produce a 2K temperature rise. Please explain. "

 

Carbon dioxide makes up 95.3% of the gas in the atmosphere of Mars and the average temperature on Mars is about -80°F.

 http://www.friendsofscience.org/

Hey how did you do that with the shaded quote?

-

 

You're a teacher and you

You're a teacher and you don't know that Mercury doesn't have an atmosphere in order to hold the heat in????

Venus is not as hot as they originally thought it was, this just in from the ESA probe: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Venus_Express/SEM5A373R8F_1.html#subhead1 

Nice little charts that show what we originally thought and what there actually is.  From the observed data, Venus is not helping your AGW cause.

Obviously, basing an assertion on a faulty understanding of the climate of Venus gets you another faulty assertion.  That's bad logic or in this case a false proof.  BTW- as NL pointed out, the atmospheric pressure of Venus is 90 bar or 1323 pounds per square inch at the surface, hence at minimum, just as Mercury has no capacity to store heat without an atmosphere, Venus has at least 90 times more atmosphere to store that heat than Earth. So in actuality, we would expect Venus to be 90 times hotter than Earth IF there was sufficient solar insolation to supply the heat energy.  Venus being closer to the sun gets twice the solar insolation as earth.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.

Not to mention. If

Not to mention. If PT's "knowledge" were correct, we should expect vertually identical surface tempertures on earth and the lunar surface.  

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

Bahaha, that's right, the

Bahaha, that's right, the moon's day time temp. is measured to be 107 C mean daytime temp (boiling water) and -153 C mean night time temp.  http://www.solarviews.com/eng/moon.htm  So for the global simple average mean of the moon, gives 23 C or 73.4 F.  Now that's inconvenient, since the GAT is around 13.9 C or 57 F for the earth, so are we really saying the atmosphere is not a green house gas after all.  Absurd isn't it? http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/anomalies/anomalies.html

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.

Whoa. I wasn't even

Whoa. I wasn't even thinking GATs. Therefore the analogy of a greenhouse gas is incorrect. It would be best described as insulation. 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

Of course then comes

Of course then comes albedo, the reflectance of the an object, the earth being around .30 to .37 and the moon around .12 or so.  Venus is around .65 or so all depending on who you choose to read.  Based on albedo alone one could make the case that we should see a significantly higher GAT for the Moon on the order of double.  Earth and Moon have essentially the same insolation on average.

Venus on the other hand reflects twice that of Earth so it should be half, but then Venus gets twice the insolation, so that should balance out leaving the mass of the atmosphere to account for any GAT differences, again 90 times the mass allows for a significant heat storage effect.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.

Thank you PT.You helped us

Thank you PT.You helped us see something

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

I was rechecking my math

I was rechecking my math and forgot the minus sign, it should have been - 23 C ( - 9.4 F) not 23 C.  big difference.  So if the GAT for the moon is - 23 C and the GAT for the earth is 13.9 C (57 F), that means roughly 36.9 C (66.4 F) difference that is attributable to the atmosphere.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.

dscot -- also the surface

dscot -- also the surface temperature of the Sun is only 6000 C. Which really, when you think about it, isn't that much hotter than Venus. Though I think the Sun is more of a dry heat.

This leads me to conclude that Venus is really just a mini Sun. It's all in the logic.

Check out my exclusive edit of BBC News America's interview with Mrs Clinton: It's news to me!

Venus

Ever noticed that Venus is covered with CLOUDS?

Ever notice that a Venusian day is longer than its year?

Additionally, ever noticed what the temperature is on the nighttime surface of Mercury? As NL207 already pointed out, it has no atmosphere.

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Then let them come here to

Then let them come here to a nuetral ground.

As to Newton's laws, you already received the opinion of HydrodynDM on the subject.  He is a Phd physicist.

I will restate the three laws completely explained for you in the hopes you will finally actually understand what Newton was talking about.

(1)  The law of inertia.  Newton observed that bodies possessing the property of mass cannot change their kinetic energy unless an outside force does work on them.  "Objects in motion tend to remain in motion and objects at rest tend to remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force."

(2)  F=ma.  The rate at which outside forces act on bodies possesing mass.

 (3)  Conservation of Energy.  Newton recognized that force was the potential to do work and could not be created from a void.  He also grasped that moving bodies were energy reservoirs, calculated at the rate, 0.5*m*v**2.  Newton recognized that kinetic energy could not be created or destroyed, it could only be transferred through interactions with other bodies.  Hence:  "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".   and... conservaton of energy.  And no, Newton never did get it that heat was the same thing as kinetic energy.  That waited for Joule to come along.

As far as what you think of my credentials, I could care less. 

NL Did you see the real

NL Did you see the real scientist at RealClimate.org in the news?

Steve McIntyre was the nice one.  "Some nits are pointed out in Loehle methodology. I haven’t checked the correctness of these points. And I definitely endorse the idea of realclimate (or anyone else) checking for defects in data handling and reporting. However, they would be a little more credible if they dealt with the many beams in their own eye, "

And from Luboš Motl

"It is a standard policy at RealClimate.ORG that the authors of the articles don't offer the criticized article itself to their undemanding readers."..."What's important for the readers is not to learn something or compare arguments for various statements and their robustness. Instead, what they expect is their daily prayer, Oh the global warming, you're so great and holy, and oh the climate skeptics and the climate traitors, they are oh so evil. Gavin Schmidt and others are optimized to write this inexpensive material for this kind of people."

Motl then discusses Schmidts criticism of Loehle. To

"There might be some legitimate criticism in Gavin's text but I couldn't find any. The comparison of Gavin Schmidt and Steve McIntyre as "auditors" couldn't be more startling. While McIntyre always analyzes the finest detail of the reconstructions, he reruns all relevant programs (and does some reverse engineering when necessary), Schmidt builds on superficial, Woit-like defamations and pseudocriticism that he often makes up in which he doesn't even link to the relevant papers or sources because he probably knows himself that what he writes is not true and it only designed to manipulate with gullible readers.

If you realize that charlatans such as Gavin Schmidt are paid for their work while Steve McIntyre must work as an outsider, the state of affairs in the present climate science seems sad, indeed."

 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

I hope you are not a real

I hope you are not a real professor, as someone who has had even the slightest experience with the peer review process will know that the fact that your article is peer reviewed does not a) mean that it is scientific or b) mean that the conclusion is right. All that peer review asks is "Is there anything really egregious in this article, and does it add something new?"

Worse

The "professor" actually claims to be a high school chemistry teacher.  For being versed in chemistry, he seems to know very little about why the Venera probes were sent to Venus with plenty of liquid helium, and what happened when the helium boiled off.

I think the GW religionists should study some astronomy sometime.  It would be quite enlightening.   

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Propaganda

Publishing numerous papers proves nothing, it is the equivalent of filibustering which is what RealClimate's strategy is with AGW. What matters is whether the science is true or not.

I still do not understand why the computer illiterate continues to post here?

The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource

Be careful with True Versus Fact

After all, it is "true" if everyone is saying it, i.e. the Global Warming alarmists. It is "Fact" if there is scientific proof. Professor "Truth" just says what he wants while ignoring the Facts.

Playstation Climatology

That's a phrase I saw coined at another web site that says it all. The earth's surface temperature goes up and down. So what? Deal with the result.

All the death and destruction scenarios come from computer models. The same sort of models that can't tell me accurately what the weather next week or next month will be but purport to scientifically predict the earth's surface conditions fifty to a hundred years from now. BULL HOCKEY!

In reality it's just another power grab by a bunch of misanthropic dirt worshipers who want us eliminated starting with our current comfortable life style.

RealClimate Propaganda

RealClimate says that they don't know what causes the initial 600-1000 year lag but they are damn sure that afterward it is caused by CO2. What propaganda. What type of illiterate buys this stuff? Oh that is right professor truther.

Peer-Review Evidence that CO2 lags temperature changes by 600-1000 years:

180 years of atmospheric CO2 gas analysis by chemical methods
(Energy & Environment, Volume 18, Number 2, pp. 259-282(24), March 2007)
- Beck, Ernst-Georg

Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations
(Science, Vol. 283. no. 5408, pp. 1712 - 1714, 12 March 1999)
- Hubertus Fischer, Martin Wahlen, Jesse Smith, Derek Mastroianni, Bruce Deck

Southern Hemisphere and Deep-Sea Warming Led Deglacial Atmospheric CO2 Rise and Tropical Warming
(Science, September 27, 2007)
- Lowell Stott, Axel Timmermann, Robert Thunell

The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka
(Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 20, Issue 4, Pages 583-589, February 2001)
- Manfred Mudelsee

Timing of Atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic Temperature Changes Across Termination III
(Science 14, Vol. 299. no. 5613, March 2003)
- Nicolas Caillon, Jeffrey P. Severinghaus, Jean Jouzel, Jean-Marc Barnola, Jiancheng Kang, Volodya Y. Lipenkov

 

The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource

Look out! Here come the

Look out! Here come the Natural Weather Cycle deniers to debunk your faulty science and report you to Media Matters!

D

Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.

Yeah Noel, you're just as

Yeah Noel, you're just as bad as those Holocost deniers or those flat-earthers. Now ignore those logical facts and join the concensus! The argument's over!!

 

PS - great post! 

Noel. I know I'm going

Noel. I know I'm going where you said we weren't. But I have to point out. I question the CO2 levels. Where any inconvenient level was tossed out as a sampling error. And we're told that the air in those ice cores was something like 70 years younger than the ice that encased them.

And the temperture record looks like one of Hansen's adjustments. Where historical records are adjusted downward and recent are adjusted upwards.

But you get to the problem with AGW. There is at best a very loose connection between CO2 and climate. They start measuring not long after we started coming out oif the LIA. (The year without summer was 1816 or so, followed by a smaller but similar event with the eruption of Krakatoa. But, after WWII when we started driving like crazy, and industries were in overdrive. We had cooling. And not till we had a shift in the PDO in the late 70's to early 80"s did it start to warm.

The warmers with their obsession with the SUV, ignore the sun, the oceans and volcanos.

I recently read a study on CO2, solar and oceanic oscillations. The R2 for CO2 since the beginning of the centry was only in the 20% range. Only 5% for the last 10 years. R2 for the sun was over 60% and the oceanic oscillations (PDO+AMO) was over 80%.

But the gods of AGW have spoken.

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

danbo, One thing I keep

danbo,

One thing I keep thinking about in this whole AGW debate is the effect of water vapour.  I have lived in high humidity areas where the temp drops little at night, and been in low humidity areas where there is a big temp drop once the sun goes down. 

 I often wonder if the irrigation of not only lawns, but crops and the many man made lakes have affected the temperature not only in urban areas, but surrounding ones as well.

Don't get me wrong-I am not against crop irrigation.  Having been around farming I see the necessity of it in many years if we are to have a reliable food supply.  A slight local average temp rise, if that is the case, is a small price to pay for food.

I am just saying I wonder how much the man induced water vapour effects things.

If we go to a Hydrogen

If we go to a Hydrogen economy, the new boogy man will be water vapour, since that is the output of burning hydrogen.

Are you sure you want to go

Are you sure you want to go there, alamo? We could end up with a real crisis on our hands. I don't think people are aware of the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide.

We could be opening a whole new can of worms.

Not just dihydrogen

Not just dihydrogen monoxide, but also dioxygen. Both are known to have killed people. We need to eradicate those pollutions. 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

There is absolute

There is absolute scientific consensus on the danger of dihydrogen monoxide.  Only a world wide socialist utopia of open borders and the end of the out-dated concept of nation-states can save us. 

/sarc off

-

Don't miss the ad: 

Acme Klein Bottles:  Where yesterday's future is here today.

Thanks fopr the heads up. I

Thanks fopr the heads up. I thought it was a link to this. 

This is the danger of dioxygen.  Something else we can't live without.

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

talk about a crisis

History has shown that 10 out of 10 people eventually die for sundry reasons. This is unacceptable.

We need to win the fight against old age. 

 

I have to get up early and fill young, impressionable minds with leftwing propaganda. Wish me luck!  -Professor TP&C

candance...

I'm with you on this one. I won't be happy until we get the numbers looking a little more like..."5 out of 10 people eventually die". 

Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson

clear & candance

My brother is..... "working on it".

My oldest bro moved out to California, and is now working building robots for some company run by a billionaire. So, in other words, my brother's a BIG BRAIN.

When we would get deep and talk about existential stuff and then on to mortality, he'd tell me "yeah, I'm working on it." Meaning, he's working to change the 10 out of 10 death rate among humans :p

 

"Are ZZ TOP part of the Taliban?? Think on it, son."

-- Professor TP&C (Talking Points & Cheetos)

British English

You British? 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

lol.  No, I am not

lol.  No, I am not British.  I just like spelling it like the British "vapour" instead of the American "vapor".

Unsane, you definetly have an eye for such things.

 

AGW fraud

And the temperture record looks like one of Hansen's adjustments. Where historical records are adjusted downward and recent are adjusted upwards.

 Not to mention that not only Hansen's adjustments lack credibility, but the calamity of weather station placement we've all seen in the US and lack of reliable data from international stations cast further doubt on accurate temps. Satellite data since 1979 has shown little or no warming in the troposphere where the majority of the warming should have taken place. It's important to remember that even one century of time is like looking at one grain of sand on a beach. To try and claim that global warming is a problem by looking at the last 20 years, like these AGW idiots do, is just plain silly!

Venus

You know, I can't believe I never thought to mention this before...especially considering how much I enjoy astronomy.

How many of these scientists are familiar with Venus?

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

"If CO2 really is the big,

"If CO2 really is the big, bad bogeyman Al Gore and his media minions
claim, shouldn't temperatures have risen virtually every year in the
past 30 as carbon dioxide levels exploded?"

Not only that, but shouldn't those temperatures have skyrocketed to all-time highs right along with the CO2? Shouldn't we be warmer today than at anytime in our history?

The reality is they can't even prove "global warming" at the poles, where it should be occurring the most.

 

Didn't they get the

Didn't they get the memo?

The science is settled.

There is a "concensus."

Get with the program.

OK, now HERE's one...

...for any passing itinerant climatologists:

If you look at an expanded graph of the Mauna Loa data, there's a fairly obvious seasonal fluctuation of 5 ppm or so. Now, call me a rebel, but I don't think the carbon dioxide is what made the seasons change...  Isn't that at least somewhat supportive of the argument that temperature elevations drive up CO2, and not the other way around?

Rise in temps causes rise in CO2 not the other way around.

If you go to the Internet Skeptic's website (he's from Columbus Ohio) he has a great presentation based on nothing but scientists' previous findings. I appears that a rise in temps causes a rise in CO2 not the other way around.

sad part is

it wont matter this is logical and makes sense what use is this to the alarmist.. none.

 

honesty is the best policy... unless your running for office.

UK TV Debunks Global Warming Hysteria

"Britain's Channel 4 has produced a devastating documentary titled "The Great Global Warming Swindle." It has apparently not been broadcast by any of the networks in the United States. But, fortunately, it is available on the Internet." - Thomas Sowell

Watch the Video >>

-

Brit

It's been on Free's list for months.  You may want to check it closely we know this stuff is debunked

you may want to look for his "Iraq War was the right thing to do" also

"everytime you take a shower you are a mass murderer"  -- the Profff

Yes, I know, the link is for

Yes, I know, the link is for the benefit of the new people and those that missed it. Of course I am happy for you to also place Free's link here in the thread, it will surely benefit the same people.

Correlation and causality

There is only one thing I can think of that correlates very well with your [CO2] data, Noel, and that is the population. If our output is CO2 from respiration, then as the population increases, then the concentration of CO2 should also increase.

Noel ,I just love your pictures of the temp gauges, with AC

units spewing hot air at the various weather stations .

Mauna Loa is about 20 miles from the largest volcano GAS VENT on this planet!


Kilauea Volcano

venting, and gushing lava in this present phase for 23 YEARS.

 

iranian uranium; iranian uranium, iranian uranium..

So when ARE the Russians going to finish the iranian atoms for peace power plant?

 Oh the

 Oh the humanity !!!

 

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/tropical_weather_1

 

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "

                   - Ben Kenobi on  Liberals, and the MSM.

Peer Review Evidence of the CO2 Lag

Al Gore 'Debates' Global Warming (Video) (9min)

CO2 & temperature: ice core correlations (Luboš Motl, Ph.D. Theoretical Physicist, Harvard)


Peer Reviewed Papers:

180 years of atmospheric CO2 gas analysis by chemical methods
(Energy & Environment, Volume 18, Number 2, pp. 259-282(24), March 2007)
- Beck, Ernst-Georg

Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations
(Science, Vol. 283. no. 5408, pp. 1712 - 1714, 12 March 1999)
- Hubertus Fischer, Martin Wahlen, Jesse Smith, Derek Mastroianni, Bruce Deck

Southern Hemisphere and Deep-Sea Warming Led Deglacial Atmospheric CO2 Rise and Tropical Warming
(Science, September 27, 2007)
- Lowell Stott, Axel Timmermann, Robert Thunell

The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka
(Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 20, Issue 4, Pages 583-589, February 2001)
- Manfred Mudelsee

Timing of Atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic Temperature Changes Across Termination III
(Science 14, Vol. 299. no. 5613, March 2003)
- Nicolas Caillon, Jeffrey P. Severinghaus, Jean Jouzel, Jean-Marc Barnola, Jiancheng Kang, Volodya Y. Lipenkov

"The sequence of events during Termination III suggests that the CO2
increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years and
preceded the Northern Hemisphere deglaciation."

The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource

Excellent post, Noel! The

Excellent post, Noel!

The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy

While I agree that AGW is

While I agree that AGW is crap, so is Noel Sheppard's presentation. First, he doesn't understand statistics, as if he did, he would never have confused it with probability. Second, just because something is the primary cause does not mean that every change in the dependent variable must be in the same direction as the change in the most significant independent variable, or even that majority must. Why? There are secondary variables that also get a say, and if those a reasonably significant, they can produce large deviances from the result expected by a prediction based on the single variable alone. Now, looking at the bottom graph, if I saw a relationship like that between one variable and another I was studying, I would certainly include that variable in a multiple regression provided there was not a good theoretical reason not to (e.g. clearly spurious or too highly correlated with another variable).

Noel's presentation is highly superficial. If there is a problem with the analysis, Noel did not come close to exposing it.

Are you inplying that

Are you implying that coorelations are proof of causality? 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

Did I say that anywhere in

Did I say that anywhere in my post? No.

Next question.

Then you agree that

Then you agree that coorelations are not proof of causality. Just checking

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

JS

JS,

So I don't understand statistics? Great. Enlighten the class and myself -- specifically, please -- how two highly-correlated items, over a period of 156 years, can demonstrate such random year-over-year results?

More specifically, if rises in CO2 are causing temperatures to rise, then with your superior statistical acumen, demonstrate to the class how almost 50 percent of the time that CO2 rises in any given year, temperatures decline.

Furthermore, in your comment, you stated:

[J]ust because something is the primary cause does not mean that every change in the dependent variable must be in the same direction as the change in the most significant independent variable, or even that majority must. Why? There are secondary variables that also get a say, and if those a reasonably significant, they can produce large deviances from the result expected by a prediction based on the single variable alone.

That's correct. However, if those secondary and tertiary variables can produce such large deviations, mightn't they actually be much more important than the presumed primary variable? Isn't this especially the case if they so dramatically impact results 50 percent of the time?

In the end, this is indeed the skeptical position: there are many factors involved in the recent warming cycle that are likely much more important than CO2 whose impact could be irrelevant by comparison.

As such, please instruct the class as to how I'm statistically errant in this regard.

I await your learned tutorial with great eagerness. ns

First, to deny you your

First, to deny you your shelter of "oh, but I'm not saying that this data doesn't show any relationship between CO2 and temperature," let me quote the inconvienient truth you stated in the begining:

"Since 1850 -- the period climate alarmists cite as proof of this unholy
connection -- if you look at temperature and CO2 fluctuations on a
year-over-year basis, there appears to be absolutely no correlation
between the two items"

What is your sole basis for this allegation in your post?

"there have been 72 years in the past 156 when global average temperatures declined year-over-year... If the folks that believe CO2 has risen every year since 1850 are
correct, then how come temperatures have only increased in 53.8 percent
of those years?"

To which I say "autocorrelation." Anyone who has ever tried to run time series data (which, strangely, happens to be what you have there) has probably run into this problem, and yes, it is a problem. This is where there is a pattern to the error term (predicted value - actual value). The pattern can be anything, really, but the most common is what we have here: above the predicted value one year, below the next. Now, if the effect size of the variable is small, a small amount of autocorrelation would be enough to cause the 50-50 distribution you noted. If the effect size of the variable is large, then you obviously need more autocorrelation to produce the same distribution.

What does autocorrelation do to an estimator? For one, it artificially lowers the standard error, which basically means that the estimator looks more significant than it actually is (that doesn't necessarily mean that the estimator is not significant, though). However, autocorrelation does not bias the estimator. That is, if you use the estimator to predict the value of y, you will overestimate the value as much as you underestimate it.

Of course though, you could get the same distribution simply from random noise, in which case there is no underestimation of the standard error. So the question: does this graph truely show autocorrelation? Well, for that I will kindly ask you to provide the Durbin-Watson statistic for this data. Just remember, the closer to 2, the better.

Except, you don't actually have something like that, do you? Do you have an r^2? A p-value? Did you run this data through SPSS? Stata? Is there something that we can actually point to and say "Ah-ha! This doesn't even meet the 90% level of significance?" No, what you have is a graph, which from my subjective point of view would tell me that there is a relationship there to be checked out, and some odd rule of a 50-50 distribution of ups and downs that you aren't going to find in any statistical textbook. As a result, you don't actually (dis)prove anything. You just make the rest of us AGW skeptics look bad.

Oh yeah, and you should know that any number of heads between 0 and 156 is a possible outcome of 156 coin tosses.

JS

JS,

As a result, you don't actually (dis)prove anything. You just make the rest of us AGW skeptics look bad.

This will certainly come as a shock to the noted skeptical scientists from across the globe who sent me opinions and graphs as I was researching this.

Regardless, it seems it is you that haven't actually proved or disproved anything. You have instead offered statistical possibilities that might explain this condition. As I recall from my statistics classes, one could prove virtually anything one wanted to within a certain significance level. We used to call it mathematical masturbation.

However, what you haven't done is demonstrate how if CO2 is indeed the primary precipitant of rising temperatures on the planet why temperatures have declined almost 50 percent of the years since CO2 levels exploded.

This is indeed the issue at hand. Barring statistics, if there are other things mitigating CO2's warming characteristics during any time interval we choose -- such as solar activity and other GHGs -- how can CO2 be the primary heating source? ns

Exactly, I have shown that

Exactly, I have shown that fairly common conditions exist that can account for your 50-50 distribution, which is why your presentation doesn't count as evidence for anything. If all that your "skeptical scientists from across the globe" has sent you is this, then quite frankly you need to find better skeptical scientists. Didn't one of them send an actual statistical model?

If CO2 accounts for 51% of the global temperature effect, that leaves 49% for other factors to play around the trend line, which is a lot of variation. And that's assuming that the largest factor must have a majority of the impact (something that is rarely true). And the question for the graphs that you have posted is not is CO2 that primary heating source (which would indicate that CO2 was engaged in some sort of exothermic reaction), but whether it is responsible for that warming trend. If you want to show that other factors are better predictors, then provide the data. Put a graph together that puts that temperature data against solar activity. Then you may have an argument. Right now all that you did in the story is try to attack something with nothing. Nothing loses.

A fresh view of the role of Carbon Dioxide

Hello Noel,

I have just today received permission to adress your forum, so somewhat late I pass on my views on the AGW Hype. Some of them have the audacity to call their views a scientific hypothesis, when anyone with half a brain knows that it is all Political Hype and no thesis. As I recently started a discussion on John Brignell's Forum at numberwatch called "Exploding The Myth of AGW (Hard Science Thanks To Dalton)", I append the opening Post which readers can follow up at < www.numberwatch.co.uk >

Exploding The Myth of AGW (Hard Science Thanks To Dalton)

Section 1, of this article's letter is based on very hard science and can be checked by reference to < rob@mbari.org >

Section 2, of this article's letter is based entirely on my own hard won knowledge and hands-on experience from 40 years of effort as an Engineer involved with Enabling Technology; specialising in the fields of Fluid Dynamics, Chemical Kinetics, and Combustion Science. And, of course, a thorough grounding in the application of Mr Dalton's Laws. He has never failed me!

[An imaginary letter to the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)]

Dear sirs,

Your plans and policy directives for Climate stabilization are not working, and cannot work. Simply because your advisory scientists and Climate Modellers can now be proved to be basing their whole scenario on a set of completely wrong premises. We present the following:-

1, The mainstay of the Global Warming hypothesis is the assertion that anthropogenic production of Carbon Dioxide is using the atmosphere as a 'sink' and thereby causing its CO2 content to rise. This assertion is based on the premise that all natural carbon sinks have been accounted for, and that the increase above the norm matches the 40% of manmade emissions considered to reach the atmosphere, approx. 2.5 Giga Tonnes per annum. --- However, in 2005 Marine Scientists from the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute published the findings of a 10 year investigation into the activities of a little known sea creature 'Lavicean Mucus'. This little form of sea life is very prolific around the world's oceans and spends its life feeding on detritus falling down from the sea surface. The carbon which it absorbs is rejected in a mucus envelope which sinks to the deep sea bed. Projected from their mensuration statistics, they find an astounding annual value of around 2 Gt. of carbon being removed in this way! And a very pertinent fact is that they predominate in the coastal waters of the continents, exactly where the fall-out of anthropogenic emissions are likely to be absorbed by the seas. Coincidences of this magnitude are entirely tenable given that the basic hypothesis is wrong.

2, Another main assertion of your scientists is based on the premise that the amount of CO2 which the atmosphere can sustain is based on the workings of the Carbon Cycle, and is governed simply by the arithmetic of carbon production versus carbon sinks. --- Unfortunately, according to the established Laws of Physics, specifically the Gas Laws and Dalton's Law of Pa