For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: are the bear market in stocks and the bull market in oil over?
The Standard & Poor's 500 Index rose 1.7 percent to 1,260.68 this week. The equity benchmark earlier this month fell more than 20 percent from its October peak, the threshold for a bear market, amid record oil prices and concerns about financial firms' liquidity. The Dow Jones Industrial Average added 3.6 percent to 11,496.57 after a three-day rally that was the biggest in five years...Crude oil, which hit a record of $147.27 a barrel July 11, plunged 11 percent for the week to $128.88 amid signs of a slowing global economy, faltering U.S. fuel demand and rising supplies.
For the record, the three-day rally in stocks was the biggest since March 2003, the beginning of this bull move after a three year bear market. Furthermore, this week's oil plunge was the largest in dollar terms in history.
Did the bear market in stocks and the bull market in oil end this week, or are these just short-term reversals in longer-term trends?
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
It is a good sign
July 19, 2008 - 11:51 ET by shawn228However, oil is still extremely expensive, and gas is over $4 a gallon. Global food prices on things like wheat, rice and cooking oil is still over the top and we have not even come close to seeing the full effects to the mortgage crisis
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
"However, oil is still
July 19, 2008 - 17:25 ET by ckc1227"However, oil is still extremely expensive, and gas is over $4 a gallon.
Global food prices on things like wheat, rice and cooking oil is still
over the top and we have not even come close to seeing the full effects
to the mortgage crisis"
It didn't get this way in one week, nor will it all get better in one week. Every journey starts with the first step. Maybe this week was the first step towards some of these things getting better.
"Did the bear market in
July 19, 2008 - 12:04 ET by Ten7s"Did the bear market in stocks and the bull market in oil end this week, or are these just short-term reversals in longer-term trends?"
As to the financial, monetary, economic situation, this is the wrong focus. Its like commenting on the weather forcast during a volcanic eruption. What difference will it make knowing whether it will rain on Tuesday while megatons of ash are falling from the sky and lava is pooring down the side of the mountain. Collapsing credit bubble, collapsing real-estate prices, mountains of bad securities/derivatives based on bad debt, commodity bubbles, massive gov't debt, ... The ship doesn't have to sink, but it will if we keep 'rearranging the deck chairs' instead of facing the crisis and repairing the problems.
NBers
July 19, 2008 - 14:09 ET by Noel SheppardT7s, Dr. L, et al:
I must say I'm surprised by some of the positions being expressed here. Equity prices are a leading economic indicator that have a huge impact on consumer confidence and therefore retail sales. If last week was indeed the bottom, this could be a sign of better economic times ahead.
We shouldn't talk about that?
As for oil and gas prices, are people happy about what they're paying at the pump? I just got my PGE bill for last month -- $650! One month.
If oil, heating oil, and natural gas don't sharply decline soon, heating bills this winter will be absolutely insane. Many will be spending $1000 or more per month.
We shouldn't talk about this?
As for problems that might still be remaining in the housing and finance industries, let's understand that a bottom here in stocks would be very helpful to both. JMHO. ns
Noel....$650 for one month from PG&E....try..
July 19, 2008 - 14:29 ET by BEGRUNT$900 a month for LADWP. And the reason for this is not only higher rates for electricity and water, but our midget mayor and the city council keep raising the "fees" to off set their reckless spending. They dont call them taxes here anymore because people get all worked up over the word "tax", so they are now "fees". i.e: trash fee, water disposal fee, fee to process the fees.....etc. It is madening out here, and its just getting worse. L.A. is hopeless, unless the electorate FINALLY get fed up and throw the mexican mafia out of office.
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Beg
July 19, 2008 - 14:36 ET by Noel SheppardBeg,
That includes your water as well? ns
Yes......Noel, it is really..
July 19, 2008 - 14:43 ET by BEGRUNTcrazy out here. We have the highest paid city council, highest paid head of DWP......guess who pays? We do. They pay for it by "fees". Were being fee'd to death. The whole city is run by "musical chair" politicians. The term out in one office, run for another, nothing changes, just titles.
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Beg
July 19, 2008 - 15:20 ET by Noel SheppardBeg,
Well, with the new rationing program here, I'm now paying $100 a month in water. So, we're close. ns
NS
July 19, 2008 - 17:32 ET by BlondeBut do you actually get to use any of that water?
In South Florida, when we have water rationing, we use less, and they double or triple the price to "compensate" for the revenue loss.
Of course, I am a water scofflaw, I paid beaucoup bucks for my orchids, and I water them daily.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I'm with you Blonde....they are..
July 19, 2008 - 17:40 ET by BEGRUNTcontemplating rationing here too. My roses are too important to me to let die for a smelt, a bottom feeding smelt. Cant divert that water, the smelt might get upset......Geeezzzzz
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Blonde
July 19, 2008 - 18:38 ET by amberWhat kind of orchids do you have? I love them so much. I bought a Cyprepedium Reginea plant from the Vermont lady slipper company and the frick fracking fargon deer ate it!
"Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else." --despair.com
Hi amber
July 19, 2008 - 19:07 ET by BlondeI live in South Florida, so I have the warm loving varieties.
Lots of phals, dendrobiums, vandas, cats (mostly species and primary specie hybrids), bulbophylums, and a couple of odd beauties, maxillaria tenufolia (smells like Hawaiian Tropic suntan lotion), psychopsis papillo, and brassavola digbyana (parent of all cattleyas with a ruffled lip...a shy bloomer, I've had mine for 15 years and it's only bloomed twice...in the last year!).
One of my favorites (I've had it forever) is c. Pliades, a primary hybrid. It's about 3' tall, a primary hybrid of C. bowrigiana (I can't find a Pliades, but it looks very much like its parent), it blooms at Thanksgiving every year. Mine's big, but not this big!
Those deer are discriminating. I bet you were furious.
I can't grow the lady slippers here, too hot. But the ex's dad had a fly-in place in Canada....we found a patch of them that was 4' around. It was incredible.
Do you have any masdavalias? Oh, how I wish I could grow those, too. Have you ever been to Hausermann's outside of Chicago? Best cats on the planet.
<edit> And that patch of lady orchids we found in Canada looked very much like your Cypripedium regiena. Beautiful orchid! Get another one.
And P.S. Do you grow paphs, too? Can't do those here either...oh how I wish!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I am very restricted to
July 19, 2008 - 19:16 ET by amberI am very restricted to what I can grow. It can get to 30 below. I want to try a bletilla (sp?).
I have never stopped in Chicago.
I love dendrobiums, they are so full of blooms. At the conservatory in MN they have an annual Orchid display and it is really good. The cats have such interesting scents. Here is their page http://www.comozooconservatory.org/cons/index.shtml they get a lof of confiscated orchids.
"Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else." --despair.com
→ And Arugula
July 19, 2008 - 19:20 ET by Cool ArrowOnly reason I now the plant exists is because Obama says the price is sky high.
I'm worried about the Arugula harvest, aren't you?
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
amber
July 19, 2008 - 19:25 ET by BlondeYou are in the Cities?
My ex was from Eden Prairie...I know the conservatory well.
Check out Hausermann on the web....their prices are great and they are experts at shipping.
Do you have a greenhouse? I can't imagine trying to grow orchids indoors. I can't grow a spider plant indoors with the a.c.
I had a slathouse built as an extension of my patio. I just go out and squirt the suckers occasionally, sometimes I fertilize.
Here's an orchid that my mom had (a dendrobium, I forget the name....ah, a chrysotoxum). She sold it!!!! It wasn't quite this big, but it was awesome!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde
July 19, 2008 - 20:45 ET by amberNot in the cities anymore, my family all lives in the cities (hugo, lino lakes, shokopee), though. I am quite a bit South of the cities.
I will check them out. I wish I had a greenhouse. We have a 24x24 garage that is not in use and we are thinking of turning it into a greenhouse, though. The summer is really humid, but I normally bring my plants outside then. In the winter, with the corn stove, it is so dry I have to mist everything a few times a day and keep a humidifier.
I want to get a vanilla orchid, but they are almost vinelike so I have to wait. I love plumerias too, I have about 6 of them all only 1-2' tall that I grew from seed. Your collections sound wonderful. My favorite things about orchids are the variety, the scents, and the length of time the bloom lasts. I would rather have someone buy me a nice orchid than a dozen cut roses.
"Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else." --despair.com
Gov't economics
July 19, 2008 - 18:58 ET by nkviking75That's government for you. They think increasing rates will bring in more revenue. Is it illegal for anyone who knows anything about economics to serve in government?
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
Wow! I am so glad I live in
July 19, 2008 - 18:35 ET by amberWow! I am so glad I live in rural America. Free water, free sewer (private well and septic). I burn with corn, last year my heating costs were $300 and I live in MN.
My point is...
July 19, 2008 - 16:10 ET by Dr_Libertythat you cannot take a look at two days in the market and project a trend (e.g., the bubble burst). By all means talk about the economy, but do not make projections based on a few data points -- that is Methodology 101.
Speculating that the "oil bubble burst" based upon a 12 point drop in two days is like saying New York is going to be submerged because an iceberg broke off in the Antarctic.
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Dr. L
July 19, 2008 - 17:16 ET by Noel SheppardDr. L,
Don't agree with you. We know the oil bubble will eventually burst. As such, I think it's a blast to speculate on when.
If you look at this chart and this one, you'll see this was a huge technical breakdown this week on massive volume. Could be the beginning of a major unwind. Then again, it might not. But it's fun to discuss because it IS going to occur. Just a matter of when.
Furthermore, take a look at the S&P Financial Index. See the MASSIVE volume this week as we made a new bottom followed by almost a 25% explosion to the upside. This could be the washout we've all been looking for since the financial crisis began about 13 months ago.
As a former arbitrageur, and someone that's been involved in this stuff for almost exactly 28 years now -- I started on the PSE floor on July 15, 1980! -- I LOVE this stuff. :-) ns
Charts
July 19, 2008 - 18:22 ET by nofateNS: I would not want to be long oil at the moment. If it breaks below about 122 that should confirm the breakdown. I don't do commodities, I stick to stocks. The only thing I was able to make any money on in this market was the oils. They all stopped out about two weeks ago, and now I'm waiting for something to go long on.
You think the juice is all wrung out of the financial crisis? There is an awful lot of uncertainty here, what with tax and spend Obama and open borders McCain vying for the top job. I agree that the oil bubble has probably (still hedging) burst, but I'm not sure the bears have wrung out the stock market yet. I'm looking for a bear trap, ala '73-'74 (not hedging). I'd rather see a few days of advances mashing declines and new hi's outpacing new low's by a wide margin in order to feel like it's a long term trend and that's not happening yet.
I also agree- a little speculation is a lot of fun.
"The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."
michaelyon-online.com
"...Equity prices are a
July 19, 2008 - 16:55 ET by Ten7s"...Equity prices are a leading economic indicator..."
Maybe under normal conditions, which we're not, equities are bubbly like everything else.
"As for oil and gas prices..."
Noel I've learned a lot from you about oil and gas. What do you think for solving the short-term problems? Long-term I'm of the opinion that we need to produce more domestically, oil, natural gas, nuclear, etc. It would have helped a lot if the Bush Administration's Energy Policy was put in motion in '02-'03 or even after or even now...
T7
July 19, 2008 - 17:21 ET by Noel SheppardT7,
Bubbles still are indicators, and still impact consumer confidence. And, if the bear market concluded last week -- although the jury's still out! -- we will begin to see consumer confidence increase, which will lead to stronger retail sales. It always does.
As for oil, here's a couple of articles I wrote for NRO that will give you an idea of my views on this: http://planetgore.na... and http://planetgore.na...
ns
Yes, I always want the
July 19, 2008 - 18:15 ET by Ten7sYes, I always want the markets to do well. I just see larger factors overshadowing weekly changes in the market at this particular time. If oil went under $100/barrel and stayed (ceteris paribus), that might help at least through end of year.
Thanks for the links. I'll give them a read.
I hate this punditry
July 19, 2008 - 12:31 ET by Dr_LibertyI hate the punditry that tries to predict long term (or even short or medium term) trends from just a few data points. NB had a similar open thread about the oil bubble bursting a few weeks ago and then oil shot up $10. Not to fault NB, but this tends to be a typical practice among the punditocracy. Phil Gramm says "blah" and everybody is trying to predict how this will play out in November.
<insert witty signature here>
agree Dr Liberty
July 19, 2008 - 12:41 ET by candanceThere seems to be this trend among conservie pundits to report on the economy with a "move along, nothing to see" kind of attitude. Every few weeks someone is saying "the fallout is over now" and after a while it starts to sound like the boy who cried wolf.
Not just "conservie"
July 19, 2008 - 12:53 ET by Dr_LibertyIt is quite evident in the liberal MSM as well. One bank fails and we are now headed to the Great Depression. One fat family can't buy meat and we will soon be standing in soup lines. A polar bear slips off an iceberg and soon we will need to equip them with life jackets.
Indeed, the global warming news trope is highly susceptible to looking at a single event and projecting a major trend.
This is a general problem of the punditocracy that needs something to talk about and to sound as if they are profound. The problem is that most pundits are not well-versed in any single subject. They tend to know a little bit about a lot of things. When they try to predict "deep" trends they often neglect looking at related historical trends and/or tend to miss basic fundamental reactions of human behavior.
So, Candy, if you take a look at long term economic trends, you will see that the US economy is doing reasonably well considering the immediate pressures on it. Try taking a comparative look at what happened in the 1970s with similar oil price increases, inflationary pressures and foreclosures. Also look at the 1980s when several S&Ls failed. When that is taken into account, it is remarkable to see the resiliency in today's economy. That could change, but at comparative points in both the 70s and 80s, things don't look so bad.
<insert witty signature here>
I understand what you're saying
July 19, 2008 - 13:01 ET by candanceThere doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground on these issues. The lib media paints our economy as just on the brink of collapse, and folks on the right tend to say the economy is great. For uneducated folks like me who are stuck somewhere in the middle it's hard to understand exactly what's happening.
Working together
July 19, 2008 - 13:29 ET by Ten7sI'm among the most conservative posters and have as much contempt for the MSM/Lib Media as anyone here. But we have real, serious short-term and long-term financial, monetary and economic problems. This is not a democrat/republican issue. Its systemic and started at least as far back as 1993, the beginning of the 'Tech-bubble'. There is no middle ground as to the facts, but the fall-out will affect everyone. And the solutions will only come from everyone working together. As a Nation, that's our first major hurdle, getting everyone (especially leaders both public and private) to stop blaming each other, take responsibility for what they've done, and work together to solve the problems. Will it take a major financial crisis to achieve this? That is the question.
I totally agree. It is
July 19, 2008 - 18:45 ET by amberI totally agree. It is disingenuous to say "There is no recession, everything is fine" technically there is no recession, but the price of food and fuel has shot up so fast that people are truely conserving and not just talking about it. We do not make the 30 mile drive to the bigger town to shop anymore. I have not driven the 120 miles to my mothers in 6 months. I planted a lot more food and I worked hard to get cheaper meat ($1.25 a pound pork, just butchering costs). We need to be really honest. We can't say everything is fine and then be alarmist about the fuel prices. How can we blame congress for the increases if we will not even be truthful about the issues?
"Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else." --despair.com
A Quickie Shrub Report...
July 19, 2008 - 12:35 ET by Roger the ShrubberGuitar God Brian May turns 61 today.
I guess Pat Buchanan isn't a complete douchebag all the time.
Another AP fauxtographer is in trouble... Meanwhile, jihadi dumbasses are passing out reruns...
Today's Religion of Peace Update.
And, finally, we can al last see video of the Penis Man!!
Roger, your Pat Buchanan
July 19, 2008 - 14:01 ET by motherbeltRoger, your Pat Buchanan link goes to an article about the New Yorker cover with the Obamas.
As for "penis man"....small potatoes (no pun intended).
The senior prank at a Pennsylvania high school was to carve a 60-foot penis into the turf on the football field.
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows. -Bart Simpson
Buchanan wrote that
July 19, 2008 - 20:35 ET by Roger the ShrubberBuchanan wrote that article, unless I am mistaken.
Do you know what high school that was?
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July 19, 2008 - 20:35 ET by dahliatraversThat AP fautographer story is pretty disturbing.
No, he hangs around and films the murder of two innocent women. This man has lost his humanity.
Can we say the oil bubble burst
July 19, 2008 - 12:39 ET by TjexciteCan we say the oil bubble burst or is it still to early. but, it will eventually fall.
Is it just me...
July 19, 2008 - 12:50 ET by ontheright...or has anyone else noticed that Pelosi's "no drill, no spill" article that was on Drudge for a day or two is now gone, completely?
I don't mean moved to column 3, I mean gone, removed, deleted, history...I wonder what this means? I'll give a couple of ideas just for the fun of it...
1. Pelosi, et. al. complained and "forced" Drudge (team) to remove this and used a "Fairness Doctrine" type threat.
2. Left leaning (read: liberal whackos) pressured Drudge (somehow) to remove the Marquis showing their fearless "3rd in line for command" icon as the socialist she really is; and damn the tax paying Americans who are trying hard not to break under the Congress caused, skyrocketing gas prices...or;
3. Drudge has genuinely moved much further left than he ever has been (as I've seen and heard here and there) in the past and removed the damning evidence of the elitist radical left leaning San Fran Nan out of professional courtesy....
Hard to say - open for suggestions.
Ontheright, it's still there...
July 19, 2008 - 13:58 ET by goldenthroatOTR,
I just checked the Drudge Report and the article you're referring to is there -it's been filed under the Thursday archives. There's a ton of other ones that have been posted the last few days in that same file.
Matt looks like he been pretty busy!
"How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all?" - Firesign Theatre
My apologies...
July 19, 2008 - 16:48 ET by ontheright...I didn't look through the "archives"...would have thought news of that importance wouldn't have been archived so soon.
You know, like "World Trip Could Push Rock-Star Persona to New Heights..." stayed on the front page...
Just sayin...
BEAR MARKET ?????
July 19, 2008 - 13:04 ET by billbNo one will know until it's all over! After the fact there are always a lot of accidental experts. I know one thing for sure....if you're retired, don't let anyone talk you into an INDEX fund. As soon as I recover a bit, I'll go back to managed funds.
Aren't I just the kutest thing?
July 19, 2008 - 17:22 ET by goldenthroatSo Kutie Katie Kouric's job at the Clinton Broadcasting System is secure, huh?
http://www.variety.com/VR1117989150.html
With her stellar ratings plunging further into the sub-basement, I'll bet a steak dinner that she'll be gone by January. And it will be buh-bye to another left-coast, bleeding-heart, 'do as I say, not as I do' MSM liberal!
"How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all?" - Firesign Theatre
goldenthroat
July 19, 2008 - 17:50 ET by Rush FanYour reference to the Firesign Theatre brought back memories. Peter Bergman and I served together in an Army Reserve medical unit in California back in the late seventies. We spent two weeks every year at Letterman Army Hospital in San Francisco assisting the troops coming back from Vietnam, and would go to town together while there.
I didn't know it at the time, but our politics are much different. From the look of his website, he is not a fan of George Bush.
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"They are actively promoting the decline of America." ~ Rush Limbaugh on liberals and Democrats
Rush Fan, I never knew...
July 19, 2008 - 20:43 ET by goldenthroat...that David Letterman ran an Army hospital!
"Everything you know is wrong!" - Firesign Theatre
[obama-mania] I'm not
July 19, 2008 - 14:01 ET by marvl[obama-mania] I'm not worried about the economy. I am sure that once the presidency passes onto He-em, the DOW will climb to over 20,000 within a month. The Hudson River will flow swift, swollen with Chateau Cheval Blanc St. Emilion Grand Cru 1990 instead of sewage, and every day little girls in ballet slippers will scatter rose petals over the land. Fear not, for the planet shall be hee-aled by He-em. [/obama-mania]
Cycles
July 19, 2008 - 16:56 ET by nofateI don't know if the bear cycle is over or not, but my guess is not. It seems that there may be some more fuel to add to the credit crunch fire, i.e. the Indy thing and the fact that the FDIC only has something like $2 (???) on hand for every $100 of deposits. (heard Levin talking about this- not sure if I got the figures correct or not, but it was a scary figure) Any one remember the S&L debacle? Maybe it is time for another bank tank ala 1929-34. Who knows.
What I do know is that it will turn around eventually. I remember a now famous picture on the cover of Barron's that came out in October (I think) 1974 that showed a bear knocking down the pillars of the New York Stock Exchange building. Turned out, that was almost the exact bottom of the bear market. Reagan took office in '81 amid media gloom and doom that was the equal of today, got the tax cuts through, and in '82 the market took off on the biggest bull market in history. '87 looked pretty damn severe at the time it happened, but if you look at a long term chart, it looks like a hiccup now.
I think if the Barack of Obama is elected, with all his new tax proposals, etc., it will be a long time before a true economic boom returns, but there will still be a bottom to this market somewhere in there. It is cyclical, although I agree with other posters about the severe endemic problems in our system brought on by the nanny statism of both parties. The Barack of Obama wants to spend something like several trillion dollars already (Levin again- he was running the totals which I cannot remember specifically) on new entitlements that would equal or exceed the total current national budget! We are already in a situation where the "greatest generation" and the "boomers" have created a debt generating machine that threatens to bankrupt this country in one or two generations even if we stop spending right now. What are the chances of that? I understand this, and I am nowhere near being an economist. Paraphrasing Ben Franklin (I think), "we have given you a republic, if you can keep it". It seems the politicians are doing their level best to make sure we lose it.
"The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."
michaelyon-online.com
I’m an optimist. I
July 19, 2008 - 18:02 ET by Rush FanI’m an optimist. I believe American ingenuity, perseverance and innovative technology can solve almost any problem. But this innovation, which will come from the private sector not the government, will flourish only if there is minimal government interference.
In the short term, oil prices may fall somewhat and stocks may increase. The housing market may begin improving. The current 5.5% unemployment rate may remain steady. But we all are aware that unless major changes are made soon, the prospects for America’s economic future look very, very, very dismal. As Glenn Beck states: “Here’s how I got there.”
Energy Prices: It’s supply and demand. Ben Bernanke testified at a hearing this week that it was unlikely that the manipulation of the oil futures market (as the Democrats claim) had much of an affect on oil prices.
Even if we conserve, the rest of the world will use any excess oil produced. China’s consumption of crude oil hit record highs. The Market Oracle reports: “In 2008 China, India, Russia and the Middle East for the first time will consume more crude oil than the U.S.” In 2008 sales of cars in China increased by 19.3% when compared to the same period last year. China is projected to add 33 Million automobiles during 2006-2010. Auto sales in India also were growing in 2008; moreover, India has produced a new car that cost only $2500. A cheap car equals more sales and more oil.
Social Security: From The Heritage Foundation: "Social Security spending will exceed projected tax collections in 2017, and these deficits will quickly balloon to alarming proportions.”
Medicare: From The Heritage Foundation: "The Medicare program is now projected to consume:
* 24 percent of all federal income taxes by 2019 and
* 51 percent of all federal income taxes by 2042."
I’m so depressed I think I’m going back to bed.
The only thing standing
July 19, 2008 - 21:04 ET by ThisnThatThe only thing standing between you and lower gas prices is a democrat.
** Update **
Gas taxes are going to go up. Congress refuses to cut out their earmarks -- instead, they are going to raise gas taxes by 10c/gallon. All democrats, mind you -- not Republicans. Demcrats are reacting to pressure from the construction industry and -- you guessed it -- unions.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
a Democrat?
July 19, 2008 - 21:20 ET by amberAs in one, uno, un? Disagree, I think it is a locust field full of them and not all are elected, some are armed with lawyers and lighter fluid.
"Always remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else." --despair.com
Someone called me "stupid" when I warned about this exact thing.
July 20, 2008 - 06:55 ET by sarcasmoI was right about the Heller case. These facts tend to speak for themselves, like it or not. :)
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.