Price of Media Warm-mongering: Kansas Denies Coal-fired Power Plant License

Photo of Noel Sheppard.

On Thursday, for the first time in American history, a state denied an electricity producer a construction license for a coal-fired power plant due to manmade global warming fears. As ominously reported by the New York Times Saturday (emphasis added):

The Kansas Department of Health and Environment on Thursday turned down a permit for twin 700-megawatt coal-fired generators that a group of electric cooperatives is seeking to build near Holcomb in southwest Kansas. The ownership and the electricity would be shared by 67 cooperatives in Kansas and neighboring states.

The department's staff had recommended issuing the air quality permits, but Roderick L. Bremby, the secretary of the department, said in a statement, "I believe it would be irresponsible to ignore emerging information about the contribution of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases to climate change and the potential harm to our environment and health if we do nothing."

As the Washington Post reported Friday, this decision has disturbing national implications (emphasis added):

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The decision marks a victory for environmental groups that are fighting proposals for new coal-fired plants around the country. It may be the first of a series of similar state actions inspired by a Supreme Court decision in April that asserted that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide should be considered pollutants under the Clean Air Act.

[...]

The proposed Holcomb plants had become the center of a political dispute in Kansas, inflaming traditional tensions between the eastern and western parts of the state, dividing labor unions and posing a test for the energy policies of Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, who is head of the Democratic Governors Association and is believed to harbor aspirations for federal office.

Kansas, long a conservative Republican stronghold, is not generally considered to be on the leading edge of environmental causes. The GOP leadership in both the state Senate and House of Representatives endorsed the project. Although the regional United Steelworkers union opposed the plant, the state AFL-CIO supported it.

"Now the Sebelius administration rockets to the forefront of the states [working] to solve the global warming crisis," said Bruce Nilles, a Sierra Club lawyer.

As is typical, the warm-mongers totally ignored the economic side of the argument:

The plants' powerful supporters included the speaker of the state House, Melvin Neufeld, who had earlier gathered the signatures of 46 GOP members, including key committee chairmen, for a letter to Bremby. The letter said, "Without your approval of the permit as proposed by Sunflower, our state and its citizens will lose access to the low-cost energy source and millions in economic development." Thirty-one Republican House members declined to sign the letter.

Neufeld said the plants would bring in new tax revenue, create hundreds of jobs, prompt the expansion of transmission lines that could also be used for wind power and keep energy costs low for Kansans by producing enough power to export to other states.

This issue has already had a political fallout that few media outlets bothered to share. See if you can identify why this Associated Press report from Thursday went largely uncovered outside of Kansas:

A Democratic Party official says he's resigning his position in disgust over the state's rejection of a permit for two coal-fired power plants in southwest Kansas.

Lon Wartman was Finney County's Democratic Party chairman.

[...]

Wartman resigned in an angry e-mail, calling the state leaders of his own party "despicable."

Any question as to why this side of the story went virtually ignored?

Regardless of the answer, Americans on both sides of the manmade global warming debate should be concerned about this decision in Kansas.

Sure, the warm-mongers are celebrating a political victory. However, as environmental groups in the past two decades scared Americans away from nuclear power, the country moved to coal. Certainly, no one believes the Democrats currently in power are going to shift back to nuclear.

As such, if we begin preventing the creation of coal-fired plants, and continue eschewing nuclear facilities, how are Americans going to power their homes, offices, warehouses, and stores? This should be an even greater concern in our current global economy, for China and India aren't worried about such environmental issues.

Those losing sleep over the exportation of manufacturing jobs, as well as the already unfair economic and trade advantages these two growing behemoths enjoy, should be totally insomniac over the thought of China and India expanding their electricity production unfettered by carbon emissions concerns while America's output declines due to global warming fears.

Unfortunately, most warm-mongers aren't bothered by this; those that are foolishly believe the answer lies in wind and solar power. Yet, as evidenced by "not in my backyard" protests over Cape Cod's wind-farm - in one of the most liberal parts of the nation no less! - those hoping turbines are the answer are quite literally tilting at windmills.

If they're not, maybe every time a coal-fired power plant's license for construction is rejected for the absurd reason of cutting carbon emissions, a license for a wind-farm that will generate the same number of kilowatts MUST be approved.

Barring this, it seems a metaphysical certitude that electricity production in America is destined to not keep up with the needs and demands of the population. As a result, costs will rise, as will inflation and unemployment, and America, which used to be the largest economic power on the planet, might see its financial might crash like a Silicon Valley power grid on a 100 degree-day in August.

With that dreary image in our heads, folks on both sides of this debate need to recognize that the current media hysteria concerning global warming has reached a similar outlandish excess as the No Nukes movement before it, and that this decision in Kansas is "The China Syndrome" and Three Mile Island all over again.

Are we going to learn from recent history of just 28 years ago, and not establish energy policy out of fear of the unknown? Or, are we going to once again let an hysterical media scare us into decisions that could doom our country economically just a few years before baby boomers begin retiring?

Think about it: the first baby boomer has already applied for Social Security benefits (h/t NBer Nof). As such retirements escalate, the financial demands on our government - from Social Security to Medicare - are going to literally explode.

If the cost of electricity is similarly exploding at the same time, the economic ramifications could be disastrous.

With oil hitting $90 last week, can America really afford an energy policy based in hysteria?

Those interested in more on this decision should watch this video from WIBW-TV in Kansas.

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.


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Global Warming

Well, now they're actually betting on Global Warming....hope it's a nice warm winter in Kansas.  They're gonna need it when the lights go out.

This public idiocy has got to stop.  And I have a suggestion, how about with Florida's RINO governor who also supports this nonsense? 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

If South America and

If South America and Australia are any indications. We're in for a cold winter.

When the black out's hit... 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

baby boomers

Hey Noel, I thought the boomers were already starting to file?...were so screwed...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301997,00.html

"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat"         R. Reagan

Not only that, did you see

Not only that, did you see this?

Scroll down to Oct. 16...Cash for Boat Payments

(h/t Viking Pundit)

 

Nof

Nof,

Thanks. Amended! :-) ns

I will be 61

When Social Security goes bankrupt. Awesome.

Wait --

couldn't they have bought carbon-credit absolution from Al Gore? Who's in charge over there?

Kansas, of course.

Kansas, of course it's Kansas, the state that can't decide what constitutes a proper science curriculum for the public schools.

Well, Al-Gore HAS cast himself in an "Old Testament Prophet" role, so perhaps it's not surprising...

it seems as though it is

it seems as though it is impossible to get it across to the morons that "natural" sources of electric power are just not enough.

they just don't seem to get it through their heads that we went through the "conservation" route during the gasoline shortage years of the early seventies.

the wind people are putting in windmills as fast as they can build them but they aren't makeing much of a dent. plus other people are doing the nimby business to them.

solar power runs up against the indisputable fact that sunlight deposits only 746 watts per square meter of surface onto the ground, and thats only in the pheonix arizona area during the four hours centered around local appearant noon. thats theoretical maximum and generation losses (read system efficiency) are downhill from there. and remember it goes away about an hour before sundown and doesn't come back until about an hour after sunup.  

also battery type storage systems are not that good yet cost benefit wise.

commercial (power plant) output is in the neighbor hood of several Billion, with a BBBBBBBB, watts per square meter of plant.

for the liberal tree huggers among us 746 watts is seven incandescent light bulbs, about 14 flourescent bulbs, 1/4 of a refrigerator, 1/10 of a small electric floor heater, 1/4 of a large tv, 1/100 of an electric range. etc. etc. etc.. 

so no matter what the hollyweird and entrapenuers say, its nuke or something that burns coal or natural gas for another 50 years.

PK

lots of windmills are being turned off because they kill birds!

It seems that solar can effienctly supply only that amount of power that is used during the peak business hours of the day; which actually works out nicely.  There is a plan for a sun farm north of El Centro.  You are correct batteries are a worse cure than the disease. 

Why don't we have lots of mid-sized nuke plants along with the existing infra-structure to supply most of the baseline power?  It's fear-mongering, San Onofre shut down a working large reactor due only to political pressure.

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

That's "Ecodorks"

Thanks for the link.

The comments, though, are terrifying in their simple-minded stupidity.

Great!

So these idiots don't want new supplies of power built. So here's my solution. Kick there fat happy axx's off the grid. For those said fat, happy axx's here's a link that should help you on your adventure to the green utopia...good luck...and get cracken winters coming fast!

 http://www.otherpower.com/otherpowerfront.shtml

"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat"         R. Reagan

southern california edison

southern california edison built a solar power plant out in the desert between barstow and mojave about 20 years ago.

they actually put their money where the greenies mouths are.

the thing has lots of acres of mirrors in a circle around a tower which the mirrors focus sunlight on a ball at the top of the tower. the light boils a fluid in the tower which is pumped through a heat exchanger which boils water and runs turbines and ........

i knew a fellow who operated the thing and he liked the job because he didn't have to work nights.

but it was lots of miles from civilization.

i haven't heard that they have expanded it although if solar was such a big deal they would have by now. 

 

 

 

solar power and more

solar power and more solar

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

that plant is being dismantled bit by bit....

Mirrors from that plant are being dismantled and sold for military projects.

As PK was saying above, there isn't enough square footage in solar panels to generate the kind of energy needed by large populaces. I would have to convert my entire roof to solar panels to generate enough energy for a family of 4. Not only that, but, the cost to produce solar panels is still high due to the EPA requirements for mitigating the impact of using chemicals/heavy metals like arsenic, galium, lead, etc... (that's why vacuum tubes are being manufactured in China and the Soviet Union these days. They closed all the plants in the USA.)

Wind, while clean, is not nearly efficient enough to generate large amounts either. They require many acres and many towers to equal the output of a small coal or oil burning plant. Not only do wind farms have to be where the wind is (on tops of hills, mountains, edge of cliffs, etc.), but, they have to have the powerlines to transmit their energy back to where the people are. Here in San Diego, the people in the back country are up in arms about a proposed power transmission system which will have dozens of huge towers draped with high-power lines. Electricity towers don't fit in with their rural aesthetics even though many miles would be in totally un-incorporated areas of the county. Also, as botg was stating, battery technology is still being perfected and although they are getting more efficient, they are terribly hazardous and contain lots of acids and heavy metals, too. Hardly an eco-friendly combination. (As a side note on batteries, the mine where Toyota gets all the nickel for its hybrid batteries, is a wasteland. Nothing grows for miles where they've been pulling it out of the ground. Nearby mountains have collapsed because all the organic plant matter holding the soil in place has died.There is nothing to hold it in place anymore. NASA often uses the area for training because it is so similiar to the terrain on the moon.)

So, the environmentalists have decided that we - can't drill for oil off the coast of Florida, California, Oregon and Washington; can't drill in Alaska (Anwar); can't build coal burning plants (even though they've been made MUCH cleaner using catalytic conversion and other air scrubbing methods); can't and haven't built a nuclear plant in 30 years; can't and haven't built a major refinery in about 30 years too...

So, what does that leave us? Where one of my brothers lives, in rural New Mexico, they aren't allowed to use wood-burning stoves because there is an inversion layer between mountain ranges that holds in the smoke (similiar to the situation in the Lake Tahoe Basin where woodstoves were also prohibited at one time. I don't know if they still are or not). They are forced to use propane or LNG. They have acres of pinons and pines, but, are unable to use them.

I'm not a proponent of AGW, but, we could use less energy than we do now and save ourselves some money and gain a little independence. One thing would be to re-think the design of modern construction. Heavier insulation, subterranean designs, different building materials (stone, brick, sod, etc...) are all things to consider and aren't that costly...

 

I am extremely thankful I live in a place where the weather keeps me from having to pay exorbitant prices over the winter to stay alive (we do have really high gas prices, taxes, etc... but right now I'll take that trade). But, again, where does that leave us? The general population?

The environmentalists don't have the answers. "We don't know what you should do, BUT, you can't do THAT!"

I'm getting tired of them telling us what we CAN'T do...

the power people are into

the power people are into "economics of scale".

it takes the same number of people to run a 5gw plant as it takes to run a 25gw plant.

maintainence in the nuke world is actually not that much as they are built with really high quality materials to start with. yes they do have to clean things like condensers on a yearly basis but they do not have to renew refractory in furnace liners and stuff like that as the temperatures are not as high as in coal/natural gas setups.

the modern computer controls can watch as many as 40 sets of turbines, boilers ....... at once. it is only a matter of time before operators in nebraska run a generation station in arizona etc.

C

san onofre #1 (even though

san onofre #1 (even though it put out 1,000,000 pounds of steam per hour) had reached its end of useful life.

if you watch while driving by between LA and SanDiego you will notice that there are two monsters sitting on sites just to the south of where #1 was that are still churning.

C

#1

could and should be on line today along with 2 and 3

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

i thought that they

i thought that they decommissioned and destroyed #1 about 15 years ago.

C

it was decomissioned

years ago but was only done so by agreement based on political concerns.  When i say it could and should that is based upon not having spent almost a half a billion dollars to close it down

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

does the term "cut off

does the term "cut off their nose so that they may more efficiently stomp on their ****. " apply.

c

most likely

still it would be good if the utilities had to pay private producers market rates for excess power generated.  If i had the funds to put solar on my house and produced more than i use the excess would not paid for.

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

there is a law in

there is a law in california that provides for that.

the sad thing is that the reverse charges are only about a cup of coffees' worth a month.

as i've heard it

the law only requires payment up to the amount of electricity used not any excess produced.  That at least was Hedgecocks contention when he had the solar put on his South Mission home.  Of course the utilities should be able to charge transmission fees etc.

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

botg: i read your

botg:

i read your reference and it was quite interesting. i noticed that the four plants that had been decomissioned were in actuality not that big by todays standards.

my previous employer owned a barge crane that lifted the reactor for #1 out of a freighter and placed it on a barge in the long beach harbor during the middle sixties.

a contracctor towed the barge down to the site, grounded it, built a ramp to it and with a 10,000 wheel :-)) trailer dragged it to its installation spot.

there is the appearance that all we  do currently is argue with nit wits about doing things that the old timers simply rolled up their sleeves and did. it could be that the politicians have absolutely no knowledge of engineering at all.

 

PK

did you note that #1 generated 450 MW while #2 & 3 generate over 1000 MW each?

i work as an electrician in San Diego, Orange, LA, and Riverside counties and have talked with people who built these things.  The info i get is #1 was running great when shut down. 

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

botg:  not widely

botg: 

 not widely known in the world of big mouths is that fact that even the highest quality superalloys have a problem of degrading under the radioactivity that is in these things on the reactor side. however it takes a long time.

as in pitting in the varius tubes and pipes. 

there comes a day with the older nukes that its a real good idea to shut down and drag it off to the scrap yard.

they can be repaired.

however in order to do that you have to have a massive number of workers in the particular trade do the work. each man goes in and works for ~1 hour and then NEVER comes back. yes they do keep massive records of exposure and names and .......

now in the last 15 years the reactor builders and physicists have made houmoungous strides in construction but so have the shouters and screamers.

by the way i read your reference about the solar plants that are proposed.

need i mention wind storms, dust storms, and rain and not scratching the collection surfaces when washing off the stuff from wind storms, dust storms, and rain. particularly because these places have to be in places where there isn't much water.

those guys are also talking about "stirling cycle engines" pistons doing .....

in the mechanical world cylinders, pistons, con rods and crankshafts are old style small capacity installations. i would not even consider a stirling cycle (which appears to have many very close associations with  perpetual motion machines)  until someone figures out how to incorporate turbines into the design. its just like going from internal combustion engines to gas turbines. things that spin enjoy the advantages of much much higher capacity and much much lower maintainence costs than reciprocating equipment.

i would also point out that san onofre (a fifty year old design) puts out 26 times the power per acre more than these admittedly blue sky proposals.

C

 

 

  

by the way, when they

by the way,

when they demolish these things they even have to watch the scrap.

many years ago a mexican steel mill got a hold of a bunch or radioactive steel scrap and before you knew it half the houses built after that within 100 miles of the mexican border over on the texas new mexico side had radio active rebar in their foundations.

that was quite a mess.

PK

Wow, reading your conversation with botg makes me feel like the little kid at the adult party.

You all obviously know what you're talking about.

Fascinating stuff. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

thank you mam. c

thank you mam.

c

yup

there are practical concerns in any production.  What percentage 'green' power generation has been mandated by the feds?  Also, i couldn't find the link to the solar facility by el centro but it was not the individual array type in the link i found.  The solar thermal is more like it.  Of course we are also left with the nasty stuff used in the panels and how do you dispose of them?  Same for nuclear (and the batteries from hybrid cars)

There is no free lunch

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

also PK

i remember reading or hearing about an alternative energy storage method.  (done with fedral subsidies)  The ploy was to use power during the day (when photo-voltaic is available) to pump water up hill and at night use the water to run hydro-electric generators.  Wasteful? yes, but perhaps better than batteries.  Storing energy is always wasteful like hydrogen cars where it takes considerably more energy to isolate the hydrogen than is produced by it. 

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

i guess that the point that

i guess that the point that i was trying to make way back in the beginning was that there is not enough capacity in "natural" sources of power to support our society in the manner that we currently live in. 

our society is based on a cycle of continous growth.

as i see it we will have to build nuke plants until fusion comes on line in about a century. there just isn't any way around it.

there are certain sources of fuels like oil shale, wave motion, etc.etc. etc. but as one of these comes to the fore the environmentalists will make a very strong attempt to stop their use.

i guess the soloution is to make massive attitude adjustments to the environmentalists.

C

agreed PK

: )

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

thank you botg. say good

thank you botg.

say good night.

C

good night C

 

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

The irony here is that the

The irony here is that the same environMENTAList liberals who cheer this decision will turn around and complain that there are no new non-minimum wage jobs being created.

 

 

 

Just the beginning.

This is just the beginning. Everything "liberals" touch with their feel good, ignorant nonsense ( education, government, law, society in general) turns citizen against citizen and ultimately sets America back, not ahead as the "progressives" claim. Meanwhile,  they pick the pockets of hard working people. The environmental and GW crowd are prime examples of the destructive nature of these ignoramuses. Sad.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

From the heartland to Oz

"The department's staff had recommended issuing the air quality permits, but Roderick L. Bremby, the secretary of the department..."

Roderick L Bremby - Holds a masters degree in public administration from KU, where he completed an undergraduate degree in psychology and communication studies.

Show me the environmental science credentials!!!

Bremby also completed postgraduate study at:

The Brookings Institution - Brookings is a liberal think tank (e.g., Baltimore Sun, 8/9/98; Cincinnati Enquirer, 7/30/98; Dallas Morning News, 7/1/98; AP, 5/29/98). CBS News correspondent Bernard Goldberg even publicly chastised one of his colleagues for not tagging Brookings as liberal in his reporting (Wall Street Journal op-ed, 2/13/96).

The Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs in Austin, TX - No comment necessary.

Where's the science?

Bremby was appointed by Democrat Govenor Kathleen Sebelius who was named Time Magazine's top 5 Governors and in 2006, Governor Sebelius was elected chair of the Democratic Governors Association.  And then there is this; Sebelius believes Kansas must take advantage of its enormous potential for renewable energy production. She’s working with business and community leaders, utilities, and local governments to promote wind energy and biofuels production in Kansas, as well as expanded energy conservation efforts.

Is Kansas turning  into the land of Oz? 

No, ac...

When the ex & I were stationed at Riley in the early 80's....the Kansas tourist board had ads running....it's....

The land of Ah's. 

Went like this.   Ahhhhhhhh, Ahhhhhhh, Kansas (which sounded just like a sneeze).

Que'lle idiots. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

I hate Liberals. There is

I hate Liberals. There is no place for them in our society. They lie, and lie so much, that many of them believe the lies as truth. Even when people present truth to them... they can no longer tell what truth is.

It's been a fact for a long time, that Liberals have been throwing out so many lies to obviewscate the truth that it is difficult to see the truth through all those lies.

We're losing this battle people. They continue to win at every turn. We don't have less regulation, we have more. We never do with less spending, we always have more. And until I see some useless government agencies like the Kansas Department of Health and Environment get disbanded, I will know that we are always losing.

You people realize that at some point, the only option will be war right? There will be a point where we will be under mob rule. Where the lion share of people in this country will be on the dole, and will never vote against that, which will mean that the country as we want it to be will officially be dead and the only way to return our country to the original intent in the Constitution will be by force.

I don't want to see another civil war in this country... so I have become active in politics in my local area and I'm doing my best to convince as many people as possible to vote against the Republican in my district. In fact, I think I might run in the Eighth Congressional District of Washington against incumbent Dave Reichert since he voted to override the President's veto on the SCHIP program. I know he's a RHINO.

____________________________________________________

"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities." ~ Thomas Paine

is atlas getting ready to

is atlas getting ready to shrug?

c

Hopefully this isn't over.

I'm actually kind of glad this happened. This is a perfect example of environmental idiocy stopping economic and technological progress for absolutely no good reason. Hopefully, the residents of Kansas feel the same way and next election they'll realize their current governor is more concerned about making Al Gore happy than looking out for the economic health of their state.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I understand that most of the electricity from these new plants was going to go to other states, specifically Colorado, but still some of it was for Kansas. So where's Colorado going to get their electricity now? What about Kansas?

You know, mark my words ...

You know, mark my words ... This will get to be like the Harry Reid/Rush Limbaugh thing ... The people are only going to take so much of this, and then look out ...

Another great victory for

Another great victory for the environmentalist. They were also able to block construction of levees in New Orleans in order to save the wetland.

Great work guys.  

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

Barring this, it seems a

Barring this, it seems a metaphysical certitude that electricity If they're not, maybe every time a coal-fired power plant's license for construction is rejected for the absurd reason of cutting carbon emissions, a license for a wind-farm that will generate the same number of kilowatts MUST be approved.

That is the crux of why electrical rates will skyrocket in the coming years.  As power consumption continues to rise, that forces the utilities to use natural gas to make up the difference.  As more and more companies use gas, the demand will over take supply and hence the price of natural gas will rise in response.  So not only will the price of natural gas rise as the utility consumption competes for this energy source, then come winter time, the price of natural gas will soar during each cold snap.  

Here is where the simplitons Dems really screw up, when demand overtakes supply prices don't simply go up geometrically, the go up exponentially during a shortage (inelastic demand).

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.

Spinning the Wheels

 All this Gorebal Warming stuff is just going to have us spinning our wheels on solutions to our energy problems. The people that are pushing this AGW agenda will cause this country to continue to import more oil than we need to and be behind the curve on becoming energy independent. 

They have CEO's quaking in their boots, trying to make their companies look "green" and accomplishing nothing.  They have Congress looking into passing taxes, that will take away from the economy, and for what? 

They have local and state governments wasting valuable resources trying to prove just how much they love the environment by doing stuff like this.  In the meantime, for this country to become energy independent, we need every resource at hand, including coal, which we have in abundance. 

SOmeone needs to propose a plan to hold these people accountable, if their theories are proven to be false.

Democrats: Specializing in "high tech lynching" since 1987.

"CEO's quaking in their

"CEO's quaking in their boots, trying to make their companies look "green" and accomplishing nothing."

I disagree. they are doing something. Prices will go up.You and I will be paying more for the products we need or want.

I was looking at a product last night. And the company was bragging about going green. Planting trees. How many of those trees am I paying for? So they call feel good. 

Being I paid for some of those trees. Can I later cut them down and use the firewood? 

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

just a thought

allow permits for coal fired generation for all.

Deny and rescind permits for all private jets

Seems a better way to limit CO2?

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

B

B,

Fascinating concept, actually. Maybe carbon emissions should be taxed and regulated based on the number of people who benefit from them.

Let's look at the emissions of a coal-fired plant, and spread them across the population that receives said energy. Now, compare that to those on private jets, in limosines, residing in 20,000 square foot homes, etc.

Of course, we'd have to do this without regard to carbon offsets, which folks like Gore rely upon to emit as much CO2 as they want, and the public buys into it hook, line, and sinker.

Regardless, you've raised an interesting point on a Saturday evening. ns

Noel

you bring to mind another interesting thought, we carbon tax square footage of housing with a 1000 sq ft per person exemption.  Family of four gets up to 4000 sq ft with no tax.  Second, third, etc homes get no exemption (well perhaps any dwelling less than 1000 sq ft gets no tax)

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

B

B,

Exactly. And, once again, no carbon offsetting! That'll teach these limousine liberals INCLUDING Al Gore!!! ns

Noel, I think this could be a good thing in the long-term.

Perhaps now the legions of the DumbmAsses that we currently find ourselves awash in will now sit-up and take notice of the sheer lunacy of the nut-job, anti-progress environmentalists, particularly in the area of their all-out-of-proportion influence on public policy.

Particularly when their lights begin to go out.

Sadly, that is what it usually takes when dealing with the average person these days.