For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: Jenna and Henry wed in private ceremony away from DC and paparrazi:
Unlike other first family weddings that have been broadcast live, the Bushes didn't share their daughter's nuptials with the nation... Millie Martin Bratten, editor-in-chief of BRIDES magazine, said the wedding was a letdown for some who craved a Princess Diana-style event. But she said Jenna's wedding - her classy Oscar de la Renta gown and all - might even set a trend for future presidential weddings.
What do you think of the Bushes' decision to keep this private rather than the typical, well-attended gala at the White House televised for the entire nation? Could this type of public event been exactly what the country needed at this time, and the family was wrong to keep it from us? Or was this another perfect example of what kind of person the President is, and a sign that he is fully vested in his parental responsibilities?
Do you think their decision to keep this private had anything to do with the press's contentious attitude towards the President? Might a less hostile media been more welcomed, or did that not play at all into the wedding plans?





















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Why are they complaining?
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:31 ET by mister josephWhy are they complaining? They'd have complained extensively had it been a public wedding--'how can they have such extravagence when the country's in a gas crisis,' etc. I think the media was the main reason he chose to keep it private.
Bush, once again, shows that the right thing to do is to ignore the media and do what is right.
LOL precisely why the MSM
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:52 ET by TruthMongerLOL precisely why the MSM is complaining? that would have made for a very nice Bush-bashing bitch fest...
Jenna's Wedding
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:58 ET by merlin61Truth Monger you are so right!!!! I'm thrilled
that Jenna had the class to keep this HER wedding,
not the Bush Bashing Event the MSM would have
liked. It was done just right and classy.
I don't see why it's
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:10 ET by Clear thinkerI don't see why it's anyones business whether they had a private or public ceremony. If there are people out there that are upset about them having a private wedding ceremony, really need to get a life.
"Abstain from McCain"
However Truth
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:14 ET by DEVILDOCMOMthe media is doing its best to bash the President and Jenna. I was having trouble opening some of the wedding pictures on FOX and reluctantly went to the clinton news network. As part of their discussion of the wedding they found a way to bash Jenna through her friends. The media is such trash.
these people are pro's...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:18 ET by TruthMongerthese people are pro's...
They are...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:24 ET by DEVILDOCMOMbut how do they sleep at night trashing a wonderful young woman on her wedding day, who has chosen teaching as a profession WHEN INSTEAD SHE COULD HAVE "WORKED" FOR A HEDGE FUND! Sorry, losing it again...
I thought the pictures showed just what everyone would like for a wedding in our families. Class. I guess the old media does not understand that concept.
I don't think they sleep
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:56 ET by TruthMongerI don't think they sleep very well, actually:)...
most appropriate...
I absolutely applaud their
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:32 ET by HelenSI absolutely applaud their decision to have a private family wedding. This really confirms to me that their values and lives are solid and genuine and not for public titillation or consumption. This was their day, not ours.
I wish Jenna and Henry all the best and Godspeed.
And I pray for President and Mrs. Bush that their faith and their strength will be renewed and reinforced by this weekend of love and hope and by the Grace of God.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
to the MSM - celebrity
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:55 ET by TruthMongerto the MSM - celebrity weddings are all about publicity baby! if you tried to explain that marriage is actually a Holy sacrament - what do you think they might say...
I think they did right.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:35 ET by Calypso JonesI wish the new couple well and am glad that the President and his family had a wonderful celebration. Why share this with a media that does nothing but undermine and insult this family at every opportunity. If the Bush family had done otherwise, every idiotic protest group such as Code Oink would have been there to get in their few minutes of camera time...and the American media would have gladly given it to them.
honestly, i kept waiting for
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:36 ET by mister josephhonestly, i kept waiting for news reports this to mention Cindy Sheehan, or, at least, 'protestors.'
Great Call by Jenna
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:43 ET by Great DebaterI truly believe that the President sat Jenna and her now husband down and laid out what they should expect if they went for a WH wedding. He likely explained that many of the press would have ripped into the looks of her, her bridesmaids, her father, her groom, her mother, and the entire format of the wedding. They would have done so, not because they even believed what they were writing, but because they'll know that they'll sell more magazines that way. Therefore, she decided that, no, no one is going to make a quick easy buck off trashing her wedding day. So, they went for a pretty traditional (as best she could make it), quiet, down home type wedding. I think it was a great call on her part.
Private was certainly the
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:47 ET by taterPrivate was certainly the way to go...that way the media didn't stick it nose in it and run their typical spin of the situation.
Besides throwing a wedding is pressure enough...no need for more of it by having a nation watch it.
"They need to have a course in college called common sense and everyone should take it. Problem is there isn't too many people that could pass or teach it." -my grandfather
They absolutely did the
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:47 ET by motherbeltThey absolutely did the right thing. If they'd had it at the WH, I'm sure the media would be whining..how can he do this while young men and women are fighting in Iraq, etc. Or they'd be accusing him of trying to divert attention from all our problems.
I'm sick to death of the media thinking that they are the arbiters of what is supposed to be public and what's not.
"Classy" Is Correct
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:55 ET by UpwayAll you have to do is take one look at the nasty, disrespectful comments on the Dailykos regarding the wedding, and there will be no question as to whether or not the Bush family did the right thing.
MSM
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:06 ET by iveseenitallRight. Even the mainstream media couldn't help itself. Every article I read had a negative comment or two about the "unpopular" president, or the war, or the "poor" economy. The so-called "journalists" once again showed what they are--classless, ignorant, "liberal", immature ideologues. They can't grow up, not for one day. Sad.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Definately the correct choice
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 09:58 ET by Mark_for_SenateAll the best to Jenna and Henry. Since the MSM rarely reports actual 'news', hopefully even more people will leave them out of their lives. Great choice Jenna and/or Mr. President!
To know and not do, is to not yet know
I was checking dailykos for
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:14 ET by motherbeltI was checking dailykos for a story mentioned here. I didn't find it, but I did find this:
BREAKING: McCain Loses Bearings in Speech on Constitution; Campaign Covers Up Error
It involves McCain (talking about eminent domain) saying land may not be taken for public use, instead of land may only be taken for public use. Then they have a fit because in the transcript of the speech on his website, they have the correct wording.
And she claims the video was doctored to remove the erroneous statement. That may be, which, if true, was a stupid thing to do, IMO. It just makes it look like more than a simple error.
My point is the headline. Is "losing his bearings" going to be the recurring motif of the left's campaign against McCain? And his campaign has to keep covering up his "errors"?
Those of us who said before that McCain's age was a concern take no joy
in this. But here it is, coming on strong already. The leftwing
blogger says it's a legitimate issue.
Will Barack "I've been to 57 states" Obama renounce this kind of "negative personal attack"? (and if that's not a negative personal attack, then I don't know what is!) If he doesn't on his own, will anyone call on him to do so?
Are you kidding, Obama was the one that started it...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:15 ET by AJSHOPEHe's the one that said McCain was losing his bearings because McCain told the truth about Hamas wanting Obama to be the next president.
Was that Obama himself? I
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:17 ET by motherbeltWas that Obama himself? I though it was someone on his campaign.
Well then,, so much for his "new kind of politics"
Hypocrisy, they name is Obama.
No, Rush had an audio clip of Obama saying it...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:20 ET by AJSHOPEI forget what interview it was from, but I think Rush played the audio of it on Thursday or Friday.
Oh, I believe you...I
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:32 ET by motherbeltOh, I believe you...I wasn't disputing, just asking....
that's why I said oh well, then....
I guess the "new kind of politics" only goes in one direction, and Obama is the one who gets to decide which negative attacks the American people are tired of.
MB,
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:36 ET by Indiana JoeObama's "new politics" is just like Clinton's "new politics" in the '90s. It's just the "old politics" dressed up in a shiny new package.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." - The Who
OBAMA-RAMA...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:52 ET by danybhoyNot just the Palistinian terrorist group HAMAS, but according to information gathered from a laptop from the #2 in the FARC in Columbia, who was killed in a cross border raid, they are pulling for Obama as well. Show me your friends(or those who endorse you) & I'll show you your future.
"Some of us are wise, some of us are otherwise" Mark Levin
Pomp and circumstance
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:00 ET by KC MulvilleI love big rituals. Rituals are how we "incarnate" the values and lives that we share together. Rituals restore the connection between an individual and the community. I'm a Catholic, and we love the big ceremonies. Any ordinary mass is a celebration and deepening of the community (at least, it's supposed to be). As far as I'm concerned, this country needs more public rituals. A barbecue on July 4th, and an inauguration every four or eight years, just isn't enough. I'd love to see more ritual in our national life.
But this wedding had nothing to do with the nation. Rituals are only appropriate to the community involved. This wedding was an event for two families, and whoever they wished to invite. The ritual belongs within the circle of those two families. The general public has no right to be there. If the families wanted to invite the world to see it, that was up to them, and that would have been fine. But it was their decision. They wanted it private, just between their families, and that should be respected. We have no right to hijack their private lives for our public snooping.
I ‘m not trying to turn
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:11 ET by USA4freedomI ‘m not trying to turn the thread but I just read on Drudge that Bob Barr is making a run with the Libertarian party.
Well John, remember when the logic in the Mc Cain team was: screw em, where else can they go??
They won’t vote for Billary, or Obama!! They will hold their nose (as your Mom said and vote for John).
While I might not be a total Libertarian, I do like some of their ideas, I don’t want to walk away from the Republican party but, for the last 15 or 20 years they have walked away from me. I will take a hard look at him. I know, its pitching my vote away, but when the party you have supported for years with money and sweat, hands you &*^$%#@ sandwiches don’t be surprised when I want to look at the menu for another entrée.
I guess you can call me a Maverick now.
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, and the Republican party.
Romney / Jendil 2012 (if,we survive)
The elitists in the GOP
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:32 ET by mattmThe elitists in the GOP never liked the conservative/libertarian base of the Party. It may be time to send them a message from the real republicans.
It's an "open thread,"
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:42 ET by Indiana JoeIt's an "open thread," USA4. Turn it any which way you want.
I heard that about Barr yesterday, and have mixed feelings about it. While I agree with you that the Republican offering this time is almost unacceptable, I'm afraid this will lock up the WH for the Dems. You KNOW Barr won't be siphoning many lefties.
The funniest statement came from Newt Gingrich
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:48 ET by sarcasmo"Bob Barr will make it marginally easier for Barack Obama to become president. That outcome threatens every libertarian value Barr professes to champion."
As if a vote for McCain is somehow anything even remotely approaching "libertarian."
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Well, I would think McCain
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:23 ET by Indiana JoeWell, I would think McCain is closer to any libertarian views than BO or HRC. Would you really rather see one of them win over McCain.
Believe me, I get it about third parties and all. But this may be a bad time to schism.
For me all 3 are the same.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:38 ET by sarcasmoIt's a good time to have a "tough love" lesson regarding respect. It's a 2 way street, but that might come as news to some.
The only potential advantage I see to electing the statist over the 2 socialists is that he'd probably be faced with a Democrat congress. Bush has shown that Republican Presidents can not be trusted with a Republican congress, especially when it comes to spending. Considering McCain's history I suspect he's the same way, despite the full court press selling job we're seeing on the fiscal responsibility issue. Hell, look at what came very close to killing McCain's own campaign -- too much spending. If either Barr or Dr. Mary Ruwart is on the LP ticket, it's going to be damn-deservedly-tough for any "major" party candidate to earn my vote.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Sarc, you seem like a
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:10 ET by Indiana JoeSarc, you seem like a "one-issue" libertarian. I mean, the root word of the label is "liberty," right? I agree that spending is important, and I'll concede that McCain probably won't be much better on it than BO or HRC. But at least he'd have a hostile Congress. That should slow him down more than it would a Dem president.
Also, I think that when it comes to other liberties, McCain would be much better than the other two. I can picture either of them negating some of our freedoms (with a compliant Congress) a lot more easily than I can picture McCain doing so.
I mean, which party seems to want to run more of your life for you?
I wish Barr had gotten in the race earlier, tried for the Repub nomination. He probably could have gotten it. At this point, I'm afraid he's just a spoiler.
Well, the issue for me is spending.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:33 ET by sarcasmoI'm tired of the games, and I doubt he'd have a hostile enough congress to make much of a difference to the eventual victims, which will be future generations. I believe the Republican party is too full of statists to choose a Bob Barr (especially after the LP's "tough love" caused him to lose his old job & then change his mind on the drugwar issue). Politicians...Gotta smack 'em around good & hard every once in a while to get the best libertarian results! ;) If Bob hadn't lost that election, he'd have never changed his mind.
One good thing about this election primary is that I re-learned the lesson that no vote is "wasted." I'm prouder of my 1988 vote for Dr. Paul than ever. The fact that I'm in a small minority and my candidates don't usually win doesn't really matter that much to me. The Republican party would have probably rejected my first choice, Prof. Williams, too. And we all know Walter Williams has a 0.00% chance of being McCain's VP, don't we?
Finally, and sadly, I think both parties score about the same in the "running my life" sweepstakes. Since the media is guaranteed to be biased and not allow any LP (or Green, or Constitution...) candidates into any "debate," I'm tempted to make my vote an extended middle finger towards that policy this time. If by some miracle an actual debate is allowed to happen, I might reconsider; but in that unlikely case, I might not need to reconsider.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
USA -- you old maverick
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:50 ET by Jack BauerUSA -- you old maverick you.. vote liberatarian if you want.
But Libertarians are not conservatives. Any more than anarchists are conservatives. Sure, conservatives share some characteristics with libertarians .. but there's a big gap, IMHO.
I ask myself, was President Reagan a libertarian. And I have to answer, no frackin' way.
And _I_ have to answer
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:53 ET by sarcasmoIt depends. Are you talkin' rhetoric around election time regarding spending, or are you talking actual smaller government results?? There is a vast difference, just as there was with FDR...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
You are so right Jack! I
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:34 ET by Gary P JacksonYou are so right Jack! I read the "Constitutional" Party's manifesto and was equally unimpressed. If America wanted nuts like them, they would have voted for Ron Paul! At least Ron Paul is right on at least ONE thing. (Though I don't remember which!) A vote for anyone but McCain, is a vote for the democrat candidate. Please remember Ross Perot!
We need to take a different tact to send a message.
I am working on a serious draft that I will be sending to my Congressman and Senators. Once finished, if anybody wants a copy, PM me, and I will forward it.
The long and short of it is: The letter will strongly suggest these folks to gather up the Republicans in Congress, and first, sit John McCain down and have "the talk" Get him off this global warming crap, and get some oil flowing. Then take him to task on everything else near and dear to conservatives, and explain to McCain that he can't win without conservatives.
I'm also suggesting, strongly, that the Republican members of Congress have a daily press conference, en masse, on the Capitol steps until things like drilling for our own oil, and ending the insanity on ethanol is accomplished.
Our members in Congress have a chance to get serious, and show the American people that THEY are the ones who can get something done! They also have a chance to show to the Nation that it's the dems who have screwed the pooch! They can illustrate this on the meteoric rise of gasoline and diesel prices since the dems took control.
But this will take everyone's effort. Sending a form letter won't get much done, but a call to arms, in one's own impassioned hand, will get someone's attention! It will also take every one getting their friends and family to join in, and their friends and family to do the same.
In my draft, I am asking my Congressman to get with our two Senators and be proactive. John Carter is a solid conservative, who gets it.
This is how we will get things done. "Sending the RNC a message" by voting for some third party kook isn't. Folks here should certainly know better. The Republicans were "sent a message" in 2006 when the dems took over!!!
You guys see what that got us, right?
Have to agree with everyone here, so far -
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 10:12 ET by FastEdDidn't we hear for the msm(Lsm), during those dreadful bc years, that everything he did was private? How come the same privacy isn't given to the Bush family (he asks with a smirk)?? The hacks in the media have been so smarmy, that the family, who were never questioned during the peanut farmers', nor the slimy bjc years, did the right thing and excluded THEIR day from the incompetents who call themselves "reporters".
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
Pssst...they're part of the elite society.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:06 ET by SyriusFYI- The Bushies are from the well-heeled, blue blood parts of elite society. It would look bad to their followers and true believers if they showed their true side.
Dubya feels your pain as he's sippin' Champagne!
He has nothing to worry about for the rest of his life...he will live within his own taxpayer supported bubble and never be exposed to any parts of lower class society that supported him. This is the perfect example of the type of person Dubya really is an elitist class wolf cloaked in a working class sheepskin. Show me some Carhartt, Dubya!
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
I'm sure he'll still clear
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:12 ET by JasonCI'm sure he'll still clear some brush now and then.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
careful there - bitter
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:59 ET by TruthMongercareful there - bitter jealousy is the sincerest form of admiration
Syrius & JC
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:53 ET by MrShyOne big yaaaaaaawwwn to the both of you :p
Liberals. The ultimate hypocrites. They're righteous denounciation of these perceived Republican "elite societies" and their "living in bubbles".
Meanwhile, in their own backyard reside the worst, ugliest and most charlatan forms of elitism and bubble lifestyles, in their politicians, media people and everyday citizens.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
"...Dubya feels your pain as he's sippin' Champagne!..."
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:31 ET by CTKnowing that he doesn't have to care what wingnuts like you think about it probably enhances the beverage of his choice. It definitely makes me feel better.
He has nothing to worry
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:37 ET by BDHe has nothing to worry about for the rest of his life?
Are you kidding? He has to worry about his place in society and in history. After all, consider those two stalwarts of the leftist side, Carter and Clinton and their failed places in history.
Carter is now considered a joke and most people in society wonder how it was possible for people to vote for him. What with his endorsements of various thugish regimes and their voting records, and then coincindentally working against other democratice regimes. He should have stuck to roofing houses in the thrid world.
Clinton is just on a complete downhill slide that will eventually end him in a place near Carter on the "Worst President in History" chart.
Yep, Bush will have to worry about what route those two predecessors have mapped out...
The problem with your
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:19 ET by mattmThe problem with your characterization is that Bush never made that phony "Ah feeyl yer payn" statement.
"He has nothing to worry about for the rest of his life...he will live within his own taxpayer supported bubble and never be exposed to any parts of lower class society that supported him." - That a description of Clinton, not Bush!
Bush is from a wealthy family, so what? Does that make him evil? I guess it does in the small minded world you live in. You're so full of hate that you can't even see the truth right before your eyes!
He lives on a ranch (a pretty "green" one for that matter), not in some elitist mansion in Martha's Vineyard.
Pull your head out!
Just a Rancher in Texas?
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:47 ET by Syriusmattm,
Why did the clan move to Texas?
Why does Dubya show such public disdain for the elite circles while privately enjoying being part of the elite society of the "have mores"? I would like to classify him as a hypocrite except I'm giving him credit for cloaking himself in Carhartt and displaying himself as a normal guy most people would enjoy having a beer with...the only problem is Dubya's a recovering alcoholic who went to Yale and his family is from the bona fide elite Connecticut society. No problem here...history speaks volumes!
Why does he like fishing in Kennebunkport instead of a fishin' hole in Crawford? Kennebunkport might not be his place...just the family compound? Don't the Kennedys have a family compound? Gosh, it sure does look like those northeastern elites share the same thoughts when it comes to family compounds...
For you, the truth will set you in a tizzy...
Who's head is where?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
I don't have a problem with
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:07 ET by mattmI don't have a problem with people being rich. If you think he's just acting like a regular guy to fool the low class idiots who vote for him, that's just part of your own hate and bigotry.
The proof of this is that when a real phony like Bill Clinton comes along and actually lives out the hypocrisy and elitism you claim to despise, you fall all over yourself to line up right behind Monica, for your turn.
Again I say - pull your head out.
Overlooking your uncivil manner...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:55 ET by Syriusmattm,
Why did the Bushes move from Connecticut to Texas?
Dubya cannot deny his Yankee blue blood pedigree. I'm amazed at how many have been duped into believing he isn't a Yankee blue blood!
I do like the way you stated...If you think he's just acting like a regular guy to fool the low class
idiots who vote for him, that's just part of your own hate and bigotry.
I've never thought of Dubya as a regular guy. I see him as many things; a vengeful politician with a penchant for destroying all those who oppose him; a hard drinking, drug abusing frat boy with an inferiority complex towards his father; a CINO; the epitome of the peter principle...the list continues. I don't hate him, I just want him to live a long life while watching our country heal itself from the wounds he has inflicted upon it. History is being written with each passing day...
As for the Clintons, it's always reported by conservatives that the Clintons came from white trash and will always be white trash. Why do the conservatives always try to appeal and sway the white trash vote in most elections? Those dang trailer parks and warped values! They're liable to vote for...Obama?
Lining up behind Monica for my turn?!? My turn to do WHAT???
Keepin' it civil, huh?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Sy links to a conservative site NOW
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:09 ET by upcountrywaterAs for the Clintons, it's always reported by conservatives that the Clintons came from white trash and will always be white trash. Why do the conservatives always try to appeal and sway the white trash vote in most elections?
links ??????
BTW
In 2 years your buddies in the DEMOCRAT partie.. drove up oil prices from 60 bucks to 126... thats the fastest rise in prices EVER! YOUR BUDDIES..with a LOWER rating than PRESIDENT BUSH.
The POPE says, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
You are blinded by hate.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:15 ET by mattmYou are blinded by hate. You beleive the exact opposite of what is true.
It's not the conservatives who called the Clintons trailer trash, it is Liberals who used that terminology to vilify conservatives and anyone else who dares challenge them, like Paula Jones. They are the ones who use insult, smear and ridicule against anyone who disagrees with them, as your posts so clearly demonstrate.
And you have the gall to bring up civility? What a joke!
syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:52 ET by MrShy"I've never thought of Dubya as a regular guy. I see him as many things; a vengeful politician with a penchant for destroying all those who oppose him; a hard drinking, drug abusing frat boy with an inferiority complex towards his father; a CINO; the epitome of the peter principle...the list continues. I don't hate him, I just want him to live a long life while watching our country heal itself from the wounds he has inflicted upon it. History is being written with each passing day..."
.
Syrius, you are so full of it. You and everyone on the left has swallowed whole all this fabricated nonsense of what Bush is as a person.
Man, it's so true. The hatred runs intensely deep with you people strictly because of his party affiliation. If/when Shrill or ObamaEmptySuit wins the Oval Office, I'll make an effort to be behind the things they try to do as POTUS.
Meanwhile, if McCain -- about the most liberal "conservative" out there -- wins, it'll be another four or eight years of tar-and-feathering from the relentlessly full-of-hate, thoroughly INtolerant left.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:46 ET by well99"Dubya feels your pain as he's sippin' Champagne!"
You have proof of that right.Or are you just lying?
"He has nothing to worry about for the rest of his life...he will live within his own taxpayer supported bubble and never be exposed to any parts of lower class society that supported him. This is the perfect example of the type of person Dubya really is an elitist class wolf cloaked in a working class sheepskin. Show me some Carhartt, Dubya!"
With the exception of taxpayers bubble in most cases.It is like these folks isnt it.
http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/71/The_American_Lefts_Silly_Victim_Complex.html
Oh by the way can you remind of which president didnt recieve retirement benefits.Will he have a new home bought for him and will the furniture be trucked out of the White House?
"alcohol began to compete
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:58 ET by Syrius"alcohol began to compete with my energies ... I'd lose focus".-Dubya
Looking at how he's done so far with the "wonderful" years of his administration, he should've gone into rehab a long, long time ago.
Syrius
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:05 ET by well99He quit drinking in 1986.Can you post a link where he was found to be drinking again?
YEA SYRIUS...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:59 ET by danybhoyI'll just say that thinking with the wrong head, screwing the help, & figuring out how to cover it up(LIE) also do the same thing. The wrong politician was pimping viagra.
"Some of us are wise, some of us are otherwise" Mark Levin
ROTFLMAO
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:52 ET by Indiana JoeHe has nothing to worry about for the rest of his life...he will live within his own taxpayer supported bubble and never be exposed to any parts of lower class society that supported him. This is the perfect example of the type of person Clinton really is an elitist class wolf cloaked in a working class sheepskin. Show me some Carhartt, Billy!
Syrius... "Dubya feels
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:05 ET by Clear thinkerSyrius...
"Dubya feels your pain as he's sippin' Champagne!"
Every wedding I have ever attended, and I have attended alot of them, Champagne has been served. I even attended a wedding one time that was held in the front yard of someone's home right in front of their single wide trailer. They had the beer kegs all on ice, but we toasted the couple with Champagne.
Seems to me that Dubya and family were just doing what the average American family does at a wedding. This goes directly against your claim of elitism.
"Abstain from McCain"
Dubya feels your pain as
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:27 ET by motherbeltDubya feels your pain as he's sippin' Champagne!
I know. How DARE he let his daughter get married when people have lost their homes, gas is going up, etc! All the Bushes should just wear sackcloth and ashes, right guys?
They should have eloped in
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:33 ET by Clear thinkerThey should have eloped in a Prius.
"Abstain from McCain"
right Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:36 ET by candanceMeanwhile the Clintons live in a mansion and are worth millions, the Obamas have millions, John Edwards lives in the biggest mansion for miles, and Al Gore flies a private jet as he asks me to dry my clothes on an outside line in the magical back yard I don't have.
If people earn their own money they have the right to sip all the wine they care to. I don't believe in envy and I don't go around coveting my neighbor's things...but that's one the main differences between conservies and libs. It burns a liberal up to see someone have the nerve to enjoy their own money.
Why we need education
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:13 ET by KC MulvilleStanley Crouch has an article today. In it, he scorns the idea that Obama is just an elitist. Instead, Crouch argues, Obama's education represents the highest form of non-elitism, since education is the key to social mobility. Indeed, Obama's detractors are evil, because they resent Obama's success:
Crouch isn't finished insulting anyone who doesn't adore Obama:
In his glorious summation, Crouch writes:
Here's the problem ... Edison never attended college, and Gates dropped out. I believe the Wright Brothers never attended, either. Now it is true that all three were documented in their respect for learning, and Gates is certainly dedicated to the improvement in education (which implies that it needs improving). But the idea that an elite education is required for technological and scientific innovation is disproved by the very people Crouch cites.
No one distrusts Obama because he's educated. They distrust Obama because he comes from an elitist academic encironment that peddles self-supposed superiority along with the learning.
I never got the whole
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:34 ET by balboaI never got the whole "elite" thing with Obama. It seems to be a label that people have tried to slap on him to make him a less attractive candidate.
Just listen to his comments
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:38 ET by BDJust listen to his comments in San Francisco a couple of months ago. It does not GET much more liberal elite than that.
Seems like O-backers want
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:00 ET by mattmSeems like O-backers want it both ways: either he's not representative of real Black America because he's a "magic negro," or he's a true Bro frum da hood who, in order to overcome the rampant bigotry in AmeriKKKa, needs a bible-thumping, gun owning white guy to balance the ticket.
The contrast
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:08 ET by KC MulvilleObama, personally, comes across as a regular guy. But that's charm, and it's no indication of how he intends to govern.
Obama himself seems down to earth. But we can't afford to judge a book by that cover. Jimmy Carter, at one time, seemed down to earth as well, but he turned out to be the smuggest of condescending lecturers.
KC, Really? You think Obama
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:24 ET by Chris NormanKC,
Really? You think Obama comes off as a regular guy? I find him kind of oily and creepy - when he's walking among all his "people props", microphone in hand, spouting off his "poetic phrases" nonsense.
Whatever happened to all
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:30 ET by Clear thinkerWhatever happened to all those children that followed the Pied Piper?
Obama is the modern day Pied Piper and people should be very worried. Hide your kids!
"Abstain from McCain"
Perceptions
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:48 ET by KC MulvilleYou may be right. It's all mere perceptions, of course, and politicians spend a lot of money to hire people who can fake and stage these things.
Frankly, the one episode that comes to mind is when Obama was sitting at the diner, and he turned in frustration to the reporter and begged for a few minutes to let him eat his waffles. I'm sure his "handlers" would have preferred him to smile and deflect the question, but Obama's reaction struck me as perfectly normal. Hell, I'd be a little ticked off myself. Then again, candidates don't go into diners for "privacy," do they?
One note - for all his supposed masterful oratory, Obama is a horrendous interviewee one on one. His interview delivery is like the first time you tried to drive a stick shift. It's ... screech/start/stop ... pause ... screech/start/stop ... pause, etc. He speaks in bursts, spaced by endless pauses. I can't imagine him trying to give orders to the generals in the Situation Room. It'll drive them nuts.
"...begged for a few
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:19 ET by Chris Norman"...begged for a few minutes to let him eat his waffles."
I have no sympathy for him or any politician trying to eat breakfast undisturbed. They're the ones who are usually barging into diners and interrupting people trying to eat their breakfasts in peace and who get turned into a political photo op.
Bal
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:25 ET by well99Is it like how some of his supporters try to paint him as coming from the streets?Gee private school at 10 in Hawaii.His Grandmother was a VP of a bank.That I imagine was latter in life.Still they werent living in poverty.
"Is it like how some of his
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:34 ET by Chris Norman"Is it like how some of his supporters try to paint him as coming from the streets?"
Well, if they're trying to make that portrayal, that's racist in itself - assuming that just because someone is black, he automatically "came off the streets".
Chris
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:39 ET by well99I know that but remember when he wasnt "black enough".I think that was in the early part of the campaign.The bottom line is he lived most his life in what most folks would consider comfortable lifestyle.
Edit:You know what I got caught up in a pc moment.Coming from the streets is actually a old saying which had nothing to do with your color.Nowadays maybe some folks believe it is a code word for meaning blacks.That is on them.My cousins were Southies living in the projects.If your from MA you know what I mean.I live in places with gangs and they werent yuppie puppy wantabes.It has gotten to the point you dont want to post without checking the pc list.
Oh, I know you weren't
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:22 ET by Chris NormanOh, I know you weren't engaging in stereotyping - you were describing what some of his supporters are doing. I'm hardly PC. I know "the streets" can apply to anyone's background. However, in this case, I think we know what it means.
Chris
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:54 ET by well99I understood you Chris and didnt think you were implying that about me..I was ticked at myself.Yes some folks will equate being from the streets as being black and that is bull.Funny thing is anyone I met in the Army that was from the projects in Boston were Southies.Got to put the Irish somewhere I guess.I have Irish ancestry so if someone feels the need to call Ted dont.Besides he is probably drunk.
"Southies" - oh, you mean
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:58 ET by Chris Norman"Southies" - oh, you mean the folks that are one of the few targets (other than rural southerners) left for movies and the media to villify and stereotype?
Yup lol
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:12 ET by well99South Boston....I dont know how it is now but it did use to be rough.I was lucky and moved to Northwest in my teens.I am originally from Chelsea and use to catch the devil from a guy from a town in MA at work.He always asked why I wasnt in prison.I told him I was on furlough.
So now, anyone who doesn't
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:01 ET by Indiana JoeSo now, anyone who doesn't vote for Obama is racist AND anti-education? But not voting for Hillary merely makes one sexist?
So, in "-isms," Obama's ahead, 2 to 1. Guess voting for him makes one less of a bigot.
KC, I agree with most of
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:20 ET by SyriusKC,
I agree with most of your statements. As for the last part...
"They distrust Obama because he comes from an elitist academic
encironment that peddles self-supposed superiority along with the
learning."
As for US presidents and their educational background-
5 from Yale
4 from Harvard.
Those are the facts. Yale couldn't be considered elite, right? Secretive society...Skull & Bones...Hmmm, you gotta think he feels more superior- Obama or Dubya?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
The "elitist" tag doesn't
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:49 ET by Indiana JoeThe "elitist" tag doesn't come just from education. The article KC linked to seems to think that's all there is to it. Maybe it's also his condescending manner, his enormous family income, a palatial home, etc.
Perception is everything in politics, and Obama is peceived to be elitist. You can argue that he shouldn't be all you want. People tend to go with their gut, and if they don't feel they can trust someone, they won't vote for them.
"Elitism" is also an
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:57 ET by motherbelt"Elitism" is also an attitude. Which Sen. Obama and the Missus have, in abundance.
When you listen to his wife talk about being in debt etc (We'd be poor if we didn't have all this money!) it's apparent that there is no rich snob like the "nouveau riche"....someone who wasn't always that way, but just always knew that they were better than that. And when they get theirs, they have the attitude that they deserve it; it's their right.
Correct, I couldn't agree more.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:06 ET by SyriusIJ,
I look back at the similarities between Dubya & Kerry and shake my head. Rove was able to deftly label Kerry an elitist and forgo any elitist tags towards Dubya. For many reasons, liberal and elitism are tied together in the same vein as conservative and working class exist together today. It wasn't too long ago where each meant something different entirely...
Perception is Reality.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:41 ET by Indiana Joe"It wasn't too long ago where each meant something different entirely... "
Correct, and I agree 100% with that. In modern usage, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have basically switched sides from what they used to represent, in this country at least.
Look at the modern positions of liberals and conservatives, and you'll find that the old definitions of "for change" and "for the status quo" are often inverted. In many cases, "liberals" want to maintain the status quo (welfare, abortion, regulation) if not expand upon it (health care). It's the "conservatives" who want change.
And the Democrat party keeps serving up these distant, unapproachable millionaires. Kerry married big-time corporate money (twice!), Edwards is a rich trial lawyer, Gore was too wooden and phony-feeling. Clinton may have started poor, but he's done really well for himself and has attained that aloof elitism. And Obama is cut from the same cloth, IMO. Not just MO, either, many seem to feel that way.
In these times, the old idea of the Republicans representing the well-heeled vs. the Democrats representing the working class is decidedly outmoded. It's very nearly been stood on it's head, much as some would hate to admit it.
<edit> btw, how was the Dem party able to label Dubya "stupid" when his GPA was higher than Kerry's? Perception, perception, perception! ;^)
Good point...GPA and SAT scores.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:41 ET by SyriusIJ,
I must agree with the labels and perception. I've always thought Bush to be intelligent and somewhat devious. I think the odd, garbled, garbage of language he uses from time to time helped in getting him labeled stupid. There are videos of him when he was the Governor of Texas in which his speech was precise and clear without any hint of the garbled crap of today. I wonder if it's all an act sometimes, of course, I'd be using my bias again.
I've often wondered about the switch of liberal and conservative views through the past few decades. Personally, I know of a number of upper-class baby boomer conservatives who were products of working class families that voted predominately democratic. Once the baby boomers started making $$$, they switched to a more conservative approach- counter to what their parents believed in the past. I know some of the ones on this list are going to say the kids were smarter than their parents...Edjamucation will do it every time!
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 18:04 ET by Indiana Joe"Once the baby boomers started making $$$, they switched to a more conservative approach- ..."
Well, speaking for myself, I deserted the Dem party while I was unemployed. And I feel great empathy with Reagan's remark about the party deserting him. They're not your father's Democrats. Maybe that accounts for so many boomers switching allegiance.
Consider: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Doesn't really sound like the modern Democrat meme, does it?
The difference, nutball, is
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:40 ET by Gary P JacksonThe difference, nutball, is that Bush is a man, Kerry is not.
Nothing else need be said!
Definition of a real man...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:57 ET by SyriusGary,
...is one who allows other men to do the fighting for him and his country while enjoying a few drinks in Alabama?
I guess Kerry was too dumb and got stuck into going to Vietnam??? The problem was he felt obligated to go and fight along side the other men who were going and possibly dying for the cause. He did the patriotic thing and went to Vietnam to fight. He didn't use a deferment, or connections in the National Guard to stay away from Vietnam. The one thing you cannot dispute Kerry was a boot on the ground and Bush was not. Dubya's head was in the clouds trying to figure out how to operate an obsolete aircraft. If he really wanted to be an asset to his country, he should have tried flying the F4. Oh, that would have meant him going to Vietnam. Better to stick it out in an F102...
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Oh dude, you gonna get
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:05 ET by JasonCOh dude, you gonna get flaaaamed.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
JC... He isn't worth the
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:24 ET by bigtimerJC...
He isn't worth the flame.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
BT... Which, when you
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:34 ET by JasonCBT...
Which, when you think about it, is the ultimate flame...
Just let that sink in ;)
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
JC... I did...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:42 ET by bigtimerJC...
I did... ;-)
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
BT
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:52 ET by well99It is like the Howard Dean emails I get.They are good for a laugh but they arent worth the effort of putting them in a junk mail.
w99... ....LMAO! "Never
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:54 ET by bigtimerw99...
....LMAO!
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
I thought I'd use a little bit of dumb...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:56 ET by SyriusJason,
...troops gettin' stuck on the frontline bit just to emphasis the intelligence factor of Kerry. Ironic juxtaposition only we had a draft back then and a choice today. Kerry chose to go in light of the draft. That's patriotic and more in line of being a real man.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Yea and Kerry
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 17:08 ET by Delsaserved a full 4 MONTHS.
What a man. He wanted to serve with his guys?
Who are you kidding?
Syrius, I wasn't
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 17:22 ET by JasonCSyrius, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just predicting the reaction.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I know...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 18:26 ET by SyriusJasonC,
So far, not much except for Delsa who probably thinks and believes films of Kerry in Vietnam were staged in a studio somewhere...
Hey, Delsa, we did land men on the moon and Kerry did go to Vietnam.
Bush dreams of what it would be like to be a Vietnam vet and how Martian clouds were created...if he could only find that studio...
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 18:52 ET by well99delete waste of time.Say Hi to your pet rock.
well99
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:03 ET by DelsaSyrius, IS the pet rock!
Delsa
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:05 ET by well99I am trying to find a reason to disagree with you.Let me get back to you in a couple months.
syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:00 ET by DelsaOK, Kerry went to war for 4 months. Oh boy.
My father was a POW. No one dreams of being a war vet. Your ignorance of tmilitary men and how they dream is stupendous.
In addition, if I thought I could reach your center of thought, I'd give it a try.
I just find it difficult to see, where the sun don't shine.
Delsa
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:03 ET by well99"In addition, if I thought I could reach your center of thought, I'd give it a try.
I just find it difficult to see, where the sun don't shine."
Syrius I think is related to Prof Truth.Not worth the time and effort.
well99
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:09 ET by DelsaBoy, do I hear ya!
You make my side hurt from this uncontrollable chuckle I have going on.
BDS Alert
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 19:00 ET by OldSailor88Note to Syrius. GW is not running again. He will leave office due to term restrictions in January of 2009. Kerry did not get elected President because he wasn't worthy of the office according to the American voting populus.
Noli habere bovis, vir!
Elitists
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:13 ET by KC MulvilleWell, let's be clear. Like most conservatives, I respect some things about Bush (originalist judges, etc.) and dislike others (immigration, runaway spending, etc.) I always thought "compassionate conservatism" proved that he didn't understand conservatism. Bush may have a Texas drawl, but he's still the grandson of Prescott Bush, as well as the son of the ultimate Republican establishment figure. I never claimed Bush was a working class hero. He was just better than the other two that he ran against. And since the other two were such dedicated liberals, the semi-conservative was better than none. Sadly, I think we're facing the same choice this year.
For me, it's just one more reason why Ronald Reagan was different. The academic elite hated him, but Reagan understood conservatism. He didn't have all the baggage that the "elite" education saddled the others with. It's also why William F. Buckley was so important. Buckley was a man who received all of the education of the Yale elite, but he threw off the chains of the elite perspective - and he did it deliberately.
As Marc Antony said, "When will come another?"
KC
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:47 ET by Indiana JoeGreat post, I wish I'd written it! ;^)
As for "compassionate conservatism," I hated the phrase from the start. It just buys into the premise that your average conservative is NOT compassionate.
And we're stuck again voting for the lesser of three evils. It seems the Republican party learned nothing from Reagan, or WFB for that matter.
great post , I also... wish
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 01:16 ET by USA4freedomgreat post , I also... wish I had done it..
The RNC has no idea how P/O we are..(or maybe does not care).
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, and the Republican party.
Romney / Jendil 2012 (if,we survive)
Buckley? Not elitist?
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:56 ET by SyriusKC,
Buckley on AIDS-
"Everyone detected with AIDS should be tattooed in the upper forearm,
to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks, to prevent the
victimization of other homosexuals."
Then 20 years later-
"Someone, 20 years ago, suggested a discreet tattoo the site of which
would alert the prospective partner to the danger of proceeding as had
been planned. But the author of the idea was treated as though he had
been schooled in Buchenwald, and the idea was not widely considered,
but maybe it is up now for reconsideration."
The "conservative right" left Buckley a long time ago in favor of a newer breed such as Kristol and other neo-cons. Buckley embraced his own conservative elitism against the liberal elites in a time were conservatives and libertarians shared many views. We are now witnessing a dismemberment of the middle class and the reality of economic inequality throughout our society. Today, Conservatives embrace Big Government and Big Budgets in order to keep our precious security alive with the destruction of civil liberties. Buckley knew this was the end of his movement he had so hoped for...
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:17 ET by Indiana JoeI hear this "destruction of civil liberties" a lot from the left, but I've never heard of any examples of it. Would you care to illuminate me? I certainly don't feel I've lost any liberties, and don't know anyone who does. Just btw, I don't really lose much sleep over the "rights" of enemy combatants.
It's analogous to...
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:23 ET by SyriusIJ,
...walking into a courtroom as a defendant to a false allegation and realizing the jury thinks of you as guilty since you're in the courtroom. Correct? You believe you'll never have to confront a jury nor be falsely accused since you are a patriot of the country and will continue to uphold the Constitution of the United States. You believe the laws apply to others and not yourself?
As to the "rights" of enemy combatants-
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
When do we rename them? Do we just keep them forever locked up? Either kill them or give them a trial and a sentence for the crimes they commited...perpetual detention? We now have them blowing themselves up once released...What you believe is insane and goes against humanity? I'd much rather place them in the middle of Afghanistan and let them fight it out with our tanks and fighter aircraft. Didn't the President say, "Bring 'em on!"
Syrius
syrius
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:51 ET by DelsaYou should be thanking the United States for enableing this ass to live his life a little longer.
As far as "placing them in the middle of Afghanistan and letting them fight it out with our tanks and fight aircraft" goes..
This guy and the others like him are COWARDS and my proof is they can't fight it out so they take the easy way out and blow themselves up.
Personally, I think we should lock um up, don't feed them 3 square a day, and when their is life is done, we should FEED THE F'ers TO THE SHARKS! Or maybe we should forget the lock up and just give to the sharks right away?
I've got a ticket waiting for you, one way to Afganistan if your braver that your faithful enemy combataents?
What ya think.
I don't believe I stated
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 17:50 ET by Indiana JoeI don't believe I stated anything except I don't really care about the terrorists being held. They are enemy combatants, prisoners of war. POWs are routinely held until the end of hostilities. They are not subject, nor entitled, to our judicial system or our Constitutional protections. That has been decided.
I asked for an example of us losing our rights and liberties. The left routinely makes that charge, repeating it as if it's a self-apparent fact. I'd like some examples of that, if you can provide them. I doubt you can.
Your quote from another poster here only illustrates that you have renamed these people. You seem to want to treat them as criminals are treated. So, we should just release them so they can continue their careers? How many crimes are committed by recidivists? Would you have advocated the same treatment of captured Viet Cong? Or Germans and Japanese in WWII?
That's an analogy that's a bit closer to this situation than yours.
You've been civil with me until now. Assertions that you know my mind, or that I'm "insane" or inhumane don't fall under that catagory.
Insane and inhuman were too strong.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 18:44 ET by SyriusIJ,
It wasn't my intention to be uncivil. I should have clarified, we are in a war without end and with enemy combatants detained until the endless war ceases. Which means a detainment of men until they die? If one of our soldiers or better yet "contractors" were picked up by the Taliban and kept in a prison, treated in the same fashion, wouldn't we do everything possible to free them? Not that I condone the Taliban, just for sake of argument, why wouldn't they try to free their brethren by whatever means available to them?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
I would not have an issue
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 20:14 ET by Indiana JoeI would not have an issue with the terrorists trying to free their compatriots. And not even because it would be a futile effort. Because it is exactly what our guys would do. In fact, I would almost respect the effort. I will admit that this situation is different from previous wars, and presents different problems, POW disposition being one of them.
I'm not sure where that angle comes from, however. Surely you're not saying that those who argue for the terrorists "rights" are their allies? Of course you're not.
In any event, you haven't yet provided any examples of the oft-cited claim that we are losing our liberties. Any issue about the treatment of POWs is not relevant to that question, serving only to cloud the issue.
When the "left" complains about rights & liberties...
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 11:21 ET by SyriusIJ,
...being lost, everyone in this country should take notice. For the sake of argument, if any citizen loses a right or liberty we all lose them collectively. The checks and balances have not been secured in the Patriot Act. Without oversight from the Legislative or the Judiciary branches, the Executive branch wields too much power. If we adhere to a strict reading of the Constitution, each branch is equal to the other. With its checks and balances, we can feel secure in retaining our rights and civil liberties as set forth by the founding fathers. The Patriot Act created an imbalance to our system of government. The Judiciary has begun to reveal the negligence of Legislative and the power grab of the Executive branches. As you should know the permanent gag orders on NSLs will never allow the information obtained under the Patriot Act to be revealed. The ACLU continues to document abuses, myths, and information on the Patriot Act. I hope you'll read some of the information from the link provided...
http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/facts.html#one
Many of the posters seem to discount the ACLU as some kind of leftie, anti-government watchdog trying to free criminals. The fact is the ACLU defends anyone whose rights have been violated from the religious right to breastfeeding mothers to some twisted republicans. So, before you condemn them realize they represent everyone. As to the answer of your question...Brandon Mayfield.
My quote from dscott represents an eloquent statement from him. I don't think he realized what he had said. I enjoy using it as a tagline for the simple reason of showing everyone to watch the way they attack and how they label others. If you are a creator of victims, you can never be a victim- only a target of the victim's revenge. I don't set policy on how to rename the "enemy combatants" of Gitmo into some other term to describe men being detained. The Administration has done a fine job in erasing their rights by renaming them "enemy combatants". What should we call them? Detainees? Soldiers? Islamo-fascists? Jihadists? How do we deal with them so they stop their "war"? The answers are not simple bumper sticker slogans.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius... You are one
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 11:29 ET by Clear thinkerSyrius...
You are one scary Socialist.
"Abstain from McCain"
"It's a Killer Rabbit!!!"
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 11:40 ET by SyriusCT,
"Run Away, Run Away!!!"
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius,
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 21:24 ET by Indiana JoeSo after all this, the best you can do is someone who was wrongly accused. The FBI, according to your link, realized the mistake. ACLU doesn't say, but he seems to be cleared, no? I'd wager he's not in Gitmo. So, they investigated based on probable cause, found they had the wrong man, and it's over. Do you believe everyone the authorities arrest is guilty? Don't we need a trial for that? So, doesn't it follow that many who are arrested are not, in fact, guilty? Wouldn't you argue against the idea that only the guilty are arrested? I would not classify this as abuse, or the loss of civil liberties. Read your own link for the details.
Also, you seem to feel that all victims are "created", which is a telling point to me. You say "For the sake of argument, if any citizen loses a right or liberty we all lose them collectively." You have yet to show one instance of this. All you have is ONE person, wrongly suspected and later cleared. I would think this has happened before, even before Bush "ran roughshod over our Constitution," as the left loves to claim.
Plus, this has finally become rather tedious. And pointless. You'll continue to believe this even without evidence. If you have it, you'd have provided it by now.
Thirty
Pointless...?
Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:18 ET by SyriusIJ,
The Patriot Act allows authorities to freely investigate, without warrants, citizens of the United States. You support it up until you come home one day and find a Nation Security Letter in your home? How many violations do you need besides one? ten? a thousand? a million? You want statistics in order to argue for support of the Patriot Act? The FBI became aware (by whom?) of their mistake when they realized they had no case? For now, it seems the reports of any violations and abuses are being reported mainly by the ACLU. The liberals are not the only ones questioning the Patriot Act...
http://www.bordc.org/resources/conservative.php
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=15033
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3255
So, I must say it is not a pointless argument to stand up and fight for our liberty. Our nation was founded on this principle.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
With respect, I disagree
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 20:04 ET by KC MulvilleI'm not sure I know the difference these days between neocons and crunchy cons and paleocons, etc. National Review had an extended discussion about this a couple years ago, especially Jonah Goldberg. But I wouldn't cast that ambiguity on Buckley. As a matter of fact, Buckley didn't like the Iraq war (George Will doesn't like it either) because it pulled us into nation-building, which is a huge conservative taboo. The neocons (so the story goes) hijacked our act of self-defense and turned it into an excuse to "project American power." Buckley wanted nothing to do with that kind of nonsense.
I don't have much worries about civil liberties, either. I'm a database guy, and most of what they're doing is database mining on public transaction records. Database mining isn't specific to any individual, and so the fears that they're snooping on individuals is simply unfounded.
I always love the common
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 01:47 ET by USA4freedomI always love the common idea that the left has on our collective intelligence. That we are dumb, knuckle dragging Neanderthals. That we are all racist etc. etc.
I have read quite a few post on this thread, they IMHO, are really good, informative, well written, some of the best written in quite awhile.
It’s funny I had my brother-in-law down for about 4 days, 4 days of political debate as he is a super liberal. (my wife a super liberalyears ago, now has seen the light). He tells my wife in private that he did not think that conservatives were smart and our beliefs were stupid that we were just Bible thumping idiots. But.. after 4 days, he tells her that our ideas make quite a bit of sense. (that’s what his sister/my wife said over 15 years ago..) Now she is as conservative as me, a NRA card holding, concealed weapon permit holding part of the Right Wing Conspiracy.
Well it’s late but I wanted to give all of you a pat on the back for the well written post.
Read ours, then go read the Daily Kos, and see who the Neanderthals are!!!!
Don’t give up on conservatism/ even if the RNC has!!!
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, and the Republican party.
Romney / Jendil 2012 (if,we survive)
Having had four
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:51 ET by BuffNBoneHaving had four assignments in the Great State of Texas, I can attest to the manners and decency of the people there. Texans by and large know what is, and do, the right thing. Which is something that is sorely lacking by the coastal and media elite.
Best wishes to Jenna and her husband.
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
Trouble in Obamadise!
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 11:57 ET by Jack BauerOh dear -- finally the New York Times admits something it's spent a long time denouncing others for mentioning...
Guess nobody told the Obama campaign.
why isn't the Obama
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:05 ET by TruthMongerwhy isn't the Obama campaign proud of their candidates rich faith "diversity?"
I wonder why they so ashamed of Obama's Muslim heritage?
Incidentally most US Muslim's voted solidly for GWB in 2000
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0817/p09s01-codc.html
they seem up for grabs now - go get em Obama!! conservatives apparently don't want em...
I have to admit that
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 12:09 ET by Jack BauerI have to admit that thought has crossed my mind.
It's a smear to call someone a Muslim?
What next, called Obama black is also a smear.
Winston Smith and Newspeak is alive and well.
Moronic Judge
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:07 ET by LionKingThe judge in this case is a moron.
LionKing....Moron?? I think
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:16 ET by bassndudeLionKing....Moron?? I think your being to kind.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Those wonderful Democrats
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 13:16 ET by mattm(from an email)
Just in case some of you young whippersnappers (& some older ones) didn't know this. It's easy to check out, if you don't believe it. Be sure and show it to your kids.
They need a little history lesson on what's what, and it doesn't matter whether you are Democrat of Republican. Facts are Facts!!!
Our Social Security:
Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:
1.) That participation in the Program would be Completely voluntary,
2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annualIncomes into the Program,
3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year,
4.) That the money the participants put into the independent "Trust Fund" rather than into the general operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and,
5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.
Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to "put away" -- you may be interested in the following:
Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?
A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the democratically controlled House and Senate.
Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?
A: The Democratic Party.
Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social Security annuities?
A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the "tie-breaking" deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the US
Q: Which Political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants? AND MY FAVORITE:
A: That's right! Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party. immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive Social Security payments! The Democratic Party gave these payments to them, even though they never paid a dime into it!
Then, after violating the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away! And the worst part about it is uninformed citizens believe it!
“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.” -Thomas Jefferson
classic ancient O'Reilly meltdown emerges
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:18 ET by sarcasmoCBS keeps trying (so both those links won't work) to make it disappear off of YouTube, but information as damn-funny as this wants to be free (profanity warning: the F-bomb will be dropped).
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
I LOVE it when these videos
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:40 ET by balboaI LOVE it when these videos surface.
You can tell the audio ended too-early
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 07:18 ET by sarcasmoAnd you can also know that some those off camera people he was yelling at must have HATED that pompous blowhard, or this clip would have never surfaced. I call these clips: "Revenge of the Engineers."
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
I love the fact
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:29 ET by Delsathe Bush's kept this wedding private.
GOD bless them for doing so. I can't think of a more special day for parent and child. To allow media hounds to intrude would be typical of people who cherished themselves over the occasion.
The Bush's are NOT flamboyant political whores as are so many of the political crowd.
Jenna and Henry wanted family, with no fan fair, and I applaud their parents for being who they are and for following their wishes.
God Bless the new couple. May they have a beautiful life.
Jenna and her sister Barbara
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:38 ET by Delsahave been raised in a wholesome unpretentious envrionment and were NEVER seekers of the lime light.
They are fine young women who know who they are and do not need media confirmation!
By the Way, Jenna wanted her wedding at the ranch NOT the White House or Camp David.
She wanted to be married where she grew up. for those of you misfits who don't get it it is called HOME!
Did anyone hear
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:42 ET by Delsathat the Islamic States number 57?
According to the United Nations.... Slip of Obama's tounge?
Yeah Delsa...a couple of
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:55 ET by bigtimerYeah Delsa...a couple of posters here have also had links to that fact and pointed it out since this came out, Rush just did too. I do not think it was a slip of the tongue myself.
As an aside...I'm listening to the show now and a guy called in and asked Rush if Michelle Obama didn't remind him of Ester on Sanford and Son...I posted that a couple of weeks ago...makes me wonder if he posts here...lol!
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Wait, you think Obama
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:00 ET by balboaWait, you think Obama purposefully mentioned the number 57 as a nod to Muslims?
I said I didn't think it
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:07 ET by bigtimerI said I didn't think it was a slip of the tongue didn't I boa?
It is my own opinion....I am allowed that I would think.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Sure, you're allowed, as
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:38 ET by balboaSure, you're allowed, as I'm allowed to think that is a crazy idea.
Obama forgot what States
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:09 ET by Delsahe was talking about. Or maybe he has only, in his lifetime, thought of Islamic States and confused the two.
He isn't clever enough to give a nod to anyone and I think his heart is with "States" other than the United States of America.
When this man started his
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:14 ET by bigtimerWhen this man started his tent-revival traveling salvation show I said then to be wary, very wary of this man and stared reading everything I could about him, the Trinity Church his associates, Michelle ect....when I had time that is...I fear this man...and his real goals.
I will just leave it at that...it is my opinion and mine only.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
It might be your
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:56 ET by ricklailIt might be your opinion but I agree with you. I am wary of him because what the Bible says about false prophets and how they act.
"A pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself, but a spiritual man is easy on others and hard on himself." A.W. Tozer (Pharisee=modern day liberal)
What makes you think he's
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:31 ET by balboaWhat makes you think he's thinking about states other than the USA?
boa...Here you
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:37 ET by bigtimerboa...Here you go... courtesy of Delsa...and what we were talking about earlier.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Bal this is why
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:40 ET by Delsahttp://www.infoplease.com/spot/oicstates1.html
Yes, I know about the 57
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:51 ET by balboaYes, I know about the 57 OIC states. I'm asking what makes you think that Obama is more concerned about them than the United States? Is it simply because of his name and his "shadowy" upbringing?
Bal
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 17:04 ET by DelsaI have absolutly no idea where he is coming from but I now know where he got the 57 states from. This was no slip up. He simply knows the number of Islamic states better than the United States.
You see Bal, 47 states was in the back of his thought process.
This is a man who's family belongs to an American hating political organization that happens to meet on Sundays and masquerads as a church.
"Shadowy"?, is your word but the name he travels with today is not the name on his brith certificate?
He is not what he seems. His wife almost let the cat out of the bag but recovered very well. Thanks to the MSM.
I do not know who he is but I hope we all find out before he is sworn in!
OBAMA'S MAMA Column by Ellen Goodman
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:56 ET by PawpawNCheck out the column by Ellen Goodman on O's mama, and in Charlottesville Daily Progress they called it "OBAMA SHOULD PLUG MAMA". This from the guy who threw his Grandma under the bus! http://www.postwritersgroup.com/archives/good080508.htm
I'm entitled to my opinion
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:16 ET by motherbeltI'm entitled to my opinion of him, and I've always thought it was terrible that his white mother was, as he himself admitted later "the one constant in my life" and yet he seemed to pin all his dreams on his absent black father. The father who deserted his family.
No SSN, no Rebate, etc.
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 14:59 ET by PawpawNAnyone see all the stories this weekend & today about "NO SSN, NO REBATE!" and "HIGHLY SKILLED IMMIGRANTS ON WORK VISAS WILL NOT GET REBATES". So, if you're working in Turkey on work visa and they give a rebate you should get it also!
In VIRGINIA, Gov Kaine wants 4 new taxes
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:03 ET by PawpawNA man on Obama's short list of VP candidates, VA Gov Tim Kaine wants 4 new taxes in Virginia: 1) $10 increase in auto registration fees; 2) 3% to 4% increase in titling fees; 3) 1% increase in taxes on people living in NORTHERN VA & HAMPTON ROADS area[this I could go for but with 20% increase as theirs are the roads that are constantly under repair]; & 4) real estate sales tax. So TAX, TAX, TAX, TAX.
Did Obama mis speak when he said he has been to
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:05 ET by Delsa57 States? Maybe not! Maybe he was not speaking about the United States at all. Or he mixed his states up?
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/oicstates1.html
Hey Delsa, Bingo!!! That
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:56 ET by bigtimerHey Delsa,
Bingo!!! That is the one I was going to look up when I got done with laundry and such today after you mentioned it earlier.
So glad you found it....saved me time and I now saved yours....thanks...
Others can form their own opinions, but I do not think it is or was a slip of the tongue....I do think it was an accident he made by his statement letting out what his core thinking is...he also is lucky here with the media and him being what he is.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Obama actually said there
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:08 ET by motherbeltObama actually said there are 60 states, not 57.
He said he had been to 57, had one more to go, and was leaving out Alaska and Hawaii. That makes 60!
Whoever did that special flag pin is going to have to redo it! ;-)
motherbelt
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 16:26 ET by DelsaObama wanted to say 47 states, but he only has 57 states on his mind.
He slipped up. When some in the audience began to laugh, he smiled, and did not even know what he had said.
Demonstrating the ease with which the # 57 came dripping of his lying tongue.
I could just imagine the MSM coverage of a big-time wedding
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 15:46 ET by YahooWatcherStats rolling across the bottom with Bush's approval rating, number of un-wed mothers in the USA, etc.
Just right for his family,
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 17:07 ET by NorthCoasterThe wedding of Jenna was done correctly for the Bush family. There still will be no end to the sniping and griping at what the family did or didn't do. Why allow the "Media " to cover a it and create a potential "Circus Atmosphere" for anti-Bush Zealots wanting to cause disruption?
Christ's love and peace to the Bush family. May you're future be full of promise.
I read the article about
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 20:37 ET by MikeBI read the article about Barr wanting to run on the Libertarian ticket. I, too, like the Libertarian's fiscal policies, but Barr said he would pull the troops out of Iraq. He lost my vote right then. It seems so many of those who have Libertarian tendencies (Barr and Paul, for example) seem to think that George Washington's recommendation to "avoid foreign entanglements" is a Constitutional charge to the Federal Government. It is no more a Constitutional provision than the "separation of Church and State. The advice is from Washington's Farewell Address.
The current war in Afghanistan and Iraq are practically mandated by the oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. One cannot defend the Constitution (or the country) from a foreign enemy without becoming entangled with him. God help the Iraqis if Paul or Barr or Obama do pull the troops out before the Iraqi government is able to defend themselves, their constitution, their country and their people.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
I'm glad they decided to get
Mon, 05/12/2008 - 22:05 ET by ConservativeRexI'm glad they decided to get married in Texas, now they have somewhere to come back to when they want to remember this event. George should have been ignoring the media like this for the last 7 years. They have done nothing to earn the respect of decent people like the Bush's.
Ah, California logic
Tue, 05/13/2008 - 07:21 ET by sarcasmoI suppose I shouldn't complain. They're literally turning enviro-lefties into libertarians at state expense. I wonder if the enviro-diesel types I know around here are breaking some stupid Florida law?? Probably so.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.