For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: irrational pessimism!
Markets are now back to where they were in March 2003, and close to their lowest levels in more than a decade. A gentleman on CNBC just called this "irrational pessimism."
Are we close to the bottom, or are prices irrelevant, and we're seeing a mad dash for cash?
Finally, does anyone want to talk credit default swaps and why this little-understood insurance derivative is largely the cause of this entire crisis?
Comments Policy
I don't know who to trust
October 10, 2008 - 09:13 ET by balboaI don't know who to trust and who to listen to right now. Is this a disaster? Is it OK? My general inclination is to believe that it'll all be fine.
Hoping this weekend's G7
October 10, 2008 - 09:27 ET by IgnatzJFahrquarHoping this weekends G7 Econ Summit will at least stem the gushing. US market does bad, Asia and EU follow then US futures follow them. The bad news just get perpetuated until a wrench (or cure) gets thrown into the machine to stop it.
The "market" is unsure/unsettled so stocks continue to drop. Considering that the 3 page original bailout bill grew into the 100's with extensions, etc., AIG get billions then goes on a lavish retreat then gets some more billions, hearings with CEO's goes nowhere ... it's no wonder there is uncertainty.
Right or wrong the above mentioned items give the perception of "screw you" Joe 6 pack (or Joe 40 oz. to be PC).
"All generalizations are false, including this one.” Mark Twain
The market's are about a
October 10, 2008 - 09:51 ET by danboThe market's are about a lot more than the US. But a part of what's going on. With all of Obamas claims of fixing the economy. And McCains. The markets are saying you don't know what you're talking about.
Last week we were lectured about spending all that money to prevent a crash. Guess what. The markets haven't been impressed by the politicians. Even if they are going to stick us with the bill.
That being said. I just wrote a check to increase my holdings. The politicians may not have a clue. But there are bargans.
Limited Disclosure: I used to belong to the Sierra Club untill they went crazier. Worse of all, I was bribed by Exxon with free New Orleans Saints glasses with fill ups in the 70's.
Trust no one
October 10, 2008 - 09:26 ET by c5thenLook at the big picture and try and see what is happening. The markets wanted to (and still want to) correct because almost all the big financial institutions were lying andcooking their books. In 1987 this happened in one day and was done with. Today it is being interfered with by trading restrictions, curbs and government involvement, so is taking longer.
This will eventually bottom out and be done with (at least the market portion) regardless of any 'bailout' or 'rescue' plan or package.
c5
October 10, 2008 - 09:41 ET by Noel Sheppardc5,
The 1987 collapse was not one day. That's just the day people remember. In reality, the '87 collapse started in the 1st quarter as our dollar began falling against other currencies including the yen and the mark.. To slow this decline, the fed began tightening interest rates which created a HUGE drop in bonds. By August, although stocks had been rallying for months despite the collapse in the dollar and bonds, they finally began retreating. After weeks of declines, they made a final push in late September to a lower high, and then began collapsing in October.
What most people forget is that the market had dropped from a 2756 high in August 87 to about 2200 the Friday before "The Crash." As such, the market had already declined by about 20 percent before Black Monday's crash. Monday was just the final capitulation. ns
Balboa: I concur.
October 10, 2008 - 09:42 ET by BDBalboa:
I concur. Personally, I have always expected the economy to go for a few years in an up cycle, then drop for a year, then rise again. It is just the cyclical nature of it all.
I am actually a bit psyched. I am putting together all of my pennies to invest just after the final drop when I expect the economy to bottom out. I expect that late next week.
And many of my friends are doing the same. It is not a lose-lose situation for us since we are not expecting to fully retire yet and do not need our investments to be fully bloomed. While I expect to retire from the active force late in next year, I still have many years of work ahead of me before I need my cash.
Call me
October 10, 2008 - 10:22 ET by cvgbuckeyeJust call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe.
---Three weeks ago, or so, this financial crisis was admittedly the result of all of the well-known factors that we are all aware of.
---But it was still manageable utilizing all of the normal financial tools that have always been available to so-called experts.
---Some pretty strenuous,downward, sell-off pressure, resulted.
NOW HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED NEXT THAT MADE THE SITUATION DIFFERENT FROM ANYTHING ELSE WE HAVE EVER SEEN:
1. The American public reacted to the financial crisis by skewing the election polls towards Obama.
2. The MSM, in the tank for Obama, took the opportunity to skew the polls even further towards Obama than they honestly were.
3. The American financial community became very aware that in very short order, the American public was going to install an outright Marxist into the White House while also increasing the Socialists Democrat Party hold on both houses.
4. This is what has triggered the world-wide sell-off and now the entire globe is on the slippery slope and NO-ONE knows how to stop it.
THE ONLY THING THAT WILL BOTTOM THIS THING OUT IS IF AMERICA AND THE ENTIRE WORLD GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS MADNESS OF PUTTING THIS MARXIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE HAS COME TO AN END.
BINGO!!
October 10, 2008 - 11:03 ET by SouthJersey1953I think you hit the nail on the head!
(I wish I had a bunch of money that I could go into the market and snatch up some of the bargains that are there...)
McCain/PALIN '08
PALIN/Jindal '12
Rush Limbaugh
October 10, 2008 - 11:16 ET by cvgbuckeyeAs I am typing this, Rush Limbaugh is agreeing with me 100%;; almost word for word!!!!!!!!!!
Let's keep it real
October 10, 2008 - 11:42 ET by mvfreemanHere...
http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/09/updated-summary-of-real-estate-boom.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122363315976122397.html
Read those and then forward them to Rush.
got some long term
October 10, 2008 - 12:05 ET by TruthMongergot some long term fundamentals in there too
massive democrat corruption in subrime mortgage land
general gov socialism/redistro of weatlh
un-Christian decline in general business ethics
just to name a few - all springing from the left - as usual
Journalism is the opium of the liberals
Hmmm
October 10, 2008 - 11:32 ET by mvfreeman"Just call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe. "
I'll go with all of the above.
I guess
October 10, 2008 - 11:50 ET by cvgbuckeyefreeman:
I'll take that to reconfirm that you still have a perfect record:
Zero original thoughts in your life. Congratulations idiot!
LOL
October 10, 2008 - 12:13 ET by mvfreemanAt least they're grounded in reality, unlike your fantasies.
At least
October 10, 2008 - 12:48 ET by cvgbuckeye"At least" - Now thats original!
Sigh
October 10, 2008 - 13:53 ET by mvfreeman"3. The American financial community became very aware that in very short order, the American public was going to install an outright Marxist into the White House while also increasing the Socialists Democrat Party hold on both houses.
"4. This is what has triggered the world-wide sell-off and now the entire globe is on the slippery slope and NO-ONE knows how to stop it. "
Do you have anything, anything at all to back up this assertion besides your and Rush's gut feeling?
The world wants O to be elected remember! They are about to have their wish granted so why are their markets in turmoils as well?
What stated policy of O's do you feel caused this?
What exactly do you disagree with in the articles I linked?
You want blame a meltdown that is happening now on the possibility that a man may be elected in 4 weeks and won't be sworn in for another two months.
mvfreeman,
October 10, 2008 - 14:17 ET by Indiana JoeI'm not about to take sides in this one, just some things in your post caught my eye. I do actually think cvg may have some points that bear on the economy, but I'll let him defend them.
Worries about what Obama may do could have an effect on the economy. I don't see you disagreeing with that, except to say that it wouldn't matter to the world because they want Obama to be elected.
But people here, a lot of them, want Obama, or think they do. The "public," supposedly. That doesn't mean that our financial markets don't take into account what effect Obama's policies may have on the market. Even the most rabid Obama supporter, if an economic speculator, would be planning on how it would affect his portfolio, and would make the appropriate (to him) moves to protect his investments.
I see no reason to assume that pro-Obama speculators in other countries wouldn't see things in the same way, considering how much the American markets effect foreign markets.
I'm not arguing whether or how much the policies of a potential new administration might affect the markets before an election. I think they do, frankly. I'm just saying that I would expect foreign markets to respond similarly to our markets, given the influence ours have on theirs. Their populations' approval of Obama notwithstanding, IMO.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
Good points.But...
October 10, 2008 - 14:36 ET by mvfreemanObama's election was supposed to be a forgone conclusion months ago. His policies have been available for review on his website for at least as long.
So why is the bottom falling out now if it's all O's fault?
"But people here, a lot of them, want Obama, or think they do. The "public," supposedly. That doesn't mean that our financial markets don't take into account what effect Obama's policies may have on the market. Even the most rabid Obama supporter, if an economic speculator, would be planning on how it would affect his portfolio, and would make the appropriate (to him) moves to protect his investments. "
So why would they want to elect some one who would have a negative impact on their investments?
O is getting traction in the polls precisely because people feel he will help the economy. Not gonna be to his credit if it does but that's the perception.
His pending election did not trigger this panic sell-off.
I was going...
October 10, 2008 - 11:50 ET by dcullingWhen I saw this topic, I was just going to post essentially the same thing you did until I read your post lol. I think you nailed it just fine.
I may not know all the details of mortgage backed securities, mark to market rules and whatever, but I'm pretty sure most of the movers and shakers in the world are pretty darn well educated about the failures of Marxism and Socialism and are reacting as you suggest.
Stop the madness. Restore our Constitution, freedom and free markets.
how
October 10, 2008 - 11:54 ET by cvgbuckeyedculling:
How then do you come down on the vast wisdom of MindVoidfreeman? Pretty much of an idiot huh?
Ummm...
October 10, 2008 - 12:18 ET by dcullingUmmm, did I miss something? Didn't MVFreeman say, "I'll go with all of the above"? Apparently he was agreeing with you. I probably missed an earlier conversation.
dculling,
October 10, 2008 - 14:23 ET by Indiana JoeYeah, sorry, you did miss something. mvfreeman said:
"'Just call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe.'" (quoting cvgbuckeye)
"I'll go with all of the above." (responding to that quote)
Not agreeing with his points, but accepting his invitation.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
That's what...
October 10, 2008 - 15:40 ET by dcullingThat's what I get for scanning posts as fast as I can lol. There's just too much good stuff here to absorb it all. So many good links to follow too.
Before I learned of Newsbusters I was going to Google News and trying to argue with all the liberals posting in many of the article forums of the liberal online newspapers. In one of those during the height of the media feeding frenzy about Governor Palin, someone from here posted the Newsbusters url and probably saved my sanity. The opinions here are FAR better educated and make better points; I learn a lot. I want to read them all here but just can't keep up.
But is is great to be among so many like minded conservatives even if we disagree a bit. I was feeling pretty alone out there by myself among the masses of brainwashed Liberals.
The most important articles and the most important replies are here and I rarely browse Google News anymore.
Too funny
October 10, 2008 - 12:18 ET by mvfreemanI link articles to people who are in the housing and financial sector and you refer to a talk show host for affirmation.
If your going to be calling people idiots you should stop at the nearest mirror.
Ah yes
October 10, 2008 - 12:53 ET by cvgbuckeyeAhh, now there are some geniuses: people in the housing and financial sector. Now there are some real winners lately. How we lookin in the housing sector; did I ask about the financial sector as well?
You ought to get a new lawyer. I'll offer my services.
Please.
October 10, 2008 - 14:23 ET by mvfreemanWhile the game was working those sectors were making a killing. The bubble finally burst just like tech stocks did in the '90s. Does that mean tech people didn't know their business? Of course not. Their companies were over valued like houses were now. Doesnt mean they weren't knowledgeable in their field.
Things will rebound like they did then and in 1987.
You haven't offered any services other than to conflate market performance (which is cyclical) with industry knowledge and profer a theory which has no basis in reality.
Calm down
October 10, 2008 - 14:29 ET by cvgbuckeyeCalm down, mv. I just decided that as long as you walked by that you looked like a good guy to rag on today. Meant you no harm though. I have no doubt that you are a savvy person.
Main point being, though, The United States of America is rarin back to elect someone to the White House whose past shows very thin, if any content of experience and the character element is strewn with people and places and positions that just scream Marxism. This is not lost upon those in positions of business power in the U S and around the world.
It scares me and I am fearless to a fault.
HEHE
October 10, 2008 - 14:41 ET by mvfreemanIt's been fun. Truth be told I am just killing time at work.
I agree that O is one shady character that the media has completely failed to vet.
Ok, I'm starting to see...
October 10, 2008 - 13:02 ET by dcullingOk, I'm starting to see what's going on here. Apparently you don't think things are that bad. You may certainly have your opinion. I believe it's incumbent on those who wish to protect their freedoms to fear the worst and make sure it doesn't happen.
I indeed fear the worst if Obama is elected and that's based on too many things that are adding up that suggests he is a Marxist at heart pretending to be a center left Democrat.
There is no greater threat to freedom than Marxism.
I also believe the movers and shakers of the world know this as well and they are trying to protect their wealth from a Marxist take over or at least from the no growth of Socialism and is why the market is crashing.
Ok
October 10, 2008 - 16:24 ET by mvfreemanDude the market is crashing because a lot of companies in the financial chain got caught holding bad paper. Suddenly they were in the hole for amounts they couldn't possibly hope to cover.
http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/09/updated-summary-of-real-estate-boom.html
Check out that link.
Well, d'oh...
October 10, 2008 - 16:57 ET by dcullingWhere did the bad paper come from? Bad socialist policies.
To some degree
October 10, 2008 - 18:47 ET by mvfreemanFrom the article:
by August of 2003, the refinancing boom was over. Interest rates for so
called conforming loans, loans to good borrowers, had leveled out. Yet,
interest rates for sub prime continued to get more and more aggressive
well into 2006. With no money down loans being all the rage,
Fannie/Freddie began losing significant market share. At its height,
sub prime accounted for about 40% of the mortgage market. That was
obscene as it usually accounted for somewhere in the neighborhood of
15%. Fannie/Freddie responded by making their own low and no money down
loans more available. (as opposed to the silly and wrong notion that
they did this to respond to lending in low income neighborhoods)
It's true that some banks were pressured into making loans to low income people. But the fact is that those were a small percentage of the no/low money down loans that were being given to everybody and their brother.
Middle class and higher people were being given loans on property that they could not afford if interest rates weren't as low as they were and were basically given loans no questions asked. Of course this was all done under the assumption that real estate values would continue to rise.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were losing market share and jumped on the bandwagon.
I still blame unmitigated greed as a main culprit. Borrowers wanted more house than they could realistically afford and lenders wanted to maximize loans because it cost them next to nothing to borrow from other banks and financial institutions.
But morons like Barney Frank and the like are to blame too because as I'm sure you've heard were telling everyone to move along, nothing to see here. They were using poor people as cover but that is not who got the majority of loans.
bal,
October 10, 2008 - 10:29 ET by Indiana JoeI'm in the same boat, kinda. Not sure, but I don't think it's as bad as they paint it. The bail-out we "needed" seems to have made no difference. The markets are swinging, trending down, but the bottom hasn't fallen out. I just think it's a correction. A big one, and long-overdue, but not an emergency. I think it will settle itself without any <edit: (further)> tampering.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
screaming into the wind
October 10, 2008 - 11:34 ET by Ten7sIt seems I've left posts here like this one over and over and over... Perhaps its just that I don't like to repeat myself, but I feel like I'm screaming into the wind.
This crisis is serious, and it'll get more serious. Its primary cause is the bursting of a HUMONGOUS world-wide credit bubble that was made possible by credit derivatives that among other things allowed institutions to hide and shift credit risk.
Case in point, the CDSs mentioned in the opening diary. There are tens of trillions in CDSs. A substantial portion of these CDSs will not provide revenue streams, and will thus become worthless.
Like when the primary weight bearing beam collapses in a building, from the outside you see the structure sag and eventually disintegrate into many parts, the collapsing credit bubble is the primary cause, but its the manifold effects you see.
This is real. There will be no capitulation as happened in 1987. In '87 P/E was relatively low. Whereas now P/E is quite high, and earnings are weak and rapidly weakening.
T7
October 10, 2008 - 11:53 ET by Noel SheppardT7,
Yes, the CDSs are indeed the elephant in the room that no one is talking about, and likely the root cause of all the problem. I finally figured it all out within the last 48 hours, and now understand why the Lehman bankruptcy started this collapse, and why we bailed out AIG.
This problem is MUCH larger than anyone is letting on. The reality is that our banks, brokerage firms, and insurance companies participated in a HUGE Ponzi scheme that unlike such activity in the past was directed at each other. As a result, what might be $1Trillion in bad loans could be having a net default impact of up to $60 Trillion. This is why the $700 billion bailout is irrelevant.
Complicating matters, the poor Lehman auction results today point to just how worthless all these CDSs are. This is why this morning's rally failed. As such, we are not out of the woods yet. ns
Exactly right Noel, the
October 10, 2008 - 12:18 ET by dscottExactly right Noel, the $700 billion bailout is irrelevant. Only by addressing the cause can we rebuild the economy. The house of cards set up the libs and Dems will come crashing totally down of it's own inertia. The question is what to do when the cards are laying on the floor. As I have stated many times in various ways, only a market solution will restart the economy, not a government one. The government's response is primarily an accounting issue. The market requires a REAL response, that being the price of oil.
People can't pay loans if they are unemployed, which is really what started the mess and exposed the house of cards for what it is. The solution is really quite simple and NO COST to the Taxpayer, drill for oil and gas > increase supply > lower cost energy > employers hire workers > restarts economy.
As long as the morons in government continue to prattle about AGW, there is no insentive by them to push drilling. They would rather print money and sell bonds than actually do something concrete to restart the economy because doing otherwise they won't get the credit for saving the economy.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
cause of problem
October 10, 2008 - 16:13 ET by mvfreeman"People can't pay loans if they are unemployed, which is really what started the mess and exposed the house of cards for what it is."
Unemploymemnt is maybe 6% and has been around 5% for years now.
http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp
What started the mess is that people were defaulting on loans they could no longer afford because of ARM's. Which led to mortgage backed securities becoming worthless when property values plummeted.
"The market requires a REAL response, that being the price of oil. "
The price of oil is already down to around $80/bbl. Gas is down around 50cents a gallon in just two weeks.
http://money.cnn.com/data/commodities/
http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
The immediate problem for employers isn't an energy crunch it's short term credit.
IMO, while you may not think
October 10, 2008 - 20:09 ET by dscottIMO, while you may not think these two issues are linked what's occurring is two Democrat inspired policies interacting with unforeseen consequences to their agenda. It doesn't take much of an imbalance to start a series of cascade effects moving in different directions. Your reference to ARMs was just another facet of the mortgage meltdown problem. Their AGW agenda via the no drill policy raised energy prices so quickly that employers started laying off low skill workers, those with low FICO scores who were approved to purchase homes under CRA. Once that happened there was no one to buy all the new houses being dumped onto the market. The increasing housing inventory was part of the cascade effect. You will find Democrats have a host of agendas that run at cross purposes to each other. Their solution of course is to throw more money and resources at the problem to mitigate it, just like they are doing now.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
The only things government can do to fix the problem
October 10, 2008 - 19:20 ET by PopularTech1. Drastically cut taxes: income, capital gains, corporate taxes ect...
2. Drastically reduce spending (which may mean pulling out of Iraq)
3. Liquidate Feddie and Fannie, AIG, and let all the investment banks fail.
4. Start repealing any law that interferes in the market.
absolutely
October 10, 2008 - 18:43 ET by Ten7sNoel, yes, yes, and absolutely. Its so outragous that reasonable people can hardly imagine it.
This is definitely not good = Inflationary Depression
October 10, 2008 - 19:16 ET by PopularTechSo far the government is proceeding down the worst possible path which is to socialize the mortgage and financial industries, turn the treasury secretary into a financial czar, create trillions of dollars out of thin air (bailouts) all in a futile effort to prevent the market from correcting itself. Not Bush, Paulson, Congress or the Fed can stop the market. Home prices are overvalued and must come down to reality. So now instead of just getting a recession we could possibly face an inflationary depression.
Obama ad about his mother ...
October 10, 2008 - 09:25 ET by Jaykeleaves out the fact that he was to busy to visit his dying mother or attend her funeral. I'm glad I made the time to sit with my mother when she was dying from cancer even though I lived across the country with a young family and only had a few thousand dollars in my savings account. It was worth every minute and every penny. I guess I really love my mother.
Why couldn't he help her with her bills? Why didn't she go to Pakistan or Indonesia to get free health care? I don't understand.
Jayke,
October 10, 2008 - 10:31 ET by Indiana JoeAre you questioning Obama? Racist!
Seriously, those are great questions. Too bad no one else will ask them.
Sorry about your mother.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
Wow Jayke.....thats the...
October 10, 2008 - 12:36 ET by BEGRUNTfirst time I heard that. It makes him even more slimey in my eyes........He has the gall to stand on her corpse, and use her as a prop.....what a low class DIRTBAG!!!
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Domestic spying unhinged
October 10, 2008 - 09:31 ET by Smoking Hothttp://abcnews.go.co...
"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.
Spying on our soldiers private calls back home? If this proves to be true, someone deserves jail time.
As I have stated before,
October 10, 2008 - 09:47 ET by BDAs I have stated before, phones eminating from US facilities in theater (And on military posts and facilities stateside) are all subject to monitoring for OPSEC purposes. Usually, each phone has a truly obnoxious sticky label on it that says "THis phone is subject to monitoring for OPSEC Purposes". THis monitoring is legal and necessary.
THe use of the infomation gathered for prurient purposes is not authorized and those who have admitted to it should face charges.
EXACTLY!
October 10, 2008 - 09:53 ET by c5thenAlso all phone calls that originate outside the US or those that call foreign numbers from inside the US are subject to surveillance.
Those who listen in and pick the 'jucy' ones are doing so for their own entertainment and therefore are derilict in their duties. These 'whistleblowers' are the ones who are breaking the rules and possibly the law.
Spying on our soldiers
October 10, 2008 - 09:54 ET by Dan The Man 2Spying on our soldiers private calls back home? If this proves to be true, someone deserves jail time. Yes this is good that we monitor the communications of our soldiers. No jailtime. Newsbusters covered this earlier. Not all in the military are for the USA. Remember the start of Iraq invasion when the soldier threw a grenade into a command tent? We must be vigilant an alert at all times. The world needs more LERTS.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
A fair point
October 10, 2008 - 10:48 ET by Smoking HotHowever, there is clearly some unprofessional if not outright illegal behavior going on here. Something still smells funny. Would you as a colonel pick up a phone with one of those obnoxious stickers and engage in pillow talk/phone sex? Is that done? Just another bit of privacy sacrificed in the name of service to country? I ask out of sincere ignorance having never enlisted.
TSA monitors should be prosecuted
October 10, 2008 - 11:08 ET by SouthJersey1953Those TSA agents that monitored, then shared that info with the press, should be prosecuted for violation of privacy. What they did (monitoring) was legal (and necessary). What the TSA agents did with the tapes (sharing with friends/the press) was illegal.
McCain/PALIN '08
PALIN/Jindal '12
Look at the relevant NB
October 10, 2008 - 11:08 ET by Dan The Man 2Look at the relevant NB article and comments. One interesting thing is the idiot saying these things is a "former" analyst. So it indicates she was the one who was eavesdropping and making such comments. Probably got cashiered for such behavior she was mentioning.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Is it done? People are
October 10, 2008 - 11:11 ET by BDIs it done? People are people. Stick someone 6000 miles away from their girlfriend and interesting things happen.
Have I ever engaged in "Pillow Talk" on a government phone? I imagine I have sometime in the past 23 years, though I cannot recall an instance of anything truly interesting I have said on such a phone.
During the first Gulf War the only method of communicating to home was a series of big open bay fest tents run by ATT that had about 100 phones in them for people to either use an ATT Credit Card to call home, or reverse the charges. Very few offices had any capability to call home on a governmental line. Even still the conversations one could overhear from the guy at the next phone were a bit salty at times.
Today, virtually EVERY office has this capability to call home due to the revolutions in communications that the Signal Corps has provided. Most offices have a policy of allowing the troops to use the phones for personal purposes for a few minutes each week to call home. The greater anonymity of this new capability probably allows more "Interesting" conversations to take place from offices.
I do not consider it a privacy sacrificed since I realize that the phone lines can and likely occasionally will be monitored by someone to verify OPSEC. Most of my conversations in the past were pretty mundane, and likely will continue to be so. But I imagine others are not so restrained.
By the way, the stickers are obnoxious because they tend to absorb human hand sweat and thus turn black and really NASTY over time. Many troops while away their time slowly scraping them off the hansets.
Keep in mind, the
October 10, 2008 - 11:14 ET by Indiana JoeKeep in mind, the listening-in is a distasteful, but necessary and legal, part of any war and, I think, any military service (overseas in a combat zone, anyway). The violation here is by the soldiers whose duty it is to perform that "listening-in," and make the judgement of what's relevant and what's not. To continue to listen in, or to disseminate what they hear, once it's clear the call is innocent is completely on the individuals doing it.
The violation of law/policy/decency here is the fault of the violators, not those that created the law/policy.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
Smoking Hot,
October 10, 2008 - 11:06 ET by Indiana JoeYou're right, someone deserves to be disciplined for this shameless behavior. ABC has performed a great service here, and should call for the immediate investigation of these soldiers who have abused their authority, misused their power, neglected their duties, and violated their fellow soldiers right to privacy. If this were (shudder) a Kerry Administration, ABC would be calling this an "internal disciplinary matter."
I posted similar thoughts at the comments for the link. "Chicago_Al1956." I'm wondering if it will get approved. But, similar points were being raised by others. Thank God that BDS hasn't completely taken over.
My own belief is that this
October 10, 2008 - 09:39 ET by gregfaheyMy own belief is that this is quite possibly the beginning of the Global Govt. As a Bible believing Christian and one who has studied prophecy for over 30 years, it looks like a global currency is coming.
The natural progession would be to then have a governing body and then a leader of that body. Nowhere in prophecy do we see the US as a role player. I'm afraid we are seeing the decline of the US. If we go into a depression, most people would surrender their rights in a heartbeat. Control of the masses is coming. Factor in the possibilty of a socialist like Obama (and he is, don't even argue) and he'd lead us that way anyways, whether we wanted it or not. Judgement on the US has reached it's ultimate end. We are the suppliers of porn, abortion and anything that is "pleasure". We are modern Rome and just like Rome, when a nation emraces homosexuality, it's demise is soon after. Billy Graham once said that "If God does not judge America then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."
There is a run on ammo, guns, food and even Mason jars. Expect the best but, prepare for the worst.
Gregfahey
October 10, 2008 - 10:06 ET by iveseenitallYou are correct, Greg. All signs point to a nationalized government. Under Obama, it will come --- a Marxist government with a fascist leadership. Think about it. We already have a nationalized press and "education" system, who are busy indoctrinating citizens. Now the "economy" is moving toward nationalization. Why is it so important who is the next Treasury Secretary? Will he/she run the "free market"? The free market is dead. The Obamas, Michelle and Barry, are committed Marxists, whose "associates" are the same. They all want to "change" America. Duh! America, as it was founded, may be over. Sad.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Must be good stuff...
October 10, 2008 - 11:20 ET by mvfreemanThat you're smoking.
"Under Obama, it will come --- a Marxist government with a fascist leadership."
So now Obama is gonna dissolve congress and the supreme court? Hardly. If O tries to do anything that the majority disagrees with then the oppostion party is going to gain control of congress, just as it did when Clinton tried to go way left.
"We already have a nationalized press and "education" system, who are busy indoctrinating citizens. "
While the media is undoubtedly liberal it has not been nationalized. It is still under private ownership.
And the public education system is being screwed by teachers unions but is still controlled by local school boards, not the national government. That isn't going to change anytime soon.
The problem...
October 10, 2008 - 12:45 ET by dcullingThe problem is whether the majority will disagree with him or not. With an extreme Leftist as President and filibuster proof Democrat controlled Congress there will be no stopping them and they know it. Are you suggesting they won't use that power for political gain? I believe their past behavior suggests they most certainly will.
This is not the age of George McGovern, Herbert Humphrey and the like anymore. This is in fact the most partisan Congress I have ever seen.
If Obama wins it will become quite apparent that the checks and balances that our Founding Fathers put in our Constitution as safeguards against oppression are indeed long gone.
Not that worried
October 10, 2008 - 13:30 ET by mvfreemanIt seems evident that the electorate is still fairly evenly split. Once a party has been in power for several elections it will eventually favor the party that's out of power. That's how a lot of presidents got elected. Because one party or the other fell out of favor for whatever reason.
O has two years to f**k it up and I guarantee you his approval numbers will nose dive and the republicans will pick up seats. So he'll have a friendly congress for two years max. And keep in mind that this same congress has an approval rating lower than whale dung.
I don't see O having long coattails as far as congressional races. I think its gonna be everyone for themselves.
I have to agree with you.
October 10, 2008 - 10:44 ET by play21cwI have to agree with you. This is something that has been in the works for a while.
This is the change obama is promising
Good grief
October 10, 2008 - 10:57 ET by mvfreeman"If God does not judge America then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."
You don't think there are any righteous people left in the USA?
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake.
"Factor in the possibilty of a socialist like Obama (and he is, don't even argue) and he'd lead us that way anyways, whether we wanted it or not"
How? Is O gonna suspend the constitution? You sound as silly as liberals and their paranoid delusions.
Remember when Clinton was first elected and he tried to swing left? What happened next? The republicans swept congress in '94.
If the country survived Clinton it can handle Obama.
"Remember when Clinton was
October 10, 2008 - 11:26 ET by Indiana Joe"Remember when Clinton was first elected and he tried to swing left? What happened next? The republicans swept congress in '94."
That's a good point. I do think Obama is worse than Clinton, and I'd rather he didn't win. If he does, though, I think it would encourage the MSM to continue in the Dem tank even more than they are doing currently, with the aim to prevent a repeat of '94. Would they be successful? I don't know.
Either way, I'd rather not risk it.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
Joe
October 10, 2008 - 11:35 ET by ricklailI have thought about that too. Unfortunely I don't think we'll last 2 years under Obama. There won't be a 2010 election.
"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer
Just curious...
October 10, 2008 - 11:50 ET by mvfreeman"There won't be a 2010 election."
What's your scenario?
If it's anything less than nuclear armageddon I'm not buying it.
2010 Election
October 10, 2008 - 12:10 ET by cvgbuckeyeSo you really believe that we are having a 2008 free election:
1. 95% plus of all minorities are voting for Obama due to his race.
2. The MSM, being in the tank for Obama, has had an Obama swing that could not have been counteracted with 10 times the campaign funds, combined, of both parties.
3. ACORN and other Marxist illegal voter activities have made an appreciable difference that cannot even be calculated and even if it could it will be years to late.
4. Misinformation by Hollywood elites and universities have swayed misinformed and young voters to a great degree and will bring them out to the polls in hordes.
5. State governments, contrlled by dems (example Ohio) have dipped their beaks into mafioso like activities to sway elections for Obama.
AND YOU WANT PROOF THAT THE 2010 ELECTION WILL NOT TAKE PLACE? HELL MAN, 2008 AIN'T TAKIN PLACE! WAKE UP!
Ok
October 10, 2008 - 12:38 ET by mvfreemanI agree with you on #'s 1and 2. Even though at this point McCain is still close in some polls.
As far as number 3 goes ACORN is already being investigated and if I'm not mistaken has already had names removed from voter rolls. While serious I don't believe it rises to the level of voter fraud of let's say Zimbabwe.
Partially agree with # 4. However, not all young people are getting brainwashed by liberal professors and Jon Stewart. Give them some credit. My son graduated from USNA in '07 with a B.S. in poli-sci and is pretty conservative. My daughter (who isnt the most intelligent girl)still recognizes that the media is fellating O and dumping on republicans. And she didnt hear that from me.
Also, the number of young people who voted in the 2004 didn't meet expectations despite all of the "Vote or Die" retards on MTV.
Do you have any links for #5? Are people being intimidated into voting for O? Kind of hard to do considering our elections use secret ballots.
Ohio
October 10, 2008 - 13:00 ET by cvgbuckeyeI was referring to the dem secretary of state in Ohio that is allowing registering and voting in one fell swoop. AND being now mandated to confirm all new registrations before certifying their vote, she has appealed.
Other dem controlled states are following suit. They even refuse to require any kind of personal identification prior to registering and voting.
cvg,
October 10, 2008 - 16:25 ET by Indiana JoeWhile I understand and share your concerns enumerated above, I still agree with mvf that saying we won't even have a 2010 election is, at this point, a bit premature, to say the least. The only way I can think of that happening is if:
Obama wins in November.
The domestic situation gets so bad that he declares martial law,
He manages to maintain that through the next election, and figures a way to cancel voting because of it.
Highly unlikely so far, considering that condition #1 hasn't even been met yet.
And I'm not convinced it will, either.
"... smells like.... victory." - Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now
Being a student of Bible
October 10, 2008 - 12:22 ET by ricklailBeing a student of Bible prophecy, I look at how this crisis in the stock market happened so suddenly. In The Revelation of Jesus Christ there is a mention of how the world's economy crashes in just one day. I didn't use to think that was possible but now I believe it can and will happen. I would say more of an economic disaster as to which this country may cease to exist. It has happened with some of the greatest nations in history. Here is one example. There was a time when it was said that the sun never sat on the British Empire. It that true today? Great Britian is a former shell of itself. No longer a world power militarily or economically.
We are so close to becoming a socialist society that Obama will finally push us over the edge. Will we be Chinese or European commies? I just don't believe we will last 2 years under an Obama administration.
"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer
Not exactly.
October 10, 2008 - 13:16 ET by mvfreeman"Great Britian is a former shell of itself. No longer a world power militarily or economically. "
The economy of the U.K. is still in the top 5 in the world by some measurements:
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP_PPP.pdf
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNI.pdf
Since they are part of NATO they are still a dominant military power. They didn't have any trouble with Argentina and are our strongest military ally in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are one of the few countries that are on par with us in military training and equipment.
Relax
October 10, 2008 - 12:09 ET by mvfreeman"If he does, though, I think it would encourage the MSM to continue in the Dem tank even more than they are doing currently"
I can't find a link I saw on Instapundit but it basically mentioned that because the media is so in the tank for O that immediately after the election they will begin writing positive articles about the economy. And this crisis should be over by the time O takes office. The MSM will be working over time to push economic confidence. Just like they were pushing a recession for months because of the coming election. Same thing happened when Kerry ran against Bush.
Just wish more people realized the president has no direct control over the economy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/05/AR2008020502876.html
Scenario
October 10, 2008 - 13:37 ET by JasonPFor Rick Lail and MV, a simplified scenario as to why we may not last as the country we know and love today.
Many, including Rush, have cited this election is very similar to the '76 Presidential election in which we have a moderate Repulican running against an ultra liberal democrat.
As Carter won, and turned into the worst president in this country's history, he was defeated by one of the greatest in Ronald Reagan after only 1 term.
The US, through leadership of Reagan, finally ended the reign of the USSR. But communism survived, as did its moles in place within the US.
The lesson was not lost on these enemies of the US. They will not allow that 1 term to go by again, as it may produce the next Reagan.
Nor will they allow those 2 years to pass, as it did with Clinton, for conservatives to gain control of Congress for the necessary check and balance to a liberal administration.
They will now have a complicit collaborator in the White House, not the gullible vessel they had in Carter.
Their opportunity for the ultimate strike comes within the first 2 years of the new administration of Obama. That is the opening they have been waiting for since Carter left office.
With Chinese companies owning both sides of the Panamanian Canal, and the Russian military arming Venezuela and performing joint military exercises with them among other tactical maneuvers, the preparations have been made.
Scary
October 10, 2008 - 13:57 ET by cvgbuckeyejasonP: There is more to the scenario, I fear.
I reckon if we were privy to the White House morning security breifings, we would all be hiding under our desks. Bin Laden has got to be dancing in his cave at the opportunities being presented by this financial crisis. He knows that we are extremely vulnerable right now.
If we were to be hit, in the next five minutes, by ANYTHING akin to the attacks of 911, we would then have a financial melt-down that would make the last two weeks look like a Sunday picnic. Makes you wonder how many attempts have been thwarted over the last two weeks. Makes you wonder if the BIG MOOMAW that has been planned over the last seven years is about to be unleashed.
Makes me wonder about the timing of the election of a Marxists to the White House. If we were hit right now, we would not have the money to fly our troops back from the middle east.
Oh well, so much for non-productive hand wringing.