
When climate change activists Sheryl Crow and Laurie David went on their "Stop Global Warming College Tour" last spring, media sycophants followed their every move reporting their exploits on almost a daily basis.
With that in mind, if a serious, scientific error were discovered in the global warming children's book co-authored by David, shouldn't that be newsworthy as well?
As you ponder, Robert Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute published his findings Thursday concerning a material error in "The Down-to-Earth Guide to Global Warming" which media seem destined to ignore for the benefit of the climate change movement (emphasis added throughout):
On page 18 of Laurie David's new children's global warming book, there is a glaring scientific error.
[...]
The more the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the higher the temperature climbed. The less carbon dioxide, the more the temperature fell. You can see this relationship for yourself by looking at the graph:
As compared to the false allegations being made by media accusing President Bush and Gen. David Petraeus of cooking the books concerning what's going on in Iraq, David was verifiably fudging the numbers:
What really makes their graph "amazing" is that it's dead wrong. In order to contrive a visual representation for their false central claim that CO2 controls temperature change, David and co-author Cambria Gordon present unsuspecting children with an altered temperature and CO2 graph that falsely reverses the relationship found in the scientific literature.
The actual temperature curve in the chart was switched with the actual CO2 curve. That is, the authors mislabeled the blue curve as temperature and mislabeled the red curve as CO2 concentration. The real data show that the red curve represents the temperature changes over geological time, followed (lagged) by changes in CO2 concentrations represented by the blue curve. Thus, children tracing the properly labeled curves from right to left (from past to present) can easily see the real, science-based relationship (particularly clear in the interval between 500,000 and 150,000 years ago).
Here's the corrected chart:
Will media hold David's feet to the fire concerning this factual misrepresentation?
I for one am not holding my breath.
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.















Comments Policy
The "CO2 lags
September 13, 2007 - 12:41 ET by RottenHamThe "CO2 lags temperature" argument is a standard global warming denier myth.
Climate myths: Ice cores show CO2 increases lag behind temperature rises, disproving the link to global warming
Ice cores from Antarctica show that at the end of recent ice ages, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere usually started to rise only after temperatures had begun to climb. There is uncertainty about the timings, partly because the air trapped in the cores is younger than the ice, but it appears the lags might sometimes have been 800 years or more.
This proves that rising CO2 was not the trigger that caused the initial warming at the end of these ice ages – but no climate scientist has ever made this claim. It certainly does not challenge the idea that more CO2 heats the planet.
Laurie David certainly should correct the graph and she should also explain how deniers misinterpret the data and try to mislead people.
You're too funny
September 13, 2007 - 12:46 ET by mattmYou've been reading too many erroneous kid's books.
RH
September 13, 2007 - 13:04 ET by Noel SheppardRH,
Referring to me or anybody else here as a "denier" because we disagree with you is offensive and insulting. Stop it now or you will be banned. There will not be a second warning.
In case you can't figure it out, the proper phrase for the masses of people who don't agree with your view on this issue is skeptic, or, if you are British, sceptic. You won't be told again. ns
I trust that you'll
September 13, 2007 - 13:18 ET by RottenHamI trust that you'll similarly police anyone here who calls me a "socialist," "alarmist," or any other derogatory name, right?
Will you post an updated version of your article that corrects your misinterpretation of the CO2/temperature lag?
Socialist?
September 13, 2007 - 13:24 ET by azholmesHow is "Socialist" derogatory?
Are you really willing to bet your life that socialism will work (this time)?
Are you really willing to
September 13, 2007 - 13:34 ET by RottenHamWho's talking about socialism? I thought we were talking about the CO2/temperature lag.
You are
September 13, 2007 - 14:15 ET by azholmesSee your comment directly above...
Are you really willing to bet your life that socialism will work (this time)?
I trust that you'll
September 13, 2007 - 13:29 ET by MightyMouthI trust that you'll similarly police anyone here who calls me a "socialist," "alarmist," or any other derogatory name, right?
Not speaking for Noel, but I suspect he is referring to "un-justified" derogatory names.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
How is calling someone that
September 13, 2007 - 13:31 ET by TheGingermanHow is calling someone that DENIES the existence of global warming a DENIER, unjustifiable?
I don't think anyone is
September 13, 2007 - 13:39 ET by MightyMouthI don't think anyone is "denying" Global Warming, they are just "skeptical" about the anthropogenic impact.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Saying global warming does
September 13, 2007 - 13:41 ET by TheGingermanSaying global warming does not exist is, by defnition, denying GW
How about saying that
September 13, 2007 - 13:47 ET by Jack BauerHow about saying that mankind has no affect on a three billion year old climate.
Does that either deny or confirm fluctuations in the planet's "climate?"
1 result for:
September 13, 2007 - 13:49 ET by TheGingerman1 result for: Deny]
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source
Main Entry: de·ny
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: de·nied; de·ny·ing
1 : to declare untrue <a party…shall admit or deny the averments —Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 8(b)> —compare AVOID
2 : to refuse to grant <denied the motion for a new trial>
Are you being deliberately
September 13, 2007 - 14:33 ET by Jack BauerAre you being deliberately dense?
I'll repeat, how does the hypothosis that mankind as a species has no affect on the Earth's climate either deny or confirm any natural fluctuations in a climate that existed for a few billion years before the genus homo sapien sapien appeared?
Heh
September 13, 2007 - 22:36 ET by PopularTechJack,
It is like they are preprogrammed with responses from one of those sites "how to speak to a climate denier". I bet they have this option:
If you cannot find a response from this list call them a denier again but this time define 'denier' from the dictionary. They cannot answer questions not on the list which is why you get the circular dismissive arguments repetitively.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
It is like they are
September 14, 2007 - 09:50 ET by RottenHam"Skeptical" arguments are so unoriginal that they are easily catalogued. These same fallacies linger year after year so it's no surprise that someone has taken the time to provide a boilerplate debunking.
What question do you want answered?
Skeptical about AGW not GW,
September 13, 2007 - 13:48 ET by MightyMouthSkeptical about AGW not GW, please pay closer attention. There is a distinction.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
GM
September 13, 2007 - 13:55 ET by Noel SheppardGM,
If I say one plus one doesn't equal two, I am denying a fact. Folks who don't believe man is responsible for warming the planet are disagreeing with an as yet unproven hypothesis. Regardless of the supposed "consensus," no scientist has yet to prove that man is responsible for the relatively slight warming of the planet in the past century.
As such, calling a skeptic a denier is insulting, for it suggests we're debating the existence of something factual. Regardless of your views on this subject, and what you believe, AGW has not yet been proven as fact.
Of course, if you think I'm wrong, and can prove it is a fact, why not do so here, and make yourself $100,000. Alas, be advised that up to this point, not one of the people on your side of this debate has sent proof to Milloy qualifying for his prize.
Of course, that's not surprising, as folks like Gore refuse to debate any of the people on my side concerning this matter. Does it bother you that the leading voice espousing AGW refuses to debate anyone on the issue?
Frankly, if folks on my side were challenged to a debate and refused, I'd be questioning their veracity on the subject. But, that's just me. ns
NS
September 13, 2007 - 14:01 ET by TheGingermanNS,
I apologize if I came off as confrontational. That was not my intent.
I understand where you're coming from, I just think in light of many of the other names that get thrown about around here, denier is easily one of the most tame and shouldn't be grounds for banning.
By your logic woudn't you have to agree that it's offensive to call those that support AGW, alarmists?
You yourself have repeatedly called these people alarmists. What's the difference?
GM
September 13, 2007 - 14:10 ET by Noel SheppardGM,
Well, alarmist is defined as "a person who tends to raise alarms, esp. without sufficient reason, as by exaggerating dangers or prophesying calamities."
With that in mind, since AGW is indeed an unproven hypothesis, and the calamities being forecast by folks like Al Gore are themselves hypothetical stemming from unproven climate models, he is indeed an alarmist, as is anyone espousing similar calamities.
Make sense?
By contrast, "denier" has an extremely negative connotation, as most recently it has been used for folks who deny the Holocaust occurred. I'm sorry if I would prefer not being linked to such lunatics. Fair enough? ns
With that in mind, since
September 13, 2007 - 14:14 ET by RottenHamNo sale. AGW has been proven to such a degree that it's not seriously debated in professional scientific circles anymore. Taking the consensus as a given is not evidence of alarmism. Furthermore, if you really think the science is so uncertain, then you must admit the possiblity that people like Gore are UNDERSTATING the bad effects and are, therefore, not "alarmist" at all. Your use of the term "alarmist" assumes a greater knowledge of future events than you could possibly have.
And where is AGW proven?
September 13, 2007 - 14:51 ET by Dan The Man 2And where is AGW proven? There are many holes in teh AGW, one taht comes to mind is teh measuring techniques being used and the recent flap over measuring stations placement. Then we come to teh fact taht none has won the challenge yet and gotten the 100K prize.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
There are many holes in
September 13, 2007 - 14:56 ET by RottenHamThat cuts both ways. If you're going to argue that the measurements are wrong, that means we could have warmed even more than is currently claimed. Not all doubt cuts your way.
The problem with the challenge isn't part 1; it's part 2. Nobody can prove what the costs of anything will be in 2100.
Exactly
September 13, 2007 - 21:21 ET by TocanoThat cuts both ways. If you're going to argue that the measurements
are wrong, that means we could have warmed even more than is currently
claimed. Not all doubt cuts your way.
Nobody can prove what the costs of anything will be in 2100.
That's exactly what we're saying. We're skeptical. Since nothing is proven, we are asking questions about 1) Is the warming measured accurate? 2) Are we even the ones causing the warming and 3) Would the future impacts of warming be good or bad? and 4) If bad, how bad?
But the other side of the debate have concluded as a fact that not only is warming happening, it's because of us, and it's going to get worse and we'll all suffer horribly because of it. Then their next logical fallacy is to assume that based on their first conclusion, we must spend potentially trillions of dollars and pass draconian legislation in order to stop an approaching disaster.
Our complaint is with the double standard about this theory: We merely questioning (yet associated with Holocost deniers); them pounding the table claiming fact and calling for the incrimination of those of us that question it.
Also,
September 13, 2007 - 15:03 ET by azholmesThere's that little problem with the other planets in the solar system. Seems their climates are changing also, with no help from humans.
Let the hand-waving begin...
Are you really willing to bet your life that socialism will work (this time)?
http://environment.newscient
September 13, 2007 - 15:06 ET by RottenHamhttp://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11642
Thanks...
September 13, 2007 - 15:54 ET by azholmesIt was getting warm in here!
Are you really willing to bet your life that socialism will work (this time)?
I guess so. However,
September 13, 2007 - 14:23 ET by TheGingermanI guess so.
However, the negative connotation of denier does not change the meaning of the word.
To deny is to state that something is untrue. This is what those that don't believe in AGW are doing. So I still think it's fair to call them deniers, the same way I think it's fair for you to call the others, alarmists.
Either way, sorry for the nitpicking. It's not that big of a deal :)
I will adhere to your ruling in the future.
There comes a point where
September 13, 2007 - 13:42 ET by RottenHamThere comes a point where the evidence is so strong that skepticism is no longer appropriate. The majority of the professional climate science community passed that line long ago. Those who continue to cling to their "skepticism" do so for ideological, not scientific, reasons.
Wrong. There is never a
September 13, 2007 - 13:45 ET by Jack BauerWrong. There is never a point when scientists should cease to be skeptical. Skepticism is the default position of science.
There's a difference between
September 13, 2007 - 13:51 ET by RottenHamThere's a difference between reasonable and unreasonable skepticism. Sadly, much global warming "skepticism" is based on a standard collection of factual and conceptual errors as illustrated in Noel Sheppard's lastest post here. Those are not a rational basis for skepticism.
There's a difference
September 13, 2007 - 14:12 ET by MightyMouthThere's a difference between reasonable and unreasonable skepticism.
ROFLMAO!
Looks like RottingHam is the "decider" of what is "reasonable" and "unreasonable". TDF!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Wrong. Skepticism is the
September 13, 2007 - 14:21 ET by Jack BauerWrong. Skepticism is the default position of the scientist.
There's a difference between
September 13, 2007 - 14:38 ET by KarmaThere's a difference between reasonable and unreasonable belief in AGW.
Sadly, much (anthropogic) global warming "belief" is based on a standard
collection of factual and conceptual errors as illustrated in Al Gore's lastest film. Those are not a rational basis for AGW "belief".
Scientists are still very
September 13, 2007 - 15:14 ET by rwestScientists are still very skeptical of the causes of global warming, and thousands are doing skeptical research on it as we speak. The public debate in no way resembles the scientific debate. The politicians, pundits, and other non-scientists are the ones without doubt.
Scientists are still very
September 13, 2007 - 15:21 ET by RottenHamThe AR4 clearly says that modern global warming is driven by humans. There is no plausible natural explanation for it that has withstood scrutiny in the scientific literature. It's not the Sun; it's not volcanoes; it's not periodicities in the Earth's orbit.
Liberals are still very
September 13, 2007 - 15:54 ET by JungusSo, scientists do not have a plausible natural explination. Too bad for you they don't have a plausible human explination either. Was it chlorophloralcarbons? CO2? Bovine gas? If you have the research, collect the $100,000 from JunkScience.com.
Too bad for you the only science that I have seen on this (outside of the tin-foil variety) shows that volcanoes, the sun, and yes even the Earth's orbit have individually more of an impact on Earth climate than all of mankind.
So, will you believe your You-Tube videos or your lying eyes?
So, scientists do not
September 13, 2007 - 16:00 ET by RottenHamActually, they do. Human activities emit carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases which trap heat and warm the Earth. The rise in greenhouse gas concentrations, the increase in temperatures, the pattern of warming, and the greenhouse gas inventories are all consistent with this explanation.
To show that those things are driving modern global warming, you must demonstrate that there is some measureable change in their values over the relevant time interval. Too bad for you there isn't. There is no upward solar irradiance trend since around 1970 yet temperatures continue to climb. There is no increase in volcanism nor has the Earth lurched in its orbit. Failure to provide evidence for these alternative explanations is why scientists almost universally reject them.
Indeed.
September 13, 2007 - 16:21 ET by JungusYes, humans to kick out carbon and I did mention that. However you did not tell me that we create more of a greenhouse effect (well, actually a warmer climate) than the other explinations. And as to the most significant correlation, that would be solar radience cycles that unlike the carbon dioxide in the graph reliably precedes a hotter climate. Much like longer days in summer.
No climb in solar radience? So what, if the radience is already above normal that would still drive temperatures up. But lets face it, if my ideas on why the climate is warming fall flat based on lack of evidence. So do yours.
Universally? Is that like a consensus?
However you did not tell
September 13, 2007 - 16:30 ET by RottenHamI did. I said there is no upward trend in solar irradiance today nor are volcanoes more active nor has the Earth lurched in its orbit. Therefore, we are enhancing the greenhouse effect and warming the planet. Not the Sun, not volcanoes.
There is no upward trend in solar irradiance today so you can't blame the Sun.
No. It would drive them up until the irradiance trend leveled off. That's why solar irradiance changes cannot explain warming since then.
No, they don't. The evidence is on my side, not yours.
Yes.
Did did didn't did.
September 13, 2007 - 17:12 ET by JungusI did.
Really? All you said is there is no change in volcanoes, solar stuff etc. You did not show how that non-climbing level of effect is any less than man's influence. You didn't even address it other than to say "I did".
There is no upward trend in solar irradiance today so you can't blame the Sun. ...
No. It would drive them up until the irradiance trend leveled off.
The first part is no good without the second. But now you must prove to me that the irradiance trend has leveled off. And you didn't.
The evidence is on my side, not yours.
Not so fast! There is evidence of man's climate warming affect yes, but there is also the evidence of man's climate cooling affect in smog and particulates. But if you can't proove that the sun is not still raising temperatures (and again you havn't done that yet) then how can you prove that the sun isn't a bigger contributer to global warming than mankind? Don't use "because I said so". All I have to do is cite the mideval warming period to prove that the sun has out done mankind before in global warming. Unless you can deny that...
Yes.
Yeah, I agree too.
Really? All you said is
September 13, 2007 - 17:40 ET by RottenHamHow you think an unvarying climate forcing can cause warming is unclear. For the Sun, check out Solanki's 2004 paper:
For volcanoes, the US Geological Survey says they're a non-factor:
I don't know that I can make it any clearer than that. It isn't the Sun and it isn't volcanoes.
It's not me saying so; it's the evidence.
You'd have to demonstrate 1) the MWP was caused by the Sun; and 2) the MWP was global. Both of those are debatable.
Very good.
September 13, 2007 - 18:15 ET by JungusYou have cited 2 sites that I would consider reasonable. I will pick through thier information to make sure that my points are there too.
From the Max Planck Society: However, researchers at the MPS have shown that the Sun can be
responsible for, at most, only a small part of the warming over the
last 20-30 years.
This can still be greater than human activities however it does say: Although the changes in the two values tend to follow each other for
roughly the first 120 years, the Earth’s temperature has risen
dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not
appreciably increased in this time. I want to double check that brightness = infrared or heat radiation. Going on: The number of sunspots varies over an 11-year activity
period, which in turn is subject to longer term variations. For
example, in the second half of the 17th century, there were hardly any
sunspots at all. Uh oh, this opens up that we may still be in a higher than normal range. These data show clearly that the Sun is in a state of unusually high activity, for about the last 60 years. So this showes that there could be multiple cycles here, both short and long operating at the same time.
Beaten by your own source? Another period of enhanced solar activity, but with
substantially fewer sunspots than now, occurred in the Middle Ages from
1100 to 1250. At that time, a warm period reigned over the Earth, as
the Vikings established flourishing settlements in Greenland. It looks like my warm period was global. Thanks for the link!
Here is Rotton's moneyshot: "Just how large this role is, must still be
investigated, since, according to our latest knowledge on the
variations of the solar magnetic field, the significant increase in the
Earth’s temperature since 1980 is indeed to be ascribed to the
greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide," says Prof. Sami K.
Solanki, solar physicist and director at the Max Planck Institute for
Solar System Research. The 1980 is hitting me as strange, the physicist does blame CO2, but at 1/2 of a degree of celcius warming since 1950 (would it be fair to start with 1/4 C since 1975, k-thks)? This seams a little speedy to lay global change by humans on less temperature change than .25C. And now my nitpick to you: Ascribed. It means lacking anything definitive throwing in a likely possibility. ( ASCRIBE suggests an inferring or conjecturing of cause http://www.m-w.com/d...)
As for volcanoes, they do kick out other gasses than CO2. The USGS only showed CO2 ratios.
Congratulations!! You have finally shown that global warming is less likely to be done by the sun.
Uh oh, this opens up that
September 13, 2007 - 20:48 ET by RottenHamIf the solar irradiance trend leveled off decades ago, it cannot be responsible for warming today. Solanki says that explicitly.
Hardly. Modern warming is inconsistent with solar heating. A hotter Sun would tend to warm the stratosphere. However, the stratosphere has cooled. This is consistent with greenhouse warming, not solar. That's one more reason Solanki says it's not the Sun.
Not so fast. Here's another link for you: http://environment.n...
The magnitude and pattern of warming is consistent with manmade greenhouse gases and no other plausible natural cause.
If you want to argue that volcanoes are more active today than they were 150 years ago, I'll gladly consider whatever evidence you care to provide.
Thanks!
Modern global warming? Like
September 13, 2007 - 16:00 ET by Clear thinkerModern global warming? Like my values, I will stick to good old fashion global warming. You know, the 4 billion year old variety.
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
Times have changed. Unlike
September 13, 2007 - 16:02 ET by RottenHamTimes have changed. Unlike with "old" global warming, there are now six billion people digging up old carbon and pumping it into the atmosphere. This has never happened before in the history of the planet so old explanations don't cut it.
So what you are saying
September 13, 2007 - 16:11 ET by Clear thinkerSo what you are saying is.... the earth's population is just being "progressive", right?
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
Think positively - choose life!
September 13, 2007 - 16:19 ET by TruthMongerThe 21st century will develop technologies that allow 20 or 30 billion people to live here just fine...
But also remember we will be colonizing space - and probably also meet some aliens that can provide long-distance travel technology to other Earth-type planets...
Glad Galileo didn't
September 13, 2007 - 14:21 ET by dvdaughtryGlad Galileo didn't subcribe to that.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
DVD
September 13, 2007 - 14:24 ET by Noel SheppardDVD,
So am I! These folks who believe scientific facts are determined by a show of hands are truly amazing. Frankly, I'm not sure why anyone bothers responding to such a person. ns
It's a good thing nobody
September 13, 2007 - 15:09 ET by RottenHamIt's a good thing nobody here judges scientific facts that way. They're judged on the evidence. When that evidence is examined, "skeptics" lose.
For me, Noel, I'm just suspicious....
September 13, 2007 - 15:15 ET by RJ"RottenHam?" "cleverpig?" Both pushing AGW?
Coincidence? I don't think so....has anyone seen them at the same time?
Or, maybe, DU, Kos, or MoveOn just farrowed them in the same litter.... ;^>
Not speaking for Noel,
September 13, 2007 - 13:35 ET by RottenHamI see. You can call me names but I can't call you names. Is that how conservatives define fairness?
Since when is calling
September 13, 2007 - 13:43 ET by Jack BauerSince when is calling someone a socialist, name calling?
Former Brit PM, Tony Blair, calls himself a "socialist."
The current British Prime Minister Gordon Brown calls himself a socialist. The British Labor Party describes itself as a socialist party.
You know very well that the term "denier" is meant to evoke those who deny that the attempted genocide and holocaust of Jews during WW2 ever happened.
And therfore to equate those who do not buy the theory that mankind is repsonsible for so-called global warming with those vile people who deny six million Jews perished in the concentration camps.
Since when is calling
September 13, 2007 - 13:48 ET by RottenHamThey call themselves that. There's a difference between labeling yourself and being labeled by others.
If you find this so objectionable, why do you then try to equate those who accept the weight of the evidence and the scientific consensus with socialists?
I know you majored in
September 13, 2007 - 13:57 ET by Jack BauerI know you majored in Pretzel Logic, but as it was you who called "socialist" a "derogatory" term it seems only fair to point out that it is not considered to be in general parlance.
For instance, I have just checked my OED and it confirms my suspicion. It is not listed as derogatory, unlike such disgusting trems such as "nigger," "spic," and "dago."
There it is.
September 13, 2007 - 16:00 ET by JungusIf you find this so objectionable, why do you then try to equate those
who accept the weight of the evidence and the scientific consensus with
socialists?
So you do equate those who choose to question the accuracy of theories with holocaust denyers.
The "difference" RottenHam is
September 13, 2007 - 13:59 ET by RJthat the word "denier" has been used, historically, for "holocaust deniers." Every time the word is used against others it has an ugly connotation that goes beyond the immediate debate.
But I suspect you and the Warmers already understand that....which is why you like the taunt so much.
You seem to want to define
September 13, 2007 - 13:50 ET by MightyMouthYou seem to want to define things according to your own agenda, regardless of what is posted here. So, take it however you see fit. We already know that you will as a liberal.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Please tell me when can we
September 13, 2007 - 13:45 ET by RottenHamPlease tell me when can we expect to see a corrected version of your article.
Thanks.
Uh... what part needs
September 13, 2007 - 14:11 ET by MightyMouthUh... what part needs correcting? Noel pointed out that the chart is wrong and you agreed.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The whole part about CO2
September 13, 2007 - 14:16 ET by RottenHamThe whole part about CO2 lagging temperature as evidence that CO2 cannot raise temperature is incorrect.
You mean it's in dispute.
September 13, 2007 - 14:23 ET by MightyMouthYou mean it's in dispute. Your link says that the lag times are "uncertain". That would mean it's still "debateable", right?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
It means that one cannot say
September 13, 2007 - 14:26 ET by RottenHamIt means that one cannot say with great certainty that CO2 lags temperature. However, that does not in any way imply that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas and that it can't raise global temperatures.
Noel didn't say CO2 is "not
September 13, 2007 - 14:29 ET by MightyMouthNoel didn't say CO2 is "not a greenhouse gas" or that "it can't raise global temperatures" . Retract your request for correction at once.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
If you follow the Noel's
September 13, 2007 - 14:39 ET by RottenHamIf you follow the Noel's link, the article says:
That's incorrect. CO2 can cause temperature changes. If Noel wants to distance himself from this incorrect claim, I will rescind my demand.
But in context with the
September 13, 2007 - 14:56 ET by MightyMouthBut in context with the climate records CO2 HAS lagged temperature changes, even though the lag times are uncertain. The historical data are correct and in no way challanges your contention that "CO2 can cause temperature changes". All it is saying is that temperature changes historically preceed CO2 increases. Not vice a versa as the chart originally claimed. You are now (and have been throughout the thread) being intellectually dishonest.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Yet, challenging the
September 13, 2007 - 14:59 ET by RottenHamYet, challenging the contention that "CO2 can cause temperature changes" is exactly how this data is being misused. That's the part I want Noel to correct. To use the CO2/temperature lag as evidence against modern AGW--as "skeptics do--is intellectually dishonest.
Your bone of contention is
September 13, 2007 - 21:28 ET by KhyrisYour bone of contention is a grammatical affectation.
Try this sentence instead:
"The man came home after his wife was shot, and could not have shot his wife."
The sentence does NOT imply that under no circumstances can any man ever shoot his wife. It is contextual to THESE circumstances.
WHEN CO2 lags temperature as indicated in the referenced papers, it can not have CAUSED the initial temperature jump.
He never said "CO2 can NEVER cause temperature increases."
His logic is sound, your semantics is not.
WHEN CO2 lags
September 13, 2007 - 21:30 ET by RottenHamTrue. It could not have caused the INITIAL temperature jump. It reinforced it.
That's the point he's trying to make. He's trying to argue that because CO2 lagged temperature, CO2 can't be responsible for temperature increases.
His logic is deeply flawed and his argument is deceptive so it should surprise no one that the media doesn't spread it.