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Open Thread: How Will the Greek Financial Tragedy End?

By NB Staff | September 20, 2011 | 09:00

A  A

Three years after the collapse of Lehman Brothers, what was the fourth-largest investment bank in the US, the Federal Reserve, European Central Bank, Bank of England, and Japanese and Swiss central banks moved last week to avert a liquidity crisis in European banks struggling to deal with the failing Greek economy, leaving American investors with portfolios of Greek bonds worried. Do you think a Greek default is inevitable? Let us know your thoughts in the comments.

Following the falling E.U. bank stocks and a Moody's downgrade of two of the largest banks in France, the central banks are acting to protect the financial world against a Greek default that everyone sees as inevitable, except perhaps Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy, and George Papandreou.

The more obvious uncertainties seem to be defining the terms of a Greek default and managing any possible wider damage. As explained at the Daily Beast:

Contagion has now reached the Rhine and is mightily roiling German politics, making it uncertain whether Merkel can even get the second Greek bailout through the Bundestag. That is by now, however, all but irrelevant because in Greece itself, the game is up. Its economy is collapsing, the interest bill on its soaring debt will absorb a quarter of state revenue next year, and the taxmen who should be collecting around €40 billion in unpaid Greek taxes are all but on strike. Reforms have been woefully timid but are still bitterly resented. The vaunted sale of state assets has never left the drawing board, a run is developing on Greek banks, and unless the E.U. and IMF cough up the next €8 billion within a fortnight, Athens will run out of cash to pay next month’s bloated public-sector salary bill. In a desperate throw of the dice, the government has announced a property tax to be paid through domestic electricity bills—which the mighty electricians’ union has said it will refuse to collect. [...]

Writing down Greek debt by, say, 60 percent would saddle the European Central Bank with a big bill; create holes in the balance sheets of some big French, German, and Belgian banks; and, to an unknown extent, expose British and American holders of credit default swaps. Not only Greek but Romanian and Bulgarian banks could collapse, while Cyprus’s exposure to Greek debt is 156 percent of its GDP—and Russia holds massive deposits in Cyprus. But as Timothy Geithner has observed, the eurozone is not exactly penniless, and should be able to recapitalize banks that need it. The harder task will be to calm the European bond market, starting by providing Ireland and Portugal, which are in the recovery ward, with sufficient liquidity to ride out the storm. The European Central Bank will also need to buy Spanish and Italian bonds—but on the condition that their pampered politicians take the sort of steps Italy balked at this summer, notably the total abolition of Italy’s pointless and costly layer of provincial government.

An equally great risk is the political risk. Instead of buckling down to fix the root of the problem, many European politicians are instead bent on another political redesign. Jose Manuel Barroso, the European Commission president, said the "fight for the economic and political future of Europe" demands "a new federal movement." However, Greece's current economic situation is a direct result of combining incompatible economies. Of course, it would be extremely difficult to dismantle the euro in today's turbulent economy, but looking into the future and the lack of support generated by many countries' eurozone membership, the problem that needs fixing could be the euro itself.

What are your thoughts?

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Comments

Let them go under, it will do

Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 9:06am.

Let them go under, it will do them and the world good. We must face the reality of what is and what is not.

Nuke em til they glow; then shoot em in the dark
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How will it end?.......

Submitted by OldJarhead77 on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 11:04am.

ONE WORD................. BADLY!

Liberals: No Morals, No Standards, NO Problem!
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Greek default is not inevitable

Submitted by c5then on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 9:15am.

But it is highly probable. It won't come, however, until after many more billions (of whatever) has been pumped into the European economy in order to try and prop up the house of cards just a little longer.
Much of this will come from the Federal Reserve in the United States and lead to further devaluation of the dollar.

Inflation is starting to really gather speed here...the question is can the speed of inflation (devaluation of the dollar) be tempered by the $50 trillion in credit that has to be eliminated in the private sector (deflation) before the economy can really start to get back going again?

 

Madison and Jefferson and Franklin built a Republic - Roberts killed it! 

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From what I have heard on talk radio

Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 9:16am.

It will default in some form. Impossible not to default just based on the numbers.

-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.

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It's looking like the default

Submitted by HelenS on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 9:24am.

It's looking like the default has been in the works for some time but was masked by the EU structure. Now the EU is running out of band-aids and the damage is starting to show.

I can't blame Germany for being reluctant to pick up the pieces for all the free-loaders. They'll just sink an already precariously floating ship.

Me - "The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years - the cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil."

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Default

Submitted by Kingfish17 on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 9:36am.

When a country defaults on it's debt, does that give the holders of that debt recourse over that countries assets? Do the Chinese get their pick of whatever Greek Isles they desire?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama

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Nope, they get stiffed. Any

Submitted by dscott on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 4:06pm.

Nope, they get stiffed. Any bonds issued thereafter by the defaulting sovereign will be at much higher interest rates to attract another bunch of fools hoping they will get in and out leaving someone else holding the bag before the next default.

The upshot of this is that either the Fed prints $480 plus BILLION to buy up the outstanding shares and then renegotiates the interest payments down to less than 1% OR Greece defaults. Their interest rates have already shot up to reflect the risk of default which is why the Eurocrats are pressuring the Germans to fully buy into Greek debt thus lending their own good credit rating to the Greeks to hold down interest payments. I'm thinking Germans are deciding they have made enough reparations for WWII and will balk at buying into a losing scheme.

The Greeks just like Obama can't and won't change their spendthrift ways willingly. Greece will default, potentially pulling down any European Banks that have significant exposure to Greek debt. Thus the Greeks will be ultimately ejected from the European Union. The Fed will respond by printing money and loaning the European Banks that money for them to buy US Treasuries. The purpose of this will be the same as for the US money center banks helped by the Fed in 2008/09, straw purchases in which those banks will make up their losses via the interest rate spread between the Fed loan and the US Treasury rate. It's called a money laundering scheme to allow the US government to keep spending money it doesn't have. WE ARE ZIMBABWE.

The Chinese now are in the catbird seat, at some point they are going to start withholding purchases of bonds to the US and Europe to force up the interest rates. The Fed under it's current failed leadership will respond with more money printing plunging the entire Western World into hyper inflation. The only way this stops is 1. The US immediately stops deficit spending. 2. allow interest rates to rise to force all sovereigns to stop deficit spending due to the debt service payments. 3. The Fed stops printing money to allow interest rates to rise. 4. All private investors stop buying sovereign bonds and start selling off the ones they have. They either do this willingly now with some inevitable pain or get flushed down the hole in a hyper inflationary death spiral where extreme pain will be felt.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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Greek Isles

Submitted by Kingfish17 on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 6:25pm.

The bondholders should have demanded that the Greek put up some Islands as collateral to back the bonds. That would have made the inevitable default much more interesting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama

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Update of interest

Submitted by dscott on Thu, 09/22/2011 - 1:37am.

The Fed has just announced that it will rebalance it holdings in $400 billion of short term Treasuries to long term 30 year bonds by next year. Discounting all the blather you might hear regarding the move you should note that while this will hold down long term rates (as they trumpet), IF the Fed doesn't buy any more short term notes and bills, that means SHORT term interest rates will rise and may result in an INVERTED yield curve which is normal for a recession (which they don't want you to pay attention to) since the buyers of notes and bills won't be as plentiful.

Why this move? See above post but also the loss in bond principle is next to nothing due to the short maturity date since holding a bill or note to it's maturity will get you your principle back plus interest. Whereas on a long term bond, holding to maturity is a guaranteed way to lose money if prevailing interest rates are higher than your bond since you will lose out on making money due to the spread. Also note that the Fed made no mention of the straw purchases it has been doing with the banks. (Fed loans money at .25% to banks and banks buy US Treasuries with greater interest, thus making money on the spread) The banks are about to make a lot more money on the spread as short term rates increase.

Connecting the dots, IF the Fed starts loaning money to the Eurobanks to help them with the Greek default, then all those banks will be making money off the spread and hence Obama has no interest in cutting spending as this will hurt the banks. A cut in spending means less borrowing, hence less Treasuries for banks to make money off of. So the point of the Fed rebalance is to help the Eurobanks at the expense of the US taxpayer. Thanks guys.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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The Fed to thumb nose at Congress, will fund the IMF

Submitted by dscott on Mon, 12/05/2011 - 2:18am.

The Latest Rumor: Fed To Fund IMF, Bypassing Congressional Refusal Of European Bailout

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/latest-rumor-fed-fund-imf-bypassing-congre...

Can you say the word - precient?

"...Ben Bernanke is about to directly bail out Europe using the IMF as an intermediary. Via Reuters, "The Federal Reserve, along with the 17 euro zone national central banks, may help provide the International Monetary Fund with funds that could be used to aid debt-ridden states..."

When the Congress who is solely named by the Constitution in matters of currency is usurped by an agency headed by unelected, unaccountable individuals you know the end of the Republic as we know it is near. If Congress no longer needs to pass a budget as it has failed to do for 3 years, If Congress no longer controls the currency and If Congress' legislative authority can be usurped by the Courts and the Executive such as in the matter of the EPA regulating CO2 or denying drilling permits or the enforcement of immigration laws which it passed, then what use is the Congress other than to get in the way of a group of determined individuals who believe their decisions have more merit than the Constitution much less the Founders?

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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It will end

Submitted by ThisnThat on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 10:15am.

It will end with o'bama

  • Taking full credit if they somehow survive, or
  • With o'bama and schumer taking to the microphones to blame Bush it Greece goes into default.

__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court

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NO! It will end w/the UAW getting a cut!

Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Thu, 09/22/2011 - 1:52pm.

UAW will end up owning between 17.5% (GM) and 55% (Chrysler) of Greece! They "need" their freebies you know! Tyranny JOB 1 !

-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.

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We need to send them help!!!

Submitted by Grumpy in Arizona on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 10:29am.

I humbly suggest that we send a large team of financial experts to help. The “team” will be headed by Paul Krugman and his advisors will be the entire Democrat Senate and House. Naturally they will be given one-way tickets and will be only allowed to return after they establish a fully working and profitable “Socialist Paradise.”

In all seriousness, when is the world going to wake-up to the fact that China is waging economic warfare on the rest of the world?

- Grump :o)

"I wish I had an answer to that because I'm tired of answering that question." - Yogi Berra, (Baseball Great and Philosopher)
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Grumpy Wins

Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 10:56am.

I like it.

Best idea I've heard in weeks.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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Gosh! I won, I won!

Submitted by Grumpy in Arizona on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 11:04am.

First thing I’ve won since 1983… And at that it was a Philly Flyers Tote Bag (promptly given to someone who actually liked anything about Philadelphia, where I had the misfortune to be stationed at the time.)

Thanks Blonde! :o)

- Grump :o)

"I wish I had an answer to that because I'm tired of answering that question." - Yogi Berra, (Baseball Great and Philosopher)
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When, Grump?

Submitted by Newsbubba on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 12:08pm.

"when is the world going to wake-up to the fact that China is waging economic warfare on the rest of the world?"

I'd say about the time they are tired of going so slow, and their military is number one in the world, and ours is right behind Norway's. They are definitely on a mission of world domination.  Just look at the strategy.  Control the Caribbean basin and they have our southern border sealed.  Control Greece, and they can shut down the Med.  They pretty much have the ability to shut down the Panama Canal, and all of the other choke points in the world.

Those solar panels better damned well work, because with us not drilling, and the seas paths denied to us we ain't going to have any oil.  Oh, wait!  The solar panels are from China.  My bad.

On a happier note, if you are a boomer watch below.  It will brighten your day.

http://www.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.235372.1243574086%21menu/standard/f...

Comrade Bubba
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The Dear Ruler Hates GA and Intends to Ground It

Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 11:27am.

And should this stupidity somehow pass , it will just about do it for him, too.

And if you have never even flown, and thus think this won't affect you, then go look up the economic contributions general aviation makes to communities all across this country.

BTW: Many, if not most flights by GA pilots are made to maintain and improve their profficiency, as most pilots I know go well beyond what is required by the FAA.

Contrary to popular belief, most of these people are by no means wealthy.

At $100 a pop, do you think they will still be able to keep their skills sharp?

Obama hates and despises all elements of free enterprise and the private sector with a passion.

When are the American people going to realize this?

-Dave

Vote for the American in November

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Another MSNBC reject lands at CurrentTV.

Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 1:11pm.

Stinky Weeger hired as new lead-in to Countdown To No Ratings!

Replaces Olby's former lead-in "Organic Gardening With Mrs. Plumbush."

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A wheelbarrow filled with credit cards,won't buy a loaf of bread

Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 2:06pm.

In the age of internet transactions, everyone and nations will go broke at exactly the same time.

The once industrialized world will be transformed into a barter system. Share the misery and so very green.

How are the banks in your neighborhood?

You Didn't Build That.

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Obama waves

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 7:17pm.

and someone gets cut out of a picture. Classy.

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I'm reminded of that scene in

Submitted by deerjerkydave on Tue, 09/20/2011 - 8:43pm.

I'm reminded of that scene in the movie Memphis Belle when the engine is on fire and they dive to put it out. If they get lucky they could pull it off. Otherwise there is a very very bad horrific crash.

------------------------ 

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government are few and defined.  Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. -James Madison
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