Open Thread

By NB Staff (Bio | Archive)
November 17, 2008 - 10:05 ET

For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: Should Congress halt the bailout?

U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe said Saturday that Congress was not told the truth about the bailout of the nation's financial system and should take back what is left of the $700 billion "blank check'' it gave the Bush administration. "It is just outrageous that the American people don't know that Congress doesn't know how much money he (Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson) has given away to anyone,'' the Oklahoma Republican told the Tulsa World.

Is he right? Was Paulson's unauthorized change of direction inappropriate? Is it time to rethink this entire bailout, and stop throwing good money after bad? Or do we need to stay the course? Finally, should this bait and switch caution us about bailing out the automakers?

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What happened?

November 17, 2008 - 10:11 ET by littlemissmuffin

What happened to the "transparency" we were supposed to see in this bailout???

"If we conservatives moved to those seven non-existent States, the government couldn’t find us and tax us to death!"

Transparent Congress

November 17, 2008 - 10:15 ET by Gothampc

Not only in this bailout, but Nancy Pelosi promised this would be "the most ethical and transparent congress ever". What happened to that?

Stop the Bailout

November 17, 2008 - 10:13 ET by Gothampc

The bailout never should have started. The irresponsible Congress that we have now should realize they are putting the American people in over their heads. Everybody saw free handouts and decided to get a piece of the action at taxpayer expense.

Regarding automakers: how come they can make huge profits in the foreign markets, but can't seem to turn a profit in the US market?

These organizations are failing in good leadership. If the CEOs of these companies can't turn a profit, they shouldn't be in leadership positions.

Bailouts

November 17, 2008 - 14:16 ET by JDW

Hault bailouts to anyone and lose lib voters.

JDW

DAILY WAVE

GOP: A new start with a new team
Who will the libs attack after inauguration?

LOL

November 17, 2008 - 10:22 ET by jackie3

Now congress is suffering from buyers remorse. Everyone wants a piece of that pie. Saw this coming a mile away.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jackie3

November 17, 2008 - 10:27 ET by Semperright

Stevie Wonder could have seen this one coming...

Semper Fi

The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the

Saw it coming

November 17, 2008 - 11:26 ET by Gothampc

Helen Keller could have seen and heard this one coming.

He's got a point

November 17, 2008 - 10:28 ET by motherbelt

But it was Congress that gave Paulson, NOT the entire Bush administration (I don't think Bush or any WH staff have any input on this, do they?) carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.

They need to admit that they screwed up, that was a mistake, and remedy the situation.

They need to keep in mind, though, that if they want oversight, they also get responsibility.

Paulson couldn't give a

November 17, 2008 - 16:41 ET by Tim the Enchanter

Paulson couldn't give a frog's fat ass about the United States. What he cares about is feathering Goldman Sachs' nest. With our money.

Stop the Bailout NOW!!! Before anymore damage is done.

November 17, 2008 - 10:38 ET by c5then

Congress was a collective idiot when they passed this 'bill' and they need to at least mitigate the damage. You either have a free market economy where the government is along for the ride just like any other citizen, or you have a controlled socialism-like economy with 10 year plans and all the corruption that goes with it that fails on a regular schedule. Trying to create something in the 'middle' like a hybrid economy is doomed to fail and is not authorized by the US Constitution.

In fact, none of this economic oversight and steerage attempts are Constitutional.

Hey, I got the wrong "CHANGE"!

Alan Keyes / Sarah Palin - 2012

Bailout

November 17, 2008 - 10:44 ET by KC Mulville

I hated the bank bailout, but I really hate the idea of an auto industry bailout. I don't like the auto industry in the first place, and the idea of giving them money to cover union contracts and making cars that don't sell in this market ... makes no sense to me at all.

I stayed relatively silent about the finance bailout because I respect the intelligence, motives, and experience of the people who claim that we absolutely need a bailout. That said, even if the pope came to me and said, "I need a trillion or so," my first response is "whoa - explain why." And the answers of these respected economists and financial geniuses simply don't hold water.

That's the analogy: they're telling us that our boat has a hole in it. We need to scoop water out. Fine, but only on the condition that we either fix the hole or get a new boat. If your only long-term plan is to keep scooping, that ain't a plan I'm going to support.

The original explanation was that the bad mortgages were dragging down the banks, and so to free the credit, we need to get those bad mortgages off their books. OK, sounded reasonable.
So we gave them the money, but apparently no one attached any strings, and the banks didn't use the money to restore credit. Now, say the reports, they're holding onto the money to cover themselves, but they're in no hurry to re-open the credit market.
I hear defenders say that the finance industry is like a utility. True, but only if they extend credit. If they just keep the money, they're not doing anything we need to save.

I am definitely opposed to the auto bailout. Unlike the finance industry, we can go to other places to buy cars than Detroit. If the Big Three refuse to compromise to reality, screw 'em. If the automaker unions refuse to compromise to reality, screw 'em. Why the hell should I have to underwrite their stubborn clawing to bad management and unsellable cars?

Agreed, KC

November 17, 2008 - 12:18 ET by Blonde

The whole point of the "Detroit" bailout is to get their ginormous pension liabilities, caused by the UAW, off their books.

As we all know, this isn't a new problem whatsoever, it's been well known and well covered for years. The financial crisis is just a beard, a convenient excuse, if you will, to achieve the transfer of this pension stupidity from the private sector to the federal government.

I heard Sen. Lynn (sp?) from Arizona this morning. He cited the following numbers: Average cost of Detroit auto workers, $78 per hour. Average cost of non-Detroit auto workers in the U.S., $48 per hour. Average cost of a non-auto worker in the U.S., $28 per hour (this included all benefits, pensions, etc.).

He went on to frame the question, why should we ask the $28 per hour taxpayers to bail out the $78 per hour auto workers? The Big Three need to file Chapter 11 and reorganize. Just like anyone else. Period, paragraph, end of story.

I believe this approach is the one to take. Congress heard us on the bail-out (although at this point, with no election looming, they're more apt to ignore us) and on immigration. I believe with a concerted effort, the auto bail-out can be taken out. Hoping, anyway. I see it as absolutely throwing good money after bad.

Management

November 17, 2008 - 13:10 ET by KC Mulville

I've been mulling over a theory for a while, but these latest disasters have pushed me over the line. I'm now convinced that these crises all come down to a brutal rejection of the "management culture." It's time to re-evaluate management as a discipline. I know that's a broad philosophical generalization, but I'm a philosopher. I can't help myself.

In almost every area, management has been terrible.

Say what you want about Bush's courage, and his determination to fight the war on terror. From a purely managerial perspective, he's been terrible. It isn't just Katrina. He has minimal or no control over the CIA, State Department and various other agencies.
We now confront bad management in the private sector, especially in the banks, insurance, and now the auto industry.
Although I'm a Catholic and I'm obligated to follow them, I'm not sure the bishops (and certainly not the priests) have been shining examples of creative and/or dependable management.

Managers don't know how to lead. Subordinates don't know how to follow. It's like we forgot how to play this game. I have a lot more to this argument, but my ideas aren't fully formed, so I don't want to say very much more now. But the last few years have convinced me that the art of management is almost completely dead.

I keep asking myself: why does General Petraeus succeed where so many others fail? What's he got that all these other clowns haven't got?

Quickly, KC

November 17, 2008 - 13:50 ET by Blonde

For I must leave.

David Petraeus, although having attended all of the typical "management" schools both in the military and academia, has the knack for learning the lessons taught, and then applying them in NEW ways to the situation at hand. For instance, he totally re-wrote COIN doctrine.

Forgive me for the pun, but I'm going to have to mull over your theory for a while....it's got the beginnings of something.

I'll leave you with this. It's absurd to do the same thing over and over, and expect a different result.

Looking forward to continuing this conversation.

Asynchronous internet

November 17, 2008 - 15:53 ET by KC Mulville

That's the fun of the internet. You don't have to be online all the time to have a conversation, but I have some preliminary ideas on the topic already. Of course, all of my observations are from a very limited perspective ... my own.

I argue that the success of any management has to do, not so much with the sterling personal skills of managers ... as all the books seem to suggest ... but from the coherence of the group's strategy. It's the manager's ideas that count, and how they fit together as a whole, much more than his punctuality or power lunches. A strategy is where you make decisions ... based on ... what you think everyone else is going to do. It is as much a theory of how other people will respond as it is a theory of how you should act. The best management anticipates response properly.

And the worst management, like we've seen lately, is when your strategy assumes that everything will always stay the same. The banks assumed that the housing market would alway be the way it was. The automakers assumed that gas would always be cheap.

Strategy is making decisions based on how you think everyone else will respond. But these days, too many decisions are made in ignorance of what others will do.

That's where the media comes in, or fails to. The liberal media creates their own narratives, or myths, of how the world thinks and behaves. But these are usually self-serving projections of how the media wants everyone to think, not how we actually do think. The internet is replacing the liberal broadcast media, but no one should think that the internet is any more accurate. We are flooded with information, and yet we are becoming more ignorant. It is increasingly difficult to strategize within a society when we are becoming more ignorant.

Management is how you create and sustain a strategy.

My fear is that the failure of management in American society is a reflection of a deeper problem ... namely, that we no longer have a coherent national strategy. Maybe it's the final crash of liberalism and conservatism, resulting in a political equilibrium, leaving us all with no dominant strategy, and therefore no coherence as a society.

I guess that all depends

November 17, 2008 - 13:56 ET by dscott

I guess that all depends upon if you give the benefit of the doubt to a manager's incompetence, i.e. their failure to manage, some people actually manage to deliberately fail. When does being stupid or obtuse cross the line to sabotage?

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

If The Libs Provided The Big 3 A Bailout How Would They Succeed?

November 17, 2008 - 17:01 ET by JDW

Libs lack votes to fund Big 3 bailout.

What if they went Chapter 11 and combined?

JDW

DAILY WAVE

GOP: A new start with a new team
Who will the libs attack after inauguration?

No bailout!

November 17, 2008 - 10:53 ET by Mary Louise Turner

The American people have clearly rejected the Big Three's poor quality in favor of more reliable Asian brands, especially Toyota and Honda. The American car makers have had their heads in the sand, and when they discovered their mistakes, it was far too late. Americans are already burdened to the limit; it's time to say NO to the bailout of irresponsible American automakers.

What happened with the

November 17, 2008 - 16:50 ET by Tim the Enchanter

What happened with the Bankrupt Three is that they were feeding off the corpse of "Buy American" for way too long- they were counting on nationalistic pride to carry them indefinitely in spite of poor workmanship, inferiior materials, and sub-standard engineering. Along comes little Honda, and within 25 years, is making world-class automobiles, and MAKING THEM HERE. Doesn't look like a problem with our workforce- looks like a problem with corporate attitude and will. I remember reading some kind of report about how there is no significant statistical difference between the quality of American-made Hondas and Japanese-made Hondas. If the will to do so was there, I'm sure the Bankrupt Three could make cars every bit as good as Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, etc. The reason they don't is simple- they don't WANT to.

(No subject)

November 17, 2008 - 11:05 ET by Ruths husband Ben

freakin' text

November 17, 2008 - 11:06 ET by Ruths husband Ben

freakin' text editor. aargh! no comments for me.

---

November 17, 2008 - 11:03 ET by KJ_sez

The fact that Reid, Pelosi, et. al., went along with giving out over a trillion $$ without knowing where it was going in the first place shows they (congress, collectively and individually) have zero understanding of finance, zero regard for the people they purport to represent, and only enough active brain cells to keep them from having a scatalogical incident during a parade.

rofpmsl

November 17, 2008 - 11:06 ET by candance

Weren't Pelosi and the other Dems precisely the ones who pushed the bailout through Congress as fast as they could? Weren't Boehner and other Republicans the ones who tried to take it slow so that there would be oversight?

Pelosi is like a teenager who talks her friends into doing some bad thing and later blames them for it all.

I'm a typical white person.

Thomas Jefferson's take on bailouts

November 17, 2008 - 11:12 ET by dvdaughtry

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

C * H * A * T * Z * Y

November 17, 2008 - 11:45 ET by MrShy

Monday Morning Quarterbacking and Politicking.

You're the next contestant on...
THE MESSIAH IS... LEFT !!

I agree with Inhofe, he is

November 17, 2008 - 12:01 ET by bigtimer

I agree with Inhofe, he is one of my handful of favorite Senators, I also had the link saved to put here somewhere so glad this is being mentioned now, I know it this farce of our tax-payer money that may have the chance on being voted on again, I sure hope it does, most likely Reid won't do it, but I sure would like to see how some Senators on our side would vote again, namely McC...

Let the auto industry got bankrupt and shake themselves of the power/cost of the Unions, I am furious we may end up paying the wages/health care/retirement of some of the members, when millions of people have nothing like this...it is outrageous WE the PEOPLE should support the Union members, it is not our job, let them go bankrupt, start over and shake off the union power...

Here is some great reading about the Unions, (John Sweeny, who belongs to the Dem, Socialist Party) and the power the members of the Communist Party have, if anybody has read much about who/what started the unions, the powers to be, they were communists...

Others, do not get me wrong, I have been forced to join the Union myself for a couple of jobs.

Unfortunately, after the new congress comes in, we are forked, they will cram through so much on us, our heads are going to spin, we are going to be paying in more ways than one.

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Senator Inhoffe is correct

November 17, 2008 - 12:10 ET by Pete Wilson

but only to the extent that the TARP should never have been passed in the very beginning. They say they improved the bill, but only by adding much more spending to it. It was flawed in the beginning, which is why it did not pass in the House of Representatives. Only when they "sweetened" it with more taxpayer money did it pass in the Senate and the House.

This horrible thing should be repealed at the earliest possible moment.

I give the same answer I

November 17, 2008 - 12:48 ET by dscott

I give the same answer I did for the so called bank bailout:

NO! and $&^%*!@# NO!

It torques me that any of these idiots in Congress who voted for the first Crap Sandwich should not have been voted out on Nov 4th. But no one bothered to make a campaign issue of Congressional Representatives voting for this financial abomination and the there suprise, surprise was no MSM coverage of the voters anger over the issue of them deliberately disobeying their express wishes. The point of a Republic is to represent the voters, not do as you please because you think you're smarter than the people who elected you. As a representative, it was your job to present the merits of the case, hear what your constituents were saying and do what they indicated. The whole bailout was a prime demonstration of meritocracy, the tyranny of condescending elitists doing as they please based upon their unopposed ignorance.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

congress

November 17, 2008 - 12:56 ET by jessieH

Jessie R. Hamby Congress knew all about it. They are the cause of it. They push the blame to someone else. That's how they keep their jobs. Frank & Pelosi & the rest of the washington mafia are ripping US off, big time. The only way to stop them is to vote them out of office, OR a NATION WIDE strike. Then, and only then, WE can get our country back from the blatent corruption in washington. Have you noticed that Obama is re-aranging the mafia in washington with his own "hitmen" from Chicago? We can thank Opra for buying the election for him....THANKS HARPO!!!!!!!

The right direction

November 17, 2008 - 13:38 ET by badcleats

It all boils down to discipline, and responsibilty. The automible industry in Detroit has neither, and why should the people that do, go by the rules of the road, have to bail them out? A certain line has to be drawn in the sand to stop the regression and get things turned in the positive direction.

yes. this bailout should

November 17, 2008 - 14:12 ET by katainkent

yes. this bailout should not have occurred in the first place.

Let someone who knows how to manage these companies with some proficiency take up the reins, pick up the pieces, pull from the ashes... however it must be done - and forge new roads in business.

member of the Conservative Independant Witness Protection Program since Nov. 5, 2008

Failure

November 17, 2008 - 14:27 ET by JDW

Blame Rush, Hannity, Ingaham... for GOP downfall

JDW

DAILY WAVE

GOP: A new start with a new team
Who will the libs attack after inauguration?

Just came into the room,

November 17, 2008 - 19:14 ET by bigtimer

Just came into the room, and heard Mark Levin announce on Drudge this is breaking...

Oh goody gum-drops, Thunder-Thighs Shrillster is our new Sec. of State...love how in this article it says they have to look into the $$$ of Bill's that have to do with Africa...

Give me a friggin' break...they may want to read this, but it matters not, it's critters with 'D's behind their names...

Up next....Up-Chuck Hagel.

Behold, our standing in the world will be so much better now, can't you just feel the warmth spreading onto our shores already?

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Heck, why not bail out the oil companies too

November 17, 2008 - 19:55 ET by Jack Coleman

Just a matter of time ...

http://leftwingescapee.blogspot.com/2008/11/inevitable-future-bailout-request.html

→ Circuitous insanity

November 17, 2008 - 20:31 ET by Cool Arrow

Let's just follow a very short loop here.

The Big 3, who caused a significant portion of the oil shortage if you believe Congress, suddenly deserves a bailout because evil oil companies have caused so much wealth to leave the US.

Brilliant!

LYDSEXICS UNTIE!

What would happen if there

November 17, 2008 - 20:58 ET by semolina_filcher

What would happen if there is no automaker bailout? Poor unions especially the all-powerful, corrupt UAW. I say screw 'em. Don't bailout the automakers. There is that Chapter 11 they can always file for and re-organize. I'm sure many Americans agree with me that the unions are the problem...they demand too much from the Big Three while not conceding on many. Now the Big 3 are on the verge of bankruptcies...might as well bankrupt the unions too.

I am a card-carrying union member of SEIU but they haven't done anything mind-shattering to improve my standard of living; they certainly fattened their coffers for political purposes. My union dues went to supporting Obama and I didn't even vote for the fraud!

I forget who first found this guy

November 17, 2008 - 22:46 ET by RESTLESS 1

but can we PLEASE listen to him????

This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

HI Restless1

November 17, 2008 - 22:54 ET by semolina_filcher

Restless, agreed. He can be the voice of the new Republican party. Better yet, he is the Republican Party--he is what typifies us. More power to him and I hope the RNC can learn something from grassroots conservatives.

R1 good one..

November 17, 2008 - 23:11 ET by upcountrywater

heres 1:11 minutes more

First Mutt's Viet Nam 2

IranianUranium

Good evening UCW and Semolina

November 17, 2008 - 23:18 ET by RESTLESS 1

UCW, was it you who first posted this guy's videos here? I remember seeing it and wondering if we can get him on TV as quickly as possible. He is the kind of jolt the party could use, young, hip, and most of all, on the ball.

SF, you are right. He can speak for the party any time as far as I am concerned. He says things in a way that will resonate with younger people. He breaks it down well, and makes sense on a level few of our party leaders do.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

R1 , yea, someone else posted it on another site, it didn't work

November 18, 2008 - 01:31 ET by upcountrywater

so I went to YT and bagged it..then I emailed to everyone I know ...

he's a Great American...

First Mutt's Viet Nam 2

IranianUranium

This guy's message is powerful....

November 17, 2008 - 23:33 ET by semolina_filcher

http://www.youtube.c...

Cut and paste please. Sorry don't know how to link this to youtube. Anyway this guy really resonates. I hope he is the example of the future Republican party, the party of traditional conservatism and the true party of Lincoln and Dr. Martin Luther King.

Semolina

November 18, 2008 - 00:23 ET by RESTLESS 1

This guy has become my favorite Youtube personality. I hope he keeps posting, and I hope people are listening.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008