For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: antiwar Democrats were paid by Saddam to visit Iraq in October 2002 (paragraph breaks removed):
Saddam Hussein's intelligence agency secretly financed a trip to Iraq for three U.S. lawmakers during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion, federal prosecutors said Wednesday. The three anti-war Democrats made the trip in October 2002, while the Bush administration was trying to persuade Congress to authorize military action against Iraq. While traveling, they called for a diplomatic solution...The lawmakers are not named in the indictment but the dates correspond to a trip by Democratic Reps. Jim McDermott of Washington, David Bonior of Michigan and Mike Thompson of California.
What do you think about this nonsense? How much press coverage do you expect this will get? What kind of penalities will these three receive?



















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Comments Policy
»→ I don't know about you
March 27, 2008 - 08:52 ET by Cool ArrowBut this Obama guy is giving a truly Hamiltonian speech on the economy right now.
I think First graders should hear this speech.
♣ a seal
Another American Company Hurting America
March 27, 2008 - 08:52 ET by LeonSeriously, this is getting out of control.
How long are we going to allow American contractors to directly harm our war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan? When are we going to demand accountability for this garbage? At what point does flagrantly corrupt and inefficient work become treasonous?
We all know about KBR, but today we learn of some new scum bags.
AEY Inc. $300 million dollage federal contract. They are the main supplier of munitions to Afghanistan's army and police force.
So what do they do with this massive contract? They cut corners to increas their profitability at the EXPENSE of our war effort in Afghanistan.
Since winning the contract last January, "the company has provided ammunition that is more than 40 years old and in decomposing packaging, according to an examination of the munitions by The New York Times and interviews with American and Afghan officials. Much of the ammunition comes from the aging stockpiles of the old Communist bloc, including stockpiles that the State Department and NATO have determined to be unreliable and obsolete, and have spent millions of dollars to have destroyed."
Okay so their providing obsolete munitions for $300 million dollars. Great. But to make matters worse:
"In purchasing munitions, the contractor has also worked with middlemen and a shell company on a federal list of entities suspected of illegal arms trafficking.
Moreover, tens of millions of the rifle and machine-gun cartridges were manufactured in China, making their procurement a possible violation of American law. The company’s president, Efraim E. Diveroli, was also secretly recorded in a conversation that suggested corruption in his company’s purchase of more than 100 million aging rounds in Albania, according to audio files of the conversation."
There's been a lot of talk around here about prominent liberals in America hurting the war effort and emboldening our enemies with their rhetoric. Call after call has been made, demanding accountability for their words.
When are you all going to stand up for our troops and demand accountability from American contractors that are literally ROBBING America, while directly hampering our attempts to achieve victory abroad?
For AEY, the Army finally suspended their contract, but it took a year of garbage ammunition. This type of corruption is pervasive and these contractors are committing treason.
Time to end the madness. How can we expect our troops to win when American companies won't even do what we've contracted them to do?
Truly sickening.
LINK
I was going to post this one...
March 27, 2008 - 09:02 ET by sarcasmoUnder the title "I smell corruption."
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, It's insane. For
March 27, 2008 - 09:05 ET by LeonSarc,
It's insane.
For as much as the Newsbusters claim to be patriots and claim to support the war effort, they don't really seem to care about American companies harming our troops.
Truly baffling. BD even goes so far as to apologize for these companies and he's supposed to be working for the war effort.
I can't speak for anyone else
March 27, 2008 - 09:12 ET by sarcasmoBut when I see this stuff I think "death penalty."
And under an Orwellian-enough banking system to get Elliot Spitzer, they can damn sure track this corruption down IF they want to pronto, IMO. But I think they've wasted law enforcement resources elsewhere. I believe this because I'm currently financing a lawyer-welfare program due to obese government's attack on honest money, which isn't a problem for either the political left or the right, it seems...(And once again, "honest money" means precious metals, and for the nonce I'm still in that business, as if my opinions on the Constitution would somehow change one iota were my employer to change!)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
»→ You're right sarc
March 27, 2008 - 09:29 ET by Cool ArrowAnd I think some patriot out there in Florida should lead an effort to run that company completely out of the State.
But don't send the SOB's to Texas.
♣ a seal
If I were involved, as I said...
March 27, 2008 - 09:35 ET by sarcasmoIt would probably be very ugly. The misallocation of law enforcement and judicial resources I've personally experienced in the fight for honest money as an alternative literally rivals the misallocations of the tax and spend drug war. This kind of outrage only makes me madder.
And the problem's not the company -- it's individuals I suspect of political corruption financed treason. Since they therefore happen to be individuals I'd want hung by the neck until dead, I'm the wrong FL patriot for the job...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Leon, to put it
March 27, 2008 - 09:12 ET by JasonCLeon, to put it mathematically:
Patriotism < Free Market Capitalism
You can't embrace the former without embracing the latter.
But apparently, you can privilege the latter at the expense of the former.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I doubt the free market
March 27, 2008 - 09:15 ET by sarcasmoHad ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the awarding of this particular contract, hence my smelling of corruption. A formally advertised sealed bid (free market) system (and no, antique ammo's not "secret") would have solved this problem before it ever became a scandal, IMO.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
My post was simply a
March 27, 2008 - 09:23 ET by JasonCMy post was simply a facetious reply to Leon's remark about apologism.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Understood, but
March 27, 2008 - 09:31 ET by sarcasmoThe free market gets so much crap from the news media by being conflated with criminality & corruption that I figured it was important to make the point explicitly. But it's stuff like this that makes me want the death penalty, not that there's a chance of it in this case, sadly...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
»→ sarc
March 27, 2008 - 09:41 ET by Cool ArrowIt would be nice to know if there are specific Representatives/Senators who were instrumental in awarding this contract?
♣ a seal
Give me the Orwellian banking powers that got Spitzer
March 27, 2008 - 09:50 ET by sarcasmoUntil mid-day Monday or so, along with the missallocated LE/legal resources I keep referencing (easy, they won't even be missed because the TV media's TOTALLY ignoring some inconvenient-looking cases due to their antilibertarian bias) and I'd bet I could piece together a pretty good trail back to politics. Tracking this much money is NOT rocket science...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, People like to
March 27, 2008 - 09:26 ET by LeonSarc,
People like to pretend it was a free market move.
It was not the free market
March 27, 2008 - 10:42 ET by BDIt was not the free market in action? The Govt let a contract, it was fulfilled by the company in question.
We have a saying. "Remember, your Rifle was manufactured by the lowest bidder."
Do you want the government to run healthcare or insurance? hahahahahahahah!!!!
Jason, Great post. What
March 27, 2008 - 09:25 ET by LeonJason,
Great post.
What you describe is a terrifying state of affairs.
It's just so shocking that this type of corruption happens right in front of our faces and, it's not even that some people don't care about it, a sizable portion of people (esp. here) go out of their way to defend it.
I just don't get it. How can you support the troops while allowing American companies to directly impede the war effort?
For your
March 27, 2008 - 10:39 ET by BDFor your knowledge....
When I was a mortar Platoon leader in the mid- 1980's, my 4.2 Inch (107mm) mortars I was prepared to go to war with were manufactured in 1952 by Whirlpool Corporation and the ammunition I regularly fired for 60mm sub-caliber training dated from war stocks for the same period.
My Go to war ammuntion ammuntion was not significantly "Fresher" until Ronald Reagan put the 4.2Inch A2 round into the inventory in 1988, even so, they did not have signicant stocks of them until the 90's when they were delivered.
Why was I firing such aged ammunition that had such a huge rate of failures? Jimmy Carter and the Democratically controlled House of Representativesof the 1970's!!!!
Do I approve of aging ammuntion? No.
Happy??????
BD, my first M-16 was made
March 27, 2008 - 10:59 ET by bassndudeBD, my first M-16 was made by Mattel. I traded later for the Car-15, which was made by Colt. And made me feel better.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
That's
March 27, 2008 - 11:08 ET by sarcasmoInteresting....
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Oh Sarc, Be
March 27, 2008 - 11:11 ET by LeonOh Sarc,
Be Nice.
It's been a tough couple of weeks for Bass around here!
Just pushin' a few buttons...
March 27, 2008 - 11:15 ET by sarcasmoWith that inconvenient "truth" thingy courtesy of Snopes...Folks here need to understand that I can give as well as I take. :) At least.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, Bass has been
March 27, 2008 - 11:28 ET by LeonSarc,
Bass has been eating his foot a lot over the past month.
Says non-Americans shouldn't have opinions on America, yet his best Newsbusters buddy Jack Bauer is a non-American.
Claimed the intellectual who argued Moses was high was probably a hippie that was born in America and moved to Israel later in life. Meanwhile, a simple google search would have shown him the professor was born, raised, and went to university in Israel.
Now he's claiming he used a gun made by Mattel, when you've proven that's a myth.
It's been a sad time for him. Can't seem to get it right.
Leon, I dident say they
March 27, 2008 - 11:34 ET by bassndudeLeon, I dident say they shouldn't have opinions, I said they have no business trying to influence our elections.
I said the professor was "more than likely a hippie" which, i still think he is.
And the first m-16 I ever had was stamped, "Made by Mattel" right on the magizine weld. And if you say Mattel didn't make a M-16, I will call you either, ignorant, stupid or a lier. Take your pick.
You really cant get anything right, can you?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
So you officially dispute Snopes?
March 27, 2008 - 11:46 ET by sarcasmoWow. Fascinating...Hope you've got some proof.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
sarc
March 27, 2008 - 14:26 ET by bassndudeThe caption in your own link sayes that the Mattel company logo was embossed on the hand grip. Like it or not. Right there by the magazine well was the hand grip.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Read on....
March 27, 2008 - 14:33 ET by sarcasmoThat's what they're debunking (but read our version here, it's more interesting). Just don't go to the photoshop link first. :)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Bass, 1) You also said
March 27, 2008 - 11:58 ET by LeonBass,
1) You also said he was born in America then moved to Israel, when in fact, it was exactly the opposite
2) So your buddy Jack shouldn't be sharing his opinion on this site
3) You are challenging snopes? Good luck with all that. You're wrong. Just admit it.
Said he "probably was born
March 27, 2008 - 12:04 ET by bassndudeSaid he "probably was born in the US". Did not state it as a fact.
As I said, opinions are fine, just dont try to influence the elections.
Are you saying my M-16 wasent stamped "Mattel"?
Reciver group was colt, but it was stamped "Mattel".
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
No, see Snopes.
March 27, 2008 - 12:06 ET by sarcasmoYou are factually wrong, regardless of what you think you recall. I'm slowly getting used to senior moments, too, so don't feel bad, but Snopes is just plain historically right in this instance...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Not to but in but,
March 27, 2008 - 13:21 ET by general companyYour link says from Snopes says that the hand grip was made by Mattel with their logo. Very first paragraph in caption even.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Read on to the toy section...
March 27, 2008 - 13:25 ET by sarcasmoParagraph 1's what they're debunking, Mattel only made Mattel's handgrip.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
I understand that, just
March 27, 2008 - 13:42 ET by general companyI understand that, just saying that the gun in question may have very well had Mattel stamped on it, regardless of who the "true" manufacturer was
edit: or are you saying the caption is the example? I wonder then from where did it originate then?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
According to them
March 27, 2008 - 13:50 ET by sarcasmoIt's "[Morgan and Tucker, 1987]". And I'l ask you, too. Have you ever seen a subcontractor's name stamped on the visible exterior parts of any shotgun, rifle, or pistol? (I'm sure it's probably happened, but I've never seen it!)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Cant say that I ever paid
March 27, 2008 - 14:15 ET by general companyCant say that I ever paid that much attention to those things. I also figured that it was noticed during disassembly. Was reading a forum on this topic, seems most folks who recall seeing the logo served in the 80's. Kinda odd since the gun was tabbed during Vietnam. But I honestly don't know much about it, just though I had found something overlooked on Snopes, reading the forums, I wasnt the only one. "Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Hmmm. The '80s...
March 27, 2008 - 14:43 ET by sarcasmoRight when Photoshop was coming out, IIRC! ;)
One good, expert-&-idiot filled place to ask about this issue would be Tom Bowers' Subguns.com or similar discussion sites. Also, the oft reviled Wikipedia has a pretty extensive history, which doesn't mention the word "Mattel."
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
sarc
March 27, 2008 - 14:20 ET by bassndudeEvidently, yes. Just because you have never seen it, that dont mean it hasn't happned in the past.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Sarc, I am only saying, my
March 27, 2008 - 13:28 ET by bassndudeSarc, I am only saying, my first M-16 had "Mattel" stamped on it. I know Clot made the reciver group, but that dosn't negate the fact that it was stamped "Mattel".
I am getting acustom to senior moments, tho. Bummer:-(
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Legally owned M16s exist (not many, thanks "FOPA" '86!)
March 27, 2008 - 13:46 ET by sarcasmoI'm sure none are so stamped, unless it's photoshop. If one did exist, it would be instantly famous in the NFA community (a tiny and esoteric subset of the firearms community, which because it's small & not-PC just got tossed under the bus in the Supreme Court).
I think you may be experiencing a conversation induced senior moment in this case. Chances are good that the handgrip was made by whatever molding/plastics subcontractor was closest to Armalite at the time. Normal practice would be to either not stamp it (most likely) or maybe stamp the name of the actual contractor. Think about it...Guns then & now were & are made by a whole motley bunch of subcontractors. How many subcontractors' names have you ever seen stamped on other guns, like pistols or shotguns? For me, at least, it's 0.
If the legend were true, we'd also probably see ancient examples on old AR-15s from that era, and we don't. Might you be able to ask a buddy about this? Snopes has been wrong before, but I truly doubt it in this case, in part because I've personally looked at various examples of Colt & Armalite guns from the era quite closely in the past. Although I wasn't looking for the word "Mattel" at the time, I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed it and remembered.
JMR
PS Check out the toy-ad -- talk about a lawsuit-free era!
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Then there is this
March 27, 2008 - 14:21 ET by general companyhttp://tinypic.com/vra6qg.jpg
Taken from here
http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=6126 "
Is this the toy?
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Ok, think about it...
March 27, 2008 - 14:30 ET by sarcasmoThe alleged "Mattel" is 'stamped' on the metal parts of the pic of a rifle, and now there purports to be a firearms division of the toy company?? This is why I mentioned photoshop, I've seen this one. It's a joke, but come to think of it, this may have played with some peoples' heads too. Bass & I are both older than photoshop, so we both recall the day when pictures didn't lie.
But think about it. Imagine you are Colt/Armalite in the early '60s making full auto rifles for the US government. Are you really going to let a well known plastic toy company stamp that crap on your stuff, even if they're the actual subcontractor? And suddenly the plastic toy company is stamping metal, not plastic?
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
That general company, must
March 27, 2008 - 14:44 ET by bassndudeThat general company, must have been my gun. The only one ever made, I guess. Whoed a thunk it would still be around.
Dosn't matter at all to me who sayes what. I know what I had and was intimate with it for all of 3 months. Traded up to the CAR-15. Didn't shoot as far, but in the jungle, it shot far enough. Most of the time.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I give up, but with one question
March 27, 2008 - 14:48 ET by sarcasmoHow is that the handgrip??
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
It's not, just saw it and
March 27, 2008 - 15:11 ET by general companyIt's not, just saw it and thought it might add a little to the conversation? Is it actually an M-16? When I first saw it I thought that maybe Mattel actually had in the past made a gun thus confusing everyone. If it is PS it is a real good job considering my results.
Just went out to the truck to look closely at my SW sure enough no other label on it. Oddly many manufactors of things such as telephones, copiers, computers and so on that allow their subcomponents to be labeled? Why not guns?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
General, yes it is an M-16.
March 27, 2008 - 15:25 ET by bassndudeGeneral, yes it is an M-16. That one in that pic is not the toy. The give a way is the "mattel firearms division".
You will not find a toy marked with that. Here is the same picture purchased by a collector.
http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37805
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, no it's not, but you must be feeling for Hillary by now...
March 27, 2008 - 20:25 ET by sarcasmoWith those sniper-memories she's been having! Your own link busts the Photoshop job rifle as a Photoshop job.
Again, imagine yourself as a Colt/Armalite era rifle manufacturing executive selling to the US military. Would you really let a subcontractor (that famously makes toys, not real guns!) do this? I don't think so. And not only does Wikipedia's M16 entry not-mention the word "Mattel," a google search for the term "mattel firearms division" strangely returns 0 documents. It's almost as if Mattel's a toy company and has no firearms division at all, except in Photoshop-land. :)
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
"Leon, I dident say they
March 27, 2008 - 11:57 ET by RESTLESS 1"Leon, I dident say they shouldn't have opinions, I said they have no business trying to influence our elections."
Leon, in other words, their opinion doesn't matter.
BD, Finally! You're
March 27, 2008 - 11:01 ET by LeonBD,
Finally! You're talking some sense. Although your post is not nearly outraged enough and you started out by trying to excuse the company based on your experience.
Only a professional propagandist like yourself would reply to a story like this by claiming you used old ammo, so it's not really that bad. Ha. Nice. Whoever is paying your salary to spread disinformation and apologize for all things administration is certainly getting every bang for their buck.
But yes, I am happy that you've finally admitted that something an American contractor has done is wrong. It's amazing it took this long.
Leon, you call a loyal
March 27, 2008 - 11:16 ET by bassndudeLeon, you call a loyal member of the active Military, a propagandist??? One that has served multiple combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lived with death around the next corner, and served our country. YOU?? Dont get me started on your lack of courage to face the call of your country. Seems to me that the apple fell along way from the tree, in your case.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, Yes, BD is a
March 27, 2008 - 11:20 ET by LeonBass,
Yes, BD is a propagandist. That is his number one job.
I fail to see how his prior service has any impact on his current job as a propagandist. Past service in no way excuses present behavior, as you've all made painfully clear through your treatment of vets you dislike (i.e. Kerry, Murtha, Patrick Murphy, etc.)
He consistently apologizes for massive corruption for the sole purpose of defending the Bush Admin. Even in the face of overwhelming, concrete evidences.
"Yes, BD is a
March 27, 2008 - 11:40 ET by Clear thinker"Yes, BD is a propagandist."
Leon, are you really that stupid? It seems that every day you try to outdo yourself from the day before. Well, it ain't working.
I will believe BD is a propogandist when you say you are in love with Ann Coulter.
"Abstain from McCain"
Outraged enough????? You
March 27, 2008 - 11:28 ET by BDOutraged enough?????
You must be new to the subject of national defense.
I was amused to be eating C-rats in 1986 that were canned in 1968 or before and still had cigarettes in the comfort pack.
I was concerned when I went to Desert Storm carrying an M-16 straight, not an A or A-1. No forward assist or anything (Bass will get the implication) but I was a staff pogue and did not have to worry. They offered me a Colt .45, but advised me there was shortage of ammunition for them in theater hence my acceptance of the 22 year old rifle right out of the cardboard box from warstocks at CRC.
You gotta get up to speed in order to be "Outraged." You aint there yet.
BD, I fail to see what
March 27, 2008 - 11:30 ET by LeonBD,
I fail to see what your personal story from 20 years ago has to do with AEY's current, pervasive corruption.
They are screwing our troops and our allies. They are scum bags and should be charged with treason against the US government. They have actively worked to hurt our war effort.
And you reply with a story about your personal experience in 1986. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
BD's personal experiences
March 27, 2008 - 14:00 ET by Roger the ShrubberBD's personal experiences are immaterial and off-base, but Leon's vast experience working with contractors makes him an unimpeachable source, and the final word. I am sure BD's experiences would hold more water, if only they fell in line with Leon's paradigm. Try to work on that, okay, BD?
I gotta say, that either
March 27, 2008 - 14:16 ET by BDI gotta say, that either Leon is not presenting his thesis statement adequately, or he is simply changing his thesis statements to suit the attacks.
To please him, I guess I will just have to walk into "the firesack" that his argument positions in front of me.
Leon: From reading your
March 27, 2008 - 14:14 ET by BDLeon:
From reading your posting of this morning, I assumed the thesis statement presented in your argument was that AEY corporation had defrauded the US government, and that this was either somehow encouraged by the DOD or the administration.
If you were simply angry that AEY had attempted to defraud and had been successfully caught by the US Army COR, then the argument is immaterial. A bad action had been caught by competant authority and was in the process of being punished.
But in reading your postings previous to this, I must assume you believe that these bad actions were indeed encouraged.
Either way, my postings shed light on the fact that such activity has occurred previous to this and the actual crux of the issue (Providing old, aging, or inadequate equipment) is not simply a failure of contracted companies, but indeed more examples can be traced back to liberal government shortchanging the DOD rather than a few examples of greedy contractors.
But have either argument, I am back to my fried rice.
BD, I never said these
March 27, 2008 - 14:52 ET by LeonBD,
I never said these actions were encouraged (although I KBR's garbage work hasn't been discouraged)
My only point is that American companies are screwing our troops and killing our war effort.
We haven't demanded accountability from many of them, but we need to start doing it more. This is an example where finally accountability might actually be demanded. It's a good sign.
My outrage was simply over the fact that these guys could operate like this. It's treasonous.
Do you mean you have an
March 27, 2008 - 15:02 ET by BDDo you mean you have an issue with KBR in a trash collection issue, or that their work has been substandard? I have no idea if they have a contract dealing with trash collection, probably do an dif that is the case they are doing a fine job since the last time I was at Camp Victory it was tidy.
If you only point is that contractors occasionally misbehave, I will acknowledge this, but it is not indicative of all, most, or even many.
Reference it killing our war effort, I see no evidence of that. How many patrols were the Afghanis NOT able to conduct due to the suppply status of their arms? None that I have heard of.
So while the contractor might be doing something that I disagree with and might even be unethical, I still see no evidence that it has "Killed our war effort."
We have not demanded accountability from our contractors? I see no evidence of that as well. In fact, it was the Army who uncovered this issue. COR's are busy folks and are a shortage (But aren't all personnel in the military stretching back to, yes, you guessed it, WJC's administration and his cuts to personnel.)
If your outrage is against this contractor for what you term "Treason" shouldn't we likewise hold some legislators/executive branch personnel in similar contempt? After all, budget cuts in the 90's caused MORE damage.
Time to put down the BB...
BD, 1) Lame joke.
March 27, 2008 - 16:42 ET by LeonBD,
1) Lame joke. Their work is substandard, or do you think it's ok for our soldiers to be electrocuted to death while showering?
2) I have no idea how many Afghani patrols were not able to conduct patrols. That's immaterial to whether or not it's ethical/fair/successfully fulfilling contract requirements.
3) There has been story after story of contractors hampering the war effort. Making life more dangerous for our troops. Wasting tax payers money. You act as if these are isolated incidents. They aren't. This is pervasive abuse and corruption that's been going on since we invaded Iraq. Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
4) There is ample evidence of us not demanding accountability. Again, we hear constantly about poor work or crappy materials and nothing ever happens. Nobody's ever punished. No contracts are ever canceled.
5) I said that this story is the first time I've seen any accountability. That's why I said it's about time. You can't use this one to try to prove that we are holding these guys accountable. IT's the first time in 5 years!
6) Your jab at the end is irrelevant to contractor waste and corruption.
1) Lame joke. Their
March 27, 2008 - 17:52 ET by BD1) Lame joke. Their work is substandard, or do you think it's ok for our soldiers to be electrocuted to death while showering?
In both of my tours in Iraq, I never saw anyone electrocuted. However, I did eat well at the KBR messhalls, Had all the fuel I needed thanks to the KBR convoys, Eventually was able to work out in the KBR provided gyms, was able to pick up PX material as I desired, and lived in airconditioned quarters, used the internet as much as possible, while having plenty of ammunition for my unit as required.
I guess you could say this is the first war in which all classes of supply were more than adequately provided and to the extent they are. This is due to USTRANSCOM and its contractors from KBR/halliburton amongst others.
If you had lived there for even a few days you would not bad mouth those who run the roads to provide such amenities.
2) I have no idea how many Afghani patrols were not able to conduct patrols. That's immaterial to whether or not it's ethical/fair/successfully fulfilling contract requirements.
You stated that failing contractors such as AEY were costing us the war. I seek proof. The actions are bad, and even unseemly, however I see no evidence that they are costing the war as you stated originally.
3) There has been story after story of contractors hampering the war effort. Making life more dangerous for our troops. Wasting tax payers money. You act as if these are isolated incidents. They aren't. This is pervasive abuse and corruption that's been going on since we invaded Iraq. Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
See first answer for reply. All logistics flow in country is made possible largely because of contractors willing to provide the service in a dangerous environment. Likewise you will be surprised at the amount of maintenance of vehciles, buidlings, Electronics, and everything else that is performed by systems contractors who sit with us in the bunkers as we wait for the all clear following a rocket attack.
The US military largely contracted much of this out starting int he bad old days of the 90's when our personnel level was slashed. It became a question of "You gotta lose somebody, do you want to lose the unit medic, or the Signal Systems Repair Tech who can be contracted out?"
I would LOVE to have all of the slots in theater being taken up by real uniform wearing soldiers, but that is not possible since we no longer have a 1.2 million man army.
So, yes the events are isolated when compared to the situation.
Unless of course you don't mind things like KBR not paying social security tax despite having over 10,000 US employees?
God Bless em, I wish I didn't have to pay Social Security since I will never receive it. Taking a warm coat off someone elses back will not make my bare one any warmer.
4) There is ample evidence of us not demanding accountability. Again, we hear constantly about poor work or crappy materials and nothing ever happens. Nobody's ever punished. No contracts are ever canceled.
Really, and you know this how? The only contract violations you know of are the ones picked up by the US Contracting Officers, CID, or similar organizations providing just such accountability.
6) Your jab at the end is irrelevant to contractor waste and corruption.
Why?
This guy is a pro. Feign
March 27, 2008 - 17:58 ET by LeonThis guy is a pro.
Feign ignorance.
Defend KBR.
Blame Clinton.
Pretend it's fair for some to pay social security while others don't.
End with a question.
Cash paycheck.
Thanks for the compliment,
March 27, 2008 - 18:07 ET by BDThanks for the compliment, I take it that you concede? Years of training in various logics.
You should try some.
Regarding you constant assertion that I am a paid propagandist, one can never seem to satisfy the Conspiros that:
So I shall not bother, but will relegate you to the ranks of such Conspiros.
BD, There's simply no
March 27, 2008 - 18:13 ET by LeonBD,
There's simply no point. You ignore the realities
and read me the brochure. What you type has no substance.
It's too textbook.
Reading your post was literally like
reading KBR's website. It's truly incredible. I would hire
you any day. Like I said, you're a pro.
Put me in whatever group you want. I know a salesman when I see one.
Okay, I see
March 27, 2008 - 18:21 ET by BDOkay, I see now.
Contractors = Corporate guys = Bad.
Is that simple enough to encapsulate your thesis?
Wrong BD, Bad Contactors
March 27, 2008 - 18:27 ET by LeonWrong BD,
Bad Contactors = Bad for America. Bad for our soldiers. Bad for our tax dollars. Bad for everyone.
It's a very simple
statement. There's no grand sweeping message. It's
demanding quality control. It's demanding respect in one's
work. It's simpy demanding getting what you pay for.
The
waste is unreal. Right in front of faces. In many instances in
Iraq. We've had millions of dollars in CASH disappear. Do
you know how voluminous that much cash is? How does it just disappear? Unaccounted for? What???
It's
out of control. If any contractor working in America did ONE of
the things we read about regularly in Iraq, they would never work
again.
So, what is new in the fact
March 28, 2008 - 10:13 ET by BDSo, what is new in the fact that there is occasional corruption during wartime in a combat theater? It has occurred since the Revolutionary War when New York merchants sold rotting fish to the army encamped in New Jersey. Wanna talk about uniforms manufactured out of felt and sold to the Union Army?
If these particular instances in this war is what gets you upset, then stand at the back of the line since the rest of us realize that prosecuting wastefulness and graft in war is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
If you really wanna talk about helping the army, then as I have said before, GO AFTER THE CULPRITS IN CONGRESS WHO SHAFTED US FOR 20 years.
Bill Clinton used to claim that he had trimmed 250,000 federal government jobs in an effort to do away with waste. What he did not say was all 250,000 of them came from DOD and DOD associated organizations. Doesnt THAT fill you with rage?
Leon?
March 28, 2008 - 15:29 ET by BDLeon?
double post
March 28, 2008 - 15:30 ET by BDdouble post
Chill out Leon
March 27, 2008 - 18:25 ET by acumenWhy don't you give it a rest Leon? Until you have walked a mile in Bravo Delta's boots you have no right to question his personal experiences in the ME. Go start your annoying crap with someone else on NB but leave our military men and women alone. They have had more than enough to put up with from terrorists, they certainly don't need this garbage from fellow Americans.
Acumen, I'm not
March 27, 2008 - 18:29 ET by LeonAcumen,
I'm not questioning his life or his accomplishments, or even who he is as a person.
I just don't trust his motivations. That's all.
Furthermore, you'd be wise to remember we're all anonymous around here.
C'mon Leon
March 27, 2008 - 18:44 ET by acumenYou are most certainly questioning Bravo Delta's first-hand experiences in Iraq when you have none.
BD has been posting since NB started and has offered ample proof to back up his claims. Don't take my word for it....go back to the archives. In that time his motivation has always been to provide a fair and accurate assessment of the situation in Iraq (the good, the bad and the ugly) regardless of public opinion....once again....check the archives.
I understand his motivation to give a fair assessment of the civilian (and uniformed) support personel in the war. They have made his life better over there. It's called gratitude. Why can't you follow that lead and make our military people's life a little better over here? What would that cost you?
Stop the paranoia and start supporting people that risk it all for you and me. They deserve at least that.
No Acumen, BD's personal
March 27, 2008 - 18:51 ET by LeonNo Acumen,
BD's personal experiences in no way excuse the abuse of our country and our troops by one of OUR OWN contractor's.
Then let it go dude
March 27, 2008 - 18:59 ET by acumenThen quit hassling him. That's all...
Acumen, I'll do that when
March 27, 2008 - 19:04 ET by LeonAcumen,
I'll do that when acknowledges the criminal behavior of KBR.
Ever occur to you that
March 27, 2008 - 19:23 ET by general companyEver occur to you that he may not see it that way. He has benefited by some maybe even a lot of the good work they do. He even gave some very solid examples of why he feels that way. You know the way no one should dare talk poorly of your Brother even though you are upset with him?
Why would any notice from him be important to you?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
GC, Whether or not he
March 27, 2008 - 19:31 ET by LeonGC,
Whether or not he sees it that way has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
He has access to the same information that we do.
Really? I would say I
March 28, 2008 - 10:30 ET by BDReally? I would say I have MORE information than you do. I , after all was saved the labor of making breakfast /lunch/dinner in my hootch for those years I was deployed while I should have been working or sleeping.
I was saved the labor of filling sandbags while I should have been doing analysis.
I was saved from having to farm out my analysts on taskings to run road convoys to bring fuel for M1/M2/AH-64's to the combat area.
I was aved from having to drop everything and trouble shoot the computer network because my reports were hung up on a server someplace.
Were you?
Leon?
March 28, 2008 - 15:31 ET by BDLeon?
I will acknowledge criminal
March 28, 2008 - 10:26 ET by BDI will acknowledge criminal behavior when I observe it. What I have observed of KBR has been remarkably positive.
Making a profit is not criminal no matter how much you aparently wish it to be.
How about abuse and misconduct of our CONGRESS!
March 27, 2008 - 20:13 ET by PawpawNHow about abuse and misconduct of our CONGRESS! Do you not agree that they have hampered the effort, that they have put our soldiers in jeopardy and harm's way? Please answer.
Vielen danke for the kind
March 28, 2008 - 10:24 ET by BDVielen danke for the kind words....
Against war...not the troops
March 27, 2008 - 18:18 ET by acumenCareful Leon - - Your supposed concern for our troops becomes quite meaningless when you personally attack one of our troops. The ingratitude you display towards one of America's best that has kept your ass safe for the last 6+ years is mindblowing but far from surprising.
acumen, The Newsbusters
March 27, 2008 - 18:23 ET by Leonacumen,
The Newsbusters attack any troop and any vet they disagree with. By your own admissions, they aren't infallible.
I'm just calling it as I see it.
That's lame Leon
March 27, 2008 - 18:33 ET by acumenThis isn't about NewsBusters Leon. This is about your actions. There is no way you can justify denegrating someone that has made the countless sacrifices that BD has made for America and the people of Iraq. If you truly care about the troops, start by showing some gratitude instead of questioning someone's analysis that has been there, done that.
Acumen, But I'm not
March 27, 2008 - 18:40 ET by LeonAcumen,
But I'm not denegrating his service or him personally.
I'm denegrating his unabashed propagandizing for a corrupt American contractor that wastes our money and harms our troops.
If
YOU truly care about the troops, how about demanding an end to their
abuse at the hands of an American company. Try to that for
once. A soldier was literally electrocuted to death in
a barracks shower b/c KBR never inspected the electrical work of the
previous contractor. That is unforgivable. Someone died due
to a company's laziness. Due to a company not caring about their
job. I don't know what kind of person you are if you can
rationalize that.
We don't let that happen here, so why would we let it happen there?
Later Leon
March 27, 2008 - 18:57 ET by acumenI was born at night....but not last night.
You and I both know what the deal is here.....and it sure isn't your concern for the troops. Come clean dude or just let it go.
Why don't you put as much energy into complaining about crazies strapping on explosive vests and blowing up dozens of innocents as you do trashing America? WTF?!? It's your country man....as an American, you're just making yourself look bad when there are truly sick people out there that really need calling out.
The military are the toughest bunch of folks I've ever had the priviledge to encounter. They don't need you or me to watch their six. If they have a problem with support/supply it WILL get fixed ASAP with or without our whining.
That's all the time I have for bizzaro world tonight. Later...
Acumen, I'm not attacking
March 27, 2008 - 19:02 ET by LeonAcumen,
I'm not attacking the military. I'm attacking
the contractors that are screwing our military. To ignore or
accept this abuse is an insult and a vile offense against our
troops.
So...My Answer = easy.
Because I can't do anything about crazies strapping bombs to their
chests. I'm sorry they don't like my rock and roll music and my
sexy ladies. Nothing I can do about it.
But I CAN demand excellence from my own people and my own country.
I will continue to do that regardless of your corny rhetoric.
Propagandinzing. I guess
March 28, 2008 - 15:32 ET by BDPropagandinzing? I guess disagreeing with you might seem that way if you are sure you are sweetness and light.
Regarding the electrocution. That is totally regrettable and it angers those of us who have been there, but we look at it with reason. I have actually showered/shaved/defecated in those shower trailers and gotta say that they beat the hell out of having your deputy dump a plastic bucket of cold water over you while you stand in the dust.
Been there, done that.
Something you obiously miss out on is that in the third world construction standards are not exactly up to what they are in you manhatten apartment. You have to think of combat zones in a similar manner. Improvements are made continually when possible or economically viable.
Uh, Leon,
March 27, 2008 - 10:47 ET by R D HelmFor as much as the Newsbusters claim to be patriots and claim to
support the war effort, they don't really seem to care about American
companies harming our troops.
If it turns out that this company has done this, then the people responsible should be locked up behind welded-shut doors and never let out.
Ever.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
You're a much nicer person, clearly.
March 27, 2008 - 10:53 ET by sarcasmoI say the guilty should not only lose all possible money that can be confiscated (for simplicity, I'd have our obese government pretending it's a pot-case, in which case they'd lose everything pre-trial as suspects, just as a little "sauce for the goose" lesson). After the confiscation, I think they should all be killed. By hanging (the fiscally responsible method -- and yes, I'd reuse the same rope).
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
R D, Exactly, but this
March 27, 2008 - 11:03 ET by LeonR D,
Exactly, but this type of stuff has been going on for 5 years, from multiple contractors, with ZERO demand for accountability.
There has been story after story of KBR abusing America and harming our troops, but nobody has done anything about it. In fact, the Newsbusters (esp. BD) have adamantly defended KBR's right to hurt our war effort. It's truly sickening.
Leon,
March 27, 2008 - 11:45 ET by R D Helm...but this type of stuff has been going on for 5 years...
Actually, this stuff has been going on since at least the Civil War, and probably went on during the Revolutionary War, as well.
Contractors screwing the government is, sadly, a time honored tradition in this country. Eventually, however, it usually catches up to them, as it will in this case.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
RD, don't you realize
March 27, 2008 - 12:19 ET by Roger the ShrubberRD, don't you realize history did not begin until 2001? Quit cluttering the argument with these silly facts that get in the way of the Bush-hatin', okay?
I wonder, are you as
March 27, 2008 - 13:28 ET by general companyI wonder, are you as outraged at the MSM and some elected officials for hurting the war effort, and giving aid to our enemies. Or do you save your rage for what you can tie in with the Feds, there by implicating Bush?
And please dont suggest that I condone any of it, I dont.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
If this had zero
March 27, 2008 - 14:18 ET by BDIf this had zero accountability, then how did the COR catch the bad acts?
Hmmmmm.... Another argument
March 28, 2008 - 15:33 ET by BDHmmmmm.... Another argument of Leons = SHACK!
How long are we going to
March 27, 2008 - 09:09 ET by NewsbusterbrownHow long are we going to allow American contractors to directly harm our war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan?
You support both efforts?
Newsbuster, I supported
March 27, 2008 - 09:23 ET by LeonNewsbuster,
I supported Afghanistan the whole time.
I was against the Iraq war prior to the invasion, but now that we are there, I support it fully. While I question our strategy, I'm 100% behind our troops.
But sweet, dated, tired question.
Leon, I'm glad you got to
March 27, 2008 - 09:26 ET by JasonCLeon, I'm glad you got to this one before me since it was addressed to you, as few things infuriate me as much as the assumption that because I was against the Iraq invasion from the get-go I must want it to fail now. You know, just like our opposition in 2003 emboldened Saddam. Pure, knee-jerk garbage.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Yeah Jason, It is
March 27, 2008 - 09:28 ET by LeonYeah Jason,
It is infuriating. And cheap.
These ARE a simple peoples that can only think in simple terms. I.E. you're with us or against us. It's a dialetic world around here.
Hence, the corny nicknames for EVERY SINGLE person they dislike.
Duh, we all cannot be a
March 27, 2008 - 10:54 ET by Roger the ShrubberDuh, we all cannot be a sophisticated and refined as you.
At least when tossing insults, try doing it without poor grammar. Makes you look, well, simple, and, well, STUPID.
At least I know that I piss you off so much, that part IS gratifying.
Roger, dont interupt the
March 27, 2008 - 11:01 ET by bassndudeRoger, dont interupt the love fest they have going. Its cute:-)
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Yes...
March 27, 2008 - 11:09 ET by Jack BauerYes we can!!
Leon, I'm glad you got to
March 27, 2008 - 09:41 ET by NewsbusterbrownLeon, I'm glad you got to this one before me since it was addressed to you, as few things infuriate me as much as the assumption that because I was against the Iraq invasion from the get-go I must want it to fail now. You know, just like our opposition in 2003 emboldened Saddam. Pure, knee-jerk garbage.
Now, just hold on one freakin' minute here, Jason. I asked him a question because he sounded extremely gung ho in his earlier post. I don't read or memorize every damn post here, so I was actually curious about where he stood on both fronts. No "gotcha" moment from me. Just inquisitiveness on my part.
I thought my history as one who doesn't dabble in name calling or other histrionics around here should have cut me some slack, but I guess that's not the case.
The implication that I read
March 27, 2008 - 09:57 ET by JasonCThe implication that I read into it was the shopworn "If you oppose the mission, it means you hate America and our troops." That it's hypocritical to criticize anyone who harms the war effort if we were against it in the first place. This meme has been used over and over to accuse the left of not supporting the troops, of their leaders not having the courage to take on enemies (as if it takes courage to deploy other men and women to fight for your political cause), &c. If that was not the implication you were making, then I apologize for overreacting.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
If that was not the
March 27, 2008 - 10:01 ET by NewsbusterbrownIf that was not the implication you were making, then I apologize for overreacting.
Apology accepted.
But sweet, dated,
March 27, 2008 - 09:37 ET by NewsbusterbrownBut sweet, dated, tired question.
Since I have never asked you the question before, I don't know what you're talking about.
Leon, it's great to hear
March 27, 2008 - 15:07 ET by MrShyLeon, it's great to hear you're fully supporting a victorious outcome in both the Afghan and Iraq wars, as we all are.
Your outrage over this arms contractor is valid, and I'm sure we all share it with you. They've been caught, so let's hope they see their due justice.
So can I expect you to join us in outrage that's equally deserving, over the many deliberate moves made by mostly Democrats and the MSM to impede our efforts in Iraq? There have been countless heinous acts -- or lack of acts -- by politians, journalists, media outlets, etc., that have contributed to hampering our efforts. Many have been egregeous and quite blatant.
You've been following NB for some time now, as this site has tirelessly documented the multitude of outrageous anti-war and anti-success-in-Iraq actions by people in our government and the MSM, but you never seem to side with us when these come up.
Here's hoping you've changed your tune and you'll now be consistent, if you mean what you say about fully support both the Iraq and Afghanastan war and are rooting for victory in both.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Leon, it says this was a
March 27, 2008 - 09:33 ET by Dan The Man 2Leon, it says this was a low ball bidder and sometimes you get shoddy crap using this method. You complain when there is no bid and you complain when there is a bid. I agree AEY and its officers should be put in gitmo for what they are doing.
The moral is low bid usually means shoddy or change orders to get it up to spec.
It is the fault of the congress for wanting oversight and getting it in a bid process. But now they dont want to take responsiblity. Part of teh problems with a government bid process is that it takes forever to get something, so if you need it yesterday forget it.
Most bid processes take years to complete because of the regulations and such overcomming hurdles.
If you want to comment on something you should really have some idea of how it works.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
I agree AEY and its
March 27, 2008 - 09:35 ET by NewsbusterbrownI agree AEY and its officers should be put in gitmo for what they are doing.
I also agree.
No Way! Was that a pig
March 27, 2008 - 09:37 ET by LeonNo Way!
Was that a pig that just flew by my window?
I've been posting example after example of contractor corruption in Iraq and this is literally the first time a conservative at Newsbusters has acknowledged the treasonous behavior.
Finally we're getting somewhere.
Time to end the corruption. Time to demand accountability. Time to start helping our troops win the war, instead of increasing their adversity.
Dan, I should have an idea
March 27, 2008 - 10:00 ET by LeonDan,
I should have an idea of how it works?
...says the guy that's talking completely out of his rear.
1) The low bidder always wins the bid process (unless the Union is involved). I see bids for jobs my clients are involved in every single day, and without fail, almost every time, the lowest bidder gets the job. So NO, lowest bid does not imply shoddy work at all. You clearly have no experience in the realm of contractor bidding, so I'm confused as to why you would even get involved in the coversation. I could pull up 10 bids right now for jobs $500 million and above in America where all of the bid winners were the lowest. That's how it works. Wow. You are so far off base it's amazing.
2) Most bid processes take years? In what world? Year with an S meaning plural, aka more than one? What are you talking about? Most bid processes are handled within a matter of months. For a massive job it could take a bit longer, but no more than year. Do you just make this stuff up?
You don't have a clue my man. Which makes this comment insanely hilarious: If you want to comment on something you should really have some idea of how it works. (Dan the Man, whilst writing about something that he has no idea of how it works)
Leon I work for government
March 27, 2008 - 11:46 ET by Dan The Man 2Leon I work for government and have a very good understanding of how it works. So go blow somewhere else.
Its not only the bidding, but the specifications and the writeups, teh vetting of the qualifications. The bidder is not always the low bidder depending on what you are trying to do. Low bid means there will be corruption like this because the companies are in it for a buck and if they feel they can boost their profit margin then they cut costs.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Dan, pay no attention to
March 27, 2008 - 11:49 ET by bassndudeDan, pay no attention to Leon. He has been talking out his rectum so long now, you have a hard time telling if he is speaking or farting.
I worked in the construction business for years, as an iron contractor and a welding contractor, and now work for the goverment. I have worked on bids that took me 6 months just to bid the welding, (VA hospital comes to mind), and it was 2 years before the bidding was completed. Leon hasent any idea what hes is speaking of. Nor has he any idea of the difference between a fillet weld or a moment weld. So I would not spend any time with him on this subject. He is ignorant of it.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Dan and bass
March 27, 2008 - 11:57 ET by candanceLeon's vast experience as an IT consultant makes him an expert on military contracts...more so than actual military people who see the contracts in action....didn't you know that?
candance, Leon know all and
March 27, 2008 - 12:00 ET by bassndudecandance, Leon know all and sees all. Just you ask him.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Candance, 1) I'm not an
March 27, 2008 - 12:07 ET by LeonCandance,
1) I'm not an IT consultant
2) We're talking about the contractor bidding process which is not only limited to military contracts
3) Why would you get involved in a conversation about which you don't know anything?
4) Think logically for a second (if you can). Dan the Man claims it takes years to finish bidding processes. Let's use the contractors currently in Iraq. We went to war in 2003. Hence, the bidding process would have been iniated around the same time. Once we knew were definitely going to Iraq, we would have put the various contracts out to bid. By Dan's and Bass's logic, this process would take multiple years. You can't start work until the bidding is complete. So are you all trying to tell me that there were no contractors working in Iraq in 2003 or 2004? Hmmm. I don't think so.
oh sorry Leon
March 27, 2008 - 12:41 ET by candanceSince you got your start in the IT field I kinda figured that was your basic means of employment....
I thought your article was about contracts in Iraq.
You really think they started looking for contractors the day they invaded Iraq?
The Northrop Grumman/Airbus
March 27, 2008 - 13:55 ET by Roger the ShrubberThe Northrop Grumman/Airbus contract with the Air Force had been in the works since 2003, when Boeing was caught cheating. We're talking 3-4 years.
Which is why I said 'most'
March 27, 2008 - 14:35 ET by LeonWhich is why I said 'most' bid processes are handled in a matter of months.
moving the goalpost?
March 27, 2008 - 14:40 ET by candanceYour exact words were:
For a massive job it could take a bit longer, but no more than year. Do you just make this stuff up?
Now you concede that perhaps that it could take longer than one year?
No, I need more details
March 27, 2008 - 14:49 ET by LeonNo,
I need more details on what Roger is talking about.
Was it the bidding process that took 3 years?
Here is a timeline. In
March 27, 2008 - 15:10 ET by Roger the ShrubberHere is a timeline.
In November 2003, Boeing fires people involved with scandal. It took until October 2004 for the Air Force to remove this from their budget (we're talking molasses here)
September 2005 - Northrop Grumman says it will team with EADS to compete for an Air Force tanker contract.
February 29, 2008 - Northrop Grumman gets contract. It took roughly 29 months from when Northrop Grumman announced the intentions in public (surely it has been in the works privately long before that) until they were officially awarded the contract.
The original deal with Boeing took 20 months to complete (Sept 01 - May 03)
I am sure you will move your goal posts some more, change your criteria and qualifications for "bidding", etc, etc, etc, to somehow defend your point (which is your usual m.o.), but the bottom line is this: you cannot expect dealing with the government to be very fast. Not 60-90 days fast, unless it is very minor, I suppose.
Rog, This doesn't tell me
March 27, 2008 - 16:20 ET by LeonRog,
This doesn't tell me anything about when the bid specs were released and when the resulting due date was set.
Do you understand what we're talking about?
Duh, no, because you have
March 27, 2008 - 19:52 ET by Roger the ShrubberDuh, no, because you have already pointed out today jussthow simple and stoopid we all are here, remember?
I think I explained rather easily and plainly a rough timeline. If it does not agree with YOUR narrative, that is not MY problem. You deal with absolutes so many times, and they invariably bite you in the ass when it's all said and done. Someday you will learn. Until then, we will continue to take your insolent, smarmy, egotistical ass to school.
I am sure you will not learn from this painful lesson, you being so full of yourself, and I really do not care. Pointinng out your mistakes, as usual, is reward enough for me.
Rog, It's true what they
March 27, 2008 - 22:44 ET by LeonRog,
It's true what they say.
The simple pleasures make up for the lack of class in Pennsyltucky.
Leon
March 27, 2008 - 14:51 ET by bassndudeJust what kind of bids to you handle, exactly? IT stuff, right? Not in the general contracting business are you? So running cables and installing computers is not that complicated. Even a Caveman can do it.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, I consult with GCs
March 27, 2008 - 14:55 ET by LeonBass,
I consult with GCs and subs (and engineers and architects). We also have a unit within my company that handles surety/bonding.
For the IT companies we work with (rarely) we don't get involved in their bids.
Leon it depends entirely on
March 27, 2008 - 14:03 ET by Dan The Man 2Leon it depends entirely on what you are bidding and how complicated the bidding is. Sometimes work is accomplished through price agreements and sometimes there is no bidding. The urgency of the problem at hand is what determines the process used. In the theatre of war contractors were used that were reliable but not need be the cheapest. This is what happened at the first and later there was more competitive bidding going on.
My thougts on this AEY fiasco are that the bidding was accelerated and the company was not vetted properly. This was most likely in direct response to teh Murtha's of congress complaining about a "competitive" bid instead of going with proven vendors.
Thisn kof it as going out and buying an item. You have manufacturers and retailers that you trust to put out a good product and stand by whwat they sell. But, on a whim you buy some no name Rolex from a person walking up the street. Of course he has the lowest bid but who is he, will you see him again and is the merchandise sound?
I would be interested in looking at the bid process and see how long it took to provide services.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Bass, That's simply a
March 27, 2008 - 12:04 ET by LeonBass,
That's simply a lie.
If you really were an iron contractor and a welding contractor and if you really were involved in the bidding process at all, you would know that the standard time alloted for completing bids is 60 - 90 days from the receipt of the bid specifications or 60 - 90 days from when the bid specs are made available.
So you're contention about a 6 month bidding process for a simple welding job is completely fictional. Many of my clients perform work for the state and every time the bid process is 2 - 3 months, no more. Even if it were to drag out a bit longer (which is rare), it would never take 2 years to complete bidding. I'm sorry but I'm calling your bluff on this. What owner would allow 2 years for their jobs to be bid?
By the way, what does the difference between types of welds have to do with bidding time? I'm not a welder.
Leon, I do sometimes wish I
March 27, 2008 - 12:10 ET by bassndudeLeon, I do sometimes wish I could get my hands on you. Do not call me a lier. Ever, again. I was owner and partner of R&W Welding for several years. Then after my partner retired, I was the sole owner. You, havent ever worked very many large jobs, have you? All contracts have a bid date. A date the bid has to be submitted. MOST are within a 90 day period. Some are more, depending on the complexity of the design. Any idiot knows that. Well, almost any idiot.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, 1) I work many
March 27, 2008 - 12:16 ET by LeonBass,
1) I work many large jobs. Primarily jobs between $200 million and $3 Billion (i.e. university expansion plans)
2) So now you are agreeing with me? That the standard time alloted for bids is 60 - 90 days?
3) You open up your post by claiming i don't know what I'm talking about. Then you claim that I'm correct about the 90 day bidding time being standard, which makes your original post fictional, which then makes your claim that I don't know what I'm talking about incorrect.
Keep backpeddling bass. You were forced to make things up to attack me and defend Dan. I know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to contractor bidding. I deal with it every day with some of largest national contractors in America.
So if you want to dance let's dance, but don't write garbage and try to pass it off like you know what you're talking about.
To reiterate my original points:
1) Lowest bidder always wins
2) The standard bidding process is 60 - 90 days, not years.
Oh, Leon, your telling me,
March 27, 2008 - 12:22 ET by bassndudeOh, Leon, your telling me, that working on a goverment contract, low bid always wins, and you have 90 days to get the bid in on a billion dollar contract? That is including ground work? And punch list?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
BTW Leon, not agreeing with
March 27, 2008 - 12:47 ET by bassndudeBTW Leon, not agreeing with you. Most all "smaller" jobs are 60 to 90 days. Larger complex jobs take longer. Any ----- know that. Well, almost any -----.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I award bids, low bid does
March 27, 2008 - 14:02 ET by general companyI award bids, low bid does not always win a contract. An established vendor is almost always favored provided their work has been satisfactory
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
watch out general
March 27, 2008 - 14:16 ET by candanceYou do know that disagreeing with Leon will earn you a post with the following retort:
He really does work like a clock.
Yea, thats ok. I don't need
March 27, 2008 - 14:38 ET by general companyYea, thats ok. I don't need to lie, I just don't like to see someone force bad info on folks. The low bid game is a sham. Show me low bidder and I will show you someone with more "change orders" then all the other bidders combined. A good Project Manager knows these things, low bidder seldom, if ever cost the least.
Not to mention the bidding process is a little more complicated then is being suggested. The owner can give any amount of time he wishes. I have awarded them in 3 days or as long as 9 months depending on the speed needed and the complexity of the job.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
gc, what kind of jobs are
March 27, 2008 - 16:32 ET by Leongc,
what kind of jobs are you bidding?
In the world of construction, low bid wins 95% of the time.
95% is not all, as you
March 27, 2008 - 16:52 ET by general company95% is not all, as you stated.
I have done some building contracts, but mostly I do high tech one of a kind Machines and Instruments. I also contract myself, when I find a suitable project.
The point is, you do not know every detail of everyone else's projects. So suggesting that everyone has to follow the same rule you do is simply naive. Now, I know you want to say, "well their maybe some extenuating circumstances", in witch case me and the rest of the posters of this thread would say, that's right.
If you are clever you can surround yourself with excellent people and great vendors. While I do not by no means head this project, their are a few of us that do work very hard to keep it on the tracks by lifting the debris from them.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Fair enough GC, I was
March 27, 2008 - 17:53 ET by LeonFair enough GC,
I was just mildly incensed that Dan the Man
would claim that lowest bid is automatically indicative of
corruption. That's simply not the case. But you are
correct, I over simplified and assumed some things that I was not aware
of. Guilty as charged. My apologies. But The
Man Dan is still wrong. Ha.
I spoke my perspective. And I was wrong.
gc,Just wondering, the math on minority owned business VS whitey
March 27, 2008 - 14:38 ET by upcountrywaterI did a bid on equipment to be delivered to the Navy. The amount of paper was just mind boggeling...and had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JOB.
50 pages delt with, drug testing, 25 pages "are you a minority owned business" ... then they explained how they wanted the equipment to function... (magic) and could I comply with their wishes.
OHH Hell No.
No I wasn't the lowest bidder, a woman owned business bagged the contract.. Golly the system failed, and my competer lost money. lol.
HAY Leon, this process lasted 18 months..This job total was less than $300,000.00
<wake up>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
Lot's of larger
March 27, 2008 - 14:50 ET by general companyLot's of larger contractors subcontract out most of the work, thier by some fall into Minority rules. Some simply do not solicit bid's from unwanted contractors, Minorities or other wise. Some also have mostly Minority workers. The Feds only require a certain percentage of minorities where applicable. We honestly do not worry about it here since our population is very diverse. Prevaling wage is the big deal here, since Katrina the influx of illeagals has killed the skilled labor wages.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
gc, I was contacted by them.
March 27, 2008 - 15:44 ET by upcountrywaterAlso my business did not fit into their prevailing wage scheme.
Man oh man, Thanks for reminding me of more layers of BS that needed to be delt with.
$700.00 for a hammer is not enough.
<wake up>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
Bass, 1) What do you
March 27, 2008 - 14:48 ET by LeonBass,
1) What do you consider to be a 'smaller' job? Could you quanitfy this for the sake of the discussion? (for instance, I just had a client bid on a $300 million dollar building, mixed commercial/residential - bids were due 90 days from release of bid specs - is $300 million a small job? I don't think so)
2) You said you worked for R&W Welding. They are under $1,000,000 annually in revenue according to D&B. Doesn't sound like they do many large jobs.
3) Since you were (are?) a contractor, do you have access to the Dodge system or PCN? I could prove both of my points about bidding time and lowest bid if you could access this system. Unfortunately, you have to pay for it, as is the case with most bid tracking systems. I don't of any that are free. If you can access this let me know and we can put this debate to bed.
4) I'm going to update my low bid comments. I said most before. I'll quantify this and put it at 95%. 95% of the time the low bid wins. The only times the low bid doesn't win in contracting is when (a) the owner doesn't get many bids and throws them all out or (b) when the lowest bid is so low that arouses suspicion (i.e. half the price of the next lowest bid). Aside from these two reasons, the low bid will win.
I don't have much time right now but I'll be back on later tonight. Get back to me on these questions when you have some time.
Leon,1. A mixed
March 27, 2008 - 15:17 ET by bassndudeLeon,
1. A mixed commercial/residential construction project sounds like a shoping mall, or a strip mall and condos or houses. Mostly streets, parking lots and simple construction. So it is a simple projet. Simple projects are easy to bid. You can do one of those almost off of square footage.
2. Wrong R&W Welding. My company was in Dallas, in the 80's. Got to be to much for me running the crews and the bidding after Ike retired. The last jobs we did were the Garland Police Storage Unit. That project alone was a million. The Plano Water Treatment and Storage Plant. Over a million. And the Allen Libriary. Over a million. Rolled up the machines, closed the doors and moved back to Oklahoma.
3. I work for the goverment now. Engineering Tech. I over see the welding and fabrication here.
4. Low bid is good, unless it is not a minority owned business and the minority owned business is within 10% of the low bid. One exception is, required completion dates. Whoever can complete by the date, low or high bid, gets the job.
5. When the I-40 bridge collapsed in Oklahoma, the bidder that got the contract was awarded it for the completion date. With a bonus for early completion.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, 1) It's a 45
March 27, 2008 - 16:28 ET by LeonBass,
1) It's a 45 story high rise in the middle of a city. First 4 floors are two major retail outlets, next 41 are mixed condo/hotel. Not simple at all. And I'm not sure how you would make the assumption that it was a strip mall with a price tag of $300 million. That would be one damn impressive strip mall
2) Well the R&W Welding that exists today generates revenues around 700,000 per year. The projects you were working on were a million total? that's all? And your bid process took more than 3 months? How?
3) Completion date is the same for everyone and set by the owner, hence, a non-factor in bid assessment. Unless of course you're a contractor foolish enough to tell the owner you won't be able to get the job done in the time alloted
4) I don't know anything about that job so I can't comment.
Here's the final deal:
1) My assertions are wrong when it comes to FEDERAL bids. The bid process is longer than I said, especially with the rising number of appeals. So I WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT.
2) I stand by my low bid comment. Low bid wins, unless there aren't enough bidders or the low bid is suspiciously low
3) In the private sector and at the state government level, the standard bid process from bid release to bid due date range from 60 - 90 days. This is the case for every single job I've seen.
Leon
March 27, 2008 - 20:30 ET by RESTLESS 1"So I WAS WRONG" - Leon.
You know I am keeping this for posterity don't you?
Bass
March 27, 2008 - 15:22 ET by RESTLESS 1Pay no attention to Leon. I don't do bidding, but I do know that in San Antonio, they put out bids to build a new hotel three or four times. It took 10 years or more to finally break ground. The bigger the contract and the more complex, the longer it is going to take.
link please
March 27, 2008 - 12:15 ET by candanceNo more anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see proof that it's impossible for a bid to take longer than six months.
Check out this article I found from the Washington Post claiming that the bidding process is so complex that projects are behind by a couple of years.
What say you?
Dan, That process takes 60
March 27, 2008 - 12:09 ET by LeonDan,
That process takes 60 - 90 days. Every time. You're making things up.
Low bid does not mean there will be corruption. Low bid always wins. You are so wrong about this it's shocking.
Man, you really don't know anything. I refuse to believe you work for the government. Otherwise, you would know how the bidding process works. You clearly don't have a clue.
LeonThat is just a
March 27, 2008 - 12:12 ET by bassndudeLeon
That is just a lie.
Low bid dosn't always win.
There are laws about bids in the goverment contract world.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
One of the classic....
March 27, 2008 - 10:05 ET by Prester John....contract scams was reported in the Wash Post (can't find the link) and involved a company that was to supply cargo trucks in Iraq. When it turned out that about 95% of the trucks didn't work the contractor replied, "Well, nowhere in the contract did it say that the trucks had to be OPERATIONAL. You wanted X number of trucks and that's exactly what we supplied."
Okay Leon
March 27, 2008 - 11:19 ET by candanceIf this company did indeed provide such horrid support (and their manager really did have that phone call) then it's time to cut their contract and maybe press charges.
I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement about that.
Ok Candance,That's one
March 27, 2008 - 11:25 ET by LeonOk Candance,
That's one corrupt contractor you've all finally agreed to acknowledge.
Now what about all the others you've been aggressively apologizing for over the past 5 years?
Let's start with KBR. Every week there's a new story about their corruption. Jacking up prices of towels by insisting their logos must be on them. Failing to inspect their facilities so that 12 soldiers have been killed due to faulty electrical installations. Avoiding paying social security taxes (essentially bilking the US government out of 100s of millions of dollars) by hiring their American employees through shell companies in the Caribbean.
The list goes on and on. And in the interest of defending your fearless boy king, the Newsbusters have apologized for this corruption for years. Time to stop.
Leon
March 27, 2008 - 11:32 ET by candanceIf anyone here has truly acted as an apologist for a bogus contractor, then that's not cool. Remember I've only been on here for about six months, and in my time being here have never noticed discussions about contractors come up.
Just because I support the war doesn't mean I think it's sunshine and lollipops or that no one over there can do any wrong. I'm sure there are some civilian companies taking advantage.
All I ask is that you pull reports from reliable sources. Maybe some of the problem is that reports of these things often come from lefty sources we don't trust. Can't say that for certainty, it's just a theory. But if you find reliable documentation (like above) of a bogus contractor, I'll be right behind you with the criticism.
What do you think about
March 27, 2008 - 08:55 ET by motherbeltWhat do you think about this nonsense? How much press coverage do you
expect this will get? What kind of penalities will these three receive?
The phrase of the day is "plausible deniability."
They will have to cover it; but they will play it as a "last-ditch attempt" to avert war (they were heroic!).
It will be just like fundraising: Donors get charged for making "illegal campaign contributions" but no Democrat ever gets charged with accepting them.
Treasonous, it's as simple as that.
March 27, 2008 - 08:58 ET by kdizzydazeAs my dad would say -- UFB (just UFB - he wouldn't actually say the entire phrase - I mean that).
Imagine if several Republicans went to discuss issues 'diplomatically' with Slobodan Milosevic just as the US was preparing to attack under Clintons so-called watch. You would still hear the MSM talking about the end of the Republican party today.
I believe Libs have always
March 27, 2008 - 09:01 ET by ConservativeRexI believe Libs have always complained about Conservatives taking junkets on the corporations dimes. I guess they have no complaints when a few of their own takes a junket on a tyrants dime.
And these numb-skulls have the audacity to call all Conservatives hypocrites!
There will be no negative press coverage, maybe with the exception of Fox News. I believe they should be detained by federal agents to discuss if they knew where the money came from and when did they know it. If this type of discussion fails to get any evidence, I suggest several rounds of water boarding, (just kidding about the water boarding, kind of).
heard this reported on
March 27, 2008 - 09:19 ET by jwm45heard this reported on Bloomberg radio this morning - no party affiliation mentioned of course....
I read this somewhere the
March 27, 2008 - 09:30 ET by motherbeltI read this somewhere the other day, and then this one today in WND
Top Obama adviser: NYC, Miami Jews 'the problem'
"New York City. Miami. We have a large vote – vote, here in favor of Israel. And no politician wants to run against it."
(Granted he never said "Jews"...but you do the math....)
If this had been one of John McCain's advisors or staffers, would the MSM be covering it?
Ya think??????
BTW Obama is giving his "Shared Prosperity" speech this AM.....I just heard Glenn Beck talking about it...hilarious....he had the Soviet National Anthem playing in the background..... ROFL
Well, that's funny now, but if he wins we won't be laughing.....
ack motherbelt!
March 27, 2008 - 11:14 ET by candanceI read that article this morning and was going to post it! You beat me to the punch!
Think this will phases Obama's supporters any? Yeah, and the sky will turn green tomorrow....
McCain?
March 27, 2008 - 09:56 ET by mattmWith more stuff like this I could actually end up poking out the chad for McCain...
And Hugo says that as if it
March 27, 2008 - 11:44 ET by motherbeltAnd Hugo says that as if it were a bad thing????
And Hugo says that as if it
March 27, 2008 - 11:44 ET by motherbeltAnd Hugo says that as if it were a bad thing????
Obama picks up "I Hate Israel" pop star endorsement
March 27, 2008 - 10:17 ET by Jack BauerNow I admit the following story doesn't mean Obama sought or agrees with this below mentioned nut...
but this is what happens when you run a campaign of utter vacuity, empty rhetoric of the most banal kind, and keep nuts like Rev. Wright-On on board to frame you...
Barack Obama has picked up another celebrity endorsement!
You gotta laugh your head off.
Jack, couple that wih the
March 27, 2008 - 11:43 ET by motherbeltJack, couple that wih the story I linked to just above you, and this could get verrrry interesting!!
Using the Hillary Clinton
March 27, 2008 - 11:55 ET by Jack BauerUsing the Hillary Clinton test, as far as a I know, Barack Obama is not an anti-Semite.
But he sure seems to have the Jew haters endorsement and vote locked up.
Shalom Barack.
Funniest...Spitzer...Headline...Ever.
March 27, 2008 - 10:22 ET by sarcasmoClick here, I just don't have the heart to give it away.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Only the Post.... Who
March 27, 2008 - 10:28 ET by JasonCOnly the Post....
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
My all time favorite, though...
March 27, 2008 - 10:31 ET by sarcasmoWas by Drudge. "Nice Cannes," for a pic of Kerry's daughter's transparent dress at the French film festival. That one still makes me chuckle -- and thank God he has no spoil-sport editor...
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Hillary under fire
March 27, 2008 - 10:32 ET by ricklailHere is a video of Hillary being under fire in Bosnia
If you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes.-Lewis Grizzard
OMG....Only
March 27, 2008 - 11:48 ET by motherbeltOMG....Only Boortz!
ROFL!!!
That video was originally...
March 27, 2008 - 13:54 ET by mvfreemanposted on you tube by barelypolitcal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc
Check out barelypolitical blog. They have other videos too.
Saw the Hillary vid linked to Fark yesterday.
And now, today's The Shrub
March 27, 2008 - 10:39 ET by Roger the ShrubberAnd now, today's The Shrub Report®:
Here's a nice update on those poor ol' innocent Democrat(ic)s who went to Iraq mentioned in the Open Thread topic-starter… In five years will we be reading about how Syria paid for Pelosi's visits?
It seems some people here are missing the true irony of the Spitzer story.
28 years ago today, Slowhand married Layla, who looked Wonderful Tonight…
A Fort Dix Terror Update…
Coming this fall on Fox: "Are you Smarter Than a Taliban"?
Forget all the woes in the world, the wars, the economy, the price of oil. Today is truly a day of mourning…
The Unfortunate Organizational Acronym of the Day.
Here's a nice update on those poor ol' innocent Democrat(ic)s who went to Iraq… In five years will we be reading about how Syria paid for Pelosi's visits?
A double whammy for Leon: A great story on zealotry from Leon's favorite website, LGF.
Today's Global Warming Update. It's been a tough time for all you Goreacles lately..
Jack Bauer reminded this Shrubber that there is not a harder field for a butch lesbian to break into than the economics department at UMass. Jackson lamented over the pain and suffering #21 must be feeling.
Living on a prayer…
Here's a FARC Update. Another feather in the cap of the Pro-Chavez camp.
Shocking news out of San Fransicko.
Today's Religion of Peace Update.
Your Scholar-Athlete of the Week…
And, finally, Obama '08 unveils their latest campaign poster.
Wow... that's really two in
March 27, 2008 - 12:51 ET by Jack BauerWow... that's really two in the eye for Spitzer.
It that a DOMANATRIX
Pepper Brooks: Usually you
March 27, 2008 - 13:50 ET by Roger the ShrubberPepper Brooks: Usually you pay double for that kind of action, Cotton.
...CNN picks her (front page), and we are to feel sorry for her?
March 27, 2008 - 14:18 ET by vrwc13...I am sorry, I am a compassionate conservative, but this?
From $70K to food bank, one family's struggle:
"Guerrero is estranged from her husband and raising her two young children. She's already burned through her savings to help make ends meet, and is drawing unemployment checks. She has had to take extreme measures to pay for her interest-only mortgage of $2,500 a month. In fact, her mother moved in with her to help pay the bills.
Guerrero even applied for food stamps, but was denied."
http://www.cnn.com/2...
I have six kids, not two, and a $1200 mortgage that includes principle, hers is interest only at $2500?
People must be using"new math" to do their finances these days.
update: oops, she may be Hispanic, does this make me "racist"?
v
The future has a way of arriving unannounced. - George Will
No sympathy here..
March 27, 2008 - 14:34 ET by mastersofdeceitI was just reading that also. Did you see she's a former Loan Processor? lol! By extension probably contributing to this mess ramming unqualified borrowers through.
Also Altadena is VERY expensive, looks like someone might have to move.
They've Had It
March 27, 2008 - 14:33 ET by EnDashEnDash The Saddam-paid trip by Bonior and his pals has already had its news coverage, small as it's been. I doubt we'll see much more in print than has already appeared. After all, they're not Republicans.
Penalities, Dems? None.
March 27, 2008 - 14:39 ET by msh1973Penalities, Dems? None.
NYT pranked by MY hometown. . .!
March 27, 2008 - 16:19 ET by tracheostomyCheney WA, actually. But close enough, and truly a proud day for all of us!
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=14289
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Ron Paul Blows $42,000 of Taxpayer $$$ in Mass Mailings
March 27, 2008 - 17:00 ET by TinianThe "fiscally conservative" proponent of "small government" sure knows how to waste taxpayer money:
Not to mention "fiscally conservative" and "small government" Ron Paul's penchant for pork:
Only cult followers could ignore these glaring inconsistencies.
As usual, read the full story, because...
March 27, 2008 - 20:14 ET by sarcasmoThe quoting's selective. Sekula-Gibbs mailpork, for a vanishingly short non term from Nov. 8, 2006, to Jan. 2, 2007 before she's replaced by a Democrat, as predicted? $183,000. But Ron Paul's the problem!! Yay!!!
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Leon The Uniter
March 27, 2008 - 18:07 ET by LeonAnother grueling day at the Newsbusters. Valiant keyboard
warriors fighting keystroke for keystroke. Trying with all their
might to cut their opponents down; to humiliate them in front of the
mob.
The sun is setting on another day so I suggest we take a moment to consider something we can ALL agree on:
Iron Man is going to be amazing.
Leon the Uniter!
March 27, 2008 - 20:01 ET by Roger the ShrubberLeon the Uniter:
These ARE a simple peoples that can only think in simple terms.
The people UNITED will
March 27, 2008 - 20:13 ET by Jack BauerThe people UNITED will never be defeated! We'll keep the red flag flying here.
Leon the Uniter Part 2
March 27, 2008 - 18:21 ET by LeonOne more thing I just thought of that every sane person in the world can enjoy.
Apparently, there's a group of weirdos whose sole purpose is to debunk Scientology (as if it needed debunking).
They claim that L. Ron Hubbard plagarized his religion. The original was written in 1934 by some German guy. Here's the original. Ha.
Take that Scientology! Now you're crazy and stupid!
Passport printing outsourced to Thailand. How stupid is this?
March 27, 2008 - 22:16 ET by R D HelmWho is the idiot that let this happen?
BTW-The company involved has already been victimized by Chinese espionage in the past.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
HD Helm, they got RIPPED OFF.
March 27, 2008 - 22:50 ET by upcountrywater"The passports are being assembled in Thailand by one company that was a victim of Chinese economic espionage."
What is that?
"One of the companies involved in passport production in Thailand,
Smartrac, charged in a court filing in the Netherlands last year that
its technology was stolen by China."
Who knows the way this world is going, the Chinaezze will offer the job for less!
What you want a bet, it's EZer to contain information over there.(Thailand)
No 1st amendment reporters vomiting man years of work for free.
<wake up>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
ucw,
March 27, 2008 - 23:07 ET by R D HelmMaybe so.
What bugs me is that so much of what we used to do here is being farmed out to other countries.
I mean, a couple of weeks ago it was Airbus getting the contract for aerial tankers. What will be next, having the Chicoms design our next generation stealth fighter? Having Russia design our next ICBM? Having Syrian military planners work up our future plans for the GWOT?
I don't know, this just doesn't seem right to me.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
HD, Yea that airbus thing SUCKED
March 27, 2008 - 23:33 ET by upcountrywaterjust keep it out of the mussizies and commie hands.
Hows that for bending over backwards!
Yea, like the Pamama canal, ( my grandfather worked in that) handed over to the CHICOMM s.
So we have some Taiwan issues. Guess what!! The main bearing just blew out in lock one, sorry it will be installed in a month! Come back then; Crap like that.
<wake up>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
Q. What do Italy, the Mafia, Garbage & Pizza all have in common?
March 27, 2008 - 22:43 ET by BritcomAaaant!! Wrong answer.
The correct answer is: "Fiasco"
To Wit:
Source: AP
---
Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"
Britcom, well, at least the Pecorino-Romano is safe.
March 27, 2008 - 23:14 ET by R D HelmAs it is the best grating cheese that ever came out of Italy. It beats Parmigiano-Reggiano all to heck.
Our pasta is safe. Thank God.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
Go UCLA!
March 27, 2008 - 22:42 ET by bigtimerGo UCLA!
you kidding BT?
March 27, 2008 - 23:20 ET by candanceYou gotta have a soft spot for the Hilltoppers, to come back from a double digit hole and have it this close, after everything else they've accomplished in the tournament.
And I don't like UCLA anyhow. :p
Evenin' cd... ...And I
March 27, 2008 - 23:28 ET by bigtimerEvenin' cd...
...And I don't like UCLA anyhow. :p
I would of never guessed... LOL!
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
hatin on UCLA
March 27, 2008 - 23:31 ET by candanceIf they lose tonight or the in the Elite Eight, UNC can overtake them as having more Final Four apppearances.
And considering this is UCLA's second close call in a row, it makes you wonder how much further they can go.
Hey cd... I know
March 27, 2008 - 23:38 ET by bigtimerHey cd...
I know logically you are correct with your summation of what should/will happen...but sometimes wonders never cease to amaze...
..or something like that...
Got to grin now and then in my life...either way.
Btw...I give all young men participating in all of the games great credit....every year I get to catch some of this.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
How Religion Became a Wedge Issue
March 28, 2008 - 02:05 ET by BritcomSource: First Things / R.R. Reno
h/t TownHall.com
---
Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"?
Fitting Political Cartoon
March 28, 2008 - 03:18 ET by BritcomCartoon >>
---
Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"
Cartoon
March 28, 2008 - 03:32 ET by gfrrocksis pretty good with the dichotomy of begging and dissing...LOL.
And the answer to your question is,....."it depends on what your definition of "is" is". Boy what an ass. Gotta go to zzzzzz-time.
Latre'
G
Colombia captures Uranium from FARC
March 28, 2008 - 06:42 ET by Britcom---
Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"
Hugo is going to be chapped
March 28, 2008 - 15:28 ET by general company"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Iraqi Bloggers Respond
March 28, 2008 - 12:19 ET by Leonto Bush's insane comment that the escalating violence in Basra is is a 'positive moment'.
Here's a excerpt. They don't seem to like us too much in Basra:
Udpate: The American war criminal Bush whose death squad in uniform called the U.S. armed forces are still trying to subjugate Irak and who have murdered innumerable Iraki Children women and men calls the carnage a “positive moment” you can read what he has to say for himself to the UK Times newspaper here. Tahseen al-Sheikhli one of the two main spokesmen for the “surge” was unavailable for comment because he has been kidnapped.
I just find it interesting to see what Iraqis have to say about us. Obviously emotions are running high in Basra, but this type of hatred towards us isn't going to help us win.
The Basra situation is certainly not good. While I think the surge worked while it was in place, it's simply not sutainable. Are we beginning to see a descent back into chaos and violence in Iraq? I hope not, but it's starting to look that way.
Leon
March 28, 2008 - 15:16 ET by RESTLESS 1You should have put it in perspective. What Bush said is that the Iraqis taking control of the outbreak of violence in Basra, instigated by "criminal forces" was a positive sign. Honestly, don't you think the rest of us can read? Oh, and that "gorilla" whatever link looks more like an Iraqi dKos. Not taking that one seriously.
That depends on what your definition of "win" is.
March 28, 2008 - 16:26 ET by BritcomThe pentagon's mission isn't to "win" the hearts of the enemy (that is a pipe dream) it is to defeat the enemy and eliminate his ability to fight. Since the enemy uses guerrilla and terrorist tactics that severely endanger his own civilians, it is the enemy's fault that collateral damage kills his human shields (civilians). The enemy should come out from behind his human shields and fight us like men, or they should stand down and use the political system to address their grievances. That would be the civilized thing to do, assuming that they can act civilized, which I probably shouldn't assume.
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Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"