Open Thread


For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: irrational pessimism!

Markets are now back to where they were in March 2003, and close to their lowest levels in more than a decade. A gentleman on CNBC just called this "irrational pessimism."

Are we close to the bottom, or are prices irrelevant, and we're seeing a mad dash for cash?

Finally, does anyone want to talk credit default swaps and why this little-understood insurance derivative is largely the cause of this entire crisis?


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I don't know who to trust

I don't know who to trust and who to listen to right now. Is this a disaster? Is it OK? My general inclination is to believe that it'll all be fine.

Hoping this weekend's G7

Hoping this weekends G7 Econ Summit will at least stem the gushing. US market does bad, Asia and EU follow then US futures follow them. The bad news just get perpetuated until a wrench (or cure) gets thrown into the machine to stop it.

The "market" is unsure/unsettled so stocks continue to drop. Considering that the 3 page original bailout bill grew into the 100's with extensions, etc., AIG get billions then goes on a lavish retreat then gets some more billions, hearings with CEO's goes nowhere ... it's no wonder there is uncertainty. 

Right or wrong the above mentioned items give the perception of "screw you" Joe 6 pack (or Joe 40 oz. to be PC).

"All generalizations are false, including this one.” Mark Twain

The market's are about a

The market's are about a lot more than the US. But a part of what's going on. With all of Obamas claims of fixing the economy. And McCains. The markets are saying you don't know what you're talking about.

Last week we were lectured about spending all that money to prevent a crash. Guess what. The markets haven't been impressed by the politicians. Even if they are going to stick us with the bill.

That being said. I just wrote a check to increase my holdings. The politicians may not have a clue. But there are bargans. 

Limited Disclosure:  I used to belong to the Sierra Club untill they went crazier. Worse of all, I was bribed by Exxon with free New Orleans Saints glasses with fill ups in the 70's.

Trust no one

 
Look at the big picture and try and see what is happening. The markets wanted to (and still want to) correct because almost all the big financial institutions were lying andcooking their books. In 1987 this happened in one day and was done with. Today it is being interfered with by trading restrictions, curbs and government involvement, so is taking longer.

This will eventually bottom out and be done with (at least the market portion) regardless of any 'bailout' or 'rescue' plan or package. 

You want change? Give me a dollar.

c5

c5,

The 1987 collapse was not one day. That's just the day people remember. In reality, the '87 collapse started in the 1st quarter as our dollar began falling against other currencies including the yen and the mark.. To slow this decline, the fed began tightening interest rates which created a HUGE drop in bonds. By August, although stocks had been rallying for months despite the collapse in the dollar and bonds, they finally began retreating. After weeks of declines, they made a final push in late September to a lower high, and then began collapsing in October. 

What most people forget is that the market had dropped from a 2756 high in August 87 to about 2200 the Friday before "The Crash." As such, the market had already declined by about 20 percent before Black Monday's crash. Monday was just the final capitulation.  ns

Balboa: I concur.

Balboa:

I concur. Personally, I have always expected the economy to go for a few years in an up cycle, then drop for a year, then rise again.  It is just the cyclical nature of it all.

I am actually a bit psyched.  I am putting together all of my pennies to invest just after the final drop when I expect the economy to bottom out.  I expect that late next week.

And many of my friends are doing the same.  It is not a lose-lose situation for us since we are not expecting to fully retire yet and do not need our investments to be fully bloomed.  While I expect to retire from the active force late in next year, I still have many years of work ahead of me before I need my cash.

Call me

Just call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe.

---Three weeks ago, or so, this financial crisis was admittedly the result of all of the well-known factors that we are all aware of.

---But it was still manageable utilizing all of the normal financial tools that have always been available to so-called experts.

---Some pretty strenuous,downward, sell-off pressure, resulted.

NOW HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED NEXT THAT MADE THE SITUATION DIFFERENT FROM ANYTHING ELSE WE HAVE EVER SEEN:

1. The American public reacted to the financial crisis by skewing the election polls towards Obama.

2. The MSM, in the tank for Obama, took the opportunity to skew the polls even further towards Obama than they honestly were.

3. The American financial community became very aware that in very short order, the American public was going to install an outright Marxist into the White House while also increasing the Socialists Democrat Party hold on both houses.

4. This is what has triggered the world-wide sell-off and now the entire globe is on the slippery slope and NO-ONE knows how to stop it.

THE ONLY THING THAT WILL BOTTOM THIS THING OUT IS IF AMERICA AND THE ENTIRE WORLD GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS MADNESS OF PUTTING THIS MARXIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE HAS COME TO AN END. 

 

BINGO!!

I think you hit the nail on the head!

(I wish I had a bunch of money that I could go into the market and snatch up some of the bargains that are there...)

McCain/PALIN '08

PALIN/Jindal '12

Rush Limbaugh

As I am typing this, Rush Limbaugh is agreeing with me 100%;; almost word for word!!!!!!!!!!

got some long term

got some long term fundamentals in there too

massive democrat corruption in subrime mortgage land

general gov socialism/redistro of weatlh

un-Christian decline in general business ethics

just to name a few - all springing from the left - as usual

Journalism is the opium of the liberals

Hmmm

"Just call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe. "

I'll go with all of the above.

 

I guess

freeman:

I'll take that to reconfirm that you still have a perfect record:

Zero original thoughts in your life. Congratulations idiot!

LOL

At least they're grounded in reality, unlike your fantasies.

At least

"At least" - Now thats original!

Sigh

"3. The American financial community became very aware that in very short order, the American public was going to install an outright Marxist into the White House while also increasing the Socialists Democrat Party hold on both houses.

"4. This is what has triggered the world-wide sell-off and now the entire globe is on the slippery slope and NO-ONE knows how to stop it. "

Do you have anything, anything at all to back up this assertion besides your and Rush's gut feeling?

The world wants O to be elected remember! They are about to have their wish granted so why are their markets in turmoils as well?

What stated policy of O's do you feel caused this?

What exactly do you disagree with in the articles I linked?

You want blame a meltdown that is happening now on the possibility that a man may be elected in 4 weeks and won't be sworn in for another two months.

mvfreeman,

I'm not about to take sides in this one, just some things in your post caught my eye. I do actually think cvg may have some points that bear on the economy, but I'll let him defend them.

Worries about what Obama may do could have an effect on the economy. I don't see you disagreeing with that, except to say that it wouldn't matter to the world because they want Obama to be elected.

But people here, a lot of them, want Obama, or think they do. The "public," supposedly. That doesn't mean that our financial markets don't take into account what effect Obama's policies may have on the market. Even the most rabid Obama supporter, if an economic speculator, would be planning on how it would affect his portfolio, and would make the appropriate (to him) moves to protect his investments.

I see no reason to assume that pro-Obama speculators in other countries wouldn't see things in the same way, considering how much the American markets effect foreign markets. 

I'm not arguing whether or how much the policies of a potential new administration might affect the markets before an election. I think they do, frankly. I'm just saying that I would expect foreign markets to respond similarly to our markets, given the influence ours have on theirs. Their populations' approval of Obama notwithstanding, IMO. 

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Good points.But...

Obama's election was supposed to be a forgone conclusion months ago. His policies have been available for review on his website for at least as long.

So why is the bottom falling out now if it's all  O's fault?

"But people here, a lot of them, want Obama, or think they do. The "public," supposedly. That doesn't mean that our financial markets don't take into account what effect Obama's policies may have on the market. Even the most rabid Obama supporter, if an economic speculator, would be planning on how it would affect his portfolio, and would make the appropriate (to him) moves to protect his investments. "

So why would they want to elect some one who would have a negative impact on their investments?

O is getting traction in the polls precisely because people feel he will help the economy. Not gonna be to his credit if it does but that's the perception.

His pending election did not trigger this panic sell-off.

I was going...

When I saw this topic, I was just going to post essentially the same thing you did until I read your post lol. I think you nailed it just fine.

I may not know all the details of mortgage backed securities, mark to market rules and whatever, but I'm pretty sure most of the movers and shakers in the world are pretty darn well educated about the failures of Marxism and Socialism and are reacting as you suggest.

Stop the madness. Restore our Constitution, freedom and free markets.

how

dculling:

How then do you come down on the vast wisdom of MindVoidfreeman? Pretty much of an idiot huh?

Ummm...

Ummm, did I miss something? Didn't MVFreeman say, "I'll go with all of the above"? Apparently he was agreeing with you. I probably missed an earlier conversation.

dculling,

Yeah, sorry, you did miss something. mvfreeman said:

"'Just call me crazy, uneducated, naive or a crackpot but here is what I truly believe.'"  (quoting cvgbuckeye)

"I'll go with all of the above."  (responding to that quote)

Not agreeing with his points, but accepting his invitation.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

That's what...

That's what I get for scanning posts as fast as I can lol. There's just too much good stuff here to absorb it all. So many good links to follow too.

Before I learned of Newsbusters I was going to Google News and trying to argue with all the liberals posting in many of the article forums of the liberal online newspapers. In one of those during the height of the media feeding frenzy about Governor Palin, someone from here posted the Newsbusters url and probably saved my sanity. The opinions here are FAR better educated and make better points; I learn a lot. I want to read them all here but just can't keep up.

But is is great to be among so many like minded conservatives even if we disagree a bit. I was feeling pretty alone out there by myself among the masses of brainwashed Liberals.

The most important articles and the most important replies are here and I rarely browse Google News anymore.

Too funny

I link articles to people who are in the housing and financial sector and you refer to a talk show host for affirmation.

If your going to be calling people idiots you should stop at the nearest mirror.

Ah yes

Ahh, now there are some geniuses: people in the housing and financial sector. Now there are some real winners lately. How we lookin in the housing sector; did I ask about the financial sector as well?

You ought to get a new lawyer. I'll offer my services.

Please.

While the game was working those sectors were making a killing. The bubble finally burst just like tech stocks did in the '90s. Does that mean tech people didn't know their business? Of course not. Their companies were over valued like houses were now. Doesnt mean they weren't knowledgeable in their field.

Things will rebound like they did then and in 1987.

You haven't offered any services other than to conflate market performance (which is cyclical) with industry knowledge and profer a theory which has no basis in reality.

Calm down

Calm down, mv. I just decided that as long as you walked by that you looked like a good guy to rag on today. Meant you no harm though. I have no doubt that you are a savvy person.

Main point being, though, The United States of America is rarin back to elect someone to the White House whose past shows very thin, if any content of experience and the character element is strewn with people and places and positions that just scream Marxism. This is not lost upon those in positions of business power in the U S and around the world.

It scares me and I am fearless to a fault. 

HEHE

It's been fun. Truth  be told I am just killing time at work.

I agree that O is one shady character that the media has completely failed to vet.

Ok, I'm starting to see...

Ok, I'm starting to see what's going on here. Apparently you don't think things are that bad. You may certainly have your opinion. I believe it's incumbent on those who wish to protect their freedoms to fear the worst and make sure it doesn't happen.

I indeed fear the worst if Obama is elected and that's based on too many things that are adding up that suggests he is a Marxist at heart pretending to be a center left Democrat.

There is no greater threat to freedom than Marxism.

I also believe the movers and shakers of the world know this as well and they are trying to protect their wealth from a Marxist take over or at least from the no growth of Socialism and is why the market is crashing.

Ok

Dude the market is crashing because a lot of companies in the financial chain got caught holding bad paper. Suddenly they were in the hole for amounts they couldn't possibly hope to cover.

http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/09/updated-summary-of-real-estate-boom.html

Check out that link.

Well, d'oh...

Where did the bad paper come from? Bad socialist policies.

To some degree

From the article:

by August of 2003, the refinancing boom was over. Interest rates for so
called conforming loans, loans to good borrowers, had leveled out. Yet,
interest rates for sub prime continued to get more and more aggressive
well into 2006. With no money down loans being all the rage,
Fannie/Freddie began losing significant market share. At its height,
sub prime accounted for about 40% of the mortgage market. That was
obscene as it usually accounted for somewhere in the neighborhood of
15%. Fannie/Freddie responded by making their own low and no money down
loans more available. (as opposed to the silly and wrong notion that
they did this to respond to lending in low income neighborhoods)

It's true that some banks were pressured into making loans to low income people. But the fact is that those were a small percentage of the no/low money down loans that were being given to everybody and their brother.

Middle class and higher people were being given loans on property that they could not afford if interest rates weren't as low as they were and were basically given loans no questions asked. Of course this was all done under the assumption that real estate values would continue to rise.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were losing market share and jumped on the bandwagon.

I still blame unmitigated greed as a main culprit. Borrowers wanted more house than they could realistically afford and lenders wanted to maximize loans because it cost them next to nothing to borrow from other banks and financial institutions.

But morons like Barney Frank and the like are to blame too because as I'm sure you've heard were telling everyone to move along, nothing to see here. They were using poor people as cover but that is not who got the majority of loans.

bal,

I'm in the same boat, kinda. Not sure, but I don't think it's as bad as they paint it. The bail-out we "needed" seems to have made no difference. The markets are swinging, trending down, but the bottom hasn't fallen out. I just think it's a correction. A big one, and long-overdue, but not an emergency. I think it will settle itself without any <edit: (further)> tampering.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

screaming into the wind

It seems I've left posts here like this one over and over and over... Perhaps its just that I don't like to repeat myself, but I feel like I'm screaming into the wind.

This crisis is serious, and it'll get more serious.  Its primary cause is the bursting of a HUMONGOUS world-wide credit bubble that was made possible by credit derivatives that among other things allowed institutions to hide and shift credit risk. 

Case in point, the CDSs mentioned in the opening diary.  There are tens of trillions in CDSs.  A substantial portion of these CDSs will not provide revenue streams, and will thus become worthless.

Like when the primary weight bearing beam collapses in a building, from the outside you see the structure sag and eventually disintegrate into many parts, the collapsing credit bubble is the primary cause, but its the manifold effects you see.

This is real.  There will be no capitulation as happened in 1987.  In '87 P/E was relatively low. Whereas now P/E is quite high, and earnings are weak and rapidly weakening. 

T7

T7,

Yes, the CDSs are indeed the elephant in the room that no one is talking about, and likely the root cause of all the problem. I finally figured it all out within the last 48 hours, and now understand why the Lehman bankruptcy started this collapse, and why we bailed out AIG.

This problem is MUCH larger than anyone is letting on. The reality is that our banks, brokerage firms, and insurance companies participated in a HUGE Ponzi scheme that unlike such activity in the past was directed at each other. As a result, what might be $1Trillion in bad loans could be having a net default impact of up to $60 Trillion. This is why the $700 billion bailout is irrelevant.

Complicating matters, the poor Lehman auction results today point to just how worthless all these CDSs are. This is why this morning's rally failed. As such, we are not out of the woods yet.  ns

Exactly right Noel, the

Exactly right Noel, the $700 billion bailout is irrelevant.  Only by addressing the cause can we rebuild the economy.  The house of cards set up the libs and Dems will come crashing totally down of it's own inertia.  The question is what to do when the cards are laying on the floor.  As I have stated many times in various ways, only a market solution will restart the economy, not a government one.  The government's response is primarily an accounting issue.  The market requires a REAL response, that being the price of oil.

People can't pay loans if they are unemployed, which is really what started the mess and exposed the house of cards for what it is.  The solution is really quite simple and NO COST to the Taxpayer, drill for oil and gas > increase supply > lower cost energy > employers hire workers > restarts economy. 

As long as the morons in government continue to prattle about AGW, there is no insentive by them to push drilling.  They would rather print money and sell bonds than actually do something concrete to restart the economy because doing otherwise they won't get the credit for saving the economy.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

cause of problem

"People can't pay loans if they are unemployed, which is really what started the mess and exposed the house of cards for what it is."

Unemploymemnt is maybe 6% and has been around 5% for years now.

http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

What started the mess is that people were defaulting on loans they could no longer afford because of ARM's. Which led to mortgage backed securities becoming worthless when property values plummeted.

"The market requires a REAL response, that being the price of oil. "

The price of oil is already down to around $80/bbl. Gas is down around 50cents a gallon in just two weeks.

http://money.cnn.com/data/commodities/

http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/

The immediate problem for employers isn't an energy crunch it's short term credit.

IMO, while you may not think

IMO, while you may not think these two issues are linked what's occurring is two Democrat inspired policies interacting with unforeseen consequences to their agenda. It doesn't take much of an imbalance to start a series of cascade effects moving in different directions. Your reference to ARMs was just another facet of the mortgage meltdown problem. Their AGW agenda via the no drill policy raised energy prices so quickly that employers started laying off low skill workers, those with low FICO scores who were approved to purchase homes under CRA. Once that happened there was no one to buy all the new houses being dumped onto the market.  The increasing housing inventory was part of the cascade effect.  You will find Democrats have a host of agendas that run at cross purposes to each other.  Their solution of course is to throw more money and resources at the problem to mitigate it, just like they are doing now.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

The only things government can do to fix the problem

1. Drastically cut taxes: income, capital gains, corporate taxes ect...

2. Drastically reduce spending (which may mean pulling out of Iraq)

3. Liquidate Feddie and Fannie, AIG, and let all the investment banks fail.

4. Start repealing any law that interferes in the market.

absolutely

Noel, yes, yes, and absolutely.  Its so outragous that reasonable people can hardly imagine it.

This is definitely not good = Inflationary Depression

So far the government is proceeding down the worst possible path which is to socialize the mortgage and financial industries, turn the treasury secretary into a financial czar, create trillions of dollars out of thin air (bailouts) all in a futile effort to prevent the market from correcting itself. Not Bush, Paulson, Congress or the Fed can stop the market. Home prices are overvalued and must come down to reality. So now instead of just getting a recession we could possibly face an inflationary depression.

Obama ad about his mother ...

leaves out the fact that he was to busy to visit his dying mother or attend her funeral. I'm glad I made the time to sit with my mother when she was dying from cancer even though I lived across the country with a young family and only had a few thousand dollars in my savings account. It was worth every minute and every penny. I guess I really love my mother.


Why couldn't he help her with her bills? Why didn't she go to Pakistan or Indonesia to get free health care? I don't understand.

Jayke,

Are you questioning Obama? Racist!

Seriously, those are great questions. Too bad no one else will ask them.

Sorry about your mother.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Wow Jayke.....thats the...

first time I heard that.  It makes him even more slimey in my eyes........He has the gall to stand on her corpse, and use her as a prop.....what a low class DIRTBAG!!! 

"If a man does his best, what else is there"?

General George S. Patton Jr.

Domestic spying unhinged

http://abcnews.go.co...

"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News. 

Spying on our soldiers private calls back home?  If this proves to be true, someone deserves jail time.

As I have stated before,

As I have stated before, phones eminating from US facilities in theater (And on military posts and facilities stateside) are all subject to monitoring for OPSEC purposes.  Usually, each phone has a truly obnoxious sticky label on it that says "THis phone is subject to monitoring for OPSEC Purposes".  THis monitoring is legal and necessary.

THe use of the infomation gathered for prurient purposes is not authorized and those who have admitted to it should face charges. 

 

EXACTLY!

Also all phone calls that originate outside the US or those that call foreign numbers from inside the US are subject to surveillance.

Those who listen in and pick the 'jucy' ones are doing so for their own entertainment and therefore are derilict in their duties. These 'whistleblowers' are the ones who are breaking the rules and possibly the law.

You want change? Give me a dollar.

Spying on our soldiers

Spying on our soldiers private calls back home? If this proves to be true, someone deserves jail time. Yes this is good that we monitor the communications of our soldiers.   No jailtime.  Newsbusters covered this earlier. Not all in the military are for the USA.  Remember the start of Iraq invasion when the soldier threw a grenade into a command tent?  We must be vigilant an alert at all times.  The world needs more LERTS.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

A fair point

However, there is clearly some unprofessional if not outright illegal behavior going on here.  Something still smells funny.  Would you as a colonel pick up a phone with one of those obnoxious stickers and engage in pillow talk/phone sex?  Is that done?  Just another bit of privacy sacrificed in the name of service to country?  I ask out of sincere ignorance having never enlisted.

TSA monitors should be prosecuted

Those TSA agents that monitored, then shared that info with the press, should be prosecuted for violation of privacy. What they did (monitoring) was legal (and necessary). What the TSA agents did with the tapes (sharing with friends/the press) was illegal.

McCain/PALIN '08

PALIN/Jindal '12

Look at the relevant NB

Look at the relevant NB article and comments.  One interesting thing is the idiot saying these things is a "former" analyst.  So it indicates she was the one who was eavesdropping and making such comments.  Probably got cashiered for such behavior she was mentioning.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Is it done? People are

Is it done? People are people.  Stick someone 6000 miles away from their girlfriend and interesting things happen.

Have I ever engaged in "Pillow Talk" on a government phone?  I imagine I have sometime in the past 23 years, though I cannot recall an instance of anything truly interesting I have said on such a phone. 

During the first Gulf War the only method of communicating to home was a series of big open bay fest tents run by ATT that had about 100 phones in them for people to either use an ATT Credit Card to call home, or reverse the charges.  Very few offices had any capability to call home on a governmental line.  Even still the conversations one could overhear from the guy at the next phone were a bit salty at times.

Today, virtually EVERY office has this capability to call home due to the revolutions in communications that the Signal Corps has provided.  Most offices have a policy of allowing the troops to use the phones for personal purposes for a few minutes each week to call home.  The greater anonymity of this new capability probably allows more "Interesting" conversations to take place from offices.

I do not consider it a privacy sacrificed since I realize that the phone lines can and likely occasionally will be monitored by someone to verify OPSEC.  Most of my conversations in the past were pretty mundane, and likely will continue to be so.  But I imagine others are not so restrained.

By the way, the stickers are obnoxious because they tend to absorb human hand sweat and thus turn black and really NASTY over time.  Many troops while away their time slowly scraping them off the hansets.

Keep in mind, the

Keep in mind, the listening-in is a distasteful, but necessary and legal, part of any war and, I think, any military service (overseas in a combat zone, anyway). The violation here is by the soldiers whose duty it is to perform that "listening-in," and make the judgement of what's relevant and what's not. To continue to listen in, or to disseminate what they hear, once it's clear the call is innocent is completely on the individuals doing it.

The violation of law/policy/decency here is the fault of the violators, not those that created the law/policy.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Smoking Hot,

You're right, someone deserves to be disciplined for this shameless behavior. ABC has performed a great service here, and should call for the immediate investigation of these soldiers who have abused their authority, misused their power, neglected their duties, and violated their fellow soldiers right to privacy. If this were (shudder) a Kerry Administration, ABC would be calling this an "internal disciplinary matter."

I posted similar thoughts at the comments for the link. "Chicago_Al1956." I'm wondering if it will get approved. But, similar points were being raised by others. Thank God that BDS hasn't completely taken over.

My own belief is that this

My own belief is that this is quite possibly the beginning of the Global Govt. As a Bible believing Christian and one who has studied prophecy for over 30 years, it looks like a global currency is coming.

The natural progession would be to then have a governing body and then a leader of that body. Nowhere in prophecy do we see the US as a role player. I'm afraid we are seeing the decline of the US. If we go into a depression, most people would surrender their rights in a heartbeat. Control of the masses is coming. Factor in the possibilty of a socialist like Obama (and he is, don't even argue) and he'd lead us that way anyways, whether we wanted it or not. Judgement on the US has reached it's ultimate end. We are the suppliers of porn, abortion and anything that is "pleasure". We are modern Rome and just like Rome, when a nation emraces homosexuality, it's demise is soon after. Billy Graham once said that "If God does not judge America then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."

There is a run on ammo, guns, food and even Mason jars. Expect the best but, prepare for the worst. 

Gregfahey

You are correct, Greg. All signs point to a nationalized government. Under Obama, it will come --- a Marxist government with a fascist leadership. Think about it. We already have a nationalized press and "education" system, who are busy indoctrinating citizens. Now the "economy" is moving toward nationalization. Why is it so important who is the next Treasury Secretary? Will he/she run the "free market"? The free market is dead. The Obamas, Michelle and Barry, are committed Marxists, whose "associates" are the same. They all want to "change" America. Duh! America, as it was founded, may be over. Sad.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

Must be good stuff...

That you're smoking.

"Under Obama, it will come --- a Marxist government with a fascist leadership."

So now Obama is gonna dissolve congress and the supreme court? Hardly. If O tries to do anything that the majority disagrees with then the oppostion party is going to gain control of congress, just as it did when Clinton tried to go way left.

"We already have a nationalized press and "education" system, who are busy indoctrinating citizens. "

While the media is undoubtedly liberal it has not been nationalized. It is still under private ownership.

And the public education system is being screwed by teachers unions but is still controlled by local school boards, not the national government. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

 

 

The problem...

The problem is whether the majority will disagree with him or not. With an extreme Leftist as President and filibuster proof Democrat controlled Congress there will be no stopping them and they know it. Are you suggesting they won't use that power for political gain? I believe their past behavior suggests they most certainly will.

This is not the age of George McGovern, Herbert Humphrey and the like anymore. This is in fact the most partisan Congress I have ever seen.

If Obama wins it will become quite apparent that the checks and balances that our Founding Fathers put in our Constitution as safeguards against oppression are indeed long gone.

Not that worried

It seems evident that the electorate is still fairly evenly split. Once a party has been in power for several elections it will eventually favor the party that's out of power. That's how a lot of presidents got elected. Because one party or the other fell out of favor for whatever reason.

O has two years to f**k it up and I guarantee you his approval numbers will nose dive and the republicans will pick up seats. So he'll have a friendly congress for two years max. And keep in mind that this same congress has an approval rating lower than whale dung.

I don't see O having long coattails as far as congressional races. I think its gonna be everyone for themselves.

I have to agree with you.

I have to agree with you. This is something that has been in the works for a while.

 

This is the change obama is promising

Good grief

"If God does not judge America then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."

You don't think there are any righteous people left in the USA?

 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake.

"Factor in the possibilty of a socialist like Obama (and he is, don't even argue) and he'd lead us that way anyways, whether we wanted it or not"

How? Is O gonna suspend the constitution? You sound as silly as liberals and their paranoid delusions.

Remember when Clinton was first elected and he tried to swing left? What happened next? The republicans swept congress in '94.

If the country survived Clinton it can handle Obama.

"Remember when Clinton was

"Remember when Clinton was first elected and he tried to swing left? What happened next? The republicans swept congress in '94."

That's a good point. I do think Obama is worse than Clinton, and I'd rather he didn't win. If he does, though, I think it would encourage the MSM to continue in the Dem tank even more than they are doing currently, with the aim to prevent a repeat of '94. Would they be successful? I don't know. 

Either way, I'd rather not risk it.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Joe

I have thought about that too. Unfortunely I don't think we'll last 2 years under Obama. There won't be a 2010 election.

"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer

Just curious...

"There won't be a 2010 election."

What's your scenario?

If it's anything less than nuclear armageddon I'm not buying it.

2010 Election

So you really believe that we are having a 2008 free election:

1. 95% plus of all minorities are voting for Obama due to his race.

2. The MSM, being in the tank for Obama, has had an Obama swing that could not have been counteracted with 10 times the campaign funds, combined, of both parties.

3. ACORN and other Marxist illegal voter activities have made an appreciable difference that cannot even be calculated and even if it could it will be years to late.

4. Misinformation by Hollywood elites and universities have swayed misinformed and young voters to a great degree and will bring them out to the polls in hordes.

5. State governments, contrlled by dems (example Ohio) have dipped their beaks into mafioso like activities to sway elections for Obama.

AND YOU WANT PROOF THAT THE 2010 ELECTION WILL NOT TAKE PLACE? HELL MAN, 2008 AIN'T TAKIN PLACE! WAKE UP!

Ok

I agree with you on #'s 1and 2. Even though at this point McCain is still close in some polls.

As far as number 3 goes ACORN is already being investigated and if I'm not mistaken has already had names removed from voter rolls. While serious I don't  believe it rises to the level of voter fraud of let's say Zimbabwe.

Partially agree with # 4. However, not all young people are getting brainwashed by liberal professors and Jon Stewart. Give them some credit. My son graduated from USNA in '07 with a B.S. in poli-sci and is pretty conservative. My daughter (who isnt the most intelligent girl)still recognizes that the media is fellating O and dumping on republicans. And she didnt hear that from me.

Also, the number of young people who voted in the 2004 didn't meet expectations despite all of the "Vote or Die" retards on MTV.

Do you have any links for #5? Are people being intimidated into voting for O? Kind of hard to do considering our elections use secret ballots.

Ohio

I was referring to the dem secretary of state in Ohio that is allowing registering and voting in one fell swoop. AND being now mandated to confirm all new registrations before certifying their vote, she has appealed.

Other dem controlled states are following suit. They even refuse to require any kind of personal identification prior to registering and voting.

cvg,

While I understand and share your concerns enumerated above, I still agree with mvf that saying we won't even have a 2010 election is, at this point, a bit premature, to say the least. The only way I can think of that happening is if:

  1. Obama wins in November.

  2. The domestic situation gets so bad that he declares martial law,

  3. He manages to maintain that through the next election, and figures a way to cancel voting because of it.

Highly unlikely so far, considering that condition #1 hasn't even been met yet.

And I'm not convinced it will, either.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Being a student of Bible

Being a student of Bible prophecy, I look at how this crisis in the stock market happened so suddenly. In The Revelation of Jesus Christ there is a mention of how the world's economy crashes in just one day. I didn't use to think that was possible but now I believe it can and will happen. I would say more of an economic disaster as to which this country may cease to exist.  It has happened with some of the greatest nations in history. Here is one example. There was a time when it was said that the sun never sat on the British Empire. It that true today? Great Britian is a former shell of itself. No longer a world power militarily or economically.

We are so close to becoming a socialist society that Obama will finally push us over the edge. Will we be Chinese or European commies? I just don't believe we will last 2 years under an Obama administration.

"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer

Not exactly.

"Great Britian is a former shell of itself. No longer a world power militarily or economically. "

The economy of the U.K. is still in the top 5 in the world by some measurements: 

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP_PPP.pdf

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNI.pdf

Since they are part of NATO they are still a dominant military power. They didn't have any trouble with Argentina and are our strongest military ally in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are one of the few countries that are on par with us in military training and equipment.

Relax

"If he does, though, I think it would encourage the MSM to continue in the Dem tank even more than they are doing currently"

I can't find a link I saw on Instapundit but it basically mentioned that because the media is so in the tank for O that immediately after the election they will begin writing positive articles about the economy. And this crisis should be over by the time O takes office. The MSM will be working over time to push economic confidence. Just like they were pushing a recession for months because of the coming election. Same thing happened when Kerry ran against Bush.

Just wish more people realized the president has no direct control over the economy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/05/AR2008020502876.html

Scenario

For Rick Lail and MV, a simplified scenario as to why we may not last as the country we know and love today.

Many, including Rush, have cited this election is very similar to the '76 Presidential election in which we have a moderate Repulican running against an ultra liberal democrat.

As Carter won, and turned into the worst president in this country's history, he was defeated by one of the greatest in Ronald Reagan after only 1 term.

The US, through leadership of Reagan, finally ended the reign of the USSR. But communism survived, as did its moles in place within the US.

The lesson was not lost on these enemies of the US. They will not allow that 1 term to go by again, as it may produce the next Reagan.

Nor will they allow those 2 years to pass, as it did with Clinton, for conservatives to gain control of Congress for the necessary check and balance to a liberal administration.

They will now have a complicit collaborator in the White House, not the gullible vessel they had in Carter.

Their opportunity for the ultimate strike comes within the first 2 years of the new administration of Obama. That is the opening they have been waiting for since Carter left office.

With Chinese companies owning both sides of the Panamanian Canal, and the Russian military arming Venezuela and performing joint military exercises with them among other tactical maneuvers, the preparations have been made.

Scary

jasonP: There is more to the scenario, I fear.

I reckon if we were privy to the White House morning security breifings, we would all be hiding under our desks. Bin Laden has got to be dancing in his cave at the opportunities being presented by this financial crisis. He knows that we are extremely vulnerable right now.

If we were to be hit, in the next five minutes, by ANYTHING akin to the attacks of 911, we would then have a financial melt-down that would make the last two weeks look like a Sunday picnic. Makes you wonder how many attempts have been thwarted over the last two weeks. Makes you wonder if the BIG MOOMAW that has been planned over the last seven years is about to be unleashed.

Makes me wonder about the timing of the election of a Marxists to the White House. If we were hit right now, we would not have the money to fly our troops back from the middle east.

Oh well, so much for non-productive hand wringing. 

Interesting

I was with you until this...

" They will now have a complicit collaborator in the White House, not the gullible vessel they had in Carter.

Their opportunity for the ultimate strike comes within the first 2 years of the new administration of Obama. That is the opening they have been waiting for since Carter left office. "

Are you suggesting a military strike that O will invite and then not retaliate against? Or a convergence of enemies that will overwhelm us?

Just trying to see how the 2010 elections would be suspended.

You guys are such pessimists.

;)

 

Possibly

The former rather than the latter

JasonP,

The former? As in, a strike Obama wouldn't retaliate against? An overwhelming strike, that would mean defeat? I don't think you mean that, so I'll address the other scenario.

I think any strike against us that was not responded to would not be tolerated by Americans. I think that would seal Obama's fate, and make him the first President to be convicted by impeachment.

No way could anything remotely like that be accepted.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

impossible to predict

Its impossible to predict such things, but one thing is for sure, the globalists will take every advantage they can of this crisis.  OTOH the crisis in and of itself is just as likely to ruin international currencies and supra-national structures (e.g. EU and the Euro) as it is to foster them. 

More of Obama's abuse of power in the Illinois Senate

h/t WND: Judicial Watch has uncovered more indiscretion by Obama. 

[Character matters for the office of POTUS. Obama has none.]

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.

LK,

"Character matters for the office of POTUS."

Isn't that what we said about Clinton? Turns out, we was wrong.

FTR, I agree with you. But history shows people will still elect someone with questionable character.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Amazes me that emotional

Amazes me that emotional references (and, I realize with some degree this is a reality) ride into the market as they do. 

When the words, fears and concerns are used, these seem to be such intangible and flighty reasons for losses. Fear that the stocks will tank, because fear is the driving reason they are tanking?

As said before,  some stimulus will 'calm' the market, and it will start going up again, interesting.

 

 

 

But one thing is definite

When the market starts going back up (and it will) it will not go up anywhere near as fast as it dropped.

So the question that rational investors have to ask themselves is: "is the drop done, or is there more to go?" along with: "how long can I wait to recover the losses?"

If you don't have another 10 years to recover, and you think there is more downside coming, it might be better to bail out now and minimize the loss and then get back in later after the market has started to recover. The question there is how painfull will it be to lock in 40% losses if your wrong and you wind up selling at the bottom?

I have my son's college tuition to deal with in 4 years. I don't have the time to try and recover from last week. Do I bail now and save whatever is left in the college fund, or do I chance it and risk my son's future? These are the issues I am wrestling with right now.

You want change? Give me a dollar.

I always thought the

I always thought the question was "Well, punk, do ya feel lucky ... do ya?" 

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Perspective.

That's the question that you have to ask right before you click the 'submit' button to re-allocate your investments in the college fund.

;-)

You want change? Give me a dollar.

"I have my son's college

"I have my son's college tuition to deal with in 4 years. I don't have the time to try and recover from last week."

Best of luck with that. I'm sincerely pulling for you.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

If Obama just came out and

If Obama just came out and said that he wouldnt raise taxes on the richest 5%, the driving force in a market such as this one, the markets would start to go up.

 

Instead investors are worried about what will happen to them if Obama is actually elected and therefore are reacting now just incase it gets worse nov 4th.

 

Good point. I wouldn't be

Good point. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a component driving the market.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Two Questions:(Update)

1/ If the economy is so bad, is Obama still getting campaign contributions?

2/ Why are corporations still running commercials? 

Then there's this: "According to papers available at CBS's headquarters in New York, the [Obama] campaign agreed Monday to pay $961,000 for the entire 8-8:30 pm time period." It's hard out there for a pimp! 

The Philosophy of Risk

These financial packages were a way to "cheat" risk. Instead of sticking to prudent risks, they bundled some bad risks with good ones. They tried to hide the bad risks. Now, others can discuss the economics of that tactic, but let me carve some space for the philosophy involved here. You may not think that philosophy belongs in this discussion, but I'll argue that it is absolutely central to the whole affair. 

  • Philosophy spends a lot of its time on epistemology, which is the study of knowledge. Knowledge and risk are intimately tied together. Knowledge presumes certainty. Most people act when they're certain, but don't act when they're not certain. Science, for instance, works on the principle that you shouldn't act unless you have acceptable evidence. Law works on the principle that you cannot punish without acceptable evidence. Those professions trade in certainty.
  • Human life would be a lot easier if we could sit back and wait for certainty, but God apparently didn't think that kind of life was fun enough. Often we're compelled to make decisions when the evidence is incomplete, but we have to decide anyway. We have to commit although we're not certain: we call that faith. It may be religious faith, or faith in ideologies, or faith in traditions -- but no matter what the flavor, we're constantly asked to live on faith.

This whole economic crisis is a test of faith. Not our faith in God, but our faith in each other. And it's all circular. My faith in you depends on your faith on him, and he's not sure of her, because she's not sure of me. It's all subjective. It's all cyclical. Someone has to trust first.

My point? A man who inspires confidence could break this cycle. We're looking for someone who trusts us as much as he trusts himself. Obama trusts himself, but I doubt he has much faith in us. That's why these radical leftist, "clinging to guns and religion" comments have so much impact - they reveal that he doesn't really trust America that much. McCain's better, but we're really looking for someone who can inspire more than blame.

Makes you appreciate Ronald Reagan, doesn't it?

KC,

I like your reasoning. I think the market really does boil down to trust, like you say. We even measure it and call it "confidence," right? But that really comes down to trusting that the confidence isn't misplaced, and trusting those that try to measure that confidence. And trusting that they're really being honest, instead of manipulating information for another reason; for politics, for self-aggrandizement, for profit.

I recall a down-turn (not when, though) when the pundits were saying that it would be fine if no one panicked and sold precipitously. I stayed in my MF, trusting my fellow investors to be prudent. They weren't, and I took a loss. But the decision was, ultimately, based on trust.

Good post.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

please delete double post

please delete - server hiccuping on me

Game theory - think this might work?

Robert Axelrod wrote a book called "The Evolution of Cooperation," a game theory classic. In it, Axelrod showed that in a hostile environment of non-cooperation, the best solution is not to try and force the whole group to cooperate. That never works. Instead, small coalitions of mutual cooperators will "break out," because their success doesn't depend on the whole. They sustain each other. Over time, when the coalitions become dependable cooperators, the rest of the population gravitates toward them.

  1. In this case, there have to be some lenders who were prudent enough not to get saddled by bad paper. Otherwise, look for people who have available cash to get into the lending business, starting small, but rejecting bad risks.
  2. If there are enough prudent lenders, look for them to form coalitions among themselves first.
  3. Then, of course, once they prove strong, every business that needs loans will flock to them.
  4. In turn, the prudent lenders - if they play their hand right - will have a feast of dependable clients. They can make huge money without having to take any bad risks.
  5. Once they're off and running, that's when the Fed can nudge them along to lower the rates.
  6. With lower rates, it'll widen the availability of credit, while still rejecting bad risks.
  7. That's when widespread recovery will begin.

Cooperation (in this case, the willingness to extend credit) can't be forced from the top down. It has to emerge naturally. It has to evolve. That's why I don't like the bailouts. If Axelrod is right, I predict that some of the smaller, old-fashioned lenders will emerge very strong, and they'll be the catalysts for the recovery.

Everything must be viewed

Everything must be viewed in context.

The price of oil today is flirting with $80/barrel, we have $10 more dollars to drop to 2006 levels before the economy restarts.  T minus $10 and counting before liftoff.  Until oil hits approx $70/barrel the stock market will continue to drop and the dollar will hold it's value against the Euro to offset any financial moves of the Treasury and Fed.

At $70/barrel, the price of gasoline will level off around $2.50/gallon thus setting in motion a low enough cost savings for businesses to recoup their losses from the run up and then start hiring workers.  At that point the economic recovery will begin.  Please note that anything the Fed, Treasury or nimcompoops in the government do will only keep treading water, not make it better.  Only market forces can make the economy better.

Current 10 year Treasury bonds are going for 4.14% (return on investment or ROI), that means if you are stock investor, the value of your stock must have a PE multiple of 24 or less to be in that stock.  Here are the components of the Dow 30 Index, take a look at the individual component PEs. I see most of them less than half of the equivalent PE of the 10 year bond, which means these stocks are under valued by about 50% or more in terms of income stream.  The current price declines are in ANTCIPATION of a RECESSION, not reality.  Therefore under normal circumstances now is the time to buy up all this cheap stock, however, like I said at the beginning, until the price of oil drops to $70/barrel to restart the economy. Antcipating the recession is determining the recession value of the stocks, so what value might that be?  In the Dot Com bust 2001 and 911 inspired drop in 2003, the bottom was around 7,500 on the Dow.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

Obama's Infomercial

The MSM has declared Obama a winner. Talking heads repeat that every day. Obama's official presidential seal is getting its final coat of varnish. The race is over.

So,

(1) Why is Obama spending $Millions on a 30-minute infomercial on CBS in prime time? And considering additional events on Fox and NBC?

(2) Why is ACORN signing up the Dallas Cowboys in all the so-called "swing" states? Why is Ohio's Sec of State trying so hard to prevent the "instant-voting" votes from being investigated? Why is Obama spending $800K on ACORN? Why does ACORN only sign up Democrats?

Obama certainly is not sure about victory. Wonder what his internal polls are telling him? Why do Palin crowds have such a large turnout? Why haven't we seen any reports/pictures about the size of Obama crowds lately?

Questions.....

___________________________________ 

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber

TnT - would like to hear MSM's take on this

I wonder the same thing... you ask some great questions. I don't think we will get the answers until Nov 5th.

 

McCain/PALIN '08

PALIN/Jindal '12

TnT

Good questions all. I think the current confidence of the left is all smoke and mirrors. They wouldn't be so aggressive on attack and defense if they were really as certain as they claim.

This ain't over.

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Just wondering...

 ...Isn't the last day the market went up, the day or day after they voted down the original bailout?

 Dan

 

++++++++++++++++


Normally I don't root for the disease. But in your case I am willing to make and exception.

So Much for the Bailout

Nothing like a huge tax on the innocent, and the pepetuation of moral hazard to sink the market.

Can we have our money back yet?

 Is there anyone filing for an injunction against the Bailout in the courts?  I gotta think there must be, but any reports don't seem to be forthcoming.

NS

I've been reading about credit default swaps.

Now I understand.  Unbelievable.

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

lawyers created the Finacial Crisis -- which ticket has no Lawye

ACORN had Obama the Lawyer pursuing Mortgage companies . . . It is a matter of public record in Illinois . .Court Dockets
Congress is FULL of LAWYERS !!

The Republican Revolution will not be Televised

CDS and the Tie to Sub-Prime

Ben Stein has a good article about the role of Credit Default Swaps.

Basically, they are a false form of insurance that were tightly linked to the high risk mortgages (read sub-prime).  So once those started forclosing in record number, the insurance (which wasn't really backed up with capital) wasn't able to pay.  Now everyone is wondering what stuff is actually worth since it seems it got way over-valued.

Of course, he explains it better.

Try this one

It goes into much more detail.

Check out the graphics.  Notice the growth of the CDS market...doubling every year since 2001.  Then note the size of the CDS outstanding vis-a-vis the World's GNP.

Staggering. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

People are cashing out of the market for one reason-

The stark realization that Barack Hussein Obama is going to be the next POTUS.

They are getting out while the getting is good.

-Dave

If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.

cashing out?

And where do we go when Obama and company nationalize our banks? We'd better stick our cash under the mattress. For anyone to be even talking about someone who is so far left actually becoming POTUS is freightening. How many lambs will go to slaughter on Nov.4th? It's the culmination of years of American apathy. It's here, folks. Sad.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

Ummm, No. If you really

Ummm, No. If you really believe that then buy gold. (Sarc would drop dead from shock if he heard that from me)  If Obama gets in office inflation will be a big issue since he and his ilk love to pump prime the economy like they did in Carter and Nixion's days.  Pump priming via deficit spending was never more than a short term fix, thus subjecting the economy to greater swings. 

http://www.monex.com/expert/how-much-gold-is-enough.html ticker on top of page

http://www.nymex.com/gol_fut_cso.aspx graphics

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

Thanks Joe

My mother was a saint and I miss her very much.  I love you mom.

The information about Obama is so sketchy I'm not 100% sure about his not attending his mother's funeral.  I did further Googling and found that he may have gone to a memorial service to spread her ashes but I still can't find any information about her funeral.  I find it very odd that his grandparents are so out of sight.  It seems he has a very tight control of all information about his background. 

 

Why the Bailout Failed

The Libertarian View 

Its as good an explanation as any other I have heard.

-Dave

If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.

Dave

Did you happen to watch Criminal Minds the other night? They were ranting and raving over a religious sect like the Branch Davidians. They kept mentioning Libertarins. I was mad at the way they were painting Libertarians. The end was so ironic. They quoted Ayn Rand. She was one of the founders of libertarian thought. Rather odd to me they would trash Libertarians then quote one.

"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer

rick,

That's okay.

We who tend to lean in the libertarian direction are used to it.

LOL-Sometimes I think the left is more afraid of libertarians than they are of conservatives. After all, the concept of ultimate freedom must terrify the lefties of this world.

-Dave

If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.

Anyone remember Chris Dodd (D-CT)...

...and the sweetheart mortgage deal he got from Countrywide?  Well, contrary to his protestations of ignorance of any deal, apparently Dodd KNEW EXACTLY what he was getting:

 "Former Countrywide Financial loan officer Robert Feinberg says Mr. Dodd knowingly saved thousands of dollars on his refinancing of two properties in 2003 as part of a special program the California mortgage company had for the influential. He also says he has internal company documents that prove Mr. Dodd knew he was getting preferential treatment as a friend of Angelo Mozilo, Countrywide's then-CEO.

That a "Friends of Angelo" program existed is not in dispute. It was crucial to the boom that Countrywide enjoyed before its fortunes turned. While most of the company was aggressively lending to risky borrowers and off-loading those mortgages in bulk to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Mr. Feinberg's department was charged with making sure those who could influence Fannie and Freddie's appetite for risk were sufficiently buttered up. As a Banking Committee bigshot, Mr. Dodd was perfectly placed to be buttered."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122360116724221681.html

My, my, my.  I think we need a Senate ethics investigation and in depth 60 Minutes and Nightline reports, don't you? 

No wait, can't do that. Those sorts of things are only for Republicans.

Investigations by

Investigations by Congressional Committees?  You think they will find the proper culprits when the ones who made the decisions are the very people running the investigations???  Does anyone seriously think Chris Dodd or Barney Frank is going to investigate and find themselves as the part of the problem?  The Congressional Committees are only out to find patsies to cover themselves.  Hey, someone has to pay.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

Obama

If, God forbid, Barry gets elected, do you believe he will investigate anyone (except maybe Bush and Cheney)? The Fannie Mae crook is HIS chief financial advisor. America is in deep soup. Let's admit it. McCain is our only "hope". Isn't that ironic.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

Not ironic, it's just

Not ironic, it's just sickening that the choice is between Democrat and Democrat lite. The next four years politically is going to be one of constant warfare in Congress, if you thought the last two years were bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.

Prester. You might appreciate these stories as well..

Prester. You might appreciate these stories as well.. (:~> gary

Countrywide's Many 'Friends' - June ‘08

Angelo's Friends - slide show

Angelo's Fannie Pac - Some former Countrywide cronies have found comfy jobs at Fannie and Freddie

Angelo's Many "Friends" - Aug, ‘08

How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis - Bloomberg

Congress Lies Low To Avoid Bailout Blame IBD Terry Jones 09_19_08

Oh.. and surprise surprise:

New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae "The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." NY Times Sept. 10, 2003.

Off the subject, but not so much

I believe the financial mess is also tied to the moral mess. For example, I picked up a book at a used book store yesterday. It is a book of short stories by E.L. Doctorow. On the cover it said that  the stories are a "dazzling exploration of who we are as a people". Five  Sweet Land Stories about "us". Nice, I thought. Then within three pages of the first story, the filth starts. How nice. Human dignity brought into the gutter. Yet E.L. Doctorow is tauted in our "schools" as a shining example of wonderful literature. Is this is where we've come? Thanks, "liberals".

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

Queers

Here's another case where four (4) people have changed the culture of the United States in the face of centuries of human civilization. Connecticut's so-called supreme court ruled 4-3 that queers can marry.

A perfect case of extreme liberals of the Democrat party telling every human being on the planet -- "screw you! We don't care what you think; we don't care how this country was established; and we certainly don't believe the definitions you have created nor the behavior that has allowed Western civilization to thrive. We, the surpreme liberal democrats of socialism, have declared that we -- not you -- will define what marriage is. Now go away and shut up before we throw you in jaul. We are gods; our decisions are indestructable; and your values are no better than sewage".

I, for one, have had it. This has got to stop. Four liberal people have no right -- none whatsoever -- to redefine marriage. These people are doing this because they have protection from the ever-creeping socialists that are invading our country and destroying our civilization.

___________________________________ 

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber

People need to calm down and stop reacting

To answer Newsbusters questions, I would ask people to calm down and stop reacting like a bunch of pigeons flushed from the park when a few dogs scare them.

What has been occurring is a massive shift of wealth. I noted that Bush 43 was forced by the Clinton ripping billions out of the economy when a  recession was on, due to 9 11, to print up 1 trillion dollars.
This is what the expensive grain and oil was about as after that money was tapped out of the busted housing market which started in France and spread this chaos to elect Obama, as this housing money flooded the world.

I told people by God's Grace earlier this summer that cash was king and that is what the bankers and Buffett want as the dollar is going to double in value and they want YOUR MONEY out of stocks and banks so they can get their hands on it.
They want you to buy gold and other garbage so when the dollar goes up, gold goes down by half and you are left with half your money and they earned the other half.

People PLEASE, do not divest yourself. Keep your money as it is going to go up in buying power and that is why these financiers want it. Hiding it under your bed for now is better than buying gold or paper resources. Local CD's and tax free bonds are much better in the short term for you to keep your money.

Obama's money mentor Paul Volcker last night on Charlie Rose was speaking of rewriting the laws. Yeah the Italians are now too. The market is tanking to gain money, to elect Obama and to implement a bigger consolidation.
That is all the banks in the world in one system. See if you have one banking system, then you can have one currency sooner than later and..........does that not sound akin to a prophecy in no one being able to buy or sell without the mark of the state?

I will point out so people do not go completely hide under the blankets that even Volcker stated this is no great depression. Buffett said it could be fixed in 6 months. The reason the Obama people are not in a panic is they engineered this thing and are not being hurt.

I will also point out that the herded masses of people which many seem to be posting on this site are one nuclear mini war away from giving it all up for a dictator like Hitler in Europe.
Imagine an exchange in the Middle East where Americans die, Jews die and the retaliation is the vaporization of Damascus and select Persian interests.
That will remove America from the region. That will terrify Europeans to unite into their empire that the cartels have been pushing for.

If you have not noticed the central Europeans have been leveraging all through the Middle East and are behind the economic attack on America currently as it is in their interests.

Big deal as the stock markets fall. They are simply correcting and when they get low enough they will be worth owning again. So don't get worked up about these things. Your local bank is solvent, your job is necessary, people will continue to purchase goods and it will all work out in your personal life.
I was amazed that Paul Volcker and Charlie Rose were using my terminology last night as I have posted on Newsbusters, policy papers and my blog in "different economies" meaning Wall Street is one economy and mainstreet is another. There actually are more economies than that, but it was interesting policy discussed here is now showing up in liberal circles.

So in understanding that the crisis is for shearing money from you, installing Obama, centralizing into a literal world order banking structure, what will come of this?

I have noted that a Middle East dust up is necessary and that his what Olmert's Rothschild backers have been pushing. These secularists hiding as "Jews" want American Jewish settlers out who are religious and their imported Russian "Jews" in.
I will note something in this for my Jewish brothers like David Horowitz who banned me from his site pointing his out. George Soros a secularist ran Jews out of Georgia over that oil pipeline.
George Soros is hammering Jews in American politics. George Soros is making deals with Hamas over Jews.

What is the prize in this?

Look at Soros history. He just stole Romanian gold as Newsbusters reported last year. There must be something in the West Bank that Soros knows is there and has cut a deal with Hamas to plunder it.

I know the Dead Sea is full of a wealth of minerals, but I believe that there is a lake of oil under the West Bank and Soros is after that to the raping of American Jewish settlers of their homes.
He is after that land. The Europeans already as Aaron Klein reported have a deal with Jordan to put an army into there. So a great deal of European finance wants Jews and Americans out of the Middle East for their plunder.

How you get it is you start a small nuclear exchange as a vaporized Damascus gets herdlings in Europe's attention to accept a new Napoleon with a peace treaty.

So America is supplanted. China is currently making grunting sounds about the end of American economic superpower status.

If you notice Russia is in Syria, has moved it's nuclear aircraft carrier destroying cruisers out of the Arctic and they are moving into eastern Europe.

You have the Persian caliph and that cesspool of moon god Isalmcommunists with nuclear weapons.

Do the math people as I have been explaining this for 2 years now. You have 4 nasty European empires who have a history of rape, slaughter, genocide and not ever playing well together all locked onto a Eurasian continent.

3 times in history in the 7 years war, World War I and World War II like conditions of leverage for the control of the world happened as are occurring today.
This is the 4th destiny. That is why I have pleaded for shortsighted people to elect John McCain as he will keep America from being pulled into this horrific war. These 4 empires are already licking their chops over America being supplanted. They have already been assassinating people to gain leverage. It will not be that short of time before they get into a weapons of mass destruction fight with each other as they all want to rule the world.

It will be Napoleon against Putin and Hu with the nuclear Muslims being nuked.

These children never play well together and several years from now the people thinking this economic crisis is a problem are going to learn like in 1929 that 1940 was where the real problem will start.
This is not going to take a decade this time to enact. I fully expect a Middle East skirmish and a bogus peace treaty coming out of Europe by which all sides will use the few years to arm themselves to literal end of the world come.

There is a 100% chance America is going to loose her entire military stores in the Middle East as Russia will move by force America out.

America is entering into the times of it will need a military leader like John McCain or at least a Sarah Palin who can shoot a full auto rifle.
I will be frank. If Joe Biden who I know is a thug was running the Democratic ticket or even an Al Gore to Hillary, they know how to pull triggers and seem to not be Brzezinski oriented so America would have a chance to not get sucked into a world war.
Obama though is so financier led that he is injecting America into areas we can not defend and when our Soldiers get killed in the tens of thousands he is going to have to use nuclear weapons and that will mean nuclear weapons will end up on here out of Eurasia.

This is a precarious time, not in finances, but TODAY America needs to implement policy which will stop the Chinese from need of resources from invading Alaska. It is certain when push comes to shove they will invade Oz for their mineral resources.
So to Democrats and people of the right who are not getting the reality of what this is all about, do you want to be fighting Chinese for our oil and fighting a southern Marxist latino invasion of looters while Obama is warming up the MERV's to get America involved in a WMD war?

I don't invest a great deal of  time on current events as they bore me as by God's Grace I addressed enough of this years ago. My purpose is to witness what is coming in the years ahead as that is the real gambit in playing for checkmate.
I know what is coming because no other outcome can result from the above scenarios being worked out as history proves it repeats in the human order. I know Barack Obama is completely naked for what is coming. He is incapable.
That is why my intensity is for John McCain and why I have become short with the nonsense some people are posting as this is coming soon in a war which will be for our very existence.

I do not want American children to be dying for the next 50 years from cancer tumors as they are in Russia. That is what will happen with cobalt and plutonium bombs if this nation gets financier led into the last world war.
It is going to be a catastrophe in dealing with the dust pile of New York in the dual nuclear concussion mountain being planned by the Islamocommunists.
America needs leadership and the only person in this race with it is John McCain for what is coming. Gov. Palin can master this as she proves she can, but Obama is incapable and Biden simply does not have the resoures available to accomplish this with nitwits the financiers will Les Aspin around him.

Barack Obama has Jimmy Carter's entire foreign and economic policy mandate surrounding him. America can not have that ineptness in the executive or we as a people are going to go back to these United States instead of the federalized the United States.

It is going to be that kind of war which is coming and some of our states are not going to survive beyond being cow pastures for decades.

Calm down though and stop reacting in being herded to things not in your best interests. God's interests will be worked out, but it will work a great deal easier with John McCain in office who people will rally around as they did with George Bush 43 after 9 11 as this nation does not need an Obama saying, and and and and and and whose only response will be a nuclear one which will give a nuclear one to America from Eurasia.

 

God bless

 

*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS

Anybody listening to the

Anybody listening to the new parody on Rush's show starring Paul Shanklin...Sarahcuda....done in McCain's voice?

....I love it!

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Pot calling the kettle black

Can I say that without being a racist? Can you believe that Jimma Carter is in Bussels downing Bush's economic policies?  What is the misery index in the Bush Administration as compared to Jimma's?

"The devil is a better theologian that any of us and is a devil still" A.W. Tozer

allow me to love

allow me to love America

jimmyc should have been a missionary, not Pres.

no balls!!!!

those 52 would still be hostages if it were not for Ronald.

go back to painting houses for Barry & Billy& ACORN

My wife had some out

My wife had some out patient surgery done this morning. Every TV in the place was tuned to CNN. I tried to get them to change the channel and they refused me. They gave me some crap about they can't change it.

Anyway, I could hardly ignore the TV because they were everywhere. At one point they did what was supposed to be a "Modern Living" segment. So for 20 minutes all they did was replay Tina Fey playing the part of Gov. Palin, and had a panel that cracked jokes about how easy it was to crack on Sarah. CNN is just another branch of the Democrat Party!

*Obama - Communist Puppet*

 

 

Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/    

Funny! MSM Math!

--change subject-- This morning Meredith Vierra was on, 8:24am CST, and had some lady baking w/young kids. They were measuring out ingredients and Meredith says it is good for kids because they get to USE MATH cooking because you measure out ingredients. So USING numbers is now MATH! LOL! The NEW MSM achievement level! Too funny!

M-B

From Drudge ... OUCH!!!

DOW LOSES 22% IN WEEK... DEVELOPING...

 

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.

dscott.... Yep. ...or

dscott....

Yep.

...or another way to put it...around about -500 more pts. to go and were back in the business.

I see buyers are coming back in here at the moment too.

 "America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

We are on the plus

We are on the plus side...

...but about 8 million to sell on the bell...

Who knows, may be more to buy on the bell too..

I do think they want badly to end on the up side over the week-end for the rest of the world markets, with the G-7 coming up this week-end...as if these critters are going to do anything...

Been interesting today...

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh

Gas seems to be in

Gas seems to be in free-fall, that's for sure. Down 8 cents over-night here, with more to come I'm sure.

And on a Friday, yet! Hope you're right, dscott. I'm rooting for you.  ;^)

 

"... smells like.... victory."Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now

Hmmm. This may have been

Hmmm. This may have been covered already, but it smells fishy. No sanctions, or recommendations of criminal investigation. Timing leaves me suspicious as well.

"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008

Obama really is Osama! At least in one NY county, anyway.

File this under Major (Freudian?) Typo FUBAR!.

It seems hundreds of absentee ballots mailed out in Rensselaer County, New York, spelled Barack Hussein Obama's last name as O S A M A.

ROFLMAO!

(h/t: Drudge)

BTW-Ijust had to post this in here, as I desperately need to share a laugh with my NB friends.

Distraught, I am.   :-(

-Dave

If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.

McCain equals

McCain equals capitulation...my friends.

Palin deal equals trouble with the talking heads in the msm...like I warned long ago about now called "Trooper-Gate"...before most people knew who Palin was...she will hold up fine for later, but for now this is blood in the water with the msm...just like I knew it would be.

Muslims worries/wins working against the US...good old CAIR 

Stock Market worries.

We are screwed.

I don't care, I have had it...McCain cannot keep sticking me...and I don't even want to get startd with Paulson.

I have had it..for this night anyway. 

"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh