For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: antiwar Democrats were paid by Saddam to visit Iraq in October 2002 (paragraph breaks removed):
Saddam Hussein's intelligence agency secretly financed a trip to Iraq for three U.S. lawmakers during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion, federal prosecutors said Wednesday. The three anti-war Democrats made the trip in October 2002, while the Bush administration was trying to persuade Congress to authorize military action against Iraq. While traveling, they called for a diplomatic solution...The lawmakers are not named in the indictment but the dates correspond to a trip by Democratic Reps. Jim McDermott of Washington, David Bonior of Michigan and Mike Thompson of California.
What do you think about this nonsense? How much press coverage do you expect this will get? What kind of penalities will these three receive?














Comments Policy
»→ I don't know about you
March 27, 2008 - 09:52 ET by Cool ArrowBut this Obama guy is giving a truly Hamiltonian speech on the economy right now.
I think First graders should hear this speech.
♣ a seal
Another American Company Hurting America
March 27, 2008 - 09:52 ET by LeonSeriously, this is getting out of control.
How long are we going to allow American contractors to directly harm our war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan? When are we going to demand accountability for this garbage? At what point does flagrantly corrupt and inefficient work become treasonous?
We all know about KBR, but today we learn of some new scum bags.
AEY Inc. $300 million dollage federal contract. They are the main supplier of munitions to Afghanistan's army and police force.
So what do they do with this massive contract? They cut corners to increas their profitability at the EXPENSE of our war effort in Afghanistan.
Since winning the contract last January, "the company has provided ammunition that is more than 40 years old and in decomposing packaging, according to an examination of the munitions by The New York Times and interviews with American and Afghan officials. Much of the ammunition comes from the aging stockpiles of the old Communist bloc, including stockpiles that the State Department and NATO have determined to be unreliable and obsolete, and have spent millions of dollars to have destroyed."
Okay so their providing obsolete munitions for $300 million dollars. Great. But to make matters worse:
"In purchasing munitions, the contractor has also worked with middlemen and a shell company on a federal list of entities suspected of illegal arms trafficking.
Moreover, tens of millions of the rifle and machine-gun cartridges were manufactured in China, making their procurement a possible violation of American law. The company’s president, Efraim E. Diveroli, was also secretly recorded in a conversation that suggested corruption in his company’s purchase of more than 100 million aging rounds in Albania, according to audio files of the conversation."
There's been a lot of talk around here about prominent liberals in America hurting the war effort and emboldening our enemies with their rhetoric. Call after call has been made, demanding accountability for their words.
When are you all going to stand up for our troops and demand accountability from American contractors that are literally ROBBING America, while directly hampering our attempts to achieve victory abroad?
For AEY, the Army finally suspended their contract, but it took a year of garbage ammunition. This type of corruption is pervasive and these contractors are committing treason.
Time to end the madness. How can we expect our troops to win when American companies won't even do what we've contracted them to do?
Truly sickening.
LINK
I was going to post this one...
March 27, 2008 - 10:02 ET by sarcasmoUnder the title "I smell corruption."
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, It's insane. For
March 27, 2008 - 10:05 ET by LeonSarc,
It's insane.
For as much as the Newsbusters claim to be patriots and claim to support the war effort, they don't really seem to care about American companies harming our troops.
Truly baffling. BD even goes so far as to apologize for these companies and he's supposed to be working for the war effort.
I can't speak for anyone else
March 27, 2008 - 10:12 ET by sarcasmoBut when I see this stuff I think "death penalty."
And under an Orwellian-enough banking system to get Elliot Spitzer, they can damn sure track this corruption down IF they want to pronto, IMO. But I think they've wasted law enforcement resources elsewhere. I believe this because I'm currently financing a lawyer-welfare program due to obese government's attack on honest money, which isn't a problem for either the political left or the right, it seems...(And once again, "honest money" means precious metals, and for the nonce I'm still in that business, as if my opinions on the Constitution would somehow change one iota were my employer to change!)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
»→ You're right sarc
March 27, 2008 - 10:29 ET by Cool ArrowAnd I think some patriot out there in Florida should lead an effort to run that company completely out of the State.
But don't send the SOB's to Texas.
♣ a seal
If I were involved, as I said...
March 27, 2008 - 10:35 ET by sarcasmoIt would probably be very ugly. The misallocation of law enforcement and judicial resources I've personally experienced in the fight for honest money as an alternative literally rivals the misallocations of the tax and spend drug war. This kind of outrage only makes me madder.
And the problem's not the company -- it's individuals I suspect of political corruption financed treason. Since they therefore happen to be individuals I'd want hung by the neck until dead, I'm the wrong FL patriot for the job...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Leon, to put it
March 27, 2008 - 10:12 ET by JasonCLeon, to put it mathematically:
Patriotism < Free Market Capitalism
You can't embrace the former without embracing the latter.
But apparently, you can privilege the latter at the expense of the former.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I doubt the free market
March 27, 2008 - 10:15 ET by sarcasmoHad ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the awarding of this particular contract, hence my smelling of corruption. A formally advertised sealed bid (free market) system (and no, antique ammo's not "secret") would have solved this problem before it ever became a scandal, IMO.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
My post was simply a
March 27, 2008 - 10:23 ET by JasonCMy post was simply a facetious reply to Leon's remark about apologism.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Understood, but
March 27, 2008 - 10:31 ET by sarcasmoThe free market gets so much crap from the news media by being conflated with criminality & corruption that I figured it was important to make the point explicitly. But it's stuff like this that makes me want the death penalty, not that there's a chance of it in this case, sadly...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
»→ sarc
March 27, 2008 - 10:41 ET by Cool ArrowIt would be nice to know if there are specific Representatives/Senators who were instrumental in awarding this contract?
♣ a seal
Give me the Orwellian banking powers that got Spitzer
March 27, 2008 - 10:50 ET by sarcasmoUntil mid-day Monday or so, along with the missallocated LE/legal resources I keep referencing (easy, they won't even be missed because the TV media's TOTALLY ignoring some inconvenient-looking cases due to their antilibertarian bias) and I'd bet I could piece together a pretty good trail back to politics. Tracking this much money is NOT rocket science...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, People like to
March 27, 2008 - 10:26 ET by LeonSarc,
People like to pretend it was a free market move.
It was not the free market
March 27, 2008 - 11:42 ET by BDIt was not the free market in action? The Govt let a contract, it was fulfilled by the company in question.
We have a saying. "Remember, your Rifle was manufactured by the lowest bidder."
Do you want the government to run healthcare or insurance? hahahahahahahah!!!!
Jason, Great post. What
March 27, 2008 - 10:25 ET by LeonJason,
Great post.
What you describe is a terrifying state of affairs.
It's just so shocking that this type of corruption happens right in front of our faces and, it's not even that some people don't care about it, a sizable portion of people (esp. here) go out of their way to defend it.
I just don't get it. How can you support the troops while allowing American companies to directly impede the war effort?
For your
March 27, 2008 - 11:39 ET by BDFor your knowledge....
When I was a mortar Platoon leader in the mid- 1980's, my 4.2 Inch (107mm) mortars I was prepared to go to war with were manufactured in 1952 by Whirlpool Corporation and the ammunition I regularly fired for 60mm sub-caliber training dated from war stocks for the same period.
My Go to war ammuntion ammuntion was not significantly "Fresher" until Ronald Reagan put the 4.2Inch A2 round into the inventory in 1988, even so, they did not have signicant stocks of them until the 90's when they were delivered.
Why was I firing such aged ammunition that had such a huge rate of failures? Jimmy Carter and the Democratically controlled House of Representativesof the 1970's!!!!
Do I approve of aging ammuntion? No.
Happy??????
BD, my first M-16 was made
March 27, 2008 - 11:59 ET by bassndudeBD, my first M-16 was made by Mattel. I traded later for the Car-15, which was made by Colt. And made me feel better.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
That's
March 27, 2008 - 12:08 ET by sarcasmoInteresting....
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Oh Sarc, Be
March 27, 2008 - 12:11 ET by LeonOh Sarc,
Be Nice.
It's been a tough couple of weeks for Bass around here!
Just pushin' a few buttons...
March 27, 2008 - 12:15 ET by sarcasmoWith that inconvenient "truth" thingy courtesy of Snopes...Folks here need to understand that I can give as well as I take. :) At least.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, Bass has been
March 27, 2008 - 12:28 ET by LeonSarc,
Bass has been eating his foot a lot over the past month.
Says non-Americans shouldn't have opinions on America, yet his best Newsbusters buddy Jack Bauer is a non-American.
Claimed the intellectual who argued Moses was high was probably a hippie that was born in America and moved to Israel later in life. Meanwhile, a simple google search would have shown him the professor was born, raised, and went to university in Israel.
Now he's claiming he used a gun made by Mattel, when you've proven that's a myth.
It's been a sad time for him. Can't seem to get it right.
Leon, I dident say they
March 27, 2008 - 12:34 ET by bassndudeLeon, I dident say they shouldn't have opinions, I said they have no business trying to influence our elections.
I said the professor was "more than likely a hippie" which, i still think he is.
And the first m-16 I ever had was stamped, "Made by Mattel" right on the magizine weld. And if you say Mattel didn't make a M-16, I will call you either, ignorant, stupid or a lier. Take your pick.
You really cant get anything right, can you?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
So you officially dispute Snopes?
March 27, 2008 - 12:46 ET by sarcasmoWow. Fascinating...Hope you've got some proof.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
sarc
March 27, 2008 - 15:26 ET by bassndudeThe caption in your own link sayes that the Mattel company logo was embossed on the hand grip. Like it or not. Right there by the magazine well was the hand grip.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Read on....
March 27, 2008 - 15:33 ET by sarcasmoThat's what they're debunking (but read our version here, it's more interesting). Just don't go to the photoshop link first. :)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Bass, 1) You also said
March 27, 2008 - 12:58 ET by LeonBass,
1) You also said he was born in America then moved to Israel, when in fact, it was exactly the opposite
2) So your buddy Jack shouldn't be sharing his opinion on this site
3) You are challenging snopes? Good luck with all that. You're wrong. Just admit it.
Said he "probably was born
March 27, 2008 - 13:04 ET by bassndudeSaid he "probably was born in the US". Did not state it as a fact.
As I said, opinions are fine, just dont try to influence the elections.
Are you saying my M-16 wasent stamped "Mattel"?
Reciver group was colt, but it was stamped "Mattel".
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
No, see Snopes.
March 27, 2008 - 13:06 ET by sarcasmoYou are factually wrong, regardless of what you think you recall. I'm slowly getting used to senior moments, too, so don't feel bad, but Snopes is just plain historically right in this instance...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Not to but in but,
March 27, 2008 - 14:21 ET by general companyYour link says from Snopes says that the hand grip was made by Mattel with their logo. Very first paragraph in caption even.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Read on to the toy section...
March 27, 2008 - 14:25 ET by sarcasmoParagraph 1's what they're debunking, Mattel only made Mattel's handgrip.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
I understand that, just
March 27, 2008 - 14:42 ET by general companyI understand that, just saying that the gun in question may have very well had Mattel stamped on it, regardless of who the "true" manufacturer was
edit: or are you saying the caption is the example? I wonder then from where did it originate then?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
According to them
March 27, 2008 - 14:50 ET by sarcasmoIt's "[Morgan and Tucker, 1987]". And I'l ask you, too. Have you ever seen a subcontractor's name stamped on the visible exterior parts of any shotgun, rifle, or pistol? (I'm sure it's probably happened, but I've never seen it!)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Cant say that I ever paid
March 27, 2008 - 15:15 ET by general companyCant say that I ever paid that much attention to those things. I also figured that it was noticed during disassembly. Was reading a forum on this topic, seems most folks who recall seeing the logo served in the 80's. Kinda odd since the gun was tabbed during Vietnam. But I honestly don't know much about it, just though I had found something overlooked on Snopes, reading the forums, I wasnt the only one. "Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Hmmm. The '80s...
March 27, 2008 - 15:43 ET by sarcasmoRight when Photoshop was coming out, IIRC! ;)
One good, expert-&-idiot filled place to ask about this issue would be Tom Bowers' Subguns.com or similar discussion sites. Also, the oft reviled Wikipedia has a pretty extensive history, which doesn't mention the word "Mattel."
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
sarc
March 27, 2008 - 15:20 ET by bassndudeEvidently, yes. Just because you have never seen it, that dont mean it hasn't happned in the past.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Sarc, I am only saying, my
March 27, 2008 - 14:28 ET by bassndudeSarc, I am only saying, my first M-16 had "Mattel" stamped on it. I know Clot made the reciver group, but that dosn't negate the fact that it was stamped "Mattel".
I am getting acustom to senior moments, tho. Bummer:-(
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Legally owned M16s exist (not many, thanks "FOPA" '86!)
March 27, 2008 - 14:46 ET by sarcasmoI'm sure none are so stamped, unless it's photoshop. If one did exist, it would be instantly famous in the NFA community (a tiny and esoteric subset of the firearms community, which because it's small & not-PC just got tossed under the bus in the Supreme Court).
I think you may be experiencing a conversation induced senior moment in this case. Chances are good that the handgrip was made by whatever molding/plastics subcontractor was closest to Armalite at the time. Normal practice would be to either not stamp it (most likely) or maybe stamp the name of the actual contractor. Think about it...Guns then & now were & are made by a whole motley bunch of subcontractors. How many subcontractors' names have you ever seen stamped on other guns, like pistols or shotguns? For me, at least, it's 0.
If the legend were true, we'd also probably see ancient examples on old AR-15s from that era, and we don't. Might you be able to ask a buddy about this? Snopes has been wrong before, but I truly doubt it in this case, in part because I've personally looked at various examples of Colt & Armalite guns from the era quite closely in the past. Although I wasn't looking for the word "Mattel" at the time, I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed it and remembered.
JMR
PS Check out the toy-ad -- talk about a lawsuit-free era!
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Then there is this
March 27, 2008 - 15:21 ET by general companyhttp://tinypic.com/vra6qg.jpg
Taken from here
http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=6126 "
Is this the toy?
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Ok, think about it...
March 27, 2008 - 15:30 ET by sarcasmoThe alleged "Mattel" is 'stamped' on the metal parts of the pic of a rifle, and now there purports to be a firearms division of the toy company?? This is why I mentioned photoshop, I've seen this one. It's a joke, but come to think of it, this may have played with some peoples' heads too. Bass & I are both older than photoshop, so we both recall the day when pictures didn't lie.
But think about it. Imagine you are Colt/Armalite in the early '60s making full auto rifles for the US government. Are you really going to let a well known plastic toy company stamp that crap on your stuff, even if they're the actual subcontractor? And suddenly the plastic toy company is stamping metal, not plastic?
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
That general company, must
March 27, 2008 - 15:44 ET by bassndudeThat general company, must have been my gun. The only one ever made, I guess. Whoed a thunk it would still be around.
Dosn't matter at all to me who sayes what. I know what I had and was intimate with it for all of 3 months. Traded up to the CAR-15. Didn't shoot as far, but in the jungle, it shot far enough. Most of the time.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I give up, but with one question
March 27, 2008 - 15:48 ET by sarcasmoHow is that the handgrip??
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
It's not, just saw it and
March 27, 2008 - 16:11 ET by general companyIt's not, just saw it and thought it might add a little to the conversation? Is it actually an M-16? When I first saw it I thought that maybe Mattel actually had in the past made a gun thus confusing everyone. If it is PS it is a real good job considering my results.
Just went out to the truck to look closely at my SW sure enough no other label on it. Oddly many manufactors of things such as telephones, copiers, computers and so on that allow their subcomponents to be labeled? Why not guns?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
General, yes it is an M-16.
March 27, 2008 - 16:25 ET by bassndudeGeneral, yes it is an M-16. That one in that pic is not the toy. The give a way is the "mattel firearms division".
You will not find a toy marked with that. Here is the same picture purchased by a collector.
http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37805
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, no it's not, but you must be feeling for Hillary by now...
March 27, 2008 - 21:25 ET by sarcasmoWith those sniper-memories she's been having! Your own link busts the Photoshop job rifle as a Photoshop job.
Again, imagine yourself as a Colt/Armalite era rifle manufacturing executive selling to the US military. Would you really let a subcontractor (that famously makes toys, not real guns!) do this? I don't think so. And not only does Wikipedia's M16 entry not-mention the word "Mattel," a google search for the term "mattel firearms division" strangely returns 0 documents. It's almost as if Mattel's a toy company and has no firearms division at all, except in Photoshop-land. :)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
"Leon, I dident say they
March 27, 2008 - 12:57 ET by RESTLESS 1"Leon, I dident say they shouldn't have opinions, I said they have no business trying to influence our elections."
Leon, in other words, their opinion doesn't matter.
BD, Finally! You're
March 27, 2008 - 12:01 ET by LeonBD,
Finally! You're talking some sense. Although your post is not nearly outraged enough and you started out by trying to excuse the company based on your experience.
Only a professional propagandist like yourself would reply to a story like this by claiming you used old ammo, so it's not really that bad. Ha. Nice. Whoever is paying your salary to spread disinformation and apologize for all things administration is certainly getting every bang for their buck.
But yes, I am happy that you've finally admitted that something an American contractor has done is wrong. It's amazing it took this long.
Leon, you call a loyal
March 27, 2008 - 12:16 ET by bassndudeLeon, you call a loyal member of the active Military, a propagandist??? One that has served multiple combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lived with death around the next corner, and served our country. YOU?? Dont get me started on your lack of courage to face the call of your country. Seems to me that the apple fell along way from the tree, in your case.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, Yes, BD is a
March 27, 2008 - 12:20 ET by LeonBass,
Yes, BD is a propagandist. That is his number one job.
I fail to see how his prior service has any impact on his current job as a propagandist. Past service in no way excuses present behavior, as you've all made painfully clear through your treatment of vets you dislike (i.e. Kerry, Murtha, Patrick Murphy, etc.)
He consistently apologizes for massive corruption for the sole purpose of defending the Bush Admin. Even in the face of overwhelming, concrete evidences.
"Yes, BD is a
March 27, 2008 - 12:40 ET by Clear thinker"Yes, BD is a propagandist."
Leon, are you really that stupid? It seems that every day you try to outdo yourself from the day before. Well, it ain't working.
I will believe BD is a propogandist when you say you are in love with Ann Coulter.
"Abstain from McCain"
Outraged enough????? You
March 27, 2008 - 12:28 ET by BDOutraged enough?????
You must be new to the subject of national defense.
I was amused to be eating C-rats in 1986 that were canned in 1968 or before and still had cigarettes in the comfort pack.
I was concerned when I went to Desert Storm carrying an M-16 straight, not an A or A-1. No forward assist or anything (Bass will get the implication) but I was a staff pogue and did not have to worry. They offered me a Colt .45, but advised me there was shortage of ammunition for them in theater hence my acceptance of the 22 year old rifle right out of the cardboard box from warstocks at CRC.
You gotta get up to speed in order to be "Outraged." You aint there yet.
BD, I fail to see what
March 27, 2008 - 12:30 ET by LeonBD,
I fail to see what your personal story from 20 years ago has to do with AEY's current, pervasive corruption.
They are screwing our troops and our allies. They are scum bags and should be charged with treason against the US government. They have actively worked to hurt our war effort.
And you reply with a story about your personal experience in 1986. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
BD's personal experiences
March 27, 2008 - 15:00 ET by Roger the ShrubberBD's personal experiences are immaterial and off-base, but Leon's vast experience working with contractors makes him an unimpeachable source, and the final word. I am sure BD's experiences would hold more water, if only they fell in line with Leon's paradigm. Try to work on that, okay, BD?
I gotta say, that either
March 27, 2008 - 15:16 ET by BDI gotta say, that either Leon is not presenting his thesis statement adequately, or he is simply changing his thesis statements to suit the attacks.
To please him, I guess I will just have to walk into "the firesack" that his argument positions in front of me.
Leon: From reading your
March 27, 2008 - 15:14 ET by BDLeon:
From reading your posting of this morning, I assumed the thesis statement presented in your argument was that AEY corporation had defrauded the US government, and that this was either somehow encouraged by the DOD or the administration.
If you were simply angry that AEY had attempted to defraud and had been successfully caught by the US Army COR, then the argument is immaterial. A bad action had been caught by competant authority and was in the process of being punished.
But in reading your postings previous to this, I must assume you believe that these bad actions were indeed encouraged.
Either way, my postings shed light on the fact that such activity has occurred previous to this and the actual crux of the issue (Providing old, aging, or inadequate equipment) is not simply a failure of contracted companies, but indeed more examples can be traced back to liberal government shortchanging the DOD rather than a few examples of greedy contractors.
But have either argument, I am back to my fried rice.
BD, I never said these
March 27, 2008 - 15:52 ET by LeonBD,
I never said these actions were encouraged (although I KBR's garbage work hasn't been discouraged)
My only point is that American companies are screwing our troops and killing our war effort.
We haven't demanded accountability from many of them, but we need to start doing it more. This is an example where finally accountability might actually be demanded. It's a good sign.
My outrage was simply over the fact that these guys could operate like this. It's treasonous.
Do you mean you have an
March 27, 2008 - 16:02 ET by BDDo you mean you have an issue with KBR in a trash collection issue, or that their work has been substandard? I have no idea if they have a contract dealing with trash collection, probably do an dif that is the case they are doing a fine job since the last time I was at Camp Victory it was tidy.
If you only point is that contractors occasionally misbehave, I will acknowledge this, but it is not indicative of all, most, or even many.
Reference it killing our war effort, I see no evidence of that. How many patrols were the Afghanis NOT able to conduct due to the suppply status of their arms? None that I have heard of.
So while the contractor might be doing something that I disagree with and might even be unethical, I still see no evidence that it has "Killed our war effort."
We have not demanded accountability from our contractors? I see no evidence of that as well. In fact, it was the Army who uncovered this issue. COR's are busy folks and are a shortage (But aren't all personnel in the military stretching back to, yes, you guessed it, WJC's administration and his cuts to personnel.)
If your outrage is against this contractor for what you term "Treason" shouldn't we likewise hold some legislators/executive branch personnel in similar contempt? After all, budget cuts in the 90's caused MORE damage.
Time to put down the BB...
BD, 1) Lame joke.
March 27, 2008 - 17:42 ET by LeonBD,
1) Lame joke. Their work is substandard, or do you think it's ok for our soldiers to be electrocuted to death while showering?
2) I have no idea how many Afghani patrols were not able to conduct patrols. That's immaterial to whether or not it's ethical/fair/successfully fulfilling contract requirements.
3) There has been story after story of contractors hampering the war effort. Making life more dangerous for our troops. Wasting tax payers money. You act as if these are isolated incidents. They aren't. This is pervasive abuse and corruption that's been going on since we invaded Iraq. Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
4) There is ample evidence of us not demanding accountability. Again, we hear constantly about poor work or crappy materials and nothing ever happens. Nobody's ever punished. No contracts are ever canceled.
5) I said that this story is the first time I've seen any accountability. That's why I said it's about time. You can't use this one to try to prove that we are holding these guys accountable. IT's the first time in 5 years!
6) Your jab at the end is irrelevant to contractor waste and corruption.
1) Lame joke. Their
March 27, 2008 - 18:52 ET by BD1) Lame joke. Their work is substandard, or do you think it's ok for our soldiers to be electrocuted to death while showering?
In both of my tours in Iraq, I never saw anyone electrocuted. However, I did eat well at the KBR messhalls, Had all the fuel I needed thanks to the KBR convoys, Eventually was able to work out in the KBR provided gyms, was able to pick up PX material as I desired, and lived in airconditioned quarters, used the internet as much as possible, while having plenty of ammunition for my unit as required.
I guess you could say this is the first war in which all classes of supply were more than adequately provided and to the extent they are. This is due to USTRANSCOM and its contractors from KBR/halliburton amongst others.
If you had lived there for even a few days you would not bad mouth those who run the roads to provide such amenities.
2) I have no idea how many Afghani patrols were not able to conduct patrols. That's immaterial to whether or not it's ethical/fair/successfully fulfilling contract requirements.
You stated that failing contractors such as AEY were costing us the war. I seek proof. The actions are bad, and even unseemly, however I see no evidence that they are costing the war as you stated originally.
3) There has been story after story of contractors hampering the war effort. Making life more dangerous for our troops. Wasting tax payers money. You act as if these are isolated incidents. They aren't. This is pervasive abuse and corruption that's been going on since we invaded Iraq. Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
See first answer for reply. All logistics flow in country is made possible largely because of contractors willing to provide the service in a dangerous environment. Likewise you will be surprised at the amount of maintenance of vehciles, buidlings, Electronics, and everything else that is performed by systems contractors who sit with us in the bunkers as we wait for the all clear following a rocket attack.
The US military largely contracted much of this out starting int he bad old days of the 90's when our personnel level was slashed. It became a question of "You gotta lose somebody, do you want to lose the unit medic, or the Signal Systems Repair Tech who can be contracted out?"
I would LOVE to have all of the slots in theater being taken up by real uniform wearing soldiers, but that is not possible since we no longer have a 1.2 million man army.
So, yes the events are isolated when compared to the situation.
Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
God Bless em, I wish I didn't have to pay Social Security since I will never receive it. Taking a warm coat off someone elses back will not make my bare one any warmer.
4) There is ample evidence of us not demanding accountability. Again, we hear constantly about poor work or crappy materials and nothing ever happens. Nobody's ever punished. No contracts are ever canceled.
Really, and you know this how? The only contract violations you know of are the ones picked up by the US Contracting Officers, CID, or similar organizations providing just such accountability.
6) Your jab at the end is irrelevant to contractor waste and corruption.
Why?
This guy is a pro. Feign
March 27, 2008 - 18:58 ET by LeonThis guy is a pro.
Feign ignorance.
Defend KBR.
Blame Clinton.
Pretend it's fair for some to pay social security while others don't.
End with a question.
Cash paycheck.
Thanks for the compliment,
March 27, 2008 - 19:07 ET by BDThanks for the compliment, I take it that you concede? Years of training in various logics.
You should try some.
Regarding you constant assertion that I am a paid propagandist, one can never seem to satisfy the Conspiros that:
So I shall not bother, but will relegate you to the ranks of such Conspiros.
BD, There's simply no
March 27, 2008 - 19:13 ET by LeonBD,
There's simply no point. You ignore the realities
and read me the brochure. What you type has no substance.
It's too textbook.
Reading your post was literally like
reading KBR's website. It's truly incredible. I would hire
you any day. Like I said, you're a pro.
Put me in whatever group you want. I know a salesman when I see one.
Okay, I see
March 27, 2008 - 19:21 ET by BDOkay, I see now.
Contractors = Corporate guys = Bad.
Is that simple enough to encapsulate your thesis?
Wrong BD, Bad Contactors
March 27, 2008 - 19:27 ET by LeonWrong BD,
Bad Contactors = Bad for America. Bad for our soldiers. Bad for our tax dollars. Bad for everyone.
It's a very simple
statement. There's no grand sweeping message. It's
demanding quality control. It's demanding respect in one's
work. It's simpy demanding getting what you pay for.
The
waste is unreal. Right in front of faces. In many instances in
Iraq. We've had millions of dollars in CASH disappear. Do
you know how voluminous that much cash is? How does it just disappear? Unaccounted for? What???
It's
out of control. If any contractor working in America did ONE of
the things we read about regularly in Iraq, they would never work
again.
So, what is new in the fact
March 28, 2008 - 11:13 ET by BDSo, what is new in the fact that there is occasional corruption during wartime in a combat theater? It has occurred since the Revolutionary War when New York merchants sold rotting fish to the army encamped in New Jersey. Wanna talk about uniforms manufactured out of felt and sold to the Union Army?
If these particular instances in this war is what gets you upset, then stand at the back of the line since the rest of us realize that prosecuting wastefulness and graft in war is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
If you really wanna talk about helping the army, then as I have said before, GO AFTER THE CULPRITS IN CONGRESS WHO SHAFTED US FOR 20 years.
Bill Clinton used to claim that he had trimmed 250,000 federal government jobs in an effort to do away with waste. What he did not say was all 250,000 of them came from DOD and DOD associated organizations. Doesnt THAT fill you with rage?
Leon?
March 28, 2008 - 16:29 ET by BDLeon?
double post
March 28, 2008 - 16:30 ET by BDdouble post
Chill out Leon
March 27, 2008 - 19:25 ET by acumenWhy don't you give it a rest Leon? Until you have walked a mile in Bravo Delta's boots you have no right to question his personal experiences in the ME. Go start your annoying crap with someone else on NB but leave our military men and women alone. They have had more than enough to put up with from terrorists, they certainly don't need this garbage from fellow Americans.
Acumen, I'm not
March 27, 2008 - 19:29 ET by LeonAcumen,
I'm not questioning his life or his accomplishments, or even who he is as a person.
I just don't trust his motivations. That's all.
Furthermore, you'd be wise to remember we're all anonymous around here.
C'mon Leon
March 27, 2008 - 19:44 ET by acumenYou are most certainly questioning Bravo Delta's first-hand experiences in Iraq when you have none.
BD has been posting since NB started and has offered ample proof to back up his claims. Don't take my word for it....go back to the archives. In that time his motivation has always been to provide a fair and accurate assessment of the situation in Iraq (the good, the bad and the ugly) regardless of public opinion....once again....check the archives.
I understand his motivation to give a fair assessment of the civilian (and uniformed) support personel in the war. They have made his life better over there. It's called gratitude. Why can't you follow that lead and make our military people's life a little better over here? What would that cost you?
Stop the paranoia and start supporting people that risk it all for you and me. They deserve at least that.
No Acumen, BD's personal
March 27, 2008 - 19:51 ET by LeonNo Acumen,
BD's personal experiences in no way excuse the abuse of our country and our troops by one of OUR OWN contractor's.
Then let it go dude
March 27, 2008 - 19:59 ET by acumenThen quit hassling him. That's all...
Acumen, I'll do that when
March 27, 2008 - 20:04 ET by LeonAcumen,
I'll do that when acknowledges the criminal behavior of KBR.
Ever occur to you that
March 27, 2008 - 20:23 ET by general companyEver occur to you that he may not see it that way. He has benefited by some maybe even a lot of the good work they do. He even gave some very solid examples of why he feels that way. You know the way no one should dare talk poorly of your Brother even though you are upset with him?
Why would any notice from him be important to you?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
GC, Whether or not he
March 27, 2008 - 20:31 ET by LeonGC,
Whether or not he sees it that way has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
He has access to the same information that we do.
Really? I would say I
March 28, 2008 - 11:30 ET by BDReally? I would say I have MORE information than you do. I , after all was saved the labor of making breakfast /lunch/dinner in my hootch for those years I was deployed while I should have been working or sleeping.
I was saved the labor of filling sandbags while I should have been doing analysis.
I was saved from having to farm out my analysts on taskings to run road convoys to bring fuel for M1/M2/AH-64's to the combat area.
I was aved from having to drop everything and trouble shoot the computer network because my reports were hung up on a server someplace.
Were you?
Leon?
March 28, 2008 - 16:31 ET by BDLeon?
I will acknowledge criminal
March 28, 2008 - 11:26 ET by BDI will acknowledge criminal behavior when I observe it. What I have observed of KBR has been remarkably positive.
Making a profit is not criminal no matter how much you aparently wish it to be.
How about abuse and misconduct of our CONGRESS!
March 27, 2008 - 21:13 ET by PawpawNHow about abuse and misconduct of our CONGRESS! Do you not agree that they have hampered the effort, that they have put our soldiers in jeopardy and harm's way? Please answer.
Vielen danke for the kind
March 28, 2008 - 11:24 ET by BDVielen danke for the kind words....