For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: McCain to unveil economic plan (paragraph breaks removed):
John McCain will propose new tax cuts and spending reductions in a speech today, laying out a plan that would give the federal government a central role in reviving the sagging U.S. economy. The presumptive Republican presidential nominee will seek an alternative tax system, a temporary moratorium on gasoline taxes and a doubling of the tax exemption for dependents to $7,000 from $3,500, according to excerpts of his speech released by his campaign. He also will propose plans for affluent Americans to pay more for the Medicare drug plan and for any homeowner in danger of foreclosure to receive a government-guaranteed mortgage.
Will this appeal to Conservatives nonplussed by McCain? Will moderate Independents view such policies as much more desirable than the socialism being proposed by Clinton and Obama? Or will this be seen as empty rhetoric from a man that didn't support Bush's tax cuts?












Comments Policy
Hmmm... It almost sounds as
April 15, 2008 - 10:23 ET by HelenSHmmm... It almost sounds as though the perception is that we can be bought?
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
Well, that's because he
April 15, 2008 - 15:12 ET by dscottWell, that's because he perceives some Conservatives think with their wallet, while others think with their values. Divide and conquer.
He says he wants to phase out the AMT and make the Tax cuts permanent. Then he says increase the personal exemption to $7k from $3.5k.
Think about this, everyone who pays the AMT did not get the Bush tax cut. The number of people paying the AMT went up precisely when the tax cut came in and when the tax cut expires in 2010 all the people that got sucked up into the AMT over the past 5 years will no longer be in it.
By increasing the personal exemption you effectively eliminate the AMT for most the people who were sucked into it from 2003 to 2010. Additionally, the increase in the personal exemption will also drop more people from the low income bracket from the tax rolls. Right now if you make around $7k/yr you pay effectively no Federal Income tax. So this means you would be able to make $10.5k before having to pay anything other than SS and Medicare tax. If you are a single parent of one child, that means you pay no taxes until your income hits $14k.
By making the tax cut permanent with the increased personal exemption, you effectively extend the number of people who benefit from the tax cut. If they don't extend the tax cut, but go with the increase personal exemption, then you still have most of the tax cut for those who got screwed out of it the first time around due to the AMT. Of course the Dems will cry huge tears of grief for the $50 billion taxes from the AMT they will no longer be able to spend frivously buying the votes of the poor.
Lord Sidious / Darth Vader 2008 Long Live the Empire! Come to the Dark Side, it is your Destiny.
CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN SOARS!
April 16, 2008 - 08:25 ET by reelman46CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN SOARS!
Poll: Jindal’s approval rating tops 77 percent
08:05 PM CDT on Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Melinda Deslatte / Associated Press
BATON ROUGE, La. — After three months in office, CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN
Gov. Bobby Jindal’s approval ratings top 77 percent, according to a new
poll released Tuesday, with a majority of those surveyed saying they
trusted the governor to spend their tax dollars wisely.
WWL-TV
Nearly half the respondents in the Southern Media & Opinion
Research poll said their impression of Jindal was “very favorable,”
numbers that pollster Bernie Pinsonat said he’s never seen so high for
a governor just starting in office.
“These are stratospheric numbers,” Pinsonat said.
Fewer than 7 percent of respondents in the poll gave Jindal a poor
rating, with the rest refusing to answer or saying they didn’t know.
Jindal, a CONSERVATIVE
Republican, took office in January. His popularity, according to the
poll, spanned political parties. Nearly three-quarters of the Democrats
polled gave Jindal favorable marks, along with 90 percent of the
Republicans surveyed.
CRAWFISH NOTE: We are now told by the libmedia and some mushy moderates that “conservatism is dead”. Explain this then.
You can be sure this man pains the secular socialists greatly. No
baggage to drag out, no dirt to throw. Its going to be a long few years
for the democrat-socialists in Louisiana.
Doug Schexnayder, Ph.D. (theconservativecrawfish)
And now, a special Tax-Day
April 15, 2008 - 10:25 ET by Roger the ShrubberAnd now, a special Tax-Day edition of the Shrub Report®:
The latest Parents of the Year nominee.
Cuban Paradise claims another victim.
It's time to play Guess the Party!
Happy 54th, Seka…
Foreclosures up 57%! What? That is compared to a year ago, and numbers are only up 5% since last month? Oh. Huh? Only 1 in 538 houses are in some stage of foreclosure? That comes out to about 99.82% of homeowners are NOT in foreclosure? Oh.
Murtha hearts the troops.
Today's Ethanol Genocide Update.
So, who gets charged for the carbon credits?
And, finally, The Completely Worthless List of the Day.
and the latest Republican
April 15, 2008 - 10:33 ET by motherbeltand the latest Republican gaffe:
Someone called Barack Obama "that boy" (oh, boy!)
Not to worry
April 15, 2008 - 11:27 ET by iveseenitallMotherbelt:
Not to worry, Mother. He's written a thesis to apologize. I hear he's also going to get thirty lashes on the House floor and be forced to wear one of those itchy vests under his clothes for three years. And no knee pads for him when he crawls in front of Barry--those are for the black basketball "men". Jail time is also being considered. Any questions?
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Sad to see any word or
April 15, 2008 - 10:51 ET by Roger the ShrubberSad to see any word or phrase that can even remotely be considered a potentially-racist slur can get a person lynched.
Whoops, I mean hung by a rope.
Er, I mean, given a good whippin'.
Damn, I mean strung up like Mussolini. Insulting Italians is still okay.
Oh wait, even better: crucified. There. Catholics are still obviously fair game, too.
Damn, I mean strung up
April 15, 2008 - 11:37 ET by motherbeltDamn, I mean strung up like Mussolini. Insulting Italians is still okay.
This 100% second-generation Italian-American says them's fightin' words!! LOL
And I won't even get INTO the Catholic thing!!
You're lucky I like you!
And you're right....just conversing any more is a minefield....
Speech police.
April 15, 2008 - 11:20 ET by Missouri ConservativeHave we now devolved to the point where saying "that boy" is racist?!? Sheesh.
Most southerners I know refer to all young men as "boy" or "son". Hell, I've been called that many times.
"women and minorities hardest hit"
It happened to me right here on NB...
April 15, 2008 - 11:26 ET by sarcasmoAbout a year ago. Same word "boy," but I was being deliberately disrespectful, not racist.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Okay -- I'll call you a
April 15, 2008 - 11:43 ET by Jack BauerOkay -- I'll call you a yob!
That's an actual cockney reversal slang of boy, in common usage in the UK.
Well, if you look at the context...
April 15, 2008 - 11:46 ET by sarcasmoIt was me doing the calling, and getting the clueless "racist" accusation. I'm just trying to keep the gander-sauce on hand when it's needed. 1 standard.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
sarc, you know damn well
April 15, 2008 - 11:52 ET by motherbeltsarc, you know damn well there isn't going to be one standard.
Yes.
April 15, 2008 - 11:54 ET by sarcasmoThat's why I'm here. :)
One of Rush Limbaugh's better lines seems to apply here: "I am equal time."
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
And isn't yob-o a
April 15, 2008 - 11:51 ET by motherbeltAnd isn't yob-o a variation?
Had a neighbor who was a cop when we lived there...he used to talk about the yob-o's hanging around the High Street.
mb -- correctomundo! A
April 15, 2008 - 11:57 ET by Jack Bauermb -- correctomundo!
A yobbo is the standard spelling. In Wales, the term boyyo (pronounce. boy-o) is used in casual conversation, like you may use pal, mate, bud, buddy, et al!
I enjoy this topic immensly
April 15, 2008 - 12:09 ET by TruthMongerI enjoy this topic immensly - same with the "pikers" - it seems that any words involving consonants or vowels seems to work just fine...
for instance today they could start referring to a television as a wizzlewuzzle and it would be all over east London by Friday, and it's probably in my cockney slang dictionary already...
yabbos
April 15, 2008 - 12:11 ET by SemperrightHey are we talking bout yabbos?
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The MARINES don't have that problem."
President Ronald Reagan - 1985
Yobbos
April 17, 2008 - 00:35 ET by BritcomI think the term "yobbos" in England is understood more to mean "juvenile delinquents", rather than referring to young people in general.
---
Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"
Interesting.
April 15, 2008 - 12:54 ET by Roger the ShrubberYou can find that post from the past, yet nothing on a supposed Shrubber meltdown about Ted Stevens.
Now, hmmmm, I wonder why....
Because I didn't need to try...
April 15, 2008 - 13:00 ET by sarcasmoYou melted down many times since by saying stupid crap (examples: repeatedly accusing me of being a pedophile to the point that Warner had to slap your ass down and delete comments just to get the last word, which is why this moronic-meltdown comment no longer exists) so you don't get that kind of respect from me, Whiner. Go find your Ted Stevens meltdown yourself.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
In other words: because it
April 15, 2008 - 13:14 ET by Roger the ShrubberIn other words: because it never happened.
Plus, the link to the WTH being a snobby a-hole thread was never altered. You are a double loser, which comes to SUCH a shocking surprise to everybody here.
Thank you for the validation of your "faulty memory". The respect of a liar is oh-so important to the rest of us. Suck up your pride, admit you have been acting like a cry-baby douche, and you might get back some of that respect back you have lost here.
Until you do, I think you know which orifice of yours you can place your head in.
You may go now, liar.
Nope. And I'll stay, Whiner, because I've never lied here.
April 15, 2008 - 13:17 ET by sarcasmoAnd that link would work if the comment hadn't been deleted. I'll give you the respect you deserve, and you've proved that's minimal-at-best. You're just annoyed that you've been smacked-down yet-again. Deal with it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Kindly prove to us all of
April 15, 2008 - 13:26 ET by Roger the ShrubberKindly prove to us all of this. You have had more than ample opportunity. Spouting off unfounded accusations is rather pathetic, liar. But that has never stopped you before.
Sucks to be a liar. sucks to be you.
Ta-ta, crybaby!
If I spent the time to find it..
April 15, 2008 - 13:41 ET by sarcasmoYou'd (and you're singular, so skip the Royal We, Whiner) no doubt lie about it being a meltdown, just as you've lied about me repeatedly and lied today about the thread Warner needed to delete in order to get the last word with a whiner. Again, not worth my time. Conservatives who show disrespect to me will continue to get the "respect" they deserve from me. Get used to it, it's not about to change.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Quit Your Whining
April 15, 2008 - 13:57 ET by TinianLink or slink.
Likewise
April 15, 2008 - 14:01 ET by sarcasmoI already said why I won't. Deal with it.
I'll do as I please, and I've already linked to a (deleted, it was even better before Warner needed to delete just to get the last word!) Whiner meltdown. Look, trying to help the Whiner's not gonna help help him, it's just making him look even more foolish for taking me on today. I've repeatedly proven I can take on a bunch of you at once whenever I want.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
as if links mean anything
April 15, 2008 - 14:39 ET by TruthMongeras if links mean anything to roger the bigot:)
bigot boy has some serious insecurity issues, sarc - as we all can see
I really hope it's not all down to the old "length/girth" thing - that would be just plain sad...
Once again, prove I am a
April 15, 2008 - 20:21 ET by Roger the ShrubberOnce again, prove I am a bigot.
Until you can/do, I will continue exposing your cult for what it is, and keep pointing out to everybody what a true dumbass apologist you are, Islamic Douche Boy.
So, let's sum this up
April 15, 2008 - 14:01 ET by Roger the ShrubberSo, let's sum this up (because obviously you are too retarded to understand):
You lie, then you defend your lie by telling another lie. Then you defend both lies by stating I would have denied committing the offense that you lied about, had you NOT lied about it in the first place. Are you able to function on your own? Do you live in some sort of halfway house, because you have some serious issues coping with reality.
Like I said before, you may go now. Liar Hour is over.
I've never lied here, Whiner.
April 15, 2008 - 14:03 ET by sarcasmoAnd you know it. Why you want to whine about one of the only fiscal conservatives left in the party is left to the imaginations of others, but the idea that I've lied about you is laughable. You melted down, and I recall it, and you'd no-doubt deny it if I spent the time to dig it up. Deal with it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Translation: I lied and I
April 15, 2008 - 14:29 ET by Roger the ShrubberTranslation: I lied and I am a crybaby whiner.
I can play this all day, Paulbot. Nothing will change: you are a lying scumbag until you offer some proof to back yourself up. The burden is on you, liar. You seem unfamiliar with how the court system works, which is surprising, since you claim to be all-knowing.
Until then, your nose will keep on growing.
Nope...
April 15, 2008 - 14:41 ET by sarcasmoThere's no way to objectively prove "a meltdown" even if I took the time to find your other one (besides the example I already gave today) because it's a matter of opinion. Deal with it. You lose. And I can take on liars like you all day, too, and you have lied about me.
If you had not melted down on the day Stevens fell, I would not have ever said you melted down that day. Your continued whines about me telling the truth about the incident, which is again a matter of opinion, function as evidence themselves, too, and this is more fun. Don't like it? Next time, don't start lying about me. Otherwise, deal with it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Look at you two... *
April 15, 2008 - 19:45 ET by MrShyLook at you two...
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
You have long-stopped
April 15, 2008 - 20:12 ET by Roger the ShrubberYou have long-stopped making sense. Wow. Dude, you need help. Seriously.
Boyz To Men
April 15, 2008 - 11:49 ET by zeestephenI spent the 1970's in the Carolinas.
Almost every white Southerner I knew used the word "boy" interchangeably with the word "guy."
"Boy" was also used as a mixture of sarcasm and family affection, as in referring to your father or grandfather as "that boy."
And, Churchill's chief aide in WW2 would field phone calls in the afternoon with the line, "Sorry, the old boy's gone down for his nap."
I use boy all teh time when
April 15, 2008 - 11:31 ET by Dan The Man 2I use boy all teh time when refering to men. Its a southern thing, like how yall boys doin?
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Yeah, just don't try using
April 15, 2008 - 11:36 ET by motherbeltYeah, just don't try using it with any southern black men....
OK this is all I can take
April 15, 2008 - 20:51 ET by red_dragon311This is a story on yahoo about Barak H-word Obama on how he found Basketball a way to deal with being a black child in Hawai
"Barack Obama says growing up without a father led him to play basketball and the game offered him a chance to identify racially in Hawaii, a state without a large black population"
So being fatherless lead him to basketball,It was not wanting to play a sport, it was not wanted to belong to a team, it was not that he had basketball talent...he didn't have a father.
This is the money quote
"Here is a place where being black was not a disadvantage"
"Here was a sport in which we were dominant. All those things, I think, contributed to the idea that there's something special about this."
just what in the hell is he talking about?????? "Here was a sport in which we were dominant..."
dominant over who, and did you pick basketball for the love of the game, or for beiong fatherless, or to dominate people.
this asshat is really the best this to happen to Her thighness, he just needs to keep satying this dumbass statements.
once again Barak H-word Obama "F" you
I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist
It's not explained well in
April 15, 2008 - 21:11 ET by balboaIt's not explained well in the article, but I'm not sure "F you" was necessary.
Having been involved in athletics most of my life, he probably was attracted to a team environment in a sport that he excelled in, where there was a male role model leading the team as a coach.
Bal the "F" you is to Barak
April 15, 2008 - 21:39 ET by red_dragon311Bal the "F" you is to Barak H-word Obama, for being an ass. I have ended many posts i write about Barak with "Barak H-word Obama F you"
Enough is too much already, his middle name, the Rev Wright stuff, typicial white people, bitter church goers,
I am sick of it from him, no other person would be given the free pass he has been granted...and no he's not giving himself the free pass the MSM is so they deserve one too, but Barak H-word Obama is saying F you to the people us the USA by everythnig he does.
He regrets that people got offened by the "bitter" comment.....he doesn't that he said somthing stupid, but that we got offened.
If McCain had called Blacks in ghetto's bitter because the gov't isn't helping them how soon would we have a different candidate for rep nominee
but i have been called out, i will no longer use F you. I am sorry if i offended you that was not my intention. I was venting my frustration.
I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist
I guess I missed the history
April 15, 2008 - 22:00 ET by balboaI guess I missed the history of the F you.
It's ok, I told myself I
April 15, 2008 - 22:57 ET by red_dragon311It's ok, I told myself I would stop doing it if somone said something about it.
It only took 3 or 4 posts too.
I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first analrapist
He regrets that people got
April 16, 2008 - 06:21 ET by motherbeltHe regrets that people got offened by the "bitter" comment.....he
doesn't that he said somthing stupid, but that we got offened.
That is what annoys me too. The passive tone. It's like the old "Mistakes were made" comment by President GHW Bush, and the entire media went into a frenzy, decrying him for not taking the blame for his mistakes.
Just once I would like to hear an apology that says I'm sorry that I offended people or even "if I" offended anyone. Enough with this passive tone that acts as if being "offended" was the fault of the people who experienced it.
I used this example before: a guy who goes to a party with his wife, (or fiancee), spends the entire night hitting on other women, and when the woman blows her stack says "I'm sorry that you are upset about that."
he probably was attracted
April 16, 2008 - 06:12 ET by motherbelthe probably was attracted to a team environment in a sport that he
excelled in, where there was a male role model leading the team as a
coach. -balboa
bal, he tells his thoughts on everything; had that been the reason, why wouldn't he say so? He admitted he was attracted to basketball because it was a sport in which "we" [blacks] were dominant.
There is way too much of this coming from Obama. He pretends to be the one who can be all things to all people, the one who can bring us together. Yet too often glimpsesof his racial preference and animosity peek through: things like that comment. Also, the fact that he chooses ignore the caucasian side of his heritage and identifies himself as "black" even though it was his black father who deserted him, and he was raised by his white grandparents. Smacks of racialism over gratitude to me.
When people understand the
April 15, 2008 - 10:32 ET by Dan The Man 2When people understand the congress controls the tax codes and collection therof we will be much better off. The President can propose but getting something reasonable passed is next to impossible. President Bush had a Republican congress and he encountered all sorts of gridlock. Why does McCain think he can get this passed as President when he has less power to make it so as President.
I think it is a smoke screen.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
The answer is easy
April 15, 2008 - 10:46 ET by OldSailor88McCain can get it done because he's a Democrat.
You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm.
-GEORGE ORWELL
China & most of US agree on 2 things anyway!
April 15, 2008 - 10:33 ET by PawpawNSeems we have more in common with China than I thought. Seems we are together on 2 items by this news story:
BEIJING — Bristling at criticism in the run-up to the Summer Olympics, China is lashing back at its foreign critics _ by name.
Earlier this week, the state Xinhua news agency called House Speaker Nancy Pelosi “disgusting.” And on Tuesday, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu lambasted a CNN commentator, Jack Cafferty, for his “vicious” commentary on China.
“We solemnly request that CNN, and Cafferty himself, take back the malicious remarks and apologize to the Chinese people,” Jiang said at a news briefing.
"Disgusting" is real good and "Vicious" also hits the mark! These people appear more intellectually balanced than the DIMS here!
McCain's idiocy
April 15, 2008 - 10:42 ET by cheesegraterI read on Drudge that Sen. McCain says we are already in an economic recession and that it is the fault of the President and Congress. Isn't he a member of Congress? As "El Rushbo" says "We're screwed".
I thought McCain...
April 15, 2008 - 10:54 ET by Prester John....blamed it on those greedy Wall Street investors.
Fault
April 15, 2008 - 11:16 ET by cheesegraterIn the linked article he says that the President and Congress didn't do enough to rein in the "greedy" Wall Street investors. I don't know about you, but I'm a Wall Street investor. I thought investing and saving were good for the country.
I'm an evil greedy investor also
April 15, 2008 - 11:27 ET by Prester JohnAnd that means that since I started investing for my son's education when he was born I was able to accumulate the money to pay for 4 years of college and not having him or myself saddled with $60,000 in debt when he graduates in 2009.
I guess that makes me a bad person.
Not that I'm bitter or anything.
"Women of the Polygamist
April 15, 2008 - 10:45 ET by Leon"Women of the Polygamist Retreat Speak Out"...
..reads todays headline. Seems to me that the MSM is taking a compassionate, feel sympathetic stance towards this group.
I disagree entirely.
Did these women ever speak out when their underage daughters were taken to bed in the Temple?
One woman said:
"It's been all through history, " said Brenda, the mother of two. "We were just here trying to live a peaceful, happy, sweet life. We don't understand why we can't do this freely."
Wah. We're sorry. This is America where it's illegal to abuse children. That's why you can't do it freely. Give us a break. It's been all through history is right, b/c you polygamists have been dead wrong since the beginning of your history. Don't blame us when it's your lifestyle that's the problem.
These people are sick and I have no sympathy or compassion for them.
Beds in the Temple? Nuff said.
LINK
Leon... The world may
April 15, 2008 - 12:19 ET by Clear thinkerLeon...
The world may come to an end today. This is the first time I have ever agreed with anything you have written. These woman were brainwashed into this lifestyle and became the bearers of the next generation of young girls to be handed over to the men.
This is NOT Christianity!!!
"Abstain from McCain"
Sure sounds like a cult to me...
April 15, 2008 - 12:51 ET by Roger the ShrubberPartner with Islam!
Now, all that's left if for
April 15, 2008 - 12:58 ET by Free StinkerNow, all that's left if for TruthMonger to come along and defend this cult.
I would be disappointed if
April 15, 2008 - 13:03 ET by Roger the ShrubberI would be disappointed if he didn't.
I'll bet Rog, How else
April 15, 2008 - 13:05 ET by LeonI'll bet Rog,
How else would you spend the rest of your day?
It's only 1 pm and dinner's not until 4 pm. That's a lot of free time for you to fill.
Uh-oh, someone needs their
April 15, 2008 - 13:22 ET by Roger the ShrubberUh-oh, someone needs their binky.
always love to disappoint
April 15, 2008 - 15:05 ET by TruthMongeralways love to disappoint rog the bigot:)
Ist there anything wrong
April 15, 2008 - 17:30 ET by Dan The Man 2Ist there anything wrong with being a bigot? Bigot has negative connetations but according to this definition a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices it seems we are all bigots to one degree or another. If we were not then there would not be teh array of opinions.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Good point, Dan... I made
April 15, 2008 - 19:55 ET by TruthMongerGood point, Dan...
I made this point a while back...
http://newsbusters.org/forums/woodshed/nbs-very-own-bigot-17719
Technically Jesus is a bigot - a "good" bigot...
...but in the classic sense "bigot" is usually short for "bad bigot" - saves some typing but can lead to the confusion you so aptly noted...
obviously rog is a bad bigot, Jesus would not take bigotboy's attitude towards Muslims - Jesus would theologically disagree with them of course, but still show them respect...
I agree " - Jesus
April 15, 2008 - 23:34 ET by Dan The Man 2I agree " - Jesus would
theologically disagree with.." Muslims "...but still show them
respect..." when He comes back He will show them the business end of His sword, as it says in the Bible. He will respect their free will to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and Jesus will respect that decision.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
I agree " - Jesus
April 15, 2008 - 23:36 ET by Dan The Man 2I agree " - Jesus would
theologically disagree with.." Muslims "...but still show them
respect..." when He comes back He will show them the business end of His sword, as it says in the Bible. He will respect their free will to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and Jesus will respect that decision.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Clear about Leon
April 15, 2008 - 12:51 ET by ThisnThatI was going to say the same thing -- then pinch myself to see if I'm still alive and awake.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
Well CT,If the world
April 15, 2008 - 13:02 ET by LeonWell CT,
If the world does end today, at least we're having some beautiful weather where I am. Wouldn't want to die on a rainy day.
These people are truly unbelievable. You are 100% correct in everything you've said. The women have bought into this system of abuse as much as the men. I blame all of these people. At any time, any single one of those mothers could have spoken out and defended her child. But did they? No. That makes them equally as guilty as the men.
I'm all for respecting one's right to worship, until that worship harms innocent people (i.e. children). I can't see how they can even begin to justify any of their disturbing behaviors.
I can't believe we still allow these types of communities to exist in our country.
*shudder*
CT, You think this is
April 15, 2008 - 13:11 ET by LeonCT,
You think this is bad. Check this story out I just read.
LINK
Apparently, the US government has given businesses tied to these maniacs a $1 million loan and a $1.2 million military contract.
Isn't it great to see your tax dollars going to support child abusers?
Aint big government a hoot?
April 15, 2008 - 13:48 ET by Free StinkerAint big government a hoot?
One agency is doling out money to them, while another (state) agency is launching a criminal investigation . . .
That why I Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
polygamy is
April 15, 2008 - 15:09 ET by TruthMongerpolygamy is Biblical...
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/
"polygamy is
April 15, 2008 - 15:22 ET by QueenMum"polygamy is Biblical..."
As I understand it, polygamy came into practice in the Mormon community when Joseph Smith was moving the faithful west. If an adult male who was a husband and father died along the way, another man in the community would marry the widow so that there was someone to take care of her and her children. As with the early Jewish people, it made sense as a way to assure the survival of the community. Of course, this is no longer a necessity other than perhaps in Islam where the purpose is to outnumber the infidels.
As far as it being biblical, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not TM. As you know, there is much in the Old Testament in particular that is no longer adhered to - even among Jews. It's understood that the instructions that God gave His people prior to the coming of Christ were to develop and prepare a people for the Messiah. The Old Testament is a history of God's people and a foundation for God's kingdom on earth - not just a collection of stories and lists of rules and regulations.
I am the exotic Queen Mum, and I approved this message.
Queen, got to think that
April 15, 2008 - 17:43 ET by bassndudeQueen, got to think that Soloman and David were around long befor Joey Smith and the gang.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
polygamy is Biblical and so
April 15, 2008 - 17:37 ET by Dan The Man 2polygamy is Biblical and so is killing the evil and wicked like Islam. According to the Bible any who follow or associate with Islam is evil and wicked and deserves to die. God destroyed all but Noah and his family and 2 cities in the Bible because the people were evil. The Bible may observe that men did practice poligamy He did not want men to practice it. In teh garden God made Adam and Eve ... not Mary and Estelle and other women. A man and his wife shall cleave to one another, not a man shall cleave to his many wives.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Dan, Isalm was not around
April 15, 2008 - 17:47 ET by bassndudeDan, Isalm was not around untill some 2 or 300 years after Jesus. No where have I seen it mentioned in the Bible. As for killing the wicked, did not Jesus teach to shun them? Not to hang out with them and practice their ways?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, Pontius Pilate had
April 15, 2008 - 17:59 ET by NL207Bass,
Pontius Pilate had Jesus crucified sometime around 33 AD give or take 3 years. Islam was not founded until 602 AD when Mohammed's followers first returned to Mecca to take vengeance upon the tribal elders there who had exiled Mohammed to Medina. This is more like 570 years than 200 or 300 years.
You are right and my point
April 15, 2008 - 18:21 ET by Dan The Man 2You are right and my point was and is that Islam is evil in God's eyes and evil must be destroyed. I did not mean that the Bible literally said Islam was evil, however, the father of all Islam was set out with his mother when God told Hagar to return to Sarah "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count" and bore Ishmael a direct ancestor to Mohamed. It was in response to TM, directed specifically at TM. Of course the idea was to say poligamy is not condoned in teh Bible only allowed by God.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
So far, all we seem to know
April 15, 2008 - 14:45 ET by QueenMumSo far, all we seem to know for certain is that these people lived a simple way of life. The photos of the women and children remind me of the same things I see when I visit the area of Ohio where the Amish and Mennonites live.
Jeffs was proven to be a polygamist pervert, child abuser by every legal definition. But so far, I've not yet seen solid evidence presented in the media regarding what was going on in this particular enclave. The men of the community seem to be cooperative. All I have to go on at this point is that the authorities seem to feel there is compelling evidence to justify detaining some of the women and children. Thus far, the unidentified caller who opened up this whole can of worms is nowhere to be found.
I'm certainly not taking the side of a so-called "religious" sect that has a reputation for forcing young girls into "spiritual marriages" with adult men. Nor do I suggest a clear comparison with the lifestyle of the Amish and Mennonites. I just hope that the evidence is clear and convincing in this case. Otherwise, the whole incident will blow up in the faces of the authorities and the community, and no one will be willing to move forward with similar charges in the future.
I saw an interview with a FNC reporter who had been allowed inside the sect's compound and also was allowed to speak with some of the women. It was his observation that the women were upset about their circumstances and confused about why they were being detained. He reported that, although he wasn't permitted inside the "temple", he didn't see any evidence of the sort of activity that's been charged. He also said that he felt the men were being very cooperative under the circumstances.
I want to see more facts and hard evidence before I jump on the sensationalist media bandwagon. If there are those who have links that might provide facts or evidence that I may have missed, I'd appreciate the help.
As far as the "bed in the temple", where did this part of the story come from?
I am the exotic Queen Mum, and I approved this message.
bravo Queen Mum
April 15, 2008 - 15:10 ET by TruthMongerbravo Queen Mum
Sounds like law enforcement
April 15, 2008 - 15:23 ET by dscottSounds like law enforcement will have a major problem on their hands if they don't find the person who lodged the complaint. Their warrants were based on the complaint (probable cause), if they don't find the person, then any good lawyer will argue this was a fishing expedition and anything (evidence) found as a result of the erroneous warrant will have to be dismissed. All fruit of the poisoned vine is inadmissible as evidence. There is a reason for that, this prevents or deters authorities from engaging in false accusations just to issue a warrant to satisfy their interest in merely looking for a violation.
Lord Sidious / Darth Vader 2008 Long Live the Empire! Come to the Dark Side, it is your Destiny.
Exactly
April 15, 2008 - 17:42 ET by bigtimerExactly dscott.....
...and it looks to me like there is some major problems for law enforcement on down the road with all of this.
The gal has never been found yet that lodged this complaint, it sounds like she wasn't from the compound at all now but an outside source, the guy originally named was Dale Barlow, who according to everything I have heard so far was no where near there for a long time if ever, at least not since '99..it may be a gal named or linked to this gal who left with her kids named Carolyn Jessup who was the third wife of some guy and the fourth wife was on with AC's Cooper Anderson last night too, who Cooper at first treated as some dumb hick, which she informed him she had a college degree...seems to be some kind of old bitter green-eyed monster thing going on to cut to the chase....the third sister wife was also on the phone too afterwards, and it is all about her....her her her....she is still angry with the fourth gal.
time will tell, but to separate all these kids and think social services is going to be better for the families is nuts IMO...
This reminds me of shades of Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian Gonzales in a way...
I find the whole thing sad....like Queen, we have Mennonite and Amish neighbors all over the place, I know these are all not the same but they are all respected here, their way of life is different..that is all.
The law is gonna' have a lot of explaining to do in court...in the meantime I feel sorry for the whole situation.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
BT, I find your post
April 15, 2008 - 17:48 ET by LeonBT,
I find your post defending a group of child molestors to be sad.
Their lives will be worse in social services?
At least social services won't force these girls to have sex and marry old perverts.
This is an open and shut case. These people deserve to go down and pay the price for their sick behavior.
Don't worry, in time you'll be able to look back and realize how ridiculous the above post sounds.
ps how can you even attempt to compare these people to Mennonites? It's apples and oranges. Mennonites don't abuse their children as part of their religion. It's shameful to even try to make this comparison.
Leon... I want no child
April 15, 2008 - 17:51 ET by bigtimerLeon...
I want no child to be abused, I was taken away by social services...there is good and bad in all...and some who think they know better than others.
My point is nothing has been proven here with the original warrant...nothing.
This is the USA....you are innocent until proven guilty...or supposed to be.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
BT, 1) Trust me, social
April 15, 2008 - 18:03 ET by LeonBT,
1) Trust me, social services should always be the last resort. However, when there is rampant, institutionalized abuse that results in a vicious never-ending cycle like in these communities, the only way to help, is to break the cycle. It might not be so great for the kids that have to suffer, but each subsequent generation will be grateful to them for their freedom and normal lives. It has to stop somewhere and as much as I would like to avoid splitting up families, every single adult is guilty of serious crimes. It would be irresponsible to allow them to continue to raise children.
2) Nothing has been proven yet in a court of law. But Jeffs has been convicted. Jeffs was the leader. Beds in the temple. Rumors for years. Come on. We all know what's going on in there. If a 16 year old girl is pregnant for the 4th time, that's a major indictment.
3) Innocent until proven guilty perhaps. That doesn't mean that you should try to defend these people. Leave that to their lawyers. There's simply no excuse for the way they live their lives. The MSM wants me to feel sympathy for these monsters? Forget about it.
Leon... What msm has
April 15, 2008 - 18:13 ET by bigtimerLeon...
What msm has shown pity ...name one.
I do have things to do, so I haven't watched television all day since this happened...inform me what msm has shown a bias towards this group?
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
BT, All of them. 1)
April 15, 2008 - 18:18 ET by LeonBT,
All of them.
1) Every single picture featured is of these 'poor' women crying. Looking soooo distraught.
2) AP sympathy puff piece today. Featured all over the place.
Oh, boo hoo, boo hoo the poooooor mothers who stand by and watch as their daughters are sexually abused.
Please. The MSM is painting the compassionate picture. It's all bs.
Until you are separated
April 15, 2008 - 18:24 ET by bigtimerUntil you are separated from a child of yours in whatever form that comes in then shut up Leon you couldn't possibly understand some of those womens feelings that show on their faces.
We know nothing about all of these people.
Time will tell...enough said.
If abuse has been proven then this will come out and hopefully justice will be done....but until then...
I am done going back and forth with you on this...for now anyway.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Fine BT, I'll just leave
April 15, 2008 - 18:31 ET by LeonFine BT,
I'll just leave you with one question.
Did they cry like this when their daughters were taken away to be sexually abused?
"Did they cry like this
April 15, 2008 - 19:50 ET by QueenMum"Did they cry like this when their daughters were taken away to be sexually abused?"
Probably not, since they had spent their lives being brainwashed by the leaders of the sect to believe that it's all a part of their religion.
I am the exotic Queen Mum, and I approved this message.
Leon, you are missing the
April 16, 2008 - 11:27 ET by dscottLeon, you are missing the point, just because someone makes an accusation doesn't mean it is true. When law enforcement engages in accusations without probable cause you get situations like Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. that spiral out of control getting people killed needlessly. Given that half or most of what we hear on the news is factually wrong, it is presumptuous to pass any type of judgement on the actions of the whole group. At this point we don't know if the 16 yr old you referenced was an isolated incident, nor do we know the factual circumstances under which she had 4 kids. You are making assumptions with little basis in fact. Like what was the age of the male with whom specifically this 16 year old female conceived children? There are thousands of teens who get pregnant every year, how is this any different? Do you decry teen pregnancy with equal emotion? We hear lots of ages thrown around in relation to the group but what are the facts? Can you even list them?
Not being a Morman, I find it very easy to "believe" the story (confirmation bias), however, I temper this with the knowledge that we have been repeatedly mislead before. Of course every normal rational person is upset a child gets abused in some way, emotions are a good motivator but sound judgement based on facts must determine the course of action. Sorry, Leon but I for one am very cynical when it comes to the MSM trumpeting anything in order to push the emotional button, 9 times out of 10 we find things were not really anything close to what they initially claimed. Are you asking for a suspension of disbelief to accept the story on it's face value?
Lord Sidious / Darth Vader 2008 Long Live the Empire! Come to the Dark Side, it is your Destiny.
http://www.foxnews.com/story
April 16, 2008 - 12:07 ET by dscotthttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351450,00.html The facts recounted so far doesn't sound open and shut to me. Nor does rolling in with an armored personnel carrier sound appropriate to the case of child abuse. Something stinks here, and the longer this stays in the open, the more rotten the smell becomes. Someone has lot's of explaining to do regarding taking 400 children not named in the warrant.
Lord Sidious / Darth Vader 2008 Long Live the Empire! Come to the Dark Side, it is your Destiny.
Oh Leon!!! You remember
April 21, 2008 - 15:43 ET by dscottOh Leon!!! You remember what I said about the MSM getting it wrong 9 times out of 10 and having half the facts wrong?????? The call to the Texas authorities was a HOAX. Guess who called in the false report????
UPDATE: Rozita Swinton, the woman arrested today for falsely tipping off the police that she was an abused child bride at the FLDS polygamy cult in Texas is a PLEDGED BARACK OBAMA STATE DELEGATE!!
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192350.php
There was no abused 16 year old girl with 4 kids!!!!!!! It was another fake but true story from an agent of the Democrat Party. Just as you shouldn't believe something when it's too good to be true, you shouldn't believe something when it so nicely fits the confirmation bias, remember that phrase Leon, confirmation bias, in other words, a "story" that is sure to hook the listener because that's what they want to hear to confirm their world view.
Lord Sidious / Darth Vader 2008 Long Live the Empire! Come to the Dark Side, it is your Destiny.
Wow, that's something. But...
April 21, 2008 - 16:09 ET by sarcasmoIf this is so, the real story is the mental Waco these kids have gone through for the past couple of weeks. I'm not "defending the cult," but this story was immediately jumped-on by the "Nancy Grace control freak" segment of the media that perpetually assumes guilt. Nancy and others took the role of media-prosecutor on the flimsiest of evidence in order to sound "tough" and get ratings, IMO.
Do I think these people are a bit nutty? Yes, that's my personal opinion of them. But being nutty isn't illegal in the USA (yet!) and even if a lot of people share my opinion that they're sorta nutty, that's no reason to abuse them at taxpayer expense just because they're odd and are said to sometimes marry too young.
And hell, if I arrested & questioned 400 random families out of your or my phone book I'd probably be able to scrape-up one or 2 cases of child sexual abuse, sadly enough, but that's no excuse for this mass-travesty if they finally-do, IMO. Precedents like this mental Waco suck for long term freedom just like they'll suck for Texas taxpayers financing that bevy of shysters. Think about it...The next religion could be yours.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
The fact that the
April 21, 2008 - 17:19 ET by dscottThe fact that the authorities have not immediately returned the children to their parents upon finding out and arresting this person for filing a false report also speaks volumes. So here we have the legal system (the