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Open Thread: The Complications and Misinformation of the 'Buffett Rule'

By NB Staff | September 21, 2011 | 11:44

A  A

As NewsBusters reported yesterday, Warren Buffett has spent years campaigning with the liberal media to raise taxes on the rich. Buffett has found an ally in President Obama to implement the "Buffett rule," a complicated and misinformed proposal that would raise taxes even more on the wealthy. As explained by the Tax Foundation:

During his Rose Garden speech [Monday], President Obama once again fueled the general misperception that people who pay the 15 percent tax rate on their capital gains and dividend income are paying a lower rate than salaried workers who pay at the individual rate (which ranges from 10 percent to 35 percent).

The reality is that capital gains and dividends are taxed at a lower rate at the individual level because this income has already been taxed at 35 percent at the corporate level before it was distributed to shareholders. Both Mr. Obama and his tax advisor Warren Buffett seem unaware that the U.S. has the 4th highest overall tax rate on dividend income among the largest industrialized countries in the OECD at 52.1 percent. Only Denmark (56.5 percent), France (57.8 percent) and the United Kingdom (54 percent) tax dividends at a higher rate.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Let us know in the comments.

Using the anecdote that Buffett pays less in taxes than his receptionist, Buffett and Obama have created an inaccurate campaign to increase taxes on the wealthy. From the NewsBusters post yesterday:

But even the AP has pointed out, the idea that secretaries pay more in taxes than their bosses is inaccurate. A review of IRS 2009 tax tables (Link to Excel spreadsheet) shows that those making under $100,000/year pay an average of no more than 12.3% of their income in taxes, while those making above $500,000 pay an average of no less than 26.3% of their income in taxes. However, this fact hasn't stopped the liberal media from happily advancing Buffett's call to soak his fellow rich.

The Tax Foundation has also been working to combat the misinformation being spread by President Obama and Buffett on the level of taxes paid by the rich and how effective the Buffett rule would even be. As the Tax Foundation explains the Buffett rule:

Nobody is quite sure what it is or how it will work, but most indications are that it would be a bit like the alternative minimum tax used to be when it was first enacted back in 1970. The AMT's original goal was to solve the same problem that Warren Buffett now wants to solve - that high income taxpayers pay low effective rates, as a result of various deductions, preferential rates on various types of income, etc. The AMT used to be fairly simple, and was originally known only as the "Minimum Tax" - all you had to do was take your entire income (from all sources) and multiply it by a certain minimum rate; you had to pay at least that amount, regardless of any other deductions or credits or preferential rates on this or that.

Now, of course, the AMT has grown from that basic idea into an entire alternate tax system with its own set of rules, deductions, and exemptions, and many taxpayers need to calculate their tax liability using two completely different but equally complex methods and pay whichever is higher. On top of this, Obama wants to add the "Buffett rule" - essentially a third way of calculating one's tax, structured the way the AMT used to be before it morphed into the behemoth of complexity that it is today.

The complexity of the rule is one matter, but even then, the tax revenue generated from the proposed tax hike wouldn't even be significant in paying off the debt. Again, from the Tax Foundation:

[T]aking half of the yearly income from every person making between one and ten million dollars would only decrease the nation's debt by 1%. Even taking every last penny from every individual making more than $10 million per year would only reduce the nation's deficit by 12 percent and the debt by 2 percent. There's simply not enough wealth in the community of the rich to erase this country's problems by waving some magic tax wand.

Do you think the Buffett rule will be implemented?

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Comments

Can’t figure out what game Buffet’s playing.

Submitted by Grumpy in Arizona on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:53am.

Certainly he didn’t make all that money by being ignorant of the market forces and capitalism… so why is he going stupid on us??? Help me out here folks!

I don’t know what his game is… but I do know that I don’t want to play.

- Grump :o)

"I wish I had an answer to that because I'm tired of answering that question." - Yogi Berra, (Baseball Great and Philosopher)
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Let me guess about Buffet's game.

Submitted by hbnolikeee on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:59am.

He is a ga-zillionaire an old man and he is bored and wants to become relevant. Of course the fact that he's a lying sack of turds that most were not aware of prior to this nonsense is not the kind of relevancy he is seeking.

hbnolikeee
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hbnolikeee, I suppose...

Submitted by Grumpy in Arizona on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:08pm.

... that makes as much sense as any answer will. I'm not a financial expert by any means, but I do know that lower taxes, less regulation, and allowing market forces to decide the economy is the way to go.

Buffet could be spending too much time in "Margaritaville"... oops, wrong Buffet - But then again, maybe not.

- Grump :o)

"I wish I had an answer to that because I'm tired of answering that question." - Yogi Berra, (Baseball Great and Philosopher)
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No,

Submitted by killa37 on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:35pm.

No, grumps..................it's called "Obamaville' - but Buffet has enough money to live in the very ritzy section of Obamaville. And I know that he's a smart guy too, in some areas at least - and he didn't make a ton of money by being economically uneducated.............so I find that photo to be very intriguing. Here's the Oracle of Omaha - who knows how to create wealth and prosperity - talking to the Oblivious Obama, who only knows how to destroy wealth and prosperity!!!

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Warren Buh-fay is a guy who doesn't

Submitted by WhoIsJohnGalt on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:33pm.

really care about wealth. If he were taxed at 90%, he likely wouldn't care. He still lives in the same small 3-bedroom house that he's been in since before he was wealthy. He just doesn't spend it. It means nothing to him. Good for him. But if he asks for higher taxes, it means something profound??? Okay, I only make just over six figures (household), so if I ask for higher taxes, should I be quoted as a sage? Why is his opinion more profound than anyone else's?

By the way, he's also hypocritical in that he's speaking out for higher taxes at the same time he's fighting an IRS case to AVOID paying past taxes.

I have a hard time with the notion that someone who pays $7 million per year in taxes isn't paying enough. Does he get to drive on better roads? Does he get better government services than I? Than why does he owe more than me? I'm not suggesting that we all pay the same flat fee...that's just not workable, but there has to be a practical limit to how much we try and beat out of the achievers.

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it's not as simple as that

Submitted by lotr on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:22pm.

What's needed in discussions such as these are charts, but seeing how that's not an option, let me take a stab in words.

Buffett (and a select few others) fall under a social class altogether removed from the remaining 99.999% of us: The Upper Class of the Upper Class; the Global Royalty.  This is not said with any sarcasm -- it's simply a matter of fact.

That said, the tax increases they advocate would not impact them or their lifestyle in any substantial way.  They shall remain Royalty.  When considering the economic condition of their social class, I like to use the analogy of the potential barrier problem in physics.  The vast majority of us will, for the remainder of our lives, remain on the one side of the potential barrier.  We will continuously need to labor to keep ourselves from rolling backwards, perhaps inching uphill, but we shall never reach the hump before we die.  However, once someone like Buffett reaches the hump, it's all downhill -- their accumulated wealth makes more wealth with little to no effort on their part (assuming their's not idiots).

That said, it's important to consider the primary motivation: It's not so that they can personally be more charitable -- their personal contribution, if they make any after finding loopholes, is simply a cost of acquisition, and one with no substantial impact.  No, it's to make those way down the chain in the 90th percentile range (the larger number of people on the uphill side of the potential barrier who aspire to get over the hump, but don't have enough votes to have a say -- i.e., the Upper Middle Class) pony up, which, of course, steepens the hill, ensuring that they will never see the other side.

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Buffet's secretary is not taking a risk.

Submitted by NeoKong on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:07pm.

It's not as if she works all week and maybe she'll get paid, maybe she won't.
Anytime she wants to roll the dice and invest her savings no one is stopping her.

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Hidden rule to punish employers?

Submitted by ThisnThat on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:17pm.

Is there really a hidden provision in o'bama's tax plan to punish employers for "discriminating" against the unemployed? The proposed language is found in a section of the bill titled "Prohibition of Discrimination in Employment on the Basis of an Individual's Status as Unemployed." http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/181323-obamas-jobs-plan-would-make-it-illegal-to-discriminate-against-the-unemployed

There are other parts of the bill, such as language that would create a program allowing workers to be reimbursed if their employer cuts their work hours by 10 percent.

Then, of course, we have other regulations that punish companies for hiring too many people: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2011/09/21/how-one-ceo-was-punished-hiring-too-many-employees

o'bama and his entire administration needs to be thrown into prison.

__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court

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~Liberals must be SO happy

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:11pm.

that Bush isn't embarrassing the country in front of the entire world anymore.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Wait....

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:33pm.

Is that Hu Jintao's face he's covering??

If so, holy crap, that's one helluva faux paus he did right there, especially now that the US Gov't is beholden financially to China!

-Jon

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Me, me, me, I, I, I, me, me, me

Submitted by ThisnThat on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:42pm.

Hi, mom! Look at me. It's all about me! I'm so experienced, I deserve another term. Anyone notice my halo, BTW? I'm really proud of my country -- for the first time. It's ME! me-me-me-me. I'm here! See me? It's your president, everyone. Let me wave. Aren't I so cute? Hey all, it's me! I'm here with all these other people. Don't I look good? It's me. Look. It's me!

__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court

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You gotta admit though

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:17pm.

This was really really dumb.  I thought the thing about the toast to the queen was stupid, but what the hell was he doing waving?

It's one thing to be a marxist and dictator in chief and etc,(a LOT of et ceteras) but doing these idiotic(seemingly?) diplo-faux paus (almost sounds like dip-ploe-foe-pow) just makes him patently absurd, I mean really it ought to be patented and put in an encylopedia!

Is his mind somehow going or been going and all the rebellion he's been facing is getting to him?  God, I hope so, he needs to go over the edge and go fast so that he can get out of the WH!

-Jon

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~What puzzles me

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:55pm.

is why his media lapdogs published it. I guarantee you things like this happen all the time and they cover for him, so why expose him now? Makes you wonder if they're set to turn on him, since he's dragging their agenda down with him.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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You're right

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 2:26pm.

And having done some photography in the past, I forgot the one rule these days photographers have when it comes to taking pictures with digital cameras....

TAKE MORE THAN ONE AND PICK THE BEST ONE!  They'll take 10-20 pictures of the same scene so there's bound to be one where he didn't have the hand up.  Basically blind the subject with constant flashes of the camera but one of them will be a good picture.

So you're right, this was deliberate, and against him of all things and will make him look bad.  This is more than just a stupid little faux paus.

-Jon

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or

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 3:05pm.

The media in this country would probably think that this is the best picture because their hero is waving to them and that makes them feel special.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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You are so right

Submitted by BuffNBone on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:15pm.

You've got to hand it to our President as he gives new meaning to "causing someone to lose face."

"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
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i just caught that

Submitted by killa37 on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:39pm.

i just caught that too...............it's pathetic!!! And how is Barry's 'look at me, I'm important' face??? What a total buffoon!!!! And I'll bet he thinks it was cool.............

I'm still checking my mail for the high heels!!!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!

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"I, Barack H. Obama, pledge to

Submitted by SickofLibs on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:55pm.

destroy the State of Israel and all Da Joos in it, so help me Allah."

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Wow

Submitted by Model850 on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 4:23pm.

What a puckin' futz.

And the media hails this idiot as "brilliant??" Sheesh.

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Bru-

Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 5:42pm.

It could have been worse.

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Good one, BK

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 6:00pm.

As luck would have it, the original was posted over on MOTUS....and of course, she picked up on it, actually called him a doofus!

So of course I stole your picture and posted it there. Great read by MOTUS, as always.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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That is a funny blog

Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 6:13pm.

Thanks

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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J-

Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 6:16pm.

I posted it there too; just before dropping back in here. lol (Although, the comments seem to be sliding off the page over there 'cause mine's gone.)

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BK

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 6:18pm.

MOTUS has been having some technical glitches lately...perhaps your comment migrated to another page.

I did, of course, credit you after I'd ripped you off. :)

{Edit} My comment has disappeared as well...I e-mailed MOTUS.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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Tom Vilsack: Food NAZI #1

Submitted by Dave. on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:29pm.

Yeah, he's a sack of something, all right.

I say we soon adjust his taste - to unemployment.

-Dave

Vote for the American in November

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Oh hell

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:35pm.

That set my blood pressure off like a rocket, I just about exploded.

I had to stop myself from hurling a spewing spitting flurry of profanities because I'm at work.  If I had let go, I'd shock the poor girls I have working here.

Good GAWD!  Do people actually believe this kind of crap??

-Jon

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The stupid ones believe

Submitted by killa37 on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:43pm.

The stupid ones believe it..........the ones who've thrown in with the REGIME and depend on it for their shared misery. Like I said a few days ago, Mooooooooooooooochelle is going to have to ask for 'waivers' the next time she orders some fries at some restaurant that has bent over to idiotic and overbearing government regulations.

Fortunatly for me, I can't really afford to eat out very often, so I can fix whatever I want at home..........at least until the Feds come down my private driveway to inspect my refrigerator!!!

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killa,

Submitted by Dave. on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:23pm.

...at least until the Feds come down my private driveway to inspect my refrigerator!!!

That will be next, right after they finish with the grocery stores.

-Dave

Vote for the American in November

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Yep............it'll be the

Submitted by killa37 on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:29pm.

Yep............it'll be the Hawaiian version of Ruby Ridge - 'Kauai Killa killed trying to protect his food stash'!!!! Sub-title - 'had illegal food hidden in secret compartment'..................sub-sub-title - 'was a righ-wing extremist, trying to subvert the government'!!!

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Good evening Dave and killa

Submitted by cocodrie on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:51pm.

Enjoy yourselves while you can. I just reported you to the Potato Police. Mahbutt is sending them right over so drop that potato both of you. If you go into hiding together you will be hunted down as the "killa-Dave gang"

 

Jesus Loves You so much He died for you

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Sweet

Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 2:34pm.

I mean it's a sweet potato

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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Getting back on point....

Submitted by RedinaBlueState on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:04pm.

The thing that consistently annoys me in the ever present argument of who pays more in taxes, is the issue of Percent of income vs. the amount of taxes with respect to income. Simply said, if I make $1 Million, and I pay taxes at a 25 % rate, I have just forked over $250,000 to the IRS. If I make $80,000 and I pay 25% in taxes, I paid $20,000. Therefore, the guy making a million paid MORE in taxes at the same rate.

Now, what's left to the argument is the issue of what PERCENTAGE the high wage earner pays in taxes. With deductions, loopholes, tax shelters, and tax formulas too complicated to contemplate (another discussion entirely), even if he pays roughly 15% in taxes, he STILL pays $150,000, which is about 7 TIMES what the earner making $80,000 pays.

The mix of percentages and amounts in this discussion is almost always used to distort and hide the fact that high income earners pay more to the IRS.

The other point that gets lost in the discussion is WHY and HOW high wage earners make what they make. NOWHERE in the discussion is the sweat, toil, time, effort, tears, and grind it most likely took for everyone in that high bracket to get where they are. I personally make in the very low six figures (practically low middle class in NYC), and I do not begrudge anyone making it big, because I know what it probably took to get there. The left would have you believe that the poor and low middle class got a raw deal, and that may be true in some cases. But they don't focus on the person who did poorly in High School because of lack of effort, or the person who was too lazy to finish college, or decided to not take up a trade and instead hung out with friends. I'm not joking here on this point... I think we all know that at its' core, this is a fundamental reason why we have the disparity in income, and I guess it will always be this way, because it always has been.

So, why should I be taxed more then? Spread MY weath (or what there is of it)? Go to hell Warren,...

What's the penalty for treason these days?
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Obama's Buffet tax effect of local taxes

Submitted by coesen on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 1:47pm.

Obama's Buffett tax will probably increase local taxes or reduce service. People buy municipal bonds because they don't have to pay taxes on them and because they are not likely to default. Because of the perception of reduced risk and the lack of taxes, the municipality pays a lower interest rate. This reduces the interest they pay and thereby reduces their cost for roads, sewers, buildings, etc.

If the "millionaires" have to begin paying taxes on the interest they receive, because of a minimum tax, then they will require a higher interest rate to cover the extra taxes they expect to pay, or they will buy other bonds that give them a higher return. This means that the municipality's cost for roads, sewers, building will increase and they have to raise taxes to pay for the increased cost. The municipality could reduce services instead.

So, the Obama plan will get more money for the federal government, but not much, but cause lots of problems and increased expenses for the local governments. So either your local services will decrease or you property taxes will go up

boondoggle9945
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It's an additional tax, not an alternative tax

Submitted by CobraMan on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 2:55pm.

What the MSM, and the democrats in general, are ignoring is that Capital Gains taxes and dividend income are ADDITIONAL taxes that people pay, not alternate taxes. The "super rich" still pays income taxes, from several other sources as well as salaries, like "earned interest," just as the rest of us do, and do so according to the same graduated rates that apply to everyone else. What Obama is doing is separating different types of taxes and comparing one to another, like trying to compare sales taxes to property taxes. It's and apples to oranges comparison. In other words, it's a trick.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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cap gains

Submitted by dubuqueman on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 2:58pm.

I agree with the folly here, but I don't know how you can say that corporations have already paid 35 percent in income taxes when you take a capital gain. When you take a gain selling a stock, the corporation may or may not have paid any tax.

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Swapping shoes, a moslem scientific explanation

Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 09/21/2011 - 5:11pm.

Exchanging bodily fluids, with an infidel.. All that with No Socks.

You Didn't Build That.

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